The Trans Rights Debate

[Stairway 2 7]

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Surely unisex changing facilities have the same problem, exacerbated with all genders sharing the same space!!!

I don't think you've been in one if your saying that. Unisex ones have all the facilities in a separate cubicle each. Where as the gym my daughter goes to, the females is a square changing room with no cubicles and you walk from there to the showers. I don't really want my daughter to have to get changed and go for a shower next to male genitals. It's not a fear of rape its just female wishes

[LewysGot2]

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https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

The majority of women and men don't want trans women in female changing rooms. Surely no man would tell women what to think or what they should accept

Yes, attitudes change depending on what people perceived trans to mean. The inclusion of everything from full surgery and hormone treatment through to those with autogynophilia where presenting as a female in stereotypical fashion in a performative fashion (for arousal) under the trans umbrella means people aren't sure of what it can mean. If you ask females if they are happy with someone who has surgically transitioned they are more positive, if they are asked about those who are fully intact males the responses are quite different.

Its not about the worse case scenario either. Imagine gender neutral toilets at the football and how comfortable anyone would be with that.

[Moulin Yarns]

See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

[Stairway 2 7]

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See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

Most would probably agree with you, but not the trans community. The majority don't have the surgery. It's hard. I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway, problem is companies don't like spending money unless they have to

[LewysGot2]

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See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

Most don't get surgery, that's the issue here. Those people are in the minority.

The other thing here is if you say anyone can be in any currently single sex space you are saying anyone can do that without challenge.

Girls being pestered by males who are just bog standard creeps in a nightclub often see the female loos as a safe space to seek help from other females. If anyone can go in those loos, that safe space is gone. It's not just about trans issues it's about general safeguarding/dignity/comfort/privacy for the population as a whole.

A lot of men don't want gender neutral facilities either.

The cost of putting in place safe gender neutral facilities that meet the capacity needs where the efficiency of urinals are removed will be prohibitive or restrictive, too.

[superfurryhibby]

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Are you suggesting that students were deliberately given false information ?

It's a **** up. A bad one. But you seem to be saying that it's part of some sort of wider agenda. Are you?

It’s wokeism gone mad and shows undercurrents of institutions tying themselves in knots to promote a bizarre agenda.

[superfurryhibby]

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Most don't get surgery, that's the issue here. Those people are in the minority.

The other thing here is if you say anyone can be in any currently single sex space you are saying anyone can do that without challenge.

Girls being pestered by males who are just bog standard creeps in a nightclub often see the female loos as a safe space to seek help from other females. If anyone can go in those loos, that safe space is gone. It's not just about trans issues it's about general safeguarding/dignity/comfort/privacy for the population as a whole.

A lot of men don't want gender neutral facilities either.

The cost of putting in place safe gender neutral facilities that meet the capacity needs where the efficiency of urinals are removed will be prohibitive or restrictive, too.

Gender neutral, single occupancy spaces, like the individual toilet cubicles fine.

For the likes of changing rooms etc, utterly insane. Who in the real world could seriously be advocating this?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Gender neutral, single occupancy spaces, like the individual toilet cubicles fine.

For the likes of changing rooms etc, utterly insane. Who in the real world could seriously be advocating this?

The gender neutral changing rooms are individual changing spaces, not open rooms obviously. Half of swimming pools already have this. You all go in as a family pick your cubicle and the only place you would really mix is at the mirrors

[Moulin Yarns]

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-...men-in-danger/


90% of sex attacks in council leisure centres happen in unisex changing areas.

[Stairway 2 7]

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https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-...men-in-danger/


90% of sex attacks in council leisure centres happen in unisex changing areas.

120 in 2 years, 46 in public mixed areas like pools and corridors. Seems a small number of weirdos. But if the trans community don't want this, then they should have nothing.

They say its protecting women at a stage of undress, well imagine a female in a state of undress next to someone with male genitals undressed.

[superfurryhibby]

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The gender neutral changing rooms are individual changing spaces, not open rooms obviously. Half of swimming pools already have this. You all go in as a family pick your cubicle and the only place you would really mix is at the mirrors

In a world where some are substituting the word mother for people with wombs anything is possible.

You say obviously, but you actually wrote " I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway". Places like Warrender baths have always had the cubicles around the pool, they've always been gender neutral, that's different.

I don't have a problem with male/female only changing rooms, nor do I agree that unisex changing rooms are generally better. Why bother? Just leave them as they are. Who does installing cubicles actually benefit?

The scope for deviant men ogling others would increase enormously. It may also alienate people from other cultures and prevent them using facilities.

[Stairway 2 7]

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In a world where some are substituting the word mother for people with wombs anything is possible.

You say obviously, but you actually wrote " I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway". Places like Warrender baths have always had the cubicles around the pool, they've always been gender neutral, that's different.

I don't have a problem with male/female only changing rooms, nor do I agree that unisex changing rooms are generally better. Why bother? Just leave them as they are. Who does installing cubicles actually benefit?

The scope for deviant men ogling others would increase enormously. It may also alienate people from other cultures and prevent them using facilities.

If there is floor to ceiling cubicles there is no way of ogling. I've used unisex changing areas in swimming pools and water parks all around the world, I've seen most cultures using them happily. It's handy when you can help the wife if you have a baby and small kids, just pass them out

[superfurryhibby]

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If there is floor to ceiling cubicles there is no way of ogling. I've used unisex changing areas in swimming pools and water parks all around the world, I've seen most cultures using them happily. It's handy when you can help the wife if you have a baby and small kids, just pass them out

I'm less cosmopolitan than you and only know them from the old council pools in Edinburgh.

Fair enough, in the design of new facilities, maybe they will be easier to incorporate, but for me it's not a pressing issue.

Back to the people with wombs stuff..........

Interesting to see that ERI no longer have a maternity ward, it's a Birth Centre. Although they still refer to "Midwives". and "Maternity services". The word women is quite noticeably absent in most of the pages. On the introductory page they do mention women " Being pregnant is a special time in your life and NHS Lothian Maternity Services strive to ensure that all women and babies are provided with the highest quality care throughout your pregnancy journey".

[Stairway 2 7]

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I'm less cosmopolitan than you and only know them from the old council pools in Edinburgh.

Fair enough, in the design of new facilities, maybe they will be easier to incorporate, but for me it's not a pressing issue.

Back to the people with wombs stuff..........

Interesting to see that ERI no longer have a maternity ward, it's a Birth Centre. Although they still refer to "Midwives". and "Maternity services". The word women is quite noticeably absent in most of the pages. On the introductory page they do mention women " Being pregnant is a special time in your life and NHS Lothian Maternity Services strive to ensure that all women and babies are provided with the highest quality care throughout your pregnancy journey".

I'd probably agree with you that it could be a standard in new builds. Maybe just have male female and maybe one unisex cubicle, like we do with disabled toilets and baby change. Because the problem is so small that the huge cost of changing everywhere would be a waste.

Your second point, yes it's ridiculous. All our information when we had the bairn was about the birthing parent, as you say no mention about mum's. My wife went to some mum and baby yoga regularly. They had to change the name to parent and baby yoga. But when dad's started applying, they went with the snappy name of birthing parent and baby yoga

[147lothian]

Biological sex is real, if there is no such thing as biological sex, there is no such thing as trans, it's good to see that trans people are now speaking out against the Woke nonsense that claims to speak on their behalf as some kind of clown show in the oppression olympics

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-61167271

13 year olds wanting unisex toilets at school.

Talk about over indulged entitlement gone haywire.

I just can’t buy into all of this. It’s attention seeking to the max.

The tyranny of the not very silent tiny minority.

[LewysGot2]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-61167271

13 year olds wanting unisex toilets at school.

Talk about over indulged entitlement gone haywire.

I just can’t buy into all of this. It’s attention seeking to the max.

The tyranny of the not very silent tiny minority.

That's a really sad article. Children are often unhappy with the changes in their bodies when they hit puberty - that's pretty normal - but this is quite something else.

Scotland is showing a faster rate of increase of teenagers looking for treatment for gender identity issues.

England has 7,100 teens seeking treatment at gender clinics. Given the relative size of populations Scotland, if comparable, should be about 10% of that ie. around 700. We're not, we've got 1253 which is around 18%. Scotland has almost twice as many gender-distressed children per head of population as the other home nations.

[500miles]

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That's a really sad article. Children are often unhappy with the changes in their bodies when they hit puberty - that's pretty normal - but this is quite something else.

Scotland is showing a faster rate of increase of teenagers looking for treatment for gender identity issues.

England has 7,100 teens seeking treatment at gender clinics. Given the relative size of populations Scotland, if comparable, should be about 10% of that ie. around 700. We're not, we've got 1253 which is around 18%. Scotland has almost twice as many gender-distressed children per head of population as the other home nations.

I know the phrase "social contagion" gets thrown around negatively, but I feel the same way about religion, so I hope people understand why I apply it.

[LewysGot2]

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I know the phrase "social contagion" gets thrown around negatively, but I feel the same way about religion, so I hope people understand why I apply it.

I don't think anyone can ignore that there will be some normal teenage behaviours at play. The need to feel they have found "their tribe", the needs to rebel in some way against their parents. These are age old behaviours and, if the Internet is the key source of information and influence for these young people (as the 13 year old admitted) then there's real potential for things to be exploited/misunderstood. The number of teens seeking gender reassignment or feeling in the wrong body where ASD is also in the mix is something that can't be ignored either. We need to understand better why we've had massive increases suddenly in high functioning autistic pupils feeling they are "in the wrong body". Is it that computers are very often a big part of their lives? Or is it something else?

In Sweden the Karolinska University gender clinic is under scrutiny after an investigative documentary by the Swedish national broadcaster uncovered the extent of long term permanent physical health damage to teens put on hormones from primary school age. Transition for male bodied individuals needs 6 times the level of oestrogen used by women on HRT. That affects fertility, bone density, the major organs...massive long term implications health wise based on "the feelings of being in the wrong body" of children, seemingly in that clinic as young as 10.

They have shifted their policy on prescription of puberty blockers apparently and are no longer prescribing for U18s as a standard practice. Same has been happening in Finland.


How that pans out, what litigation might inevitably follows will be interesting because money makes the world go round.

[James310]

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I don't think anyone can ignore that there will be some normal teenage behaviours at play. The need to feel they have found "their tribe", the needs to rebel in some way against their parents. These are age old behaviours and, if the Internet is the key source of information and influence for these young people (as the 13 year old admitted) then there's real potential for things to be exploited/misunderstood. The number of teens seeking gender reassignment or feeling in the wrong body where ASD is also in the mix is something that can't be ignored either. We need to understand better why we've had massive increases suddenly in high functioning autistic pupils feeling they are "in the wrong body". Is it that computers are very often a big part of their lives? Or is it something else?

In Sweden the Karolinska University gender clinic is being investigated at the moment because an investigative documentary by the Swedish national broadcaster uncovered the extent of long term permanent physical health damage to teens put on hormones from primary school age. Transition for male bodied individuals needs 6 times the level of oestrogen used by women on HRT. That affects fertility, bone density, the major organs...massive long term implications health wise based on "the feelings of being in the wrong body" of children, seemingly in that clinic as young as 4.

How that pans out, what litigation might inevitably follows will be interesting because money makes the world go round.

Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.

You wouldn't let an under 16 vote, get married or have a tattoo as they are too young to decide. Madness you would let them do irreversible changes to their body

[LewysGot2]

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You wouldn't let an under 16 vote, get married or have a tattoo as they are too young to decide. Madness you would let them do irreversible changes to their body

It's interesting because the law decides when we can do certain things with our life and health. It sets the age to legally drink based on the body of evidence from health research that those who start drinking earlier are more likely to endure medical consequences for beginning to consume alcohol before their body is physically mature. They're statistically more likely to end up with alcohol related health conditions. However, when the courts tried to assign an age of capacity to give meaningful consent to chemical intervention around puberty and gender, it was overturned on appeal. The outcome of the original Keira Bell case was that children under the age of 13 could not understand the implications of puberty blocking. Indeed, it said that until they were 16 there was still doubt that they'd fully understand what they were signing up to. Keira Bell reported she was signed up to puberty blockers after a 3 hour assessment. It was part of her case against Tavistock that this was inadequate.

The Bell case is heart breaking 💔

[He's here!]

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Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.

If that's true she's an even bigger bampot than I thought.

[LewysGot2]

Article written yesterday by a trans non-binary author who feels they cannot tolerate people getting their pronouns wrong now.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/misge...APPLENEWS00001

[500miles]

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Article written yesterday by a trans non-binary author who feels they cannot tolerate people getting their pronouns wrong now.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/misge...APPLENEWS00001

One misspeak away from setting up a compound in the woods and giving fire and brimstone sermons about the outside world. Crazy.

[superfurryhibby]

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Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.

I’d like to see a link to that claim.

Totally bonkers.

[James310]

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I’d like to see a link to that claim.

Totally bonkers.

https://twitter.com/lornaslater/stat...hNVV0UT9g&s=19


"Puberty blockers do exactly that. Allow kids the chance to think and mature before making a life altering choice either way"

[He's here!]

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I’d like to see a link to that claim.

Totally bonkers.

Dangerous person to have been handed a ministerial role in exchange for propping up the SNP. She and Harvie are a crack(pot) pair.

[Stairway 2 7]

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https://twitter.com/lornaslater/stat...hNVV0UT9g&s=19


"Puberty blockers do exactly that. Allow kids the chance to think and mature before making a life altering choice either way"

Half wit. It doesn't just pause things, it irreversibly changes many different things

[147lothian]

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https://twitter.com/lornaslater/stat...hNVV0UT9g&s=19


"Puberty blockers do exactly that. Allow kids the chance to think and mature before making a life altering choice either way"

Your with the ideologically driven loons, who want to indoctrinate children into believing this garbage. Biological sex is real it's been with us from time immemorial. The idea that kids can take puberty blockers without there being any long term consequence is nonsense. There is a court order against kids taking them because they can't possibly understand what the long term consequences are.