Brexit Referendum

[pacoluna]

Take whatever comfort you need!

I will, in that this without a doubt is a material change in circumstances that will lead to a second Scottish referendum :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

Rasta, an honest question, what line of work are you in? and how do you feel it will be affected by the UK being outside the EU?

My job relies heavily on current EU legislation to function properly and if any of it is repealed then it will make it more difficult to make informed decisions and enforce.

Same for me.

My work trades almost solely with EU countries, outwith the UK, both buying and selling. It's nigh on impossible for us to replace those ties with the likes of Australia or Canada.

In the medium term I am genuinely worried for my job.

[Vault Boy]

Read before the referendum that 2.5m British jobs are directly reliant on the EU and a further 1m+ are indirectly dependent. Not sure on the statistic, but my thoughts go out to anyone who might face jeopardy because of this. Especially if it's not a reflection of your vote. All the best out there.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I will, in that this without a doubt is a material change in circumstances that will lead to a second Scottish referendum :greengrin

I think there should be a new indy ref as it's only fair from the false promise of vote No and stay in EU.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Rasta, an honest question, what line of work are you in? and how do you feel it will be affected by the UK being outside the EU?

My job relies heavily on current EU legislation to function properly and if any of it is repealed then it will make it more difficult to make informed decisions and enforce.

I should really ask you where will you go now since you lost the vote - im sure that was the question you said to me! :P

But im just kidding.

I work for a global visual communications company, import and export worldwide.

[RyeSloan]

Same for me. My work trades almost solely with EU countries, outwith the UK, both buying and selling. It's nigh on impossible for us to replace those ties with the likes of Australia or Canada. In the medium term I am genuinely worried for my job.

I get your concern but it will still be possible to trade with the EU! The rest of the world manages to do so pretty effectively if all the non European products in the shops are anything to go by so it's not a case of that trade having to be replaced, it will simply be on amended terms.

[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting times


[URLhttp://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/a-brexit-could-make-it-easier-for-scotland-to-join-the-eu-as-an-independent-state/[/URL]

[easty]

Interesting times


[URLhttp://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/a-brexit-could-make-it-easier-for-scotland-to-join-the-eu-as-an-independent-state/[/URL]

But I thought we'd have to wait in line behind Turkey for years and years and years first, no?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

This thread hasnae gone too well for our resident experts, well worth following though. :-)

[High-On-Hibs]

Thats not true. Come on.

The EU is fundementally different to what we joined. The European Union was created specifically to extend the european project beyond a single market (thays why it ceased to be the EEC)

Then most of it became a single currency union. And it has constantly expanded, and continues to expand.

You are being disingenuous

And i though european commission directibes were binding on our parliament?

Most of it became a single currency union, because all of the countries involved signed up to it. The UK decided it wasn't for us so stuck with the pound. We had that choice. All this nonsense from the Brexit campaign about evil faceless Eurocrats taking over our country was complete rubbish. They were the real project fear, which is exactly why they won.


More groundless bluster

Where is the funding and skills going to come from? Without the single market and a new leader who will be determined to pull down the cage over this island, where is it going to come from?

Put your fingers in your ears and convince yourself that it's bluster, but you're just refusing to accept reality.

[Moulin Yarns]

But I thought we'd have to wait in line behind Turkey for years and years and years first, no?


:agree: If we wanted to join rather than remaIN. This could be the game changer.

I haven't read the Articles it mentions (48, 49 and 50) but the piece appears to lay out a good case if it is all covered in those articles.

[twiceinathens]

And in the meantime the prospect of Trump, Putin, Kim Jong Un and Boris Johnston holding power at the same time looms ever larger. Combined with IS and Chinese territorial disputes we could be in for a lot of grief and conflict.

[easty]

And in the meantime the prospect of Trump, Putin, Kim Jong Un and Boris Johnston holding power at the same time looms ever larger. Combined with IS and Chinese territorial disputes we could be in for a lot of grief and conflict.

When you put it like that, I'm half expecting James Bond to be working away in the shadows to solve some evil world takeover conspiracy.

[Sergio sledge]

Rasta, an honest question, what line of work are you in? and how do you feel it will be affected by the UK being outside the EU?

My job relies heavily on current EU legislation to function properly and if any of it is repealed then it will make it more difficult to make informed decisions and enforce.

Probably 75% of my job is reliant on the EU in some way. A lot of my job is helping companies comply with energy related legislation brought in on te back of EU directives. We also help distribute EU funding for energy efficiency projects to eligible recipients.

Short term we'll be ok as the legislation is still in place at the minute and the funding will be as well until we exit the EU, but there is a real uncertainty for businesses and they may be inclined to hold off with any major capital projects or even hold off with compliance until they know what their business will be like after brexit and whether the UK government will still continue with the legislation when they are not mandated to by the EU.

It is a big worry here for me and my colleagues.

[mmmmhibby]

The currency market is extremely sensetive to change and the result reflects this but it will climb back up quickly.

True, the economy is based on GDP of the country so short term fall in the pound wont change our economy ranking in the long run. How come the CAC40 in france is down more than the FTSE today?

[Moulin Yarns]

Probably 75% of my job is reliant on the EU in some way. A lot of my job is helping companies comply with energy related legislation brought in on te back of EU directives. We also help distribute EU funding for energy efficiency projects to eligible recipients.

Short term we'll be ok as the legislation is still in place at the minute and the funding will be as well until we exit the EU, but there is a real uncertainty for businesses and they may be inclined to hold off with any major capital projects or even hold off with compliance until they know what their business will be like after brexit and whether the UK government will still continue with the legislation when they are not mandated to by the EU.

It is a big worry here for me and my colleagues.

Thanks, that pretty much sums up how I see it as well.

In other news, The UK credit rating is being revised down, so not good news for investments either.


Anyway, here is a wee story to cheer folks up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-36605619

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Has anyone checked to see if Hibbyradge is ok? He seems to have vanished.

[pacoluna]

A Government Scotland didn't elect held a referendum we didn't want, which is now removing us from the EU against our will. Its a democratic deficit :furious:

[Mon Dieu4]

Gove cant even put on a tie straight, why the hell did anyone listen to that plum

[SHODAN]

A Government Scotland didn't elect held a referendum we didn't want, which is now removing us form the EU against our will. Its a democratic deficit :furious:

Constitutional crisis anyone?

[degenerated]

I think you're perhaps overstating the analysis of many leave voters, I would be surprised if a lot hadn't based it on the shape of bananas, good old British common sense, immigration, imperial measurements and a hankering for the good old days of the colonies.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you're perhaps overstating the analysis of many leave voters, I would be surprised if a lot hadn't based it on the shape of bananas, good old British common sense, immigration, imperial measurements and a hankering for the good old days of the colonies.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Crumbly power strikes again!

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

[BroxburnHibee]

"Independence referendum now highly likely"

:rolleyes:

[PeeJay]

A Government Scotland didn't elect held a referendum we didn't want, which is now removing us form the EU against our will. Its a democratic deficit :furious:

Scotland had a referendum and elected to stay part of the UK. The UK government held a referendum and the UK electorate has elected to leave the EU - what part of this is not democratic? Just because you don't like a result of a democratic vote doesn't mean there is a democratic deficit?

[Hibbyradge]

"Independence referendum now highly likely"

:rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36621030

[DaveF]

"Independence referendum now highly likely"

:rolleyes:

No shock there. Big gamble though as not sure too many doubters who voted No the last time will have the courage or conviction to change their minds.

[HappyAsHellas]

I think you're perhaps overstating the analysis of many leave voters, I would be surprised if a lot hadn't based it on the shape of bananas, good old British common sense, immigration, imperial measurements and a hankering for the good old days of the colonies.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Someone disagrees with you therefore = moron. My, but you're clever.

[pacoluna]

sturgeon - arrangements being put in place to prepare for 2nd referendum within 2 years :aok:

[Pretty Boy]

Crumbly power strikes again!

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

A breakdown on the turnout in each category would be interesting. I'd wager yet again it will be highest amongst the older generations who actually get off their erses and go out and vote.

[pacoluna]

Scotland had a referendum and elected to stay part of the UK. The UK government held a referendum and the UK electorate has elected to leave the EU - what part of this is not democratic? Just because you don't like a result of a democratic vote doesn't mean there is a democratic deficit?
You make it sound so simple - not that there has been a tidal change of circumstances or anything.:rolleyes:
Scottish public were clearly mislead with regards to EU membership in Indyref 1

[stantonhibby]

sturgeon - arrangements being put in place to prepare for 2nd referendum within 2 years :aok:

Hmmm.......will be interesting to see the economic argument for that given the current oil price.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i liked david cameron, think he was a bit hasty with his resignation (imo) maybe he will do a 'farage' and withdraw his resignation :)

[JeMeSouviens]

Hmmm.......will be interesting to see the economic argument for that given the current oil price.

I wonder if they've made any progress on a plan for a Scottish currency as well?

There are opportunities though - Provide a haven in the EU for relocating inward investors? Could Edinburgh get a boost as an EU financial centre close to London?

[JeMeSouviens]

A breakdown on the turnout in each category would be interesting. I'd wager yet again it will be highest amongst the older generations who actually get off their erses and go out and vote.

Almost certainly. :agree:

[BroxburnHibee]

Hmmm.......will be interesting to see the economic argument for that given the current oil price.

Yep it's certainly not cut and dry.

I'm not convinced the UK parliament will sanction another referendum so what options would there be for her?

[JeMeSouviens]

Scotland had a referendum and elected to stay part of the UK. The UK government held a referendum and the UK electorate has elected to leave the EU[/FONT] - [FONT=century gothic]what part of this is not democratic? Just because you don't like a result of a democratic vote doesn't mean there is a democratic deficit?

What you say is of course 100% correct. However:

1. we were sold a pup by Better Together:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/608E/production/_90081742_indy7.png

2. The No side made a big deal of Scotland's distinctiveness as a nation not being compromised by the Union. I think that's total pish and we consigned ourselves to being just another region but you can't deny people were misled on that point.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yep it's certainly not cut and dry.

I'm not convinced the UK parliament will sanction another referendum so what options would there be for her?

Hold one anyway (a consultative referendum) and see if the UK will really ignore the outcome. Legally fine but politically extremely difficult for them.

[NYHibby]

Yep it's certainly not cut and dry.

I'm not convinced the UK parliament will sanction another referendum so what options would there be for her?

Unilateral independence which she didn't completely rule out with her pursue all options comments.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hold one anyway (a consultative referendum) and see if the UK will really ignore the outcome. Legally fine but politically extremely difficult for them.

Is that not what Catalunia did recently?

[BroxburnHibee]

Unilateral independence which she didn't completely rule out with her pursue all options comments.

I was actually quite impressed with how she spoke (whether you agree with the content or not).

She was infinitely better than Johnson/Gove earlier.

[PeeJay]

You make it sound so simple - not that there has been a tidal change of circumstances or anything.:rolleyes:
Scottish public were clearly mislead with regards to EU membership in Indyref 1

You make it sound so simple:greengrin: you claim you were mislead - yet quite how is beyond me. A referendum doesn't always go the way one wants ... I still see no evidence of a democratic deficit?

[Holmesdale Hibs]

It'll be interesting to see how the other parties respond to the Indy question as well. What's everyone's thoughts?

[cabbageandribs1875]

a couple of senior labour mp's have tabled a motion of no confidence in corbyn

[NYHibby]

I was actually quite impressed with how she spoke (whether you agree with the content or not).

She was infinitely better than Johnson/Gove earlier.

While I agree with you, she did give herself wiggle room with her usage of Parliament. There was intentional vagueness in a place or two on whether she was referring to Westminster or Holyrood. Most notably on which Parliament decides on if a referendum will be held.

[BroxburnHibee]

While I agree with you, she did give herself wiggle room with her usage of Parliament. There was intentional vagueness in a place or two on whether she was referring to Westminster or Holyrood. Most notably on which Parliament decides on if a referendum will be held.

I didn't think it was vague. As I see it as First minister she will need permission from the Scottish Parliament (which she'll get) and then she will negotiate a position with the UK parliament. I'm not convinced they will allow it so it's what happens then which interests me.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is that not what Catalunia did recently?

Yes, sort of. The Spanish court declared it illegal to hold one so the turnout was low and hence the result was ignorable.

In Scotland it would be legal. There is a chance the No side would boycott though, so turnout would have to be very high. But it is an option.

tbh, I think Westminster will allow another vote as blocking one if public opinion here supports holding one would be extremely difficult for them. What if the SNP withdrew from Westminster? That would leave Scotland with 3 representatives in the commons.

Interesting times for sure.

[Betty Boop]

Nah not for me, I'm all referendumed out.

[NYHibby]

I didn't think it was vague. As I see it as First minister she will need permission from the Scottish Parliament (which she'll get) and then she will negotiate a position with the UK parliament. I'm not convinced they will allow it so it's what happens then which interests me.

While that is a perfectly legitimate interpretation, her comment is vague because it is not the only interpretation. You could read it as the UK Parliament needs to approve it or that the Scottish Parliament could hold one on its own.

Like she said herself, she spoke in a way to keep all options open.

[pacoluna]

What you say is of course 100% correct. However:

1. we were sold a pup by Better Together:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/608E/production/_90081742_indy7.png

2. The No side made a big deal of Scotland's distinctiveness as a nation not being compromised by the Union. I think that's total pish and we consigned ourselves to being just another region but you can't deny people were misled on that point.

That really p*sses me off, I'm becoming more ageist by the minute.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Most of it became a single currency union, because all of the countries involved signed up to it. The UK decided it wasn't for us so stuck with the pound. We had that choice. All this nonsense from the Brexit campaign about evil faceless Eurocrats taking over our country was complete rubbish. They were the real project fear, which is exactly why they won.



Where is the funding and skills going to come from? Without the single market and a new leader who will be determined to pull down the cage over this island, where is it going to come from?

Put your fingers in your ears and convince yourself that it's bluster, but you're just refusing to accept reality.


Wow, you are delusional.

The remain side ran just as much fear as the leave side (terrorism, punishment budgets ring any bells?)

The skills for the nhs will come from the same places they do at the moment - you do understand that immigration will still happen?

And you do know that the nhs isnt funded by the eu right? The dunding for the nhs (already under enormous pressure) will come drom our taxes as it does at the moment. Incidentally our annual eu gees would nearly pay for scotlands entire nhs for a year.

I voted remain too, but making up hysterical nonsense doesnt help anyone. The world will not end because we left. And you are wrong, the single market will not pull a cage down.

Speaking of faceleas eurocrats, do you think peopke know who oir unelected commissioners are? Or the civil servants in 27 other member states who dictate the agendas of the presidencies? Even eu supporters acknowledge the democratic deficit that exists.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A Government Scotland didn't elect held a referendum we didn't want, which is now removing us from the EU against our will. Its a democratic deficit :furious:

We elect parliaments, not governments. And scotland did elect it.

[Hibbyradge]

https://youtu.be/Jy-m1NSUmOY

https://s31.postimg.org/gq35oqx0r/79d96cbc_c52f_44d7_96a4_7d056a1f2e0e.jpg

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I wonder if they've made any progress on a plan for a Scottish currency as well?

There are opportunities though - Provide a haven in the EU for relocating inward investors? Could Edinburgh get a boost as an EU financial centre close to London?

This has to be the plan surely - try and attract eu based jobs from multinationals already operating here.

[Hibbyradge]

We elect parliaments, not governments. And scotland did elect it.

Semantics.

Scotland did not vote for a Tory government and it certainly didn't vote for a Tory government which would gamble the coutry's future with an in/out referendum in order to calm internal division.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Semantics.

Scotland did not vote for a Tory government and it certainly didn't vote for a Tory government which would gamble the coutry's future with an in/out referendum in order to calm internal division.


Our parliamentary democracy is semantics?

We voted clearly to be part of the uk. The uk government acted, and the people have decided.

What you are saying is akin to ignoring a democratic result because it didnt go the way you voted.

There areany frustrations with the result, but trying to undermine the legitimacy of the vote is just sour grapes.

Incidentally, how does sturgeon have legitimacy to call indyref 2 as a minority of Scots voted for her and her party?

[High-On-Hibs]

Our parliamentary democracy is semantics?

We voted clearly to be part of the uk. The uk government acted, and the people have decided.

What you are saying is akin to ignoring a democratic result because it didnt go the way you voted.

There areany frustrations with the result, but trying to undermine the legitimacy of the vote is just sour grapes.

Incidentally, how does sturgeon have legitimacy to call indyref 2 as a minority of Scots voted for her and her party?

A minority of Brits voted for the Conservative Party, which led to an EU referendum in the first place. I'm quite sure people voted to remain in the UK for more than just merely "wanting to stay in the UK". People voted to remain inside, because they were genuinely concerned about Scotland losing its place in the EU, they were genuinely concerned about losing the pound. They were genuinely concerned about cuts to public funding such as education and the NHS.

Well they won't be feeling so concerned now. Because all the things they were concerned about in the event of leaving the UK are all happening anyway.

Choose to ignore it if you wish. But you're fighting a losing battle in all of this.

[Moulin Yarns]

This has to be the plan surely - try and attract eu based jobs from multinationals already operating here.

Or sit back and listen while they all withdraw from the UK



The chief executive of Airbus has some forthright comments on the Leave outcome.

It's "a lose-lose result for both, Britain and Europe", says Tom Enders, boss of the world's second largest aircraft maker.
"I hope the divorce will proceed with a view on minimising economic damage to all impacted by the Brexit," he says.
"Britain will suffer," he goes on to warn, before adding: "Of course we will review our UK investment strategy, like everybody else will."



Sources within Morgan Stanley say it has already begun the process of moving about 2,000 of its London-based investment banking staff to Dublin or Frankfurt. And it has a taskforce in place.
The jobs which would be moved from the UK would be in euro clearing but also other investment banking functions and senior management.
The American investment bank needs to avail of the passporting system which allows banks to offer financial services in all countries in the EU without having to establish a permanent base in that member state.
The president of Morgan Stanley, Colm Kelleher, told Bloomberg two days ago that Brexit would be “the most consequential thing that we’ve ever seen since the war”.

[JeMeSouviens]

Our parliamentary democracy is semantics?

We voted clearly to be part of the uk. The uk government acted, and the people have decided.

What you are saying is akin to ignoring a democratic result because it didnt go the way you voted.

There areany frustrations with the result, but trying to undermine the legitimacy of the vote is just sour grapes.

Incidentally, how does sturgeon have legitimacy to call indyref 2 as a minority of Scots voted for her and her party?

She will put it to the Scottish Parliament where she doesn't have a majority and it will only succeed if she can attract majority support.

SNP + Green would be a majority of both the parliament and electorate, I think.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A minority of Brits voted for the Conservative Party, which led to an EU referendum in the first place. I'm quite sure people voted to remain in the UK for more than just merely "wanting to stay in the UK". People voted to remain inside, because they were genuinely concerned about Scotland losing its place in the EU, they were genuinely concerned about losing the pound. They were genuinely concerned about cuts to public funding such as education and the NHS.

Well they won't be feeling so concerned now. Because all the things they were concerned about in the event of leaving the UK are all happening anyway.

Choose to ignore it if you wish. But you're fighting a losing battle in all of this.


Im not fighting a battle - im merely debunking your hysterical rants. Just saying things doesnt mean they are right.

I do not doubt that the EU threat swung some towards no in the indyref, but i think most were concerned about borders, the euro, and the snps economic illiteracy.

Regardless many if those issues would remain, and fiven the economic case was made on pretty spurious oil price forecasts anyway, that case is a helluva lot weaker now. And the euro isnt that appealing.

You are stating things as fact that virtually NOBoDY knows the answer to.

Your like a ball of frothing energy spitting your rage everywhere but getting it completely wrong

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

She will put it to the Scottish Parliament where she doesn't have a majority and it will only succeed if she can attract majority support.

SNP + Green would be a majority of both the parliament and electorate, I think.

Exactly my point.

Parliamment decides, not the government.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Or sit back and listen while they all withdraw from the UK

Maybe - im sure some will.

[Moulin Yarns]

Im not fighting a battle - im merely debunking your hysterical rants. Just saying things doesnt mean they are right.

I do not doubt that the EU threat swung some towards no in the indyref, but i think most were concerned about borders, the euro, and the snps economic illiteracy.

Regardless many if those issues would remain, and fiven the economic case was made on pretty spurious oil price forecasts anyway, that case is a helluva lot weaker now. And the euro isnt that appealing.

You are stating things as fact that virtually NOBoDY knows the answer to.

Your like a ball of frothing energy spitting your rage everywhere but getting it completely wrong

Debunk!!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/16/scotland-oil-price-slump-snp-forecasts-critics


Even without oil, Scotland’s GDP per head is less than 1% lower than the rest of the UK’s. Scotland is simply fortunate that it is one of only a favoured few countries that possess oil wealth, which has, at various points over the last 40-odd years, been, by turn, gargantuan, merely massive or disappointingly plentiful, as it is now. What is more, in its volatile history you can no more accurately predict the price of a barrel of oil than divine how many clean gold medals will be won at an Olympic Games.

This is how Alistair Darling described oil in 2008: “The trouble with oil is that it’s a tremendously volatile diminishing asset.” In the same year, the Telegraph predicted that North Sea oil would last for another century. A year later, the newspaper had revised that figure down a tad. “Collapsing oil revenue will turn the whole UK into a banana republic,” it warned.


We can only wonder what Scotland would have looked like if successive Labour and Tory governments hadn’t concealed the 1974 McCrone report, which stated that North Sea oil receipts would have made an independent Scotland the second richest country in Europe. Instead, Margaret Thatcher used it to pay off a viable coal industry and now her acolytes ridicule us for being naive about what remains.

[speedy_gonzales]

A minority of Brits voted for the Conservative Party, which led to an EU referendum in the first place.
Re the "minority" bit, the same could be said about most democracies.
Only 66.1% of the electorate decided to vote in 2015, over a third of the seats were won by Tory. Under our first past the post rules, that was some result for them and I believe they had a mandate, or at least it was in their manifesto to hold an EU referendum to put those UKIPers in their place so their hands was forced.
Looks like it didn't go the way expected for some in the party.

[Moulin Yarns]

Now things are becoming a bit calmer, what should I do with my fortune? Invest in property? here or abroad? Keep it under the floorboards? Diamonds? It certainly looks as if the banks are no longer a decent bet.

[mmmmhibby]

Or sit back and listen while they all withdraw from the UK

Morgan Stanley deny moving jobs link below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/morgan-stanley-brexit-eu-referendum-jobs-dublin-frankfurt-a7100911.html

[mmmmhibby]

Now things are becoming a bit calmer, what should I do with my fortune? Invest in property? here or abroad? Keep it under the floorboards? Diamonds? It certainly looks as if the banks are no longer a decent bet.

Put it on us to win the championship, seriously, lol.

[steakbake]

Let's pop this balloon now.

The number of votes cast in an election are the number of votes cast. It's not a percentage of the total electorate: if they did not show up, their vote does not count.

Weasel politicians use it either way to support their arguments, but if 40% of people voted for the Blue Cheese Party of the electorate who turned up to vote, that's 40% of the votes. Not 30whatever of the total electorate to undermine people's authority - what if everyone turned up and they got 50% or more.

People will only cop on about the point of democracy if their vote is deemed to matter. Politicians and commentators who split hairs over the actual number of people who voted are aiding and abetting people's complacency.

ON indyref2, yes - you bet this is absolutely on. There is a lot of slipperiness in Ruth Davidson's position. Dugdale is very quiet today as are some of the LibDems. This is a material change in circumstances after a prolonged iScotland campaign in which the uncertainty of our future status in the EU outside of the UK was at stake and was a central campaigning issue for the No side. That is now gone, despite the majority of people in Scotland voting to stay in.

The only way I think an indyref2 can now be avoided is if the Scottish Government can secure successor state status within the EU. I suspect, given the messages from the EU today that the timetable is immediate, that they may emerge with some form of deal to secure our status. That may be the proposition on the ballot - to remain with the UK outside of the EU, or to remain in the EU outside of the UK.

Ironically, the choice being do we join a larger trading, economic, social union of 26 other countries or do we remain within a small union of 3.

You don't have to be a "Nat" to see which is the most sensible option.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Now things are becoming a bit calmer, what should I do with my fortune? Invest in property? here or abroad? Keep it under the floorboards? Diamonds? It certainly looks as if the banks are no longer a decent bet.

Silver went up 10% today. If you foresee Armageddon then precious metals usually do well. Property is very cyclic, the market is at or near a peak just now and if Brexit doesn't crash it then something else will. So as another poster suggested, sticking it on Hibs winning the championship is worth a punt although you're 'invested' in that already.

[RyeSloan]

Let's pop this balloon now. The number of votes cast in an election are the number of votes cast. It's not a percentage of the total electorate: if they did not show up, their vote does not count. Weasel politicians use it either way to support their arguments, but if 40% of people voted for the Blue Cheese Party of the electorate who turned up to vote, that's 40% of the votes. Not 30whatever of the total electorate to undermine people's authority - what if everyone turned up and they got 50% or more. People will only cop on about the point of democracy if their vote is deemed to matter. Politicians and commentators who split hairs over the actual number of people who voted are aiding and abetting people's complacency. ON indyref2, yes - you bet this is absolutely on. There is a lot of slipperiness in Ruth Davidson's position. Dugdale is very quiet today as are some of the LibDems. This is a material change in circumstances after a prolonged iScotland campaign in which the uncertainty of our future status in the EU outside of the UK was at stake and was a central campaigning issue for the No side. That is now gone, despite the majority of people in Scotland voting to stay in. The only way I think an indyref2 can now be avoided is if the Scottish Government can secure successor state status within the EU. I suspect, given the messages from the EU today that the timetable is immediate, that they may emerge with some form of deal to secure our status. That may be the proposition on the ballot - to remain with the UK outside of the EU, or to remain in the EU outside of the UK. Ironically, the choice being do we join a larger trading, economic, social union of 26 other countries or do we remain within a small union of 3. You don't have to be a "Nat" to see which is the most sensible option.

I agree with the majority of your post but he last part is interesting...the majority of our trade is done with that 'union of 3' so really the question should really be why would you leave a currency and political union with your biggest trading partners to join a political union with 26 others (while retaining a currency union with the '3')?

[HappyAsHellas]

Are the financial gurus everyone is quoting today the same people the majority wanted hanging from lamp posts nationwide a few years ago?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Disgusted, appalled, furious. We need to get out of this mess and apply for EU membership independently. I want an outward looking, optimistic country.

[ronaldo7]

I'm glad Nicola started her statement with this...

17013

[mmmmhibby]

I'm glad Nicola started her statement with this...

17013

The problem is with the EU hierarchy, not Europeans.

[Pretty Boy]

The problem is with the EU hierarchy, not Europeans.

The reaction to that quote on social media would suggest to some, a very vocal some, that that isn't the case.

The rampant xenophobia doing the rounds is frankly disgusting.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's encouraging that a lot of staunch no voters on this board have now said that they would vote yes.

[High-On-Hibs]

Some of the comments coming from brexiters in the main stream media are deeply deeply worrying and have hints of 1930's far right Germany written all over it.

I'm deeply concerned that we're in for some extremely challenging times. I can see things getting real ugly over the next few years.

[JeMeSouviens]

The problem is with the EU hierarchy, not Europeans.

Yeah right. It's the EU hierarchy coming over ere, swampin our country, taking our jobs! :rolleyes:

[High-On-Hibs]

Yeah right. It's the EU hierarchy coming over ere, swampin our country, taking our jobs! :rolleyes:

Cutting our public services..... tax credits and tax contributions from the most privileged.

It's those faceless Eurocrats I tell you!

[Pretty Boy]

Yeah right. It's the EU hierarchy coming over ere, swampin our country, taking our jobs! :rolleyes:

There's a cracker of a video from Sky News of a woman explaining why she voted leave:

'I voted out because Poles are coming here taking all the jobs, it's not righ that the person next door or myself or that can't get a job because the Poles are getting them all'

Reporter - 'Has that happened to you? Did you miss out on a job to a Polish person'

Woman - 'no, not to me because I don't work and I haven't gone for any jobs but if I did that's probably what would happen.'

[Hibrandenburg]

The reaction to that quote on social media would suggest to some, a very vocal some, that that isn't the case.

The rampant xenophobia doing the rounds is frankly disgusting.

I'm not easily shocked but your dead on the money with this. The xenophobic euphoria is akin to a feeding frenzy on my social media. I feel a little sorry for those who voted out without a xenophobic agenda but if you fly with the crows............

[High-On-Hibs]

The thing that I find most bizarre are those who said they backed Brexit to stick it to Cameron and the Westminster establishment. Absolutely zero logic in that argument what so ever. Westminster on a whole will be delighted with this result.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not easily shocked but your dead on the money with this. The xenophobic euphoria is akin to a feeding frenzy on my social media. I feel a little sorry for those who voted out without a xenophobic agenda but if you fly with the crows............

:agree:

It's been a good excercise for a clear out of my Facebook friends list and Twitter followed though. There are a few people I classified as friends who have said things that makes me want absolutely nothing to do with them ever again.

[heretoday]

So if Scotland goes Indy, which it probably will, and successfully applies to join the EU, does that mean we'll get 350,000 folk a year coming here?

Where are we going to house them and how can we educate their kids and look after their health?

[High-On-Hibs]

So if Scotland goes Indy, which it probably will, and successfully applies to join the EU, does that mean we'll get 350,000 folk a year coming here?

No.

Scotland has been a member of the European Union for 43 years and our population hasn't grown that much in the entirety of that time.

Besides, if we did get an influx of immigrants, it would be a result of English people escaping the new xenophobic regime under Boris.

[ronaldo7]

I wonder who's going to fire the starting gun on Article 50?

Cameron said he'll leave it to the next Tory pwick, and Juncker wants it to start now.

Gove and Boris have their heads down, as they've not got a Scooby what to do next.

[johnbc70]

No.

Scotland has been a member of the European Union for 43 years and our population hasn't grown that much in the entirety of that time.

Besides, if we did get an influx of immigrants, it would be a result of English people escaping the new xenophobic regime under Boris.

Yes but before immigrants had a choice, but if England is no longer an option then can we expect to see a significant increase in Scotland assuming an Indy Yes and EU Yes scenario.

[Pretty Boy]

Yes but before immigrants had a choice, but if England is no longer an option then can we expect to see a significant increase in Scotland assuming an Indy Yes and EU Yes scenario.

We would probably need an increase in immigration if such a scenario unfolds. Not a 350k increase of course but that's highly unlikely anyway.

[Sir David Gray]

55% turnout in Falkirk. Quite low.

Turnout was 67.5% in Falkirk.

[grunt]

So if Scotland goes Indy, which it probably will, and successfully applies to join the EU, does that mean we'll get 350,000 folk a year coming here? Where are we going to house them and how can we educate their kids and look after their health?They will help us build houses and schools, they will work in our schools and hospitals and they will help us look after ours, and their health. They are just people, like us.

[High-On-Hibs]

Yes but before immigrants had a choice, but if England is no longer an option then can we expect to see a significant increase in Scotland assuming an Indy Yes and EU Yes scenario.

Our economy would have to be performing astonishingly well before we came anywhere near to having an issue of an over load of immigrants. There are currently better options in the EU than Scotland for EU migrants to work and settle down. We should also not lose sight of the fact that the open door policy works both ways. Being able to go to the likes of Germany, France, Denmark and Sweden, not just for skilled work but to experience different cultures as well is a major strength in my view. I really don't see Scotland having an issue with too much immigration to be honest.

[Sir David Gray]

I can't bear looking at the newspapers today, To make things worse I work in annuities - there will be an endless stream of people with inquiries/cashing in policies etc :boo hoo:

I work with pensions and I was expecting it to be heaving today when I went in at 9am.

I couldn't have been more wrong - it was dead all day and one of the quietest days I've had in a long time!

[Pete]

Turnout was 67.5% in Falkirk.

Must have given out the wrong info last night.

[ronaldo7]

They will help us build houses and schools, they will work in our schools and hospitals and they will help us look after ours, and their health. They are just people, like us.

They could maybe even set up a football team in their locality and it might prosper and still be going in another 100 years time.:wink:

[grunt]

They could maybe even set up a football team in their locality and it might prosper and still be going in another 100 years time.:wink:

Given enough time, they might even win the Scottish Cup.

[ronaldo7]

Given enough time, they might even win the Scottish Cup.

I thought you said they were only people like us....Oh ye:partyhibb

One of them might even produce a future son of Edinburgh who will own a multi million pound empire, employing thousands in the process.

Pesky Migrants.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes but before immigrants had a choice, but if England is no longer an option then can we expect to see a significant increase in Scotland assuming an Indy Yes and EU Yes scenario.

I hope so because we definitely need a larger working age population to support our ageing demographic.

[the_ginger_hibee]

Another IndyRef? Really?

It may meet the vague 'material change of circumstances' but talk so close to the last ref. flies in the face of the SNP respecting the decision of the Scottish people.

[High-On-Hibs]

Another IndyRef? Really?

It may meet the vague 'material change of circumstances' but talk so close to the last ref. flies in the face of the SNP respecting the decision of the Scottish people.

Surely it would be hugely disrespectful and undemocratic for them to say "naw, you ain't getting another one", even if the demand for one clearly exceeds 50%?

Do you suggest that they just ignore the demand, should it crop up? Is that the British Nationalist idea of democracy?

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I'm not easily shocked but your dead on the money with this. The xenophobic euphoria is akin to a feeding frenzy on my social media. I feel a little sorry for those who voted out without a xenophobic agenda but if you fly with the crows............

The main thing for me was how much the EU has changed since it started. It used to be a good thing but it's remit has grown beyond recognition.
Cameron's negotiations showed how difficult meaningful reform would be and I considered it broken beyond repair. Fear of an EU superstate would have been a real concern IMO and I don't trust politicians to do this sensibly.

As for non-racist Brexit voters, I'm glad you acknowledge those people exist. It's strange how Remain talked so much about tolerance and yet show utter ignorance and disdain for anyone that disagrees with them. Personally I'm not fussed about immigration (yes we should have full control over it but that's hardly a controversial statement). It's a very good thing, and will continue to be post Brexit. I'm also married to an EU immigrant - I know a lot of brexit voters say that but I assure you it's true in my case. I work in London with lots of brilliant EU immigrants so am fully aware of the positive contribution they all make the the country. for all the above, I was really disappointed that it's what the media have been focusing on and with Farage saying it was the key issue this morning.

[JeMeSouviens]

Another IndyRef? Really?

It may meet the vague 'material change of circumstances' but talk so close to the last ref. flies in the face of the SNP respecting the decision of the Scottish people.

Just like a No vote being the only way to secure our future in the EU flies in the face of reality.

[Kavinho]

Another IndyRef? Really?

It may meet the vague 'material change of circumstances' but talk so close to the last ref. flies in the face of the SNP respecting the decision of the Scottish people.


i think the number of failed promises, so soon, must have a good section of people considering the possibility of whether they were misled or not such a short time ago.


Like like today with the NHS claims (Farage, Good morning Britain) & the 'we never said we would radically reduce immigration' claim (Hannan, speaking to Nick Robinson).


Is the "democratic will" argument a 'fair' one in that context?

[Hibbyradge]

I was really disappointed that it's what the media have been focusing on and with Farage saying it was the key issue this morning.

I hate to give Farage credit for anything, but he's probably right.

Immigration was the key issue for a huge proportion of the Leave vote.

People voted to stop the migrants without a thought about anything else. The Leave propaganda even included pictures of Syria and Iraq as if they're in the EU!

Seemingly, in the wake of the Leave result, the reality started to dawn on people and Google reports that questions like "What is the EU?" were the most searched for in the UK.

We're a laughing stock.

[Pretty Boy]

I hate to give Farage credit for anything, but he's probably right.

Immigration was the key issue for a huge proportion of the Leave vote.

People voted to stop the migrants without a thought about anything else. The Leave propaganda even included pictures of Syria and Iraq as if they're in the EU!

Seemingly, in the wake of the Leave result, the reality started to dawn on people and Google reports that questions like "What is the EU?" were the most searched for in the UK.

We're a laughing stock.

Immigration was put front and centre by both the official leave camp and various unofficial organisations with good reason, from their viewpoint.

That's not to imply everyone who voted leave is a racist or a xenophobe but it was undoubtedly the key issue for many. Social media shows some of the utterly repugnant views that are being thrown about and it's not pretty.

I've heard various stories about various left leaning groups and organisations involved in the leave group but despite being actively engaged with the whole process for months I can't recall them having anything close to the platform the right wingers were given.

[bigwheel]

I hate to give Farage credit for anything, but he's probably right.

Immigration was the key issue for a huge proportion of the Leave vote.

People voted to stop the migrants without a thought about anything else. The Leave propaganda even included pictures of Syria and Iraq as if they're in the EU!

Seemingly, in the wake of the Leave result, the reality started to dawn on people and Google reports that questions like "What is the EU?" were the most searched for in the UK.

We're a laughing stock.

They made it the key issue...through lies, myths, and xenophobic words and pictures...and people were stirred by it more than facts. The Remain campaign failed in England to counteract it. Now we are left in Economic limbo for a number of years...

And as a result, the working class will bear the brunt of the recession and uncertainty and our kids no longer have free access to live and work in 27 countries across the world....great outcome! Pffft


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[Hibbyradge]

They made it the key issue...through lies, myths, and xenophobic words and pictures...and people were stirred by it more than facts. The Remain campaign failed in England to counteract it. Now we are left in Economic limbo for a number of years...

And as a result, the working class will bear the brunt of the recession and uncertainty and our kids no longer have free access to live and work in 27 countries across the world....great outcome! Pffft


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It's a catastrophe for sure.

Worse than Indy. We didn't lose anything with that, we merely didn't gain.

This is a spectacular own goal.

[the_ginger_hibee]

Surely it would be hugely disrespectful and undemocratic for them to say "naw, you ain't getting another one", even if the demand for one clearly exceeds 50%?

Do you suggest that they just ignore the demand, should it crop up? Is that the British Nationalist idea of democracy?

What has changed though? Okay we're out the EU but what has changed with the 55% that would make them vote Yes this time?

And how can you assess demand at/over 50% without doing another Ref?

Don't know if your insinuating I'm a British Nationalist or that I know what their idea of anything is but it looks like SNP idea of democracy is referendum until you get the result you want.


i think the number of failed promises, so soon, must have a good section of people considering the possibility of whether they were misled or not such a short time ago.


Like like today with the NHS claims (Farage, Good morning Britain) & the 'we never said we would radically reduce immigration' claim (Hannan, speaking to Nick Robinson).


Is the "democratic will" argument a 'fair' one in that context?

I don't see the problem with the Farage thing? He isn't a sitting MP, he is no position of power, it wasn't his bus and it wasn't his campaign that made that pledge - of course he couldn't guarantee it would happen? It seems so obvious he couldn't guarantee it?

...and the immigration thing was known prior - it was a common fact wheeled out by Remain that leaving the EU wouldn't effect immigration drastically as most immigrants were from outside the EU?

I'd be very surprised if any leave voter felt 'misled', seems like noise from Remain. We heard it after IndyRef too...although there was more credence in that due to the very public 'pledge' that quickly unravelled.

[JeMeSouviens]

The analysis of votes by age group totally blows apart the theory that as voters age they become risk averse. So the obvious implication is that British identity is strongest among the older voters.

Scottish independence is merely a question of timing now.

[Kavinho]

What has changed though? Okay we're out the EU but what has changed with the 55% that would make them vote Yes this time?

And how can you assess demand at/over 50% without doing another Ref?

Don't know if your insinuating I'm a British Nationalist or that I know what their idea of anything is but it looks like SNP idea of democracy is referendum until you get the result you want.



I don't see the problem with the Farage thing? He isn't a sitting MP, he is no position of power, it wasn't his bus and it wasn't his campaign that made that pledge - of course he couldn't guarantee it would happen? It seems so obvious he couldn't guarantee it?

...and the immigration thing was known prior - it was a common fact wheeled out by Remain that leaving the EU wouldn't effect immigration drastically as most immigrants were from outside the EU?

I'd be very surprised if any leave voter felt 'misled', seems like noise from Remain. We heard it after IndyRef too...although there was more credence in that due to the very public 'pledge' that quickly unravelled.


.........2 major tenents of the campaign, and 2 leading protagonists distanced themselves almost instantly from the claims made that were arguably the key debate topics?


thats all I'm saying on it. You may have judged them to be outright lies, others may feel they weren't told the true facts for them to make up their own minds before going to the ballot box.

[johnbc70]

'what is the EU' was one of the top Google searches today in the UK.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Immigration was put front and centre by both the official leave camp and various unofficial organisations with good reason, from their viewpoint.

That's not to imply everyone who voted leave is a racist or a xenophobe but it was undoubtedly the key issue for many. Social media shows some of the utterly repugnant views that are being thrown about and it's not pretty.

I've heard various stories about various left leaning groups and organisations involved in the leave group but despite being actively engaged with the whole process for months I can't recall them having anything close to the platform the right wingers were given.

Your last paragraph is down to the failing of the media more than anything else, which I guess is your point. We rightly moan about the campaigns being a poor but we mostly focus on what the media allow us to, which leads to stories designed to stir emotions and politicians looking for cheap sound bites. This is a big part of the toxic atmosphere (from both sides) in politics just now and I do feel the media should sometimes act more responsibly.

We rightly condemn any racism however Remain need to accept that many Brexit voters have legitimate concerns about immigration levels and that it has had a negative impact in some areas. Just because we don't experience or even witness these problems ourselves, doesn't mean we should dismiss others that do. The country needs to unite and listening to
everyone's respective concerns is an important part. Obviously any racist can GTF but I do believe this is a very small minority.

[lord bunberry]

I was just in asda and there was a foreign couple in front of me, the checkout assistant asked if they would like help packing their bags. I thought that's ****ing quick, the vote was only yesterday :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I wonder who's going to fire the starting gun on Article 50?

Cameron said he'll leave it to the next Tory pwick, and Juncker wants it to start now.

Gove and Boris have their heads down, as they've not got a Scooby what to do next.

:agree:

They both looked like they were ****ing themselves at the prospect today.

[Hibbyradge]

:agree:

They both looked like they were ****ing themselves at the prospect today.

I agree. I think they expected a remain decision and thought that they would still benefit from Cameron's wounds.

Farage is the only winner.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was just in asda and there was a foreign couple in front of me, the checkout assistant asked if they would like help packing their bags. I thought that's ****ing quick, the vote was only yesterday :greengrin

That's exactly the sort of racist ***** that's also filling my Facebook feed. Somehow we've landed back in the 1970's where racist humour is socially acceptable.

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's exactly the sort of racist ***** that's also filling my Facebook feed. Somehow we've landed back in the 1970's where racist humour is socially acceptable.

Listen, Bernard Manning, I want nae darkies here.

[Sir David Gray]

They made it the key issue...through lies, myths, and xenophobic words and pictures...and people were stirred by it more than facts. The Remain campaign failed in England to counteract it. Now we are left in Economic limbo for a number of years...

And as a result, the working class will bear the brunt of the recession and uncertainty and our kids no longer have free access to live and work in 27 countries across the world....great outcome! Pffft


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Who says?

The citizens of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway can all move around Europe in pretty much the same way that EU citizens can so I don't see why leaving would make any difference to that.

[The Harp Awakes]

The analysis of votes by age group totally blows apart the theory that as voters age they become risk averse. So the obvious implication is that British identity is strongest among the older voters.

Scottish independence is merely a question of timing now.

Yes and Yes without doubt.

[Hibbyradge]

Who says?

The citizens of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway can all move around Europe in pretty much the same way that EU citizens can so I don't see why leaving would make any difference to that.

That's because they accepted free movement for EU citizens.

We want our borders back, remember?

[lord bunberry]

That's exactly the sort of racist ***** that's also filling my Facebook feed. Somehow we've landed back in the 1970's where racist humour is socially acceptable.
Behave yourself.

[Pretty Boy]

That's because they accepted free movement for EU citizens.

We want our borders back, remember?

It'll stop them from Syria, Iraq and Africa coming over though, according to a nice man interviewed on Channel 4 news. Those well known European countries.

He doesn't mind Europeans coming over though, that's why he voted leave.

[Ronniekirk]

It'll stop them from Syria, Iraq and Africa coming over though, according to a nice man interviewed on Channel 4 news. Those well known European countries.

He doesn't mind Europeans coming over though, that's why he voted leave.

Thats what happens when the debates descend into scaremongering
Real facts get lost and people latch onto bits of misinformation and spread it
The Syrian Refugee dispersal programme continues and has been successful to date Lets hope these people don't start getting targeted by morons


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[johnbc70]

It'll stop them from Syria, Iraq and Africa coming over though, according to a nice man interviewed on Channel 4 news. Those well known European countries.

He doesn't mind Europeans coming over though, that's why he voted leave.

You may mock, but it is people like him that this country voted to to leave. Unless people's concerns about this type of thing are addressed then people like him continue to have those views. This leave vote was won on the immigration issue and as the vote demonstrated people in many communities are fed up with it, we don't live down south in the worst effected areas but to ignore the concerns of 17M people is foolish.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's because they accepted free movement for EU citizens.

We want our borders back, remember?

And pay the EU around £190m a week for the privilege.

[Pretty Boy]

You may mock, but it is people like him that this country voted to to leave. Unless people's concerns about this type of thing are addressed then people like him continue to have those views. This leave vote was won on the immigration issue and as the vote demonstrated people in many communities are fed up with it, we don't live down south in the worst effected areas but to ignore the concerns of 17M people is foolish.
What difference is a Brexit going to have on immigration? Even the official leave campaign is saying it will be minimal.

I've no doubt many have legitimate concerns about immigration and they should be addressed, although if social media and the mainstream media is anything to go by nothing short of 'removing' all immigrants is acceptable. However when people cast their vote from a position of total ignorance such as not understanding the difference between EU and non EU migration then all you can really do is laugh.

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[mmmmhibby]

That's exactly the sort of racist ***** that's also filling my Facebook feed. Somehow we've landed back in the 1970's where racist humour is socially acceptable.

Expect a visit from the Humour Police lol

[Hibbyradge]

You may mock, but it is people like him that this country voted to to leave. Unless people's concerns about this type of thing are addressed then people like him continue to have those views. This leave vote was won on the immigration issue and as the vote demonstrated people in many communities are fed up with it, we don't live down south in the worst effected areas but to ignore the concerns of 17M people is foolish.


The Labour Party Deputy Leader, Tom Watson MP, said that attempts should be made to modify the unrestricted right of labour mobility in the EU, which would have addressed the concerns of Labour voters about immigration, without falling into the racist UKIP position to which the Leave campaign eventually gravitated.

This was almost instantly contradicted by Jeremy Corbyn.

[jonty]

This was one of the few informed article I've watched/read over the past few months.
Not particularly about immigration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y


Going back to 'what the **** was Cameron thinking' surely he should have tested the waters first, or learnt from the Scottish referendum - a 60/40 in favour would be far more productive than a 50/50 split with a narrow majority?

(hindsight, eh)
I've also noticed a few posts on f/b (i know, i know) claiming that the referendum is just an advisory, not legally binding?

[ihibs7]

I agree. I think they expected a remain decision and thought that they would still benefit from Cameron's wounds.

Farage is the only winner.

I think that too - they wanted to mortally wound Cameron not set in motion this particular catastrophe.

Not convinced farage has a medium term future.


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[jonty]

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153842562976939/?pnref=story
Barnsley voter (mentioned previously)

what if the referendum is a draw http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/what-happens-if-the-eu-referendum-is-a-draw/

[Sir David Gray]

Anybody hear the wife on Sky News this morning bumping her gums about the result?

She said;

"I'm really disappointed, I don't think those who have voted Leave really understand what they're doing. I don't understand it and I'm highly educated!"

Award for most condescending comments of the year goes to...

[Hibs90]

The thing that gets on my nerves is the arrogance and hatred now coming from the Remain camp. It's appalling behaviour.

[Hibbyradge]

The thing that gets on my nerves is the arrogance and hatred now coming from the Remain camp. It's appalling behaviour.

Would you provide a few examples of that?

What I've noticed mainly is great sadness and fear, mixed with some anger over the lies and manipulation used by Johnson and Co.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No.

Scotland has been a member of the European Union for 43 years and our population hasn't grown that much in the entirety of that time.

Besides, if we did get an influx of immigrants, it would be a result of English people escaping the new xenophobic regime under Boris.


And actually, our recent populatiob growth is largely down to migration, so irs been a good thing.

What gets me is that migrants will generally only where there are jobs.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The analysis of votes by age group totally blows apart the theory that as voters age they become risk averse. So the obvious implication is that British identity is strongest among the older voters.

Scottish independence is merely a question of timing now.

Agree with this. It may not happeb straight away due to circumstances (oil price, poor euro) but its hard not to see it as more inevitable now than it has ever been.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Anyone see the BBC montage - started with the old guy in tears cos he's "got his country back" and ended with the extra from Shameless thumping her chest claiming "this is arrr England, this is arrrr England"

[bigwheel]

The thing that gets on my nerves is the arrogance and hatred now coming from the Remain camp. It's appalling behaviour.

I've seen none of that , just shock, anger, sadness and dismay at the result . It's clear this has been secured through a "let's take our country back " mentality from many - and it is this isolationist opinion that has spooked many people ...no one knows the future , but the thought of our younger generation having less freedom of work and movement than we have enjoyed is deeply sad to me - as is the short term economic hardship that is coming our way for the next few years at least during this time of uncertainty ...

I don't get a sense those were factors considered by many who voted to leave - do you ?

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Anybody hear the wife on Sky News this morning bumping her gums about the result?

She said;

"I'm really disappointed, I don't think those who have voted Leave really understand what they're doing. I don't understand it and I'm highly educated!"

Award for most condescending comments of the year goes to...

Deary me. Problem is that statement is how the politicians in Westminster feel. The ignorance and disconnect is quite something and they only tolerate those who agree with them.

[Beefster]

Anybody hear the wife on Sky News this morning bumping her gums about the result?

She said;

"I'm really disappointed, I don't think those who have voted Leave really understand what they're doing. I don't understand it and I'm highly educated!"

Award for most condescending comments of the year goes to...

In her defence, there have been a fair few folk on Twitter/TV/Facebook saying stuff like "what? we're still in the EU for years?", "I didn't realise that my holidays would be more expensive" and "I didn't realise that jobs would actually move/be lost".

That suggests a fair amount of ignorance about the consequences.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

That's exactly the sort of racist ***** that's also filling my Facebook feed. Somehow we've landed back in the 1970's where racist humour is socially acceptable.

That's a bit OTT is it not?

[Future17]

That's exactly the sort of racist ***** that's also filling my Facebook feed. Somehow we've landed back in the 1970's where racist humour is socially acceptable.

The joke wasn't even close to being racist.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

The joke wasn't even close to being racist.

Agree. The word racism must be losing its meaning if it's being used to describe jokes like this.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've seen none of that , just shock, anger, sadness and dismay at the result . It's clear this has been secured through a "let's take our country back " mentality from many - and it is this isolationist opinion that has spooked many people ...no one knows the future , but the thought of our younger generation having less freedom of work and movement than we have enjoyed is deeply sad to me - as is the short term economic hardship that is coming our way for the next few years at least during this time of uncertainty ...

I don't get a sense those were factors considered by many who voted to leave - do you ?


Genuine question... why is it ok for scots to have an independence movement, but not the English?

Is there a difference?

[High-On-Hibs]

Agree. The word racism must be losing its meaning if it's being used to describe jokes like this.

True. But there are always places like England to remind us of the true definition.

[High-On-Hibs]

Genuine question... why is it ok for scots to have an independence movement, but not the English?

Is there a difference?

It wasn't an English independence movement though. It was a UK independence movement, dictated by the English. If this had been an England only referendum, people up here would care far less.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

True. But there are always places like England to remind us of the true definition.

Do you really consider England to be a racist country? I think the statement you made shows a fair amount of ignorance, which you claim to detest.

[hibsbollah]

You may mock, but it is people like him that this country voted to to leave. Unless people's concerns about this type of thing are addressed then people like him continue to have those views. This leave vote was won on the immigration issue and as the vote demonstrated people in many communities are fed up with it, we don't live down south in the worst effected areas but to ignore the concerns of 17M people is foolish.

I don't want my elected politicians to 'address concerns about this kind of thing', thanks. Using the racism word is irrelevant to me, but xenophobia has become rampant in much of England from what I've seen, and it's been nurtured by politicians who benefit from fear.

Scaremongering is a Policy, FACT. I want my politicians to a)stop using xenophobia as a currency themselves, and b) fight against it when it's whipped up by others.

[bigwheel]

Genuine question... why is it ok for scots to have an independence movement, but not the English?

Is there a difference?

I'm not sure of the context of your question. My post was not suggesting an English independence movement , more an "anti foreigner" mindset that has grown through this campaign ...

In answer to your question though - the English have every right to want independence. But they don't want to go it alone , they seem to want independence from Europe yet retain the UK togetherness. I don't believe that can be their choice alone to make ..it's too material a change from the position the No campaign took during the Indy referendum - the other countries in the UK also deserve another say in that.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It wasn't an English independence movement though. It was a UK independence movement, dictated by the English. If this had been an England only referendum, people up here would care far less.

Yeah but the principke is the same if you consider beitain to be a country, which most English do.

It really annoyse how extreme people are. There were perfectly valid, rational and legitimate reasons for voting in or out (as rhere were in indyref).

By constantly (and incorrecrly) denigrating everyone and anyone who doesnt take their view - it makes them eeacrionary, petty, ignorant and bigoted

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not sure of the context of your question. My post was not suggesting an English independence movement , more an "anti foreigner" mindset that has grown through this campaign ...

In answer to your question though - the English have every right to want independence. But they don't want to go it alone , they seem to want independence from Europe yet retain the UK togetherness. I don't believe that can be their choice alone to make ..it's too material a change from the position the No campaign took during the Indy referendum - the other countries in the UK also deserve another say in that.

I wasnt having a go at you.

I ageee with you, the future of the uk in that sense isnt up to the english.

But the english/British want sovereignty from brussels in the same way as many independence supporters do.

I would agree that there is more of xenophibic angle in england in some quarters, but it would be naive ro think anti-englishness hasn't played a part in the nationalist movement in scotland too - it definitely has

[sambajustice]

Dunno if this has been mentioned on this thread already but I had a thought yesterday while digesting all of this.

Norn Iron voted to stay in the EU.

Now, and I doubt either of these would happen, if the powers over there pushed for their own referendum on staying part of the UK would the referendum be to form a united Ireland (which it should be) or would it be for Norn Iron to be it's own country separate of England and the Republic?

They'd maybe need a couple of referendums* or more options on the voting card.

*what's the plural of referendum? :-D

[ronaldo7]

Dunno if this has been mentioned on this thread already but I had a thought yesterday while digesting all of this.

Norn Iron voted to stay in the EU.

Now, and I doubt either of these would happen, if the powers over there pushed for their own referendum on staying part of the UK would the referendum be to form a united Ireland (which it should be) or would it be for Norn Iron to be it's own country separate of England and the Republic?

They'd maybe need a couple of referendums* or more options on the voting card.

*what's the plural of referendum? :-D

Sinn Fein are already on it.

http://www.voanews.com/content/sinn-fein-calls-for-irish-unity-poll-as-brexit-fallout-begins/3391027.html

[bigwheel]

I wasnt having a go at you.

I ageee with you, the future of the uk in that sense isnt up to the english.

But the english/British want sovereignty from brussels in the same way as many independence supporters do.

I would agree that there is more of xenophibic angle in england in some quarters, but it would be naive ro think anti-englishness hasn't played a part in the nationalist movement in scotland too - it definitely has

Ok, I get your point more now - sure That last point about anti English sentiment does exist - I guess I sense it less though than say 10-20 years ago....whereas I sense there is a big growth in "anti-foreigner/immigrant sentiment that is much more dominant than anti-Brussels sentiment.

Tbh in my view , the people have voted and made their choice. that choice is taking us into a complete unknown place - and those who voted for that, should not be surprised there is quite a sharp reaction against it - no one knows what's going to happen next - because no one has shared the plan ....

[High-On-Hibs]

I keep hearing "I voted OUT for my children, grandchildren, younger generation....etc".

Your children, grandchildren and the rest of the younger generation didn't want this.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ok, I get your point more now - sure That last point about anti English sentiment does exist - I guess I sense it less though than say 10-20 years ago....whereas I sense there is a big growth in "anti-foreigner/immigrant sentiment that is much more dominant than anti-Brussels sentiment.

Tbh in my view , the people have voted and made their choice. that choice is taking us into a complete unknown place - and those who voted for that, should not be surprised there is quite a sharp reaction against it - no one knows what's going to happen next - because no one has shared the plan ....

Agree its become less recently, particuarly in the snp. But it has attracted a lot of the real loony left too, who habe projexted all kinds of ridiculous and unrealistic ecpectations onto an independent scotland.

Agree, we need to see how things emerge first before firm decisions can be made in response

[High-On-Hibs]

Agree its become less recently, particuarly in the snp. But it has attracted a lot of the real loony left too, who habe projexted all kinds of ridiculous and unrealistic ecpectations onto an independent scotland.

Agree, we need to see how things emerge first before firm decisions can be made in response

Unrealistic things remain unrealistic until they occur. The problem with the loony right is that they never want to try anything different. They want to keep everything the same all of the time. They anchor themselves to old outdated ideals and believe in them so strongly that they think they can dictate what's realistic and what isn't.

[Hibbyradge]

because no one has shared the plan ....

Plan? :faf:

Loving your sense of humour! :wink:

[ronaldo7]

All major parties in Scotland campaigned for an IN vote during the EU ref. I'd now expect them all to join the campaign for us to remain in the EU.:greengrin

Maybe all the banks with head offices in London will think about moving their HQ's to Edinburgh if we get Indy2 and stay in the EU.:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Yeah but the principke is the same if you consider beitain to be a country, which most English do. It really annoyse how extreme people are. There were perfectly valid, rational and legitimate reasons for voting in or out (as rhere were in indyref). By constantly (and incorrecrly) denigrating everyone and anyone who doesnt take their view - it makes them eeacrionary, petty, ignorant and bigoted

Maybe it's the social media aspect where people's views are expressed in a unfiltered way?

You make a fair point and one that seems quite prevalent when you look at the losing sides reactions in both referendum.

The narrative appears to be quite clear here, 17m people voted to leave because they were either stupid, racist or both.

[Sir David Gray]

In her defence, there have been a fair few folk on Twitter/TV/Facebook saying stuff like "what? we're still in the EU for years?", "I didn't realise that my holidays would be more expensive" and "I didn't realise that jobs would actually move/be lost".

That suggests a fair amount of ignorance about the consequences.

I get that and I agree that some people will have voted in a certain way because they have based assumptions on certain things which aren't true but her comments implied that everyone who voted Leave was uneducated and couldn't possibly have understood anything to do with the vote, when a highly educated person such as herself didn't understand it all.

She was extremely patronising and condescending.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Looks like there's going to be a vote of no confidence on Corbyn amongst the PLP on Monday. Whatever one's view of EU membership, this decision has created enormous consequences, as one would expect. Political events are often portrayed with exaggerated significance, but this really is going to change everything.

[Albion Hibs]

Genuine question... why is it ok for scots to have an independence movement, but not the English?

Is there a difference?

to be fair I think it is a valid point. Some of the interviews I have seen in backwater England actually make you question if these people have a brain. But let's not kid ourselves, take a camera crew into areas in Scotland with a similar economic make up and you would be sure to get 'I dinae really ken but ?£&ok the English eh'. We have our fair share of utter morons that are seeking to break up a union.

[jonty]

Almost unbelievable
https://twitter.com/SayeedaWarsi/status/746721412942073857

Demographic analysis http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2016/06/24/brexit-demographic-divide-eu-referendum-results/


Will Leave rue their decision?

Ten days before the referendum, the Centre for European Reform think tank published a report asking whether Leave voters may be “Brexiting [themselves] in the foot”. One of the core points was that the parts of the UK which rely the most heavily on the EU for exports were predicted to be the most anti-EU, based on analysis of the British Election Survey by academics Nick Vivyan and Chris Hanretty.

Today we reproduced the chart using the actual results rather than the projections, and the pattern holds. On average, the higher the percentage of a region’s economic output that is currently exported to the EU, the higher its Leave vote turned out to be.

17021

[Hibrandenburg]

Expect a visit from the Humour Police lol

And so it came to pass. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13178745.Polish_workers__told_by_No_activists__you _would_have_to_leave_an_indy_Scotland_/

Anyone remember this?

[johnbc70]

I don't want my elected politicians to 'address concerns about this kind of thing', thanks. Using the racism word is irrelevant to me, but xenophobia has become rampant in much of England from what I've seen, and it's been nurtured by politicians who benefit from fear.

Scaremongering is a Policy, FACT. I want my politicians to a)stop using xenophobia as a currency themselves, and b) fight against it when it's whipped up by others.

Ignoring these concerns, valid or not, has led us to where we are today.

[High-On-Hibs]

I get that and I agree that some people will have voted in a certain way because they have based assumptions on certain things which aren't true but her comments implied that everyone who voted Leave was uneducated and couldn't possibly have understood anything to do with the vote, when a highly educated person such as herself didn't understand it all.

She was extremely patronising and condescending.

She was right. Brexiters have literally no idea what their vote actually entails. They all have their own fantasies about what this will mean for Britain. Fantasies that will all be shattered when they don't actually occur.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Unrealistic things remain unrealistic until they occur. The problem with the loony right is that they never want to try anything different. They want to keep everything the same all of the time. They anchor themselves to old outdated ideals and believe in them so strongly that they think they can dictate what's realistic and what isn't.

But the problem for the loony left is that there is a huge amount of ground between them and the loony right - which is where elecrions are almost always won.

People think an independent Scotland will be some bastion of socialism, but it wont. The snp have been right of centre for a long time

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Maybe it's the social media aspect where people's views are expressed in a unfiltered way?

You make a fair point and one that seems quite prevalent when you look at the losing sides reactions in both referendum.

The narrative appears to be quite clear here, 17m people voted to leave because they were either stupid, racist or both.


Exactly - and there always seem to be a (misguided) belief that millions of those who voted no in the indyref are all now regeetting that and dying to vote yes. Its insulting and anti-democratic. Bur more than that, it belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the reasons people vote fhe way they do

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

She was right. Brexiters have literally no idea what their vote actually entails. They all have their own fantasies about what this will mean for Britain. Fantasies that will all be shattered when they don't actually occur.

As it will be with scotttish independence for many of the new converts from the left

[lord bunberry]

Maybe it's the social media aspect where people's views are expressed in a unfiltered way?

You make a fair point and one that seems quite prevalent when you look at the losing sides reactions in both referendum.

The narrative appears to be quite clear here, 17m people voted to leave because they were either stupid, racist or both.
:agree: And that's is precisely the dismissive attitude that has driven large parts this country to feel that they have no one to represent them in main stream politics. I don't agree with these people, but I absolutely see why they think the way they do. When you have racist bigots preying on people who have are already disillusioned, you end up with the situation we find ourselves in now. I remember watching an election special a while back and the representatives from the main stream parties treated the ukip guy with utter contempt. I remember thinking at the time that they were going to regret what they were saying.

[Betty Boop]

True. But there are always places like England to remind us of the true definition.

Bigotted nonsense. Deary me.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Just been watching the Sunday morning politics on the BBC and almost every guest has been educated, from the south east of England and giving a very academic analysis from a Westminster perspective. Can't help thinking this is part of the problem and they haven't really spoken about why people voted to leave in the first place and what will happen to address some of the issues. Can't help worrying they're missing the point, anyone else thinning this?

[Benny Brazil]

Just been watching the Sunday morning politics on the BBC and almost every guest has been educated, from the south east of England and giving a very academic analysis from a Westminster perspective. Can't help thinking this is part of the problem and they haven't really spoken about why people voted to leave in the first place and what will happen to address some of the issues. Can't help worrying they're missing the point, anyone else thinning this?

Yes - was think that watching Andrew Marr's show - its all about what happens now, IndyRef, Tory and Labour leadership divisions/decisions/disagreements.

[Pretty Boy]

This is quite an interesting read from The Guardian about the failures of the Remain campaign, particularly the failure to point out to some what was staring them in the face:


http://gu.com/p/4myfh/fb

[ihibs7]

The future is uncertain; it's uncertain if we had voted remain, it's uncertain because we voted for brexit.

There's a lot of different views on what happens next, no one knows what will happen they are guessing or forecasting. That's because it's uncertain.

So quite why we are being subjected to a propaganda doomsday stream is insulting and treating us as if we are all some ignorant buffoons.


Just been watching the Sunday morning politics on the BBC and almost every guest has been educated, from the south east of England and giving a very academic analysis from a Westminster perspective. Can't help thinking this is part of the problem and they haven't really spoken about why people voted to leave in the first place and what will happen to address some of the issues. Can't help worrying they're missing the point, anyone else thinning this?




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[High-On-Hibs]

Bigotted nonsense. Deary me.

Saying something controversial doesn't make it any less true or more bigoted. There's clearly an ever increasingly feeling of xenophobia south of the border. Denying it and pretending it isn't there, won't make it go away.

[Hibbyradge]

The future is uncertain; it's uncertain if we had voted remain, it's uncertain because we voted for brexit.

There's a lot of different views on what happens next, no one knows what will happen they are guessing or forecasting. That's because it's uncertain.

So quite why we are being subjected to a propaganda doomsday stream is insulting and treating us as if we are all some ignorant buffoons.






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People are extremely frightened. The enormity of what has happened is starting to sink in.

Highly experienced and intelligent economists, who know how the markets and currencies behave, and whose job it is to forecast trends and movements, have been saying for months that Brexit would be hugely damaging to the UK.

They're now being believed and people are repeating their conclusions.

It's uncertain what would happen if you walked into the Louden Tavern wearing a Hibs scarf singing we won the cup, but it wouldn't be good.

[ihibs7]

Economists have been wrong before and they'll be wrong again.

I can't see any of these doomsday scenarios playing out because when it comes down to it governments don't act out of spite but common interest.

But, time will tell who is right


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[Rasta_Hibs]

Bigotted nonsense. Deary me.

Have to agree the amount of anti-English, bigoted nonsense being spouted on here by the so called 'liberals' really takes the biscuit.

[Hibbyradge]

Economists have been wrong before and they'll be wrong again.



Doctors have been wrong too, but it's foolhardy not to heed their advice.

However,pretty much every economist is saying the same thing. It's unlikely that they're all wrong.

You're right though, time will tell. We'll find out who's right soon enough.

[Hibbyradge]

Have to agree the amount of anti-English, bigoted nonsense being spouted on here by the so called 'liberals' really takes the biscuit.

That's a very unfair generalisation.

Please name names instead of tarring everyone with the same brush.

Anyway, what do you mean so called liberals?

[Hibbyradge]

I can't see any of these doomsday scenarios playing out because when it comes down to it governments don't act out of spite but common interest.



On that point, I'd like that to be true, but countries act out of self interest. The EU can't give the UK a great deal because it would encourage other countries to leave too.

They can't give us a better deal than Norway etc have, or they'd be looking for the same.

And that deal, which requires free movement of labour, costs those countries £190m per week.

I'm no fortune teller or economic forecaster, but I'm absolutely certain that we won't get better than that.

Which makes the whole referendum and the decision to leave utterly pointless.

[Rasta_Hibs]

That's a very unfair generalisation.

Please name names instead of tarring everyone with the same brush.

Anyway, what do you mean so called liberals?

Fair enough I accept that I should not have tarred everyone with the same brush.

But the same should be said of the people on here calling it a vote won by bigots and racists. It's not true there are many reasons to vote leave and the vote was won by a wide section off the public in the UK.

The so called Liberals who seem to think they have a better moral standing than the average person. The ones who shout bigot and racist at anyone who does not toe their line. The snobbish leftwing of the media, the BBC - Every clip you see now is of someone who is uneducated shouting about immigrants, painting a picture that's not accurate, then you have people repeating what they see on the TV - Or quoting George Soros funded news outlets such as the Huffington Post.

[Hibbyradge]

Fair enough I accept that I should not have tarred everyone with the same brush.

But the same should be said of the people on here calling it a vote won by bigots and racists. It's not true there are many reasons to vote leave and the vote was won by a wide section off the public in the UK.

The so called Liberals who seem to think they have a better moral standing than the average person. The ones who shout bigot and racist at anyone who does not toe their line. The snobbish leftwing of the media, the BBC - Every clip you see now is of someone who is uneducated shouting about immigrants, painting a picture that's not accurate, then you have people repeating what they see on the TV - Or quoting George Soros funded news outlets such as the Huffington Post.

There were many different drivers people had to vote to leave. One of those was racism, I'm sure you'll agree, but not every leaver holds racist views.

I don't think I've seen the Huffington Post calling leavers racist, but what's wrong with quoting it generally?

Also, you never explained what you meant by so called liberals.

[Moulin Yarns]

On that point, I'd like that to be true, but countries act out of self interest. The EU can't give the UK a great deal because it would encourage other countries to leave too.

They can't give us a better deal than Norway etc have, or they'd be looking for the same.

And that deal, which requires free movement of labour, costs those countries £190m per week.

I'm no fortune teller or economic forecaster, but I'm absolutely certain that we won't get better than that.

Which makes the whole referendum and the decision to leave utterly pointless.

Not forgetting the same fishing restrictions we have at the moment also applies to Norway. We will not take back control of the fisheries like we were told.

[Rasta_Hibs]

There were many different drivers people had to vote to leave. One of those was racism, I'm sure you'll agree, but not every leaver holds racist views.

I don't think I've seen the Huffington Post calling leavers racist, but what's wrong with quoting it generally?

Also, you never explained what you meant by so called liberals.

Because its funded by George Soros basically and everything he touches is biased and tailored to suits his agenda or the agenda.

So called liberals as in there is no substance to their liberal views.

Like so called liberals who voted for a corrupt EU and then try and pass the same vote as being a vote for the leftwing liberal viewpoint. When in reality IMO it was a vote for Multinational Corporations, political greed and most of all it was a vote against democracy.

There is nothing liberal about a political elite who reside over mass unemployment on a continent whilst paying themselves in the most lavish terms possible - with lavish being the operative word!

[Moulin Yarns]

Because its funded by George Soros basically and everything he touches is biased and tailored to suits his agenda or the agenda.

So called liberals as in there is no substance to their liberal views.

Like so called liberals who voted for a corrupt EU and then try and pass the same vote as being a vote for the leftwing liberal viewpoint. When in reality IMO it was a vote for Multinational Corporations, political greed and most of all it was a vote against democracy.

There is nothing liberal about a political elite who reside over mass unemployment on a continent whilst paying themselves in the most lavish terms possible - with lavish being the operative word!

You are not averse to quoting similarly biased sources of a right wing nature.

[bigwheel]

Because its funded by George Soros basically and everything he touches is biased and tailored to suits his agenda or the agenda.

So called liberals as in there is no substance to their liberal views.

Like so called liberals who voted for a corrupt EU and then try and pass the same vote as being a vote for the leftwing liberal viewpoint. When in reality IMO it was a vote for Multinational Corporations, political greed and most of all it was a vote against democracy.

There is nothing liberal about a political elite who reside over mass unemployment on a continent whilst paying themselves in the most lavish terms possible - with lavish being the operative word!

I'll take humanitarian, climate change fighter, escaped from the nazi's George Soros anytime against the ultra conservative and right wing media that he fights against.....


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[Mr White]

Economists have been wrong before and they'll be wrong again.


The Michael Gove approach. "This country has had enough of experts."

We'll all regret this imo.

[Hibbyradge]

Because its funded by George Soros basically and everything he touches is biased and tailored to suits his agenda or the agenda.



Are there many newspaper owners who don't have an agenda?

Pretty hard to quote any newspaper if that's your criteria.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Are there many newspaper owners who don't have an agenda?

Pretty hard to quote any newspaper if that's your criteria.

Yeah you are right and as Mr Golden Fleece has said I have been guilty of it myself.

It is probably best to keep away from the mainstream media as now IMO it's all biased and agenda driven or on the other hand take in everything from the media on all sides and try and work out the truth from their.

[heretoday]

They will help us build houses and schools, they will work in our schools and hospitals and they will help us look after ours, and their health. They are just people, like us.

Yeah? That's all right then.

[matty_f]

One of the more alarming things to come from this is that people seem to have been under the impression that a leave vote would somehow give power to those that headed up the campaign.

The 'what about the millions to the NHS?' chat is alarming, people feel misled about promises made by the leave campaign, but they were never in a position to make those promises.

[Arch Stanton]

I can't see anything that will have reassured the markets that Friday's uncertainty has been addressed - almost the reverse with the Labour Party problems and with Indyref2 - the only way is down further you'd reckon.

If so, an emergency could develop fairly quickly.

So could Westminster ditch Brexit to save sterling? Has to be an option, doesn't it?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can't see anything that will have reassured the markets that Friday's uncertainty has been addressed - almost the reverse with the Labour Party problems and with Indyref2 - the only way is down further you'd reckon.

If so, an emergency could develop fairly quickly.

So could Westminster ditch Brexit to save sterling? Has to be an option, doesn't it?


I believe it is an option, but would be an extraordinary step to take

[magpie1892]

I'll take humanitarian, climate change fighter, escaped from the nazi's George Soros anytime against the ultra conservative and right wing media that he fights against.....


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...but would you take the George Soros who sought and received shelter in post-war Britain, was sponsored by The Quakers, received a free education at the LSE and, by way of gratitude to his British hosts, shorted the £ to the tune of billions and made a billion for himself in 1992? There is a decent argument to be made that he was at least in part responsible for the anti-EU sentiment which has fomented and fermented in the 2+ decades since, and which has ended in what happened on Thursday?

(Oh, and he did not 'escape' from the Nazis - he initially worked for them in the Judenrat (source: his own words during interview on 60 Minutes, 20/12/1998))

[Benny Brazil]

I believe it is an option, but would be an extraordinary step to take

Tories would never make that decision surely - it would be the death knell of their time in Government to ignore the will of the British people.

[bigwheel]

...but would you take the George Soros who sought and received shelter in post-war Britain, was sponsored by The Quakers, received a free education at the LSE and, by way of gratitude to his British hosts, shorted the £ to the tune of billions and made a billion for himself in 1992? There is a decent argument to be made that he was at least in part responsible for the anti-EU sentiment which has fomented and fermented in the 2+ decades since, and which has ended in what happened on Thursday?

(Oh, and he did not 'escape' from the Nazis - he initially worked for them in the Judenrat (source: his own words during interview on 60 Minutes, 20/12/1998))

http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/09/20/toronto-sun-corrects-soros-nazi-smear/170877


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[magpie1892]

http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/09/20/toronto-sun-corrects-soros-nazi-smear/170877


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Interview with Richard Kroft, 60 Minutes 20/12/98. Transcripts available online.

Excerpt:

"Kroft: My understanding is that you went out with this protector of yours who swore that you were his adopted godson.

Soros: Yes. Yes.

K: Went out, in fact, and helped in the confiscation of property from the Jews.

S: Yes. That's right. Yes.

K: I mean, that's - that sounds like an experience that would send lots of people to the psychiatric couch for many, many years. Was it difficult?

S: Not -- not at all. Not at all. Maybe as a child you don't -- you don't see the connection. But it was -- it created no -- no problem at all.

K: No feeling of guilt?

S: No.

K: For example that, 'I'm Jewish and here I am, watching these people go. I could just as easily be there. I should be there.' None of that?

Mr. SOROS: Well, of course I c -- I could be on the other side or I could be the one from whom the thing is being taken away. But there was no sense that I shouldn't be there, because that was -- well, actually, in a funny way, it's just like in markets -- that if I weren't there -- of course, I wasn't doing it, but somebody else would -- would -- would be taking it away anyhow. And it was the -- whether I was there or not, I was only a spectator, the property was being taken away. So the -- I had no role in taking away that property. So I had no sense of guilt."

***

What's the Toronto Sun got to do with it? Where did I cite them?

[Mr Grieves]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

This is a man who knows he's ****ed up.


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[CapitalGreen]

S: Not -- as a child you don't -- you don't see the connection.

.

[CapitalGreen]

Yeah you are right and as Mr Golden Fleece has said I have been guilty of it myself.

It is probably best to keep away from the mainstream media as now IMO it's all biased and agenda driven or on the other hand take in everything from the media on all sides and try and work out the truth from their.

Is non-mainstream media not bias and agenda driven also?

I'd be interested to hear your non-mainstream media recommendations.

[bigwheel]

Interview with Richard Kroft, 60 Minutes 20/12/98. Transcripts available online.

Excerpt:

"Kroft: My understanding is that you went out with this protector of yours who swore that you were his adopted godson.

Soros: Yes. Yes.

K: Went out, in fact, and helped in the confiscation of property from the Jews.

S: Yes. That's right. Yes.

K: I mean, that's - that sounds like an experience that would send lots of people to the psychiatric couch for many, many years. Was it difficult?

S: Not -- not at all. Not at all. Maybe as a child you don't -- you don't see the connection. But it was -- it created no -- no problem at all.

K: No feeling of guilt?

S: No.

K: For example that, 'I'm Jewish and here I am, watching these people go. I could just as easily be there. I should be there.' None of that?

Mr. SOROS: Well, of course I c -- I could be on the other side or I could be the one from whom the thing is being taken away. But there was no sense that I shouldn't be there, because that was -- well, actually, in a funny way, it's just like in markets -- that if I weren't there -- of course, I wasn't doing it, but somebody else would -- would -- would be taking it away anyhow. And it was the -- whether I was there or not, I was only a spectator, the property was being taken away. So the -- I had no role in taking away that property. So I had no sense of guilt."

***

What's the Toronto Sun got to do with it? Where did I cite them?

He was 14 year old - I'm not sure what the big agenda point is here - in all the people that are responsible for where we are now - you want to point to Soros? As opposed to Cameron , Johnston , Farage, Gove, Osborne, Corbyn etc etc ??

[Ronniekirk]

So when is the Emergency Budget likely to be that George Osbourne said would happen in event there was a Leave vote and what do folk think the Tories might put in this apart from more Local Authority Austerity Measures and will the S N P continue to implement these cuts



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[mmmmhibby]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-howl-against-democracy/

[mmmmhibby]

Another interesting article, good read.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/sturgeons-opportunity-isnt-brexit-meltdown-pro-remain-unionists/

[Moulin Yarns]

The View from Germany

[Moulin Yarns]

The view from Germany



German MP Michael Fuchs, a senior ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel, spoke to the Today programme a short time ago.
With a chuckle, he made it clear things were going to have to change.
"Either you are in a club or you are out of a club. If you are in a club you have to follow the rules. If you are out of the club, there will be different rules," he said.
Asked if it would be possible for the UK to retain access to the single market, he replied: "It will be possible, of course, but not for free.

"You have to see with Norway, with Switzerland, you have to pay a certain fee. And the per capita fee of Norway is exactly the same as what Britain is now paying into the EU. So there won't be any savings."

[magpie1892]

He was 14 year old - I'm not sure what the big agenda point is here - in all the people that are responsible for where we are now - you want to point to Soros? As opposed to Cameron , Johnston , Farage, Gove, Osborne, Corbyn etc etc ??

Absolutely not; I never mentioned him until you pointed him out as some sort of role model. I suggested that his gratitude for Britain's sheltering him, feeding and clothing him and giving him a top class education, all gratis was posted missing by his subsequently trashing the pound to the tune of billions in 1992, earning himself a billion in the process. This struck me as a little ungrateful, to say the least. It also minds me that a lot of damage was done that day to the UK's perception of what is now the EU, and that people have long memories - as evidenced by the age demographic of those who voted leave as opposed to remain.

But I couldn't let the 'escaped from the nazis' line go, cos it just ain't so. He directly profited, by his own admission, from handling property and valuables left behind as his fellow Hungarian Jews were on the train to Auschwitctz, via Terezin. I knew the difference between right and wrong at the age of 14 - everyone does. I quoted 60 Minutes as the source, you sent me a retraction from the Toronto Sun - a textbook example of a strawman.

He's also been convicted of insider trading in France - perhaps that's the cuddly George you'd prefer as well?!

[Rasta_Hibs]

Is non-mainstream media not bias and agenda driven also?

I'd be interested to hear your non-mainstream media recommendations.

I don’t tend to follow any one news outlet or source of information. Rather I take in lots from everywhere. The best sources of information I find come from people who have no agenda other than to report the truth which usually means it is on forums such as this or in the comments sections under articles, people post links to other sources.

I’d say you need to wade through lots and lots of information from different of sources which include mainstream news outlets and then try your best to work out what is disinformation and then disregard it – typically disinformation this comes from places where you would should get truth but IMO instead get an agenda driven narrative like supplied from governments, The EU and the mainstream outlets.

[Hibbyradge]

Absolutely not; I never mentioned him until you pointed him out as some sort of role model. I suggested that his gratitude for Britain's sheltering him, feeding and clothing him and giving him a top class education, all gratis was posted missing by his subsequently trashing the pound to the tune of billions in 1992, earning himself a billion in the process. This struck me as a little ungrateful, to say the least. It also minds me that a lot of damage was done that day to the UK's perception of what is now the EU, and that people have long memories - as evidenced by the age demographic of those who voted leave as opposed to remain.

But I couldn't let the 'escaped from the nazis' line go, cos it just ain't so. He directly profited, by his own admission, from handling property and valuables left behind as his fellow Hungarian Jews were on the train to Auschwitctz, via Terezin. I knew the difference between right and wrong at the age of 14 - everyone does. I quoted 60 Minutes as the source, you sent me a retraction from the Toronto Sun - a textbook example of a strawman.

He's also been convicted of insider trading in France - perhaps that's the cuddly George you'd prefer as well?!

I'm not particularly bothered about George Soras, but the psychology of those events interest me and I don't think it's quite a simple as you suggest.

Experiments such as Milgram and blue eyes/brown eyes among other, show that what is right and wrong is extremely subjective and are governed by circumstances and people's beliefs and values.

[High-On-Hibs]

RBS down by over 20%.

Doesn't it just feel great being punished for something we never voted for? :rolleyes:

[Benny Brazil]

RBS down by over 20%.

Doesn't it just feel great being punished for something we never voted for? :rolleyes:

No but am sure there is people across the UK saying the same thing

[Hibernia&Alba]

RBS down by over 20%.

Doesn't it just feel great being punished for something we never voted for? :rolleyes:

I don't care about the stock market, mate. Anyway, RBS is owned by us, the taxpayer. I care about the consequences upon those who are already suffering from globalisation and how the absence of EU social protection will affect them. Ironically enough, many of those areas voted Brexit most heavily in England and Wales!

[High-On-Hibs]

No but am sure there is people across the UK saying the same thing

Why can't people accept that there is a clear political divide between Scotland and England? It is painfully obvious, yet there are people who continue to deny it.

Right now we're keeping a broken marriage together out of the fear of leaving. They never work out....

[Benny Brazil]

Why can't people accept that there is a clear political divide between Scotland and England? It is painfully obvious, yet there are people who continue to deny it.

Right now we're keeping a broken marriage together out of the fear of leaving. They never work out....

Where did I deny it?
Whether you like it or not there are people in England, Wales, N Ireland who did vote to remain who will be feeling just as angry about this as we do.
Right now we should be focussing on a way forward for the UK as a whole, the impact is being felt by everyone and in reality nothing has changed just yet.

[High-On-Hibs]

Where did I deny it?
Whether you like it or not there are people in England, Wales, N Ireland who did vote to remain who will be feeling just as angry about this as we do.
Right now we should be focussing on a way forward for the UK as a whole, the impact is being felt by everyone and in reality nothing has changed just yet.

Where was I accusing you of denying it? Did I say "you" specifically?

Why water brush the fact that we didn't want this to happen? You say we need to focus on moving forward as the UK on the whole. Despite the fact that we've just taken a huge step backwards. I really don't see where the UK can go from here. They'll have negations with Brussels and won't have a clue what to ask for. All the big hitters in the brexit campaign didn't really want this result to happen. That's why they've all gone into hiding. They don't have the foggiest idea on where to go from here.

[AndyM_1875]

So when is the Emergency Budget likely to be that George Osbourne said would happen in event there was a Leave vote and what do folk think the Tories might put in this apart from more Local Authority Austerity Measures and will the S N P continue to implement these cuts



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Emergency Budget will be in October via a new Prime Minister. I would not put money on Boris now, his stock has slumped badly since Friday morning. He's been unmasked as a liar. People are suffering Buyer's Regret over voting Leave as that campaign has unravelled to be a plan-less tissue of lies over NHS funding and Immigration and according to reports this morning there is a plan to have a "stop Boris" candidate, probably Therasa May.

The Emergency Budget will be draconian as well. I am far from convinced whether it is Boris or May that the Govt will pull the trigger on Article 50 and they certainly won't have done it by then anyway.
After that budget has sunk in and taxes have risen they may indeed call another Referendum (this time binding) on whether to call A50.

[Benny Brazil]

Where was I accusing you of denying it? Did I say "you" specifically?

Why water brush the fact that we didn't want this to happen? You say we need to focus on moving forward as the UK on the whole. Despite the fact that we've just taken a huge step backwards. I really don't see where the UK can go from here. They'll have negations with Brussels and won't have a clue what to ask for. All the big hitters in the brexit campaign didn't really want this result to happen. That's why they've all gone into hiding. They don't have the foggiest idea on where to go from here.

You quote my post and then say "Why can't people accept that there is a clear political divide between Scotland and England? It is painfully obvious, yet there are people who continue to deny it.

What am I meant to think?

Whether you or I like it or not we are still part of the UK for now. So until that changes we need to be working with the rest of the UK to make sure the financial impact of this decision is limited as much as possible.

[High-On-Hibs]

You quote my post and then say "Why can't people accept that there is a clear political divide between Scotland and England? It is painfully obvious, yet there are people who continue to deny it.

What am I meant to think?

Whether you or I like it or not we are still part of the UK for now. So until that changes we need to be working with the rest of the UK to make sure the financial impact of this decision is limited as much as possible.

I don't disagree with you. I just believe there is nothing they can do. It's inevitable that people are going to be feeling a great deal of frustration right now and I just happen to be one of them. So apologies if i'm coming off the wrong way.

[Benny Brazil]

I don't disagree with you. I just believe there is nothing they can do. It's inevitable that people are going to be feeling a great deal of frustration right now and I just happen to be one of them. So apologies if i'm coming off the wrong way.

:aok:

It's certainly a worrying, confusing and frustrating time for everyone.

[magpie1892]

I'm not particularly bothered about George Soras, but the psychology of those events interest me and I don't think it's quite a simple as you suggest.

Experiments such as Milgram and blue eyes/brown eyes among other, show that what is right and wrong is extremely subjective and are governed by circumstances and people's beliefs and values.

I agree. I am not over-analysing Soros' behaviour at the time. Would you do the same to stay alive? Would I? Difficult to answer unless you're faced with the reality. While I'd absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, assume the role of a Christian Godson of a Hungarian Cabinet Minister to stay out of the clutches of the nazis, I'm really not sure - even aged 14 - that I would do what Soros did entier.

What is beyond dispute, is that (a young) Soros aided, abetted and personally profited from the destruction of his fellow Hungarian Jews and to posit that he 'escaped from the nazis' is a total fabrication. He's also a convicted insider trader from the early part of this century. Not sure he can use age as an excuse for that miscreance. Indeed, he never used his age in 1944 as an excuse for his behaviour, he actually went on record saying that the property was going to be removed anyhow, so, in effect, why not by him?

On that basis, I object to George Soros being trumpeted as anything other than a role model for greed and illegal financial practice. His own words damn him, and citing retractions from media other than the source I quoted don't achieve anything other than reveal a poverty of counter-argument, and build a strawman of such magnitude that it would put the size of the Wicker Man where Sgt. Howie met his end to shame.

I've done two really despicable things in my life. One when I was 13, one when I was 16. One was illegal at the time, the other illegal now. Recollection of both or either makes my cheeks burn in shame, but I have never profited from genocide...

[Rasta_Hibs]

George Soros is has also been meddling in the Ukraine situation.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/leaked-george-soros-puppet-master-behind-ukrainian-regime/206574/

[High-On-Hibs]

For the brexiters that are effectively cheering the fact the George Osborne hasn't came out and specifically stated that he is going to implement an austerity budget (above and beyond what has already been implemented). That doesn't mean that it isn't still going to happen. He's obviously not going to come out and word it that way at this stage, it would create even greater chaos if he did.

[CropleyWasGod]

George Soros is has also been meddling in the Ukraine situation.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/leaked-george-soros-puppet-master-behind-ukrainian-regime/206574/
He also funds, through his OSF initiative, a charity I am involved in. He does that from the point of view that Governments ate not always the best people to make laws that shape our moral framework. We are forever grateful to him for that.

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[bigwheel]

I agree. I am not over-analysing Soros' behaviour at the time. Would you do the same to stay alive? Would I? Difficult to answer unless you're faced with the reality. While I'd absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, assume the role of a Christian Godson of a Hungarian Cabinet Minister to stay out of the clutches of the nazis, I'm really not sure - even aged 14 - that I would do what Soros did entier.

What is beyond dispute, is that (a young) Soros aided, abetted and personally profited from the destruction of his fellow Hungarian Jews and to posit that he 'escaped from the nazis' is a total fabrication. He's also a convicted insider trader from the early part of this century. Not sure he can use age as an excuse for that miscreance. Indeed, he never used his age in 1944 as an excuse for his behaviour, he actually went on record saying that the property was going to be removed anyhow, so, in effect, why not by him?

On that basis, I object to George Soros being trumpeted as anything other than a role model for greed and illegal financial practice. His own words damn him, and citing retractions from media other than the source I quoted don't achieve anything other than reveal a poverty of counter-argument, and build a strawman of such magnitude that it would put the size of the Wicker Man where Sgt. Howie met his end to shame.

I've done two really despicable things in my life. One when I was 13, one when I was 16. One was illegal at the time, the other illegal now. Recollection of both or either makes my cheeks burn in shame, but I have never profited from genocide...

It's your lack of balance that suggests you have an agenda - he has distributed 45% of his personal wealth to charitable causes ...why don't you explore that topic ? Soros is often targeted by ultra conservatives in the US , they have failed to get any impact on both his philanthropic or investment activity ...it feels like you are coming at the man from the same perspective. I'd much rather be in his team than theirs ...

[Rasta_Hibs]

He also funds, through his OSF initiative, a charity I am involved in. He does that from the point of view that Governments ate not always the best people to make laws that shape our moral framework. We are forever grateful to him for that.

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I suppose charity work enables him to carry out his dirty work behind the scenes.

A lot of the most wicked in the world use charity work as a front.

[Hibbyradge]

I agree. I am not over-analysing Soros' behaviour at the time. Would you do the same to stay alive? Would I? Difficult to answer unless you're faced with the reality. While I'd absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, assume the role of a Christian Godson of a Hungarian Cabinet Minister to stay out of the clutches of the nazis, I'm really not sure - even aged 14 - that I would do what Soros did entier.

What is beyond dispute, is that (a young) Soros aided, abetted and personally profited from the destruction of his fellow Hungarian Jews and to posit that he 'escaped from the nazis' is a total fabrication. He's also a convicted insider trader from the early part of this century. Not sure he can use age as an excuse for that miscreance. Indeed, he never used his age in 1944 as an excuse for his behaviour, he actually went on record saying that the property was going to be removed anyhow, so, in effect, why not by him?

On that basis, I object to George Soros being trumpeted as anything other than a role model for greed and illegal financial practice. His own words damn him, and citing retractions from media other than the source I quoted don't achieve anything other than reveal a poverty of counter-argument, and build a strawman of such magnitude that it would put the size of the Wicker Man where Sgt. Howie met his end to shame.

I've done two really despicable things in my life. One when I was 13, one when I was 16. One was illegal at the time, the other illegal now. Recollection of both or either makes my cheeks burn in shame, but I have never profited from genocide...

Great post. I'm not in total agreement with it, but you make some interesting points.

Most Germans in 1935, for example, could never have seen themselves behaving how they eventually did.

However, I'm sure you take my point, so I'll leave that discussion for another day.

If we ever meet, we can swap regrettable incidents from our youth. 😐

[Just Alf]

I suppose charity work enables him to carry out his dirty work behind the scenes.

A lot of the most wicked in the world use charity work as a front.
Hoping im being "whooshed" here :D


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[Rasta_Hibs]

Hoping im being "whooshed" here :D


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Lol I'm no explaining myself well I know.

I mean the man is a globalist. He doesn't respect nation states, me meddles in their affairs for his own profits and also for the globalist agenda.

He is **** in my eyes hence why I talk of his dirty work.

I was trying to say that a lot of people who commit crimes against humanity also work for charities as its a good front for their image.

[Just Alf]

Lol I'm no explaining myself well I know.

I mean the man is a globalist. He doesn't respect nation states, me meddles in their affairs for his own profits and also for the globalist agenda.

He is **** in my eyes hence why I talk of his dirty work.

I was trying to say that a lot of people who commit crimes against humanity also work for charities as its a good front for their image.
Gotcha! ... on phone and dont know the thumbs up smiley.. just pretend its there ----> xx

:D



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[magpie1892]

It's your lack of balance that suggests you have an agenda - he has distributed 45% of his personal wealth to charitable causes ...why don't you explore that topic ? Soros is often targeted by ultra conservatives in the US , they have failed to get any impact on both his philanthropic or investment activity ...it feels like you are coming at the man from the same perspective. I'd much rather be in his team than theirs ...

My agenda is this: Soros is no role model. That is my opinion formed by what he's done rather than any political affiliations I may or may not have. Just facts. Inalienable facts.

I'm happy to agree to differ with you on this one, I'm just saying that the 'escaped from the nazis' line is a lie, and he has a criminal financial background. Inalienable facts.

The man he is/was doesn't work for me in terms of someone to look up to, but if it does it for you then I respect that. I just couldn't let the lies go. The 60 Minutes source is impeccable. Inalienable facts.

I'm pleased, though, that we've managed a primarily civil discourse on this matter but on one point at least, you were materially wrong - and Soros' own words back up my position.

Not much else to be said. We're not coming round to each other's POV, clearly, but I did feel that a couple of things needed to be set straight.

[High-On-Hibs]

Nigel has crawled out of the wood works to tell us that if Scotland held another referendum, we would lose by an even larger margin than last time round.

Surely that's all the motivation Scotland needs?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nigel has crawled out of the wood works to tell us that if Scotland held another referendum, we would lose by an even larger margin than last time round.

Surely that's all the motivation Scotland needs?


That guy would be yes best weapon!!

[Pete]

Nigel has crawled out of the wood works to tell us that if Scotland held another referendum, we would lose by an even larger margin than last time round.

Surely that's all the motivation Scotland needs?

His record at guessing the results of referendums is quite bad so far.

P.s. I think the Yes side would romp it.

[ronaldo7]

This will be the brexit premium then.

It started with 13 Frigates, then down to 8, now it's value for money.

http://bit.ly/292nKzU

[High-On-Hibs]

May as well start making up the campaign leaflets early. We have a long road ahead of us....

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2058epi.jpg

[Rasta_Hibs]

May as well start making up the campaign leaflets early. We have a long road ahead of us....

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2058epi.jpg

I think the UK argument will win again and more convincingly than the last time so Nigel is not far of the mark IMO.

[bigwheel]

My agenda is this: Soros is no role model. That is my opinion formed by what he's done rather than any political affiliations I may or may not have. Just facts. Inalienable facts.

I'm happy to agree to differ with you on this one, I'm just saying that the 'escaped from the nazis' line is a lie, and he has a criminal financial background. Inalienable facts.

The man he is/was doesn't work for me in terms of someone to look up to, but if it does it for you then I respect that. I just couldn't let the lies go. The 60 Minutes source is impeccable. Inalienable facts.

I'm pleased, though, that we've managed a primarily civil discourse on this matter but on one point at least, you were materially wrong - and Soros' own words back up my position.

Not much else to be said. We're not coming round to each other's POV, clearly, but I did feel that a couple of things needed to be set straight.

Magpie...I agree - good exchange of views...I don't be agree with a number of your points and equally you on my points...but I do enjoy the exploration from both sides... Decent debate!


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[High-On-Hibs]

I think the UK argument will win again and more convincingly than the last time so Nigel is not far of the mark IMO.

I think you're wrong. But with a name like "Rasta", i'm not surprised you're siding with wee Nigel to be honest.

[magpie1892]

Great post. I'm not in total agreement with it, but you make some interesting points.

Most Germans in 1935, for example, could never have seen themselves behaving how they eventually did.

However, I'm sure you take my point, so I'll leave that discussion for another day.

If we ever meet, we can swap regrettable incidents from our youth. 

Thank you. I welcome reasonable discourse in the future.

Indeed. I read a piece from a German author (a Jew, he was interviewed in the episode of 'The World at War' which addressed the Holocaust, but his name escapes me and the box set is (fittingly) in the box room). Said gentleman was sent to Płaszów, but was young and fit and so not selected for 'special treatment' (although, technically, Płaszów was not an extermination camp). He began forced labour at the camp.

One of his duties was to take the steady stream of corpses from those worked to death or who had succumbed to starvation, typhus, cholera, etc. from the camp to the burial pits about a mile from the barbed wire. The 'dissolution' of Płaszów was, cross-reffing, fairly accurately depicted in 'Schindler's List' where the inmates had to dig up the rotted corpses from the pits and shallow graves and transport them to a nearby, monolithic bonfire to get rid of the evidence as the Soviet Army advanced.

Anyway, said author talked about putting two or three corpses in various states of decay into his wheelbarrow, to take them off to the pyre. En route, one of the corpse's head fell off. He stopped what he was doing, picked up the head, put it back in his barrow and carried on.Turns out it was his mother's head. This incident also came up in his interview on 'The World at War' and he was asked: 'what did you feel?'. He replied: 'Nothing. I was completely emotionally detached from the situation. I knew it could have been, and might as well have been me - but I wanted to live.' He added: 'It was at this point that I realised there was no God'.

He survived and lived to tell the tale. By good fortune and good health he escaped the nazis. Soros didn't experience anything remotely as apocalyptic as this, he did not 'escape from the nazis', but he did profit from their machinations to a considerable degree. Claimed to be broke when he turned up in London a few years later, though. Maybe he had his blood money stashed in Switzerland alongside the gold bars fashioned from Jews' fillings?

Give us a cuddle, George!

[magpie1892]

Magpie...I agree - good exchange of views...I don't be agree with a number of your points and equally you on my points...but I do enjoy the exploration from both sides... Decent debate!


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Definitely. So nice to talk without it resorting to ad hominem after two posts. If you read my latest post, then I respectfully suggest a more, er, 'robust' role model than Soros. Veering into ad hominem myself here - though he is not present to defend himself - I think that Soros is evil embodied.

Bush Snr. is a war criminal, because he knew what he was doing.
Bus Jnr. is not a war criminal, because he is too stupid to know what he was doing

Tony Blair and George Soros are both undoubtedly war criminals - the sharpest duo of the quartet by several degrees.

[SHODAN]

May as well start making up the campaign leaflets early. We have a long road ahead of us....

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2058epi.jpg

This man has no business discussing Scotland.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I think you're wrong. But with a name like "Rasta", i'm not surprised you're siding with wee Nigel to be honest.

Well going by yours its clear to see yir posts are no based in reality!

[Moulin Yarns]

I think the UK argument will win again and more convincingly than the last time so Nigel is not far of the mark IMO.

On what evidence?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

On what evidence?

Im not sure there would be the same tirnout this time, and im not sure that 4-500,000 people who voted no would change their minds, especially if there was a worse econimic situation regards oil price and euro.

[cabbageandribs1875]

farage going down well at the european parliament on sky news just now :greengrin

[--------]

I hate to give Farage credit for anything, but he's probably right.

Immigration was the key issue for a huge proportion of the Leave vote.

People voted to stop the migrants without a thought about anything else. The Leave propaganda even included pictures of Syria and Iraq as if they're in the EU!

Seemingly, in the wake of the Leave result, the reality started to dawn on people and Google reports that questions like "What is the EU?" were the most searched for in the UK.

We're a laughing stock.


Xenophobia and racism. A nice recipe for disaster.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Xenophobia and racism. A nice recipe for disaster.

It is. And if everyone that voted Brexit was like that then we'd have a huge problem. But they're not, and making such generalisations is also dangerous and devisive. It annoys me how some remainers moan about the intolerance of others with absolutely no sense of irony.

Yes there are some racists, and yes they are **** and should be locked up. This is how the vast vast many of Brexit voters feel so remainers should not be so ignorant and imply otherwise. It's one of the things the whole country agrees on and everyone needs to accept and acknowledge this to help reunite the country.

[Kato]

Yes there are some racists, and yes they are **** and should be locked up. This is how the vast vast many of Brexit voters feel

How do you know that?