Climate change and the impending apocalypse

[AgentDaleCooper]

anyone worried about it?

[wookie70]

I can't see the point in worrying. Fairly depressing to think little will be done to stop it and many of the population seem more concerned with being held up on a motorway than the planet burning. T

[AgentDaleCooper]

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I can't see the point in worrying. Fairly depressing to think little will be done to stop it and many of the population seem more concerned with being held up on a motorway than the planet burning. T

if so, can you see the point in anything?

i wonder if part of the problem is that it still seems like a somewhat abstract notion to a lot of people - famines and floods have always been going on 'abroad', and one insane heatwave doesn't prove anything on an emotional level...

i don't have kids, but i find it totally nuts that anyone who does isn't in full, constant fight-or-flight panic for the future they will have. it might sound pointless, but it's a lot less pointless than doing nothing and complaining when people trying to do something inconvenience you.

[wookie70]

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if so, can you see the point in anything?

i wonder if part of the problem is that it still seems like a somewhat abstract notion to a lot of people - famines and floods have always been going on 'abroad', and one insane heatwave doesn't prove anything on an emotional level...

i don't have kids, but i find it totally nuts that anyone who does isn't in full, constant fight-or-flight panic for the future they will have. it might sound pointless, but it's a lot less pointless than doing nothing and complaining when people trying to do something inconvenience you.

If I let myself worry I think it would be all consuming. It is too horrible to imagine. I do have kids and I do worry about their future but I also can't see the human race doing much about it until things change so dramatically that the damage will be irreparable. Where can I flight too and how can I fight it.

I only choose not to worry as I don't feel I can do anything to change it. I will recycle etc and am trying to get solar fitted etc but none of that will matter unless the whole way the world is governed changes. And that won't happen with anything other than climate change massively effecting the Western World. I try to worry about things I can change or have a bearing on. Yes, smaller worries are trifling in comparison but I can try to make these things change and help my kids etc. I have always felt guilty about not having the guts to protest to the extent that my liberty could be in jeopardy. I applaud those that are fighting and they have my full moral and emotional support. The flight I have chosen is to not spend my days worrying about an impending apocalypse that I feel is now inevitable.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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If I let myself worry I think it would be all consuming. It is too horrible to imagine. I do have kids and I do worry about their future but I also can't see the human race doing much about it until things change so dramatically that the damage will be irreparable. Where can I flight too and how can I fight it.

I only choose not to worry as I don't feel I can do anything to change it. I will recycle etc and am trying to get solar fitted etc but none of that will matter unless the whole way the world is governed changes. And that won't happen with anything other than climate change massively effecting the Western World. I try to worry about things I can change or have a bearing on. Yes, smaller worries are trifling in comparison but I can try to make these things change and help my kids etc. I have always felt guilty about not having the guts to protest to the extent that my liberty could be in jeopardy. I applaud those that are fighting and they have my full moral and emotional support. The flight I have chosen is to not spend my days worrying about an impending apocalypse that I feel is now inevitable.

that's totally understandable, and I hope I wasn't sounding like I was having a go - it's just genuine exasperation on my part.

i don't think it's totally necessary to put your liberty in jeopardy, though. Again, without wanting to sound like I'm having a go, one positive move would be simply to step back from defeatism, which is sort of part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If doing so causes angst, then apparently joining some sort of campaign is sort of shown to reduce that sense of anxiety, because you can truly feel that you are doing what you can - if one got the balance right, I'm sure it's possible to do this without it becoming all consuming.

[Ozyhibby]

My next car will be all electric (and hopefully smaller) and I’m considering solar panels. I know I could do more but I am trying.


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[wookie70]

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that's totally understandable, and I hope I wasn't sounding like I was having a go - it's just genuine exasperation on my part.

i don't think it's totally necessary to put your liberty in jeopardy, though. Again, without wanting to sound like I'm having a go, one positive move would be simply to step back from defeatism, which is sort of part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If doing so causes angst, then apparently joining some sort of campaign is sort of shown to reduce that sense of anxiety, because you can truly feel that you are doing what you can - if one got the balance right, I'm sure it's possible to do this without it becoming all consuming.

I'll sign petitions, I'm our Union Environmental Rep and do what I can to make sure our organisation has as little Carbon use as possible, I'll march and certainly tell those who try to deny the undeniable what's what but none of that will make a difference. What I do isn't really fighting, more like shadow boxing imo, and what I really think is the war is lost already. That is defeatist, I know, but I simply can't see how anything will change with people power. Nature will be the force that brings about a change to the world's economy and systems. Remember your initial question is regarding worry. I will not worry because that to me would serve no purpose apart from negatively effecting my mental health. .

[SHODAN]

Nah mate there's a bunch of Albanians trying to cross the border or something, haven't you heard?

[Paulie Walnuts]

17 degrees in Edinburgh on Friday in mid November.

[Pretty Boy]

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My next car will be all electric (and hopefully smaller) and I’m considering solar panels. I know I could do more but I am trying.


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We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

[Jones28]

The whole game is ****ed until the big polluting companies of the world start to really take responsibility for their emissions.

I’m taking lots of steps to be greener, electric car, solar panels, recycling, growing our own etc etc. but on an individual level it’s drop in the ocean stuff.

[WeeRussell]

If governments don’t care about the people that voted for them (or didn’t) good luck convincing them to change their behaviour now for the good of people that don’t exist yet.

[JeMeSouviens]

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We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

I agree about your 2nd issue: the personal habits thing is just to make you feel good and that you're doing something so you'll continue to live essentially as you are. "Hey, I drive an extra 20 miles so I can recycle some cardboard that'll probably end up being shipped off somewhere and burnt, now back to my next easyjet booking."

But on the 1st issue I disagree. When push comes to shove, industrially developed countries can move fast. See moves to get away from dependence on Russian gas. The fundamental problem so far is that cost-benefit analysis hasn't got to the stage where naked self interest applies to the rich developed countries in the north. That will change, the tragedy is that developing countries will already be bearing a much fuller brunt than they already are.

On electric cars, you're right that the greenest thing you can do as an individual right now is keep your existing ICE car as long as possible and do less miles if you can. But without early adopters, the electric vehicle market will never get to the point where it is properly green.

[hibsbollah]

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anyone worried about it?

I feel like we are living in an alternate universe, where we’re sleepwalking to disaster without really giving two ****s about it. Its not even Armageddon because Armageddon suggests there’s a battle taking place; but in reality there’s no battle, there’s just a sort of weary acceptance.

I’ve just taken delivery of my first leased electric car and I love it, and I cycle to work most days anyway. But I’m under no illusions that Im making a massive difference.

[Bristolhibby]

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We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

Money talks unfortunately. And money also buys political power.

Without either there is simply no desire to change. All the words are hollow.

The capitalist system has ****ed us. We have the money and resources a million times over to stop this reverse, put humanity on a sustainable footing.

Now all I can see is some dystopian future, a bit like the dark ages when the people of Europe marvelled at the rotting remains of Roman civilisation and wonder “how did they do what they did and we can’t?”

J

[Stairway 2 7]

How do we stop China and the US?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/environm...al-revolution/

China pumps out more pollution in eight years than UK since Industrial Revolution
CO2 emissions of 80bn tonnes from 2013 to 2020 is higher than Britain’s 78bn over 220 years

[Ozyhibby]

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We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

I don’t know the exact figures but I think yours for the leaf will be a mixture of slightly out of date and also not applicable to Scotland?
Usually those figures are calculated based on the generating mix of the country and in Scotlands case that is heavily in favour of renewables. There has also been big improvements in recycling of the batteries on EV’s. There is also the matter of localised emissions which EV’s save us from which will benefit your neighbours etc.


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[Stairway 2 7]

A brilliant interactive article on how green your electric vehicle is. Few of the points above raised

https://ig.ft.com/electric-car/

[Oscar T Grouch]

There is little to no point worrying about something that is inevitable, is there? There is no way that all governments will come together and sort the problems out. We are already past the tipping point in terms of renewable resources, we use more than 100% each year so the what we have is less and less. We are totally reliant on oil, there is little to no shift away from it too. We are speeding towards a cliff and Capitalism is pressing harder on the accelerator. The thing that gets me is people think this will be a really slow process, something that might effect their grandkids but we are on the edge right now. All it will take is a couple of things going a different way to what usually happens and our whole food eco-system collapses. When we get to the middle of this century huge swathes of the planet will literally be uninhabitable, if you think migration is a problem now let's see what happens when southern Europe is too hot to live in, those people will not be going south! But let's be honest, if we get to that stage the food eco-system will have collapsed by then anyway.

This is going to end messily, billions are going to die of starvation, those left will have a miserable short existence. Can we stop it? Yeah probably, if we change everything we are doing right now, will we stop it? No, there is no chance on Earth that humans will stop this, we will end up a small and damaging blip on the history of Earth, the only proof of our existence at all will probably be the two Voyager probes we sent out into the cosmos in August and September of 1977. The Earth will recycle our mess back into her crust, we will probably be responsible for the death of most life on the planet but life should prevail in some form or Earth will become another Venus, sweltering in greenhouse gas filled atmosphere until our star expands into a red dwarf star and engulfs this little insignificant ball of rock and iron and recycle it into the cosmos.

But apart from all that, everything is fine

[Ozyhibby]

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A brilliant interactive article on how green your electric vehicle is. Few of the points above raised

https://ig.ft.com/electric-car/

That’s pretty helpful actually.


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[nonshinyfinish]

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A brilliant interactive article on how green your electric vehicle is. Few of the points above raised

https://ig.ft.com/electric-car/

That's a useful summary. Key point being that despite all the downsides (energy intensity of battery manufacture, lithium mining etc), the carbon saving over the lifetime of the car is decent in regions where the grid is relatively green (and getting greener over time):

Despite the significant improvements that need to be made to manufacturing there is evidence that, even today, overall EVs are cleaner than traditional alternatives

A 2021 study by the International Council on Clean Transportation estimates that with today’s power plants providing the energy the emissions from an EV across its whole lifecycle — from manufacturing to miles on the road — are 66-69 per cent below those of petrol cars in Europe

In the US, the emissions from EVs are 60-68 per cent lower, the study shows, while in China the gap is 37-45 per cent. In India, it’s 19–34 per cent

As energy becomes cleaner across the globe, that gap is expected to widen

Of course EVs aren't a panacea and as mentioned above, ditching an ICE car with plenty of life in it for an EV may cancel out a significant chunk of the carbon savings.

[McSwanky]

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That's a useful summary. Key point being that despite all the downsides (energy intensity of battery manufacture, lithium mining etc), the carbon saving over the lifetime of the car is decent in regions where the grid is relatively green (and getting greener over time):



Of course EVs aren't a panacea and as mentioned above, ditching an ICE car with plenty of life in it for an EV may cancel out a significant chunk of the carbon savings.

Exactly. Neighbour of mine recently received a hybrid Range Rover to replace his 3 year old petrol Merc. The Merc was lovely and in great condition. There's a lot of that sort of thing going on.

The 'leasing generation' of drivers that have a new car every 2, 3 or 4 years is just crazy IMO, from a cost and environmental point of view.

[nonshinyfinish]

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Exactly. Neighbour of mine recently received a hybrid Range Rover to replace his 3 year old petrol Merc. The Merc was lovely and in great condition. There's a lot of that sort of thing going on.

The 'leasing generation' of drivers that have a new car every 2, 3 or 4 years is just crazy IMO, from a cost and environmental point of view.

I guess in theory these cars supply the used market and therefore may mean that someone else buys them instead of a new car, but I've no idea how that shakes out in practice.

[McSwanky]

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I guess in theory these cars supply the used market and therefore may mean that someone else buys them instead of a new car, but I've no idea how that shakes out in practice.

Yeah, but if everyone keeps their cars for 8 years as opposed to 3 or 4, surely there are less cars manufactured, which is a good thing (not for the car companies obviously)?

[Ozyhibby]

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Yeah, but if everyone keeps their cars for 8 years as opposed to 3 or 4, surely there are less cars manufactured, which is a good thing (not for the car companies obviously)?

Tax system is the best way to deliver that.


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[Antifa Hibs]

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How do we stop China and the US?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/environm...al-revolution/

China pumps out more pollution in eight years than UK since Industrial Revolution
CO2 emissions of 80bn tonnes from 2013 to 2020 is higher than Britain’s 78bn over 220 years

Its a COP out (pun intended) to just blame China. Per capita they emit less than the UK.

They also manufacture products for the entire world, we seen during covid how vital Chinese manufacturing was because we don't hold those capabilities anymore.

You then have direct and in-direct. I doubt the hundreds of billions that the City of London based banks invest in oil every year are taking into account when calculating these scores.

[Antifa Hibs]

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We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

The technology thing is just capitalists trying to retain the status quo and push ahead with things as way they are, as if everything is normal and a CO2 extraction machine that doesn't exist yet will fix everything.

You can't technology yourself out of an economic system that requires infinite growth on a planet than has finite resources.


The fact there is probably half a dozen climate threads on a fitba forum in the last 6-12 months gives me a small glimmer of hope change is coming.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Its a COP out (pun intended) to just blame China. Per capita they emit less than the UK.

They also manufacture products for the entire world, we seen during covid how vital Chinese manufacturing was because we don't hold those capabilities anymore.

You then have direct and in-direct. I doubt the hundreds of billions that the City of London based banks invest in oil every year are taking into account when calculating these scores.

I agree we do pollute more per head. But the point is what can the rest do if they won't decrease, ours is tiny compared to theirs.

Disagree about production. If you are saying we have to do this by head of population, uk is a much bigger manufacturer than China per head of pop.

I suppose India will be the next problem as they are going to be the biggest population next year

[The_Exile]

Recycling a few bottles and a bunch of cardboard will make **** all difference in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that will actually work is voting in representatives who will take the steps neccessary to ensure everything that needs to be done, is actually done. That means all of us voting for green candidates, under the crystal clear knowledge that life for us as we know it changes, and likely not for the better. What would you say the chances of that happening within our lifetime is? And what would you say the chances of absolultely nothing changing until billions of people die because we're too cowardly to do anything about it? If I were a betting man..............

[CropleyWasGod]

Really like this piece. It challenges the notion that what we call "science" has all the answers.

I'd like to see more of it.

https://www.bigissue.com/news/enviro...dge-seriously/