The Trans Rights Debate

[James310]

Kenny Gibson talking well there is not something I thought I would ever say.

[James310]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Opposition is split between the principled and those gleefully seeking an anti-Indy wedge issue. Pretty clear we're getting both on this thread as well as in the parliament.

You think emergency evidence sessions with the UN the night before the vote and debates going on until midnight is the sign of a Bill going through normal parliamentary process?

[James310]

Clearly quite a few MSPs from all parties have concerns about allowing 16 and 17 year olds to get a GRC and potentially starting transition. Under the UN anyone under 18 is a child so I understand the concerns.

[He's here!]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yes, the whole thing is rushed right enough. Isn’t this one of the most consulted bits of legislation brought before Holyrood? Think the rushed accusation just doesn’t stack up against the facts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As already discussed on here the controversy around the consultation process was how heavily weighted it was in favour of government-funded lobby groups who are passionately in favour of these reforms, while IIRC feminist groups who oppose the legislation were denied a voice.

[He's here!]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Opposition is split between the principled and those gleefully seeking an anti-Indy wedge issue. Pretty clear we're getting both on this thread as well as in the parliament.

That might be the case at Holyrood where the Tories (who have nevertheless allowed a free vote I think?) will be keen to upset the applecart, but I think it would be unfair to suggest that the majority of opposition to this legislation is anything but heartfelt. I remain baffled by Sturgeon's intransigence on an issue which will impact so significantly on women's rights, while any parent should be apprehensive about its potential impact on children as young as 16. Sturgeon's personal life is obviously hers alone but I do sometimes wonder if she might be a little less inflexible on this had she had children of her own.

No amount of suggested amendments will derail this bill because a majority of Labour MSPs will help it pass. However, I think the real battle lines will be drawn only after it passes into law. Now is the time for sensible compromise on a piece of legislation which in parts is simply wrong. The compromises suggested in the Observer editorial posted a couple of days ago are very much in line with what I feel is required.

[archie]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Opposition is split between the principled and those gleefully seeking an anti-Indy wedge issue. Pretty clear we're getting both on this thread as well as in the parliament.

I think this is an issue that doesn't really split down constitutional lines. Tories opposed, Lab and SNP ostensibly for , but fissures in the parties about the issue. Greens totally for and, I think, the Lib Dems are. That's not to say that parties don't see political opportunities. But is that so surprising? Fundamentally, the legislation is a mess, starting with the definitional issues.

[superfurryhibby]

It's time for SNP MSP's to take a principled stand and vote against this bill. Sturgeon and Murrell need a rocket right up them, they're so utterly entrenched that they think they are untouchable. It will be a huge mistake to pass this bill and will count against them in the future.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That might be the case at Holyrood where the Tories (who have nevertheless allowed a free vote I think?) will be keen to upset the applecart, but I think it would be unfair to suggest that the majority of opposition to this legislation is anything but heartfelt. I remain baffled by Sturgeon's intransigence on an issue which will impact so significantly on women's rights, while any parent should be apprehensive about its potential impact on children as young as 16. Sturgeon's personal life is obviously hers alone but I do sometimes wonder if she might be a little less inflexible on this had she had children of her own.

No amount of suggested amendments will derail this bill because a majority of Labour MSPs will help it pass. However, I think the real battle lines will be drawn only after it passes into law. Now is the time for sensible compromise on a piece of legislation which in parts is simply wrong. The compromises suggested in the Observer editorial posted a couple of days ago are very much in line with what I feel is required.

Personally I think it will pass and then be forgotten about. There will be the odd story hear and there regarding some prisoner changing gender etc much the same as in Ireland but that will be it.
Unless you think Scottish people are significantly different from Irish then there is no reason to suspect there will be a different outcome from their experience. In 7 years it’s barely caused a ripple in Irish society. It will be the same here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Unless you think Scottish people are significantly different from Irish then there is no reason to suspect there will be a different outcome from their experience. In 7 years it’s barely caused a ripple in Irish society. It will be the same here.

Scotsmen do tend to wear skirts more than their Irish counterparts, maybe that explains their concern.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Personally I think it will pass and then be forgotten about. There will be the odd story hear and there regarding some prisoner changing gender etc much the same as in Ireland but that will be it.
Unless you think Scottish people are significantly different from Irish then there is no reason to suspect there will be a different outcome from their experience. In 7 years it’s barely caused a ripple in Irish society. It will be the same here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But your definition of a problem is something quantifiable like rape. Imo opinion that's shocking. Females who don't want male bodied care won't be in any statistic, but don't matter to you. Women who don't want a ***** next to them when changing at the gym don't matter to you, also will be no statistics for this ect ect. Women's opinions and fears don't matter anymore

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

But your definition of a problem is something quantifiable like rape. Imo opinion that's shocking. Females who don't want male bodied care won't be in any statistic, but don't matter to you. Women who don't want a ***** next to them when changing at the gym don't matter to you, also will be no statistics for this ect ect. Women's opinions and fears don't matter anymore

Surely Irish women would be kicking up about this if it was happening? Is it happening in Ireland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[McD]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Away from the actual issue and going off on a political tangent for a second, it seems the Tories are desperate to try and force the resignation (or not) of Kate Forbes.



Aiui, if it goes to January, she can't avoid the vote by being on maternity leave.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Of course that's one side of the coin, the other side is the SNP are railroading this through before Xmas to avoid having to sack Kate Forbes. But all about women's rights and not having to sack a front bench minister. Shocked.

Even a quick listen shows the legislation is flawed. Basic definitions are missing.

sorry if I’ve missed this, what’s the situation with Kate Forbes? Why would she be sacked/resign?

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Surely Irish women would be kicking up about this if it was happening? Is it happening in Ireland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who is going to run an unquantifiable article. What I do know is here in Scotland a woman with no feeling bellow her neck, says her life will be in terror knowing a biological male will now be able to touch her. You basically said her fears and opinions are null. Women's opinions are being quietened. Men who it won't affect telling them their opinions and fears don't matter is poor

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

sorry if I’ve missed this, what’s the situation with Kate Forbes? Why would she be sacked/resign?

Snp are whipping it rather than giving mps a free vote

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

sorry if I’ve missed this, what’s the situation with Kate Forbes? Why would she be sacked/resign?

Because if she votes on this according to her principles she will have to resign. Principles tend to get parked though when ministerial salaries are on the line.

[Stairway 2 7]

Sex offenders rights looked after. Gallery has to be cleared as women shout shame on yous

Russell Findlays amendment to deny sex offenders a GRC is defeated 59 votes to 64

[He's here!]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Personally I think it will pass and then be forgotten about. There will be the odd story hear and there regarding some prisoner changing gender etc much the same as in Ireland but that will be it.
Unless you think Scottish people are significantly different from Irish then there is no reason to suspect there will be a different outcome from their experience. In 7 years it’s barely caused a ripple in Irish society. It will be the same here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure the Irish situation is directly comparable and it's certainly not true that the reforms there have caused barely a ripple. As Ash Regan pointed out last week the legislation there (and I think in Norway) was kind of piggy-backed through on the back of more popular measures (eg marriage law reform) with little in the way of public debate. She also alluded to recent polling in Ireland which shows less than 20% public support for the measures implemented. I note also that the Catholic Church have today opposed the Scottish government legislation, citing dissatisfaction with the impact it has had on women's rights in Ireland.

And this is most certainly about women's rights as much as women's safety. Even today I think it's true to say that women as a sex are discriminated against in society and this legislation will make 'women' into a kind of mixed-sex category - something that will put barriers in place when it comes to furthering the cause of women's rights. It will also make it harder for women to access female-only services and spaces, including hospital wards and intimate care as providers will be unable to grant such requests. That has got to be wrong surely - especially as trans people already have the right to access gender-neutral spaces and specialist services. It's removing women's rights to privacy and dignity - not to mention removal of safeguarding - and it can't surely have come as a surprise to Sturgeon to see that public opposition to such measures is over 60%. Shrugging this off by simply saying it seems to have been OK in Ireland doesn't really cut it when it comes to addressing such valid concerns for women (concerns that men don't have to deal with).

[Skol]

As a male this has no direct impact on me. However although I respect trans rights, I also respect woman’s rights and it strikes me that you cannot meet both without one or other being impacted.

I canvassed the opinion of my wife and daughter who had no reason to object which surprised me.

I do still feel the current approach is wrong and some of the areas of concern could be tightened up to try and strike a balance.

[He's here!]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Sex offenders rights looked after. Gallery has to be cleared as women shout shame on yous

Russell Findlays amendment to deny sex offenders a GRC is defeated 59 votes to 64

‘Shame on you’: Protesters rage as MSPs vote down gender reform amendment (msn.com)

[neil7908]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm not sure the Irish situation is directly comparable and it's certainly not true that the reforms there have caused barely a ripple. As Ash Regan pointed out last week the legislation there (and I think in Norway) was kind of piggy-backed through on the back of more popular measures (eg marriage law reform) with little in the way of public debate. She also alluded to recent polling in Ireland which shows less than 20% public support for the measures implemented. I note also that the Catholic Church have today opposed the Scottish government legislation, citing dissatisfaction with the impact it has had on women's rights in Ireland.

And this is most certainly about women's rights as much as women's safety. Even today I think it's true to say that women as a sex are discriminated against in society and this legislation will make 'women' into a kind of mixed-sex category - something that will put barriers in place when it comes to furthering the cause of women's rights. It will also make it harder for women to access female-only services and spaces, including hospital wards and intimate care as providers will be unable to grant such requests. That has got to be wrong surely - especially as trans people already have the right to access gender-neutral spaces and specialist services. It's removing women's rights to privacy and dignity - not to mention removal of safeguarding - and it can't surely have come as a surprise to Sturgeon to see that public opposition to such measures is over 60%. Shrugging this off by simply saying it seems to have been OK in Ireland doesn't really cut it when it comes to addressing such valid concerns for women (concerns that men don't have to deal with).

The Catholic Church... women's rights... 😂😂😂

[JeMeSouviens]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

sorry if I’ve missed this, what’s the situation with Kate Forbes? Why would she be sacked/resign?

She’s a minister in scotgov so would be expected to resign if she voted against a govt policy. She’s also a wee free.

[James310]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

‘Shame on you’: Protesters rage as MSPs vote down gender reform amendment (msn.com)

Women threatened with arrest if they don't leave the public gallery.

Although begs the question why would you allow convicted sex offenders the ability to change gender? Because they are genuinely nice people underneath it all and are just confused?

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Women threatened with arrest if they don't leave the public gallery.

Although begs the question why would you allow convicted sex offenders the ability to change gender? Because they are genuinely nice people underneath it all and are just confused?

Yes, we should cut their bloody baws off……wait….hang on..



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yes, we should cut their bloody baws off……wait….hang on..



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You love an emoji when it's actually a serious matter.

No, but should we allow them to change gender so easily as filling in a form and self declaring they are now a woman? I assume you think yes, why?

[He's here!]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The Catholic Church... women's rights... 😂😂😂

A not insignificant body of opinion in Ireland, but irrespective of anyone's opinion of them that's not my point. It just underlines that the Irish example isn't really some glowing example of legislation warmly embraced. It's what folk actually think of what's being introduced that matters, not simply letting it roll over them because it has 'worked' elsewhere.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

A not insignificant body of opinion in Ireland, but irrespective of anyone's opinion of them that's not my point. It just underlines that the Irish example isn't really some glowing example of legislation warmly embraced. It's what folk actually think of what's being introduced that matters, not simply letting it roll over them because it has 'worked' elsewhere.

I think they are pretty much ignored in Ireland these days as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[archie]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yes, we should cut their bloody baws off……wait….hang on..



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So the Parliament has voted to protect the rights of sex offenders over women. Is that funny?

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So the Parliament has voted to protect the rights of sex offenders over women. Is that funny?

Don’t think there are any votes until tomorrow?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As a male this has no direct impact on me. However although I respect trans rights, I also respect woman’s rights and it strikes me that you cannot meet both without one or other being impacted.

I canvassed the opinion of my wife and daughter who had no reason to object which surprised me.

I do still feel the current approach is wrong and some of the areas of concern could be tightened up to try and strike a balance.

I'm similar. Living in a country where you regularly have mixed toilets, showers and saunas as well as Doctors and Nurses of both sex and probably all variants along the gender/sex spectrum, it's difficult for me to understand what all the fuss is about. I think the likelihood of some perve getting a sex change or identifying as a woman just to oggle at naked women is very unlikely and what's to stop them just doing it anyway?

It just all feels so Victorian.

[James310]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Don’t think there are any votes until tomorrow?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eh? They are voting on amendments about every 10 minutes now.

I can ask again, why do you think the rights of sex offenders should be prioritised over the rights of women? Is it funny?