Board - Invest or leave (Chicken Licken On Standby)

[Baldy Foghorn]

I know there is no hidden context my man. I just can not understand why some people refuse to see how important the training centre is/will be and the importance of providing a sound infrastructure such as the stadium.

Of course the infrastructure is vitally important to the Club. The Training facilities and Stadium really are first class......We no need to see the benefits on the park though....Do we have to wait a few years to see this, or should we not really expect a top six finish every Season AT LEAST!!!!!!!!!!

[blackpoolhibs]

I suppose if we'd moved the training centre even further away from edinburgh, we could have found something just as good but cheaper.

Or we could have bought something smaller in edinburgh, maybe for a lot dearer?

I'm sure the club looked at many places, and thought this was the right place at the right price, unless someone can tell me different?

[ELZ1875]

Who said not important? It is important to have one its about the size so please make sure that you state perhaps you dont understand why some people refuse to see how important a larger training center is as a pose to a smaller one.


Carlsberg, apart from this post and my previous post i have never once written your name or directed a post at you.

There has prob been over 100 people post on this thread and you think im talking to you.

Settle yourself


Does my previous post satisfy your ego?

[blackpoolhibs]

Of course the infrastructure is vitally important to the Club. The Training facilities and Stadium really are first class......We no need to see the benefits on the park though....Do we have to wait a few years to see this, or should we not really expect a top six finish every Season AT LEAST!!!!!!!!!!

I believe we should be top 6 every season, in fact i believe we should be fighting every season for a european spot.

Our budget is set up for those targets is it not?

[Captain Trips]

Carlsberg, apart from this post and my previous post i have never once written your name or directed a post at you.

There has prob been over 100 people post on this thread and you think im talking to you.

Settle yourself


Does my previous post satisfy your ego?

I think you need to settle, I am with maybe the exception of 2 or 3 others suggesting the facility was an overspend. You mentioned some people in post I refer too, I would say I was in with a shout of being part of the "some people".

[ELZ1875]

Baldy. go back a few pages, there are some questions i asked but you must have missed them.


In my opinion scottish football had its own recession when the spl lost the tv money. 3 seasons or so ago it looked like we were well on the way to financial recovery when the global recession kicked in.

I remember standing in the terracing when blobby was in charge and i said to my mates then that scottish football would scrape along for the next 5 to 10 years due to our financial crisis and the influx of **** foreigners on big wages stifling our youth.

For me they are the real reasons we are in the situation we find ourselves, not to mention that last year will be proven to be nothing more than a small blip in a few years time.

[Captain Trips]

I believe we should be top 6 every season, in fact i believe we should be fighting every season for a european spot.

Our budget is set up for those targets is it not?

It might well be but what are other clubs set up at? we can only see what other clubs spend in fees we dont know how the pay such players, I would say we have probaly spent more in getting players in but do not know what we are like for paying the players.

[dangermouse]

Missing the point with unfair comparisons BH, I never once stated we should not have a facilty so hopefully the better off training in sheite is aimed at somebody who has staed the entire project was not needed.

I may be cynical but I think first team chances and salary will be what brings players to ER no matter the age.

Not having to train in dog poo might help as well :wink:

If a player has a choice of signing for two teams, both willing to pay the same amount and one has a state of the art training centre, the other shares one with university students so they can only go to the bookies in the afternoon which one do you think he would sign for (unless his name was something like Stokes).

[Captain Trips]

Not having to train in dog poo might help as well :wink:

If a player has a choice of signing for two teams, both willing to pay the same amount and one has a state of the art training centre, the other shares one with university students so they can only go to the bookies in the afternoon which one do you think he would sign for (unless his name was something like Stokes).

DM I never said we shouldnt have a facility!!, if that case occured and we had a smaller facility it would still be better than most other clubs so on your premise they will still join us.

[ELZ1875]

Who said not important? It is important to have one its about the size so please make sure that you state perhaps you dont understand why some people refuse to see how important a larger training center is as a pose to a smaller one.


I said 'how important', not what i have highlighted from your post.

You are spot on, i did say some people, but since you have clearly stated you have never said it is not important, i'd rule you out of being one of those people.

[dangermouse]

I suppose if we'd moved the training centre even further away from edinburgh, we could have found something just as good but cheaper.

Or we could have bought something smaller in edinburgh, maybe for a lot dearer?

I'm sure the club looked at many places, and thought this was the right place at the right price, unless someone can tell me different?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The club certainly didn't buy East Mains on a whim hoping it would be money well spent. They knew exactly what they were doing. They also have enough land to expand it should the need arise.

[ELZ1875]

Carlsberg, do you not think any of what i have posted at the top of this page could be valid?

[Baldy Foghorn]

I believe we should be top 6 every season, in fact i believe we should be fighting every season for a european spot.

Our budget is set up for those targets is it not?

Dont know what our budget is BH, I hope it is enough for the squad to be strengthened in certain areas, to allow us to start challenging again for a European place.....Another season like last year would be a disaster financially.........

[dangermouse]

DM I never said we shouldnt have a facility!!, if that case occured and we had a smaller facility it would still be better than most other clubs so on your premise they will still join us.

I know you would be happier with something smaller but as Blackpool says we may have had to go further outside Edinburgh for something cheaper and it would have been smaller and more expensive closer to the city.

If the main aim of the centre is to provide a good environment to attract, develop and then sell at a profit the youngsters then if this comes to fruition 5M will seem like a drop in the ocean. It may become so successful it needs to expand and we have land available to do so. If on the other hand it becomes a white elephant, we could sell it and move to something smaller or rent somewhere similar to Herriot Watt.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Baldy. go back a few pages, there are some questions i asked but you must have missed them.


In my opinion scottish football had its own recession when the spl lost the tv money. 3 seasons or so ago it looked like we were well on the way to financial recovery when the global recession kicked in.

I remember standing in the terracing when blobby was in charge and i said to my mates then that scottish football would scrape along for the next 5 to 10 years due to our financial crisis and the influx of **** foreigners on big wages stifling our youth.

For me they are the real reasons we are in the situation we find ourselves, not to mention that last year will be proven to be nothing more than a small blip in a few years time.

I answered your questions a few pages back about what I would do if I were in Charge.......

The more I read your posts the more I think you are actually on the board at Hibs:greengrin

Hibs had a chance to negotiate TV money with the rest of the teams and exclude the old firm, but all clubs bottled it....

[ELZ1875]

Even if it is was perhaps more space than we needed at EM, how much would you save? perhaps 1.5-2 million.

Say that money went on the player budget over the last few seasons, 2 at a push maybe 3 signings. there is high chance that we would be exactly where we are now and where we have always been for(almost) the last 20 years. Finishing between 11th and third place.

At least now its money in the bank that can be used to train all our playing squads or we can sell it.

[Captain Trips]

Carlsberg, do you not think any of what i have posted at the top of this page could be valid?

Of course it has validity and merit, at this juncture though it is not a plan I have heard of so my views are based on what is the state of play at the moment. You may be right and things will change in 5, 10 years.

[ELZ1875]

Baldy, ive read most your posts over the last 25 pages.
I know what you would do, i.e marquee player, better ST packages, but how do you plan on funding it?

You cant buy a player without cash. since ST cash is still comin it cant come from there.
And if you gamble and borrow money and you dont get enough ST sales, it would be like a wee trip back ten years ago. Not only would we have spent money we didnt have we now have interest to pay back, but hang on, where will that money come from to pay the interest, player budget? spread it over few seasons then in a few years you get calls from fans for another marquee player.


If it works great but seriously how many clubs in the spl alone have tried and failed?

[Captain Trips]

Even if it is was perhaps more space than we needed at EM, how much would you save? perhaps 1.5-2 million.

Say that money went on the player budget over the last few seasons, 2 at a push maybe 3 signings. there is high chance that we would be exactly where we are now and where we have always been for(almost) the last 20 years. Finishing between 11th and third place.

At least now its money in the bank that can be used to train all our playing squads or we can sell it.

Yes but your argument on where we would be is based on your point of view, I can easily say the money saved went to the debt freeing up a bit more money for players whom we bought and did well with and finished 4th last term. Easy done to suit and neither of us are wrong as it simply cannot be proved.

[ELZ1875]

Carlsberg your views are not based on fact, your view is your opinion.

[Captain Trips]

Even if it is was perhaps more space than we needed at EM, how much would you save? perhaps 1.5-2 million.

Say that money went on the player budget over the last few seasons, 2 at a push maybe 3 signings. there is high chance that we would be exactly where we are now and where we have always been for(almost) the last 20 years. Finishing between 11th and third place.

At least now its money in the bank that can be used to train all our playing squads or we can sell it.


What you have stated above is also an opinion and not fact, that is the post I was answering with my opinion vs your opinion

[ELZ1875]

Yes but your argument on where we would be is based on your point of view, I can easily say the money saved went to the debt freeing up a bit more money for players whom we bought and did well with and finished 4th last term. Easy done to suit and neither of us are wrong as it simply cannot be proved.

Spot on, but what is a fact is that almost every other club has speculated to accumulate, it does not matter about the size of the figures involved. debt is debt and interest is repayable.

For me i think it has almost been proven that speculate to accumulate alone in the spl does not work.

It might work, you might just need a solid proven infrastructure to allow for such things.

[ELZ1875]

Of course it has validity and merit, at this juncture though it is not a plan I have heard of so my views are based on what is the state of play at the moment. You may be right and things will change in 5, 10 years.

To you, the state of play is that EM is too big. Your views are based on your views.
That is what we are waiting to be proven.

[ELZ1875]

What you have stated above is also an opinion and not fact, that is the post I was answering with my opinion vs your opinion

The point about money in the bank is fact.

I never claimed that the rest was fact. Its clear its not.

[dangermouse]

Baldy, ive read most your posts over the last 25 pages.
I know what you would do, i.e marquee player, better ST packages, but how do you plan on funding it?

I'm still waiting to hear who this marquee player would be. I don't think we can afford one. :confused:

[Captain Trips]

To you, the state of play is that EM is too big. Your views are based on your views.
That is what we are waiting to be proven.

But it being the right size equally will need proven I would say, the only facts are it is built and in place. How good or bad it is, how to big or to small or just right it is, is all conjecture. So your views like mine are based on your views.

At the moment I would say yes it is in its infancy for sure but I have not noticed anything different at Easter Raod since it has been in place to tell me they are traing at such a place, in fact some of the clowns at ER look like they are still training in dog sheite.

[Captain Trips]

The point about money in the bank is fact.

I never claimed that the rest was fact. Its clear its not.

What money in the bank is fact?

[silverhibee]

Which training centre was it that produced Riordan, O'Connor, Brown, Thomson, Whittaker? They had nothing tae do with training facilities.


The Donald Park train where ever wee can training centre. :greengrin

[Baldy Foghorn]

Baldy, ive read most your posts over the last 25 pages.
I know what you would do, i.e marquee player, better ST packages, but how do you plan on funding it?

You cant buy a player without cash. since ST cash is still comin it cant come from there.
And if you gamble and borrow money and you dont get enough ST sales, it would be like a wee trip back ten years ago. Not only would we have spent money we didnt have we now have interest to pay back, but hang on, where will that money come from to pay the interest, player budget? spread it over few seasons then in a few years you get calls from fans for another marquee player.


If it works great but seriously how many clubs in the spl alone have tried and failed?

We are nowhere near as bad off financially as we were ten years ago....Even if we borrowed half a million and repaid it over a number of years we would not be in as bad a state as we previously were.......Unless we took out said half a million with wonga.com

[silverhibee]

Would you not argue that two of the best performers this season have come through the academy? Booth in particular appears to have benefited immensely from it.


Who was the other best performer this season apart from Booth. :confused:

[ELZ1875]

Of course it has validity and merit, at this juncture though it is not a plan I have heard of so my views are based on what is the state of play at the moment. You may be right and things will change in 5, 10 years.

That is the bit that is getting me, what is the state of play?

For me Booth and Hanlon are the first to show us its benefits, nothing to with ability, to me they both look proper dedicated proffesionals, i think that is something EM will bring, a different culture

[blackpoolhibs]

We are nowhere near as bad off financially as we were ten years ago....Even if we borrowed half a million and repaid it over a number of years we would not be in as bad a state as we previously were.......Unless we took out said half a million with wonga.com

It started of at £200k- £300k. Now we are up to £500k **** it, lets borrow a million. :wink:

[Stevie Reid]

It's funny how in the lead up to the 20th anniversary of Hands Off Hibs (and when we were above Hearts in the league) we were rightly patting ourselves on the back for getting ourselves from the brink of oblivion to where we are now in 20 years, all whilst laughing at our neigbour's messed up financial situation.

One year and a very poor season on and some believe that we have actually got everything single thing wrong, and need to spend (even further) beyond our means to get things going again. It would be the beginning of a very slippery slope.

Let's bear in mind that we didn't get in £17M worth of debt by having a huge spending spree in one year - Jim Duffy p!ssed money up against the wall on rubbish, we were relegated and took the financial hit from that, then spent big to get out of the division, before spending the Sky money for the next two seasons before the ultimate meltdown where we almost lost ER.

It's easy to overlook our achievements when we've had as poor a season as we've just had, but let's not dismiss them. For a team like Hibs building a team will always be an ongoing thing - the same cannot be said for our infrastructure which, allied with a competitive wage budget, should see us challenging in the top half every season. There are no guarantees of course, but we've given ourselves every chance.

[Baldy Foghorn]

It started of at £200k- £300k. Now we are up to £500k **** it, lets borrow a million. :wink:

I am demanding I will give you that, let's go for goals and glory:greengrin

[silverhibee]

Steve Reid, do you mean like, plan for the long term future of our club, sort of laying the foundations?

Like we might have to suffer a tighter budget for say 5 or so seasons to ensure the club can thrive for the next 20 years without having to worry about anything other than paying wages and transfer fees?

Is that what you are saying?


If wee have to put up with the crap wee went through last season for the next five seasons then yes wee do have something to worry about, playing in front of empty stands will be a big worry, another season like the last one and wee could be playing in front of 5000 supporters if wee are lucky.

[Baldy Foghorn]

If wee have to put up with the crap wee went through last season for the next five seasons then yes wee do have something to worry about, playing in front of empty stands will be a big worry, another season like the last one and wee could be playing in front of 5000 supporters if wee are lucky.

Totally agree SH, we cannot afford to play in front of 5-7K supporters at home, we have to utilise our Stands on matchdays.....:agree:

[ELZ1875]

We are nowhere near as bad off financially as we were ten years ago....Even if we borrowed half a million and repaid it over a number of years we would not be in as bad a state as we previously were.......Unless we took out said half a million with wonga.com

Never said we were, but what do you expect for 500k over, say 3 seasons?



Carlsbeg, the land that EM is on is money in the bank. Even if it is surplus :wink:

[Captain Trips]

That is the bit that is getting me, what is the state of play?

For me Booth and Hanlon are the first to show us its benefits, nothing to with ability, to me they both look proper dedicated proffesionals, i think that is something EM will bring, a different culture

Ok that is for you and it is your opinion, I personally dont think it is something tangible IMO that we have 2 good pro's due to EM, we have had good pros before and will in the future and it is all down to individuals. It is not all about young players it is about the whole squad and as good as Booth and Hanlons attitude is, I have seen the reverse in a few players so what is EM role in that, I am not saying it is EM as to why players attitude is good or bad.

I would argue that the culture over the last 12months has been the worst I have seen in many years.

IMO Booth and Hanlon are decent pros and would have been due to who they are first and foremost.

[Captain Trips]

Never said we were, but what do you expect for 500k over, say 3 seasons?



Carlsbeg, the land that EM is on is money in the bank. Even if it is surplus :wink:

But you were not sure if it is even paid for as yet, I had assumed with the Brown and Thomson fees we just bought it, anyone?

[PaulSmith]

But you were not sure if it is even paid for as yet, I had assumed with the Brown and Thomson fees we just bought it, anyone?

Fully paid and bought up. No mortgage or any other o/s payments bar running costs.

[Captain Trips]

Fully paid and bought up. No mortgage or any other o/s payments bar running costs.

Cheers Paul

[ELZ1875]

Ok that is for you and it is your opinion, I personally dont think it is something tangible IMO that we have 2 good pro's due to EM, we have had good pros before and will in the future and it is all down to individuals. It is not all about young players it is about the whole squad and as good as Booth and Hanlons attitude is, I have seen the reverse in a few players so what is EM role in that, I am not saying it is EM as to why players attitude is good or bad.

I would argue that the culture over the last 12months has been the worst I have seen in many years.

IMO Booth and Hanlon are decent pros and would have been due to who they are first and foremost.

Have you known them both since they were 16?

Em isnt somewhere to change players we sign, it could hopefully provide our youth with a sense of pride and proffesionalism. Not a bad habit to get into from a young age.

Also a place to attract better players when our budget allows, maybe a season are or 3.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Never said we were, but what do you expect for 500k over, say 3 seasons?

Carlsbeg, the land that EM is on is money in the bank. Even if it is surplus :wink:

An experienced quality pro nearing end of his career to help bring younsters through games with his knowledge....A Sauzee type maybe?

[brydekirk]

:top marks
It's funny how in the lead up to the 20th anniversary of Hands Off Hibs (and when we were above Hearts in the league) we were rightly patting ourselves on the back for getting ourselves from the brink of oblivion to where we are now in 20 years, all whilst laughing at our neigbour's messed up financial situation.

One year and a very poor season on and some believe that we have actually got everything single thing wrong, and need to spend (even further) beyond our means to get things going again. It would be the beginning of a very slippery slope.

Let's bear in mind that we didn't get in £17M worth of debt by having a huge spending spree in one year - Jim Duffy p!ssed money up against the wall on rubbish, we were relegated and took the financial hit from that, then spent big to get out of the division, before spending the Sky money for the next two seasons before the ultimate meltdown where we almost lost ER.

It's easy to overlook our achievements when we've had as poor a season as we've just had, but let's not dismiss them. For a team like Hibs building a team will always be an ongoing thing - the same cannot be said for our infrastructure which, allied with a competitive wage budget, should see us challenging in the top half every season. There are no guarantees of course, but we've given ourselves every chance.

[Captain Trips]

Have you known them both since they were 16?

Em isnt somewhere to change players we sign, it could hopefully provide our youth with a sense of pride and proffesionalism. Not a bad habit to get into from a young age.

Also a place to attract better players when our budget allows, maybe a season are or 3.

If I have known them since 16 is irrelevant, we have had good pros before EM so there is no tangabile way that it can be stated they are what they are due to EM so knowing them IMO is irrelevant, I will ask you again about other players at ER who dont have the same attitude whom also use EM, what of them.

It is down to the individuals, I belive we will still get other young players who will show different attitudes to those 2 also.

[ELZ1875]

An experienced quality pro nearing end of his career to help bring younsters through games with his knowledge....A Sauzee type maybe?

De Graff? Liam Miller to a certain extent?

[Baldy Foghorn]

De Graff? Liam Miller to a certain extent?

Miller never did it for me....De Graff coming back may well be a solution, if he brings some sort of form that resembles why he was successful in Holland....He never did well in his spell here, so I hope he can produce better form....

[The_Sauz]

(my opinion)
I think Hibs will find it hard to bring in other players from around Scotland, and I don't mean wages or training facilities, but because our supporters have got a bad reputation for booing players who have lost form and in general getting on players backs at any given time!
And before anybody asks, that info comes from 2 Agents and 4 Coaches I know in the Scottish game :agree:

[ELZ1875]

If I have known the since 16 is irrelevant, we have had good pros before EM so there is no tangabile way that it can be stated they are what they are due to EM so knowing them IMO is irrelevant, I will ask you again about other players at ER who dont have the same attitude whom also use EM, what of them.

It is down to the individuals I belive we still get other young players who will show different attitudes to those 2 also.

I already have answered you its not to change players. Remeber you have to mould the youth and if they dont step up they will be out. How many of the u19 treble winning side were emptied?

[Stevie Reid]

Miller never did it for me....De Graff coming back may well be a solution, if he brings sum sort of form that resembles why he was successful in Holland....He never did well in his spell here, so I hope he can produce better form....

I think the point is that the board have already sanctioned such signings but they didn't work out, and that is not their fault. The budget is there again for such a player to be brought in, especially with Miller leaving - but Calderwood is the one who has to get it right.

[ELZ1875]

I think De Graff could, there was definite glimpses for me. You could not expect one player to change last season.

Spot on again Steven Reid!

[Steve20]

(my opinion)
I think Hibs will find it hard to bring in other players from around Scotland, and I don't mean wages or training facilities, but because our supporters have got a bad reputation for booing players who have lost form and in general getting on players backs at any given time!
And before anybody asks, that info comes from 2 Agents and 4 Coaches I know in the Scottish game :agree:

We are no worse than most other teams.

[Gatecrasher]

It's funny how in the lead up to the 20th anniversary of Hands Off Hibs (and when we were above Hearts in the league) we were rightly patting ourselves on the back for getting ourselves from the brink of oblivion to where we are now in 20 years, all whilst laughing at our neigbour's messed up financial situation.

One year and a very poor season on and some believe that we have actually got everything single thing wrong, and need to spend (even further) beyond our means to get things going again. It would be the beginning of a very slippery slope.

Let's bear in mind that we didn't get in £17M worth of debt by having a huge spending spree in one year - Jim Duffy p!ssed money up against the wall on rubbish, we were relegated and took the financial hit from that, then spent big to get out of the division, before spending the Sky money for the next two seasons before the ultimate meltdown where we almost lost ER.

It's easy to overlook our achievements when we've had as poor a season as we've just had, but let's not dismiss them. For a team like Hibs building a team will always be an ongoing thing - the same cannot be said for our infrastructure which, allied with a competitive wage budget, should see us challenging in the top half every season. There are no guarantees of course, but we've given ourselves every chance.
:agree:

When you think we have gone from "going out of business" to whats basically a brand new stadium, training facilities and a more managable debt. We have had a few turns in Europe a trophy and some of the best place to play in our green and white.

The last couple of years have been pish but perspective is needed, unfortunately thats somehting some people on here are not capable off.

Keep the Faith

[Captain Trips]

I already have answered you its not to change players. Remeber you have to mould the youth and if they dont step up they will be out. How many of the u19 treble winning side were emptied?

Why is it not to change players? it is for lots of things who are you or I to decide what it is for? Lets not get ahead of ourselves with Booth and Hanlon as yet, lots of players were emptied from the u19s as will be from future teams with or without EM.

[Stevie Reid]

I think De Graff could, there was definite glimpses for me. You could not expect one player to change last season.

We all had good reason to be excited about the arrival of De Graaf last season, his attributes and pedigree sounded like exactly what we needed, and the videos looked good too! He was disappointing but I believe much of the criticism of him was OTT, and indicative of the general feeling around the club (and towards the manager who signed him, in particular) at the time.

Although the signs aren't good, I'm not ready to write him off yet - I do fear how any other new signings of his ilk may be treated if they have an inauspicious start, though.

[ELZ1875]

Why sign a player when you have to start changing their attitude, unless they are under the age of 21/22.

Im not getting ahead of myself, you just dismissed Booth and Hanlon being influenced by EM based on the fact you think they were good guys anyway.

The cull of the u19 was severe for such a successful squad, might have been cause they didnt have the right attitude, maybe not.

[HibsMax]

Spend more, spend less. Spend more, spend less.

25 pages of unimaginative bickering.

Cold hard fact - Teams with a MUCH smaller player budgets have outperformed Hibs on many occasions over the last good few years.

Born winners (Collins) and reasonably successful coaches (Hughes) couldn't sustain any run of consistency at Hibs. Mixu (who appeared to be utterly hopeless) has left Hibs and gone on to show that he is quite a handy manager and tactically sound.

The problem at Hibs is attitude amongst the playing staff. Teams who can't find a win, who can miraculously beat Rangers when the fancy takes them. Teams who can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Controversial, but I reckon that due to recent departures the playing staff attitude may well improve dramatically over the coming season. I think it is no surprise that our one cup success came in a year when a certain person was AWOL.
You got here just in the nick of time to rescue us all from our dull imaginations. Thanks for that. :rolleyes:

I actually agree with what you're saying but you can climb down off your high horse now. LOL.

[ELZ1875]

You got here just in the nick of time to rescue us all from our dull imaginations. Thanks for that. :rolleyes:

I actually agree with what you're saying but you can climb down off your high horse now. LOL.

I said about 7 pages ago this could be the most pointless thread ever. its only worth reading from about page 22 roughly from when i became involved :greengrin

[HibsMax]

Of course the infrastructure is vitally important to the Club. The Training facilities and Stadium really are first class......We no need to see the benefits on the park though....Do we have to wait a few years to see this, or should we not really expect a top six finish every Season AT LEAST!!!!!!!!!!

I would argue that there are very few teams in the SPL that should expect anything outside of the OF and Hearts. Looking at the past few seasons shows you that the remaining SPL teams are constantly swapping positions.

[Beefster]

I said about 7 pages ago this could be the most pointless thread ever. its only worth reading from about page 22 roughly from when i became involved :greengrin

For someone who hasn't actually contributed much to debate on this site, you have an awfully high opinion of your contributions.

[sahib]

:agree:

When you think we have gone from "going out of business" to whats basically a brand new stadium, training facilities and a more managable debt. We have had a few turns in Europe a trophy and some of the best place to play in our green and white.

The last couple of years have been pish but perspective is needed, unfortunately thats somehting some people on here are not capable off.

Keep the Faith

If a cinema showed really poor films for months on end stretching to two years ( your time frame ) then people would stop going or at least pick and choose. The cinema couldn't rely on the customers to say "fair do's I saw some great films here in the past".

[Baldy Foghorn]

I think the point is that the board have already sanctioned such signings but they didn't work out, and that is not their fault. The budget is there again for such a player to be brought in, especially with Miller leaving - but Calderwood is the one who has to get it right.

Lets hope he can entice some of his targets from down South that will improve us then Stevie

[ELZ1875]

For someone who hasn't actually contributed much to debate on this site, you have an awfully high opinion of your contributions.

And?
Is this the 1st place in the world you can debate?
Do hibs fans only debate on hibs.net or perhaps debates about the Hibees have went on for decades, just not on the internet?
What does my post tally have to do with it?

Maybe my smiley button aint workin, i can see it on my screen, can you see it on my previous post

[Beefster]

And?
Is this the 1st place in the world you can debate?
Do hibs fans only debate on hibs.net or perhaps debates about the Hibees have went on for decades, just not on the internet?
What does my post tally have to do with it?

I wasn't talking about your contributions elsewhere. I was talking about your contributions on this site.

Fell free to put the handbag down whenever you fancy.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I would argue that there are very few teams in the SPL that should expect anything outside of the OF and Hearts. Looking at the past few seasons shows you that the remaining SPL teams are constantly swapping positions.

Hibs are a BIG club in the SPL, the Board said at AGM their ambition was to be in top four every Season....We should expect to be in the top six every season as a minimum imo......

[Baldy Foghorn]

I really am curious to find out how many season tickets have been purchased/renewed, as I think we could be well down on last year, maybe even halved?

[Captain Trips]

Why sign a player when you have to start changing their attitude, unless they are under the age of 21/22.

Im not getting ahead of myself, you just dismissed Booth and Hanlon being influenced by EM based on the fact you think they were good guys anyway.

The cull of the u19 was severe for such a successful squad, might have been cause they didnt have the right attitude, maybe not.

I dismissed EM based on I think individuals are who they are regardless of EM and I dont share your same views on the 2 players as you do, I think they are good players but do not see anything at all to suggest EM has had any influence on them as a pose to all whom went before.

[Albion Hibs]

Why sign a player when you have to start changing their attitude, unless they are under the age of 21/22.

Im not getting ahead of myself, you just dismissed Booth and Hanlon being influenced by EM based on the fact you think they were good guys anyway.

The cull of the u19 was severe for such a successful squad, might have been cause they didnt have the right attitude, maybe not.

The cull of the under 19's was surely down to soley the fact they were not good enough. They had chances in pre-season and on loan. I am sure there attitude was just fine, unfortunatly their ability was not were it needed to be. Training centre or not they would not have been at hibs next season.

[HibsMax]

:agree:

When you think we have gone from "going out of business" to whats basically a brand new stadium, training facilities and a more managable debt. We have had a few turns in Europe a trophy and some of the best place to play in our green and white.

The last couple of years have been pish but perspective is needed, unfortunately thats somehting some people on here are not capable off.

Keep the Faith

Agreed. The problem is, even though it's necessary to go through this sort of transition, who wants to witness it? If Hibs have a team capable of challenging the OF in, say, 10 years, would the slow progress be worth it? Or should we be pulling out all the stops to achieve that NOW? I'm not suggesting that we sit back and "enjoy" 20 years of rebuilding but we need some patience if we want to see permanent change (permanent here meaning more than one or maybe two great seasons).

[ELZ1875]

I wasn't talking about your contributions elsewhere. I was talking about your contributions on this site.

Fell free to put the handbag down whenever you fancy.

So what you are saying is that i need to have x amounts of posts before you will consider my posts worthy or before i can value my own opinion?

What is your point?

[HibsMax]

Why sign a player when you have to start changing their attitude, unless they are under the age of 21/22.

Im not getting ahead of myself, you just dismissed Booth and Hanlon being influenced by EM based on the fact you think they were good guys anyway.

The cull of the u19 was severe for such a successful squad, might have been cause they didnt have the right attitude, maybe not.

Because some players have obvious talent and you think you can get something from them if you can get them to screw the nut. (Randy Moss and Corey Dillon are two NFL players (Pats) that were loose canons but we still got a couple of good years out them). That's why I wouldn't discount signing a player who has off-the-field issues because some players respond well to second chances.

[ELZ1875]

The cull of the under 19's was surely down to soley the fact they were not good enough. They had chances in pre-season and on loan. I am sure there attitude was just fine, unfortunatly their ability was not were it needed to be. Training centre or not they would not have been at hibs next season.

You can say for 100% certainty it wasnt their attitude in their earlier years that made them fail to reach the grade and it wasnt their attitude in any way shape or form in recent years?

[HibsMax]

I said about 7 pages ago this could be the most pointless thread ever. its only worth reading from about page 22 roughly from when i became involved :greengrin

Ha Ha Ha!

Given the passion I think this has been a pretty decent thread. Not quite as much name-calling as we've seen in the past. I don't know about ALL the posts in this thread as there are several merged and I haven't gone back to see what posts I've maybe missed.

Just a note, there's little point in referring to threads by page counts because people can view the forum in different ways - your page 10 might be different than my page 10.

[ELZ1875]

Because some players have obvious talent and you think you can get something from them if you can get them to screw the nut. (Randy Moss and Corey Dillon are two NFL players (Pats) that were loose canons but we still got a couple of good years out them). That's why I wouldn't discount signing a player who has off-the-field issues because some players respond well to second chances.

Like with Miller and stokes?

[Stevie Reid]

Lets hope he can entice some of his targets from down South that will improve us then Stevie

:agree:

[ELZ1875]

Never knew that HibsMax, ta.

[blackpoolhibs]

An experienced quality pro nearing end of his career to help bring younsters through games with his knowledge....A Sauzee type maybe?

Lionel messi on his own couldnt get this bunch of dross winning regularly? We need 5 of the types you mention, 1 would make little difference.

The Ajax way of getting them young and selling them on is the way to go, perhaps supplimented with the odd Sauzee type. Over to you Colin.

[Albion Hibs]

You can say for 100% certainty it wasnt their attitude in their earlier years that made them fail to reach the grade and it wasnt their attitude in any way shape or form in recent years?

Players like all people have attitudes...you have one...I have one. Some of our best players over recent years, the likes of Riordan, Stokes etc are rumoured to have had "bad" attitudes. They are not at the club dues to performace or being sold - a reflection in the later case of how attitude means little.

The reality is if these guys were good enough they would still be at hibs. Perhaps Rod would have put them on a slightly longer deal and sold them with the benefit of their ability being on display.

I have stated many times before, in my opinion what they achieved at under 19's level means nothing. Good for the players, perhaps a confidence boost, but I doubt many of them would chose to be boasting to their mates about scoring against hertz in a 19's league match, over a league match.

These guys did not make the grade, that is not to say they will not go on to do well at another level, I hope they do. But there attitude is not to blame.

[HibsMax]

Hibs are a BIG club in the SPL, the Board said at AGM their ambition was to be in top four every Season....We should expect to be in the top six every season as a minimum imo......

Sure, and that's your opinion as you said. It's a fine line. I agree with you and I think that Hibs should be in the top six, at a minimum, every year but the reality of the situation is that with the exception of the OF, Scottish football is very volatile and because of that, I don't expect we will be in the top six consistently. At least not yet. Perhaps if Hibs can show us some consistency then I will start to have that expectation.

[smurf]

I really am curious to find out how many season tickets have been purchased/renewed, as I think we could be well down on last year, maybe even halved?

I suspect that this is indeed the case. Quite sad as with the current regime that will mean only one thing and that's further reductions to the budget.

This is not a board with a vision or plan to drive up revenues.

It's simply;

A, Get lucky with player sales.
B, Expect sufficient numbers to buy expensive season tickets.

They've ran out of A as we've sold everything off. And they have a problem with B because they haven't used the dividends of A properly.

Ran out of money and ideas it appears to me.

Their only hope is that in CC they appointed the right guy.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Lionel messi on his own couldnt get this bunch of dross winning regularly? We need 5 of the types you mention, 1 would make little difference.

The Ajax way of getting them young and selling them on is the way to go, perhaps supplimented with the odd Sauzee type. Over to you Colin.

A lot of dross has been cleared Gary, so maybe Colin will bring in some experienced heads to help the remaining crop, time will tell:pray:

[silverhibee]

(my opinion)
I think Hibs will find it hard to bring in other players from around Scotland, and I don't mean wages or training facilities, but because our supporters have got a bad reputation for booing players who have lost form and in general getting on players backs at any given time!
And before anybody asks, that info comes from 2 Agents and 4 Coaches I know in the Scottish game :agree:


:agree:

[blackpoolhibs]

A lot of dross has been cleared Gary, so maybe Colin will bring in some experienced heads to help the remaining crop, time will tell:pray:

A lot have been punted,:agree: but there's still more to go imo.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I suspect that this is indeed the case. Quite sad as with the current regime that will mean only one thing and that's further reductions to the budget.

This is not a board with a vision or plan to drive up revenues.

It's simply;

A, Get lucky with player sales.
B, Expect sufficient numbers to buy expensive season tickets.

They've ran out of A as we've sold everything off. And they have a problem with B because they haven't used the dividends of A properly.

Ran out of money and ideas it appears to me.

Their only hope is that in CC they appointed the right guy.

:top marks:agree:

[ELZ1875]

Albion, to say that out of 18-22 youth players all had incredible amounts of application and the right attitude is nonsense.

Im talking about the attitude that when they come into work they want to be first on the pitch, then burst a gut at training, stay back for some extra ball work, go home eat and drink the right things and live their life in a manner that will benefit hibs.
Man U for example, im not saying the same skill level, but applicatoin and lifestyle.

Paul Ince is a great example of this.

[silverhibee]

We are no worse than most other teams.

Yes we are.

What other manager in the SPL do you know that wont play one of his players because of the reaction the player will get from the fans.

[Beefster]

So what you are saying is that i need to have x amounts of posts before you will consider my posts worthy or before i can value my own opinion?

What is your point?

My point was that I don't like being cocky about their contribution until they've actually contributed something.

Clear enough for you?

[Stevie Reid]

I suspect that this is indeed the case. Quite sad as with the current regime that will mean only one thing and that's further reductions to the budget.

This is not a board with a vision or plan to drive up revenues.

It's simply;

A, Get lucky with player sales.
B, Expect sufficient numbers to buy expensive season tickets.

They've ran out of A as we've sold everything off. And they have a problem with B because they haven't used the dividends of A properly.

Ran out of money and ideas it appears to me.

Their only hope is that in CC they appointed the right guy.

Where have we been lucky with player sales? Players sold will have either been bought/signed or brought up through our own youth system. Where does luck come into it?

[silverhibee]

I said about 7 pages ago this could be the most pointless thread ever. its only worth reading from about page 22 roughly from when i became involved :greengrin


Aye, okay Scott. :greengrin

[dangermouse]

Who was the other best performer this season apart from Booth. :confused:

Hanlon

[ELZ1875]

I suspect that this is indeed the case. Quite sad as with the current regime that will mean only one thing and that's further reductions to the budget.

This is not a board with a vision or plan to drive up revenues.

It's simply;

A, Get lucky with player sales.
B, Expect sufficient numbers to buy expensive season tickets.

They've ran out of A as we've sold everything off. And they have a problem with B because they haven't used the dividends of A properly.

Ran out of money and ideas it appears to me.

Their only hope is that in CC they appointed the right guy.

Smurf and Baldy you have made it clear that you both have no vision.
I have asked Baldy already how to achieve his goals of spending money we dont have, body swerved.

So a board who 10 years ago were 17m in debt, who now have a training facility and the a great stadium dont have vision. They do it's called long term planning or planning for the future.

Ajax havent always excelled at producing youth players, they bit the bullet and took the rough. Same as French Football, they were off the scene for almost 20 years prior to 1998, why? taking time to develop youth and trust me Hibernian F.c have plenty of time., more than every member on this board!

Imagine we Booth and Hanlon became players that were both sold for a total of 4m, what else do the board have to spend that money now bar the squad.

[JimBHibees]

I suspect that this is indeed the case. Quite sad as with the current regime that will mean only one thing and that's further reductions to the budget.

This is not a board with a vision or plan to drive up revenues.

It's simply;

A, Get lucky with player sales.
B, Expect sufficient numbers to buy expensive season tickets.

They've ran out of A as we've sold everything off. And they have a problem with B because they haven't used the dividends of A properly.
Ran out of money and ideas it appears to me.

Their only hope is that in CC they appointed the right guy.

New training centre and completing the ground redevelopment sound like smart ways of using the income for the long term benefit of the club.

[Albion Hibs]

Albion, to say that out of 18-22 youth players all had incredible amounts of application and the right attitude is nonsense.

Im talking about the attitude that when they come into work they want to be first on the pitch, then burst a gut at training, stay back for some extra ball work, go home eat and drink the right things and live their life in a manner that will benefit hibs.
Man U for example, im not saying the same skill level, but applicatoin and lifestyle.

Paul Ince is a great example of this.

I never said they did. What I said was it was not their attitude it was there ability. Quite how you would know about their training attitude is perhaps the biggest piece of nonsence. In addition to the certainty you seem to have about how the players at man u apply and live their lives.

You do not know any of these things. It is a joe blogs view to say that if they stay behind and do this that and the next thing....bla bla bla.

[ELZ1875]

My point was that I don't like being cocky about their contribution until they've actually contributed something.

Clear enough for you?

Not really, maybe you should start a thread about how new posters cant be confident or have a joke, maybe turn it into a 'sticky' i think you regulars call it.

As for this thread, ive contributed about 20 odd posts now. that enough sir?

Thats like saying to new hibs signings 'no confidence or joking with other players until youve done something'.

[ELZ1875]

I never said they did. What I said was it was not their attitude it was there ability. Quite how you would know about their training attitude is perhaps the biggest piece of nonsence. In addition to the certainty you seem to have about how the players at man u apply and live their lives.

You do not know any of these things. It is a joe blogs view to say that if they stay behind and do this that and the next thing....bla bla bla.

Thanks for rendering most of your own recent posts as redunant.

Not once have i said its fact, your the one who says it is all ability and absolutely nothing else.

[7Hero]

Just wondering if anybody is aware of how many of the current board of directors were hibs fans prior to there jobs at hibs..

[jdships]

Where have we been lucky with player sales? Players sold will have either been bought/signed or brought up through our own youth system. Where does luck come into it?

Absolutely correct ! :thumbsup:
Thousands of pounds are invested in every youngster that joins the club , many hours of coaching are invested in every young player that joins the club.
Those that are older and have been signed and later transferred
have also had the benefit of large amounts of the clubs resources which enabled then to improve and move to a higher standard
It's called "investment" or "speculate to accumelate " depending how you look at it
Can't see anywhere that luck comes into it
:greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Just wondering if anybody is aware of how many of the current board of directors were hibs fans prior to there jobs at hibs..

No idea and personally dont really care who they supported they are there to do a professional job and that is the most important thing.

[ScottB]

Just wondering if anybody is aware of how many of the current board of directors were hibs fans prior to there jobs at hibs..

Couldn't remotely care less. Vlad style 'I've always been a fan' nonsense is to be avoided.

[smurf]

Where have we been lucky with player sales? Players sold will have either been bought/signed or brought up through our own youth system. Where does luck come into it?

Luck does play a part. If not we would be producing such types consistently.

[Dr Jimmy]

Just wondering if anybody is aware of how many of the current board of directors were hibs fans prior to there jobs at hibs..

Garry O'Hagan (Director & Company Secretary) has been a Hibby all his days and regularly went to games home and away.....FACT (as others would say... :greengrin)

[Stevie Reid]

Luck does play a part. If not we would be producing such types consistently.

That's not luck, that's just what happens with youth players - some make it and most don't. We had scouts/coaching staff in place that got these talents to ER where they blossomed before being sold on for considerable profit, and have made significant investments to try and ensure that we get more of the ones that do make it, and do the same again. The amount of luck involved in the process is minimal.

God forbid we should get rid of this lot and hire an unlucky board.

[Beefster]

Not really, maybe you should start a thread about how new posters cant be confident or have a joke, maybe turn it into a 'sticky' i think you regulars call it.

As for this thread, ive contributed about 20 odd posts now. that enough sir?

Thats like saying to new hibs signings 'no confidence or joking with other players until youve done something'.

No.

No.

No, it's not.

[7Hero]

No idea and personally dont really care who they supported they are there to do a professional job and that is the most important thing.

So you dont know and dont care, thanks for replying though !

be grat if they were doing a professional job though wouldn't it...


Couldn't remotely care less. Vlad style 'I've always been a fan' nonsense is to be avoided.

obviously he's not a fan. on a separate note he has got the priorities on the pitch right..i mean he could run the business and try to get the debt repaid couldn't he while foresaking quality on the park... ??

Garry O'Hagan (Director & Company Secretary) has been a Hibby all his days and regularly went to games home and away.....FACT (as others would say... :greengrin)

Excellent max a reply thanks very much for answering the question.

[dangermouse]

Luck does play a part. If not we would be producing such types consistently.

Reminds me of the retort by a pro golfer (can't remember who may have been Gary Player) who after playing a shot heard someone in the crowd say "That was lucky" to which he replied "You know the more I practice, the luckier I get"

Luck has nothing to do with it.

[JimBHibees]

So you dont know and dont care, thanks for replying though !

be grat if they were doing a professional job though wouldn't it...


Good reply. What does it matter who they supported?

[jdships]

No idea and personally dont really care who they supported they are there to do a professional job and that is the most important thing.

:thumbsup:
Might as well ask " how many players were Hibs supporters before they joined the club ? " !!!!!!!!
:rolleyes:
:flag:

[Captain Trips]

That is the bit that is getting me, what is the state of play?

For me Booth and Hanlon are the first to show us its benefits, nothing to with ability, to me they both look proper dedicated proffesionals, i think that is something EM will bring, a different culture

Going back to this I really fail to agree with any of this, we were discussing the merits of EM and that for me isnt one, the people whom should have been benefitting from culture changes regarding EM are players whom trained there before and after with us, players whom we signed from other clubs whom now have or had EM compared to what they had before. I saw nothing at all in any players that showed me attitudes were anything better than before with some.

It is not a football Academy its to train at, IMO it will change nothing and has changed nothing in terms of attitude, if it was an Academy then yeah attitudes will be moulded, it is the same coaches with same abilty as before.

EM for me is a place to train without anything to distract the players which is good but for me that is all it and any training center is to get fit, learn tactics get some matches in for various levels etc, I am not suggesting you but some people think it is a place to churn out more Browns etc etc simply because it is there, we will get Browns etc the same way we did before by scouting correctly.

Maybe if we spent £2m less on EM and maybe went over to Africa with £500k and opened a small Academy there or Asia and tried to tap into that market for a couple of years we might have had some success also.

[Saorsa]

New training centre and completing the ground redevelopment sound like smart ways of using the income for the long term benefit of the club.And what about the short term? How much potential income has been lost though ever decreasing crowds and failure tae get beyond the 1st round of the cup competitions. How much more will be lost in reduced season ticket sales this season. I don't disagree with everything that has been done, I disagree with the way it has been done with too much emphasis on the infrastructure of the business and not enough on the product on the park. What are this board of financial geniuses going tae do tae now tae offset the losses the club is making now that there is nothing left tae sell? Reduce the playing budget? The only thing left now is the product on the park and that has become so bad less and less people want tae chuck away their hard earned cash on it.

[blackpoolhibs]

And what about the short term? How much potential income has been lost though ever decreasing crowds and failure tae get beyond the 1st round of the cup competitions. How much more will be lost in reduced season ticket sales this season. I don't disagree with everything that has been done, I disagree with the way it has been done with too much emphasis on the infrastructure of the business and not enough on the product on the park. What are this board of financial geniuses going tae do tae now tae offset the losses now that there is nothing left tae sell? Reduce the playing budget? The only thing left now is the product on the park and that has become so bad less and less people want tae chuck away their hard earned cash on it.

4th place was not deemed good enough by a quite vocal percentage of this board last season. If we cant get behind them short term when pushing for europe, can someone tell me what the time limits are for short and long term regarding Hibs?

[Stevie Reid]

4th place was not deemed good enough by a quite vocal percentage of this board last season. If we cant get behind them short term when pushing for europe, can someone tell me what the time limits are for short and long term regarding Hibs?

Very good point.

[ELZ1875]

Going back to this I really fail to agree with any of this, we were discussing the merits of EM and that for me isnt one, the people whom should have been benefitting from culture changes regarding EM are players whom trained there before and after with us, players whom we signed from other clubs whom now have or had EM compared to what they had before. I saw nothing at all in any players that showed me attitudes were anything better than before with some.

It is not a football Academy its to train at, IMO it will change nothing and has changed nothing in terms of attitude, if it was an Academy then yeah attitudes will be moulded, it is the same coaches with same abilty as before.

EM for me is a place to train without anything to distract the players which is good but for me that is all it and any training center is to get fit, learn tactics get some matches in for various levels etc, I am not suggesting you but some people think it is a place to churn out more Browns etc etc simply because it is there, we will get Browns etc the same way we did before by scouting correctly.

Maybe if we spent £2m less on EM and maybe went over to Africa with £500k and opened a small Academy there or Asia and tried to tap into that market for a couple of years we might have had some success also.

A more professional approach to our training and game preparations, thats what i want and i think that will have a good effect on attitudes to training over a number of years, when hopefully results start to pick up due to being able to apply themselves without distarction.

Your right, it aint a youth academy, might be in the future, for now i see it as a bargaining tool in securing players aged 18 and under.

[JimBHibees]

And what about the short term? How much potential income has been lost though ever decreasing crowds and failure tae get beyond the 1st round of the cup competitions. How much more will be lost in reduced season ticket sales this season. I don't disagree with everything that has been done, I disagree with the way it has been done with too much emphasis on the infrastructure of the business and not enough on the product on the park. What are this board of financial geniuses going tae do tae now tae offset the losses the club is making now that there is nothing left tae sell? Reduce the playing budget? The only thing left now is the product on the park and that has become so bad less and less people want tae chuck away their hard earned cash on it.

The buying of players and making them a decent football unit is undoubtedly the task of the manager. Personally think that each manager has been given reasonable resources it is the utilisation of these resources that we have done so poorly for a while now. The argument is no doubt whether the right managers were selected though I dont remember a lot of whingeing about Collins, Mixu, Hughes at the time. Time alone will tell whether CC is the man though personally glad we have recruited from outwith the former Hibs player gene pool. Personally want him to bring his own number 2 which will better allow him to impose his own culture on the team and the club as a whole.

[Captain Trips]

A more professional approach to our training and game preparations, thats what i want and i think that will have a good effect on attitudes to training over a number of years, when hopefully results start to pick up due to being able to apply themselves without distarction.

Your right, it aint a youth academy, might be in the future, for now i see it as a bargaining tool in securing players aged 18 and under.

I see that is what you want and I am the same, we can agree to disagree I think the facility will have little to no effect on the attitudes and professionalism of players now and in future, not questiong it could be a tool for bargaining or a good place without distraction, IMO both elements could have been acheived on a smaller scale but still big enough for Hibs means.

[ELZ1875]

No.

No.

No, it's not.



Your having a go at me because ive not posted enough to have my contributions valued on this message board, yet your last 3 posts have not contributed to this thread at all. Genius

If you keep posting nonsense like your last 3 and not actually contribute anything will you eventually come back down to my level?

Im really interested to learn about your ranking system.......actually, im not really.

You have proven your value to me.

[Kaiser1962]

Who said not important? It is important to have one its about the size so please make sure that you state perhaps you dont understand why some people refuse to see how important a larger training center is as a pose to a smaller one.

The land that was purchased at East Mains is greater than we would require normally as a football club. There was excess land available which was purchased as it gave Hibs exclusive use and control of the development of the whole site.

Farmer envisages that the facility will be available for use by various clubs and community organisations in it's lifetime. Hence the size.

[ScottB]

obviously he's not a fan. on a separate note he has got the priorities on the pitch right..i mean he could run the business and try to get the debt repaid couldn't he while foresaking quality on the park... ??

So firing a manager during the best form they've ever had, hiring a sex offender and routinely forcing the manager to pick and drop who he chooses, while squandering millions on often substandard players is priorities right is it?

Far be it from me to label someone a Yam (and I'm not), but I don't know any Hearts fans who would have such high praise of the mad one.

Hearts are not a blueprint for anyone to copy.

[ELZ1875]

Carlsberg, do you agree with me that attitudes defo have to change?

Neither of us know, thats the beauty of a debate like this.

I seriously think it could be another 2 seasons or so before we really feel the benefit of all the cost cutting, Em, new stand. etc

People are saying it could be 5 to 10 years before people fully recover from the global recession. Bobby Wiiliamson days were prob the tightest after the collapse of the tv deal, then when we were gettin somewhere the banks went into melt down.

Meet you back here in 2 seasons to discuss :greengrin

[jdships]

I see that is what you want and I am the same, we can agree to disagree I think the facility will have little to no effect on the attitudes and professionalism of players now and in future, not questiong it could be a tool for bargaining or a good place without distraction, IMO both elements could have been acheived on a smaller scale but still big enough for Hibs means.

I can assure you there has been a lot of pluses from EM
The two lads I an close to absolutely love the place !
They talk of team " bonding" , making new friends , getting "one to one attention" from the coaches etc .
I don't know if you have ever trained on a public park in the p.....g rain, travelled 30 minutes or more before getting a shower/bath .
I have and it doesn't bear thinking about.:greengrin
EM will pay its way if the right staff man it and boys with ability are being found/signed

:flag:

[Gatecrasher]

If a cinema showed really poor films for months on end stretching to two years ( your time frame ) then people would stop going or at least pick and choose. The cinema couldn't rely on the customers to say "fair do's I saw some great films here in the past".

Why are you comparing Hibs to a cinema?
Who cares what's on at the pictures, I don't have any affiliation to any production company. We are talking about Hibs. A football team who we (are suppose to) support. Almost every football team has good and bad times why can't people accept that's part and parcel of supporting a club? I didn't choose Hibs thinking it was going to be great all the time, who ever did chose the wrong club. Saying that we shouldn't be striving for better things it just doesn't always turn out that way.

[dangermouse]

The land that was purchased at East Mains is greater than we would require normally as a football club. There was excess land available which was purchased as it gave Hibs exclusive use and control of the development of the whole site.

Farmer envisages that the facility will be available for use by various clubs and community organisations in it's lifetime. Hence the size.

I think you are wasting your time with this one. Carlsberg is of the opinion that East Mains is too big for our needs and too much money was spent on it and no number of reasoned arguments will change his/her mind.

Maybe we should all just agree to disagree and move the discussion on. Hopefully a new (marquee :greengrin) signing will be revealed in the next few days and we can discuss if he is "Hibs Class" or his website is up to scratch.

[Captain Trips]

I can assure you there has been a lot of pluses from EM
The two lads I an close to absolutely love the place !
They talk of team " bonding" , making new friends , getting "one to one attention" from the coaches etc .
I don't know if you have ever trained on a public park in the p.....g rain, travelled 30 minutes or more before getting a shower/bath .
I have and it doesn't bear thinking about.:greengrin
EM will pay its way if the right staff man it and boys with ability are being found/signed

:flag:

I dont expect anyone to say its not good etc etc, it is a great place, that is good you know people whom enjoy it and I am sure it is 100x better than park, but I do not think it is what will define anything really on how we play in future.

[HibsMax]

Reminds me of the retort by a pro golfer (can't remember who may have been Gary Player) who after playing a shot heard someone in the crowd say "That was lucky" to which he replied "You know the more I practice, the luckier I get"

Luck has nothing to do with it.

That's a great quote and one I use, sort of, myself. I'm not a good golfer so when I play a shot that does exactly what I want I think to myself, that was lucky. But if that is exactly what I was intending then how can it be luck? LOL. More of a case of getting everything right at once, so perhaps in that respect it's "lucky".

Luck is when opportunity meets preparation. Or maybe it's the other way around.

[Kaiser1962]

So firing a manager during the best form they've ever had, hiring a sex offender and routinely forcing the manager to pick and drop who he chooses, while squandering millions on often substandard players is priorities right is it?

Far be it from me to label someone a Yam (and I'm not), but I don't know any Hearts fans who would have such high praise of the mad one.

Hearts are not a blueprint for anyone to copy.

There is also the small issue of his company *****ing £49.6m over them to get to that position. Makes things a whole lot easier.

[Captain Trips]

I think you are wasting your time with this one. Carlsberg is of the opinion that East Mains is too big for our needs and too much money was spent on it and no number of reasoned arguments will change his/her mind.

Maybe we should all just agree to disagree and move the discussion on. Hopefully a new (marquee :greengrin) signing will be revealed in the next few days and we can discuss if he is "Hibs Class" or his website is up to scratch.

I hope I have picked you up wrong DM but are you suggesting that your pov and people whom agree with you have put up reasoned arguments and becuase my view is different my arguments are not reasoned?

IMO everyone has put in a very solid reason to their views.

[marinello59]

I see that is what you want and I am the same, we can agree to disagree I think the facility will have little to no effect on the attitudes and professionalism of players now and in future, not questiong it could be a tool for bargaining or a good place without distraction, IMO both elements could have been acheived on a smaller scale but still big enough for Hibs means.

OK then we get the point. Which particular part of East Mains do you see as excessive then? Or seeing as you think the required facility is somehow related to the size of the club, which facilities do you think Rangers and Celtic need that we don't?

[sunshine1875]

Garry O'Hagan (Director & Company Secretary) has been a Hibby all his days and regularly went to games home and away.....FACT (as others would say... :greengrin)

:agree: I knew Garry when he had a day-job before he went full-time to Hibs. A passioniate Hibby like the vast majority of us.

[Kaiser1962]

Luck is when opportunity meets preparation. Or maybe it's the other way around.

Abolutely right. I played rugby in the Gala RFC youth systems in the late seventies and into the national leagues in the early eighties. We had a fantastic system that produced player after player. I have to say there were many, many more players who should have made it when compared to those who actually did. Often players with much more ability failed when lesser gifted players, who applied themselves and listened to what they were told, made it to International level.

People took their eye of the ball and look where they are now. Nobody would have thought that possible back then when you had to move from Gala to actually get a game. If we dont keep a tight hold of things they go belly up very quickly.

[Stevie Reid]

I see that is what you want and I am the same, we can agree to disagree I think the facility will have little to no effect on the attitudes and professionalism of players now and in future, not questiong it could be a tool for bargaining or a good place without distraction, IMO both elements could have been acheived on a smaller scale but still big enough for Hibs means.

With respect Carlsberg, I find it easier to accept the decisions made by the people that the club appointed to do the job after a lengthy process, than accept your point of view that because you cannot see anything tangible coming from it after 3 years, that you believe it to be excessive.

When we were going to build the new stand, the club consulted with supporters as we were the ones who were going to be using it. Similarly, the board listened to the right people when planning EM.

[dangermouse]

I hope I have picked you up wrong DM but are you suggesting that your pov and people whom agree with you have put up reasoned arguments and becuase my view is different my arguments are not reasoned?

IMO everyone has put in a very solid reason to their views.

Your arguments are just as reasoned as everyone else's. Apologies if I made it seem different. I just feel the discussion is going round in circles that's all.

No offence intended.

[HibsMax]

I see that is what you want and I am the same, we can agree to disagree I think the facility will have little to no effect on the attitudes and professionalism of players now and in future, not questiong it could be a tool for bargaining or a good place without distraction, IMO both elements could have been acheived on a smaller scale but still big enough for Hibs means.

I agree, the facilities on their own will not change anything. The benefits, in general, as I see them are:
1. good facilities make us an attractive option to prospective players who I assume look at everything, not just the club name.
2. no need to bounce from park to park to train.
3. indoor facilities for winter.

Most people are in agreement that it's a good thing although some disagree on HOW useful it is and HOW much we should have spent but surely that's a debate for another thread as we cannot go back and spend that money any differently. I'm not a thread Nazi and I'm not going to tell people what they can and cannot post but I don't know that a thread discussing the future needs to dwell that much on investments the club made several years ago.

[Captain Trips]

OK then we get the point. Which particular part of East Mains do you see as excessive then? Or seeing as you think the required facility is somehow related to the size of the club, which facilities do you think Rangers and Celtic need that we don't?

I do not care about the OF facilities, I believe we could have had facilities to give us the same results as we will get in future on a smaller scale, I find the amount of pitches excessive, somebody will no doubt put a reasoned point across on why we need that, fair enough I think it is 2 or 3 pitches to big.

[Captain Trips]

With respect Carlsberg, I find it easier to accept the decisions made by the people that the club appointed to do the job after a lengthy process, than accept your point of view that because you cannot see anything tangible coming from it after 3 years, that you believe it to be excessive.

When we were going to build the new stand, the club consulted with supporters as we were the ones who were going to be using it. Similarly, the board listened to the right people when planning EM.

But we all make points I am sure you have done against something a player or manger has done or a board member so I will assume on occasion you may disagree with somebody who's job it is to make said decsion, I am not asking anyone to accept my point of view I happen to disagree with that decision is all.

[marinello59]

I do not care about the OF facilities, I believe we could have had facilities to give us the same results as we will get in future on a smaller scale, I find the amount of pitches excessive, somebody will no doubt put a reasoned point across on why we need that, fair enough I think it is 2 or 3 pitches to big.

How many pitches are there then? And why do you find the number we have there excessive? How much money do you think having less pitches would have saved? I don't know but you must have some figures to hand.

[Captain Trips]

I agree, the facilities on their own will not change anything. The benefits, in general, as I see them are:
1. good facilities make us an attractive option to prospective players who I assume look at everything, not just the club name.
2. no need to bounce from park to park to train.
3. indoor facilities for winter.

Most people are in agreement that it's a good thing although some disagree on HOW useful it is and HOW much we should have spent but surely that's a debate for another thread as we cannot go back and spend that money any differently. I'm not a thread Nazi and I'm not going to tell people what they can and cannot post but I don't know that a thread discussing the future needs to dwell that much on investments the club made several years ago.

I have never questioned the facility for what it is, it is an excellent facility in all departments, it is not good, it is very very good, as I say I think just very good might have been enough. As I say some funds in another direction to make sure we dont lose sight of the football side of things.

This thread is a bout the board and for me I think it was an overspend, most disagree I think it was that coupled with manger appointments and finishing 10th last season some of the fruits are not bearing fruit and apart from managers somebody higher has to now take the hit.

[Captain Trips]

How many pitches are there then? And why do you find the number we have there excessive? How much money do you think having less pitches would have saved? I don't know but you must have some figures to hand.

I have no figures but plots of land the size of football pitches will not be cheap x2 and we have a fair amount of money. I do not need figures to hand to know if we built something smaller it would be cheaper, I would think that to be normal.

[Kaiser1962]

I hope I have picked you up wrong DM but are you suggesting that your pov and people whom agree with you have put up reasoned arguments and becuase my view is different my arguments are not reasoned?

IMO everyone has put in a very solid reason to their views.

I would agree with that.

[Stevie Reid]

But we all make points I am sure you have done against something a player or manger has done or a board member so I will assume on occasion you may disagree with somebody who's job it is to make said decsion, I am not asking anyone to accept my point of view I happen to disagree with that decision is all.

I appreciate that, but to be fair this is not a decision like playing someone out of position, or not offering a player a new contract. These infrastructure decisions have been taken with future generations of Hibs players, managers and supporters in mind.

I fully respect your right to disagree with these decisions though, I just happen to support them.

[HibsMax]

I do not care about the OF facilities, I believe we could have had facilities to give us the same results as we will get in future on a smaller scale, I find the amount of pitches excessive, somebody will no doubt put a reasoned point across on why we need that, fair enough I think it is 2 or 3 pitches to big.

The argument that you are looking for is in post #867. :)

[Captain Trips]

I appreciate that, but to be fair this is not a decision like playing someone out of position, or not offering a player a new contract. These infrastructure decisions have been taken with future generations of Hibs players, managers and supporters in mind.

I fully respect your right to disagree with these decisions though, I just happen to support them.


I think it is irrelevant to it being a player out of position or a manger appointment you cant beat me with the they are put in a position to make these decsions stick then in time or in past you have gone against people who are paid to make decsions also.

I dont just arrive at this point I believe it to be an error, its not a terrible one but it is still imo an error. I fully respect your right on this occasion to go with the club fully.

[Captain Trips]

The argument that you are looking for is in post #867. :)

I see, that doesnt mean though I agree with it :greengrin

[down the slope]

Gentlemen gentlemen , calm doon please, we are in danger of making ourselves a laughing stock over this. Either we will sign good players or our erse will be hanging out next season so why whip ourselves into a sort of frenzy over everything and anything connected to the club.

[HibsMax]

I see, that doesnt mean though I agree with it :greengrin

LOL.

As was mentioned elsewhere the training facilities are an investment in the truest sense of the word, when compared to "investing" in a player. Hibs might have spent big money on East Mains but if it gets used by other organisations then it could actually start to generate revenue, something that not many players can say. The potential is there.

[Captain Trips]

At end of day we all have our views but no matter what we want whats best for club and we think there are differnt ways to go about it, I don't mind being a lone voice in my views I 100% stick to them and accept some great points put forward, at least there hasnt been the personal attacks that occur on a lot of debats that get to this point.

[HibsMax]

Gentlemen gentlemen , calm doon please, we are in danger of making ourselves a laughing stock over this. Either we will sign good players or our erse will be hanging out next season so why whip ourselves into a sort of frenzy over everything and anything connected to the club.

I actually think the debate has been pretty civilised for a change. :)

[HibsMax]

At end of day we all have our views but no matter what we want whats best for club and we think there are differnt ways to go about it, I don't mind being a lone voice in my views I 100% stick to them and accept some great points put forward, at least there hasnt been the personal attacks that occur on a lot of debats that get to this point.

**** you!

[Captain Trips]

I actually think the debate has been pretty civilised for a change. :)

Has it ++++ you complete ++++ing ++++. :greengrin

[Captain Trips]

**** you!

Beat me to it you +++++++++++++++@@@@!!!!!

[Stevie Reid]

I think it is irrelevant to it being a player out of position or a manger appointment you cant beat me with the they are put in a position to make these decsions stick then in time or in past you have gone against people who are paid to make decsions also.

I dont just arrive at this point I believe it to be an error, its not a terrible one but it is still imo an error. I fully respect your right on this occasion to go with the club fully.

You mentioned disagreeing with managers so I gave an example of a managerial decision - a manager playing someone out of position or dropping someone is never going to have implications for a football club for years and years to come, and the decision making process behind such decisions is completely different to planning a training facility.

I don't wish to draw this out any further, but I don't believe that I am being hypocrtical. As I said, I respect your opninion, despite disagreeing with it, and appreciate that there is reasoning behind it.

[ELZ1875]

Gentlemen gentlemen , calm doon please, we are in danger of making ourselves a laughing stock over this. Either we will sign good players or our erse will be hanging out next season so why whip ourselves into a sort of frenzy over everything and anything connected to the club.

Ive not been, ive kept all my frenziedness for this one thread!

Beefster tried to start on me for not being a regular, but he quickly vanished.

[blackpoolhibs]

I have no figures but plots of land the size of football pitches will not be cheap x2 and we have a fair amount of money. I do not need figures to hand to know if we built something smaller it would be cheaper, I would think that to be normal.

That all depends where you buy the land surely? We might have bought a piece of land in Edinburgh, a smaller piece of land. Although i'd guess we'd have to pay a lot more than we did for the larger bit in east mains?

Where are these smaller bits of land, land thats cheaper than east mains but a bit smaller?

[jdships]

I dont expect anyone to say its not good etc etc, it is a great place, that is good you know people whom enjoy it and I am sure it is 100x better than park, but I do not think it is what will define anything really on how we play in future.

As a stand alone entity , I totally agree with you .
But as part of the total coaching,training, playing equation why shouldn't it lead to an overall improvement in the clubs performances/future ?
Surely even you must admit it was a positive and ambitious step to take :greengrin:wink:
:flag:

[Albion Hibs]

I have no figures but plots of land the size of football pitches will not be cheap x2 and we have a fair amount of money. I do not need figures to hand to know if we built something smaller it would be cheaper, I would think that to be normal.

I would not think that is necessarily true. There will be an economy of scale in there, whereby when it becomes so small it is not as effeciant and therefore like for like ends up costing more. In addition I would think what the land is, or could be would also have a bearing on cost i.e. a small bit of land in Edinburgh which could be housing will be far more expensive than agricultrual land in east lothian.

I would think the rational behind having a few pitches is that it allows them to vary when they use them i.e. rather than one pitch getting used for 2-4 hours a day six days a week, having two pitches will ensure it is only used 2-4 hours a day three times a week. Less wear and tear, repairing costs and risk of injury.

[Kaiser1962]

As a stand alone entity , I totally agree with you .
But as part of the total coaching,training, playing equation why shouldn't it lead to an overall improvement in the clubs performances/future ?
Surely even you must admit it was a positive and ambitious step to take


A lot of thought has gone into EM. There are training pitches laid out to mirror the pitch at ER exactly. All lines, boxes, are in exact cardinal direction to ER.

[Captain Trips]

That all depends where you buy the land surely? We might have bought a piece of land in Edinburgh, a smaller piece of land. Although i'd guess we'd have to pay a lot more than we did for the larger bit in east mains?

Where are these smaller bits of land, land thats cheaper than east mains but a bit smaller?


I dont know BH, there are lots of things in life we dont agree with but also do not have an answer too either. I dont have access to a Delorean to see what was available at time club was looking.

[Captain Trips]

I would not think that is necessarily true. There will be an economy of scale in there, whereby when it becomes so small it is not as effeciant and therefore like for like ends up costing more. In addition I would think what the land is, or could be would also have a bearing on cost i.e. a small bit of land in Edinburgh which could be housing will be far more expensive than agricultrual land in east lothian.

I would think the rational behind having a few pitches is that it allows them to vary when they use them i.e. rather than one pitch getting used for 2-4 hours a day six days a week, having two pitches will ensure it is only used 2-4 hours a day three times a week. Less wear and tear, repairing costs and risk of injury.

I agree on why you need more pitches but to go from a public park to need in excess of 6 pitches is a bit of a leap.

[Beefster]

Ive not been, ive kept all my frenziedness for this one thread!

Beefster tried to start on me for not being a regular, but he quickly vanished.

I try to only debate with folk who don't get hysterical like a nine year old girl meeting JLS for the first time.

I still think you're an arrogant cucumber though, if it's any consolation.

[ELZ1875]

Carlsberg, do you agree that there has to be a major change in attitude at the club?

I dont think we were lacking in ability for the last 6 months, i think it was all attitude.

[Captain Trips]

If Hibs had came out and spent £3m on an indoor facilty and 2 full size outdoor pitches I do not think that people would have been on saying it is not big enough in honesty I think many would be just as delighted. And no I wouldnt have came on and said we need 1 pitch and a jacuzzi :greengrin

[Captain Trips]

Carlsberg, do you agree that there has to be a major change in attitude at the club?

I dont think we were lacking in ability for the last 6 months, i think it was all attitude.

Of course but for me that has nothing to do with EM, unfortunatly the younger players will get influenced by players on TV and the ones they work with it is the senior players who's attitude concerns me a lot more.

Look at EM, we have players whom played at Hibs before it and after it was built and it did nothing for them in terms of attitude. We have signed guys from clubs who trained in parks and when they come to HIbs attitude and commitment lacking. Unfortunatly we lacked attitude and ability and have done for a long time, this is players and managers responsabilty to sort.

[ELZ1875]

I try to only debate with folk who don't get hysterical like a nine year old girl meeting JLS for the first time.

I still think you're an arrogant cucumber though, if it's any consolation.

Are arrogance and hysteria the same thing? i have not once became hysterical and so far you have only accused me of being an arrogant cucumber. So what is the point about hysterical young girls about?

Or are you trying to be funny cause you actually have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

Funny how you ignore my posts asking you questions about what makes someone a worthwhile contributer to the site.

Now you have resorted to personal abuse when im pretty sure most folk seen it for what it was, a joke.

If you dont wanna debate hibs with me do one and dont reply to this unless it is hibs related. Come back with a smart arse comment and youll prove im right and you have nothing to contribute to this thread.

[ELZ1875]

As i said earlier carlsberg, i think it'll take another 2 seasons for things to really show.

Agree to disagree and ill see you on this thread in 2 years time :greengrin

[Captain Trips]

As i said earlier carlsberg, i think it'll take another 2 seasons for things to really show.

Agree to disagree and ill see you on this thread in 2 years time :greengrin


I wont put a timescale on attitudes that will ebb and flow depending who is in charge. We will as ever find another great player or two again maybe next year maybe in 10.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Where are these smaller bits of land, land thats cheaper than east mains but a bit smaller?

Midlothian? It's usually a bit cheaper than East Lothian. doesn't STF have some land at Straiton he could've sold to us?...



I still think you're an arrogant cucumber though, if it's any consolation.

:hilarious :aok:

[Albion Hibs]

I agree on why you need more pitches but to go from a public park to need in excess of 6 pitches is a bit of a leap.


We all know hibs and RP. there is no way we would have 6 pitches if we only needed 5. Whilst I have been to east mains a few times I dont know how pitches are used and how many times a day by various age groups they are used.

I think it was the right investment to make. As a club and a league we often criticise how amateur and far behind we are other leagues, yet it seems that we are now criticising our own club for trying to do things right by having a go at the scale and necessity of east mains.

[HibsMax]

I agree on why you need more pitches but to go from a public park to need in excess of 6 pitches is a bit of a leap.


We all know hibs and RP. there is no way we would have 6 pitches if we only needed 5. Whilst I have been to east mains a few times I dont know how pitches are used and how many times a day by various age groups they are used.

I think it was the right investment to make. As a club and a league we often criticise how amateur and far behind we are other leagues, yet it seems that we are now criticising our own club for trying to do things right by having a go at the scale and necessity of east mains.

It probably made more financial sense to do everything at once rather than a little here and a little there. Maybe we got a special bulk deal that meant the difference between 5 pitches and 6 pitches was negligible? I also like the earlier-mentioned notion of pitch rotation so that we don't end up with threadbare pitches to train on.

It's really difficult to debate this point thoroughly and accurately without having a full breakdown of the overall expense and competing quotes (if there were any) and incentives.

What we need is a spy to get down there when Hibs are training (pre-season and in-season) and see how much the facilities are being used. Maybe pitch a tent there so we can see how the facilities are being used when Hibs aren't training.

EDIT : and someone ought to check to see what brand of motor oil and tyres we're using on the team bus, could be some savings to be made there as well. :wink:

[Kaiser1962]

Midlothian? It's usually a bit cheaper than East Lothian. doesn't STF have some land at Straiton he could've sold to us?...


I think Straiton may have been cheaper 20 years ago DH.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I think Straiton may have been cheaper 20 years ago DH.

Not sure, but I think on a like for like basis Midlothian (Bonnyrigg, Loanhead, Rosewell etc) is cheaper than East Lothian.

[Kaiser1962]

Not sure, but I think on a like for like basis Midlothian (Bonnyrigg, Loanhead, Rosewell etc) is cheaper than East Lothian.

Farmer and Harrison own land all over the place through Morston, amongst others. I think Straiton has been earmarked for more profitable things than a training ground:greengrin

The land became available at EM and Farmer bought it for whatever reason, and we now have a training centre there.

His company his rules.

[Captain Trips]

We all know hibs and RP. there is no way we would have 6 pitches if we only needed 5. Whilst I have been to east mains a few times I dont know how pitches are used and how many times a day by various age groups they are used.

I think it was the right investment to make. As a club and a league we often criticise how amateur and far behind we are other leagues, yet it seems that we are now criticising our own club for trying to do things right by having a go at the scale and necessity of east mains.

Do not recall having a go at that, the scale yes. As I said would everyone whom thinks EM is fine as it is complained as much as me going the other way if it had been a £3m project on a smaller scale?

And people criticise our own club for trying to do things right on appointing managers, people criticise our own club for trying to do things right by signing players. I will criticise the club on the money spent on this project. Most people on here have criticised the club on one thing or another a thing they are doing for what they deem best for club.

[Kaiser1962]

Do not recall having a go at that, the scale yes. As I said would everyone whom thinks EM is fine as it is complained as much as me going the other way if it had been a £3m project on a smaller scale?

And people criticise our own club for trying to do things right on appointing managers, people criticise our own club for trying to do things right by signing players. I will criticise the club on the money spent on this project. Most people on here have criticised the club on one thing or another a thing they are doing for what they deem best for club.

I think you are most probably right overall Carlsberg and EM happened the way it did due more to circumstance and opportunity rather than as a result of a cunning plan. While we were looking for a suitable location that we could develop it was never intended to be on the scale that EM is, or could yet be. The land became available, was looked at, purchased and developed.

The good news is that there is further scope to enlarge the facility! :greengrin

[Captain Trips]

I think you are most probably right overall Carlsberg and EM happened the way it did due more to circumstance and opportunity rather than as a result of a cunning plan. While we were looking for a suitable location that we could develop it was never intended to be on the scale that EM is, or could yet be. The land became available, was looked at, purchased and developed.

The good news is that there is further scope to enlarge the facility! :greengrin

That is where the problem lies with the board, investing hard cash in such things when at that time the team may have needed some more money. It just seems when we have money there are other things apart from the team that get the majority if not all the money. I accept that land is a good investment but buying it because it was available is not right IMO. There is a football side to be run and unfortunatly signing players can run at a loss something I think the board do not like.

We are as well to have a board of Kirstie Allsopp, Phil Spencer, Sarah Beeny and Tommy Walsh. They should have bought less land fit for the purpose and reduced the debts with the rest instead of buying up things we will not see the benefit of unless sold on, Hibs being great in 10, 20 years is great, there is a duty to the now we are all paying top dollar now.

[Beefster]

Farmer and Harrison own land all over the place through Morston, amongst others. I think Straiton has been earmarked for more profitable things than a training ground:greengrin

The land became available at EM and Farmer bought it for whatever reason, and we now have a training centre there.

His company his rules.

Didn't Hibs buy it?

[dangermouse]

maybe this (http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20110413/vaz-te-kicks-off-new-project_2262950_2337794) is why it's so big

[Captain Trips]

maybe this (http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20110413/vaz-te-kicks-off-new-project_2262950_2337794) is why it's so big

Maybe, still doesnt IMO justify it, I think we could still host plenty of events of that ilk in something a lot smaller.

[Kaiser1962]

Didn't Hibs buy it?

Perhaps I worded it poorly but I would say that Farmer owns Hibs lock and stock.

EM was to a large degree driven by Farmer as it fits with his vison of community in that the facility has the scope to be available to other clubs and community type projects.

[Captain Trips]

Perhaps I worded it poorly but I would say that Farmer owns Hibs lock and stock.

EM was to a large degree driven by Farmer as it fits with his vison of community in that the facility has the scope to be available to other clubs and community type projects.

I think for me that is what I do not like, there just seems to be to much focus on trying to get involved with expensive deals away from pitch, these deals could mean a lot or nothing for Hibs in years to come. I think if they want to do that it should be done with money from other property deals done, players being sold should be looked at with a view of getting matters right on park first and foremost.

Nobody can guarantee a future income from a land deal or from a players deal, I do not think it was correct to use up as much money as we did on EM while we owed a lot of money to other party, a better split would still have given us a great facility and reduced our debts a good bit giving managers an even better chance, we might have gone through less managers who knows.

[blackpoolhibs]

We can argue all day on whether the new stand cost too much, or east mains is too big, but the hard facts that nobody can argue about is we get out performed by clubs spending way less than us.

The original question was for the board to invest or leave. I'd say the real questions that needs answered is, why do we keep under performing? And how many more chances do this board get if the current manager is another dummy?

[Saorsa]

We can argue all day on whether the new stand cost too much, or east mains is too big, but the hard facts that nobody can argue about is we get out performed by clubs spending way less than us.

The original question was for the board to invest or leave. I'd say the real questions that needs answered is, why do we keep under performing? And how many more chances do this board get if the current manager is another dummy?could dummy be equated with cheap?

[Captain Trips]

We can argue all day on whether the new stand cost too much, or east mains is too big, but the hard facts that nobody can argue about is we get out performed by clubs spending way less than us.

The original question was for the board to invest or leave. I'd say the real questions that needs answered is, why do we keep under performing? And how many more chances do this board get if the current manager is another dummy?

Do we for a fact spend 4th most on wages, I assume we do BH. I would say we have been beaten into place by teams whom have spent less and spend less than us.

So has the manager spent to much on players when he might have got better ones for less?

Have the last Managers failed to spot a good player and let potential ones pass by?

I think the managers have bought badly and failed to rectify errors made, even if they had more money than other teams eveidently it may not have been enough, IMO we should have invested in a manager with papers whom has built teams up and been in game for a while and that manager should have been paid a wage befitting that responsability it may be expensive but the last few years will show how important a good manager is. Of course it might of failed but I for one then would have backed that sort of appointment 100%.

I do not think CC is right for what is required at ER just now.

We cant keep giving the board credit for infrastucture as good as it may be they have another duty on the park and IMO that has been failing for a long time, they are going to have to fall on their sword at some point if this continues, they cannot rest on a traing facility and a stand.

[MyJo]

Maybe im missing something in the whole "EM is too big debate" but when your buying a property you dont go and view it and say, location is fine, price is right and its available but its a bit too big for what we need fancy demolishing a couple of the bedrooms and we'll pay you a bit less for it?

EM was an existing property with the buildings that were already there and the land around it sold as a package. Had a suitable plot of land that wasn't quite as big presented itself there is no doubt the club would have made do with what they could fit on it but the benefit of EM is the size of the place as well as the existing buildings that will have been cheaper in converting than building a new structure on a undeveloped piece of smaller land elsewhere.

Im also certain that the original plans for EM didnt have 5 full size pitches or whatever there is there, it had dedicated training areas for goalkeepers and 7-a-side pitches etc with only a couple of full size ones but this was changed on the suggestion of the manager at the time (Collins possibly?) when the pitches were being laid and developed.

[Albion Hibs]

The fact of the matter is there is not likely to be anyone on here qualified to make a decision as to how big the training centre needs to be other than those designing it/ qualified to design it or the ones briefing them - all of whom will be better placed to decide these things.

The fact of the matter is we have an asset which will in time begin producing something for the future, this has to be the case or no other club in the world would have one.

We seem to be under the impression that it is still costing us, do we know this for sure. I would assume that prior to EM we had to pay for indoor facilities, gyms during colder months and out door facilities during other months.

I think the board have done the right thing investing in the centre. It is silly, IMO, to say it would have been better invested on the pitch, as you never know how that is going to turn out and in any event in three/four years that investment is gone. We have seen that our better players come from decent youth and that is where most of our money / profit is made.

Changing direction slightly I am not to sure how season ticket sales are going, but based on some of the comments towards the end of last season, perhaps it is some of the fans that need to invest or leave.

[Captain Trips]

Maybe im missing something in the whole "EM is too big debate" but when your buying a property you dont go and view it and say, location is fine, price is right and its available but its a bit too big for what we need fancy demolishing a couple of the bedrooms and we'll pay you a bit less for it?

EM was an existing property with the buildings that were already there and the land around it sold as a package. Had a suitable plot of land that wasn't quite as big presented itself there is no doubt the club would have made do with what they could fit on it but the benefit of EM is the size of the place as well as the existing buildings that will have been cheaper in converting than building a new structure on a undeveloped piece of smaller land elsewhere.

Im also certain that the original plans for EM didnt have 5 full size pitches or whatever there is there, it had dedicated training areas for goalkeepers and 7-a-side pitches etc with only a couple of full size ones but this was changed on the suggestion of the manager at the time (Collins possibly?) when the pitches were being laid and developed.

None of us know what else was available back them I assume so we cannot say for sure what would be chaepaer and I accept that, I will surmise it could have been done for less in another location and that cannot be proved either way. Plans perhaps altered by a manager no longer at the club to see it work, we must always be carfeful as in 10yrs or 20 yrs time a different regime might feel differently about all our facilities.

[Albion Hibs]

None of us know what else was available back them I assume so we cannot say for sure what would be chaepaer and I accept that, I will surmise it could have been done for less in another location and that cannot be proved either way. Now changed plans by a manager no longer at the club, we must always be carfeful as in 10yrs or 20 yrs time a different regime might feel differently about all our facilities.

Collins may or may not have made a change to the design, but I dont think there is any manager in the world that will want to change the principle of having a training centre.

[Kaiser1962]

Do we for a fact spend 4th most on wages, I assume we do BH. I would say we have been beaten into place by teams whom have spent less and spend less than us.

We have the 5th largest wage bill. £1m less than Aberdeen. Teams that did finish above us last season normally dont. See HibsMax analysis on other threads.


So has the manager spent to much on players when he might have got better ones for less?

Have the last Managers failed to spot a good player and let potential ones pass by?

I think hindsight would suggest that this is correct although it's not an exact science. It would be great if it went to plan but it dosent.



I do not think CC is right for what is required at ER just now.

May or may not be. If you were going to change manager who would you go for?
I would give CC every opportunity.



We cant keep giving the board credit for infrastucture as good as it may be they have another duty on the park and IMO that has been failing for a long time, they are going to have to fall on their sword at some point if this continues, they cannot rest on a traing facility and a stand.

Their primary duty, to me at least, is to ensure the survival of the Football Club.
By falling "on their sword" who do you propose replaces them?

We are owned by STF and it is not a democracy. If he feels the board should go he will replace them. Its his money and therefore his ball.

[judas]

This is what I've heard:

1. Calderwood offered his resignation twice when we were going through our long winless streak last season.
2. Calderwood is currently unhappy and demotivated at Hibs.
3. Calderwood has not bought a house up here.
4. Calderwood's family still reside in England.

The only flaw on the record of my source - is that he once told me that Hibs had made an offer for Robbo and that he would be joining the club. In fact our offer -publicised the next day was £350k - an offer that was ridiculed at the time by Mercenary (he was valued around £1m at the time).

I am simply putting out for discussion what I have heard - so no accusations please.

[ScottB]

While all that seems believable, why wouldn't the Board accept his resignation?

They know as well as anyone the job in hand this summer and next season, why would they leave a guy who didn't want the job in charge? If he resigned it's not like they'd be forking out to get rid of him either.

[Beefster]

I don't believe it. We keep hearing about how you cannot keep unhappy players so I don't believe that the Board would keep an unhappy manager.

[Wembley67]

Another 10 pages of total ***** about to be posted then....

[SlickShoes]

Sounds like a list of generic complaints from one of my players on Football Manager 2011

[Captain Trips]

The fact of the matter is there is not likely to be anyone on here qualified to make a decision as to how big the training centre needs to be other than those designing it/ qualified to design it or the ones briefing them - all of whom will be better placed to decide these things.

The fact of the matter is we have an asset which will in time begin producing something for the future, this has to be the case or no other club in the world would have one.

We seem to be under the impression that it is still costing us, do we know this for sure. I would assume that prior to EM we had to pay for indoor facilities, gyms during colder months and out door facilities during other months.

I think the board have done the right thing investing in the centre. It is silly, IMO, to say it would have been better invested on the pitch, as you never know how that is going to turn out and in any event in three/four years that investment is gone. We have seen that our better players come from decent youth and that is where most of our money / profit is made.

Changing direction slightly I am not to sure how season ticket sales are going, but based on some of the comments towards the end of last season, perhaps it is some of the fans that need to invest or leave.

That is dangerous for a club of ours to suggest fans do not go, I make decisions to go based on money at time and of course what the team is like, it has never been once suggested by me that investing in a facility is not good and nor did I say throw money at team but people will predict an outcome based on their pov, you have decided that the money on players didnt work.

If we spent £3m on EM and £2m on reducing debt therefore helping team that we signed some good players whom we got good performances from but sold at profit further reducing debt. Decent youth is not a product of EM or a public park, decent youth is all in the scouting, we could even have invested in that area big time also.

[Kaiser1962]

I don't believe it. We keep hearing about how you cannot keep happy players so I don't believe that the Board would keep an unhappy manager.

:agree:

If he wanted to quit he would quit.

[HFC 0-7]

While all that seems believable, why wouldn't the Board accept his resignation?

They know as well as anyone the job in hand this summer and next season, why would they leave a guy who didn't want the job in charge? If he resigned it's not like they'd be forking out to get rid of him either.

I had heard around the time of the first rumour from a friend who works in the press that during a meeting with Petrie, Calderwood accepted that results were not good enough and that if Petrie was unhappy with him he would hand in his resignation as he wouldnt want to be at a club where the chairman didnt trust him and could be looking to show him the door. Basically Calderwood apparently didnt want to be forced out the door by poor budgets in transfer windows etc, so put the cards on the table and said if you dont want me here I will resign. Petrie obviously never asked for the resignation.

[dangermouse]

Do we for a fact spend 4th most on wages, I assume we do BH. I would say we have been beaten into place by teams whom have spent less and spend less than us.

So has the manager spent to much on players when he might have got better ones for less?

Have the last Managers failed to spot a good player and let potential ones pass by?

I think the managers have bought badly and failed to rectify errors made, even if they had more money than other teams eveidently it may not have been enough, IMO we should have invested in a manager with papers whom has built teams up and been in game for a while and that manager should have been paid a wage befitting that responsability it may be expensive but the last few years will show how important a good manager is. Of course it might of failed but I for one then would have backed that sort of appointment 100%.

I do not think CC is right for what is required at ER just now.

We cant keep giving the board credit for infrastucture as good as it may be they have another duty on the park and IMO that has been failing for a long time, they are going to have to fall on their sword at some point if this continues, they cannot rest on a traing facility and a stand.

Who would you replace him with?

[sleeping giant]

I had heard around the time of the first rumour from a friend who works in the press that during a meeting with Petrie, Calderwood accepted that results were not good enough and that if Petrie was unhappy with him he would hand in his resignation as he wouldnt want to be at a club where the chairman didnt trust him and could be looking to show him the door. Basically Calderwood apparently didnt want to be forced out the door by poor budgets in transfer windows etc, so put the cards on the table and said if you dont want me here I will resign. Petrie obviously never asked for the resignation.

:not worth

Loving it

[Sir David Gray]

I have absolutely no idea if Calderwood offered his resignation last season (personally, I doubt it) however, in January, the Scotsman did an extensive interview with him where it stated that after each match, he drives down to Northampton to stay the night at the house which he still owns and then on the Sunday, he'll travel down to London to his ex-wife's house to spend time with his son.

With that in mind, I'd suggest that points 3 and 4 are most probably correct and points 1 and 2 are just rumours which go with the territory of being a manager of a team which is struggling.

[blackpoolhibs]

I had heard around the time of the first rumour from a friend who works in the press that during a meeting with Petrie, Calderwood accepted that results were not good enough and that if Petrie was unhappy with him he would hand in his resignation as he wouldnt want to be at a club where the chairman didnt trust him and could be looking to show him the door. Basically Calderwood apparently didnt want to be forced out the door by poor budgets in transfer windows etc, so put the cards on the table and said if you dont want me here I will resign.

Perhaps it went like this, Rod my results are crap. I thought i could do a lot better with this lot than i have. I mean Yogi managed to get most of this bunch to 4th.

I still believe i can get this club right, i still believe we together with the budgets you quoted will turn this club round.

Do you still back me, if so i am the man?

He's still here, so i assume we know Rods answer?

[Captain Trips]

We have the 5th largest wage bill. £1m less than Aberdeen. Teams that did finish above us last season normally dont. See HibsMax analysis on other threads.



I think hindsight would suggest that this is correct although it's not an exact science. It would be great if it went to plan but it dosent.




May or may not be. If you were going to change manager who would you go for?
I would give CC every opportunity.




Their primary duty, to me at least, is to ensure the survival of the Football Club.
By falling "on their sword" who do you propose replaces them?

We are owned by STF and it is not a democracy. If he feels the board should go he will replace them. Its his money and therefore his ball.


I do not agree that should be done as part of normal service, that is a given for any business to make sure it survives as part of that duty they have lots of other things to do you are staing that as if the club is going to go out of business and that is their role to prevent it. That premise goes for every single company of course it has to survive and if not run properly every business will die. They are in charge of a dynamic business with variuos facets IMO they are not doing the footballing side of the business justice.

I do not think we are in a position on focusing on just surving I think we can look beyond that and onto the park.

[Albion Hibs]

That is dangerous for a club of ours to suggest fans do not go, I make decisions to go based on money at time and of course what the team is like, it has never been once suggested by me that investing in a facility is not good and nor did I say throw money at team but people will predict an outcome based on their pov, you have decided that the money on players didnt work.

If we spent £3m on EM and £2m on reducing debt therefore helping team that we signed some good players whom we got good performances from but sold at profit further reducing debt. Decent youth is not a product of EM or a public park, decent youth is all in the scouting, we could even have invested in that area big time also.

Assumption that players purchases will work. Not least forgetting the fact that selling one good player pays for the whole thing i.e. Brown for £4m.

Your arguement is the building would be circa 50% of the size and we would have 3 less pitches - I dont think there is anyway that it is overdeveloped to that extent (I dont think it is at all in fact) therefore such a reduction would surely mean we have expended £3m on something which is not up to standard or fit for purpose, while at the same time at best getting good reasonable players on contracts which if done at the time the training centre was opened would all almost be away by now.

Your view IMO equals a bad investment for Hibs, and I would not be happy if that is how they went about spending our money.

[Captain Trips]

Who would you replace him with?

I do not know.

[silverhibee]

This is what I've heard:

1. Calderwood offered his resignation twice when we were going through our long winless streak last season.
2. Calderwood is currently unhappy and demotivated at Hibs.
3. Calderwood has not bought a house up here.
4. Calderwood's family still reside in England.

The only flaw on the record of my source - is that he once told me that Hibs had made an offer for Robbo and that he would be joining the club. In fact our offer -publicised the next day was £350k - an offer that was ridiculed at the time by Mercenary (he was valued around £1m at the time).

I am simply putting out for discussion what I have heard - so no accusations please.


1. If true the board would have excepted his resignation the second time round if they had talked him out doing it the first time.
2. Find that very hard to believe if i am being honest.
3. Yes true, but he does have a rented property here in Edinburgh.
4. A lot of football people dont like uprooting there family and moving them all over the place, so nothing new there then.

Hope that helps with what you have been told. :aok:


:cgwa :flag: :cgwa

[Captain Trips]

Assumption that players purchases will work. Not least forgetting the fact that selling one good player pays for the whole thing i.e. Brown for £4m.

Your arguement is the building would be circa 50% of the size and we would have 3 less pitches - I dont think there is anyway that it is overdeveloped to that extent (I dont think it is at all in fact) therefore such a reduction would surely mean we have expended £3m on something which is not up to standard or fit for purpose, while at the same time at best getting good reasonable players on contracts which if done at the time the training centre was opened would all almost be away by now.

Your view IMO equals a bad investment for Hibs, and I would not be happy if that is how they went about spending our money.

Again Albion that is your opinion that it is not fit for purpose at that price so maybe something 50% of the size was £2m or £3m, those players might well be away now but they might not you are making points as I say to suit your view I can easily say:

We spent £3m on a state of the art facility and manged to put £3m into the debt and some into the team we have reduced our outgoings due to paying off some of the debt, we managed to secure 2 quality players and due to finishing high we got in another 1 of which helped us to our 3rd succesive 4th finish, one of our signings was so impressive we got £4m for him due to our strong bargaining position with our reduced debt another euro campiagn looms.

There all hypothetical but I can say that to suggest that could have happend to suit my pov, we can only both surmise what happens when you look at things hypothetically.

[Albion Hibs]

Again Albion that is your opinion that it is not fit for purpose at that price so maybe something 50% of the size was £2m or £3m, those players might well be away now but they might not you are making points as I say to suit your view I can easily say:

We spent £3m on a state of the art facility and manged to put £3m into the debt and some into the team we have reduced our outgoings due to paying off some of the debt, we managed to secure 2 quality players and due to finishing high we got in another 1 of which helped us to our 3rd succesive 4th finish, one of our signings was so impressive we got £4m for him due to our strong bargaining position with our reduced debt another euro campiagn looms.

There all hypothetical but I can say that to suggest that could have happend to suit my pov, we can only both surmise what happens when you look at things hypothetically.

it is true that it is totally down to opinion and I respect that. I would say that your view is based on a lot of if, buts and maybes. My view is fact, as we would be left with a complete training facility that meets the needs of the club, as has happened.

[JimBHibees]

This is what I've heard:

1. Calderwood offered his resignation twice when we were going through our long winless streak last season.
2. Calderwood is currently unhappy and demotivated at Hibs.
3. Calderwood has not bought a house up here.
4. Calderwood's family still reside in England.

The only flaw on the record of my source - is that he once told me that Hibs had made an offer for Robbo and that he would be joining the club. In fact our offer -publicised the next day was £350k - an offer that was ridiculed at the time by Mercenary (he was valued around £1m at the time).

I am simply putting out for discussion what I have heard - so no accusations please.

Calderwood clearly denied this previously.

[Captain Trips]

it is true that it is totally down to opinion and I respect that. I would say that your view is based on a lot of if, buts and maybes. My view is fact, as we would be left with a complete training facility that meets the needs of the club, as has happened.

It does meet the needs I do not disagree but if buts and maybes are also required in an argument against my view. End of the day it is built the money is gone, the thread is about the board leaving or staying based on team investment, my views are money has been overspent in areas I feel it was not required to be such high cost that has brought my EM views to the fore. The board have done a lot of good things but the face of the club will be the football and imo that is a bit of a mess.

They have had years to get the team and management right and this has not occured which gives me great reservations on their ability to run the footballing side of the club properly.

[Captain Trips]

it is true that it is totally down to opinion and I respect that. I would say that your view is based on a lot of if, buts and maybes. My view is fact, as we would be left with a complete training facility that meets the needs of the club, as has happened.

Oh we won the Scottish cup also in my scenario thanks to a last minute goal from a £250k signing we bought with the EM savings :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Perhaps it went like this, Rod my results are crap. I thought i could do a lot better with this lot than i have.

I mean Yogi managed to get most of this bunch to 4th though I am struggling to sort out the absolute shambles that was the team when he left
I still believe i can get this club right, i still believe we together with the budgets you quoted will turn this club round.

Do you still back me, if so i am the man?

He's still here, so i assume we know Rods answer?

More like it. :greengrin

[Albion Hibs]

Oh we won the Scottish cup also in my scenario thanks to a last minute goal from a £250k signing we bought with the EM savings :greengrin

That is perhaps the only if but and maybe I would be willing to change all of my views for......on everything in life, not just the training centre!

But in fairness, it has to be your biggest one, more chance of one of your signings going to liverpool for 15m and Andy Carroll coming the other way!

[JimBHibees]

1. If true the board would have excepted his resignation the second time round if they had talked him out doing it the first time.
2. Find that very hard to believe if i am being honest.
3. Yes true, but he does have a rented property here in Edinburgh.
4. A lot of football people dont like uprooting there family and moving them all over the place, so nothing new there then.

Hope that helps with what you have been told. :aok:


:cgwa :flag: :cgwa

Totally agree.

As regards 4. think the kid stays with CC's ex-wife in London so I dont think he would have had the choice to uproot.

[dangermouse]

Who would you replace him with?


I do not know.

Then why bother replacing him then? I, like many others, was wholly disappointed with last season and our final position. However, I think CC should be given the opportunity to rebuild the team. He has brought in some decent players, especially Thornhill, due to his contacts down South and may surprise us again in the transfer window.

The continual chopping and changing of managers does not help to build a team. Team building goes through several stages (Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing and to an extent Mourning). To change the manager again would just take us back to the beginning with no prospect of reaching the Performing stage any time soon.

[HFC 0-7]

Perhaps it went like this, Rod my results are crap. I thought i could do a lot better with this lot than i have. I mean Yogi managed to get most of this bunch to 4th.

I still believe i can get this club right, i still believe we together with the budgets you quoted will turn this club round.

Do you still back me, if so i am the man?

He's still here, so i assume we know Rods answer?

Thats probably how it went but as my source works in the press and media, thats why my version sounds a bit more dramatic.

[Captain Trips]

Then why bother replacing him then? I, like many others, was wholly disappointed with last season and our final position. However, I think CC should be given the opportunity to rebuild the team. He has brought in some decent players, especially Thornhill, due to his contacts down South and may surprise us again in the transfer window.

The continual chopping and changing of managers does not help to build a team. Team building goes through several stages (Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing and to an extent Mourning). To change the manager again would just take us back to the beginning with no prospect of reaching the Performing stage any time soon.

DM just because I dont have a direct replacement doesnt mean I cannot think he may need replaced, there were 10+ players I would replace last season as I knew they were not that great but I didnt know who with.

Did you want rid of players before and did you know exactly who you thought we could get in their place? There are plenty of things in life we dont like but might not always have a solution for.

[dangermouse]

DM just because I dont have a direct replacement doesnt mean I cannot think he may need replaced, there were 10+ players I would replace last season as I knew they were not that great but I didnt know who with.

Did you want rid of players before and did you know exactly who you thought we could get in their place? There are plenty of things in life we dont like but might not always have a solution for.

Getting rid isn't always the solution. Unfortunately Hibs cannot go out and get Pep Guardiola (sp) and therefore have to make do signing the likes of Hughes (who for someone who had waited all his life for the job proceeded to cock it up big time) or take a gamble like Mowbray or Collins which sometimes pay off.

Have we taken a gamble with CC and and maybe even bigger one letting him rebuild the team? Like you, I can't answer that as only time will tell (where's that Delorean you mentioned earlier :wink:). Hindsight is wonderful but for me the initial signs are promising. If we brought in someone new now then potential signing targets would be consigned to the bin and we'd end up with last day bargain bucket signings probably not too dissimilar to the rubbish we watched for most of last season.

Fingers crossed there'll be some good news soon and the malaise on this board will lift to be replaced with blind optimism. :greengrin

[Captain Trips]

Getting rid isn't always the solution. Unfortunately Hibs cannot go out and get Pep Guardiola (sp) and therefore have to make do signing the likes of Hughes (who for someone who had waited all his life for the job proceeded to cock it up big time) or take a gamble like Mowbray or Collins which sometimes pay off.

Have we taken a gamble with CC and and maybe even bigger one letting him rebuild the team? Like you, I can't answer that as only time will tell (where's that Delorean you mentioned earlier :wink:). Hindsight is wonderful but for me the initial signs are promising. If we brought in someone new now then potential signing targets would be consigned to the bin and we'd end up with last day bargain bucket signings probably not too dissimilar to the rubbish we watched for most of last season.

Fingers crossed there'll be some good news soon and the malaise on this board will lift to be replaced with blind optimism. :greengrin


I have found them alarming at best DM.

[HibsMax]

Maybe, still doesnt IMO justify it, I think we could still host plenty of events of that ilk in something a lot smaller.

We could host the World Cup there and I think you would still think it's too big. :wink:

I'm not saying that to be mean but there have been a few suggestions given now that could explain why the facilities are the way they are but you seem unwilling to accept any of them, even though the Soccer Sevens sounds like it will generate more revenue for Hibs i.e., the facilities are paying for themselves. The facility could be 100 pitches and as long as someone is making use of them and Hibs are profiting from it, it sounds like a good piece of business.

[Captain Trips]

We could host the World Cup there and I think you would still think it's too big. :wink:

I'm not saying that to be mean but there have been a few suggestions given now that could explain why the facilities are the way they are but you seem unwilling to accept any of them, even though the Soccer Sevens sounds like it will generate more revenue for Hibs i.e., the facilities are paying for themselves. The facility could be 100 pitches and as long as someone is making use of them and Hibs are profiting from it, it sounds like a good piece of business.

Yes but you bring to my attention an event in 2011, it has been running for over 3yrs previous but I am sure other events have occured, I am not saying it will not generate money but so IMO would a smaller place.

[Kaiser1962]

I agree with you but the reality is that most clubs dont do this hence the imbalance. It is arguable that a number of clubs who finished above us this season are technically insolvent. The fine line we are having to tread is between being competitive and ensuring our survival and its a very difficult path to travel.

No one can argue the football side is going well.


I do not agree that should be done as part of normal service, that is a given for any business to make sure it survives as part of that duty they have lots of other things to do you are staing that as if the club is going to go out of business and that is their role to prevent it. That premise goes for every single company of course it has to survive and if not run properly every business will die. They are in charge of a dynamic business with variuos facets IMO they are not doing the footballing side of the business justice.

I do not think we are in a position on focusing on just surving I think we can look beyond that and onto the park.

[Captain Trips]

Ok if CC fails this term to the point of a sacking what do some of you think should happen above him?

[HibsMax]

We cant keep giving the board credit for infrastucture as good as it may be they have another duty on the park and IMO that has been failing for a long time, they are going to have to fall on their sword at some point if this continues, they cannot rest on a traing facility and a stand.
Why can't we give the board credit?

The club could not afford to invest in the training facility, the stand and the team all at once and they chose to go with the infrastructure first. Obviously many fans don't like that approach but there are some / many (?) who do support that approach BUT now that those projects are complete the board has to continue with the investment and by that I mean more on players, not more new non-player projects.

I very much doubt that the completion of the training facility and the stand means "Mission Complete" to the board, it's just another stage.

[Captain Trips]

Why can't we give the board credit?

The club could not afford to invest in the training facility, the stand and the team all at once and they chose to go with the infrastructure first. Obviously many fans don't like that approach but there are some / many (?) who do support that approach BUT now that those projects are complete the board has to continue with the investment and by that I mean more on players, not more new non-player projects.

I very much doubt that the completion of the training facility and the stand means "Mission Complete" to the board, it's just another stage.

I have given them credit, I fear they have taken the eye off the ball too much leaving us in the situation that will heap a ton of pressure on the manager to get it right. they might need to spend more money than needed if they had spent differently on other projects and keep IMO a closer control on the team. Sacking all these managers and having so many players run out of contract at same time was poor management and probaly costly.

[HibsMax]

This is what I've heard:

1. Calderwood offered his resignation twice when we were going through our long winless streak last season.
2. Calderwood is currently unhappy and demotivated at Hibs.
3. Calderwood has not bought a house up here.
4. Calderwood's family still reside in England.

1. I wonder how this is supposed to be interpreted? There are two ways in my mind. (a) I want to quit, or (b) if you think I'm doing a poor job, I'll stand down. I don't know how employment works in football but personally speaking, if I want to quit, I quit, I don't "offer" to quit.
2. Like the rest of us but assuming he is actually being supported in the transfer market, this should be a time of optimism, not doom and gloom as how good Hibs are next season is based largely on his acquisitions. The future is in his hands and that doesn't sound like something to be pessimistic about UNLESS he isn't getting the financial backing he wants.

[blackpoolhibs]

I have found them alarming at best DM.

:agree:

[Captain Trips]

:agree:

Good thing about views on this site you disagree with people on lots of stuff but have those situations of agreement, I am certain that with everyone who I disagree with on this thread I bet there are lots we agree on.

[HibsMax]

DM just because I dont have a direct replacement doesnt mean I cannot think he may need replaced,
What has CC done wrong in your eyes since coming to the club? I am not saying he IS the right man but surely you have to give him the time to build a team?

Let me take this to an absurd level to make my point. We fire CC, we bring in a replacement, how long do we give him?
1. 5 full seasons
2. a full season
3. half a season
4. 9 games
5. 5 games
6. 1 game
7. 45 minutes
8. 15 minutes

I think we can all agree that giving a new manager 5 full seasons is too much. Similarly, 15 minutes probably isn't long enough. That means the answer HAS to be somewhere in-between (but not necessarily one of the suggestions I listed). So how long do we give him? People wanted CC gone after a few months and I don't think that is long enough for anyone (that Hibs can afford or attract) to make their mark.

[blackpoolhibs]

Good thing about views on this site you disagree with people on lots of stuff but have those situations of agreement, I am certain that with everyone who I disagree with on this thread I bet there are lots we agree on.

While i disagree with you about east mains, i do agree regarding CC. for me he's shown virtually no managerial leadership. Results were terrible, the shape formations and team selections strange and baffling at times.

I'm yet to be convinced we dont have another dummy, but as with Mixu and Hughes he deserves his chance.

[Captain Trips]

While i disagree with you about east mains, i do agree regarding CC. for me he's shown virtually no managerial leadership. Results were terrible, the shape formations and team selections strange and baffling at times.

I'm yet to be convinced we dont have another dummy, but as with Mixu and Hughes he deserves his chance.

:agree:

[HibsMax]

I have given them credit, I fear they have taken the eye off the ball too much leaving us in the situation that will heap a ton of pressure on the manager to get it right. they might need to spend more money than needed if they had spent differently on other projects and keep IMO a closer control on the team. Sacking all these managers and having so many players run out of contract at same time was poor management and probaly costly.

It's been said before that letting the contracts run out at the same time is a GOOD piece of business (albeit lucky) because it allowed Hibs to offload a lot of players who were deemed surplus to requirements.

I don't doubt that switching managers so frequently is a concern.

I don't know why you think they've taken their eye off the ball, I think they know exactly what they are doing. The results on the pitch are awful, no argument there, but if you compare our club with those above and below us, I think it's easy to see who is in it for the long run. I don't know but how many clubs might find themselves in the position of needing to rebuild part of their stand at some point in the near future? Hibs don't need to do that. Neither do we need to concern ourselves with training facilities.

I think there's a ton of pressure on the manager to get it right anyway, this is no different.

"they might need to spend more money than needed" - pure speculation. (they might need to spend less so I could use your own argument against you).

[Captain Trips]

What has CC done wrong in your eyes since coming to the club? I am not saying he IS the right man but surely you have to give him the time to build a team?

Let me take this to an absurd level to make my point. We fire CC, we bring in a replacement, how long do we give him?
1. 5 full seasons
2. a full season
3. half a season
4. 9 games
5. 5 games
6. 1 game
7. 45 minutes
8. 15 minutes

I think we can all agree that giving a new managed 5 full seasons is too much. Similarly, 15 minutes probably isn't long enough. That means the answer HAS to be somewhere in-between (but not necessarily one of the suggestions I listed). So how long do we give him? People wanted CC gone after a few months and I don't think that is long enough for anyone (that Hibs can afford or attract) to make their mark.

When a new manager comes in some clubs surge on but that is not always the case and if that doesnt happen it does not mean the manger is no good. What happened at Hibs was nothing, it could have been any of the last 2 managers I was watching. The last 6 games I found very poor and excuses about meaningless matches doesnt wash with me.

If you pay for a ST I expect the same level on game 1 as game 36, if I pay at gate I expect same level and effort as game 1-36. Something is/was far from right and CC hasnt shown me it is sorted. I think it is a hell of a job here and I dont know if CC is right for it based on what I have seen thus far.

[Captain Trips]

It's been said before that letting the contracts run out at the same time is a GOOD piece of business (albeit lucky) because it allowed Hibs to offload a lot of players who were deemed surplus to requirements.

I don't doubt that switching managers so frequently is a concern.

I don't know why you think they've taken their eye off the ball, I think they know exactly what they are doing. The results on the pitch are awful, no argument there, but if you compare our club with those above and below us, I think it's easy to see who is in it for the long run. I don't know but how many clubs might find themselves in the position of needing to rebuild part of their stand at some point in the near future? Hibs don't need to do that. Neither do we need to concern ourselves with training facilities.

I think there's a ton of pressure on the manager to get it right anyway, this is no different.

"they might need to spend more money than needed" - pure speculation. (they might need to spend less so I could use your own argument against you).


I think all clubs are in for the long haul, maybe they dont feel the need to expand whatever training they have so it is not a factor, Killie, Motherwell, Dundee Utd to name but 3 all do not need to pay for stands either as far as I am aware so they are in it as much as us. Training facilities I do not know what these clubs have but maybe they are happy and no further investment is needed.

Leaving us all in the same boat of trying to get as many folk through the gates as possible to reduce debts allround.

[HibsMax]

When a new manager comes in some clubs surge on but that is not always the case and if that doesnt happen it does not mean the manger is no good. What happened at Hibs was nothing, it could have been any of the last 2 managers I was watching. The last 6 games I found very poor and excuses about meaningless matches doesnt wash with me.

If you pay for a ST I expect the same level on game 1 as game 36, if I pay at gate I expect same level and effort as game 1-36. Something is/was far from right and CC hasnt shown me it is sorted. I think it is a hell of a job here and I dont know if CC is right for it based on what I have seen thus far.

Who said the last six games were meaningless? Is that a quote from Calderwood? The games "were" meaningless but the way I understand things, CC was using those games to figure out exactly who was going to be here and who was not. While those games might not produce the best entertainment for the fans, and definitely not the results we wanted, but if it gave CC the information he needed to build us into a stronger team next season, I'm all for it.

If we give CC the opportunity to build his own side and we start off next season with 5 losses, you won't find me on here banging his drum quite as hard but I won't kick him out until he's been given a proper shot.

I don't work in the football industry, I work in software. If I was working on a project that was sinking and the manager was fired, if his/her replacement came in and the project still ran late (or over budget, etc) I would not think that he / she should be fired if the problems were largely due to the previous manager. It's just not fair. You have to give someone a fair crack. You're already fearing the worst about CC even though we haven't given him the opportunity to show us what he might be capable of doing. One window is all he has had so far and, at the time, the general consent was that he did pretty well.

[HibsMax]

I think all clubs are in for the long haul, maybe they dont feel the need to expand whatever training they have so it is not a factor, Killie, Motherwell, Dundee Utd to name but 3 all do not need to pay for stands either as far as I am aware so they are in it as much as us. Traing facilities I do not know what these clubs have but maybe they are happy and no further investment is needed.

Leaving us all in the same boat of trying to get as many folk through the gates as possible to reduce debts alround.

As I said, I don't know what expansion other clubs might need (I don't know what state their stands are in, etc), I'm just saying that is something we don't need to worry about. With nothing left to invest in other than the team, I would say we're in a good place financially........which is why I hope / expect to see more player investment from the board over the next few windows.

[Captain Trips]

Who said the last six games were meaningless? Is that a quote from Calderwood? The games "were" meaningless but the way I understand things, CC was using those games to figure out exactly who was going to be here and who was not. While those games might not produce the best entertainment for the fans, and definitely not the results we wanted, but if it gave CC the information he needed to build us into a stronger team next season, I'm all for it.

If we give CC the opportunity to build his own side and we start off next season with 5 losses, you won't find me on here banging his drum quite as hard but I won't kick him out until he's been given a proper shot.

I don't work in the football industry, I work in software. If I was working on a project that was sinking and the manager was fired, if his/her replacement came in and the project still ran late (or over budget, etc) I would not think that he / she should be fired if the problems were largely due to the previous manager. It's just not fair. You have to give someone a fair crack. You're already fearing the worst about CC even though we haven't given him the opportunity to show us what he might be capable of doing. One window is all he has had so far and, at the time, the general consent was that he did pretty well.

Sorry I meant people on here whom were saying it was ok to lose these matches.

[Captain Trips]

As I said, I don't know what expansion other clubs might need (I don't know what state their stands are in, etc), I'm just saying that is something we don't need to worry about. With nothing left to invest in other than the team, I would say we're in a good place financially........which is why I hope / expect to see more player investment from the board over the next few windows.

As far as I can tell it might not be something the clubs I mentioned need worry about as all fairly new in terms of building work, we dont need to worry but I dont think other teams do either, you suggested the long haul as if it was an advantage to us when I think all other clubs are also in complete stadiums too and look fine for future infrastructure wise. I will assume all the other clubs will only have team to invest in as well but like us they are in debt.

[HibsMax]

As far as I can tell it might not be something the clubs I mentioned need worry about as all fairly new in terms of building work, we dont need to worry but I dont think other teams do either, you suggested the long haul as if it was an advantage to us when I think all other clubs are also in complete stadiums too and look fine for future infrastructure wise. I will assume all the other clubs will only have team to invest in as well but like us they are in debt.

Yes, I think it is an advantage but how much of an advantage I don't know because I don't know the state of the grounds of the other teams (not just the teams in the SPL now but those that might be promoted). EDIT : Long haul meaning over the next few years / decades. We know that we won't need to do anything to our ground in that time, what about other teams? I said, "we know" but I don't really know, I'm relying on the job being done correctly.

Are Hearts not considering relocating? If so, that will mean MAJOR investment in a new stand. I realise that any argument using Hearts is a poor argument. :wink:

Anyway, I'm done with this particular thread of the debate as I've said everything I wanted to say (probably 12 times). We're in disagreement and that's fine.

[Beefster]

Sorry I meant people on here whom were saying it was ok to lose these matches.

It was okay to lose those matches if the result is that, longer-term, it allows Calderwood to make the right decisions about what players to retain, allows him to see who can play where and makes Hibs better quicker. IMO.

Your viewpoint doesn't take into account that some benefits might have come out of those last x number of games, irrespective of the results.

[dangermouse]

I have found them alarming at best DM.

Granted the results were not what we wanted but missing Thornhill towards the end of the season was a big loss.

I think most of us would agree that the signings CC brought in (with the exception of Divis) were better than most of what we had and in that respect the signs are encouraging.

[Captain Trips]

It was okay to lose those matches if the result is that, longer-term, it allows Calderwood to make the right decisions about what players to retain, allows him to see who can play where and makes Hibs better quicker. IMO.

Your viewpoint doesn't take into account that some benefits might have come out of those last x number of games, irrespective of the results.

Then again not a lot might have come out of them, we lost money in league placing due to it did we not.

[HibsMax]

Then again not a lot might have come out of them, we lost money in league placing due to it did we not.

Not necessarily, we may have lost those games anyway. Even though CC might have been experimenting, I doubt he was doing it with the express intent of losing games (more like he was less concerned about losing those games). Speculation on my part. :D

[Beefster]

Then again not a lot might have come out of them, we lost money in league placing due to it did we not.

That's not a particularly optimistic viewpoint.

Maybe the lessons Calderwood learnt were invaluable and will more than pay for themselves over the next season or two.

[HibsMax]

That's not a particularly optimistic viewpoint.

Maybe the lessons Calderwood learnt were invaluable and will more than pay for themselves over the next season or two.

That's my thinking. If he didn't experiment when he did he may have ended up keeping players that he shouldn't have and we may have ended up losing more important games as a result of that. Maybe. :wink:

[Captain Trips]

That's my thinking. If he didn't experiment when he did he may have ended up keeping players that he shouldn't have and we may have ended up losing more important games as a result of that. Maybe. :wink:

I would like to think he had seen more than enough in the previous 20+ matches to know who should be going.

[down the slope]

But by experimenting how many league places did he lose us at 60k a place ?, three or more places could have paid a players wages for a year.

[Mibbes Aye]

But by experimenting how many league places did he lose us at 60k a place ?, three or more places could have paid a players wages for a year.

Aye, if he wanted to experiment with players he should be covering the cost out of his own pocket. Who does he think he is, the manager or something? :rolleyes:

:greengrin

[truehibernian]

But by experimenting how many league places did he lose us at 60k a place ?, three or more places could have paid a players wages for a year.

The sell-on clause for big Sol will make up for that.........Stoke, Wolves, Everton and Villa keen. Can see him moving very soon to be honest.

[HibsMax]

I would like to think he had seen more than enough in the previous 20+ matches to know who should be going.
LOL. You don't budge an inch. :wink:. Let's say he DID know enough, in that case he wasted Hibs money by experimenting. I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that was not his game plan. So that means he didn't know enough about the team OR that he wanted to make absolutely certain he was making the correct decisions. "Measure twice, cut once", is a saying I am sure you are familiar with and it makes absolutely perfect sense. Do you think a carpenter with 20 years of experience is "wasting time / money" by making sure of his next cut before he makes it? Should he know with all his years of experience how to do something as simple as measuring a piece of wood before sawing through it? I'll take the cautious approach every time.


But by experimenting how many league places did he lose us at 60k a place ?, three or more places could have paid a players wages for a year.
We don't know because we may have lost all those games anyway. How many league places might we finish higher NEXT season as a result of his experimentation? Again, nobody knows because there is no way we can play the exact same season whilst making tiny little modifications to see how they would influence the end result.

[Captain Trips]

LOL. You don't budge an inch. :wink:. Let's say he DID know enough, in that case he wasted Hibs money by experimenting. I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that was not his game plan. So that means he didn't know enough about the team OR that he wanted to make absolutely certain he was making the correct decisions. "Measure twice, cut once", is a saying I am sure you are familiar with and it makes absolutely perfect sense. Do you think a carpenter with 20 years of experience is "wasting time / money" by making sure of his next cut before he makes it? Should he know with all his years of experience how to do something as simple as measuring a piece of wood before sawing through it? I'll take the cautious approach every time.


We don't know because we may have lost all those games anyway. How many league places might we finish higher NEXT season as a result of his experimentation? Again, nobody knows because there is no way we can play the exact same season whilst making tiny little modifications to see how they would influence the end result.

I think I got sidetraked a little, it is ok to experiment I was more unhappy with fans thinking it didnt matter so much if we lost due to players not trying as much as they could due to games being deemed meaningless.

[HibsMax]

I think I got sidetraked a little, it is ok to experiment I was more unhappy with fans thinking it didnt matter so much if we lost due to players not trying as much as they could due to games being deemed meaningless.

and there's the rub. For some fans, I can't possibly say all fans, NO game is meaningless......even if deep down they know it is. We want to see Hibs win every game. Now this is only my opinion but if we sacrificed the last 5 games of the season to make sure that NEXT season was not a repeat, I say it's money well spent. But how will next season turn out? Did CC hold onto and release the right players? Only time will tell.


Personally speaking I would have loved it if we could have experimented AND won those games, the two aren't, or shouldn't be, mutually exclusive.

For a reason that I cannot explain I am looking forward to next season more than any other season in recent years. I'm going to look around and see what sort of odds I can get on Hibs and put my money where my mouth is. All proceeds to go to some currently-undecided Hibs-related cause. Or maybe Breast Cancer but something other than my own back pocket.

Edit : it's quite possible that a lot of the lads knew their contracts weren't going to be renewed and didn't try as hard, or just thought there is nothing worth playing for but, to me, that's a silly notion because regardless of where their future lies, their next employer will be looking for men who play to the final whistle of every game.

[Captain Trips]

and there's the rub. For some fans, I can't possibly say all fans, NO game is meaningless......even if deep down they know it is. We want to see Hibs win every game. Now this is only my opinion but if we sacrificed the last 5 games of the season to make sure that NEXT season was not a repeat, I say it's money well spent. But how will next season turn out? Did CC hold onto and release the right players? Only time will tell.


Personally speaking I would have loved it if we could have experimented AND won those games, the two aren't, or shouldn't be, mutually exclusive.

For a reason that I cannot explain I am looking forward to next season more than any other season in recent years. I'm going to look around and see what sort of odds I can get on Hibs and put my money where my mouth is. All proceeds to go to some currently-undecided Hibs-related cause. Or maybe Breast Cancer but something other than my own back pocket.

Edit : it's quite possible that a lot of the lads knew their contracts weren't going to be renewed and didn't try as hard, or just thought there is nothing worth playing for but, to me, that's a silly notion because regardless of where their future lies, their next employer will be looking for men who play to the final whistle of every game.



crystal meth? :greengrin

[HibsMax]

crystal meth? :greengrin
LOL. No. (got any?).

[CB_NO3]

I am looking for a list of players, that have left the club since January and what wage they were roughly on. I am looking at the Rooney situation and thinking, surely we could offer him say Nish and Rankins wage. Anyway here is what I have came up with, feel free to add or edit.

Bamba - 2.5k
Hogg - 1.5k
McBride - 1k
Rankin - 1.2k
Nish - 2k
Zemmama - 2k
Miller - 3k
Riordan - 3k
Thicot - £900
Trakys - £600

That adds up, to just under 18k a week. We also got a fee from the Bamba and Zemmama transfers. I know we signed some players in January, but there must be some free money to pay players decent wages. The only problem now, is it looks like Season Ticket sales will be down by about 30-40% so Rod may be hard to budge. I cant see it being a busy summer for us, and I have a feeling Petrie will be happy to just stay in the league this year, and will be happy as he has saved a few ££££££