The Trans Rights Debate

[ronaldo7]

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Think it would be bad for independence. Most people are against gra reforms, some deeply so. It won't gain many voters that are already won after supreme Court decision, much more likely to lose people

I was shocked to see those opposed to the GRR at parliament yesterday.

Some women are so deeply against the reforms they'll even show their merkin in public places.

High profile activists on both sides need to reign it in a bit.

[Mon Dieu4]

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You keep thinking this will disappear in a few days, it won't. This will have long term implications and will be high profile for some time yet.

Why would Sunak be daft to look at the Bill and consider it's implications for women's and girl's safety across the UK, that's his job isn't it? If the legislation is in conflict to existing legislation he can't just ignore it, the Scottish Parliament should understand the legislation it is passing and if it is legal or not. If it has passed illegal legislation that's the fault of the Scottish Parliament.

Let me guess though you think Sunak challenging it will only boost the case for Independence? I think we have been there before and it never does. Not forgetting of course many parts of the Bill were deeply unpopular with the general public and indeed a majority of SNP voters were against many of the more controversial changes so may actually welcome his challenge on some aspects of it.

I don't agree with everything in the bill but it passed a vote in the Scottish parliament wether I like it or not, Westminster vetoing it is just another sign that we arent allowed to make our own decisions and that reeks

[Stairway 2 7]

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I was shocked to see those opposed to the GRR at parliament yesterday.

Some women are so deeply against the reforms they'll even show their merkin in public places.

High profile activists on both sides need to reign it in a bit.

Clearly a weirdo. Like the woman who got her welt out on chanel 4 the other night playing piano

[James310]

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I don't agree with everything in the bill but it passed a vote in the Scottish parliament wether I like it or not, Westminster vetoing it is just another sign that we arent allowed to make our own decisions and that reeks

But if the Scottish Parliament passes legislation that is in conflict to existing UK Equalities Legislation would you expect the UK Government to just ignore it and do nothing?

Maybe before passing the legislation it might have been an idea to check?

[ronaldo7]

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But if the Scottish Parliament passes legislation that is in conflict to existing UK Equalities Legislation would you expect the UK Government to just ignore it and do nothing?

Maybe before passing the legislation it might have been an idea to check?

I suppose that's why so many amendments were refused or worked round.

I see the STUC welcomed the passing of the bill yesterday.

[CropleyWasGod]

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But if the Scottish Parliament passes legislation that is in conflict to existing UK Equalities Legislation would you expect the UK Government to just ignore it and do nothing?

Maybe before passing the legislation it might have been an idea to check?

Are you saying that they didn't?

[James310]

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Are you saying that they didn't?

Are you saying they did?

If parts of the new legislation are in reserved matters and there is concerns about women and girls safety then it will need reviewed.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Are you saying they did?

If parts of the new legislation are in reserved matters and there is concerns about women and girls safety then it will need reviewed.

Maybe you missed the amendment passed last week, with cross-party support, agreeing that none of the GRA supersedes the EA.

[archie]

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Maybe you missed the amendment passed last week, with cross-party support, that none of the GRA supersedes the EA.

Need to see if that actually works, given other parts of the Bill.

[Ozyhibby]

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Need to see if that actually works, given other parts of the Bill.

Which other parts?


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[James310]

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Maybe you missed the amendment passed last week, with cross-party support, that none of the GRA supersedes the EA.

That's doesn't make it true. As per my previous post, maybe you missed it.

https://twitter.com/Scott_Wortley/st...kLQPyHFhg&s=19

[CropleyWasGod]

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That's doesn't make it true. As per my previous post, maybe you missed it.

https://twitter.com/Scott_Wortley/st...kLQPyHFhg&s=19

Okay, since I'm not a lawyer, I'll bow out

[archie]

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Which other parts?


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There's a live discussion as to whether simply putting in the clause that it doesn't supercede the EA actually achieves the aim.

[archie]

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Okay, since I'm not a lawyer, I'll bow out

I suspect lawyers and non-lawyers will be scratching their heads.

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour msp Claire Baker has lost her spokesperson role on drugs policy, for defying the whip for grr. Michael Marra was allowed to skip the vote to save his front bench slot

https://mobile.twitter.com/ginadavid...08380641005568

[Ozyhibby]

Labour now saying they are going to do the same in England.


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[He's here!]

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Don't think so.

https://www.blmsolicitors.co.uk/2021...an-rape-a-man/


"I must admit that I am not really sure if this counts as a ‘legal curiosity’ but in the UK a woman cannot rape a man, or another woman, as a matter of law. That is because of the terms in which the Sexual Offences Act 2003 defines the act of rape. Essentially women don’t have the necessary ‘bits’ to commit the offence! Put more pompously, the 2003 Act makes penile penetration the main element of the offence. Legal academics describe this approach as being ‘phallo-centric’, because only biological men can commit the offence, in law, whether their victims be male or female."

I just wonder how the offence would be recorded if the person has a GRC saying they are female.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/police-scotland-launch-review-of-policy-which-lets-male-rapists-identify-as-wome/

[He's here!]

Previously flagged up on here a few weeks back but his is looking like a prescient piece:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...almost-everone

[Ozyhibby]

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Previously flagged up on here a few weeks back but his is looking like a prescient piece:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...almost-everone

Yes I can see that. Everyone is going to believe that the Tories are all about women’s rights. Def going to happen.


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[He's here!]

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Labour msp Claire Baker has lost her spokesperson role on drugs policy, for defying the whip for grr. Michael Marra was allowed to skip the vote to save his front bench slot

https://mobile.twitter.com/ginadavid...08380641005568

Shame more of her colleagues didn't show the courage of their convictions. That's weasly stuff if true about Marra.

[He's here!]

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Yes I can see that. Everyone is going to believe that the Tories are all about women’s rights. Def going to happen.


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You need to read beyond the headline. She's not hailing them as women's rights champions (though we have had 3 female Tory leaders/PMs to Labour's none), she's outlining where the SG's flawed legislation could lead.

[Bristolhibby]

An excellent and compassionate pice from Owen Jones.

Trans people are just the “gays” of 30 years ago.

“The Gender Recognition Reform Bill has passed the Scottish Parliament by 86 to 39.

This is a piece of legislation which will make the lives of trans people - one of the most marginalised minorities in society - a little bit easier.

Bravo to the 86.

The politicians who were the most outspoken, eloquent and determined in supporting the Gender Recognition Reform Bill were women.

Those women have been vilified, hounded, demonised and abused.

It's important to state this given the anti-trans movement claim to speak for women.

For several years, British society has been in the grip of an escalating anti-trans moral panic, whipped up by an increasingly radicalised anti-trans movement, and facilitated by a media industry which has never found a minority it won't hound.

In a long honoured tradition, too, politicians - mostly, but not exclusively on the Conservative benches - have sought to weaponise hostility against trans people to build their own careers, just as they've done with migrants, refugees, Muslims, gays - the list is endless.

The reality of life for trans people has been erased from this sordid so-called "debate".

That trans people are abused, bullied and attacked on our streets, in our workplaces, in schools, is ignored.

That many fear something as basic as using a public toilet: ignored.

That trans people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual violence than perpetrators is erased because of systematic and disgusting attempt to equate 'trans' and 'sexual predator' in the public domain.

That trans people suffer years waiting for gender affirming healthcare is erased, because the increasingly unhinged anti-trans movement has sought to deceive the public across the land that kids are having affirming surgery, spoken of in as lurid terms as possible.

We've been here before.

Gay and bi people were long portrayed as would-be sexual predators, threats to and brainwashers of children, defiers of the laws of biology, defined by mental illness, forcing the majority to kowtow to the whims of a tiny minority, and so on.

If you read the Parliamentary debates around, say, the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality, or the equalisation of the age of consent, you will find lots of inflammatory declarations, vile bigotry, cruelty - and gruesome predictions which never came to pass.

The same applies today.

The anti-trans movement are the inheritors of the torch of the anti-gay movement, who also spoken in terms of 'legitimate concerns', rejected claims of bigotry, even sometimes spoke of compassion and love towards gay people whose rights they denied.

The fact there are some lesbian, gay and bisexual people who now behave exactly the same as our tormentors behaved towards us is shameful - but, thankfully, our LGBTQ communities are overwhelmingly supportive of trans rights and will keep standing by our trans siblings.

The law passed in Scotland has been passed in 13 other countries.

As Kezia Dugdale noted: "The populations of these countries total 350 million people. That is one hell of a data set from which to find a pattern of the law being abused by predatory men."

If the horrifying predictions made by the anti-trans movement come to pass, then why aren't we inundated with case studies from those 13 countries?

The reason? Because this is just baseless scaremongering about a tiny besieged minority.

The anti-trans movement may say they really really do think that trans rights is a threat to women's rights, but the anti-gay movement really really did think that the gay rights movement was a threat to children.

Their sincerity was not an excuse.

One day - like those who once fought gay rights ate their words - opponents of trans rights will admit they got it wrong.

They will cry at the sad films and plays about this time.

But don't forget those trans people and their allies who fought when it was hard to do so.

The anti-trans movement has become a cesspit of hate and bigotry, and their facilitators in the media should be ashamed of themselves.

All they've achieved is to make the lives of trans people a bit harder. That's it! Literally no other accomplishment!

The question isn't whether trans people will one day achieve true acceptance - they will.

The question is "how much pointless avoidable hurt and pain will be inflicted along the way".

The anti-trans movement have an answer to this: A lot.

The main reason for the bitterness and anger driving the anti-trans movement is they know they are going to lose, and - however much this winds them up - history will damn them.

Countries will keep passing these laws - Spain has also passed one today.

The younger the age bracket, the more supportive of trans rights.

The fate of the anti-trans movement is straightforward: you will become increasing objects of contempt, scorn, derision.

You will lose, and you will be condemned forever. You have nothing else to look forward to.

But in the meantime, trans people will still be abused in our streets, menaced with violence, deprived of much-needed healthcare, targeted by the media and politicians.

So we all have a responsibility to stand by our trans siblings.

Trans rights - forever! 🏳️*⚧️🏳️*🌈”

[Stairway 2 7]

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An excellent and compassionate pice from Owen Jones.

Trans people are just the “gays” of 30 years ago.

“The Gender Recognition Reform Bill has passed the Scottish Parliament by 86 to 39.

This is a piece of legislation which will make the lives of trans people - one of the most marginalised minorities in society - a little bit easier.

Bravo to the 86.

The politicians who were the most outspoken, eloquent and determined in supporting the Gender Recognition Reform Bill were women.

Those women have been vilified, hounded, demonised and abused.

It's important to state this given the anti-trans movement claim to speak for women.

For several years, British society has been in the grip of an escalating anti-trans moral panic, whipped up by an increasingly radicalised anti-trans movement, and facilitated by a media industry which has never found a minority it won't hound.

In a long honoured tradition, too, politicians - mostly, but not exclusively on the Conservative benches - have sought to weaponise hostility against trans people to build their own careers, just as they've done with migrants, refugees, Muslims, gays - the list is endless.

The reality of life for trans people has been erased from this sordid so-called "debate".

That trans people are abused, bullied and attacked on our streets, in our workplaces, in schools, is ignored.

That many fear something as basic as using a public toilet: ignored.

That trans people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual violence than perpetrators is erased because of systematic and disgusting attempt to equate 'trans' and 'sexual predator' in the public domain.

That trans people suffer years waiting for gender affirming healthcare is erased, because the increasingly unhinged anti-trans movement has sought to deceive the public across the land that kids are having affirming surgery, spoken of in as lurid terms as possible.

We've been here before.

Gay and bi people were long portrayed as would-be sexual predators, threats to and brainwashers of children, defiers of the laws of biology, defined by mental illness, forcing the majority to kowtow to the whims of a tiny minority, and so on.

If you read the Parliamentary debates around, say, the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality, or the equalisation of the age of consent, you will find lots of inflammatory declarations, vile bigotry, cruelty - and gruesome predictions which never came to pass.

The same applies today.

The anti-trans movement are the inheritors of the torch of the anti-gay movement, who also spoken in terms of 'legitimate concerns', rejected claims of bigotry, even sometimes spoke of compassion and love towards gay people whose rights they denied.

The fact there are some lesbian, gay and bisexual people who now behave exactly the same as our tormentors behaved towards us is shameful - but, thankfully, our LGBTQ communities are overwhelmingly supportive of trans rights and will keep standing by our trans siblings.

The law passed in Scotland has been passed in 13 other countries.

As Kezia Dugdale noted: "The populations of these countries total 350 million people. That is one hell of a data set from which to find a pattern of the law being abused by predatory men."

If the horrifying predictions made by the anti-trans movement come to pass, then why aren't we inundated with case studies from those 13 countries?

The reason? Because this is just baseless scaremongering about a tiny besieged minority.

The anti-trans movement may say they really really do think that trans rights is a threat to women's rights, but the anti-gay movement really really did think that the gay rights movement was a threat to children.

Their sincerity was not an excuse.

One day - like those who once fought gay rights ate their words - opponents of trans rights will admit they got it wrong.

They will cry at the sad films and plays about this time.

But don't forget those trans people and their allies who fought when it was hard to do so.

The anti-trans movement has become a cesspit of hate and bigotry, and their facilitators in the media should be ashamed of themselves.

All they've achieved is to make the lives of trans people a bit harder. That's it! Literally no other accomplishment!

The question isn't whether trans people will one day achieve true acceptance - they will.

The question is "how much pointless avoidable hurt and pain will be inflicted along the way".

The anti-trans movement have an answer to this: A lot.

The main reason for the bitterness and anger driving the anti-trans movement is they know they are going to lose, and - however much this winds them up - history will damn them.

Countries will keep passing these laws - Spain has also passed one today.

The younger the age bracket, the more supportive of trans rights.

The fate of the anti-trans movement is straightforward: you will become increasing objects of contempt, scorn, derision.

You will lose, and you will be condemned forever. You have nothing else to look forward to.

But in the meantime, trans people will still be abused in our streets, menaced with violence, deprived of much-needed healthcare, targeted by the media and politicians.

So we all have a responsibility to stand by our trans siblings.

Trans rights - forever! 🏳️*⚧️🏳️*🌈”

It's been up in full before. Calling people who are concerned about women's and disabled rights is anti trans is a lot of pish. Everybody wants more protection and rights for trans but they want some caveats that don't push back on hard fought rights of women.

Calling people like joanna cherry who has been fighting gay rights for decades, the same as homophobes of decades past is hilarious

[He's here!]

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An excellent and compassionate pice from Owen Jones.

Trans people are just the “gays” of 30 years ago.

“The Gender Recognition Reform Bill has passed the Scottish Parliament by 86 to 39.

This is a piece of legislation which will make the lives of trans people - one of the most marginalised minorities in society - a little bit easier.

Bravo to the 86.

The politicians who were the most outspoken, eloquent and determined in supporting the Gender Recognition Reform Bill were women.

Those women have been vilified, hounded, demonised and abused.

It's important to state this given the anti-trans movement claim to speak for women.

For several years, British society has been in the grip of an escalating anti-trans moral panic, whipped up by an increasingly radicalised anti-trans movement, and facilitated by a media industry which has never found a minority it won't hound.

In a long honoured tradition, too, politicians - mostly, but not exclusively on the Conservative benches - have sought to weaponise hostility against trans people to build their own careers, just as they've done with migrants, refugees, Muslims, gays - the list is endless.

The reality of life for trans people has been erased from this sordid so-called "debate".

That trans people are abused, bullied and attacked on our streets, in our workplaces, in schools, is ignored.

That many fear something as basic as using a public toilet: ignored.

That trans people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual violence than perpetrators is erased because of systematic and disgusting attempt to equate 'trans' and 'sexual predator' in the public domain.

That trans people suffer years waiting for gender affirming healthcare is erased, because the increasingly unhinged anti-trans movement has sought to deceive the public across the land that kids are having affirming surgery, spoken of in as lurid terms as possible.

We've been here before.

Gay and bi people were long portrayed as would-be sexual predators, threats to and brainwashers of children, defiers of the laws of biology, defined by mental illness, forcing the majority to kowtow to the whims of a tiny minority, and so on.

If you read the Parliamentary debates around, say, the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality, or the equalisation of the age of consent, you will find lots of inflammatory declarations, vile bigotry, cruelty - and gruesome predictions which never came to pass.

The same applies today.

The anti-trans movement are the inheritors of the torch of the anti-gay movement, who also spoken in terms of 'legitimate concerns', rejected claims of bigotry, even sometimes spoke of compassion and love towards gay people whose rights they denied.

The fact there are some lesbian, gay and bisexual people who now behave exactly the same as our tormentors behaved towards us is shameful - but, thankfully, our LGBTQ communities are overwhelmingly supportive of trans rights and will keep standing by our trans siblings.

The law passed in Scotland has been passed in 13 other countries.

As Kezia Dugdale noted: "The populations of these countries total 350 million people. That is one hell of a data set from which to find a pattern of the law being abused by predatory men."

If the horrifying predictions made by the anti-trans movement come to pass, then why aren't we inundated with case studies from those 13 countries?

The reason? Because this is just baseless scaremongering about a tiny besieged minority.

The anti-trans movement may say they really really do think that trans rights is a threat to women's rights, but the anti-gay movement really really did think that the gay rights movement was a threat to children.

Their sincerity was not an excuse.

One day - like those who once fought gay rights ate their words - opponents of trans rights will admit they got it wrong.

They will cry at the sad films and plays about this time.

But don't forget those trans people and their allies who fought when it was hard to do so.

The anti-trans movement has become a cesspit of hate and bigotry, and their facilitators in the media should be ashamed of themselves.

All they've achieved is to make the lives of trans people a bit harder. That's it! Literally no other accomplishment!

The question isn't whether trans people will one day achieve true acceptance - they will.

The question is "how much pointless avoidable hurt and pain will be inflicted along the way".

The anti-trans movement have an answer to this: A lot.

The main reason for the bitterness and anger driving the anti-trans movement is they know they are going to lose, and - however much this winds them up - history will damn them.

Countries will keep passing these laws - Spain has also passed one today.

The younger the age bracket, the more supportive of trans rights.

The fate of the anti-trans movement is straightforward: you will become increasing objects of contempt, scorn, derision.

You will lose, and you will be condemned forever. You have nothing else to look forward to.

But in the meantime, trans people will still be abused in our streets, menaced with violence, deprived of much-needed healthcare, targeted by the media and politicians.

So we all have a responsibility to stand by our trans siblings.

Trans rights - forever! 🏳️*⚧️🏳️*🌈”

Already been posted and it remains as wide of the nark as it was then.

[hibby rae]

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An excellent and compassionate pice from Owen Jones.

Trans people are just the “gays” of 30 years ago.

“The Gender Recognition Reform Bill has passed the Scottish Parliament by 86 to 39.

This is a piece of legislation which will make the lives of trans people - one of the most marginalised minorities in society - a little bit easier.

Bravo to the 86.

The politicians who were the most outspoken, eloquent and determined in supporting the Gender Recognition Reform Bill were women.

Those women have been vilified, hounded, demonised and abused.

It's important to state this given the anti-trans movement claim to speak for women.

For several years, British society has been in the grip of an escalating anti-trans moral panic, whipped up by an increasingly radicalised anti-trans movement, and facilitated by a media industry which has never found a minority it won't hound.

In a long honoured tradition, too, politicians - mostly, but not exclusively on the Conservative benches - have sought to weaponise hostility against trans people to build their own careers, just as they've done with migrants, refugees, Muslims, gays - the list is endless.

The reality of life for trans people has been erased from this sordid so-called "debate".

That trans people are abused, bullied and attacked on our streets, in our workplaces, in schools, is ignored.

That many fear something as basic as using a public toilet: ignored.

That trans people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual violence than perpetrators is erased because of systematic and disgusting attempt to equate 'trans' and 'sexual predator' in the public domain.

That trans people suffer years waiting for gender affirming healthcare is erased, because the increasingly unhinged anti-trans movement has sought to deceive the public across the land that kids are having affirming surgery, spoken of in as lurid terms as possible.

We've been here before.

Gay and bi people were long portrayed as would-be sexual predators, threats to and brainwashers of children, defiers of the laws of biology, defined by mental illness, forcing the majority to kowtow to the whims of a tiny minority, and so on.

If you read the Parliamentary debates around, say, the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality, or the equalisation of the age of consent, you will find lots of inflammatory declarations, vile bigotry, cruelty - and gruesome predictions which never came to pass.

The same applies today.

The anti-trans movement are the inheritors of the torch of the anti-gay movement, who also spoken in terms of 'legitimate concerns', rejected claims of bigotry, even sometimes spoke of compassion and love towards gay people whose rights they denied.

The fact there are some lesbian, gay and bisexual people who now behave exactly the same as our tormentors behaved towards us is shameful - but, thankfully, our LGBTQ communities are overwhelmingly supportive of trans rights and will keep standing by our trans siblings.

The law passed in Scotland has been passed in 13 other countries.

As Kezia Dugdale noted: "The populations of these countries total 350 million people. That is one hell of a data set from which to find a pattern of the law being abused by predatory men."

If the horrifying predictions made by the anti-trans movement come to pass, then why aren't we inundated with case studies from those 13 countries?

The reason? Because this is just baseless scaremongering about a tiny besieged minority.

The anti-trans movement may say they really really do think that trans rights is a threat to women's rights, but the anti-gay movement really really did think that the gay rights movement was a threat to children.

Their sincerity was not an excuse.

One day - like those who once fought gay rights ate their words - opponents of trans rights will admit they got it wrong.

They will cry at the sad films and plays about this time.

But don't forget those trans people and their allies who fought when it was hard to do so.

The anti-trans movement has become a cesspit of hate and bigotry, and their facilitators in the media should be ashamed of themselves.

All they've achieved is to make the lives of trans people a bit harder. That's it! Literally no other accomplishment!

The question isn't whether trans people will one day achieve true acceptance - they will.

The question is "how much pointless avoidable hurt and pain will be inflicted along the way".

The anti-trans movement have an answer to this: A lot.

The main reason for the bitterness and anger driving the anti-trans movement is they know they are going to lose, and - however much this winds them up - history will damn them.

Countries will keep passing these laws - Spain has also passed one today.

The younger the age bracket, the more supportive of trans rights.

The fate of the anti-trans movement is straightforward: you will become increasing objects of contempt, scorn, derision.

You will lose, and you will be condemned forever. You have nothing else to look forward to.

But in the meantime, trans people will still be abused in our streets, menaced with violence, deprived of much-needed healthcare, targeted by the media and politicians.

So we all have a responsibility to stand by our trans siblings.

Trans rights - forever! 🏳️*⚧️🏳️*🌈”

💯💯💚💚💚💚🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[Ozyhibby]

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[Bristolhibby]

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Already been posted and it remains as wide of the nark as it was then.

How so?

Gist of it for me is that we don’t get trans women raping women in changing rooms. That’s just a dog whistle trope.

Trans people are much more likely to suffer violent assaults and this legislation is just the way of the progressive world. We will all look back in 30 years time and go WTF was all the fuss about?

Sorry, I missed it before. Miss a few pages here on this thread and you’re goosed.

J

[Stairway 2 7]

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How so?

Gist of it for me is that we don’t get trans women raping women in changing rooms. That’s just a dog whistle trope.

Trans people are much more likely to suffer violent assaults and this legislation is just the way of the progressive world. We will all look back in 30 years time and go WTF was all the fuss about?

Sorry, I missed it before. Miss a few pages here on this thread and you’re goosed.

J

If you skip pages you'll 50 other reasons why it's much more than just about rape and sexual assault.

[500miles]

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Bad topic for the SNP to use to highlight an otherwise arguable point. These reforms were brought in despite a lack of general public support.

[hibby rae]

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How so?

Gist of it for me is that we don’t get trans women raping women in changing rooms. That’s just a dog whistle trope.

Trans people are much more likely to suffer violent assaults and this legislation is just the way of the progressive world. We will all look back in 30 years time and go WTF was all the fuss about?

Sorry, I missed it before. Miss a few pages here on this thread and you’re goosed.

J

No harm in posting it again, the more who get to read it the better!