The Trans Rights Debate

[James310]

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Your with the ideologically driven loons, who want to indoctrinate children into believing this garbage. Biological sex is real it's been with us from time immemorial. The idea that kids can take puberty blockers without there being any long term consequence is nonsense. There is a court order against kids taking them because they can't possibly understand what the long term consequences are.

You know that's what Lorna Slater said, not me?

[147lothian]

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You know that's what Lorna Slater said, not me?

Why quote her when what she says goes against a court order?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Why quote her when what she says goes against a court order?

If you mean the Keira Bell case, that was overturned by the Appeals Court. It's an English case, that is going to the Supreme Court,.

Edit. The Supreme Court have refused to hear the case.

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/supreme-court-refuses-application-for-appeal-in-puberty-blockers-case

[Stairway 2 7]

BREAKING⎜ Transgender swimmers in elite women's competition effectively banned by governing body - as new 'open' category created: Swimming's world governing body has voted to effectively ban transgender athletes from competing in women's elite races. VIA
@SkyNews

[He's here!]

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BREAKING⎜ Transgender swimmers in elite women's competition effectively banned by governing body - as new 'open' category created: Swimming's world governing body has voted to effectively ban transgender athletes from competing in women's elite races. VIA
@SkyNews

The governing body deserve a lot of credit for this. At last, some grown-up decisions being made to ensure women's sport isn't rendered redundant.

[147lothian]

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The governing body deserve a lot of credit for this.At last, some grown-up decisions being made to ensure women's sport isn't rendered redundant.

This is good news for sporty females, they must have been thinking what is the point of putting in all the hard work if a man can self identify as a women and take the gold medals.

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

[danhibees1875]

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This is good news for sporty females, they must have been thinking what is the point of putting in all the hard work if a man can self identify as a women and take the gold medals.

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

My understanding was that it wasn't a simple case of a man going "right, I'm a girl now" and rocking up to the qualification tournaments etc the next day to compete against other girls.

They had to have been going through official change for a significant period of time, impacting their everyday life. It wasn't something they could only be/say for sake of sporting advantage.

Apologies if that's not what you meant anyway, but it's how it sounded in your post.

None of that is to say that it's the wrong decision. It feels correct on balance.

[Stairway 2 7]

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My understanding was that it wasn't a simple case of a man going "right, I'm a girl now" and rocking up to the qualification tournaments etc the next day to compete against other girls.

They had to have been going through official change for a significant period of time, impacting their everyday life. It wasn't something they could only be/say for sake of sporting advantage.

Apologies if that's not what you meant anyway, but it's how it sounded in your post.

None of that is to say that it's the wrong decision. It feels correct on balance.

They could have went through puberty as a male which was the problem. They then always had a physical advantage regardless of further hormones ect after that.

Obviously the correct decision. Hopefully that will be the end of it as it is such a small issue to the hundreds of other problems trans people face

[danhibees1875]

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They could have went through puberty as a male which was the problem. They then always had a physical advantage regardless of further hormones ect after that.

Obviously the correct decision. Hopefully that will be the end of it as it is such a small issue to the hundreds of other problems trans people face

Yep - that's why I ultimately agree with the decision.

My comment was around the phrasing used by the OP which made it sound like the current/old system was a lot more open to manipulation than I believe it to be.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Yep - that's why I ultimately agree with the decision.

My comment was around the phrasing used by the OP which made it sound like the current/old system was a lot more open to manipulation than I believe it to be.

It doesn't matter about surgery or what you identify as, it's all about hormone level. Their testosterone has to be bellow a certain level for 12 months before an event. Of course like taking steroids or other substances this could technically be abused, I'd think it'd be unlikely

[147lothian]

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Yep - that's why I ultimately agree with the decision.

My comment was around the phrasing used by the OP which made it sound like the current/old system was a lot more open to manipulation than I believe it to be.

If you check out the you tube attached in the OP bud, you will see that Lia Thomas went from ranked 462 in the male category to being the number 1 female, this is not because he/she became a better swimmer its because he/she entered a different category.

Obviously the checks and balances were not in place, because to count back as far as ranked 462 to becoming number 1 is unheard of in elite sport, this case is so clear cut that even trans people are questioning if it was all a plant to discredit transwomen in woman's sport.

If you look at him/her on the podium it really is like something out of a South Park episode.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If you check out the you tube attached in the OP bud, you will see that Lia Thomas went from 462 in the male category to being the number 1 female, this is not because he became a better swimmer its because he entered a different category.

Obviously the checks and balances were not in place, because to count back as far as 462 to becoming number 1 is unheard of, this is case is so clear cut that even trans people are questioning if it was all a plant to discredit transwomen in woman's sport.

If you look at him on the podium it really is like something out of a South Park episode.

Him?

[Ozyhibby]

Good decision and surprised it’s taken them so long. I expect other sports bodies to follow suit.


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[147lothian]

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Him?

Ok I'll edit this part no offence to anyone meant

[LewysGot2]

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It doesn't matter about surgery or what you identify as, it's all about hormone level. Their testosterone has to be bellow a certain level for 12 months before an event. Of course like taking steroids or other substances this could technically be abused, I'd think it'd be unlikely

It's more than simply about hormone levels. Women aren't small men with less testosterone. The benefits of male puberty are never negated regardless of adult hormones being suppressed. The female skeleton, weight distribution, lung capacity, muscle density and biological functions associated with reproduction all impede ability to perform and train.

The length of time of waiting 24 months isn't necessarily an issue if you can compete at the Olympics in your 40s like Laurel Hubbard - twice the age of most of the field. The length of the career of a Trans Identifying athlete can be extended significantly because the advantages of male puberty allow it if competing in a female category. And, of course, they don't face the prospect of careers being paused for pregnancy and childbirth.

FINA's decision seems wise and fair. Sebastian Coe implied today IAAF will likely follow suit.

[Stairway 2 7]

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It's more than simply about hormone levels. Women aren't small men with less testosterone. The benefits of male puberty are never negated regardless of adult hormones being suppressed. The female skeleton, weight distribution, lung capacity, muscle density and biological functions associated with reproduction all impede ability to perform and train.

The length of time of waiting 24 months isn't necessarily an issue if you can compete at the Olympics in your 40s like Laurel Hubbard - twice the age of most of the field. The length of the career of a Trans Identifying athlete can be extended significantly because the advantages of male puberty allow it if competing in a female category. And, of course, they don't face the prospect of careers being paused for pregnancy and childbirth.

FINA's decision seems wise and fair. Sebastian Coe implied today IAAF will likely follow suit.

I was answering the question of what it takes to complete in the Olympics and it simply comes down to the testosterone level. I agree with you and said on another post that that is unfair as if they have gone through puberty they will always have an advantage, regardless of testosterone level

[Moulin Yarns]

Women's hearts are also different to men's.

A pregnant woman can increase their heart and blood volumes by up to 50%. That's some advantage 😉

[danhibees1875]

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It doesn't matter about surgery or what you identify as, it's all about hormone level. Their testosterone has to be bellow a certain level for 12 months before an event. Of course like taking steroids or other substances this could technically be abused, I'd think it'd be unlikely

Generally speaking then, it's not something people can just enter into lightly and claim on a whim they are a woman in order to gain a competitive advantage is all I was getting at. It's part of a wider lifestyle change they'd be fairly committed to.

The competitive advantage that is gained is a separate argument, one that has now been addressed by the authorities (at least within swimming).

[LewysGot2]

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Women's hearts are also different to men's.

A pregnant woman can increase their heart and blood volumes by up to 50%. That's some advantage 😉

Rachel Boyle is missing a trick...

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

A tricky issue for sure.

[danhibees1875]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

A tricky issue for sure.

Very complex. I'm sure there's a discussion to be had about how these things work - it's really just a continuation of the typical discussion around public spaces - but I'm not sure how suing them is the answer in this case.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Very complex. I'm sure there's a discussion to be had about how these things work - it's really just a continuation of the typical discussion around public spaces - but I'm not sure how suing them is the answer in this case.

Would it be in the press if she just filed a complaint. Surely there is a line and coming to a female rape group still presenting as a man in male clothing is past that

[speedy_gonzales]

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Would it be in the press if she just filed a complaint. Surely there is a line and coming to a female rape group still presenting as a man in male clothing is past that

Male clothing? Not being deliberately obtuse but if we're talking trousers & shirt/jumper then I'm sure most women would wear such garments, maybe not every day, but at some point. Unsure what the dress code for a rape support group would be?
Not all women have their hair or make-up "done" 24/7 either.

Going by the article, it sounds like this woman has had a very traumatic life, and being "forced" to discuss it candidly in front of people that make her uncomfortable isn't going to make her feel any better.
But, the other party in the story clearly has had a traumatic situation also (why else would they be there), where is their safe space, in a group of CIS men?

Unsure what the answer is but sounds like things could have been handled a lot better, starting with permission & agreement from those within the group.

[He's here!]

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Male clothing? Not being deliberately obtuse but if we're talking trousers & shirt/jumper then I'm sure most women would wear such garments, maybe not every day, but at some point. Unsure what the dress code for a rape support group would be?
Not all women have their hair or make-up "done" 24/7 either.

Going by the article, it sounds like this woman has had a very traumatic life, and being "forced" to discuss it candidly in front of people that make her uncomfortable isn't going to make her feel any better.
But, the other party in the story clearly has had a traumatic situation also (why else would they be there), where is their safe space, in a group of CIS men?

Unsure what the answer is but sounds like things could have been handled a lot better, starting with permission & agreement from those within the group.

No question there are an increasing number of folk (the majority of them teenagers/young adults in my experience) who present as what I'd say is gender neutral in the way they dress/hairstyle etc. The impression I get from this case though it that the transgender woman presented to almost all intents and purposes as a man, an understandably unsettling experience for the others in attendance to deal with in a meeting of this nature . As you say, based on the facts presented, this was not well handled.

[superfurryhibby]

People with a ***** should not be part of a safe space or safe group for female victims of sexual abuse or sexual assault. I don’t care what they self identify as, it’s deeply wrong.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i think it's understandable why "Sarah" could have felt uncomfortable, but my first thought is what is the point in suing, will winning money make her feel a lot better, will suing them help them support others if having to pay out seriously affects the charity



apologies if misunderstood bbc article

[Pretty Boy]

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i think it's understandable why "Sarah" could have felt uncomfortable, but my first thought is what is the point in suing, will winning money make her feel a lot better, will suing them help them support others if having to pay out seriously affects the charity



apologies if misunderstood bbc article

Could suing the charity not enable the decision to be used as a legal precedent in future cases if she is successful?

[CropleyWasGod]

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i think it's understandable why "Sarah" could have felt uncomfortable, but my first thought is what is the point in suing, will winning money make her feel a lot better, will suing them help them support others if having to pay out seriously affects the charity



apologies if misunderstood bbc article

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Could suing the charity not enable the decision to be used as a legal precedent in future cases if she is successful?

If her heart is in the right place, it's not about the money. And I would hope that a decent judge would set any damages at a minimal amount.

[He's here!]

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Could suing the charity not enable the decision to be used as a legal precedent in future cases if she is successful?

Indeed. I'm making an assumption that's what's at the heart of her taking the legal route.

[He's here!]

https://news.sky.com/story/tom-daley...tions-12641281

Tom Daley is missing the point here IMHO.