The Trans Rights Debate

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64586523

A step in the right direction.

[He's here!]

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Very interesting read, Ella Wheelan, exposed how Gender Self-ID doesn't stand up to scrutiny on Question Time when Jenny Gilruth tied herself in knots trying to evade her question.

Also Nicola Sturgeon has done mental gymnastics trying to defend Gender Self-ID, there is starting to be a realization within the SNP that making a niche issue a constitutional battle is political suicide considering the conflict in interests between trans rights to have Gender Self-ID and the rights of biological women to have same sex spaces. Trans women are women except when they're rapists is an Orwellian absurdity.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...askill-4018179

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...tland-64579774

They seem to be sticking with 'man' in this case.

[CropleyWasGod]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-64579774

They seem to be sticking with 'man' in this case.

Presumably because, when charged, the suspect was comfortable with that.

[147lothian]

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https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...rance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

Make no mistake, Police Scotland acknowledging the reality of biological sex, over the fantasy world of 'I identify as' is one in the eye for Nicola Sturgeon.

I view Nicola Sturgeon as a very able politician she must know that she is doing the cause of independence harm, by sticking with the lunacy of Gender Self-ID.

It won't be long before Nicola Sturgeon takes a gig at the EU Mark my words.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Make no mistake, Police Scotland acknowledging the reality of biological sex, over the fantasy world of 'I identify as' is one in the eye for Nicola Sturgeon.

I view Nicola Sturgeon as a very able politician she must know that she is doing the cause of independence harm, by sticking with the lunacy of Gender Self-ID.

It won't be long before Nicola Sturgeon takes a gig at the EU Mark my words.

Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

[ronaldo7]

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Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

😂

[Stairway 2 7]

Only gig in the EU she can take is at Scotland House and that won't pay enough. Can see her getting a UN job. If she's smart though she'll do the speech toures in the US, im sure she would do very well.

That utter buffoon Boris has apparently made 5 million from talks since he stopped being PM. Actually mind numbing and infuriating that people pay huge sums for him to bumble

[147lothian]

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Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

Whether she goes to the EU or some other globalist organization like the World Health Organization or just retires and does nothing the point is the same that she will soon move away from front line politics for the sake of Independence. Dropping below a 50 percent lead in the opinion polls, a lead that took 30 years to build up over the madness of Gender Self-ID makes no sense to the cause of Independence, Stuart MacDonald SNP MP is the latest to break ranks and point this out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-64566957

[He's here!]

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Presumably because, when charged, the suspect was comfortable with that.

Perhaps. I just thought it was curious that, as the Record points out, both his/her Facebook accounts as Andrew/Amy identify as 'female' and that 'criminal incidents are recorded according to the self-identified gender of victims, witnesses and suspects'.

Bearing in mind today's reversal by Scottish prisons of Sturgeon's self-ID policy is it perhaps the case that Police Scotland have also departed from that policy in this case to spare her fresh pronoun pain?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Perhaps. I just thought it was curious that, as the Record points out, both his/her Facebook accounts as Andrew/Amy identify as 'female' and that 'criminal incidents are recorded according to the self-identified gender of victims, witnesses and suspects'.

Bearing in mind today's reversal by Scottish prisons of Sturgeon's self-ID policy is it perhaps the case that Police Scotland have also departed from that policy in this case to spare her fresh pronoun pain?

PS were reviewing their gender-ID policy last year. AFAIK, they haven't announced any change

[Stairway 2 7]

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PS were reviewing their gender-ID policy last year. AFAIK, they haven't announced any change

The change is all people will go temporarily to the prison of their gender at birth until assessment, that's been announced today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1623784415720615937

[CropleyWasGod]

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The change is all people will go temporarily to the prison of their gender at birth until assessment, that's been announced today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1623784415720615937

That's not Police Scotland, which is what we were talking about:)

[Stairway 2 7]

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That's not Police Scotland, which is what we were talking about:)

Thought your ps was for sps who did the uturn. It's pointless speculating on police Scotland as the man/woman could have asked to be charged as a man or might not even even want to be seen as a woman

[CropleyWasGod]

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Thought your ps was for sps who did the uturn. It's pointless speculating on police Scotland as the man/woman could have asked to be charged as a man or might not even even want to be seen as a woman

Agreed on that.

Edit. Just re-read the Sun piece. The headline is "Trans butcher charged...". The T word is unnecessary IMO, and only serves to help demonise an already marginalised community. Imagine if they had been described as gay, Muslim or (heaven forfend) cis.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www-walesonline-co-uk.cdn.am...asier-26174624


A step in the right direction in Wales. Wonder how long before England catches up?

[He's here!]

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Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

[147lothian]

I know that some people are going to say it's Alex Salmond he is only saying this because he is bitter, but the point he is making is basically the same as Stuart MacDonald SNP MP, that the cause of Scottish independence is being damaged by going down this rabbit hole of Gender Self-ID.

There is obviously a conflict that cannot be resolved between the nine SNP members who broke party whip to vote against the GRRB and Nicola Sturgeon, there is no way the SNP would have still been in this position if Alex Salmond was still in charge he would have sat down with the nine, and changed policy to avoid making it a constitutional issue.

The way that Ella Wheelan made Jenny Gilruth MSP tie herself in knots trying to avoid answering her question on Question Time and also the way Nicola Sturgeon has had to do mental gymnastics over Gender Self-ID, and has been reduced to incoherence. Must show that this is a fight they can't possibly win.

[Kato]

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You may laugh but the question still remains - "Is God Mr Ineffable or Mrs Ineffable".

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[McSwanky]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

Fair enough. It's a valid viewpoint. on the flip side, stories like this actually make me wonder if things would be better for the likes of Sinead/Sean after the legislation. With more acceptance (both legally and in their community) for people who want to live a certain way without going down the route of life changing surgery, health professionals may be more likely to suggest a 'wait and see' approach as people would be able to change gender (and back again) without so many hoops to jump through.

Just my tuppence.

[McSwanky]

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tie herself in knots

If I had a pound for every time anyone has parroted that phrase on this thread, reckon I'd have enough to buy myself a pretty decent new pair of trainers!

[James310]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

This sums up why many think 16 is too young.

"Ms Watson said she was particularly worried about the idea that the age limit for legally changing gender could be lowered to 16.

"If you don't actually have gender dysphoria and you go down that route you end up like me, where you've irreversibly changed your body with hormones and surgery and you feel humiliated, you feel ashamed of yourself and you feel completely betrayed by the people that allowed this to happen," she says.

[He's here!]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co....ivist-29173907

I know it's the Express, but IIRC Douglas was the one singled out by the Scottish Greens (and Lib Dem leader Alex Cole-Hamilton) as the sort of person who exemplified why the bill had been passed. Judging by the pic published they would appear to be fans.

[Paul1642]

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This sums up why many think 16 is too young.

"Ms Watson said she was particularly worried about the idea that the age limit for legally changing gender could be lowered to 16.

"If you don't actually have gender dysphoria and you go down that route you end up like me, where you've irreversibly changed your body with hormones and surgery and you feel humiliated, you feel ashamed of yourself and you feel completely betrayed by the people that allowed this to happen," she says.

Anyone who has met an average 16 year old should be able to quickly conclude that they shouldn’t be making any unnecessary life changing decisions.

[Glory Lurker]

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Anyone who has met an average 16 year old should be able to quickly conclude that they shouldn’t be making any unnecessary life changing decisions.

Should they consent to their own medical treatment?

[Paul1642]

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Should they consent to their own medical treatment?

They can’t even get a tattoo at 16.

[Glory Lurker]

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They can’t even get a tattoo at 16.

Should they be able to consent to their own medical treatment?

[Berwickhibby]

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

[WeeRussell]

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About as much debate as I expected the OP’s announcement to generate, but I suspect not what they were hoping for 😁

There are a couple of individuals that might just be capable of turning this into something mind you…

[ronaldo7]

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I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

It's in the express. It must be right. 😂😂😂😂

Leaving this for debate. 😃