Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Petrie will do nothing. He'll sit quietly in the background, with the odd sound bite to appease us but making sure he doesn't rock the SFA boat so as to threaten his position on the jobs for the boys gravy train that is the SFA.

tbf to roderick he would be rocking any boat all on his lonesome, it's a great pity the late Turnbull Hutton is not around to assist with any rocking of boats

[Phil MaGlass]

After the way the huns and the media hounded us after the cup final, I think Rod may well push for them to be stripped, I bloody hope so,
GO ON ROD, YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE.
Do it and I will forgive you for all the poor managerial appointments in the past

[.Sean.]

If a proper big club like Juventus can have titles striped then so can that mob.

[euro Hibby]

I read on the BBC that the goverment will likely pass a bill whereby EBT loans will be subjected to Tax from 1999 onwards if not repaid .
Bad 24 hours for the people !

[CropleyWasGod]

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I read on the BBC that the goverment will likely pass a bill whereby EBT loans will be subjected to Tax from 1999 onwards if not repaid .
Bad 24 hours for the people !

You got a link?

[oldbutdim]

I thought Rodders was Vice President of the SFA?

Has this changed or is his appointment as Chairman an internet fact?

Last I heard he was Chair of the Professional Game Board, but that was about it.




I'm probably behind the times as usual.

[jacomo]

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Not quite correct.

Lord Hodge said in today's judgement;

"The legislative code for the taxation of income has developed over time to reflect changing governmental policies in relation to taxation, to remove loopholes in the tax regime and to respond to the behaviour of taxpayers. Such responses include the enactment of provisions to nullify the effects of otherwise successful tax avoidance schemes (or schemes which were apparently successful pending a definitive judicial determination)."

What this means is that when the EBTs were being used they were regarded by the users as successful avoidance schemes, or at least were not unsuccessful. HMRC had the opposing view. Until today, the definitive judicial determination is that the scheme failed to have the tax effect that the promoters designed for. Until today, there was no authority for saying what was done in 2001 to 2009 was anything other than attempt at effective tax planning. The judicial process has now decided that the steps taken in the avoidance scheme were not sufficient to have the effect for income tax purposes that they were intended to have.

The LNS 'judgement' was along the lines I've mentioned here, I think. No one could say with any legal authority, at the relevant time, that what the huns did was wrong.

HMRC is one thing.

But how about Rangers use of side letters to hide full extent of remuneration from the football authorities?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Appeal rejected unanimously in the Supreme Court. Are we actually going to get sanctions here?

[Tobias Funke]

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If a proper big club like Juventus can have titles striped then so can that mob.

Exactly Sean. No doubt their pondlife supporters will argue their innocence in their usual Billy Big Baws, weearrapeepul bullsh*t way. If this gets swept under the rug again, like every other misdemeanor that club are guilty of, then its as big a scandal as their EBT scheme cheating. Heads must roll and those two muppets in charge of our game need to go.

[Offside Trap]

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You got a link?

I suspect the poster is referring to the Finance Bill 2017. There is a Disguised Remuneration charge in there relating to any EBT loans outstanding as at April 2019. Whilst enactment of that particular piece of the Finance Bill 2017 was postponed because the general election was called, it definitely will come into effect. The beneficiaries of the loans are liable for the tax and NIC. In the normal course of events, HMRC will look to the employer to remit the tax and NIC due under the charge...quite how that works for oldco I have no idea. Perhaps HMRC will go directly after the beneficiaries...

[CropleyWasGod]

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I suspect the poster is referring to the Finance Bill 2017. There is a Disguised Remuneration charge in there relating to any EBT loans outstanding as at April 2019. Whilst enactment of that particular piece of the Finance Bill 2017 was postponed because the general election was called, it definitely will come into effect. The beneficiaries of the loans are liable for the tax and NIC. In the normal course of events, HMRC will look to the employer to remit the tax and NIC due under the charge...quite how that works for oldco I have no idea. Perhaps HMRC will go directly after the beneficiaries...

Ah gotcha.

This is KPMG's take on things. It seems that it is the employer who is liable... which is, after all, what this case has (broadly) been about.

https://home.kpmg.com/uk/en/home/ins...ion-legis.html

The bit in bold... that's the (hitherto) accepted way for HMRC to deal with deficient staff schemes. From various comments on social media, though, they seem to have changed their tack recently and are going after the recipients for the tax.

[SteveHFC]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-34118126

[KWJ]

Are any of them saying that they aren't the same club now?

[blackpoolhibs]

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It's definitely not a Rangers/Celtic thing. I was at Easter road and had to watch as they celebrated on our pitch winning a title in the last minute of the game when every single player and their whole management team was being paid illegally through EBTs. You can't be a sports fan and just let that stand.
Rules are there for a reason and they have to be applied to all clubs.
The rules state that if a player is not registered properly then the game is forfeited 3-0. This has to be applied to Rangers just the same as its applied to Spartans when they were kicked out the Scottish cup for missing a signature.
If we are saying that Rangers have different rules then why bother going to watch football at all?


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Exactly, why some folk are wanting this to just blow over is beyond me? We need to rid our game of all the corruption, and this is just the start of it.

Dock them 3 points for every win and every title they won, doing nothing is just wrong and criminal. This should never be allowed to happen again, and a full punishment would go a long way of ensuring this.

[Sioux]

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HMRC is one thing.

But how about Rangers use of side letters to hide full extent of remuneration from the football authorities?

The side letters and all other 'steps' were simply steps in the avoidance scheme. It would be a leap of faith, I think, to suggest that the side letters had nothing to do with the avoidance scheme and were created solely to 'fool' the footballing authorities.

You may note the example in the decision where Player A was contracted to £416,000 per annum, which net of tax would be around £250,000. The player would be rewarded by having two payments of £125,000 paid into his sub trust. So, in this example, you could say that the contract was overstated and nothing was hidden from the football authority.

This is getting into too much detail. It is no surprise that these issues are complex, so much so that the whole saga has gone on for over 5 years at litigation level and longer when taking account of a presumed extensive investigation by HMRC, and correspondence which may well have gone on for a number of years prior to litigation.

Having said that, I now note that the SPFL will now take time to "consider any implications for the SPFL."

Their analysis of the legality or otherwise is awaited with interest. However, I'd be surprised if they could make a case for cheating based solely on legal concepts. Morally Rangers don't have a leg to stand on, imo, but that's not the same thing.

[Spike Mandela]

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I thought Rodders was Vice President of the SFA?

Has this changed or is his appointment as Chairman an internet fact?

Last I heard he was Chair of the Professional Game Board, but that was about it.




I'm probably behind the times as usual.

You are correct, my apologies...

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish....cfm?page=2560

Still doesn't dilute his SFA influence though.

[WhileTheChief..]

Don't see the point in stripping them of titles.

No one gains anything from it and as far as Rangers go they would still say they had won them.

The new board aren't responsible for what went on before so don't see how they can be blamed or fined for the actions of others.

Sorry, I know this isn't a popular view!!

[Bighoose]

The only punishment old Rangers ever got was a small fine - which they still havent paid.

Never let them forget they have yet to be properly punished.

Being forced to restart in D3 was a circumventing of the rules for their benefit... it was not a punishment as the Gers Media types like to lie about.

[oldbutdim]

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You are correct, my apologies...

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish....cfm?page=2560

Still doesn't dilute his SFA influence though.

He will have his say no doubt, but no more influence or sway than the others. The usual governance and corporate responsibility will no doubt have the effect of damping any feelings of action.

He could always resign if he was unable to live with the agreed stance of course........

Probably not though eh.

[Carheenlea]

I sense that the SFA and SPFL would like to impose some sort of sanction, but haven't a clue what any sanction might consist of.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

This is like the football equivalent of PPI. Let history be corrected so that those in the future can see the justice that should be brought against Rangers Football Club.

[oldbutdim]

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I sense that the SFA and SPFL would like to impose some sort of sanction, but haven't a clue what any sanction might consist of.

I'm sure that nice Mr Traynor can think of a suitable response.

[Spike Mandela]

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I sense that the SFA and SPFL would like to impose some sort of sanction, but haven't a clue what any sanction might consist of.

They like to come up with sanctions that aren't really sanctions like .....the transfer embargo which starts AFTER the transfer window shuts.....the 225K fine for not paying £9m VAT bill and.......the 10 point penalty which dropped Rangers from 2nd in the league to eeerrrrmm 2nd in the league.

[heretoday]

We're there any other clubs using these EBT schemes I wonder?

Perhaps in England?

[FilipinoHibs]

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We're there any other clubs using these EBT schemes I wonder?

Perhaps in England?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/englands-top-clubs-could-face-9995113

[Brunswickbill]

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Don't see the point in stripping them of titles.

No one gains anything from it and as far as Rangers go they would still say they had won them.

The new board aren't responsible for what went on before so don't see how they can be blamed or fined for the actions of others.

Sorry, I know this isn't a popular view!!

The reason Celtic fans want to have the titles removed is so that they can reclaim soul ownership of "9 in a row." No other club or fans would benefit apart from seeing fair play done. So far as the titles and cups won, they are all tarnished whether or not the SFA take any formal action to remove them.

[Ozyhibby]

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Don't see the point in stripping them of titles.

No one gains anything from it and as far as Rangers go they would still say they had won them.

The new board aren't responsible for what went on before so don't see how they can be blamed or fined for the actions of others.

Sorry, I know this isn't a popular view!!

It sends a message to future cheats that justice will be done.
Nobody gains from stripping Lance Armstrong of his titles but who could argue it's the right thing to do? Ben Johnson?
You are correct it's nothing to do with new Rangers but no one is arguing that it is?



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[blackpoolhibs]

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The reason Celtic fans want to have the titles removed is so that they can reclaim soul ownership of "9 in a row." No other club or fans would benefit apart from seeing fair play done. So far as the titles and cups won, they are all tarnished whether or not the SFA take any formal action to remove them.

We ALL win, as it will then become crystal clear if you cheat you lose every game/title/cup.

[Moulin Yarns]

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You got a link?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40505839
Will those who took part now be chased for unpaid tax?

The company is liable for the tax but given the company is in liquidation then the buck stops with the liquidators - in this case BDO. This doesn't mean that individuals who were in receipt of an EBT escape payment. Legislation is expected in the next few months that will require tax to be paid on all loans received through the EBT process from 1999 onwards.

[heretoday]

I've just had an unpleasant thought. If Rangers are stripped of their titles I assume that the teams coming second in the relevant years are credited with winning the league in those seasons. A brief look at the records shows a certain Gorgie club as runners up at least once.