The Trans Rights Debate

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Whip removed is basically sacked from the party, then she has zero chance as an independent in the next election. But I clarified that obviously Swinney can't personally sack her from the equalities committee but he can have her removed. As the tories have tabled the motion, and if SNP go with it it then goes to parliament. Obviously she has no chance in parliament if the SNP want her sacked from the committee.

It will be interesting how it pans out the pressure from both sides will be big. If they back her a lot of the public will be against, if they get her out the greens will have a hissy

He can’t remove whip as not his party.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[500miles]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

https://youtu.be/PFHVYKrNpNk?si=KhMnaz4hNfhIKbtv

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

In order to accommodate the unsubstantiated beliefs of 1% of the population, we must change everyone else's lives, as those beliefs demand the participation of everyone else.

And I think the athlete he was referring to was Caster Semenya, who has admitted having internal testes and is indeed male and should have been competing in that category.

We should not legislate according to a tiny minorities belief systems, particularly those which fly in the face of measurable and definable reality. I know I'm repeating myself but for reasons already outlined, it's a disaster.

[Kato]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

In order to accommodate the unsubstantiated beliefs of 1% of the population, we must change everyone else's lives, as those beliefs demand the participation of everyone else.

And I think the athlete he was referring to was Caster Semenya, who has admitted having internal testes and is indeed male and should have been competing in that category.

We should not legislate according to a tiny minorities belief systems, particularly those which fly in the face of measurable and definable reality. I know I'm repeating myself but for reasons already outlined, it's a disaster.

You have a point. I don't know much about the specific cases you mention and don't really have any quibbles.

There is also way more pressing matters among the general population, I agree. The courts have made their decision so maybe the far more prevalent concern of male violence against women could be addressed by those new activists for women's rights who have been energised the last few years.

What I took from the clip was the idea that society is in a state of flux with the matter and sober discussion towards a solution, which will take time, is required - rather than point scoring and rigid positions.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

He can’t remove whip as not his party.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes obviously, I thought it didn't need saying that it's the greens that can remove the whip, obviously they won't because they probably think it's acceptable to say the court is bigoted.

He can whip his MSPs in the committee to back the Conservative motion to have her removed from deputy of the equalities committee. It then goes for a majority in parliament to agree if he whips it then she's out. She obviously should get booted if he's moving in from her rhetoric, but the greens won't be happy with him. It's going to be a clear side taking and I'm interested how it'll go next week

[147lothian]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

Britain's supreme court rules that women legally exist and trans activists have a temper tantrum, women's washrooms and changing areas being protected areas for women only is like the rise of the fourth reich for trans activists, placards that read "The only good TERF is a dead one, are aimed at Lesbians who don't accept that men who identify as women into their dating pool and women who want protected single sex spaces. Its deeply misogynistic.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Britain's supreme court rules that women legally exist and trans activists have a temper tantrum, women's washrooms and changing areas being protected areas for women only is like the rise of the fourth reich for trans activists, placards that read "The only good TERF is a dead one, are aimed at Lesbians who don't accept that men who identify as women into their dating pool and women who want protected single sex spaces. Its deeply misogynistic.

Lucky we have your balanced viewpoint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Lucky we have your balanced viewpoint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its more balanced than Maggie Chapman and Patrick Harvie's, the green tail is no longer wagging the SNP dog but we still don't know where Brian Sweeney is on the issue.

[500miles]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Lucky we have your balanced viewpoint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To be fair, the only difference between the people holding placards about killing TERFs and me is the the clothes they wear. You can bet if I was marching about the city centre with a sign saying "Feminists can suck my xxxx", there wouldn't be a "Well what it actually means....." type reaction.

People are giving their own tribes an incredible amount of leeway here. Everything within their bubble has an excuse and everyone outside is a facist, or on the opposing end a communist.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.libdems.org.uk/news/arti...-scotland-case

The Liberal Democrats response.

[superfurryhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

https://www.libdems.org.uk/news/arti...-scotland-case

The Liberal Democrats response.

Perhaps the Lib Dems could elaborate on what they would do, rather than just state the obvious?

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Perhaps the Lib Dems could elaborate on what they would do, rather than just state the obvious?

... whatever it takes to get them into Government?

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Perhaps the Lib Dems could elaborate on what they would do, rather than just state the obvious?

I think they are clear in what they are asking for.

However, given what she said, I am sure that she will agree with me that that should not come at the cost of the human rights and the security of another vulnerable group in society, which is what this ruling threatens to bring about. Could she explain where transgender people fleeing violence can now go for refuge, if they are to be completely excluded from refuges?

"For years, we have had this intolerable debate, in which two vulnerable groups have been pitted against each other. Those two groups are afraid of the same thing—violence, mostly from men.*

"The challenge for this Labour Government is to live up to the spirit of perhaps one of the proudest achievements of a previous Labour Government—the Equality Act—and protect everyone. If this Government are not able to do that, does the Minister think it would be acceptable to see trans women forced into men’s toilets, to face goodness knows what sort of aggression, and potentially violence, there? Will she confirm what she says about protecting trans rights?*



They are asking for protection of transgender people. Something that wasn't included in the Supreme Court judgment.

[Bostonhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

... whatever it takes to get them into Government?

Mr Ed returning to government again in an alliance with Badenoch this time?

Principles? What principles? Is their motto.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think they are clear in what they are asking for.

However, given what she said, I am sure that she will agree with me that that should not come at the cost of the human rights and the security of another vulnerable group in society, which is what this ruling threatens to bring about. Could she explain where transgender people fleeing violence can now go for refuge, if they are to be completely excluded from refuges?

"For years, we have had this intolerable debate, in which two vulnerable groups have been pitted against each other. Those two groups are afraid of the same thing—violence, mostly from men.*

"The challenge for this Labour Government is to live up to the spirit of perhaps one of the proudest achievements of a previous Labour Government—the Equality Act—and protect everyone. If this Government are not able to do that, does the Minister think it would be acceptable to see trans women forced into men’s toilets, to face goodness knows what sort of aggression, and potentially violence, there? Will she confirm what she says about protecting trans rights?*



They are asking for protection of transgender people. Something that wasn't included in the Supreme Court judgment.

What she is missing is that the EA provides for exclusion "where it is proportionate". In other words, it's not set in stone that trans women (pre or post-surgery) will be excluded. It will be up to those who use that space to make the judgement.

It's not ideal, of course, but neither is it as bleak as what is being suggested.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed

Hopefully it's the end of trans females being in female sports, prisons and hostels it's been utterly bizarre. I genuinely can't believe we've had a period where a professional biological male UFC fighters have fought women and male pre-op trans female rapists were going to put in female prisons, to protect them as a vulnerable group of biological males

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed

Hopefully it's the end of trans females being in female sports, prisons and hostels it's been utterly bizarre. I genuinely can't believe we've had a period where a professional biological male UFC fighters have fought women and male pre-op trans female rapists were going to put in female prisons, to protect them as a vulnerable group of biological males

The problem with gender neutral toilets is that there has been a judgement this week against borders Council because that's what they provided in a new primary school!

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The problem with gender neutral toilets is that there has been a judgement this week against borders Council because that's what they provided in a new primary school!

No they only had gender neutral toilets, females should have their own space away from biological males. There is no problem with having 3 toilets male, female, neutral

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No they only had gender neutral toilets, females should have their own space away from biological males. There is no problem with having 3 toilets male, female, neutral

It's a primary school for goodness sake!!!

Here's how daft the Supreme Court ruling is....

A mother can no longer take her toddler son into the female toilets and a father can't take his toddler daughters into the male toilets!

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's a primary school for goodness sake!!!

Here's how daft the Supreme Court ruling is....

A mother can no longer take her toddler son into the female toilets and a father can't take his toddler daughters into the male toilets!

There been a lot of trouble with boys kissing girls by force in my daughters primary. With easy access to **** like Andrew Tate nowadays I'd not be happy if she didn't have a space away from boys up to 12.

It hasn't stopped dads bringing there wee girls into the toilet that would come under where appropriate

[speedy_gonzales]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed

Hopefully it's the end of trans females being in female sports, prisons and hostels it's been utterly bizarre. I genuinely can't believe we've had a period where a professional biological male UFC fighters have fought women and male pre-op trans female rapists were going to put in female prisons, to protect them as a vulnerable group of biological males

Would you suggest the same provision for trans-males (pre or post Op)?

I'm genuinely not being facetious but if this latest ruling by the supreme court has the aim to protect biological women, then this genuinely needs to be considered.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Would you suggest the same provision for trans-males (pre or post Op)?

I'm genuinely not being facetious but if this latest ruling by the supreme court has the aim to protect biological women, then this genuinely needs to be considered.

No as I've said in the thread previously, when 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males we have a collective guilt to be kept away from biological females safe spaces. There is no increased threat to biological males from biological females being in their spaces. It's also why there isn't a debate around trans males joining in male sports, due to no physical advantage.

[Keith_M]

Everybody seems to imagine that Trans Culture is a relatively modern thing but I just found this photo of two soldiers in WWII...



Airmen_ormaybeairwomen.jpg

[speedy_gonzales]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No as I've said in the thread previously, when 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males we have a collective guilt to be kept away from biological females safe spaces. There is no increased threat to biological males from biological females being in their spaces. It's also why there isn't a debate around trans males joining in male sports, due to no physical advantage.

So your comfortable with trans-males using male hostels and being sent to male prisons?

Like I said, this judgment was to protect biological females, an unintended "reciprocal" consequence is trans-males being allowed/having to use womens single sex spaces.
I've already seen a backlash on social media, and I'm fairly sure it was staged but a large framed person with facial hair walks in to a female public convenience and although filmed from the outside you could clearly see the bewildered reaction from those coming out.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No as I've said in the thread previously, when 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males we have a collective guilt to be kept away from biological females safe spaces. There is no increased threat to biological males from biological females being in their spaces. It's also why there isn't a debate around trans males joining in male sports, due to no physical advantage.

Collective guilt is a tricky road to be going down?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So your comfortable with trans-males using male hostels and being sent to male prisons?

Like I said, this judgment was to protect biological females, an unintended "reciprocal" consequence is trans-males being allowed/having to use womens single sex spaces.
I've already seen a backlash on social media, and I'm fairly sure it was staged but a large framed person with facial hair walks in to a female public convenience and although filmed from the outside you could clearly see the bewildered reaction from those coming out.

Eh trans males would obviously be sent to female prisons and vice versa as that is the law and obviously the correct thing. This is obviously to protect females hard gotten rights and freedoms. Toilets is used to belittle the real issues like intimate care, hostels and prisons. They should definitely be separated by biological sex, but if the need is there separate sections within that could come

Trans women could use whatever toilet they wanted and no one will know or care, it's a manufactured problem.

[Hibrandenburg]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Everybody seems to imagine that Trans Culture is a relatively modern thing but I just found this photo of two soldiers in WWII...



Airmen_ormaybeairwomen.jpg

I think you'll find that's the RAF Nō2 dress uniform.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Collective guilt is a tricky road to be going down?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think it is when it comes to sex. It's pretty simple sexual assault is a male problem so that means you and me who wouldn't hurt anyone, shouldn't be in a female hostel. I don't know why any male would be offended by that. As I said before the Gisele Pelicot case shows there is males in every layer of society that would take advantage of a vulnerable female

[speedy_gonzales]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Eh trans males would obviously be sent to female prisons and vice versa as that is the law and obviously the correct thing.

That would have been my understanding but when you wrote

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed

I asked

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Would you suggest the same provision for trans-males (pre or post Op)?

You replied

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Eh trans males would obviously be sent to female prisons and vice versa as that is the law and obviously the correct thing.

I'm asking, do we segregate trans in general or is it just trans-women (as this whole debate seems to be solely focused on). I'm also wondering where my trans-male friends would go (if imprisoned for whatever reason). HMP Ratho House, general population? Considering they present very much like a hirsute male and are attracted to the female form I think this too could cause issues.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Toilets is used to belittle the real issues like intimate care, hostels and prisons

I couldn't agree more, this is way beyond whether we stand or squat to take a leak (or actually, maybe this is exactly what it's all about 🤔).

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That would have been my understanding but when you wrote

I asked

You replied


I'm asking, do we segregate trans in general or is it just trans-women (as this whole debate seems to be solely focused on). I'm also wondering where my trans-male friends would go (if imprisoned for whatever reason). HMP Ratho House, general population? Considering they present very much like a hirsute male and are attracted to the female form I think this too could cause issues.


I couldn't agree more, this is way beyond whether we stand or squat to take a leak (or actually, maybe this is exactly what it's all about 🤔).

There would be no problem sending a trans male to a female prison, lesbian relationships are hardly unusual in female prisons, but I would segregate them if they wanted it personally. The female prisoners wouldn't care, but they would if a biological male was there. The issue is biological males getting into female spaces because as I say a proportion of males are horrid. Ask any female you know if they have had a male act inappropriate to them, it will be very little amount that say never

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think you'll find that's the RAF Nō2 dress uniform.

Thanks for clarifying