The Trans Rights Debate

[Glory Lurker]

And if it is correct, in a secular society should anybody think it is cool that some men are trying to dictate to people what they should think because of some weird god stuff?

[Berwickhibby]

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About as much debate as I expected the OP’s announcement to generate, but I suspect not what they were hoping for 😁

There are a couple of individuals that might just be capable of turning this into something mind you…

I did not leave an opinion at the fear or of being called an Islamophobe… as I personally think it’s bollocks

[WeeRussell]

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I did not leave an opinion at the fear or of being called an Islamophobe… as I personally think it’s bollocks

You’re not an islamophobe, and it is bollocks 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

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You’re not an islamophobe, and it is bollocks 👍

Exclusive! Berwickhibby admits to posting bollocks 😉

[Berwickhibby]

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Exclusive! Berwickhibby admits to posting bollocks 😉

Exclusive : Moulin Yarns posts another snidey comment

[147lothian]

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I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

There are parts of Glasgow that have large Muslim & Indian populations.

[WeeRussell]

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There are parts of Glasgow that have large Muslim & Indian populations.

Fact.

[Hibrandenburg]

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There are parts of Glasgow that have large Muslim & Indian populations.

There are whole swaths of the world that have been held back from progress due to religious belief and its influence on decision making. The fact that religious leaders across the spectrum are now calling the move to grant trans people equal rights as immoral just sways me more to the side of transgender equality.

[Paul1642]

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Should they be able to consent to their own medical treatment?

In short No.

Can’t drink, can’t smoke, can’t leave home without parental consent, cant gamble, can’t get a credit card, can’t get a mortgage, can’t drive, if they work a minimum wage job they get paid near enough 50% the wage of an adult doing the same job, can’t get a tattoo, can’t be interviewed by the police without an appropriate adult present, can’t serve on a jury, can’t write a will. can’t marry, can’t serve in the armed forces (can join with parental consent but basically in an education only role until 18), can’t watch porn, can’t buy fireworks, can’t vote (unless it suits the government on special occasions), and get special treatment at court including for the most serious of crimes. Infact a 16 Y/O can’t even view half the films at the cinema or buy the latest call duty.

Why are any of these things more serious than medial consent?

16 year olds should be making the minimal amount of major decisions possible and this includes medical consent. In the UK you’re not an adult until your are 18 and this is to protect kids, not hinder them.

This isn’t a negative opinion of 16 year olds. Like the rest of us I was 16 year old once and I of course knew it all back then and believed that I was mature enough to do all of these things (except with the magic of hindsight I absolutely was not). The 16 year old brain simply isn’t close to being fully developed and should not be making life changing decisions.

[Bristolhibby]

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In short No.

Can’t drink, can’t smoke, can’t leave home without parental consent, cant gamble, can’t get a credit card, can’t get a mortgage, can’t drive, if they work a minimum wage job they get paid near enough 50% the wage of an adult doing the same job, can’t get a tattoo, can’t be interviewed by the police without an appropriate adult present, can’t serve on a jury, can’t write a will. can’t marry, can’t serve in the armed forces (can join with parental consent but basically in an education only role until 18), can’t watch porn, can’t buy fireworks, can’t vote (unless it suits the government on special occasions), and get special treatment at court including for the most serious of crimes. Infact a 16 Y/O can’t even view half the films at the cinema or buy the latest call duty.

Why are any of these things more serious than medial consent?

16 year olds should be making the minimal amount of major decisions possible and this includes medical consent. In the UK you’re not an adult until your are 18 and this is to protect kids, not hinder them.

This isn’t a negative opinion of 16 year olds. Like the rest of us I was 16 year old once and I of course knew it all back then and believed that I was mature enough to do all of these things (except with the magic of hindsight I absolutely was not). The 16 year old brain simply isn’t close to being fully developed and should not be making life changing decisions.

In Scotland are you not an adult at 16?

[McSwanky]

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In Scotland are you not an adult at 16?

It's all a bit blurred. You can e.g. get married, have a baby, join the army, all of which I'd say are life changing experiences, but there are loads of things you can't do, as listed above.

I'm still not convinced the lowering of age is going to have a negative impact, especially as further safeguards seem to be in place, e.g. the three month rule becomes 6 months. As somebody pointed out above, gender fluidity is becoming much more accepted in the younger population now, so I'd like to think obtaining a GRC (whilst reversible for most) won't been seen as that important for most 16/17 year olds. They'll just be allowed to live the way they want to live without a bit of paper to prove "who they are" .

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[archie]

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It's all a bit blurred. You can e.g. get married, have a baby, join the army, all of which I'd say are life changing experiences, but there are loads of things you can't do, as listed above.

I'm still not convinced the lowering of age is going to have a negative impact, especially as further safeguards seem to be in place, e.g. the three month rule becomes 6 months. As somebody pointed out above, gender fluidity is becoming much more accepted in the younger population now, so I'd like to think obtaining a GRC (whilst reversible for most) won't been seen as that important for most 16/17 year olds. They'll just be allowed to live the way they want to live without a bit of paper to prove "who they are" .

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Is getting a GRC reversible?

[LewysGot2]

Age at which you can do a number of the things are influenced by medical wisdom on the development of the body and the brain. Eg there is a compelling body of evidence showing that the younger a person starts drinking alcohol, statistically they will drink more, have a higher chance of addiction and higher rate of health conditions in later life connected to alcohol use or abuse. If they start drinking regularly prior to their body being fully mature, this increases further. The age of 18 therefore stands even though that same person could possibly marry in Scotland at the age of 16.
They can join the army but not go to combat - there's acknowledgement in employment law that at under 18 they are still minors. Even the kick off time of our youth team games have to be earlier to meet the same standards for U18 employees working hours.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/...UvMI4bwgplTGpg

Tavistock scandal 'on a par with East German doping of athletes'.

[147lothian]

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https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/...UvMI4bwgplTGpg

Tavistock scandal 'on a par with East German doping of athletes'.

The Tavistock's reliance on puberty blockers was like the 20th century craze for treating mental illness with lobotomies. Dr Hillary Cass was appalled that the Tavistock never followed established protocols for the safe use of life changing hormone treatment.

Dr Hillary Cass's findings, outlined how the Tavistock failed to keep accurate records of all the children treated with hormones as they grew up, so there was no long-term monitoring of the outcomes. In short the Tavistock was closed because it failed vulnerable children.

The Tavistock used the gender affirming model, which basically means a 14 year old girl with scars on her arms says "I think I was born in the wrong body" and the clinicians confirm this and put her puberty blockers. What will happen now with the closure of the Tavistock and gender clinics being brought into line with NHS Mental Health Services is they will now say to the 14 year old girl with scars on her arms who says she was born in the wrong body, "Ok but first we want to talk to you about the scars on your arms".

https://segm.org/Tavistock-closure-the times

[He's here!]

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The Tavistock's reliance on puberty blockers was like the 20th century craze for treating mental illness with lobotomies. Dr Hillary Cass was appalled that the Tavistock never followed established protocols for the safe use of life changing hormone treatment.

Dr Hillary Cass's findings, outlined how the Tavistock failed to keep accurate records of all the children treated with hormones as they grew up, so there was no long-term monitoring of the outcomes. In short the Tavistock was closed because it failed vulnerable children.

The Tavistock used the gender affirming model, which basically means a 14 year old girl with scars on her arms says "I think I was born in the wrong body" and the clinicians confirm this and put her puberty blockers. What will happen now with the closure of the Tavistock and gender clinics being brought into line with NHS Mental Health Services is they will now say to the 14 year old girl with scars on her arms who says she was born in the wrong body, "Ok but first we want to talk to you about the scars on your arms".

https://segm.org/Tavistock-closure-the times

Cass's findings, which underline that gender dysphoria can be transient, have, as you say, sparked a major shift by NHS England in their approach. Her review was ignored by Sturgeon who claimed, bewilderingly, that it didn't apply to Scottish children.

[Bristolhibby]

Meanwhile in the real world violence against Trans people is what I’m more concerned about. Rather than some far out hypothetical scenarios regarding changing rooms.

A 16 year old murdered over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

[Stairway 2 7]

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Meanwhile in the real world violence against Trans people is what I’m more concerned about. Rather than some far out hypothetical scenarios regarding changing rooms.

A 16 year old murdered over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

Although there is undoubtedly a massive problem with hate crimes against trans people, I think it's poor to use a poor young girls death to counter debate, especially when police don't yet suspect a hate crime.

A Cheshire Police spokesman said on Monday: “Whilst this is being investigated as a targeted attack and Brianna was a trans girl, we do not at this time believe it was a hate crime. We ask people to not speculate online ”

[CropleyWasGod]

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Although there is undoubtedly a massive problem with hate crimes against trans people, I think it's poor to use a poor young girls death to counter debate, especially when police don't yet suspect a hate crime.

A Cheshire Police spokesman said on Monday: “Whilst this is being investigated as a targeted attack and Brianna was a trans girl, we do not at this time believe it was a hate crime. We ask people to not speculate online ”

There is no need for the T word to be used in the headlines IMO, just as there isn't in the story of the alleged kidnapper in Galashiels. It just fuels division.

[Stairway 2 7]

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There is no need for the T word to be used in the headlines IMO, just as there isn't in the alleged kidnapper in Galashiels. It just fuels division.

Agree especially the gala one wouldn't say gay or black kidnapper. who cares it was just a ****bag, they come from all sections of society in equal proportions

[500miles]

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There is no need for the T word to be used in the headlines IMO, just as there isn't in the story of the alleged kidnapper in Galashiels. It just fuels division.

If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.

There's no evidence to support that, though, so far. If any becomes apparent, then I agree with you.

[Stairway 2 7]

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If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.

First sentence would be true if that is proven the case. The police suspect its not so its just a poor girl murdered and other shameful addition to our knife crime problem.

If its a hate crime its a different story although speculation is daft as it was in Galashiels

[archie]

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If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.

We don't know why the poor kid was killed. All we know is that one child is dead and two children have been lifted for it. What a world

[ronaldo7]

India Willoughby has been told by police not to post her location on social media.

[Ozyhibby]

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First sentence would be true if that is proven the case. The police suspect its not so its just a poor girl murdered and other shameful addition to our knife crime problem.

If its a hate crime its a different story although speculation is daft as it was in Galashiels

It’s a real shame that she will be listed as a boy on her death certificate.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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India Willoughby has been told by police not to post her location on social media.

Yeah that was at the start of the year. She said police told her to not put up locations as she gets so much vile abuse on social media

[Stairway 2 7]

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It’s a real shame that she will be listed as a boy on her death certificate.


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She should be listed as whatever her parents want or she would have wanted. GRA wouldn't change that as she was just starting her transition and 16 but an ammendment could be added.

[Ozyhibby]

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She should be listed as whatever her parents want or she would have wanted. GRA wouldn't change that as she was just starting her transition and 16 but an ammendment could be added.

Amendment to what?


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Amendment to what?


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I was going to say a family can request what goes on a death certificate. But actually I'm presuming what she wanted I've no idea so daft to comment