Hamas attack on Israel

[JimBHibees]

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Streeting's condemnation was spot on (as were his comments on the Israeli embassy incidentally). Even Glastonbury have come out and described Bob Vylan's actions as beyond the pale.

Considering a music festival was the scene of so much slaughter on October 7th,to use Glastonbury as a platform to call for the killing of Israeli soldiers is really crass.

His comment was something akin to he was appalled by the crowd chanting death to the IDF then indicates the Israelis need to get their house in order. Ffs have a backbone a murdering army committing war crimes being criticised is somehow of much more concern than the open genocide slaughter and starvation of men women and children. Embarrassing

[JimBHibees]

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...they are only following orders...

Where have I heard that before?

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Very valid comparison at present

[JimBHibees]

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Or are they just carrying out their orders as armed services personnel? Military service is compulsory in Israel (for males and females). As it is in Russia for males.

That doesn’t excuse

[Betty Boop]

Settlers attacking the IDF in the West Bank. Maybe regime change in Israel is required a basket case of a country.


.https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...military-says/

[tamig]

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Settlers attacking the IDF in the West Bank. Maybe regime change in Israel is required a basket case of a country.


.https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...military-says/

Some irony in that article. If that had been Palestinian residents they’d all have been shot dead. The settler maniacs literally get away with murder.

[Betty Boop]

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Some irony in that article. If that had been Palestinian residents they’d all have been shot dead. The settler maniacs literally get away with murder.

Quite

[Hibspur]

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There's one in memory of the Nova victims and the hostages:

https://x.com/AnneEstellaRock/status...ImJ_jGcDg&s=19

I'm not aware of anything nefarious happening to the person who flew it, you bet your last pound it would be all over social media if it did.

That's heartening to see, thanks.

PM weighs in on Bob Vylan:

Keir Starmer criticises 'appalling' Bob Vylan IDF chants:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c33514nryy1o

[Moulin Yarns]

I learnt something new today. Apparently anti semitic isn't showing hate towards zionism.

I'll let that sink in for the hard of thinking. 😉

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

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I learnt something new today. Apparently anti semitic isn't showing hate towards zionism.

I'll let that sink in for the hard of thinking.

Anti semitism is when you say Israel and the IDF are not perfect/you say it’s probably not ideal to bomb hospitals full of sick children/we should really hold an ally of NATO to higher standards than a proscribed terror group, you’re obviously very antisemitic. The BBC will never show your performances live ever again


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[Moulin Yarns]

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Anti semitism is when you say Israel and the IDF are not perfect/you say it’s probably not ideal to bomb hospitals full of sick children/we should really hold an ally of NATO to higher standards than a proscribed terror group, you’re obviously very antisemitic. The BBC will never show your performances live ever again


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Thing is, anti semitic covers every race in the middle east, so anti semitic includes all the Arab nations as well.


No idea how it became to mean Israel in particular.

[Kato]

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Thing is, anti semitic covers every race in the middle east, so anti semitic includes all the Arab nations as well.


No idea how it became to mean Israel in particular.

sons of Shem: semitic. Shem being Noahs son.

Arabs are seen as sons of Ishmael, Abraham's first born, illegitimate son

Biblical tribal nonsense but a great tool for loonies and politicians.

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[Bristolhibby]

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It's amazing how quickly a disinformation plan can be mobilised by the media and on social media.

The Daily Mail headline states a band led 'death to Israelis' chants. In quote marks. They didn't. Social media is awash with the usual suspects stating that people chanted 'kill the Jews' or 'kill all Israelis'. They didn't. You may argue it was implied but implying and actually saying aren't the same thing. There is quite possibly a debate to be had about the appropriateness of the chants about the IDF but let's have that debate, not a debate about something that didn't happen. As soon as you start inventing quotes that were never said then your argument isn't just diluted, it's void entirely because you are arguing from a standpoint that is based on a lie.

I don't think the aim is to have a serious debate though. It's about repeating the falsehood often enough that it becomes an accepted truth through a sort of osmosis. The same tactic as describing support for Palestinians as being support for Hamas. Sadly it works as well.

I’d imagine “Death to the Russian Army” would be fine.

I had a listen to some Bob Vylan songs today. Some powerful stuff.

I'm no pacifist, I'm smashing fists At every single racist prick I meet
I'm not having it, there's no "Kum ba yah"
To be found round here, no groovy beat
No liberal lefty ******
Is gonna tell me punching Nazis ain't the way
If you wanna hold hands and sing
Go do it over there while the big boys play, okay
I could do this all day long

[Moulin Yarns]

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sons of Shem: semitic. Shem being Noahs son.

Arabs are seen as sons of Ishmael, Abraham's first born, illegitimate son

Biblical tribal nonsense but a great tool for loonies and politicians.

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That's the biblical meaning but the Oxford English dictionary says this

a member of any of the peoples mentioned in Genesis 10:21–31 as descended from Shem, one of the sons of Noah, traditionally interpreted as including the Hebrews, Aramaeans, Assyrians, and Arabs. Subsequently also: a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language.

[Ozyhibby]

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That's heartening to see, thanks.

PM weighs in on Bob Vylan:

Keir Starmer criticises 'appalling' Bob Vylan IDF chants:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c33514nryy1o

Starmer fully supports what happening to the Palestinians. No surprise he found time to criticise this.


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[Sylar]

I wouldn't call myself a Bob Vylan 'fan', but I've seen them live twice (at a festival my wife and I go to every year for punk/hardcore/metal etc) and they never disappoint with their performances. As a contemporary punk who embraces many elements of rap culture and creates a unique crossover listening experience, I love their 'no punches pulled' approach - that is what artistic right should look like, and **** the BBC for thinking they have a right to tell me what musical messaging I should or should not be listening to. Same goes for Kneecap - I'm not a fan of their music (maybe one or two tracks I can get into), but it shouldn't be up to the BBC or the political elite to dictate what messaging gets out there.

The organisers of Glastonbury should take a long hard look at themselves for coming out with their 'appalled' and 'disgusted' nonsense. If you're trying to say you booked Bob Vylan without knowing they might do that, you did absolutely zero due dilligence on them. Also, it's clear to see this has become a smokescreen from the actual messaging of many bands over the course of the weekend - the continued genocide being perpetuated by the State of Israel. I bet the BBC and Glastonbury organisers were expecting some of this (while aiming to predictably censor some of it) and have most likely been surprised by how widespread the public sentiment is. The closure of the walkways to the stage Kneecap were playing at and the size of the crowd for both them and Bob Vylan says loudly that they are in the 'public interest'.

Absolutely nothing Bob Vylan said or chanted on Saturday is antisemitic. A free Palestinian people, no longer being slaughtered while queuing for basic necessities, is not an antisemitic idea. Wishing death on an organisation carrying out that genocide is not an antisemitic idea. Just because they are the military force of the Israeli State does not equate to antisemitic. You need a real lack in nuaunce and critical thinking make that leap. That notion, 'death to the IDF', is also not calling for the murder or violence against individuals within the IDF - it's calling for the abolition of an institution perpetuating mass violence against civilians. We all called for and celebrated the death of Rangers FC. No right-thinking individual was calling for all those affiliated with the club to be murdered. Death to the institution is one hell of a leap to wishing ill on those involved in it - all everyone with a moral compass wants to see is the death and suffering to stop.

[He's here!]

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That's heartening to see, thanks.

PM weighs in on Bob Vylan:

Keir Starmer criticises 'appalling' Bob Vylan IDF chants:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c33514nryy1o

I read that they may evade possible prosecution for hate speech on the basis that the IDF isn't UK based. Not sure if that's true.

[He's here!]

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Thing is, anti semitic covers every race in the middle east, so anti semitic includes all the Arab nations as well.


No idea how it became to mean Israel in particular.

Think it's related to races which still speak Semitic languages but I'm not 100% on that.

It's known as the oldest hatred and when all's said and fine it's racism.

[Bristolhibby]

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I read that they may evade possible prosecution for hate speech on the basis that the IDF isn't UK based. Not sure if that's true.

Also, it’s not a person, race, religion or ethnic race.

J

[Hibspur]

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I wouldn't call myself a Bob Vylan 'fan', but I've seen them live twice (at a festival my wife and I go to every year for punk/hardcore/metal etc) and they never disappoint with their performances. As a contemporary punk who embraces many elements of rap culture and creates a unique crossover listening experience, I love their 'no punches pulled' approach - that is what artistic right should look like, and **** the BBC for thinking they have a right to tell me what musical messaging I should or should not be listening to. Same goes for Kneecap - I'm not a fan of their music (maybe one or two tracks I can get into), but it shouldn't be up to the BBC or the political elite to dictate what messaging gets out there.

The organisers of Glastonbury should take a long hard look at themselves for coming out with their 'appalled' and 'disgusted' nonsense. If you're trying to say you booked Bob Vylan without knowing they might do that, you did absolutely zero due dilligence on them. Also, it's clear to see this has become a smokescreen from the actual messaging of many bands over the course of the weekend - the continued genocide being perpetuated by the State of Israel. I bet the BBC and Glastonbury organisers were expecting some of this (while aiming to predictably censor some of it) and have most likely been surprised by how widespread the public sentiment is. The closure of the walkways to the stage Kneecap were playing at and the size of the crowd for both them and Bob Vylan says loudly that they are in the 'public interest'.

Absolutely nothing Bob Vylan said or chanted on Saturday is antisemitic. A free Palestinian people, no longer being slaughtered while queuing for basic necessities, is not an antisemitic idea. Wishing death on an organisation carrying out that genocide is not an antisemitic idea. Just because they are the military force of the Israeli State does not equate to antisemitic. You need a real lack in nuaunce and critical thinking make that leap. That notion, 'death to the IDF', is also not calling for the murder or violence against individuals within the IDF - it's calling for the abolition of an institution perpetuating mass violence against civilians. We all called for and celebrated the death of Rangers FC. No right-thinking individual was calling for all those affiliated with the club to be murdered. Death to the institution is one hell of a leap to wishing ill on those involved in it - all everyone with a moral compass wants to see is the death and suffering to stop.

Is it? The bigger leap is trying to equate the liquidation of Rangers with what Bob Vylan chanted about the IDF. Of course he wished ill upon those involved in it.

[Sylar]

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Is it? The bigger leap is trying to equate the liquidation of Rangers with what Bob Vylan chanted about the IDF. Of course he wished ill upon those involved in it.

I'm not equating anything. Merely pointing out it's possible to wish for the abolition of an organisation without individually calling for the death of the individuals behind it. To think otherwise really demonstrates an inability for critical thinking.

I hope to one day see the death of major fossil fuel companies, arms companies, financial institutions that prop up businesses or firms that do ethical harm. It doesn't mean I have any interest in seeing the workers or even decision makers behind these institutions come to harm - legal prosecution where appropriate, sure (as I hope many within the IDF and its command structure will face before the Hague one day). But death indeed to firms like Exxon, Lockheed Martin, and Barclays.

[Hibspur]

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I'm not equating anything. Merely pointing out it's possible to wish for the abolition of an organisation without individually calling for the death of the individuals behind it. To think otherwise really demonstrates an inability for critical thinking.

I hope to one day see the death of major fossil fuel companies, arms companies, financial institutions that prop up businesses or firms that do ethical harm. It doesn't mean I have any interest in seeing the workers or even decision makers behind these institutions come to harm - legal prosecution where appropriate, sure (as I hope many within the IDF and its command structure will face before the Hague one day). But death indeed to firms like Exxon, Lockheed Martin, and Barclays.

Possible but not probable in this instance. He didn't call for the IDF's abolition, he repeatedly called for their death. It doesn't require critical thinking to understand the sentiment when you consider that the very existence of Israel induces such burning hatred within its enemies that they wish to see it wiped off the face of the earth.

[JimBHibees]

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Possible but not probable in this instance. He didn't call for the IDF's abolition, he repeatedly called for their death. It doesn't require critical thinking to understand the sentiment when you consider that the very existence of Israel induces such burning hatred within its enemies that they wish to see it wiped off the face of the earth.

It is the abhorrent genocide actions of that organisation which is triggering the hate not the existence of Israel

[Hibspur]

Bob Vylan coverage should have been pulled, says BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c75rr6g96z4o

A BBC spokesperson said: "The BBC respects freedom of expression but stands firmly against incitement to violence. The antisemitic sentiments expressed by Bob Vylan were utterly unacceptable and have no place on our airwaves."

Considering they had time to put up a content warning during the performance this smacks of trying to weasel their way out of trouble. It's also all very well for Glastonbury to subsequently express their outrage against the sentiments expressed, but they too should have known full well what to expect from this particular artist.

[Keith_M]

Personally, I don't think chanting 'Death to the IDF' is a great way to get your point over, but I'm struggling to see how singling out an army that is currently murdering thousands of innocent people is in itself Anti-Semitic, or racial/religous prejudice.

If I were to engage in a 'Death to the Wehrmacht' chant, it wouldn't automatically follow that I hate all Germans*



* The fact I married one might back that up

[Kato]

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Personally, I don't think chanting 'Death to the IDF' is a great way to get your point over, but I'm struggling to see how singling out an army that is currently murdering thousands of innocent people is in itself Anti-Semitic, or racial/religous prejudice.

If I were to engage in a 'Death to the Wehrmacht' chant, it wouldn't automatically follow that I hate all Germans*



* The fact I married one might back that up

It's clearly not anti-semitic.

Anyone portraying it as such is gaslighting.

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[jamie_1875]

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I'm not equating anything. Merely pointing out it's possible to wish for the abolition of an organisation without individually calling for the death of the individuals behind it. To think otherwise really demonstrates an inability for critical thinking.

I hope to one day see the death of major fossil fuel companies, arms companies, financial institutions that prop up businesses or firms that do ethical harm. It doesn't mean I have any interest in seeing the workers or even decision makers behind these institutions come to harm - legal prosecution where appropriate, sure (as I hope many within the IDF and its command structure will face before the Hague one day). But death indeed to firms like Exxon, Lockheed Martin, and Barclays.

If the IDF disappeared overnight as you seem to wish what do you think would happen to the people of Israel from the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran?

[Bostonhibby]

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It's clearly not anti-semitic.

Anyone portraying it as such is gaslighting.

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It's nothing to do with most of the definitions of semite/semitism I've seen. It's pretty common,and maybe even a natural human reaction to wish grief or worse on people or groups of people who are murdering innocent civilians especially children as they scramble for food.

I say this as someone who has read many books in an attempt to study the holocaust and came down very heavily on the side of the Jewish people and the other groups that a bunch of psychopathic cowards who happened to be in charge of the military arm of it's day didn't like.

I suspect none of the villains of this affair on either side will see their Nuremberg.

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[Sylar]

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If the IDF disappeared overnight as you seem to wish what do you think would happen to the people of Israel from the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran?

I don't know Jamie, I don't have a crystal ball. But one thing's for damned sure - allowing the occupying force to continue shooting unarmed civilians and commiting war crime after crime isn't a good enough reason to let that uncertainty be a critical factor in disbanding a genocidal regime.

[jamie_1875]

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I don't know Jamie, I don't have a crystal ball. But one thing's for damned sure - allowing the occupying force to continue shooting unarmed civilians and commiting war crime after crime isn't a good enough reason to let that uncertainty be a critical factor in disbanding a genocidal regime.

You could probably make a good guess as to what would happen to the citizens of Israel couldn't you?

No IDF around as they have disappeared and Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are pretty much free to do what they want and we got a taste of that on the 7th October. Imagine that across all Israel.

It's all well and fine to say death the IDF etc but the reality is they are the last line of defence against the terrorists and yes there is justification in saying Israel are the terrorists here but I don't think people who agree with death to the IDF or they want them to disappear understand the consequences of that, hence you said you didn't know what would happen but I think you do and I am guessing it's not something you would support.

Another way of asking the question is with no IDF (as you have said that is your wish) how do the Israeli people protect themselves from the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran? Create a nicer kinder version of the IDF?

[easty]

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You could probably make a good guess as to what would happen to the citizens of Israel couldn't you?

No IDF around as they have disappeared and Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are pretty much free to do what they want and we got a taste of that on the 7th October. Imagine that across all Israel.

It's all well and fine to say death the IDF etc but the reality is they are the last line of defence against the terrorists and yes there is justification in saying Israel are the terrorists here but I don't think people who agree with death to the IDF or they want them to disappear understand the consequences of that, hence you said you didn't know what would happen but I think you do and I am guessing it's not something you would support.

Another way of asking the question is with no IDF (as you have said that is your wish) how do the Israeli people protect themselves from the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran? Create a nicer kinder version of the IDF?

They're the first line of war crimes more like.