Brexit Referendum

[Colr]

I can't grasp why the media think Boris will persuade people to vote out. What a self serving twat he is.

The biggest risk is people ( and espcially the young who are more keen on staying in) not turning out.

[Northernhibee]

Probably putting the cat amongst the pigeons here but I'm not voting in it. I'd prefer us to stay in the EU but the separatists are desperate to make a Scottish "remain" vote a vote for indyref 2. I have no interest in taking part in the erosion of democracy in Scotland.

[PeeJay]

Probably putting the cat amongst the pigeons here but I'm not voting in it. I'd prefer us to stay in the EU but the separatists are desperate to make a Scottish "remain" vote a vote for indyref 2. I have no interest in taking part in the erosion of democracy in Scotland.

Don't you think that by "not voting" you are effectively contributing to the erosion of democracy? :confused:

[Northernhibee]

Don't you think that by "not voting" you are effectively contributing to the erosion of democracy? :confused:

No, we all voted as part of the Edinburgh agreement that the referendum was "once in a generation" and we also can safely say a yes vote would have seen us outside the EU. Cue a u-turn on both of those counts and now the EU referendum in Scotland is a pathetic smokescreen that is a kick in the teeth to Scottish voters and Scottish democracy.

[Colr]

No, we all voted as part of the Edinburgh agreement that the referendum was "once in a generation" and we also can safely say a yes vote would have seen us outside the EU. Cue a u-turn on both of those counts and now the EU referendum in Scotland is a pathetic smokescreen that is a kick in the teeth to Scottish voters and Scottish democracy.

If Scotland votes in and the UK votes out, I cannot see any other outcome than another indy ref. I'm not in favour of independence but in this instance I would support it. Scotland is too small to be isolated economically with England.

Previously, I didn't like the idea of having to apply for a Scottish passport (i.e. to apply to be Scottish) but in that eventuality I would be happy to apply for dull citizenship to get a Euro passport.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I can't grasp why the media think Boris will persuade people to vote out. What a self serving twat he is.

The biggest risk is people ( and espcially the young who are more keen on staying in) not turning out.

I'm not a big fan of Boris either but he's generally quite popular down south and I disagree that he won't persuade anyone to vote leave. I think he's just as likely to influence voters as any other politician.

What he was saying about Obama being hypocritical if he says we should remain was true as as well.

[Colr]

I'm not a big fan of Boris either but he's generally quite popular down south and I disagree that he won't persuade anyone to vote leave. I think he's just as likely to influence voters as any other politician.

What he was saying about Obama being hypocritical if he says we should remain was true as as well.

He has a good political antenna but no grasp of detail at all. I suspect he will get found out. I personally think he is an example of the self-serving British elite in whom I would not entrust more power. Europe acts as a break on their aim of acquiring as many of the country's assets for themselves as is possible.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

He has a good political antenna but no grasp of detail at all. I suspect he will get found out. I personally think he is an example of the self-serving British elite in whom I would not entrust more power. Europe acts as a break on their aim of acquiring as many of the country's assets for themselves as is possible.

What is the last sentence based on? Not trying to be argumentative but I really don't see any logic to it.

As for self-serving Brittish elite, not disagreeing with that, as I said I'm not a big fan of Boris. But then you have Cameron and Osbourne leading the remain campaign...

[Future17]

No, we all voted as part of the Edinburgh agreement that the referendum was "once in a generation" and we also can safely say a yes vote would have seen us outside the EU. Cue a u-turn on both of those counts and now the EU referendum in Scotland is a pathetic smokescreen that is a kick in the teeth to Scottish voters and Scottish democracy.

I don't think the Edinburgh Agreement said anything of the sort, did it? :confused:

[Peevemor]

I don't think the Edinburgh Agreement said anything of the sort, did it? :confused:
The "once in a generation" thing was said once by Salmond in one interview - that's all. However, I remember seeing it reported that Brexit could trigger a second indyref - in accordance with the Edinburgh Agreement.

Envoyé de mon Paris en utilisant Tapatalk

[AndyM_1875]

He has a good political antenna but no grasp of detail at all. I suspect he will get found out. I personally think he is an example of the self-serving British elite in whom I would not entrust more power. Europe acts as a break on their aim of acquiring as many of the country's assets for themselves as is possible.

Our own Irvine Welsh has just called Boris "the Poundstretcher Trump" over the weekend.... :LOL::rotflmao:

[GlesgaeHibby]

No, we all voted as part of the Edinburgh agreement that the referendum was "once in a generation" and we also can safely say a yes vote would have seen us outside the EU. Cue a u-turn on both of those counts and now the EU referendum in Scotland is a pathetic smokescreen that is a kick in the teeth to Scottish voters and Scottish democracy.

Wasn't in the Edinburgh agreement, was referred to a such by the SNP.

The No campaign promised that the only way to secure our EU membership was to vote No. If we do leave the EU, it makes a mockery of that claim from the Better Together camp.

[steakbake]

Wasn't in the Edinburgh agreement, was referred to a such by the SNP.

The No campaign promised that the only way to secure our EU membership was to vote No. If we do leave the EU, it makes a mockery of that claim from the Better Together camp.

I think all this 'once in a generation' stuff is a bit over inflated on either side. You ask the people when the people need to be asked, regardless of the timing.

Basically, I have no idea why politicians might want to take a significant question off the agenda when the basis for it could change in a short period of time.

Scotland being pulled out of the EU in circumstances where a majority of people here vote against that would to my mind, significantly change the basis of our constitutional set-up.

After being informed that it is absolutely critical to be a part of the EU and all the well-rehearsed arguments we heard during the Scottish referendum on the difficulties of an i-Scotland entering the EU from the outside, to find ourselves on the outside by others' hands couldn't possibly be just 'one of those things' that we all just sigh "ah well, better together etc..." and just get on with it.

That said, I'm hoping for a very strong Remain vote. But if we leave, I'd be amazed if some of the characters being quiet about discussing hypothetical situations would sit on the fence for too much longer. Even some of the hardest pro-Union types might be pushed to admit the game is up and we'd need to find a new way.

Voting out would change many, many things and it's not a stretch or obsession to say that it would fundamentally change the dynamic of the UK to such a point that another referendum on how to respond to such dramatic a change would be absolutely necessary.

[Hibbyradge]

Whether it's 100% accurate or not, here's why Remain will win.

http://s3.postimg.org/q7syn2lbn/4300.jpg

[Hibrandenburg]

Whether it's 100% accurate or not, here's why Remain will win.

http://s3.postimg.org/q7syn2lbn/4300.jpg

The same twisting of facts that kept us in the Union. It might cost the country £4300 per person if we leave but it certainly won't cost each individual that much. Personally I couldn't care less anymore, it's not worth getting worked up about something I have no influence over even if I'm directly effected by it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Whether it's 100% accurate or not, here's why Remain will win.

http://s3.postimg.org/q7syn2lbn/4300.jpg

Just remember the RemaIN campaign is very similar to the Better Together campaign in that is all about the fear, no trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36073201


Mr Osborne said the smaller size of the economy projected in the report was the equivalent of £4,300 per household.

Too late, I see the Germans got to the sun loungers first http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/winky.gif (javascript:void(0))

[pacoluna]

Those who used project fear During the indyref are now accusing the opposition in Brexit of "scaremongering" You couldn't make it up. The amount of hypocrisy within politics is despairing..

[steakbake]

Those who used project fear During the indyref are now accusing the opposition in Brexit of "scaremongering" You couldn't make it up. The amount of hypocrisy within politics is despairing..

I think you've set your hopes too high!

The amount of hypocrisy within politics is entirely predictable.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

You don't even need to see the maths to know the £4.3k is BS. The uncertainty in anything projected to 2030 is massive, especially something with so many variables. Any economist worth their salt would have released a range of numbers and it would have been too large to be meaningful.

This sums up what was wrong with the Scottish referendum, this referendum, and politics in general - you have politicians on both sides telling you lies and you don't believe either of them. It's the reason why people are beginning to vote against mainstream politics, whether it's SNP/UKIP in the last election or Lib Dems the election before.

[Just Alf]

Wasn't in the Edinburgh agreement, was referred to a such by the SNP.

The No campaign promised that the only way to secure our EU membership was to vote No. If we do leave the EU, it makes a mockery of that claim from the Better Together camp.
The once in a generation was specifically a quote by Salmond.... any time I've seen it mentioned since... newsnight etc etc it's always raised by a non SNP person 1st.

And to be fair. I think it IS a once in generation event UNLESS something major happens to impact public opinion... the Euro vote being an example assuming Scotland votes the total opposite to the UK.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

You don't even need to see the maths to know the £4.3k is BS. The uncertainty in anything projected to 2030 is massive, especially something with so many variables. Any economist worth their salt would have released a range of numbers and it would have been too large to be meaningful. This sums up what was wrong with the Scottish referendum, this referendum, and politics in general - you have politicians on both sides telling you lies and you don't believe either of them. It's the reason why people are beginning to vote against mainstream politics, whether it's SNP/UKIP in the last election or Lib Dems the election before.

Very true...considering the revision on GDP figures in the last budget, a period of something like 6 months to even suggest any of these figures (gain, loss, remain, stay) has any credence at all on a projection to 2030 is just nonsense.

[southfieldhibby]

I'm not going to vote. I hope remain wins but I just can't bring myself to vote the same way of endorse the propaganda offered by george Osborne. He's an absolute wrong un and I'll not back him in any way.

The most untrustworthy politician in the uk IMO

[Hibbyradge]

It's the reason why people are beginning to vote against mainstream politics, whether it's SNP/UKIP in the last election or Lib Dems the election before.

I agree with most of your comments, but SNP are about as mainstream as it gets and they have been for many years.

It doesn't matter if the £4300 figure is accurate or just plucked out of the air.

Most people don't care enough about leaving the EU to take the risk that it is.

I hope.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just like the Sottish Referendum, it is difficult to get facts. One side says one thing the other respond with the opposite.

Just like the Sottish Referendum, The Hunter Foundation has produced an impartial guide

http://www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk/britains-decision/

[marinello59]

Just like the Sottish Referendum, it is difficult to get facts. One side says one thing the other respond with the opposite.

Just like the Sottish Referendum, The Hunter Foundation has produced an impartial guide

http://www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk/britains-decision/

Jist like the Scottish referundum it really isn't difficult to get the facts. One side gives their opinion and spin based on them and the other side gives theirs. :greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

I think all this 'once in a generation' stuff is a bit over inflated on either side. You ask the people when the people need to be asked, regardless of the timing.

Basically, I have no idea why politicians might want to take a significant question off the agenda when the basis for it could change in a short period of time.

Scotland being pulled out of the EU in circumstances where a majority of people here vote against that would to my mind, significantly change the basis of our constitutional set-up.

After being informed that it is absolutely critical to be a part of the EU and all the well-rehearsed arguments we heard during the Scottish referendum on the difficulties of an i-Scotland entering the EU from the outside, to find ourselves on the outside by others' hands couldn't possibly be just 'one of those things' that we all just sigh "ah well, better together etc..." and just get on with it.

That said, I'm hoping for a very strong Remain vote. But if we leave, I'd be amazed if some of the characters being quiet about discussing hypothetical situations would sit on the fence for too much longer. Even some of the hardest pro-Union types might be pushed to admit the game is up and we'd need to find a new way.

Voting out would change many, many things and it's not a stretch or obsession to say that it would fundamentally change the dynamic of the UK to such a point that another referendum on how to respond to such dramatic a change would be absolutely necessary.

Agree, and likewise I'm hoping for a strong remain vote across the entire UK, not just Scotland.

[AndyM_1875]

I'm not going to vote. I hope remain wins but I just can't bring myself to vote the same way of endorse the propaganda offered by george Osborne. He's an absolute wrong un and I'll not back him in any way.

The most untrustworthy politician in the uk IMO

This isn't a referendum which is about voting for a bright new future. It's about choosing the least bad option. There are lots of things about the EU I don't like but I'd rather be in it with a chance to influence things and reform, than a pointless wee irritant on the fringe that nobody listens to.

Osbourne is appalling I agree but he's actually got this right. The Remain camp is loosely made up of the Government, the Labour party, the SNP, the Liberal Democrats and most of the business community, the public sector, the science sector, the Agricultural and Health sectors for starters.

The alternative which is a campaign made up of the worst sort of elitists (Boris, Farage, Gove), racists, xenophobes, disaffected Labour never will be's, and the truly desperate (Galloway), selling a vision for a little Britain that is incoherent, economic madness with no set plan.

[bawheid]

The ridiculous thing is that Cameron and Osborne got us into this mess in the first place. They promised the referendum due to supposed pressure to their right from UKIP and to appease some weirdo Tory backbenchers who were thinking of defecting. They then marched around Europe pretending to "negotiate" with a series of confused European PMs to try and get Britain a "better deal". It was all a sham and he must think the electorate are daft.

Having gone around Europe threatening everyone with the fact we'll leave if we don't get what we want ("I'm not ruling anything out"), they're now back marching around Britain scaring everyone into voting Remain. Apparently the sky will fall in if we leave the EU. Well he wasn't saying that a few short months ago!

He's an idiot, playing with fire. Hopefully most folk can see that but still vote to Remain.

[steakbake]

Agree, and likewise I'm hoping for a strong remain vote across the entire UK, not just Scotland.

I wonder what'd happen if England generally voted out and Scotland's Remain votes kept the UK in. If it's close, then a stronger Remain vote here might carry it.

[AndyM_1875]

After a Boris Johnson's fairly disastrous language this morning towards President Obama and the President's blunt message at the Press Conference withCameron today of "back of the queue", I'm thinking the Leave camp is holed below the waterline. Dog whistle racism does not go down well ever and Obama is popular in the UK.

[RyeSloan]

After a Boris Johnson's fairly disastrous language this morning towards President Obama and the President's blunt message at the Press Conference withCameron today of "back of the queue", I'm thinking the Leave camp is holed below the waterline. Dog whistle racism does not go down well ever and Obama is popular in the UK.

There are some very sound reasons that could be argued to support an EU exit but you sure as hell ain't hearing them from Boris and Nige.

I've managed to avoid most of the noise and maybe it's just me but there seems to be an undertone of aggression in the Brexit campaign that is somewhat off putting.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

After a Boris Johnson's fairly disastrous language this morning towards President Obama and the President's blunt message at the Press Conference withCameron today of "back of the queue", I'm thinking the Leave camp is holed below the waterline. Dog whistle racism does not go down well ever and Obama is popular in the UK.

Agree, it was a really stupid and unnecessary comment for Boris to make. Calling Obama a hypocrite was a powerful argument in itself so there's no need to take it further. Even if his racist slur was true, it's irrelevant to the Brexit argument. Boris is usually quite switched on about what he can get away with and I'm surprised he didn't have the foresight to see this being an issue. I'm I right in saying its something he wrote in a newspaper column? If so, that makes it even more stupid as he had time to plan his message.

[steakbake]

After a Boris Johnson's fairly disastrous language this morning towards President Obama and the President's blunt message at the Press Conference withCameron today of "back of the queue", I'm thinking the Leave camp is holed below the waterline. Dog whistle racism does not go down well ever and Obama is popular in the UK.

Hopefully so...

[Hibbyradge]

Agree, it was a really stupid and unnecessary comment for Boris to make. Calling Obama a hypocrite was a powerful argument in itself so there's no need to take it further.

I agree with most of your comments, but I'm not convinced that calling him a hypocrite was powerful at all.

Hypocrisy suggests saying one thing, but doing another. I can't think of anything Obama has done to earn such a slur.

Even if there was any evidence of hypocrisy, that doesn't mean that Obama isn't correct.

There are thousands of alcohol dependent doctors and medical practitioners who will advise you to cut down on the bevvy. They're technically hypocrites, but their advice is still sound.

[Hibbyradge]

I agree with most of your comments, but I'm not convinced that calling him a hypocrite was powerful at all.

Hypocrisy suggests saying one thing, but doing another. I can't think of anything Obama has done to earn such a slur.

Even if there was any evidence of hypocrisy, that doesn't mean that Obama isn't correct.

There are thousands of alcohol dependent doctors and medical practitioners who will advise you to cut down on the bevvy. They're technically hypocrites, but their advice is still sound.

This excellent article deals with the subject well, and also debunks the "hypocrite" allegation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-crush-brexit-fantasy-eu-referendum?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H&utm_term=168703&subid=16631905&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[steakbake]

This excellent article deals with the subject well, and also debunks the "hypocrite" allegation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-crush-brexit-fantasy-eu-referendum?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H&utm_term=168703&subid=16631905&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Good article. I've never understood Johnson's appeal. He's got a following of people who think he's a good old fashioned British eccentric. They wouldn't be laughing if he was PM. Good job he seems to be making a hash of it.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I agree with most of your comments, but I'm not convinced that calling him a hypocrite was powerful at all.

Hypocrisy suggests saying one thing, but doing another. I can't think of anything Obama has done to earn such a slur.

Even if there was any evidence of hypocrisy, that doesn't mean that Obama isn't correct.

There are thousands of alcohol dependent doctors and medical practitioners who will advise you to cut down on the bevvy. They're technically hypocrites, but their advice is still sound.

It's not so much Obama personally but the idea of 'America' telling us we should give up some of our power when they would never consider doing so themselves.

An argument for staying in the EU is short-term stability, which suits the democrats in the build up to the next election. If Brexit triggers economic uncertainty, short term or otherwise, then it gives the republicans another angle of attack. Obama is for Remain because it suits his party, not because he believes in sharing democracy. IMO of course.

[Hibbyradge]

It's not so much Obama personally but the idea of 'America' telling us we should give up some of our power when they would never consider doing so themselves.

An argument for staying in the EU is short-term stability, which suits the democrats in the build up to the next election. If Brexit triggers economic uncertainty, short term or otherwise, then it gives the republicans another angle of attack. Obama is for Remain because it suits his party, not because he believes in sharing democracy. IMO of course.

As far as I can see, no one is telling anyone to give up their power. In fact, no one is telling anyone to do anything.

They're pointing out what the status quo gives us and what we'd lose if we give it up.

Read the Guardian article to put the hypocrisy stuff into context.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

As far as I can see, no one is telling anyone to give up their power. In fact, no one is telling anyone to do anything.

They're pointing out what the status quo gives us and what we'd lose if we give it up.

Read the Guardian article to put the hypocrisy stuff into context.

The article makes some decent points although is very one-sided and I do find the British media are a bit star struck by Obama. If Bush was president and said exactly the same thing then it would have had a very different write up. I like Obama myself, but I still think his main motive is short term stability before the next US election and not what's best for Britain.

[TheReg!]

I think the polls are terribly wrong, just like they were during the general election, it's gonna be a out vote by more than 55% IMHO, I've lived in every part of the U.K and keep in touch with lots of old friends via social media etc and it's a clear out from what I read and see tbh.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the polls are terribly wrong, just like they were during the general election, it's gonna be a out vote by more than 55% IMHO, I've lived in every part of the U.K and keep in touch with lots of old friends via social media etc and it's a clear out from what I read and see tbh.

I was of the same opinion for the same reasons regarding a yes vote in the referendum. I just think there's more passion being shown by those who want out than those who don't.

[HappyAsHellas]

I think the main reason for Obama's visit was to try and ensure the easiest passage for TTIP which will be easier with the UK still in the EU. Brexit is nothing compared to this vile assault on democracy. Let's tell the US where to go with this one.

[mmmmhibby]

I think the polls are terribly wrong, just like they were during the general election, it's gonna be a out vote by more than 55% IMHO, I've lived in every part of the U.K and keep in touch with lots of old friends via social media etc and it's a clear out from what I read and see tbh.

Its gonna be a close call. Be interesting to see how Scotland votes. I'd hedge a small bet on leave(the whole UK) at 7/4, incidentally the leave price was 9/2 a year ago.

[Future17]

I think the polls are terribly wrong, just like they were during the general election, it's gonna be a out vote by more than 55% IMHO, I've lived in every part of the U.K and keep in touch with lots of old friends via social media etc and it's a clear out from what I read and see tbh.

If you conducted a poll of my mates from across Scotland prior to the IndyRef, it would have been a 75% Yes vote.

On the whole, people will inevitably collect a majority of friends who share their views on most things. This will be no different.

[TheReg!]

If you conducted a poll of my mates from across Scotland prior to the IndyRef, it would have been a 75% Yes vote.

On the whole, people will inevitably collect a majority of friends who share their views on most things. This will be no different.

I hear you but the majority of my Edinburgh mates voted for independence, these same people now want us to leav the EU.

[easty]

I hear you but the majority of my Edinburgh mates voted for independence, these same people now want us to leav the EU.

Most of my friends voted for independence, and I don't know of any of them who will be voting to leave the EU.

[easty]

If you conducted a poll of my mates from across Scotland prior to the IndyRef, it would have been a 75% Yes vote.

On the whole, people will inevitably collect a majority of friends who share their views on most things. This will be no different.

It would have been way more the 75% Yes with my friends/family.

[AndyM_1875]

I hear you but the majority of my Edinburgh mates voted for independence, these same people now want us to leav the EU.

The debate in Scotland won't start properly till May 9.
Then you will see the Scottish Government (SNP), Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Tories, Lib Dems and Greens all pushing for a Remain Vote. The economics of Leave simply don't work, the risks are too high and uncertain. Also Boris's dog whistle racism last Friday won't be forgotten or forgiven, least of all by his own party where he is being both ridiculed and shamed by existing Tory MPs including old grandees like Nicholas Soames (Churchill's grandson). Says a lot when the only guy standing up to defend you is Nigel bloody Farage.

The only high profile Out voices of any note in Scotland will be David Coburn and Jim Sillars and after the way Coburn was absolutely ripped apart by STV's Bernard Ponsonby, I can't see the Leave vote being high at all in Scotland.

[steakbake]

Thing is, we live in echo chambers. I was convinced in the referendum that Yes was far more popular than the polls were predicting. However, amongst my friends and people I know, they were almost entirely Yes voters, with one or two No. At work on the other hand, it was just me and one other person out of a team of around 40 who were Yes.

I would think that it's hard to know. I am concerned that the polls might understate Leave, like they generally understate the Tories because of the stigma (haha!). Leave's campaign has been pretty useless to be honest so I sometimes swing between being worried that Leave is underestimated and being consoled that it's likely over-estimated.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I was of the same opinion for the same reasons regarding a yes vote in the referendum. I just think there's more passion being shown by those who want out than those who don't.

Agree with this. A lot of Remain campaigners begin by saying "I know it's a bit **** but...". Some truth in it but still not the most inspiring pep talk. I guess it's always more difficult to feel pationate about the status quo, especially if you view it as a necessary evil, which I think most Remain people do.

[Hibbyradge]

I think remain will win with a very large majority.

The leave campaign have no persuasive economic arguments and their figureheads are all roasters.

[Hibbyradge]

http://click.mail.theguardian.com/?qs=b7ee0daa94f1779065214c5e935f3f01b993c3eb4c12f8 2ab46487cb9fc75e54

[grunt]

The economics of Leave simply don't work, the risks are too high and uncertain. .Thought for a second you were talking about a different referendum there.

[AndyM_1875]

Thought for a second you were talking about a different referendum there.

I'm long past that Referendum, ancient history.:wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

I think remain will win with a very large majority.

The leave campaign have no persuasive economic arguments and their figureheads are all roasters.

This is a great shame. I'm pro-European at heart but I can't help but feel there is a good leftist case for Brexit based on what the ******* have done to Greece and that the EU needs a right good kick in the nads to focus on actually doing what its citizens want. Unfortunately, nobody's making it.

[Future17]

I hear you but the majority of my Edinburgh mates voted for independence, these same people now want us to leav the EU.

I'm surprised by that - have they given any specific reasons (if you don't mind me asking)?

[mmmmhibby]

I hear you but the majority of my Edinburgh mates voted for independence, these same people now want us to leav the EU.

That's the same wi 90% of ma mates, most of them want out EU.

[mmmmhibby]

The debate in Scotland won't start properly till May 9.
Then you will see the Scottish Government (SNP), Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Tories, Lib Dems and Greens all pushing for a Remain Vote. The economics of Leave simply don't work, the risks are too high and uncertain. Also Boris's dog whistle racism last Friday won't be forgotten or forgiven, least of all by his own party where he is being both ridiculed and shamed by existing Tory MPs including old grandees like Nicholas Soames (Churchill's grandson). Says a lot when the only guy standing up to defend you is Nigel bloody Farage.

The only high profile Out voices of any note in Scotland will be David Coburn and Jim Sillars and after the way Coburn was absolutely ripped apart by STV's Bernard Ponsonby, I can't see the Leave vote being high at all in Scotland.

Interest read, sheds more light on Economics.

http://www.cityam.com/239663/brexit-myths-debunked-the-leave-campaign-shouldnt-fear-arguing-that-leaving-the-eu-would-be-good-for-the-economy

[RyeSloan]

Interest read, sheds more light on Economics. http://www.cityam.com/239663/brexit-myths-debunked-the-leave-campaign-shouldnt-fear-arguing-that-leaving-the-eu-would-be-good-for-the-economy

Good article but as I've said all along the wrong people are leading the Brexit campaign for the wrong reasons. It's a shame as there are many good arguments for leaving (just as there is for remaining I suppose) but they are simply not being aired or getting any oxygen because of Farage and his ilk.

[Colr]

Good article but as I've said all along the wrong people are leading the Brexit campaign for the wrong reasons. It's a shame as there are many good arguments for leaving (just as there is for remaining I suppose) but they are simply not being aired or getting any oxygen because of Farage and his ilk.

... and Boris making a right twat out of himself over Obama.

[RyeSloan]

... and Boris making a right twat out of himself over Obama.

Too true, talk about letting the mask slip...

[steakbake]

Too true, talk about letting the mask slip...

He's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

He's dangerous. Theresa May made her move the other day.

Guaranteed that whatever the result of the referendum, things are going to take a turn to the right. I'd be surprised if Cameron lasts the summer.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

He's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

He's dangerous. Theresa May made her move the other day.

Guaranteed that whatever the result of the referendum, things are going to take a turn to the right. I'd be surprised if Cameron lasts the summer.

If Brexit win then Cameron's position is untenable and he would strongly consider resigning within the week. If it's a Remain vote he'll claim it as a victory and step down just before the next election.

Re Boris' quote, I always thought he was too politically astute to 'let it slip', especially given it was something he wrote and not a live interview. He should have just called Obama a hypocrite and left it at that. The point about Obama's Kenyan heritage not only made Boris look like a cock, it's irrelevant to the EU debate.

[steakbake]

If Brexit win then Cameron's position is untenable and he would strongly consider resigning within the week. If it's a Remain vote he'll claim it as a victory and step down just before the next election.

Re Boris' quote, I always thought he was too politically astute to 'let it slip', especially given it was something he wrote and not a live interview. He should have just called Obama a hypocrite and left it at that. The point about Obama's Kenyan heritage not only made Boris look like a cock, it's irrelevant to the EU debate.

Just can't see him holding on. They're making a total hunt of things and I think if Brexit lose, then they'll turn the daggers on Cameron. He's a dead man walking.

[RyeSloan]

Just can't see him holding on. They're making a total hunt of things and I think if Brexit lose, then they'll turn the daggers on Cameron. He's a dead man walking.

I don't think so. You might see a segment of the defeated Brexit crew heading off to UKIP or the like but expect the rump to return to the fold, unless of course they plan to take the SNP route and start plotting another ref as soon as they lose this one... ;-)

[steakbake]

I don't think so. You might see a segment of the defeated Brexit crew heading off to UKIP or the like but expect the rump to return to the fold, unless of course they plan to take the SNP route and start plotting another ref as soon as they lose this one... ;-)

Hahaha - yeah. I haven't heard the golden "once in a generation" phrase used yet, but there's a few weeks to go...

[(((Fergus)))]

... and Boris making a right twat out of himself over Obama.

Agreed, but Obama is bitter and twisted about something, even if it's not Kenya. So manipulative and treacherous.

[steakbake]

Agreed, but Obama is bitter and twisted about something, even if it's not Kenya. So manipulative and treacherous.

He's the elected President of the US - of course he's both these things. On the scale of it, he's not quite as manipulative or treacherous as his predecessor and certainly nowhere near being those as either of his likely replacements. But his view on the EU is driven by political expediency in the US and hardly a matter of bitter personal preference. He didn't come to ruin the Brexit peoples' party though he's certainly caused a few masks to slip.

I wonder what the bill will be for coming to talk on the subject? Because it's hardly as if he's doing it because Cameron asked - though that's probably what Dave thinks: the 'special relationship'. Boots on the ground somewhere? Defence contract? Guaranteed of renewal of Trident? Maybe he's afraid of the potential competition from a far less regulated, English speaking, Brexited large economy on the other side of the Atlantic and right on the doorstep of the EU?

I'd think twice about having a bust of Churchill too - a successful wartime PM he may have been, but he carefully cultivated that image. It's almost like people believe he did it by solo effort. Other than that, he was a colonialist - which you don't need to be Kenyan or otherwise to feel reviled by - he was anti- womens' equality, anti trade union and resisted workers rights. A figurehead and great speaker perhaps, but hardly a wonderful person.

[mmmmhibby]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/13/the-eu-is-holding-our-economy-back--and-brexit-could-set-it-free/


Vote Leave!!!

[Beefster]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/13/the-eu-is-holding-our-economy-back--and-brexit-could-set-it-free/


Vote Leave!!!

The IMF disagree. The question is who you should believe - the IMF or this trumpet?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/08/article-2185322-1453AD23000005DC-81_306x423.jpg

[xyz23jc]

The IMF disagree. The question is who you should believe - the IMF or this trumpet?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/08/article-2185322-1453AD23000005DC-81_306x423.jpg

Jesus wept! That Eddie the Eagle's let himself go, eh? :greengrin

[mmmmhibby]

The IMF disagree. The question is who you should believe - the IMF or this trumpet?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/08/article-2185322-1453AD23000005DC-81_306x423.jpg

The same IMF that championed us joining the Euro, the IMF's credibility is already shot, reigned in by Dodgy Dave and the buffoon brigade to spin us yet more poppycock.......I am all for Europe, but the EU as an institution is anti-democracy and pro-big corps.....you see on a daily basis career politicians spout gibberish in fear that a BREXIT will hinder any chance of a £300k a year no-mark lobbying position complete with a hefty pension, 2nd home expenses, private healthcare, chauffeur driven cars etc etc. This EU project is not about the people, its not for democracy, it PRO big corporation....TTIP being a classic recent example.

[Rasta_Hibs]

The same IMF that championed us joining the Euro, the IMF's credibility is already shot, reigned in by Dodgy Dave and the buffoon brigade to spin us yet more poppycock.......I am all for Europe, but the EU as an institution is anti-democracy and pro-big corps.....you see on a daily basis career politicians spout gibberish in fear that a BREXIT will hinder any chance of a £300k a year no-mark lobbying position complete with a hefty pension, 2nd home expenses, private healthcare, chauffeur driven cars etc etc. This EU project is not about the people, its not for democracy, it PRO big corporation....TTIP being a classic recent example.

Best post on the subject so far!

[easty]

pro-big corps.....you see on a daily basis career politicians spout gibberish in fear that a BREXIT will hinder any chance of a £300k a year no-mark lobbying position complete with a hefty pension, 2nd home expenses, private healthcare, chauffeur driven cars etc etc. This EU project is not about the people, its not for democracy, it PRO big corporation....TTIP being a classic recent example.

Is any of that likely to change if we vote to leave?

[steakbake]

Is any of that likely to change if we vote to leave?

I reckon it'd get worse. We'd be even more of a casino economy, propped up by subsidised low wages, very little protection... and Theresa May instating the Magna Carta instead of proper human rights laws.

As much as some of the leaders of the In Campaign are cretinous, untrustworthy bar-stewards, just looking at who is fronting up the Brexit argument tells you all you need to know.

[easty]

I reckon it'd get worse. We'd be even more of a casino economy, propped up by subsidised low wages, very little protection... and Theresa May instating the Magna Carta instead of proper human rights laws.

As much as some of the leaders of the In Campaign are cretinous, untrustworthy bar-stewards, just looking at who is fronting up the Brexit argument tells you all you need to know.

That's what I think too.

[mmmmhibby]

I reckon it'd get worse. We'd be even more of a casino economy, propped up by subsidised low wages, very little protection... and Theresa May instating the Magna Carta instead of proper human rights laws.

As much as some of the leaders of the In Campaign are cretinous, untrustworthy bar-stewards, just looking at who is fronting up the Brexit argument tells you all you need to know.

Being the 5th biggest econonomy on the planet, i'd like to think we would actually grow our economy. Pulling out of a political project that's fundamentally flawed and securing our own trade deal will be easy considering our standing in the world. Please don't fall for the absolute nonsense like "Back of the queue" Obama spin.....theres is no queue!!! See the EU and not Europe for what it is? UNDEMOCRATIC. Greece being a prime example, bullied into submission by Germany against the will of the greek electorate.

[mmmmhibby]

That's what I think too.

How could it get worse? If you are a failed MP or a MEP then aye, its no good considering some dreamt up glam EU think-tank or quango position on £300k is no more after you are horsed out as a MP in the UK...the Kinnock family being a prime example along with warmonger tony blair, half the house of lords etc etc the list goes on. Millionaires on the back of unsackable made up jobs in EU institutions. Taxpayer funded BTW. Whos yer MEP? Without googling it lol.

[mmmmhibby]

Whatever the outcome Dodgy Dave is gonna get a bloody nose.....he should've thought before lying to the british people again and again and again. Our mainsteam news tv channels are even worse, some of the politico commentariat on these channels spin rubbish, utter twaddle on a daily basis.

[easty]

Whatever the outcome Dodgy Dave is gonna get a bloody nose.....he should've thought before lying to the british people again and again and again. Our mainsteam news tv channels are even worse, some of the politico commentariat on these channels spin rubbish, utter twaddle on a daily basis.

That's politics though, isn't it. Not unique to the Brexit argument.

[mmmmhibby]

That's politics though, isn't it. Not unique to the Brexit argument.

The fact that the Brexit debate has split his party makes it a tad different tho. He's a dead man walking IMO.

[easty]

The fact that the Brexit debate has split his party makes it a tad different tho. He's a dead man walking IMO.

Quite possibly, but he'll just be replaced by another politician.

[RyeSloan]

I reckon it'd get worse. We'd be even more of a casino economy, propped up by subsidised low wages, very little protection... and Theresa May instating the Magna Carta instead of proper human rights laws. As much as some of the leaders of the In Campaign are cretinous, untrustworthy bar-stewards, just looking at who is fronting up the Brexit argument tells you all you need to know.

I agree re those fronting the campaigns but I don't agree with the concept that we would suddenly become a casino economy...on what basis would that happen?

To be honest the debate, as expected, re Brexit has been crap. Full of daft figures plucked from nowhere about the cost or the benefits.

The way I see it is that Brexit would free the UK from the death grip of the EU and its un democratic centralist ways. Sure there would be a bit of pain but that would soon disappear when we realise that we are no longer bound by decisions made by technocrats in Brussels designed to protect the vested interests. That's said there is no guarantee that we wouldn't just replicate that to some degree at a UK level so really I'm not fussed either way as I don't believe any politician has any real grasp of how to increase their nations wealth.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I see a future where the EU wants to implement a all digital cash free economy / society.

A reason for me wanting out!

[Beefster]

This EU project is not about the people, its not for democracy, it PRO big corporation...

Except when they're taking Google and Microsoft to task over their practices...

[mmmmhibby]

Except when they're taking Google and Microsoft to task over their practices...

Never took them long eh? Mean, these type of corporations actually lobby EU rule makers into implementing policy that ultimately benefits them, so your statement has no substance. Nothing ever takes the EU long tho.......like trade deals.....hmmmmm.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see a future where the EU wants to implement a all digital cash free economy / society.

A reason for me wanting out!

Presumably run by migrants

[mmmmhibby]

I agree re those fronting the campaigns but I don't agree with the concept that we would suddenly become a casino economy...on what basis would that happen? To be honest the debate, as expected, re Brexit has been crap. Full of daft figures plucked from nowhere about the cost or the benefits. The way I see it is that Brexit would free the UK from the death grip of the EU and its un democratic centralist ways. Sure there would be a bit of pain but that would soon disappear when we realise that we are no longer bound by decisions made by technocrats in Brussels designed to protect the vested interests. That's said there is no guarantee that we wouldn't just replicate that to some degree at a UK level so really I'm not fussed either way as I don't believe any politician has any real grasp of how to increase their nations wealth. I agree, however the IN campaigners need to be more positive.....its been all doom n gloom and 100% lies to be frank. Dave has lied his way through this referendum.....and don't even get me started on that leaflet of fables which cost the taxpayer £9 million. Utter twaddlefest of lies.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Presumably run by migrants

In the border free world! There will be no migrants!

[grunt]

.....and don't even get me started on that leaflet of fables which cost the taxpayer £9 million. Utter twaddlefest of lies.Apparently not, if you accept the word of the independent team at Full Fact. Their summary states " ... much of the leaflet is accurate and the government deserves some credit for ensuring that it was published with details of the sources, making it easier to judge independently".

https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-leaflet-introduction/

"Full Fact is the UK’s independent, non-partisan, factchecking charity. We check claims made by politicians, the media, pressure groups, and other voices in public debate, and push for corrections where necessary. We also work with government departments and academic research institutions to improve the quality and communication of technical information at source, and campaign for greater transparency in the public arena."

[Moulin Yarns]

In the border free world! There will be no migrants!

We have borders. The UK is not part of Shengen. You need to do your homework.

On the other hand, if there are no migrants who will you blame?

[SHODAN]

In the border free world! There will be no migrants!

They're just imaginary lines anyway.

[mmmmhibby]

Apparently not, if you accept the word of the independent team at Full Fact. Their summary states " ... much of the leaflet is accurate and the government deserves some credit for ensuring that it was published with details of the sources, making it easier to judge independently".

https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-leaflet-introduction/

"Full Fact is the UK’s independent, non-partisan, factchecking charity. We check claims made by politicians, the media, pressure groups, and other voices in public debate, and push for corrections where necessary. We also work with government departments and academic research institutions to improve the quality and communication of technical information at source, and campaign for greater transparency in the public arena."

Funded by the EU......you couldn't make it up.....do you think they are gonna be for brexit?

[mmmmhibby]

The IMF disagree. The question is who you should believe - the IMF or this trumpet?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/08/article-2185322-1453AD23000005DC-81_306x423.jpg

The same IMF that George Osbourne has a board position with.....what coincidence that the IMF champion remain. New day, new rubbish. Vote Oot.

[grunt]

Funded by the EU......you couldn't make it up.....do you think they are gonna be for brexit?Really? Where do you get that from? Are you thinking that because they've got a page called "EU Referendum Funding"? Which is about how the Referendum is funded.

Or did you perhaps miss this page where they very clearly state where their funding comes from? https://fullfact.org/about/funding/ And it doesn't come from the EU.

[mmmmhibby]

Really? Where do you get that from? Are you thinking that because they've got a page called "EU Referendum Funding"? Which is about how the Referendum is funded.

Or did you perhaps miss this page where they very clearly state where their funding comes from? https://fullfact.org/about/funding/ And it doesn't come from the EU.

Ehhhhh......look at the list of there donators. Have you read it? Pro EU.

[grunt]

Ehhhhh......look at the list of there donators. Have you read it? Pro EU.Hopeless.

[Hibs Class]

Boris Johnson moves from annoying idiot to evil ****. From buffoonery to sinister. Even Nigel Farage would have had second thoughts about spouting this *****.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208

[Hibrandenburg]

Boris Johnson moves from annoying idiot to evil ****. From buffoonery to sinister. Even Nigel Farage would have had second thoughts about spouting this *****.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208

Sinister is the fact that in today's political climate, that statement will probably win them some more votes.

[SHODAN]

It is an absolutely terrifying prospect considering not only Britain out of the EU but Johnson as Prime Minster and ****bags like IDS in high office. Unthinkable.

[RyeSloan]

It is an absolutely terrifying prospect considering not only Britain out of the EU but Johnson as Prime Minster and ****bags like IDS in high office. Unthinkable.

The flip side is an undemocratic, unaccountable EU that sees its enduring purpose to never ending integration..I read this today and it struck a chord:

Mark Carney, David Cameron, the World Bank, the OECD, the IMF and every other transnational organisation dominated by global elites wants Brexit to be about economics. If it was as simple as that, it would be better. The EU started as a common market under the premise that free trade and open borders, and easy movement of labour and capital would promote the wellbeing of everyone in Europe.

That’s why the best argument for the EU is to reform it back into what it was only ever supposed to be: a common market. But the common market mechanism has always been a means to an end. The end?

Greater monetary integration. Greater regulation of business. Greater marginalisation of national parliaments. The subsuming of national identity in a European identity. That’s what a superstate is all about: creating new loyalties and destroying old allegiances (family, tribe, church, state and God).

[steakbake]

Boris Johnson moves from annoying idiot to evil ****. From buffoonery to sinister. Even Nigel Farage would have had second thoughts about spouting this *****.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208

Years ago, I used to read the Ceefax letters page just for some mild amusement at the fringe nutters who used to bleat about the EU being Hitler's blueprint for a united Europe. One woman used to constantly write in to say that the UK's switch to decimal would have been applauded in the Bundestag.

Absolute horse****... yet here it is from a supposedly mainstream politician representing a supposedly mainstream party (the same one as Ruth represents... :wink:)

Godwin's Law in action - reductio ad hilterum.

[(((Fergus)))]

Hopeless.

Do they present pros *and* cons of Remain?

[(((Fergus)))]

Years ago, I used to read the Ceefax letters page just for some mild amusement at the fringe nutters who used to bleat about the EU being Hitler's blueprint for a united Europe. One woman used to constantly write in to say that the UK's switch to decimal would have been applauded in the Bundestag.

Absolute horse****... yet here it is from a supposedly mainstream politician representing a supposedly mainstream party (the same one as Ruth represents... :wink:)

Godwin's Law in action - reductio ad hilterum.

He also mentioned Napoleon and the Roman Empire. Are there any positive examples of European integration from history?

[mmmmhibby]

If the EU is the land of economic milk and honey, how come:


- Youth unemployment is up to 60% in major countries such as Italy and Spain?
- Overall adult unemployment is higher than in the UK in all but 2 countries?
- Euro area unemployment is 10.3% compared to UK unemployment of 4.3%?
- Greece is bankrupt, Italy is close to banking collapse with Spain and Portugal one rung further up the ladder?
- It has a single currency that is wrecking the economies of all but one of the countries that use it?
- Several countries have negative interest rates?


The UK is far from perfect, but it will do far, far better in the long run that being tied to a failing bureaucratic superstate.

[Hibrandenburg]

The subsuming of national identity in a European identity. That’s what a superstate is all about: creating new loyalties and destroying old allegiances (family, tribe, church, state and God).

Good, maybe it's about time we moved into the 21St century.

[steakbake]

He also mentioned Napoleon and the Roman Empire. Are there any positive examples of European integration from history?

Bloody Romans, what did they do for us?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Bloody Romans, what did they do for us?

They gave us slavery & empire...

[Haymaker]

They gave us slavery & empire...


Along with Language, the Calendar, Law systems, Roads, aqueducts, irrigation....

[Moulin Yarns]

Along with Language, the Calendar, Law systems, Roads, aqueducts, irrigation....


Numerals, Blinds, alphabet, architecture, baths....

[Rasta_Hibs]

Along with Language, the Calendar, Law systems, Roads, aqueducts, irrigation....

I think these could have been introduced by the local populations if the Romans had not.

I have pictures of confused lefties throwing up Roman salutes now haha

[steakbake]

They gave us slavery & empire...

Something we're not too bad at ourselves...

[Rasta_Hibs]

Something we're not too bad at ourselves...

Was it not the UK who first abolished slavery?

[Haymaker]

Was it not the UK who first abolished slavery?

Not before profiting from it for many years

[Rasta_Hibs]

Not before profiting from it for many years

OK sure fair enough but they did abolish it unlike the Romans.

But its getting a bit weird the track of conversation - People holding up the idea of being ruled by a superstate and a unelected European political elite as being some sort of liberal utopia is a contradiction is It not?

[Haymaker]

OK sure fair enough but they did abolish it unlike the Romans.

But its getting a bit weird the track of conversation - People holding up the idea of being ruled by a superstate and a unelected European political elite as being some sort of liberal utopia is a contradiction is It not?


I have voted several times in elections for the European Union. Couldn't say that is was un-elected.

Ironically of course I did vote for The Roman Party last time round. I was hoping for food, booze and sex orgies and men fighting lions but alas! They didn't get voted in.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I have voted several times in elections for the European Union. Couldn't say that is was un-elected.

Ironically of course I did vote for The Roman Party last time round. I was hoping for food, booze and sex orgies and men fighting lions but alas! They didn't get voted in.

Haha I bet you did.

Who got your vote thats sits on the European Commission? As its the European Commission who has the power and sets the EU agenda.

The European Commission is not elected by the people, please correct me if I am wrong.

[Haymaker]

Haha I bet you did.

Who got your vote thats sits on the European Commission? As its the European Commission who has the power and sets the EU agenda.

The European Commission is not elected by the people, please correct me if I am wrong.

I believe they are subject to the approval of the EU Parliament members who we have elected our share of?

[Rasta_Hibs]

I believe they are subject to the approval of the EU Parliament members who we have elected our share of?

I believe the unelected European Commission sets the agenda then the EU parliament then implements it?

Has there ever been a case where the commission has had their policies rejected by the EU parliament?

[Haymaker]

I believe the unelected European Commission sets the agenda then the EU parliament then implements it?

Has there ever been a case where the commission has had their policies rejected by the EU parliament?

While they may be unelected, they are subject to appointment by elected officials as far as I can see.

[steakbake]

Not before profiting from it for many years

....many many years. Others banned it first.

I'm not saying the EU is a utopia, but as it goes, I'd rather it existed at the moment. I don't really care about nation states, but I do value my free movement and that of my partner in particular who is not from here.

The EU needs reform. However, I don't trust the people proposing leaving the EU - the kind who wilfully mix up the ECHR (which has nothing to do with the EU) and propose things like our rights being based on the Magna Carta.

It's almost like they pretend to be arguing for some bright future while being obsessed about the past.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

....many many years. Others banned it first.

I'm not saying the EU is a utopia, but as it goes, I'd rather it existed at the moment. I don't really care about nation states, but I do value my free movement and that of my partner in particular who is not from here.

The EU needs reform. However, I don't trust the people proposing leaving the Uk - the kind who wilfully mix up the ECHR (which has nothing to do with the EU) and propose things like our rights being based on the Magna Carta.

It's almost like they pretend to be arguing for some bright future while being obsessed about the past.

Fair enough point, but regarding trust, do you have any more confidence in the politicians in the Remain campaign? And do you have trust in the politicians from the other member states? Neither side is particularly trustworthy IMO.

It's a bit like bringing up that Boris Johnson is a twat - of course he is but the point is null and void when you look at some of the leading figures in the Remain campaign.

[RyeSloan]

Fair enough point, but regarding trust, do you have any more confidence in the politicians in the Remain campaign? And do you have trust in the politicians from the other member states? Neither side is particularly trustworthy IMO. It's a bit like bringing up that Boris Johnson is a twat - of course he is but the point is null and void when you look at some of the leading figures in the Remain campaign.

It's all rather depressing isn't it...now we have Cameron saying that ISIS would like Britain to vote leave...I mean really wtf?

[steakbake]

Fair enough point, but regarding trust, do you have any more confidence in the politicians in the Remain campaign? And do you have trust in the politicians from the other member states? Neither side is particularly trustworthy IMO.

It's a bit like bringing up that Boris Johnson is a twat - of course he is but the point is null and void when you look at some of the leading figures in the Remain campaign.

Not much, I'm afraid. It's more the idea I'm with rather than the people suggesting it - a bit like how I felt during the independence referendum.

But for people to change my mind on the EU ref, it's the wrong set of folks making the wrong kind of arguments.

[Moulin Yarns]

Haha I bet you did.

Who got your vote thats sits on the European Commission? As its the European Commission who has the power and sets the EU agenda.

The European Commission is not elected by the people, please correct me if I am wrong.




The European Parliament has legislative power that the Council and Commission do not have.

The commission is the executive committee that proposes legislation, The legislation needs to be passed and ratified by the elected parliament.

Hope that helps, If it makes it any better, I rely on European legislation in my job and if it wasn't there I probably wouldn't be in the job I do.

[mmmmhibby]

It's all rather depressing isn't it...now we have Cameron saying that ISIS would like Britain to vote leave...I mean really wtf?

Unreal eh? Dodgy Dave looks to be on the verge of a nervous breakdown, whats next? I liked the one about premiership footballers from EU post brexit the most. " It would be more difficult to sign players from EU countries if we leave EU". I cant see how anyone cannot see through his bare faced lies. Supposed highly intelligent people saying stuff like " Calais refugee camps will move to Dover" etc. This campaign, particularly the Remain side, are treating the UK public with utter contempt. Its as if Dodgy has already made up his mind that the electorate are stupid, gullible imbeciles so lets just feed them any old rubbish that will scare them.

Another sneeky move, the Chilcott report will be published 2 weeks after EU ref........only took 7 years.

[mmmmhibby]

Good article here, interesting.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour MP makes a comment regarding Hitler's original intention of dealing with the Jewish people = Wall to wall media coverage for several days.

Tory compares the EU to Hitler's Nazi Germany in a bid to sway referendum opinion = Bit of a laugh.

[marinello59]

Labour MP makes a comment regarding Hitler's original intention of dealing with the Jewish people = Wall to wall media coverage for several days.

Tory compares the EU to Hitler's Nazi Germany in a bid to sway referendum opinion = Bit of a laugh.

Eh? Which papers have you been reading? Both politicians condemned whilst apologists for each of them tried to limit the damage. I haven't read anything suggesting Johnson's ignorant comments were a bit of a laugh.

[Hibbyradge]

Eh? Which papers have you been reading? Both politicians condemned whilst apologists for each of them tried to limit the damage. I haven't read anything suggesting Johnson's ignorant comments were a bit of a laugh.

:agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

Watching UK news abroad there's a huge difference in coverage. We had 3 days of pictures of Ken Livingston being hounded by packs of journalists in a stairwell, on a shopping trip and waiting to ambush him outside his home in what I'd describe as an aggressive manner. Boris Johnson on the other hand has been allowed to move on and is already back to giving interviews with no mention of his little Faux pas.

[Rasta_Hibs]

The European Parliament has legislative power that the Council and Commission do not have.

The commission is the executive committee that proposes legislation, The legislation needs to be passed and ratified by the elected parliament.

Hope that helps, If it makes it any better, I rely on European legislation in my job and if it wasn't there I probably wouldn't be in the job I do.

The unelected commission proposes legislation. Which needs to be passed by the elected parliament.

What a strange kind of democracy.

I am right in saying that all legislation that the unelected commission had proposed has been passed by the elected parliament.

How would the European people change any laws that the EU parliament implements on behalf of the unelected commission?

They cant. There is no way too unless you break EU law.

[Moulin Yarns]

The unelected commission proposes legislation. Which needs to be passed by the elected parliament.

What a strange kind of democracy.

I am right in saying that all legislation that the unelected commission had proposed has been passed by the elected parliament.

How would the European people change any laws that the EU parliament implements on behalf of the unelected commission?

They cant. There is no way too unless you break EU law.

I've already said I work on a daily basis using "http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31992L0043"Council Directive 92/43/EEC (http://"http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31992L0043"Council Directive 92/43/EEC) The Directive applies to the UK and to its Overseas Territory of Gibraltar, except that the UK and Scottish Governments have chosen to not implement one particular piece of the legislation that is really causing problems in my part of the country. It means there is conflict between conservation organisations and landowners. It is my opinion that the landowners have broken EU law, but in this case not UK or Scots law.

This is a case of European legislation being stronger than the UK, and the Scottish Government has been sitting on their own agencies advice for a year without making a decision.

Also, remember the UK negotiated a number of opt outs, such as using the Euro, joining Shengen for just 2. Of course people can change, or opt out of European laws. The way you put it suggests it is either black or white, when in fact there are at least 50 shades of grey in between.

[mmmmhibby]

I've already said I work on a daily basis using "http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31992L0043"Council Directive 92/43/EEC (http://"http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31992L0043"Council Directive 92/43/EEC) The Directive applies to the UK and to its Overseas Territory of Gibraltar, except that the UK and Scottish Governments have chosen to not implement one particular piece of the legislation that is really causing problems in my part of the country. It means there is conflict between conservation organisations and landowners. It is my opinion that the landowners have broken EU law, but in this case not UK or Scots law.

This is a case of European legislation being stronger than the UK, and the Scottish Government has been sitting on their own agencies advice for a year without making a decision.

Also, remember the UK negotiated a number of opt outs, such as using the Euro, joining Shengen for just 2. Of course people can change, or opt out of European laws. The way you put it suggests it is either black or white, when in fact there are at least 50 shades of grey in between.

Surely implementing legislation is the fundamental core basic policy for any country to function. Like the rest of the world outside the EU do.

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely implementing legislation is the fundamental core basic policy for any country to function. Like the rest of the world outside the EU do.

OK, Implementation is probably the wrong word, it is how something has been interpreted by our governments in relation to a single species of mammal that is afforded full protection under EU Habitats Directive, but which is not here.

[RyeSloan]

OK, Implementation is probably the wrong word, it is how something has been interpreted by our governments in relation to a single species of mammal that is afforded full protection under EU Habitats Directive, but which is not here.

And this is an argument for staying in the EU?

[Moulin Yarns]

And this is an argument for staying in the EU?

You need to go back a bit to find what I was responding to.

EU laws which are stronger than ours but being badly interpreted by our government.

It is something that is now up to Roseanna Cunningham to do the right thing and give the proper protection by accepting the reintroduction of a former native species.

[RyeSloan]

You need to go back a bit to find what I was responding to. EU laws which are stronger than ours but being badly interpreted by our government. It is something that is now up to Roseanna Cunningham to do the right thing and give the proper protection by accepting the reintroduction of a former native species.

That's part of the problem with EU directives though, they require interpretation and implementation by individual states so you frequently get inconsistencies within states on how that interpretation has been done and across states on how each has implemented them.

The flip slide of course is that it's all done by EU regulation which I assume would cause it's own issues as regulation that works for some states might not make total sense in others.

[High-On-Hibs]

The Semi-Unionists complaining about the media scaring pensioners into voting to stay in Europe. The hypocrisy levels are off the charts.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

Inconvenient and best ignored?

[Holmesdale Hibs]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

Inconvenient and best ignored?

It's all guess work though and no one really knows what will happen either way. I personally think there's more economic risk staying in the union as Greece and others will inevitably default eventually and there's only so long eu politicians can kick the can down the road.

But, in my humble opinion of course, most people don't vote on economics. For those voting Brexit, myself included, the main motivation is the lack of democracy and concern about the union expanding further - Turkey with a population of 76mn will be joining soon and I don't understand why anyone would want to give them some of our sovereignty and an open border to our already overstretched public services. I also disagree Blair/Cameron that having open border with a county the borders Syria and Iraq will make us safer.

[Hibbyradge]

It's all guess work though and no one really knows what will happen either way. I personally think there's more economic risk staying in the union as Greece and others will inevitably default eventually and there's only so long eu politicians can kick the can down the road.

But, in my humble opinion of course, most people don't vote on economics. For those voting Brexit, myself included, the main motivation is the lack of democracy and concern about the union expanding further - Turkey with a population of 76mn will be joining soon and I don't understand why anyone would want to give them some of our sovereignty and an open border to our already overstretched public services. I also disagree Blair/Cameron that having open border with a county the borders Syria and Iraq will make us safer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_the_economy,_stupid :wink:

[Holmesdale Hibs]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_the_economy,_stupid :wink:

Fair enough, set you up for that one.

I just think for the EU referendum that there is too much unknowns on either side of the economic argument for it to be the deciding factor for most voters. But I obviously wouldn't apply this logic to uk general elections and economic incompetence was the main thing that lost it for labour last time round.

[steakbake]

The knives are out for Cameron, either way this goes.

[Hibbyradge]

You can add George Galloway to the top list too.

http://s33.postimg.org/j93lre9hb/brexit_nutters.jpg

[Holmesdale Hibs]

You can add George Galloway to the top list too.

http://s33.postimg.org/j93lre9hb/brexit_nutters.jpg

Wow, Boris looks insane and Trump looks like he's doing a ...

I wonder why the remain campaign missed out the big hitters such as Tony Blair, David Cameron, Nick Clegg, George Osbourne and some members of the Bush administration.

It's not a personality contest though and even if it was then there's no shortage of ********s on both sides.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Wow, Boris looks insane and Trump looks like he's doing a ...

I wonder why the remain campaign missed out the big hitters such as Tony Blair, David Cameron, Nick Clegg, George Osbourne and some members of the Bush administration.

It's not a personality contest though and even if it was then there's no shortage of ********s on both sides.

Most of the western warmonger leaders want us to remain.

[Moulin Yarns]

Most of the western warmonger leaders want us to remain.

Only so they can bomb syria.










Joke


Actually, thinking about it Rasta, who, of those pictured is most likely to go to war?

[Hibrandenburg]

Jeez, after watching the media circus about a dingy with Albanians landing on the south coast yesterday, you'd be forgiven for thinking that there's some kind of Islamic D-day happening.

[danhibees1875]

You can add George Galloway to the top list too.

http://s33.postimg.org/j93lre9hb/brexit_nutters.jpg

I feel like for such a divisive issue that someone who supports either side with any particular politician inclination could draw up a list of people who back their opinion who would appear favourable.

[mmmmhibby]

These Pro-Eu Economists are really scraping the barrel with figures, the same economists who said the UK would die if we didn't opt in to joining the single currency(euro) to name but one. And George Osbourne, well, he couldnae forecast 6 o'clock at 5.30....the smug twat.

[SunshineOnLeith]

the same economists who said the UK would die if we didn't opt in to joining the single currency(euro) to name but one.

Show your workings.

[Hibbyradge]

Watch the Pound and shares plummet if it's leave.

I'm genuinely worried about the effect a leave success would have.

[mmmmhibby]

Watch the Pound and shares plummet if it's leave.

I'm genuinely worried about the effect a leave success would have.

We were told that by the same body of economists if we didn't join the Euro some years back.......and guess what?

[easty]

We were told that by the same body of economists if we didn't join the Euro some years back.......and guess what?

Were we? I don't remember that, do you have any links?

[SunshineOnLeith]

We were told that by the same body of economists if we didn't join the Euro some years back.

Show your workings.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Watch the Pound and shares plummet if it's leave.

I'm genuinely worried about the effect a leave success would have.

Both might fall a bit in the short run but seeing them 'plummet' is unlikely. Depends how you define plummet I suppose but the perceived risk of Brexit will already be priced in before the vote. Short term instability is the main downside to Brexit but it's a price worth paying IMO.

[Hibbyradge]

Both might fall a bit in the short run but seeing them 'plummet' is unlikely. Depends how you define plummet I suppose but the perceived risk of Brexit will already be priced in before the vote. Short term instability is the main downside to Brexit but it's a price worth paying IMO.

But what would we be paying for?

http://s33.postimg.org/d9nzpna5r/13343013_10153583223781700_7191057687738552268_n.j pg

[Holmesdale Hibs]

But what would we be paying for?

http://s33.postimg.org/d9nzpna5r/13343013_10153583223781700_7191057687738552268_n.j pg

Democracy, sovereignty, control of our borders, the ability to make trade deals with countries outside the EU, and £Xmn we give the EU every day. These are all guaranteed

There's a lot of unknowns staying in as well when you think how much the EU has changed since it was first set up. Are you in favour of Turkey and other currently non-EU members joining? What about the EU's ability to overrule our courts? Bailing out failing EU countries? Not being able to make a trade deal that suits with non-EU countries?

[Hibbyradge]

Democracy, sovereignty, control of our borders, the ability to make trade deals with countries outside the EU, and £Xmn we give the EU every day. These are all guaranteed

There's a lot of unknowns staying in as well when you think how much the EU has changed since it was first set up. Are you in favour of Turkey and other currently non-EU members joining? What about the EU's ability to overrule our courts? Bailing out failing EU countries? Not being able to make a trade deal that suits with non-EU countries?

We already have all of those things, but even if they're not exactly as you would like, to paraphrase you, it's a price worth paying.

I'll repost this;

"What did the EU ever do for us?”

Not much, apart from:


providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air;

lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.


And, all of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

[SunshineOnLeith]

We already have all of those things, but even if they're not exactly as you would like, to paraphrase you, it's a price worth paying.

I'll repost this;

"What did the EU ever do for us?”

Not much, apart from:


providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air;

lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.


And, all of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

But, but, but the person who serves me coffee in the morning is from Poland. BROKEN BRITAIN.

[Moulin Yarns]

We already have all of those things, but even if they're not exactly as you would like, to paraphrase you, it's a price worth paying.

I'll repost this;

"What did the EU ever do for us?”

Not much, apart from:


providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.


And, all of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

As well as the bloc negotiations at the WTO we have a UK representation which seems to be forgotten about by everyone in the out campaign.

You missed my favourites. The Habitats Directive and Birds Directive which provides the basis for all our wildlife legislation, making wildlife protection in the UK some of the strongest in the world.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

It's obviously done some good stuff and something so complex can not fall under a binary good/bad description. I'm sure you wouldn't argue it's perfect (or maybe you would?) it's all about weighting up the pros and cons and on balance I'd prefer to leave.

I'm all for protecting wildlife by the way, but heaven forbid a polish guy ever served me coffee... after the initial shock I'd be straight home to write a telegram to the daily mail comments section before rounding up a vigilante group from the local weatherspoons.

[twiceinathens]

The one thing that both sides assure us of is that if we don't vote for them we're doomed. So it's a choice between death by hanging or lethal injection!

[RyeSloan]

We already have all of those things, but even if they're not exactly as you would like, to paraphrase you, it's a price worth paying. I'll repost this; "What did the EU ever do for us?” Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. And, all of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

A lot of that list could have been achieved by a UK only parliament. Also we could still trade with the EU even if we were not formally part of it.

The point re investment in living standards is an odd one, doubt those that have suffered the EU's flat growth for the last few years will be agreeing with that point.

It could also be argued that it's NATO and the threat from Russia that encouraged Europeans to stop killing each other, the EU of today simply hasn't been about for 60 years.

I do get your point though and no doubt there is some advantages to being part of such a collective but there is no doubting that there is also some significant disadvantages.

As an aside the Socialist Worker was out campaigning in Princess St today...they were encouraging people to vote remain but only so the whole of the EU could be reformed top to bottom from the inside! Very odd to say that something is so crap it needs to be totally reformed (very unlikely!) but let's vote to stay in anyway!

[mmmmhibby]

If the EU is the land of economic milk and honey, how come:


- Youth unemployment is up to 60% in major countries such as Italy and Spain?
- Overall adult unemployment is higher than in the UK in all but 2 countries?
- Euro area unemployment is 10.3% compared to UK unemployment of 4.3%?
- Greece is bankrupt, Italy is close to banking collapse with Spain and Portugal one rung further up the ladder?
- It has a single currency that is wrecking the economies of all but one of the countries that use it?
- Several countries have negative interest rates?


The UK is far from perfect, but it will do far, far better in the long run that being tied to a failing bureaucratic superstate.

Well?

[easty]

Well?

Well what?

What you seem to be saying is that things could be a lot worse than they are...and with that being the case, why would we vote to change things?

[Colr]

But, but, but the person who serves me coffee in the morning is from Poland.

Your wife is Polish?

[mmmmhibby]

[QUOTE=easty;4718087]Well what?

What you seem to be saying is that things could be a lot worse than they are...and with that being the case, why would we vote to change things?[/QUOTE

See to me if things aint working i'd rather come up with a solution to change it. For me its all about democracy and the EU stands for anything but.

[Moulin Yarns]

[QUOTE=easty;4718087]Well what?

What you seem to be saying is that things could be a lot worse than they are...and with that being the case, why would we vote to change things?[/QUOTE

See to me if things aint working i'd rather come up with a solution to change it. For me its all about democracy and the EU stands for anything but.

Do we democratically vote for MEPs to represent us? Yes

Are we being given the opportunity to democratically decide whether we remain in or leave the European Union? Yes

Is the EU democratic? Yes

For reference



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union (]http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/06/11/the-european-union-does-not-have-a-democratic-deficit-it-has-a-democratic-surplus/[/URL)

[URL=]http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/democratic_deficit.html

[Rasta_Hibs]

[QUOTE=mmmmhibby;4718433]

Do we democratically vote for MEPs to represent us? Yes

Are we being given the opportunity to democratically decide whether we remain in or leave the European Union? Yes

Is the EU democratic? Yes

For reference

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/06/11/the-european-union-does-not-have-a-democratic-deficit-it-has-a-democratic-surplus/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/democratic_deficit.html

It's not democratic! Its designed by it's nature to never allow the people of Europe to change it's laws.

As I said before how do the people change anything the EU implements? We can't, there is no one to vote out or no way to do so.

[Moulin Yarns]

[QUOTE=Golden Fleece;4718452]

It's not democratic! Its designed by it's nature to never allow the people of Europe to change it's laws.

As I said before how do the people change anything the EU implements? We can't, there is no one to vote out or no way to do so.

Ahem!!

I know I'm getting on, but my memory isn't that bad that I have forgotten the elections to the European Parliament in 2014. A democratic process where we, the people elected representatives to the European Parlaiment.


http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/what-can-i-vote-for/european-parliament




The European Parliament has powers in a range of areas that affect member countries and can approve, change or reject new European laws.

[URL=]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law (]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom )[/URL)

Happy now?

We have everything you claim we don't.

[mmmmhibby]

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-economy-is-broken

Bloomberg seem to have suddenly changed their minds on EU economy compared to 2 years ago, wonder why? Aw, because they have guys lobbying EU officials to implement regulation to suit them, just like google, goldman sachs, Blackhorse Hedge Funds, Microsoft etc etc. Backhanders galore.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-economy-is-broken

Bloomberg seem to have suddenly changed their minds on EU economy compared to 2 years ago, wonder why? Aw, because they have guys lobbying EU officials to implement regulation to suit them, just like google, goldman sachs, Blackhorse Hedge Funds, Microsoft etc etc. Backhanders galore.

A link to a 2014 Opinion article, where is the current one to support your opinion?

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=Golden Fleece;4718452]

It's not democratic! Its designed by it's nature to never allow the people of Europe to change it's laws.

As I said before how do the people change anything the EU implements? We can't, there is no one to vote out or no way to do so.
Don't you get a vote in the elections for the European Parliament? I do.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

[QUOTE=Rasta_Hibs;4718513]
Don't you get a vote in the elections for the European Parliament? I do.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Sorry Crops, that quote is not mine, it is someone going by the name of Rasta Hibs. I agree and have argued the same point you make.

Something weird happening with he quotes!! Which actually makes me laugh

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4718564]

Sorry Crops, that quote is not mine, it is someone going by the name of Rasta Hibs. I agree and have argued the same point you make.

Something weird happening with he quotes!! Which actually makes me laugh
Ken. I thought I was quoting you :)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Rasta_Hibs]

[QUOTE=Rasta_Hibs;4718513]
Don't you get a vote in the elections for the European Parliament? I do.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Do you get a say on who sits on the European Commission? As really its them who have any real power within the EU.

The EU parliament is token gesture towards democracy

[Moulin Yarns]

Rasta, we have been through his before. ALL decisions are made at Parliament level


The 'Commission' is the EU equivalent of the Civil Service. We don't get a say on who works for the Civil Service, so why should it be any different with the Commission.







Do you get a say on who sits on the European Commission? As really its them who have any real power within the EU.

The EU parliament is token gesture towards democracy

Talking of token gestures towards democracy.....


Minister will consider public opinion as well as science when deciding whether to allow fracking


Posted at 13:24
Energy minister Paul Wheelhouse insisted the Scottish Parliament's desire for an all-out ban on fracking was "non-binding" and that the Scottish government would continue with its moratorium pending the results of scientific research and consultation.





This is today, after there was a democratic process on Tuesday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36422083

And you think we live in a democracy compared to the EU? :confused:

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Even if EU laws are made at parliament level (I don't know whether they are or not), UK MEPs make up a very small part of that parliament and the vast majority of voties come from MEPs from other countries who no one in the UK voted for. And counties can easily veto others proposals (like the ones Cameron agreed). The UKs voting power will be diluted further as the union expands.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Even if EU laws are made at parliament level (I don't know whether they are or not), UK MEPs make up a very small part of that parliament and the vast majority of voties come from MEPs from other countries who no one in the UK voted for. And counties can easily veto others proposals (like the ones Cameron agreed). The UKs voting power will be diluted further as the union expands.

That's because they're EU laws, not UK laws.

Happy to help.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

That's because they're EU laws, not UK laws.

Happy to help.

But they apply in the UK and are made by people who no one in the UK voted for. I think it would be more democratic if they were made by people that we did vote for.

[CropleyWasGod]

But they apply in the UK and are made by people who no one in the UK voted for. I think it would be more democratic if they were made by people that we did vote for.

That's like people in Scotland saying that they didn't vote for the MP's in Westminster who make the UK laws.

Or people who live in Western Edinburgh who didn't vote for the SNP Government that makes the Scottish laws.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

That's like people in Scotland saying that they didn't vote for the MP's in Westminster who make the UK laws.

Or people who live in Western Edinburgh who didn't vote for the SNP Government that makes the Scottish laws.

Agree with the first paragraph, although having 20+ countries with completely different cultures and economies agree on common law is a lot more difficult.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Agree with the first paragraph, although having 20+ countries with completely different cultures and economies agree on common law is a lot more difficult.

Probably why most of our law is made at a local level, tbf.

[Moulin Yarns]

Even if EU laws are made at parliament level (I don't know whether they are or not), UK MEPs make up a very small part of that parliament and the vast majority of voties come from MEPs from other countries who no one in the UK voted for. And counties can easily veto others proposals (like the ones Cameron agreed). The UKs voting power will be diluted further as the union expands.

I think if you do a little research you would find how the European Parliament works

MEPs don't sit in country groups, imagine the SNP sitting with UKIP !!!? Instead they make political alliances based on their party policies, European Socialists sit together, Conservatives from all nations sit together, There is a Green Alliance etc.

Each MEP has the same voting rights, and they vote along party alliance lines, not for the UK or against the UK. Within each party alliance they represent the UK interest, and with UKIP having the largest number of MEPs representing the UK they are in a minority on the opposition benches.

[Moulin Yarns]

But they apply in the UK and are made by people who no one in the UK voted for. I think it would be more democratic if they were made by people that we did vote for.

A little more research.


They apply in the UK, as they do across the EU.

They are made by the EU parliament, members of which we voted for, the majority is a cross party Conservative, Socialist and Liberal Democratic alliance. Unless you voted UKIP!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Agree with the first paragraph, although having 20+ countries with completely different cultures and economies agree on common law is a lot more difficult.


No it's not, it is consensus politics, like we should have instead of one party majorities like Westminster.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

QUOTE]
No it's not, it is consensus politics, like we should have instead of one party majorities like Westminster.

Without addressing every point you've raised, I think 'consensus politics' is a good synopsis of the crux of what we've been discussing. I'm all for more consensus in Westminster but let's not start going in to voting systems. At country level it's fine, I just don't think it works with so many countries that are so culturely and economically different. The more the union expands, the more diverse the new members are becoming (Turkey, Albania, Serbia next in line). I don't think they should have any influence on UK law (through allegencies or otherwise) and similarly, I don't see their law as any of our business. Are you in favour of further expansion out of interest? Not looking for an argument, just curious.

Re th point you made about ukip - I didn't vote for them (think I voted green but really can't remember), but I don't think they're that bad anymore, especially when you look at some of the antics of the mainstream parties (illegal wars, but again that's another subject). The few ukip voters I've met have been as educated, hard-working and law-abiding as anyone else. The days of BNP in suits are long gone

To be honest, I don't even have that strong an opinion on the EU and typing away on my phone is beginning to give me sore thumbs and annoy the missus, so the last I'll say is: I was undecided until recently but the overriding factor for me was my lack of trust in politicians to do the right thing. They've changed the EU beyond recognition since it was first formed and I'm genuinely concerned at what they'll have done to it in another 30 years time.

[RyeSloan]

A little more research. They apply in the UK, as they do across the EU. They are made by the EU parliament, members of which we voted for, the majority is a cross party Conservative, Socialist and Liberal Democratic alliance. Unless you voted UKIP!!

A conservative, Socialist, lib dem alliance....wow that's some collective of views that!

You are rather overstating the role of the parliament in Europe though, the real power sits with the commission and more so the Council of Ministers...to try and suggest the parliament is the one that sets the agenda and creates the directives is simply wrong. The council of ministers is very much where the national interests of each nation are expressed and the horse trading is done, add in the huge lobbying forces and the idea that the EU is even remotely democratic based on the make up of the parliament is rather wide of the mark.

[Moulin Yarns]

A conservative, Socialist, lib dem alliance....wow that's some collective of views that!

You are rather overstating the role of the parliament in Europe though, the real power sits with the commission and more so the Council of Ministers...to try and suggest the parliament is the one that sets the agenda and creates the directives is simply wrong. The council of ministers is very much where the national interests of each nation are expressed and the horse trading is done, add in the huge lobbying forces and the idea that the EU is even remotely democratic based on the make up of the parliament is rather wide of the mark.

I've said it before

European Commission = Civil Service

[RyeSloan]

I've said it before European Commission = Civil Service

Far too simplistic to call the Directorate Generals the equivalent of the Civil Service.

From the EU's own website:

What we do

The Commission's main roles are to:
propose legislation which is then adopted by the co-legislators, the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers
enforce European law (where necessary with the help of the Court of Justice of the EU)
set a objectives and priorities for action, outlined yearly in the Commission Work Programme and work towards delivering them
manage and implement EU policies and the budget
represent the Union outside Europe (negotiating trade agreements between the EU and other countries, for example.).

[mmmmhibby]

A conservative, Socialist, lib dem alliance....wow that's some collective of views that!

You are rather overstating the role of the parliament in Europe though, the real power sits with the commission and more so the Council of Ministers...to try and suggest the parliament is the one that sets the agenda and creates the directives is simply wrong. The council of ministers is very much where the national interests of each nation are expressed and the horse trading is done, add in the huge lobbying forces and the idea that the EU is even remotely democratic based on the make up of the parliament is rather wide of the mark.

Spot on.

[mmmmhibby]

looks like our EU contributions will increase, and the Telegraph is a advocate of remain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/04/britain-asked-for-more-cash-as-migrant-crisis-strains-eu-budget/

[Moulin Yarns]

looks like our EU contributions will increase, and the Telegraph is a advocate of remain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/04/britain-asked-for-more-cash-as-migrant-crisis-strains-eu-budget/


And in response to the latest lie from Vote Leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277


The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts. This has already been agreed by EU leaders. In addition, the UK-EU deal from February, which will be implemented if the UK votes to stay in the EU, reinforces this and states that the UK would be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the cost of the eurozone crisis.

[Edinburgher]

I will probably vote to stay in, however, I don`t think that people from other EU countries should get access to social housing etc before those born and bred here.

[easty]

I will probably vote to stay in, however, I don`t think that people from other EU countries should get access to social housing etc before those born and bred here.

I don't really see why not. Especially if it's ahead of some bum who's never attempted to put anything back into our system themselves.

[mmmmhibby]

And in response to the latest lie from Vote Leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277

we shall find out for real shortly, Greece is due to pay billions, if it defaults, we shall find out.

[Hibbyradge]

we shall find out for real shortly, Greece is due to pay billions, if it defaults, we shall find out.

We already know "for real".

Just because it doesn't suit your agenda, doesn't mean it's not the truth.

[Edinburgher]

I don't really see why not. Especially if it's ahead of some bum who's never attempted to put anything back into our system themselves.


Well there are plenty of foreign "bums" here and maybe the local "bum`s" ancestors paid into the system thus making them a little more deserving than someone who just came here, probably did a low paid job and thus didn`t contribute a great deal in tax revenue anyway.Or maybe someone you know who has a serious illness and can`t get a doctor/hospital appointment or operation anytime soon because there is a backlog of economic immigrants before them - who wouldn`t be entitled to the same treatment in their own country - would that be fair?
And are these benefits reciprocated in other countries - Probably not - go try I`ll bet you`ll find you`ll be homeless and starving and why would anyone not want to live in a wonderful city like Edinburgh and a first world country like Britain, anyway? Indeed your kids might not be able to get the school of your choice because economic migrants have gotten their places - would that be fair?

[RyeSloan]

Well there are plenty of foreign "bums" here and maybe the local "bum`s" ancestors paid into the system thus making them a little more deserving than someone who just came here, probably did a low paid job and thus didn`t contribute a great deal in tax revenue anyway.Or maybe someone you know who has a serious illness and can`t get a doctor/hospital appointment or operation anytime soon because there is a backlog of economic immigrants before them - who wouldn`t be entitled to the same treatment in their own country - would that be fair? And are these benefits reciprocated in other countries - Probably not - go try I`ll bet you`ll find you`ll be homeless and starving and why would anyone not want to live in a wonderful city like Edinburgh and a first world country like Britain, anyway? Indeed your kids might not be able to get the school of your choice because economic migrants have gotten their places - would that be fair?

Would be just as fair to mention then the amount of economic migrants that work in the NHS the help provide the services and the problems that would be faced without them.

Immigration cuts both ways and in a nation that has such a low birth rate as the UK it's basically essential to ensure the continuing economic growth of the country.

The myth that migration just blocks up the system for the existing local populace is just that, a myth.

[Edinburgher]

Would be just as fair to mention then the amount of economic migrants that work in the NHS the help provide the services and the problems that would be faced without them.

Immigration cuts both ways and in a nation that has such a low birth rate as the UK it's basically essential to ensure the continuing economic growth of the country.

The myth that migration just blocks up the system for the existing local populace is just that, a myth.


Valid points SiMar - I didn`t mean to suggest that there aren`t benefits but merely whether these benefits outweigh the costs.

[mmmmhibby]

We already know "for real".

Just because it doesn't suit your agenda, doesn't mean it's not the truth.

How do we know? How does this scenario suit my agenda? And how is it the truth? Please elaborate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Valid points SiMar - I didn`t mean to suggest that there aren`t benefits but merely whether these benefits outweigh the costs.

These debates go round in circles. The answers are there if you look for them.

Not all may be up to date, but they say the same thing.



[URL=]http://iasservices.org.uk/how-does-immigration-benefit-the-uk/ (]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497[/URL)



[URL=]https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration (]http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us[/URL)



[URL=]http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/05/migration-target-useless-experts (]http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study[/URL)



[URL=]http://www.cityam.com/213058/eu-immigrants-contribute-463-second-uk-economy (]http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk[/URL)


Hopefully that sets the record straight on the question of the costs of migrants to our systems in the UK

[heretoday]

[QUOTE=mmmmhibby;4718433]

Do we democratically vote for MEPs to represent us? Yes

Are we being given the opportunity to democratically decide whether we remain in or leave the European Union? Yes

Is the EU democratic? Yes

For reference



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union (]http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/06/11/the-european-union-does-not-have-a-democratic-deficit-it-has-a-democratic-surplus/[/URL)

[URL=]http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/democratic_deficit.html

The Commission isn't democratic.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Commission isn't democratic.

I don't think anyone said it was, but the European Parliament is.

I will say it again, the European Commission is, to all intents and purposes, the European Civil Service.




The term Commission is used either in the narrow sense of the 28-member College of Commissioners (or College) or to also include the administrative body of about 23,000 European civil servants who are split into departments called directorates-general and services


With a staff of 34,000 drawn from the length and breadth of the EU, the Commission works closely with the European Parliament and national governments to run the Union in the overall interests of its 455 million citizens.

[mmmmhibby]

And in response to the latest lie from Vote Leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277

David Cameron; "We are not part of Eurozone bailout schemes". Deliberate weasel-words hiding lies. Quoting; "The UK does, however, indirectly contribute to eurozone bailouts where there is a contribution from the IMF. It also made a bilateral contribution in the case of the Republic of Ireland. The UK is, also indirectly, potentially affected by any losses incurred by yet another bailout agency - called the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM). It contributed to the bailouts of Ireland and Portugal.

[RyeSloan]

I don't think anyone said it was, but the European Parliament is. I will say it again, the European Commission is, to all intents and purposes, the European Civil Service.

And I'll say again that it and the council of commissioners are much more than a civil service...you are making out that it merely enacts what the parliament proposes and passes, it simply doesn't work like that.

You can repeat your 'civil service' line all you want but any modicum of research will show that the power in the EU doesn't lie with the parliament and that it is not in any reasonable interpretation of the word a democratic institution that is answerable to the people. You can argue whether that's actually good or bad but to suggest that people's votes for their MEP's influences in any significant way the direction and law making of the EU is simply incorrect.

[Rasta_Hibs]

And I'll say again that it and the council of commissioners are much more than a civil service...you are making out that it merely enacts what the parliament proposes and passes, it simply doesn't work like that.

You can repeat your 'civil service' line all you want but any modicum of research will show that the power in the EU doesn't lie with the parliament and that it is not in any reasonable interpretation of the word a democratic institution that is answerable to the people. You can argue whether that's actually good or bad but to suggest that people's votes for their MEP's influences in any significant way the direction and law making of the EU is simply incorrect.

You are bang on the money!

[SunshineOnLeith]

David Cameron; "We are not part of Eurozone bailout schemes". Deliberate weasel-words hiding lies. Quoting; "The UK does, however, indirectly contribute to eurozone bailouts where there is a contribution from the IMF. It also made a bilateral contribution in the case of the Republic of Ireland. The UK is, also indirectly, potentially affected by any losses incurred by yet another bailout agency - called the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM). It contributed to the bailouts of Ireland and Portugal.

You've deliberately ignored this part:

"Reality Check verdict: The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts. This has already been agreed by EU leaders. In addition, the UK-EU deal from February, which will be implemented if the UK votes to stay in the EU, reinforces this and states that the UK would be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the cost of the eurozone crisis."

What does the UK's involvement with the IMF have to do with the EU Referendum?

[mmmmhibby]

You've deliberately ignored this part:

"Reality Check verdict: The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts. This has already been agreed by EU leaders. In addition, the UK-EU deal from February, which will be implemented if the UK votes to stay in the EU, reinforces this and states that the UK would be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the cost of the eurozone crisis."

What does the UK's involvement with the IMF have to do with the EU Referendum?

The IMF are actively engaged in policy advice and financing within EU institutions. Do some research.

[SunshineOnLeith]

The IMF are actively engaged in policy advice and financing within EU institutions. Do some research.

But we're not voting on whether or not to 'Leave' the IMF. Non-EU countries were, and are, exposed to IMF bailouts.

[Glory Lurker]

Speaking as a Remain person, I really don't think MPs talking about defying the will of the people if Leave wins is remotely a good idea. Leave appears to be gaining momentum by appealing to the angrier sections of society, and I can only see this gathering more headway if the impression is that the establishment will ignore a democratic outcome.

[Mr White]

What do the latest polls suggest of current opinion? I haven't really been paying much attention until yesterday when I realised that Teresa Villiers the Northern Ireland secretary is one of the leading brexit campaigners and that the DUP are in favour of leaving too.

I can't see it helping the situation in Ulster if we leave so it's surprising to see that lot in favour tbh.

[Moulin Yarns]

And I'll say again that it and the council of commissioners are much more than a civil service...you are making out that it merely enacts what the parliament proposes and passes, it simply doesn't work like that.

You can repeat your 'civil service' line all you want but any modicum of research will show that the power in the EU doesn't lie with the parliament and that it is not in any reasonable interpretation of the word a democratic institution that is answerable to the people. You can argue whether that's actually good or bad but to suggest that people's votes for their MEP's influences in any significant way the direction and law making of the EU is simply incorrect.


If you look back you will find I have said that the Commission set out the legislation to Parliament for ratification. If the Parliament don't vote through legislation then it goes back to the Commission for revision. The Parliament have the legislative power, as in any democracy. Having said that the Swiss system of public referenda is more democratic. :wink:

What I quoted is actually straight from the Commission website, so they call themselves Civil Servants.

[PeeJay]

The IMF are actively engaged in policy advice and financing within EU institutions. Do some research.

You seem to be suggesting that the IMF is "actively engaged" in shaping policy and financing within EU institutions although it has no "right" to be so? As far as I know, the International Monetary Fund cooperates with the EU in providing advice and financing as and when required. These activities are conducted on a cooperation basis with the EU, that's a perfectly common modus operandi amongst international organisations and institutions, isn't it?

[mmmmhibby]

You seem to be suggesting that the IMF is "actively engaged" in shaping policy and financing within EU institutions although it has no "right" to be so? As far as I know, the International Monetary Fund cooperates with the EU in providing advice and financing as and when required. These activities are conducted on a cooperation basis with the EU, that's a perfectly common modus operandi amongst international organisations and institutions, isn't it?

The point I m trying to make is that all these financial institutions have vested interests with regards the whole EU project. Advisory committees, quangos, think tanks(all sorts of baloney). Directly having a major influence when legislation is passed being the main point. The EU sing to the tune of big corporations.

[PeeJay]

The point I m trying to make is that all these financial institutions have vested interests with regards the whole EU project. Advisory committees, quangos, think tanks(all sorts of baloney). Directly having a major influence when legislation is passed being the main point. The EU sing to the tune of big corporations.

Yet, having "vested interests" in a project is not per se a negative aspect, of course financial institutions have an interest in how a project develops, particularly ones in which they are investing capital. UK banks trade heavily in the euro, for example!

What you refer to generally as "baloney" actually has a serious and viable purpose - if you did away with the "baloney" what would you replace it with? Or is it case of: UK baloney good, EU baloney bad :greengrin.

[steakbake]

The point I m trying to make is that all these financial institutions have vested interests with regards the whole EU project. Advisory committees, quangos, think tanks(all sorts of baloney). Directly having a major influence when legislation is passed being the main point. The EU sing to the tune of big corporations.

With the various tax breaks and 'negotiated settlements' with HMRC for how much multinationals should pay in UK tax, we can say exactly the same for the UK Government.

Beyond that, however, I think the EU is a broken institution that needs fixing, or else we wouldn't be in a position where there's a cause looking to leave it.

I'm not going to pretend that an In vote means we will definitely fix it, but a Leave vote will mean we abandon the ship before it's in danger of sinking, miles from safe ground, where all the people manning the life-rafts and encouraging you to jump look like the kind of folks you wouldn't trust to run a piss up in a brewery.

Make no mistake, amid all the bravado of the Leave campaign, this is a right-wing campaign with some isolated voices from the left. The alternative they overwhelmingly propose is a low salary, low taxation, minimal public service economy with minimal employment and legal safeguards. I wouldn't trust Theresa May with developing a British Bill of Rights... certainly wouldn't trust a clown like Boris Johnson running the country overall.

The closer we get to this, the more I remember back to those heady days of the independence referendum. "You won't get into Europe automatically - each country has a veto on new members and Spain won't like it" - even to the point of the Spanish consul having to mumble some comments on a potential veto which would sink the whole idea of a Scotland joining in the EU. Then there was "you'll be forced to join the Euro" or "there'll need to be a border between Scotland and England as you'll need to join Schengen".

Funny how that particular aspect of the EU has been forgotten when the spectres of Turkey and Albania joining the EU have been raised by the leave side. Some of the self-same people telling us (correctly) that all 27 countries have to agree and only one country needs to veto, now are telling us that anyone can just join and that 'they'd' all come here.

I don't need to see bull**** to smell it - despite some reluctance, I'm voting in because for me at least, it's the EU as the only club in town worth being a member of at the moment.

Something better may come along indeed, but not with these jokers.

[mmmmhibby]

With the various tax breaks and 'negotiated settlements' with HMRC for how much multinationals should pay in UK tax, we can say exactly the same for the UK Government.

Beyond that, however, I think the EU is a broken institution that needs fixing, or else we wouldn't be in a position where there's a cause looking to leave it.

I'm not going to pretend that an In vote means we will definitely fix it, but a Leave vote will mean we abandon the ship before it's in danger of sinking, miles from safe ground, where all the people manning the life-rafts and encouraging you to jump look like the kind of folks you wouldn't trust to run a piss up in a brewery.

Make no mistake, amid all the bravado of the Leave campaign, this is a right-wing campaign with some isolated voices from the left. The alternative they overwhelmingly propose is a low salary, low taxation, minimal public service economy with minimal employment and legal safeguards. I wouldn't trust Theresa May with developing a British Bill of Rights... certainly wouldn't trust a clown like Boris Johnson running the country overall.

The closer we get to this, the more I remember back to those heady days of the independence referendum. "You won't get into Europe automatically - each country has a veto on new members and Spain won't like it" - even to the point of the Spanish consul having to mumble some comments on a potential veto which would sink the whole idea of a Scotland joining in the EU. Then there was "you'll be forced to join the Euro" or "there'll need to be a border between Scotland and England as you'll need to join Schengen".

Funny how that particular aspect of the EU has been forgotten when the spectres of Turkey and Albania joining the EU have been raised by the leave side. Some of the self-same people telling us (correctly) that all 27 countries have to agree and only one country needs to veto, now are telling us that anyone can just join and that 'they'd' all come here.

I don't need to see bull**** to smell it - despite some reluctance, I'm voting in because for me at least, it's the EU as the only club in town worth being a member of at the moment.

Something better may come along indeed, but not with these jokers.

Sinking ships, leave vote being right-wing......utter twaddle.

[RyeSloan]

With the various tax breaks and 'negotiated settlements' with HMRC for how much multinationals should pay in UK tax, we can say exactly the same for the UK Government. Beyond that, however, I think the EU is a broken institution that needs fixing, or else we wouldn't be in a position where there's a cause looking to leave it. I'm not going to pretend that an In vote means we will definitely fix it, but a Leave vote will mean we abandon the ship before it's in danger of sinking, miles from safe ground, where all the people manning the life-rafts and encouraging you to jump look like the kind of folks you wouldn't trust to run a piss up in a brewery. Make no mistake, amid all the bravado of the Leave campaign, this is a right-wing campaign with some isolated voices from the left. The alternative they overwhelmingly propose is a low salary, low taxation, minimal public service economy with minimal employment and legal safeguards. I wouldn't trust Theresa May with developing a British Bill of Rights... certainly wouldn't trust a clown like Boris Johnson running the country overall. The closer we get to this, the more I remember back to those heady days of the independence referendum. "You won't get into Europe automatically - each country has a veto on new members and Spain won't like it" - even to the point of the Spanish consul having to mumble some comments on a potential veto which would sink the whole idea of a Scotland joining in the EU. Then there was "you'll be forced to join the Euro" or "there'll need to be a border between Scotland and England as you'll need to join Schengen". Funny how that particular aspect of the EU has been forgotten when the spectres of Turkey and Albania joining the EU have been raised by the leave side. Some of the self-same people telling us (correctly) that all 27 countries have to agree and only one country needs to veto, now are telling us that anyone can just join and that 'they'd' all come here. I don't need to see bull**** to smell it - despite some reluctance, I'm voting in because for me at least, it's the EU as the only club in town worth being a member of at the moment. Something better may come along indeed, but not with these jokers.


Some valid points but I disagree that it's a right wing campaign to leave....although that's a easy call to make when you see some of the figure heads of the campaign (if that makes any sense!)

It's strange though that you agree the EU is broken but would vote to remain, Cameron's 'deal' showed us all that meaningful renegotiation or fixing of the EU is not really possible.

As ever I'm in the no where camp...I like the concept of a common market (although I'm pretty sure the majority of the benefits this brings could be achieved through a 'simple' trade deal) and also the free movement of goods and labour but very much dislike the centralising and undemocratic nature of the EU.

To me the EU has overstepped its reach and is now doing more harm than good, largely due to the fundamentally flawed creation of the single currency and its stated aim of ever increasing political and monetary union. That has set it on a path to economic failure, disenfranchised millions of Europeans for what ultimately appears to be a political ambition rather than anything grounded in desirable outcomes.

That's said the alternative and the cost of the upheaval is very difficult to quantify so understand why people would vote to avoid that.

[steakbake]

Sinking ships, leave vote being right-wing......utter twaddle.

I see you've thought through your response carefully.

[pacoluna]

As much as I admit my ignorance towards the fishing industry, I find it ridiculous that one of the main topic points for the leave campaign is the positive impact it will have on the fishing industry, are people really going to let this "argument" be a base for their decision? I think not

[Hibbyradge]

Here's a translation of an interesting article that Nick Cohen originally wrote for a Norwegian audience, who have no axe to grind in our deliberations.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-leave-britain-worst-worlds-like-norway/

[mmmmhibby]

Here's a translation of an interesting article that Nick Cohen originally wrote for a Norwegian audience, who have no axe to grind in our deliberations.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-leave-britain-worst-worlds-like-norway/

Interesting, heres a more balanced blog he did last year.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/07/does-anybody-still-believe-that-the-eu-is-a-benign-institution/

[Moulin Yarns]

Tell you what, this whole Brexit thing has a lot to answer for


http://newsbiscuit.com/forum/topic.php?id=97729

[Hibrandenburg]

Tell you what, this whole Brexit thing has a lot to answer for


http://newsbiscuit.com/forum/topic.php?id=97729

Isn't naming your baby after a "Pullout" a bit harsh :dunno:

[heretoday]

With people like IDS, Grayling, Gove, Johnson and Farage in the camp, how could anyone sane vote to exit?

IDS is virtually a Nazi.

[Rasta_Hibs]

With people like IDS, Grayling, Gove, Johnson and Farage in the camp, how could anyone sane vote to exit?

IDS is virtually a Nazi.

My paranoid mind often makes me think its a stitch up when you look who heads up the leave campaign. I often hear far more sensible minds talking good reason for leaving but they never get any real airtime compared to the people you mention.

[Moulin Yarns]

My paranoid mind often makes me think its a stitch up when you look who heads up the leave campaign. I often hear far more sensible minds talking good reason for leaving but they never get any real airtime compared to the people you mention.


C'mon, name them and shame them :greengrin

Is one of them Sarah Wollaston by any chance? :wink:

[Holmesdale Hibs]

With people like IDS, Grayling, Gove, Johnson and Farage in the camp, how could anyone sane vote to exit?

IDS is virtually a Nazi.

'Virtually a Nazi'... behave. Please elaborate.

I'm not a big fan of any of those on your list but do you really have a preference for Cameron, Osbourne and Clegg? What about Tony Blair? He is pro-remain and he lied in order to justify an illegal war.

Remain have better spin on their side but that's all it is, they're just as bad.

[Rasta_Hibs]

C'mon, name them and shame them :greengrin

Is one of them Sarah Wollaston by any chance? :wink:

Putin and Trump for starters hehe

[High-On-Hibs]

Does anybody else just not care?

I'm developing an unhealthy hatred for both sides. Both sides have people on it that I really do not trust. I also believe there are politicians who pretend to support one side, while actually supporting the other. Because they know most people will do the opposite of what they say. Take Tory B-liar for example. I'm pretty sure he's desperate for Britain to vote out, which is exactly why he's telling us all to vote in.

[Hibbyradge]

Does anybody else just not care?



I care enormously and I'm very scared about the effect of leaving the EU will have on the economy, on jobs, the NHS, and on pensions.

Brexit will tell you it will all be better, but fail to back that up with ANY data or statistics. In fact, almost every economist on the planet says we'll be hit hard if we leave.

So, yes, I do care.

[High-On-Hibs]

I care enormously and I'm very scared about the effect of leaving the EU will have on the economy, on jobs, the NHS, and on pensions.

Brexit will tell you it will all be better, but fail to back that up with ANY data or statistics. In fact, almost every economist on the planet says we'll be hit hard if we leave.

So, yes, I do care.

Almost every economist on the planet has their own agendas. They have their own finanical interests to protect. I'm not saying that leaving the EU won't have a negative impact. However, I have no doubt that economists with help from their friends in the mainstream media are making it appear as if the effects will be far more devastating than they actually would be. But then.... Scotland has witnessed this crap before.

[Hibbyradge]

Almost every economist on the planet has their own agendas. They have their own finanical interests to protect. I'm not saying that leaving the EU won't have a negative impact. However, I have no doubt that economists with help from their friends in the mainstream media are making appear as if the effects will be far more devastating than they actually would be. But then.... Scotland has witnessed this crap before.

You're a cynical guy.

Why wouldn't the economists with friends in the main stream media which supports leaving, be arguing that we'll be better off?

Given that the electorate is split 50/50 or thereabouts over the issue, why aren't economists views split similarly, if all they're doing is manipulating data to suit their position? :dunno:

[High-On-Hibs]

You're a cynical guy.

Why wouldn't the economists with friends in the main stream media which supports leaving, be arguing that we'll be better off?

Given that the electorate is split 50/50 or thereabouts over the issue, why aren't economists views split similarly, if all they're doing is manipulating data to suit their position? :dunno:

I would say because most economists are in the same boat. The UK remaining in the EU is beneficial to the vast majority of them, as they are feeding out of the same trough.

Again, i'm not stating for one moment that the UK would be better off outside the EU. I actually hope that Scotland votes to remain inside while the rest of the UK votes out (for my own selfish reasons).

However, I have no doubt whatsoever that there are self invested interests at stake for those at the top of the corporate ladder.

[easty]

I would say because most economists are in the same boat. The UK remaining in the EU is beneficial to the vast majority of them, as they are feeding out of the same trough.

Again, i'm not stating for one moment that the UK would be better off outside the EU. I actually hope that Scotland votes to remain inside while the rest of the UK votes out (for my own selfish reasons).

However, I have no doubt whatsoever that there are self invested interests at stake for those at the top of the corporate ladder.

You think economists would have less work if the UK voted for Brexit? Why?

[Hibbyradge]

I would say because most economists are in the same boat. The UK remaining in the EU is beneficial to the vast majority of them, as they are feeding out of the same trough.



I don't want this to descend into an argument, but I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. The same trough?



Again, i'm not stating for one moment that the UK would be better off outside the EU. I actually hope that Scotland votes to remain inside while the rest of the UK votes out (for my own selfish reasons).

So you do care. :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

You think economists would have less work if the UK voted for Brexit? Why?

Economists do work that goes beyond the job description of "economist". Not only are they experts on the economy, they use that experience to make themselves millions every year. If they think anything is going to have a negative impact on the open market, then obviously they're going to want to avoid such an impact. In this case, stopping the UK from leaving the European Union.

The point i'm trying to get across though is that for the average joe that makes up 90% of the general public, the impact would be nowhere near as dreadful as it would be for economic experts who have a lot more to lose.

[High-On-Hibs]

I don't want this to descend into an argument, but I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. The same trough?

They are playing the same financial games from the same open market. Leaving the European Union would have a negative impact on the open market. This would negatively effect all of us. However, the negative impact on the average joe would be nowhere near as severe as the negative impact on economists who have millions of shares invested in the open market at stake. This is why the severeity of leaving the EU is vastly over blown in the media. It wouldn't be anywhere near as bad for most of us as they are making out. Although, it would still be a blow non the less.

I'm not getting into an arguement either, as there is really nothing to argue about. :wink:

I only care enough to discuss it over a football forum website with people I don't know. :wink:

[RyeSloan]

I care enormously and I'm very scared about the effect of leaving the EU will have on the economy, on jobs, the NHS, and on pensions. Brexit will tell you it will all be better, but fail to back that up with ANY data or statistics. In fact, almost every economist on the planet says we'll be hit hard if we leave. So, yes, I do care.

Urm dunno what economists you have been reading but that statement is a bit of hyperbole I would suggest.

Most balanced assessments seem to suggest that there is some gains and some losses but overall the impact, after the initial volatility, would probably be negligible and certainly nothing like the nonsense produced by the Treasury and the IMF.

This provides some sort of flavour as to why that might be the case:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/comment/article-3451621/Neil-Woodford-lays-economics-Brexit.html

[Hibbyradge]

Economists do work that goes beyond the job description of "economist". Not only are they experts on the economy, they use that experience to make themselves millions every year. If they think anything is going to have a negative impact on the open market, then obviously they're going to want to avoid such an impact. In this case, stopping the UK from leaving the European Union.

The point i'm trying to get across though is that for the average joe that makes up 90% of the general public, the impact would be nowhere near as dreadful as it would be for economic experts who have a lot more to lose.

What does an Economist lecturer have to lose? Or someoine who works for the Green Party? :confused:

http://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/careers-advice/what-can-you-do-economics-degree

[mmmmhibby]

They are playing the same financial games from the same open market. Leaving the European Union would have a negative impact on the open market. This would negatively effect all of us. However, the negative impact on the average joe would be nowhere near as severe as the negative impact on economists who have millions of shares invested in the open market at stake. This is why the severeity of leaving the EU is vastly over blown in the media. It wouldn't be anywhere near as bad for most of us as they are making out. Although, it would still be a blow non the less.

I'm not getting into an arguement either, as there is really nothing to argue about. :wink:

I only care enough to discuss it over a football forum website with people I don't know. :wink:

Spot on, there was 600 replies from 4000 economists on the EU question. Hardly a balanced return, however 88% of that 600 backed remain. Vested interests, gravy train etc etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

Spot on, there was 600 replies from 4000 economists on the EU question. Hardly a balanced return, however 88% of that 600 backed remain. Vested interests, gravy train etc etc.

Or just looking at the figures and the case for and against and coming up with a consensus that we would be hit hard, financially, if we vote to leave.

How many were asked the question? 600? or 4000?

Anyway, the only way to make an informed decision is to do some research, not listen to the crap coming from both sides.

so here is a piece, genuinely put together impartially

http://www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk/britains-decision/

[Hibrandenburg]

They are playing the same financial games from the same open market. Leaving the European Union would have a negative impact on the open market. This would negatively effect all of us. However, the negative impact on the average joe would be nowhere near as severe as the negative impact on economists who have millions of shares invested in the open market at stake. This is why the severeity of leaving the EU is vastly over blown in the media. It wouldn't be anywhere near as bad for most of us as they are making out. Although, it would still be a blow non the less.

I'm not getting into an arguement either, as there is really nothing to argue about. :wink:

I only care enough to discuss it over a football forum website with people I don't know. :wink:

If those who have the wealth and power are hit hard in their pockets, you can bet they'll ensure their losses stay at a minimum whilst "the average Joe" foots the bill. If those who understand the economy best are at risk then God help the rest of us. Sorry mate, your argument doesn't add up.

[Moulin Yarns]

If those who have the wealth and power are hit hard in their pockets, you can bet they'll ensure their losses stay at a minimum whilst "the average Joe" foots the bill. If those who understand the economy best are at risk then God help the rest of us. Sorry mate, your argument doesn't add up.

From the Hunter Foundation


The consensus within the UK financial services industry is, all the evidence shows, that leaving the EU will be costly, disruptive and damaging.

All things considered, if one were voting purely in in the interests of the financial services industry and its employees (and few people will be), one would vote to remain in the EU and then, cathartically invigorated, deploy the UK's unequalled expertise in financial services in shaping the EU market for the better. That seems to offer the best prospect for the continued success of the industry.

[mmmmhibby]

Or just looking at the figures and the case for and against and coming up with a consensus that we would be hit hard, financially, if we vote to leave.

How many were asked the question? 600? or 4000?

Anyway, the only way to make an informed decision is to do some research, not listen to the crap coming from both sides.

so here is a piece, genuinely put together impartially

http://www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk/britains-decision/

I Have done my research and made my decision. Its gonna be interesting, however the bookies are rarely wrong and they have Remain favourite.

[Jonnyboy]

Does anybody else just not care?

I'm developing an unhealthy hatred for both sides. Both sides have people on it that I really do not trust. I also believe there are politicians who pretend to support one side, while actually supporting the other. Because they know most people will do the opposite of what they say. Take Tory B-liar for example. I'm pretty sure he's desperate for Britain to vote out, which is exactly why he's telling us all to vote in.

Euro elections always attract a notoriously low turnout. Be interesting to see if that's the case with this referendum

[grunt]

However, the negative impact on the average joe would be nowhere near as severe as the negative impact on economists who have millions of shares invested in the open market at stake. This is why the severeity of leaving the EU is vastly over blown in the media. It wouldn't be anywhere near as bad for most of us as they are making out. Although, it would still be a blow non the less.

Anyone with a modern day money purchase pension will have money invested in shares, whether they realise it or not. A negative impact on the stock market affects many more people than market traders and billionaires like Warburton and Whyte.