(Soon to be) Former President Donald Trump

***Ozyhibby*** · 09-06-2023 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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The FBI had to search his houses to find them.

He invited the FBI in to come and check and gave them full access to everything.
Trump repeatedly blocked the FBI until they had to raid his home. Trump then doctored the cctv videos to make it look like nobody had seen the docs.
There is a massive difference.

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***greenginger*** · 09-06-2023 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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He invited the FBI in to come and check and gave them full access to everything.
Trump repeatedly blocked the FBI until they had to raid his home. Trump then doctored the cctv videos to make it look like nobody had seen the docs.
There is a massive difference.

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Biden had been sitting on the documents for 7 years

***grunt*** · 09-06-2023 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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Biden had been sitting on the documents for 7 years

They obviously weren't that important then.

***grunt*** · 09-06-2023 05:53 PM

Yeah but Biden ...

***McD*** · 09-06-2023 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by grunt

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Yeah but Biden ...

if it wasn’t so terrifying that such documents are lying around, it would be comical given how much the Americans like to bang on about national security, and have been chasing the guy from wiki leaks for years, yet a ‘patriot’ has extremely sensitive information casually around the house

***s.a.m*** · 09-06-2023 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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Do you think Biden should be indicted as well ?

If there was evidence that he had committed a crime, then of course he should. In the wake of the Trump incident, his people looked through his stored documents to see if there was anything that should have been returned. They found some documents, reported them to the authorities and volunteered to cooperate with any further search or enquiry, which is what happened. Same thing with Mike Pence.In both cases, the investigation concluded that there had been no deliberate attempt to conceal or misuse the docs.

Trump ignored polite and discrete requests for the return of specific documents for over a year. He ignored a subpeona for their return, and we now know he moved boxes of documents out of the way of the ensuing FBI raid, and lied about it.

There's no comparison - if Trump had cooperated, we'd never have known he took them, and none of this would have happened.

Also worth noting that the rules on information handling were looser when Biden was VP. Trump criminalised mishandling of government documents as part of his ongoing campaign against Hillary Clinton.

***J-C*** · 10-06-2023 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Has he concealed any?

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Removed them from the Whitehouse and never replaced them after he was booted out, that's the offence.

**Glory Lurker** · 10-06-2023 07:13 AM

Take him away!

***greenginger*** · 10-06-2023 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by grunt

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They obviously weren't that important then.

Some of them were classified and that should be what matters. Blind justice and all that.

***Ozyhibby*** · 10-06-2023 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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Some of them were classified and that should be what matters. Blind justice and all that.

I think the attempt to obstruct and conceal is the difference?

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***s.a.m*** · 10-06-2023 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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Some of them were classified and that should be what matters. Blind justice and all that.

Except it doesn't. The national records authority published its guidelines on wrongly retained records, should you come across them after leaving office. Pence and Biden looked for and found materials and followed the official procedures for their return, and following investigation were not found to have committed an offence. If Trump had returned the records as requested, he wouldn't have been charged either.

As an aside, it was pointed out at the time that there is a recognised over-classification issue, with vast quantities of items being unnecessarily categorised as classified by default, and it was suggested that probably all previous presidents and VPs will have items amongst their papers that technically shouldn't be there.

However, none of that is relevant to Trump's indictments, which are based on, as others have pointed out, refusing to return, hiding, and lying about his wilful retention of documents that we now know have national security significance. And because he's a childish braggart, he showed one to at least one other person to demonstrate his importance.

***Smartie*** · 10-06-2023 10:00 AM

What the world needs more than anything right now is for folk to stop making excuses for the likes of Trump, Johnson and Putin and the way they play so fast and loose with stuff like the law and the truth.

Just because the end might be what you perceive to be in your interests, doesn't justify their means.

**TrumpIsAPeado** · 10-06-2023 10:23 AM

Isn't anyone curious to know what was in those documents that he was so desperate to hold on to?

***s.a.m*** · 10-06-2023 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

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Isn't anyone curious to know what was in those documents that he was so desperate to hold on to?

This article is from Reuters :

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trump-...es-2023-06-09/

There is more detail available about the document he's heard sharing with someone at Bedminster, when he was trying to show up General Milley.

The question is why. Some people have suggested he planned to sell them or use them as leverage. Others have suggested - maybe more likely - that he planned to use them to embarrass people or countries or just as 'trophies' to show off to himself and others how important he was.

***grunt*** · 11-06-2023 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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Do you think Biden should be indicted as well ?

Let's see what former US Attorney General William Barr:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...546732544?s=20

***Kato*** · 11-06-2023 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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Do you think Biden should be indicted as well ?

What would he be indicted on?

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***Ozyhibby*** · 14-06-2023 03:01 PM

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000616872738

A great listen.

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***Jim44*** · 14-06-2023 03:14 PM

I hope he is found guilty and punished accordingly. If found not guilty, I think he will walk the next election.

***Kato*** · 14-06-2023 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jim44

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I hope he is found guilty and punished accordingly. If found not guilty, I think he will walk the next election.

He can stand even if he's jailed.

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***Hibbyradge*** · 14-06-2023 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kato

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He can stand even if he's jailed.

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I don't think that's true.

***Ozyhibby*** · 14-06-2023 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

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I don't think that's true.

In some states he won’t even be able to vote, never mind stand for election. He needs to delay this as long as possible till after the election and hope he wins so he can pardon himself.

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***Kato*** · 14-06-2023 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

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I don't think that's true.

According to some yapper on the BBC News channel last night it is. He could stand but he wouldn't be allowed to vote.

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***Kato*** · 14-06-2023 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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In some states he won’t even be able to vote, never mind stand for election. He needs to delay this as long as possible till after the election and hope he wins so he can pardon himself.

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https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...rison-00090931

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***Ozyhibby*** · 14-06-2023 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kato

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https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...rison-00090931

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Fair play, I hadn’t realised it was possible. Doubt he has a chance either way but from prison, I think even Americans are not that daft.

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***Jim44*** · 14-06-2023 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kato

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He can stand even if he's jailed.

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Well, even if he can stand, he probably wouldn’t win. If he is not convicted, there will be a groundswell of support for him, and he will undoubtedly win.

***AltheHibby*** · 19-06-2023 08:41 AM

"As an aside, it was pointed out at the time that there is a recognised over-classification issue, with vast quantities of items being unnecessarily categorised as classified by default, and it was suggested that probably all previous presidents and VPs will have items amongst their papers that technically shouldn't be there."

When I was in the civil service I heard about an unnamed UK Government department that classified a manufacturer's advertising document as secret. A document that anyone could ask the manufacturer for!

***greenginger*** · 19-06-2023 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by AltheHibby

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"As an aside, it was pointed out at the time that there is a recognised over-classification issue, with vast quantities of items being unnecessarily categorised as classified by default, and it was suggested that probably all previous presidents and VPs will have items amongst their papers that technically shouldn't be there."

When I was in the civil service I heard about an unnamed UK Government department that classified a manufacturer's advertising document as secret. A document that anyone could ask the manufacturer for!

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trum...media-believes

I know it’s Fox News but the Presidents Records Act does seem to give Trump the right to retain any record from his time in the presidency.

***s.a.m*** · 19-06-2023 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trum...media-believes

I know it’s Fox News but the Presidents Records Act does seem to give Trump the right to retain any record from his time in the presidency.

This suggestion has been widely debunked, and the National Archives issued a statement rejecting it.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/29/polit...alk/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/09/polit...ent/index.html

***grunt*** · 19-06-2023 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trum...media-believes

I know it’s Fox News but the Presidents Records Act does seem to give Trump the right to retain any record from his time in the presidency.

Seriously, did you really, honestly believe something you read on Fox News?