The Trans Rights Debate

[hibby rae]

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Bad topic for the SNP to use to highlight an otherwise arguable point. These reforms were brought in despite a lack of general public support.

Two points I think are relevant looking at the polling, the recent polling appears to have been conducted on the behalf of right wing publications, Wings Over Scotland, or anti-GRA groups. However, back in February it would seem a majority approved of the legislation when the BBC was the source. It would be interesting to see who was involved as from what I can see in the media, online, and in my own experience, the two main groups opposed appear to be women, over a certain age, and men, again I think age will play a factor.

"Professor Sir John Curtice from Strathclyde University said: “If the views of the under 35s are indicative of the direction we are going, it may well be in ten or twenty years time what at the moment is the subject of intense debate perhaps will become less so.”"

Another point about public opinion and elected officials possibly being out of step is, they are voted in to act on the public's behalf, and generally remove consultation from decision making (The SNP had it in their manifesto, which provided the authority to act). This means they will be provided a great deal of independence in their actions, separate from possible public opinion, as we don't live in a country where referendums are commonplace on important issues.

A good example of that is the abolition of the death penalty, a majority of the public still supported it but lawmakers acted too remove it as they saw it as a wrong that needed to be righted.

[superfurryhibby]

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No harm in posting it again, the more who get to read it the better!

Hardly, it’s cliched pish.

[hibby rae]

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Hardly, it’s cliched pish.

No coming back there from such a well-structured, reasoned argument

[Stairway 2 7]

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Two points I think are relevant looking at the polling, the recent polling appears to have been conducted on the behalf of right wing publications, Wings Over Scotland, or anti-GRA groups. However, back in February it would seem a majority approved of the legislation when the BBC was the source. It would be interesting to see who was involved as from what I can see in the media, online, and in my own experience, the two main groups opposed appear to be women, over a certain age, and men, again I think age will play a factor.

"Professor Sir John Curtice from Strathclyde University said: “If the views of the under 35s are indicative of the direction we are going, it may well be in ten or twenty years time what at the moment is the subject of intense debate perhaps will become less so.”"

Another point about public opinion and elected officials possibly being out of step is, they are voted in to act on the public's behalf, and generally remove consultation from decision making (The SNP had it in their manifesto, which provided the authority to act). This means they will be provided a great deal of independence in their actions, separate from possible public opinion, as we don't live in a country where referendums are commonplace on important issues.

A good example of that is the abolition of the death penalty, a majority of the public still supported it but lawmakers acted too remove it as they saw it as a wrong that needed to be righted.

The BBC polling last year had every age group a majority saying, they didn't want trans men in changing rooms, female sports or under 18s changing.

I think almost everyone wants more rights for trans people bar a few caveats, like women's only rape support

[He's here!]

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Bad topic for the SNP to use to highlight an otherwise arguable point. These reforms were brought in despite a lack of general public support.

Indeed.

[He's here!]

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No coming back there from such a well-structured, reasoned argument

The likes of Jones inhabit the extremes of trans ideology where trans rights are placed above those of women and his comment piece is a lazy reflection of that, failing to acknowledge that those women opposing the bill at no time took an anti-trans stance - possibly because he never bothered to follow the debate and simply piggy-backed his own views on to the final outcome. Had he taken the time to weigh up both sides of the argument he might have understood that a piece of legislation which sees one group's rights supersede those of another by diminishing them can only be regarded as bad law.

[hibby rae]

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The BBC polling last year had every age group a majority saying, they didn't want trans men in changing rooms, female sports or under 18s changing.

I think almost everyone wants more rights for trans people bar a few caveats, like women's only rape support

Well the polling this year had a majority supporting the legislation

[hibby rae]

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The likes of Jones inhabit the extremes of trans ideology where trans rights are placed above those of women and his comment piece is a lazy reflection of that, failing to acknowledge that those women opposing the bill at no time took an anti-trans stance - possibly because he never bothered to follow the debate and simply piggy-backed his own views on to the final outcome. Had he taken the time to weigh up both sides of the argument he might have understood that a piece of legislation which sees one group's rights supersede those of another by diminishing them can only be regarded as bad law.

Except the 'at no point' bit isn't actually true. Seen it with my own eyes.

I don't agree with the argument women's rights are diminished, and tbh every woman I know bar a couple (who are over both over 70) don't either. I find it a lazy argument with no real evidence to back it

[heretoday]

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Except the 'at no point' bit isn't actually true. Seen it with my own eyes.

I don't agree with the argument women's rights are diminished, and tbh every woman I know bar a couple (who are over both over 70) don't either. I find it a lazy argument with no real evidence to back it

I agree with that.

[superfurryhibby]

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Except the 'at no point' bit isn't actually true. Seen it with my own eyes.

I don't agree with the argument women's rights are diminished, and tbh every woman I know bar a couple (who are over both over 70) don't either. I find it a lazy argument with no real evidence to back it

The irony of calling another point of view lazy with these kind of points

Post us a link to the anti trans stuff?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Well the polling this year had a majority supporting the legislation

No polling has had a majority supporting the contentious points, like under 18s changing, or women only places being diminished.

The bit you say no real evidence apart from you asking your pals. What about the disabled woman in the pages before that says she deserves biologically female only care. Doesn't fit the narrative so not listened to or transphobic

[Stairway 2 7]

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The irony of calling another point of view lazy with these kind of points

Post us a link to the anti trans stuff?

I've yet to see transphobic stuff, pure unicorn on here anyway

[Moulin Yarns]

I've not done the maths, but I have seen it estimated that there are around 220,000 transgender people in the whole of the UK. So if the total population is 67,000,000 then the probability of a transgender woman or man working in the care system is very small.

Anybody good at maths?

0.0000003% of the total population??

[McSwanky]

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I've not done the maths, but I have seen it estimated that there are around 220,000 transgender people in the whole of the UK. So if the total population is 67,000,000 then the probability of a transgender woman or man working in the care system is very small.

Anybody good at maths?

0.0000003% of the total population??

I think that works out at about 0.3% of the population?

[He's here!]

While this issue looks to be on hold until after the festive season, I imagine the battle lines will be redrawn as we enter the new year. It's interesting to note that in the interim a Labour MP is among those to have put her name to this letter. Starmer has painted himself into a corner here since he made such a hash of defining what a woman was last year and Labour have been running scared of this debate ever since (hence their supine performance at Holyrood last week).

Cross-party MPs warn women will be put in danger by Nicola Sturgeon’s trans law reforms
msn
Nicola Sturgeon’s transgender law reforms will put women and girls across the UK in danger and must be blocked, female MPs have warned.
Three cross-party MPs have written to Alister Jack, the Scotland Secretary, urging him to intervene after Scotland's gender recognition bill was passed at Holyrood last week to allow people as young as 16 to change their legal gender simply by signing a declaration.
The legislation reduces the age at which people can apply for a birth certificate with their new sex by two years, and allows people to update their certificate without a gender dysphoria diagnosis.
While the legislation applies to Scots, MPs have warned in a letter to Mr Jack, seen by The Telegraph, that the bill will “threaten the legal basis on which women and girls are currently protected in the rest of the United Kingdom”, as well as posing “a real risk to the safety of women and girls in Scotland”.
Conservative MP Miriam Cates, Labour’s Rosie Duffield and the DUP’s Carla Lockhart, said in the joint letter that there remains “extreme ambiguity” about whether the so-called Gender Recognition Certificates in Scotland have the same legal status elsewhere in the UK.
The MPs argued that such a change in the law relating to how a biological male could gain access to a Gender Recognition Certificate, stating that he is legally a woman, “does not contain adequate safeguards and changes the law relating to the Equality Act”.
They also said that the legislation could put the UK Government in breach of its obligations under the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.
The letter will heap pressure on the Government to ban the Scottish legislation, in what would likely spark a bitter constitutional row between London and Edinburgh.
Mr Jack has warned that the Government is considering invoking Section 35 of the 1998 Scotland Act, which gives him the power to block a Scottish Parliament bill if he can show “reasonable grounds” to believe that it would obstruct the operation of a law reserved to the UK, or if it would be incompatible with any international obligations.
Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said last week that it was “completely reasonable” for the UK Government to assess the bill. He said that “lots of people” were concerned about its potential impact on “women’s and children’s safety”.
Kemi Badenoch, Women and Equalities Minister, has also expressed objections to the legislation, which passed despite opposition from sections of the SNP and some equalities groups. She has said that she shares their concerns, particularly on the bill’s “impact on the functioning of the Equality Act, which is designed to protect all UK citizens”.
A Scottish Government spokesman said:“The bill as passed is within legislative competence and simplifies the process by which a trans person can obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, which many find intrusive, medicalised and bureaucratic. Any attempt by the UK Government to undermine the democratic decision of the Scottish Parliament will be vigorously contested by the Scottish Government.”

[wookie70]

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I think that works out at about 0.3% of the population?

I dare say that figure could also be halved too as usually the complaints are usually around biological men declaring as female. The examples given by those against the legislation are really pretty statistically marginal at best. I have struggled with this but the more I read the less I am concerned with the new legislation.

[Ozyhibby]

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While this issue looks to be on hold until after the festive season, I imagine the battle lines will be redrawn as we enter the new year. It's interesting to note that in the interim a Labour MP is among those to have put her name to this letter. Starmer has painted himself into a corner here since he made such a hash of defining what a woman was last year and Labour have been running scared of this debate ever since (hence their supine performance at Holyrood last week).

Cross-party MPs warn women will be put in danger by Nicola Sturgeon’s trans law reforms
msn
Nicola Sturgeon’s transgender law reforms will put women and girls across the UK in danger and must be blocked, female MPs have warned.
Three cross-party MPs have written to Alister Jack, the Scotland Secretary, urging him to intervene after Scotland's gender recognition bill was passed at Holyrood last week to allow people as young as 16 to change their legal gender simply by signing a declaration.
The legislation reduces the age at which people can apply for a birth certificate with their new sex by two years, and allows people to update their certificate without a gender dysphoria diagnosis.
While the legislation applies to Scots, MPs have warned in a letter to Mr Jack, seen by The Telegraph, that the bill will “threaten the legal basis on which women and girls are currently protected in the rest of the United Kingdom”, as well as posing “a real risk to the safety of women and girls in Scotland”.
Conservative MP Miriam Cates, Labour’s Rosie Duffield and the DUP’s Carla Lockhart, said in the joint letter that there remains “extreme ambiguity” about whether the so-called Gender Recognition Certificates in Scotland have the same legal status elsewhere in the UK.
The MPs argued that such a change in the law relating to how a biological male could gain access to a Gender Recognition Certificate, stating that he is legally a woman, “does not contain adequate safeguards and changes the law relating to the Equality Act”.
They also said that the legislation could put the UK Government in breach of its obligations under the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.
The letter will heap pressure on the Government to ban the Scottish legislation, in what would likely spark a bitter constitutional row between London and Edinburgh.
Mr Jack has warned that the Government is considering invoking Section 35 of the 1998 Scotland Act, which gives him the power to block a Scottish Parliament bill if he can show “reasonable grounds” to believe that it would obstruct the operation of a law reserved to the UK, or if it would be incompatible with any international obligations.
Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said last week that it was “completely reasonable” for the UK Government to assess the bill. He said that “lots of people” were concerned about its potential impact on “women’s and children’s safety”.
Kemi Badenoch, Women and Equalities Minister, has also expressed objections to the legislation, which passed despite opposition from sections of the SNP and some equalities groups. She has said that she shares their concerns, particularly on the bill’s “impact on the functioning of the Equality Act, which is designed to protect all UK citizens”.
A Scottish Government spokesman said:“The bill as passed is within legislative competence and simplifies the process by which a trans person can obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, which many find intrusive, medicalised and bureaucratic. Any attempt by the UK Government to undermine the democratic decision of the Scottish Parliament will be vigorously contested by the Scottish Government.”

Is it on hold or is it just a case that people don’t really care that much about it as an issue and now that it’s done people have lost what little interest they had in the first place?


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[neil7908]

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I dare say that figure could also be halved too as usually the complaints are usually around biological men declaring as female. The examples given by those against the legislation are really pretty statistically marginal at best. I have struggled with this but the more I read the less I am concerned with the new legislation.

I've struggled with this debate as a man but have spoken with my (female) partner and other female friends/family who I trust to be honest with me on delicate issues like this.

Not a single one suggested this was anywhere near the top of their list in terms of their safety. The overwhelming response was concern around rampant misogyny across society, rape culture and the shockingly low conviction rate for sexual assault.

Whilst its positive to see so many men on here expressing concerns around women's safety, I look around this site and see very few other threads on this topic. I hope all the energy from this discussion will continue and we'll see all those strongly opposed to the legislation continue to champion women's rights etc going forward.

[McSwanky]

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I've struggled with this debate as a man but have spoken with my (female) partner and other female friends/family who I trust to be honest with me on delicate issues like this.

Not a single one suggested this was anywhere near the top of their list in terms of their safety. The overwhelming response was concern around rampant misogyny across society, rape culture and the shockingly low conviction rate for sexual assault.

Interestingly, that's my experience as well. Anecdotal I know, but I haven't found anyone in my circle who consider this bill to affect their personal safety.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I've struggled with this debate as a man but have spoken with my (female) partner and other female friends/family who I trust to be honest with me on delicate issues like this.

Not a single one suggested this was anywhere near the top of their list in terms of their safety. The overwhelming response was concern around rampant misogyny across society, rape culture and the shockingly low conviction rate for sexual assault.

Whilst its positive to see so many men on here expressing concerns around women's safety, I look around this site and see very few other threads on this topic. I hope all the energy from this discussion will continue and we'll see all those strongly opposed to the legislation continue to champion women's rights etc going forward.

Good post and I've had a similar debate with female friends and family and none of them have men pretending to be woman very high on their concerns regarding male predators.

It's also interesting to see some of the champions of woman's rights on here who objected to a men's curfew on the thread with that title, one particular poster even suggesting that men who come out in support of woman's rights are even creepy. There's more going on here than meets the eye.

[Ozyhibby]

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I've struggled with this debate as a man but have spoken with my (female) partner and other female friends/family who I trust to be honest with me on delicate issues like this.

Not a single one suggested this was anywhere near the top of their list in terms of their safety. The overwhelming response was concern around rampant misogyny across society, rape culture and the shockingly low conviction rate for sexual assault.

Whilst its positive to see so many men on here expressing concerns around women's safety, I look around this site and see very few other threads on this topic. I hope all the energy from this discussion will continue and we'll see all those strongly opposed to the legislation continue to champion women's rights etc going forward.

We all know the concern for women safety is fake. Ironically, a lot of its fuelled by hatred of one woman in particular.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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We all know the concern for women safety is fake. Ironically, a lot of its fuelled by hatred of one woman in particular.


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If you said that to Joanna Cherry would you feel utterly daft?

I'm personally not concerned about full rape. But I asked my "woke" daughter her opinion and she said for example she would stop going to the gym if there was someone with a ***** getting changed in the females.

I've not asked any females about whether disabled women should have the choice to have biological female care, because who the f would disagree with that. Same goes with rape crisis actually, can't get my head round people being against female only situations

[James310]

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We all know the concern for women safety is fake. Ironically, a lot of its fuelled by hatred of one woman in particular.


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A wild sweeping arrogant statement. Is someone like Ash Regan SNP MSP not genuinely concerned about women's safety? She resigned her government post and very likely gave up her political career all because she hates Nicola Sturgeon? That makes no sense at all.

[He's here!]

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Is it on hold or is it just a case that people don’t really care that much about it as an issue and now that it’s done people have lost what little interest they had in the first place?


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That's clearly your personal hope, bearing in mind how often you've tried to dismiss debate by claiming nobody's interested in this issue. Right from the start of the thread you've repeated this assertion, yet the fact that a bunch of (almost exclusively) blokes on a football forum have stacked up more than 1,500 posts on what might appear an unlikely topic of discussion for them indicates otherwise. More obviously, the fact it's an issue which has garnered months of national/global interest and media coverage also rather negates your claim.

I get that because this story has often painted Sturgeon in a negative light you'd prefer to see it shut down, but there's a bigger picture here. A piece of legislation which will, in Scotland, render human biology meaningless is more than worthy of ongoing debate.

[He's here!]

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We all know the concern for women safety is fake. Ironically, a lot of its fuelled by hatred of one woman in particular.


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That's poor stuff - and wildly inaccurate. We've seen women lose their jobs and taken to court for daring to claim (correctly IMHO) that a person cannot change their biological sex. We've seen a Scottish government minister put her conscience first by resigning and a high profile SNP MP essentially disowned by her party for speaking her mind on women's rights. Would somebody like J K Rowling invite such a ****storm of abuse and fund a women-only rape crisis centre if she didn't passionately believe that women's (and, just as importantly, children's) rights have not been significantly diminished by this legislation? Sure, Sturgeon is in the line of fire here, but is it such a surprise that somebody who claims to be a 'feminist to her fingertips' has been portrayed as a 'destroyer of women's rights' when she's the one who has essentially driven this bill through?

[500miles]

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We all know the concern for women safety is fake. Ironically, a lot of its fuelled by hatred of one woman in particular.


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Pretty desperate attempt at " everyone who doesn't agree with me is a bigot".

[Ozyhibby]

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Pretty desperate attempt at " everyone who doesn't agree with me is a bigot".

Not everyone. Read what I wrote.


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[James310]

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Not everyone. Read what I wrote.


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You said "We all know the concern for women's safety is fake"

So you never meant that? What's your criteria for deciding if it's fake or genuine?

[Ozyhibby]

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You said "We all know the concern for women's safety is fake"

So you never meant that? What's your criteria for deciding if it's fake or genuine?

Sorry, I’ll retract. A lot of the concern for woman’s rights is fake.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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Sorry, I’ll retract. A lot of the concern for woman’s rights is fake.


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On this thread, or in the wider population?