Housing

[RyeSloan]

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If managed properly then it would appear so. I really don't understand the role of the financial intermediary?

"A £22 million investment has been made into a scheme to increase investment in affordable homes and deliver more housing.

As part of Scotland's Charitable Bond Programme, the Scottish Government has provided funding to issue two new bonds via finance intermediary Allia to housing providers Link and Cairn Housing Association to provide support for more than 150 new homes.

The programme, which has been running since 2014, provides loans to social landlords to construct new affordable homes, with the interest being reinvested by the Scottish Government into the affordable housing budget to support more homes for social rent.

This latest extension will see the total number of bonds issued increased to 40 and a total investment of more than £482 million.

The SG is simply the source of capital.

The intermediary essentially does the donkey work. Most likely doing due diligence on the proposals from those seeking to raise the capital, the legals around the specific bond issuance and looking after the flow of monies between the parties and the like.

The assumption here is the bond interest will be lower (and thus the lower funding costs will ultimately feed through to lower rent) than what can be found on the normal capital markets and that the SG uses that return on capital and the return of capital to feed back into the loop.

All seems sensible enough but without actual ££ figures on how much better that approach is and how large this is in ££ against the rest of funding in the sector who really knows if it’s making any difference and if so how much.

[Andy Bee]

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The SG is simply the source of capital.

The intermediary essentially does the donkey work. Most likely doing due diligence on the proposals from those seeking to raise the capital, the legals around the specific bond issuance and looking after the flow of monies between the parties and the like.

The assumption here is the bond interest will be lower (and thus the lower funding costs will ultimately feed through to lower rent) than what can be found on the normal capital markets and that the SG uses that return on capital and the return of capital to feed back into the loop.

All seems sensible enough but without actual ££ figures on how much better that approach is and how large this is in ££ against the rest of funding in the sector who really knows if it’s making any difference and if so how much.

Seems to have been ramped up a bit in 2023.

https://alliacc.com/debt-capital-mar...ritable-bonds/

[Paul1642]

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An advert popped up on Instagram,


https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Cont...s%2C125&sr=8-2




Housing solution for temporary accommodation? There's a few options, search tiny house on amazon.

How much does a basic house actually cost to build in terms of labour and materials.

Of the cost of a house price, the land is probably the majority and the roads and utilities another chunk. I googled UK’s cheapest new build and the result was

“ Hyndburn, North West (£99,034 average new build price”

By the time you bought land to put the cabin on and built some roads and connected it to the grid, sewage ext, the price would be much higher than £12500. For all the difference in price you would probably be as-well building a low spec house.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Only 150 homes though. If that is all govt can afford to invest then they need to find a way to leverage in some private investment. We need a lot more than 150 homes.


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https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Container-Expandable-Portable-Restroom%EF%BC%8CPortable/dp/B0CZ1472MX/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=Q8VNDE64RDXC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9. DVxwH4kdCzAzxrkSE0O8Yf6BGq9rPM5gVosZweN2Aa4e6cY2wk FMlfBfL9PLJCknlpj6lZHpOrqYO0i5sTqGtc_TqCXRiANF1til LaSZaPf_PaMeD_kTmqtKqOih_ab8zJqin6MSF4rFgA2Hi3vwNA HqnZywgot-MwiA-tc6WhniGCTAFn3NxTBvet-owcVa9IfECfPfFK_bMw3vMtmwpA.khCRV7bp5GicwsDx1zBhpt 9J9PYMygczSH0AG4MzOtA&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+hou se&qid=1727785950&sprefix=tiny%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-2

Oh look, cheap affordable temporary accommodation, which you dissed. Static caravans are 3 times the cost. The biggest problem is land to put them on.

[Ozyhibby]

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https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Container-Expandable-Portable-Restroom%EF%BC%8CPortable/dp/B0CZ1472MX/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=Q8VNDE64RDXC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9. DVxwH4kdCzAzxrkSE0O8Yf6BGq9rPM5gVosZweN2Aa4e6cY2wk FMlfBfL9PLJCknlpj6lZHpOrqYO0i5sTqGtc_TqCXRiANF1til LaSZaPf_PaMeD_kTmqtKqOih_ab8zJqin6MSF4rFgA2Hi3vwNA HqnZywgot-MwiA-tc6WhniGCTAFn3NxTBvet-owcVa9IfECfPfFK_bMw3vMtmwpA.khCRV7bp5GicwsDx1zBhpt 9J9PYMygczSH0AG4MzOtA&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+hou se&qid=1727785950&sprefix=tiny%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-2

Oh look, cheap affordable temporary accommodation, which you dissed. Static caravans are 3 times the cost. The biggest problem is land to put them on.

I wasn’t dissing it. It’s just that build cost isn’t what is making housing unaffordable. It’s the deliberate restricting of the supply of land for putting the houses on. There is less chance of getting planning for one of them than an actual house.


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[Andy Bee]

It's land that's the big problem and the irony is everyone is screaming out for land reform whether that's in the form of a land tax, some sort of Council Tax equivalent or whatever. There's actually big political points to be had in a radical change of land ownership.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I wasn’t dissing it. It’s just that build cost isn’t what is making housing unaffordable. It’s the deliberate restricting of the supply of land for putting the houses on. There is less chance of getting planning for one of them than an actual house.


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I agree, release the land banks and we could build thousands of homes. Unfortunately the developers hold all the cards. I have a large enough garden that I could put one of those on,but we need thousands.

My point is the costs of the infrastructure is minimal, the land and utility connections are what brings the cost up.

I've no idea what the energy rating of these are, but the hebhomes I linked earlier is A rating for about £150k built.


Edit: I think you, Andy and me are on the same page

[Ozyhibby]

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I agree, release the land banks and we could build thousands of homes. Unfortunately the developers hold all the cards. I have a large enough garden that I could put one of those on,but we need thousands.

My point is the costs of the infrastructure is minimal, the land and utility connections are what brings the cost up.

I've no idea what the energy rating of these are, but the hebhomes I linked earlier is A rating for about £150k built.


Edit: I think you, Andy and me are on the same page

I’m not disagreeing. Land needs freed up for building. And the minute you get permission to build on it, you should start getting taxed on it.


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[Moulin Yarns]

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I’m not disagreeing. Land needs freed up for building. And the minute you get permission to build on it, you should start getting taxed on it.


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https://www.social-bite.co.uk/what-we-do/the-social-bite-village-model/

This model has to be expanded around the country. At least as a stepping stone to a permanent home.

[Ozyhibby]

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https://www.social-bite.co.uk/what-we-do/the-social-bite-village-model/

This model has to be expanded around the country. At least as a stepping stone to a permanent home.

I’m all for schemes like that.


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[superfurryhibby]

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https://www.social-bite.co.uk/what-we-do/the-social-bite-village-model/

This model has to be expanded around the country. At least as a stepping stone to a permanent home.

There are some flaws to what has been done by Social Bite Village down at Granton. Two folk sharing a tiny wee cabin isn't a model of temporary housing that works for many, the same with communal kitchen areas.

[Ozyhibby]

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There are some flaws to what has been done by Social Bite Village down at Granton. Two folk sharing a tiny wee cabin isn't a model of temporary housing that works for many, the same with communal kitchen areas.

It’s better than sharing a doorway though. No scheme is ever perfect.
I’d prefer we could just build enough houses that these schemes were not needed but until then it’s better than nothing.


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[superfurryhibby]

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It’s better than sharing a doorway though. No scheme is ever perfect.
I’d prefer we could just build enough houses that these schemes were not needed but until then it’s better than nothing.


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Of course it's better than a doorway. However, there are other many other less hyped services providing temporary accommodation in Edinburgh and cramped shared living spaces don't feature in them.

There has been a lot of publicity given to Social Bite and whilst it's received huge backing from media, celebrities and the wider public, it's not been a model that has been hugely developed upon. The proposed new village now includes single occupancy cabins.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Of course it's better than a doorway. However, there are other many other less hyped services providing temporary accommodation in Edinburgh and cramped shared living spaces don't feature in them.

There has been a lot of publicity given to Social Bite and whilst it's received huge backing from media, celebrities and the wider public, it's not been a model that has been hugely developed upon. The proposed new village now includes single occupancy cabins.

How do you know it's not been developed?

The social cafe movement is huge, and there's more than the Granton village.

[superfurryhibby]

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How do you know it's not been developed?

The social cafe movement is huge, and there's more than the Granton village.

I know because I looked at their website. They have three projects accommodating around 50 people across Scotland. This suggests to me that it's a model of housing that hasn't had huge uptake. I'm not saying they don't do good work, but I can guarantee you that there are people in this sector that would make a good case for making more effective use of the resources Social Bite have had access to.

How many Social Bites cafes are there across Scotland? I question the huge description. There are lots of community, social care and religious organisation's feeding people, including our football club.

Social Bites is well marketed and the public like it. Good for them, they do good work, and not just with temporary housing. There is also amazing work from other under the radar organisations, some of whom reach a lot more people.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I know because I looked at their website. They have three projects accommodating around 50 people across Scotland. This suggests to me that it's a model of housing that hasn't had huge uptake. I'm not saying they don't do good work, but I can guarantee you that there are people in this sector that would make a good case for making more effective use of the resources Social Bite have had access to.

How many Social Bites cafes are there across Scotland? I question the huge description. There are lots of community, social care and religious organisation's feeding people, including our football club.

Social Bites is well marketed and the public like it. Good for them, they do good work, and not just with temporary housing. There is also amazing work from other under the radar organisations, some of whom reach a lot more people.

Except you are only looking at Social Bite, the Scottish enterprise. Go around the uk, I saw 3 Social cafes in Oxford alone last week on holiday.

[superfurryhibby]

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Except you are only looking at Social Bite, the Scottish enterprise. Go around the uk, I saw 3 Social cafes in Oxford alone last week on holiday.

Ok

The link you posted , which I responded to identifies 4 social bite cafes in the UK, three of which are in Scotland. All the Social Bite Villages are in Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s weird how everyone thinks landlords make a fortune but we have to get charities to provide housing for people? That shows how broken the system is.


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[Andy Bee]

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It’s weird how everyone thinks landlords make a fortune but we have to get charities to provide housing for people? That shows how broken the system is.


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That's why landlords will be at the top of the list of hammerings come budget time. Although there's not much hammering left they can do.

[Ozyhibby]

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That's why landlords will be at the top of the list of hammerings come budget time. Although there's not much hammering left they can do.

Yip. They are being forced out at a rapid pace now. And it’s stopping new housing being built.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Ok

The link you posted , which I responded to identifies 4 social bite cafes in the UK, three of which are in Scotland. All the Social Bite Villages are in Scotland.

I've no idea if they do well with the money they receive or if they could do better as I don't know the facts. Without other knowledge I'd say they do good and highlight an important cause.

What they say

https://www.social-bite.co.uk/who-we-are/

Social Bite began life as a small coffee shop in Edinburgh, Scotland, in August 2012. We became involved in the homelessness issue when a young homeless man named Peter came into the coffee shop one day to ask us for a job.

When we offered this young man employment, this was the origin of an unexpected 10 years of charitable work and campaigning on the homelessness issue. We believe in the power of supportive employment to transform people’s lives; our ongoing aim is for 1 in 4 of our team to have come from a background of homelessness

This has led to us becoming a major employer of people experiencing homelessness and extreme barriers to employment, as well as one of the largest providers of free freshly made free food in the UK to those in need. We typically provide over 180,000 items of food and hot drinks every year through our network of coffee shops and distributed over 800,000 food packs during the pandemic

From 2016 to 2018, we organised mass participation fundraising sleep out events called Sleep in the Park. These events have seen over 18,000 people sleep out to call for an end to homelessness. The events have raised over £8 million which has been invested in a range of flagship projects to try and bring an end to homelessness

With funds raised from Sleep in the Park events, in 2018, we launched The Social Bite Village. For this project we took on some vacant council-owned land in Edinburgh and built a small village made up of 11 two-bedroom prefabricated houses and a large community hub. Today this village is home to a vibrant community of people helping each other get back on their feet. We partner with the Cyrenians to provide dedicated on-site support with links to employment, education and community activities.

We also created and launched Scotland’s Housing First program. For this program we secured 830 mainstream flats across 5 cities to provide permanent homes to Scotland’s rough sleepers and alongside The Scottish Government, we helped to fund wrap-around support to help people sustain their tenancies. More than 1333 people have now been given homes with support, and the response has been adopted by all local authorities in Scotland

Starting in 2014 we have opened our shops every Christmas Day and Christmas Eve to host festivities with all the trimmings, for people who might not have anywhere else to go. Since 2020 our annual Festival of Kindness collects gifts and donations throughout the festive period to support for people who are vulnerable or experiencing homelessness

In 2021, we consolidated learnings and launched our UK-wide employment programme. Jobs First provides real job opportunities with wrap-around support to people who have experienced homelessness. We have already supported over 28 formerly homeless people into employment and are working with 9 employers across the UK to transform access to the job market for those who have previously been excluded.

[lapsedhibee]

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That's why landlords will be at the top of the list of hammerings come budget time. Although there's not much hammering left they can do.

Are you referring to the predicted alignment of CGT with income tax band, or something else?

[Andy Bee]

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Are you referring to the predicted alignment of CGT with income tax band, or something else?

That for starters but I reckon there'll be more, landlords are an easy target.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not housing but planning which is ridiculously poor in the UK. There must be a reason why planning is so slow and so expensive in the UK it can't just be NIMBYs, some people probably donors must be trousering the money from this insanity

https://x.com/Sam_Dumitriu/status/184220891053237494

@Sam_Dumitriu
It cost £297m to produce the Lower Thames Crossing's 359,866 page long planning application.

That's more than it cost Norway to build the world's longest road tunnel.

The Department for Transport was meant to decide whether to approve it today. Instead, we got another delay

There have been 7 (!) consultations on the Lower Thames Crossing

[Moulin Yarns]

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Ok

The link you posted , which I responded to identifies 4 social bite cafes in the UK, three of which are in Scotland. All the Social Bite Villages are in Scotland.

Social Bite is one enterprise, based in Edinburgh, there are other ones in other areas of the UK!

As I said, in Oxford I found 3 cafes with Social enterprises at the core. Feel free to find others because there are plenty!


I see that Stairway has given more context.

[Ozyhibby]

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Are you referring to the predicted alignment of CGT with income tax band, or something else?

Osbourne struck the biggest blow with his section 24 tax changes. It has decimated the industry. There are very few new entrants now and people are selling up and getting out.


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[superfurryhibby]

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Social Bite is one enterprise, based in Edinburgh, there are other ones in other areas of the UK!

As I said, in Oxford I found 3 cafes with Social enterprises at the core. Feel free to find others because there are plenty!


I see that Stairway has given more context.

"We also created and launched Scotland’s Housing First program. For this program we secured 830 mainstream flats across 5 cities to provide permanent homes to Scotland’s rough sleepers and alongside The Scottish Government, we helped to fund wrap-around support to help people sustain their tenancies. More than 1333 people have now been given homes with support, and the response has been adopted by all local authorities in Scotland"

Very disingenuous statement. Social Bite are speaking about contributing funding to a largely Scottish Government funded national initiative, implemented by local authorities in partnership with a number of partners from housing providers and the third sector (not all local authorities have joined this initiative).

History

"That year, Social Bite catalysed a Housing First Pathfinder across 5 cities with £3m funding. In 2019, the Scottish Government connected the Government/CoSLA high level commitment to Housing First to the Social Bite programme that was already underway and in doing so became the main funder of a larger £10m Housing First Pathfinder programme to March 2022 that can reach further.

Toward the end of 2019, Scottish Government approved a progressive programme of work to ensure that people with frontline and lived experience of homelessness, through a new change team, will be at the heart of driving change over the next decade. We are proud to be leading on this work."

https://homelessnetwork.scot/history/

Social Bite are not senior partners within the Housing First initiative, far from it. As far as I understand they aren't really involved in the delivery at all. Information on the various partnerships seems a bit out of date. Here's an annual report from the Rapid Rehousing Transition initiative. I will credit Social Bite with contributing to the funding, alongside Merchant's House Glasgow and the Scottish Government, but not with providing the properties or supporting the people who live in them.

Rapid Rehousing Transition Initiative Plans are part of Scotland’s strategy to end homelessness, developed and delivered in response to local authority
circumstances. Local authorities have been working on the development and implementation of their rapid rehousing transition plan (RRTP) since 2019 and this report provides a summary of the work carried out by local authorities and their partners on progressing their plans in 2020/21. Many well known providers quoted, not Social Bite though.


https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conten...%2B2020-21.pdf

The founder of Social Bite is a polemic figure. He has been fantastic at engaging the wider public, fund raising and publicity/raising awareness of homelessness, whilst also managing to be subject to investigation by the Scottish Charities regulator, which was upheld (this was around governance).

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/holyroodsources/status...dxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[wookie70]

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It's land that's the big problem and the irony is everyone is screaming out for land reform whether that's in the form of a land tax, some sort of Council Tax equivalent or whatever. There's actually big political points to be had in a radical change of land ownership.

I think the SNP could get back on track if they started forming policy on radical land reform. Tax would be one way but I would rather the land was back in public hands with a view to building new towns and houses. CPO at the lowest cost possible massive chunks of land that was essentially gifted to Lords and Dukes and use it for the common good. Better still just take it back much of it was acquired on the back on citizens who got nothing for what they sacrificed

[Moulin Yarns]

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"We also created and launched Scotland’s Housing First program. For this program we secured 830 mainstream flats across 5 cities to provide permanent homes to Scotland’s rough sleepers and alongside The Scottish Government, we helped to fund wrap-around support to help people sustain their tenancies. More than 1333 people have now been given homes with support, and the response has been adopted by all local authorities in Scotland"

Very disingenuous statement. Social Bite are speaking about contributing funding to a largely Scottish Government funded national initiative, implemented by local authorities in partnership with a number of partners from housing providers and the third sector (not all local authorities have joined this initiative).

History

"That year, Social Bite catalysed a Housing First Pathfinder across 5 cities with £3m funding. In 2019, the Scottish Government connected the Government/CoSLA high level commitment to Housing First to the Social Bite programme that was already underway and in doing so became the main funder of a larger £10m Housing First Pathfinder programme to March 2022 that can reach further.

Toward the end of 2019, Scottish Government approved a progressive programme of work to ensure that people with frontline and lived experience of homelessness, through a new change team, will be at the heart of driving change over the next decade. We are proud to be leading on this work."

https://homelessnetwork.scot/history/

Social Bite are not senior partners within the Housing First initiative, far from it. As far as I understand they aren't really involved in the delivery at all. Information on the various partnerships seems a bit out of date. Here's an annual report from the Rapid Rehousing Transition initiative. I will credit Social Bite with contributing to the funding, alongside Merchant's House Glasgow and the Scottish Government, but not with providing the properties or supporting the people who live in them.

Rapid Rehousing Transition Initiative Plans are part of Scotland’s strategy to end homelessness, developed and delivered in response to local authority
circumstances. Local authorities have been working on the development and implementation of their rapid rehousing transition plan (RRTP) since 2019 and this report provides a summary of the work carried out by local authorities and their partners on progressing their plans in 2020/21. Many well known providers quoted, not Social Bite though.


https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conten...%2B2020-21.pdf

The founder of Social Bite is a polemic figure. He has been fantastic at engaging the wider public, fund raising and publicity/raising awareness of homelessness, whilst also managing to be subject to investigation by the Scottish Charities regulator, which was upheld (this was around governance).

What is your fixation with Social Bite? I have mentioned others, here's one in Perth https://www.giraffe-trading.co.uk/our-social-aims/

As well as homeless people, those with learning difficulties are given employment. In a few hours in Oxford I came across 3 similar social cafes, none were part of the social bite empire.

Regardless, they are all helping those people who are disadvantaged.