The Trans Rights Debate

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

Looking after trans, shouldn't mean taking away from women. It's already illegal discriminate or abuse trans people and that won't change.

[500miles]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

That's not alternative to what I'm saying at all. I've already highlighted that trans people should be protected under the law as trans people, which should be agreeable to everyone.

[Keith_M]

I have a colleague at work who is biologically male, but self identifies as a woman. My colleague asks that we use the feminine pronouns to refer to her, so we all do.

She looks, for all intents and purposes, like a traditional male, and uses the 'Mens' toilets in the office. If she suddenly felt uncomfortable doing so she would, under company rules, be allowed to use the mixed-sex/disabled toilets provided on every floor.

She is a very nice person and I have the greatest of respect for her... and as far as i know, so do the rest of my colleagues.



Why can't that just be the norm?

[jamie_1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

Trans people are already protected under the Equality Act, the ruling made no changes to that. The difficulty is the balancing of it all as when you start taking rights away from a huge % of the population to appease the feelings of a tiny minority it will lead to conflicts.

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I have a colleague at work who is biologically male, but self identifies as a woman. My colleague asks that we use the feminine pronouns to refer to her, so we all do.

She looks, for all intents and purposes, like a traditional male, and uses the 'Mens' toilets in the office. If she suddenly felt uncomfortable doing so she would, under company rules, be allowed to use the mixed-sex/disabled toilets provided on every floor.

She is a very nice person and I have the greatest of respect for her... and as far as i know, so do the rest of my colleagues.



Why can't that just be the norm?

By 'looks like a traditional male' do you mean she dresses in men's clothing?

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Trans people are already protected under the Equality Act, the ruling made no changes to that. The difficulty is the balancing of it all as when you start taking rights away from a huge % of the population to appease the feelings of a tiny minority it will lead to conflicts.

I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

[jamie_1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

Going by the law then having a man in their legally protected space. For some women sharing a toilet or changing rooms with men is fine, for some it isn't and that's their right to object to that. I don't think us as men should be telling woman how they should act or feel about situations as you don't know their background and history. If you saw a woman objecting to this and told her she was being ridiculous how would you feel is she told you she was the victim of domestic abuse or worse and wanted the woman's toilets as a safe space for woman? Woman have fought hard to get their rights, we should not be chipping them away in my opinion so we don't hurt the feelings of a minority.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

Your deliberately picking the smallest issue to belittle all of the women's issues. Yes they won't have a problem with wash hand basin but things got so bizarre that the head of rape crisis Scotland was telling women who had been raped that they had bigoted views if they didn't want biological males in their hostels and support centres. You take away the right of a female to change naked at work with only their own biological sex. You take away their right to complete in sports with their own biological equivalent. You take away their right to have intimate medical care from your own sex if that is your choice. You take away lesbians rights to have groups and support that is biological female only

[jamie_1875]

I think the extreme trans activists don't really help the trans cause. The protest today in Edinburgh they sang about "giving us wombs and titties"

https://x.com/satiricole/status/1913...BOKA41ayg&s=19

Does this help trans people and the public opinion?

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Going by the law then having a man in their legally protected space. For some women sharing a toilet or changing rooms with men is fine, for some it isn't and that's their right to object to that. I don't think us as men should be telling woman how they should act or feel about situations as you don't know their background and history. If you saw a woman objecting to this and told her she was being ridiculous how would you feel is she told you she was the victim of domestic abuse or worse and wanted the woman's toilets as a safe space for woman? Woman have fought hard to get their rights, we should not be chipping them away in my opinion so we don't hurt the feelings of a minority.

They fought hard to get the vote, fought hard to get equal pay, etc etc etc. Did they really fight for the right to separate toilets? When did that happen? Didn't men just decide/assume that they should have separate toilets? Was there a time in the long-ago when toilets were shared? dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Your deliberately picking the smallest issue to belittle all of the women's issues. Yes they won't have a problem with wash hand basin but things got so bizarre that the head of rape crisis Scotland was telling women who had been raped that they had bigoted views if they didn't want biological males in their hostels and support centres. You take away the right of a female to change naked at work with only their own biological sex. You take away their right to complete in sports with their own biological equivalent. You take away their right to have intimate medical care from your own sex if that is your choice. You take away lesbians rights to have groups and support that is biological female only

Not doing anything of the sort.

[jamie_1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

They fought hard to get the vote, fought hard to get equal pay, etc etc etc. Did they really fight for the right to separate toilets? When did that happen? Didn't men just decide/assume that they should have separate toilets? Was there a time in the long-ago when toilets were shared? dunno:

If you don't support woman having their own spaces just come out and say so? If you really are interested though.

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Not doing anything of the sort.

You are, even in the reply above your focusing on toilets saying did they really fight for that. In reality that's one of the smaller issues, especially next to something like single sex support for people who have been raped or hostels for domestic violence victims etc

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If you don't support woman having their own spaces just come out and say so? If you really are interested though.

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureU...ts-in-Britain/

Interesting article thanks but I read that as women campaigning for public toilets, not campaigning for single sex toilets. In a similar way, women more recently have campaigned for access to other sorts of place from which they were previously unfairly excluded, like golf clubs and bits of Lords cricket ground.

I still don't fully understand why people of all genders and none seem happy to share swimming pools but not wash hand basins.

The wash hand basins issue is nothing to do with trans people in sport. Who takes part in sporting competitions, like the manner in which the competitions are run, is surely a matter of fairness rather than 'rights that women have fought hard for and don't want to give up'.

Perhaps it would be better if how public, workplace etc toilets are to be managed should also be a matter of fairness. At the moment it seems you have to be a warrior for either TERFS or trans people. How fair is it that 500,000 people should be othered, or be required to other themselves, just because they are, according to some of the warriors on this board, a 'tiny minority'?

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You are, even in the reply above your focusing on toilets saying did they really fight for that. In reality that's one of the smaller issues, especially next to something like single sex support for people who have been raped or hostels for domestic violence victims etc

A lot of the mass media focus seems to be on the management of toilet facilities. And with it a lot of sloppy thinking and headlines based on very vocal minorities on two sides of an argument which probably should not be two-sided, as it's essentially about balancing and protecting the vulnerabilities of two groups of vulnerable people, one of them very large and one very small. It's a bit unhealthy in our society that going for a pee and washing your hands is mixed up with rape.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

By 'looks like a traditional male' do you mean she dresses in men's clothing?

I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

A lot of the mass media focus seems to be on the management of toilet facilities. And with it a lot of sloppy thinking and headlines based on very vocal minorities on two sides of an argument which probably should not be two-sided, as it's essentially about balancing and protecting the vulnerabilities of two groups of vulnerable people, one of them very large and one very small. It's a bit unhealthy in our society that going for a pee and washing your hands is mixed up with rape.

To be honest your the one only wanting to talk about toilets which is a small issue compared to the problems that came when Scots gov said trans women are literally women. You can't have one or the other in law. By saying they were literally women it led to biological male rapists going into women's prisons, BM going into women's hostels and abuse shelters, BM giving females intimate care even if they requested females, BM playing in female sports, BM needing to be included in lesbian support groups and the head of Rape crisis Scotland saying female victims of rape needed reeducation to stop there bigotry if the didn't want BM in their groups and support.

If I was trying to ignore the many real and worrying problems that comes with saying trans women are literally women, I'd keep bringing up silly little washhand basins, titter

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.

I don't because I've never as far as I know been in your workplace.

You're asking why can't that be the norm, since she and everyone else is so comfortable with the arrangement. But if she dresses as a woman, are you suggesting she's just as comfortable using men's toilets everywhere as she is using them in the relatively cosy atmosphere of your workplace?

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

To be honest your the one only wanting to talk about toilets which is a small issue compared to the problems that came when Scots gov said trans women are literally women. You can't have one or the other in law. By saying they were literally women it led to biological male rapists going into women's prisons, BM going into women's hostels and abuse shelters, BM giving females intimate care even if they requested females, BM playing in female sports, BM needing to be included in lesbian support groups and the head of Rape crisis Scotland saying female victims of rape needed reeducation to stop there bigotry if the didn't want BM in their groups and support.

If I was trying to ignore the many real and worrying problems that comes with saying trans women are literally women, I'd keep bringing up silly little washhand basins, titter

You seem completely unable to separate the question I was asking from your general warlike stance on women's safety. I don't disagree with any of it. I hope you get your medal when they're dished out.

[147lothian]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Does the Supreme Court ruling not actually mean the opposite, as it has been ruled that 'Female' in the context of the 2010 Equalities Act, now means a 'biological Female'?

Yes it does, I blame Sturgeon's Scots Government for causing the confusion that made the Supreme Court ruling necessary. When Sturgeon said that trans women are women The Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act got muddled, so that if a hetrosexual man got a piece of paper saying that he is a women and is a lesbian, any lesbian group of more than 25 would by law have to admit him, so freedom of association was destroyed.

While I see the Supreme Court ruling as a win for common sense, part of me thinks that it's insane the amount of money that will have been spent and legislative time on something so basic and obvious, it's nuts that we need lawyers and judges to tell us what a women is when it's just patently obvious. They account for around half of the worlds population.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yes it does, I blame Sturgeon's Scots Government for causing the confusion that made the Supreme Court ruling necessary. When Sturgeon said that trans women are women The Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act got muddled, so that if a hetrosexual man got a piece of paper saying that he is a women and is a lesbian, any lesbian group of more than 25 would by law have to admit him, so freedom of association was destroyed.

While I see the Supreme Court ruling as a win for common sense, part of me thinks that it's insane the amount of money that will have been spent and legislative time on something so basic and obvious, it's nuts that we need lawyers and judges to tell us what a women is when it's just patently obvious. They account for around half of the worlds population.

Doubt the current SG will be spending any money or time on it now. New leadership, new direction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Doubt the current SG will be spending any money or time on it now. New leadership, new direction.

I think John Swinney already said as much, that they fully accept the decision and have no plans to contest it.

I agree with the previous poster as well that said it reflects badly on the SNP/Greens that they spent so much time and money on this in the first place.

It's also not a good look for Scottish Labour (particularly Sarwar), who seem to be forgetting, that they also voted in favour of the policy.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You seem completely unable to separate the question I was asking from your general warlike stance on women's safety. I don't disagree with any of it. I hope you get your medal when they're dished out.

The point is it can't be separated. By scot gov saying GRA makes trans literally a woman then all female spaces are grouped together, from wash hand basins to support groups. It doesn't effect me personally but my wife and daughter are happy with the decision. Hopefully women can get their own spaces and groups going forward and unisex toilets become much more common and people can get on with the real issues like gas prices and a genocide in Gaza. Thankfully Swinney looks like he's done with the culture wars and is moving on, I think the old damage is done to the SNP and they won't be effected going forward. Sarwar is rightfully getting slammed for looking like a revisionist

[Bristolhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think John Swinney already said as much, that they fully accept the decision and have no plans to contest it.

I agree with the previous poster as well that said it reflects badly on the SNP/Greens that they spent so much time and money on this in the first place.

It's also not a good look for Scottish Labour (particularly Sarwar), who seem to be forgetting, that they also voted in favour of the policy.

I wonder if this was the pushing of the greens on the SNP/Green government.

Without the Greens I’d be distancing myself from the third rail that this issue bizarrely seems to have become. Concentrate on Independence. Sell that vision. Stick to the rasion d’etre.

J

[superfurryhibby]

Interesting to read the conversation on here and compare some of it to my other social media.

I'm a supporter of the supreme court ruling. Self certification and the like isn't enough of a qualifying criteria for people with penises to access protected spaces designated for women. Organisations were tying themselves in knots about this kind of thing, now they have clarity.

I've been castigated on a personal level for pointing out to a Facebook friend that the court ruling in no way compromises Trans people's rights under the Equalities Act. The person in question is 21, a student and immersed in arts and culture. They claim so so many of their friends are hurting as a result of this decision, say that I only know one Trans person (a fairly close family member as it happens) and equate JK Rowling with exerting influence comparable to the like of Musk and his Cabal of Oligarchs.

Freedom of thought and the right to have a different opinion, presenting it in a non agitated way for debate, well that's apparently not acceptable to the self-righteous liberal young person..

Culture War is for me just another facet of the mass manipulation of people. We are such a divided society, the rise of the populism and the far right, the ****ing up of young people through overuse of mobile devices, de-sensitisation and exposure to porn, violence and nihilism, the cult of influential
right wing individuals, disillusionment with politicians etc, etc.....it's not taking us to a good place.

[Bishop Hibee]

Hurt feelings cannot justify the expressions of hatred towards anyone who agrees with the Supreme Court ruling that I’ve seen via and on social media. Some very unhinged individuals amongst the trans community.

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Hurt feelings cannot justify the expressions of hatred towards anyone who agrees with the Supreme Court ruling that I’ve seen via and on social media. Some very unhinged individuals amongst the trans community.

I have no doubt there are, just as there are in the mainstream communities.

[Hibrandenburg]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Hurt feelings cannot justify the expressions of hatred towards anyone who agrees with the Supreme Court ruling that I’ve seen via and on social media. Some very unhinged individuals amongst the trans community.

That's what happens when views become polarised, you get nutcases on both sides.

[Ozyhibby]

SG will not bring any more gender legislation forward. The issue is over as far as the SNP are concerned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

SG will not bring any more gender legislation forward. The issue is over as far as the SNP are concerned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not just the SNP who realized they were on the wrong side of public opinion with this issue, Kier Starmer said that he welcomed the decision of the Supreme Court and that it has given us much needed clarity, when asked if a trans women is an actual women, Kier Starmer said that a woman is an adult human female.