The Trans Rights Debate

[archie]

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Don’t think there are any votes until tomorrow?


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The amendment to protect women was defeated.

[Ozyhibby]

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The amendment to protect women was defeated.

Is that what it was called?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/s...8L1KctnVcE8kLg

Sounds like it’s had cross party support.


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[archie]

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https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/s...8L1KctnVcE8kLg

Sounds like it’s had cross party support.


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And?

[Ozyhibby]

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And?

Just sharing info.


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[He's here!]

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Eh? They are voting on amendments about every 10 minutes now.

I can ask again, why do you think the rights of sex offenders should be prioritised over the rights of women? Is it funny?

Very tight on some of the main proposals. Tighter than I expected and it would have been interesting to see how many more SNP MSPs went against the party had they not been whipped. Poor not to have allowed a free vote on an issue like this which transcends party politics.

That's poor to see the amendment re sex offenders narrowly voted down. Unclear what the Lib Dems feel they have to gain by aligning with the government on that one.

[He's here!]

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I think they are pretty much ignored in Ireland these days as well.


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Again, missing the point.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Very tight on some of the main proposals. Tighter than I expected and it would have been interesting to see how many more SNP MSPs went against the party had they not been whipped. Poor not to have allowed a free vote on an issue like this which transcends party politics.

That's poor to see the amendment re sex offenders narrowly voted down. Unclear what the Lib Dems feel they have to gain by aligning with the government on that one.

Maybe they just think it's right

[Stairway 2 7]

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I'm similar. Living in a country where you regularly have mixed toilets, showers and saunas as well as Doctors and Nurses of both sex and probably all variants along the gender/sex spectrum, it's difficult for me to understand what all the fuss is about. I think the likelihood of some perve getting a sex change or identifying as a woman just to oggle at naked women is very unlikely and what's to stop them just doing it anyway?

It just all feels so Victorian.

Disabled woman choosing not to have intimate care by biological males, rape victims having support of only biological females, domestic or sexual abuse victims having biological female only shelters. These aren't Victorian or frivolous. Just because they don't affect you or many men saying what should happen, doesn't make it less serious.

[James310]

BBC saying the debate could go on until 0230, anyone still think it's not being rushed through Parliament....even at the height of Covid which was the biggest crisis in our lifetime Parliament never sat like this.

It reminds me of Named Person legislation, eventually found to be illegal and scrapped at a cost of millions.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Disabled woman choosing not to have intimate care by biological males, rape victims having support of only biological females, domestic or sexual abuse victims having biological female only shelters. These aren't Victorian or frivolous. Just because they don't affect you or many men saying what should happen, doesn't make it less serious.

Didn't we have people with similar concerns regarding black people 40-50 years ago? If someone is qualified to do a job then racial, sexual or religious prejudice shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against them.

Like I said, I'm still on the fence with this one but as always education will be the key.

[archie]

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Didn't we have people with similar concerns regarding black people 40-50 years ago? If someone is qualified to do a job then racial, sexual or religious prejudice shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against them.

Like I said, I'm still on the fence with this one but as always education will be the key.

No we really didn't. Education is the key? Education for whom?

[He's here!]

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Didn't we have people with similar concerns regarding black people 40-50 years ago? If someone is qualified to do a job then racial, sexual or religious prejudice shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against them.

Like I said, I'm still on the fence with this one but as always education will be the key.

For a woman to request (for example) that they have a cervical smear test carried out by a female doctor bears no relation to discriminating against a doctor on racial or religious grounds. For any woman that's a wholly reasonable request. For a woman who has suffered abuse at the hands of a man it's unthinkable that they should have to submit to such an intimate examination by a biological male. That's just one example of the fundamental changes women will have to accept once this significantly flawed legislation is passed.

Judging by some of the indifferent responses on here (not specifically yours I should add), I increasingly think the UN rapporteur who last night told Holyrood that policymakers with no direct experience of male on female violence cannot grasp the fear some women feel simply sharing a room with men was right.

[Hibrandenburg]

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No we really didn't. Education is the key? Education for whom?

Education that not all trans people are sex monsters just like not all black people are criminals or all gay people are child abusers. We've been here before but thankfully education has helped to eradicate unjustified fears.

[James310]

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Didn't we have people with similar concerns regarding black people 40-50 years ago? If someone is qualified to do a job then racial, sexual or religious prejudice shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against them.

Like I said, I'm still on the fence with this one but as always education will be the key.

Educate women who have concerns they shouldn't have concerns?

[Hibrandenburg]

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For a woman to request (for example) that they have a cervical smear test carried out by a female doctor bears no relation to discriminating against a doctor on racial or religious grounds. For any woman that's a wholly reasonable request. For a woman who has suffered abuse at the hands of a man it's unthinkable that they should have to submit to such an intimate examination by a biological male. That's just one example of the fundamental changes women will have to accept once this significantly flawed legislation is passed.

Judging by some of the indifferent responses on here (not specifically yours I should add), I increasingly think the UN rapporteur who last night told Holyrood that policymakers with no direct experience of male on female violence cannot grasp the fear some women feel simply sharing a room with men was right.

We've been through this with Irish, gays, blacks and any number of minorities. Why do you think prejudice against trans people is different and acceptable?

[James310]

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Education that not all trans people are sex monsters just like not all black people are criminals or all gay people are child abusers. We've been here before but thankfully education has helped to eradicate unjustified fears.

How is a disabled lady who wants a female to give her intimate care accusing a trans person of being a sex monster?

[archie]

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Education that not all trans people are sex monsters just like not all black people are criminals or all gay people are child abusers. We've been here before but thankfully education has helped to eradicate unjustified fears.

OK but why would you not support an amendment that specifically excluded sex offenders from the terms of the legislation?

[Hibrandenburg]

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How is a disabled lady who wants a female to give her intimate care accusing a trans person of being a sex monster?

What does a disabled lady have to fear from a trans person?

[James310]

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What does a disabled lady have to fear from a trans person?

You don't think she has a right to have a biological female to give her intimate care, especially if she has been abused by a man in the past? Or should she just get on with it?

[Hibrandenburg]

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OK but why would you not support an amendment that specifically excluded sex offenders from the terms of the legislation?

Would a trans person on the sex offenders list be allowed to do a job that involves intimate contact with patients or vulnerable people?

[Hibrandenburg]

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You don't think she has a right to have a biological female to give her intimate care, especially if she has been abused by a man in the past? Or should she just get on with it?

Should someone who was robbed by a black person be allowed to discriminate against all black people.

Like I say, I'm split between both sides of the debate, but that's because there's strong arguments on both sides.

[archie]

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What does a disabled lady have to fear from a trans person?

Ask this disabled woman https://twitter.com/hen10freeman/sta...22204467351556

[James310]

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Ask this disabled woman https://twitter.com/hen10freeman/sta...22204467351556

Powerful stuff, how anyone could read that and still think there isn't a problem is beyond me.

[archie]

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Should someone who was robbed by a black person be allowed to discriminate against all black people.

Like I say, I'm split between both sides of the debate, but that's because there's strong arguments on both sides.

No. But nor should I as a white person be allowed to say I'm black just because I feel that I am.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Ask this disabled woman https://twitter.com/hen10freeman/sta...22204467351556

What about patients not wanting black people touch them, is that a valid concern? Should all gynecologists be female, should all urologists be male or should people be given a choice rather than simply allowing prejudice to win the day. I'm sure the lady in your example wouldn't have a trans person forced upon her, medical professionals are sensible enough to take individuals circumstances into account when providing treatment.

[Ozyhibby]

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No. But nor should I as a white person be allowed to say I'm black just because I feel that I am.

Ah, so your against the whole idea? That doesn’t really change with the legislation?


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[Hibrandenburg]

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No. But nor should I as a white person be allowed to say I'm black just because I feel that I am.

That makes no sense, the gender spectrum is not just black and white, there's lots in-between. A better example would be can a person born to different coloured parents decide if they're black, white or something in-between.

[archie]

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What about patients not wanting black people touch them, is that a valid concern? Should all gynecologists be female, should all urologists be male or should people be given a choice rather than simply allowing prejudice to win the day. I'm sure the lady in your example wouldn't have a trans person forced upon her, medical professionals are sensible enough to take individuals circumstances into account when providing treatment.

Don't be so sure. We already have guidance that if a woman objects to a trans identifying male is in a female ward the line is there are no men in the ward. In addition, it will be a criminal offence to reveal if someone has a GRC. So there can be no discretion in the manner you suggest.

[archie]

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That makes no sense, the gender spectrum is not just black and white, there's lots in-between. A better example would be can a person born to different coloured parents decide if they're black, white or something in-between.

Why does it make no sense? f I can identify as anywhere on the 'gender spectrum' then why can't I identify on a racial spectrum?