Scottish Independence

[Glory Lurker]

Marinello 59 - I've heard plenty of folk who say they'll vote no say that the quality of Scottish politicians aren't up to the job of running the country, and being trusted to make decisions, along with various other incredible manifestations of the Scottish cringe.

Stranraer - Yes is not saying we're victims. It's saying we're not achieving our potential. It's saying that it's up to us whether we want to do something about that.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Marinello 59 - I've heard plenty of folk who say they'll vote no say that the quality of Scottish politicians aren't up to the job of running the country, and being trusted to make decisions, along with various other incredible manifestations of the Scottish cringe.

.

Who? David Cameron has said that Scotland is more than capable of governing itself. The argument is would we be any better off. The Scottish cringe seems to be something ultra Nats claim exists. I don't know any Scots of any political persuasion who suffer from any sort of 'cringe' . It's a myth.

[Glory Lurker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Who? David Cameron has said that Scotland is more than capable of governing itself. The argument is would we be any better off. The Scottish cringe seems to be something ultra Nats claim exists. I don't know any Scots of any political persuasion who suffer from any sort of 'cringe' . It's a myth.

I've heard plenty of folk who say they'll vote no say we're not capable of it. It's a central plank of what no-supporting Tory voters say. Too wee, too poor, too stupid is a mantra of plenty Scottish voters. I'm not an ultra Nat. There is a Scottish cringe.

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I really can't get my head around why most Scottish folk wouldn't want us to be an independent country.

I see talk about us not being capable of making "big decisions". Well perhaps if we weren't in a union where we allowed people from another country to make all the "big decisions" for us, we would learn to make our own "big decisions". No?

I don't know where you're reading that but it's not on here AFAIK.

It seems to be becoming common in this debate for folk to argue against points that haven't actually been made.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I've heard plenty of folk who say they'll vote no say we're not capable of it. It's a central plank of what no-supporting Tory voters say. Too wee, too poor, too stupid is a mantra of plenty Scottish voters. I'm not an ultra Nat. There is a Scottish cringe.

A central plank? I haven't heard anybody say we are too stupid etc. Could you name a single politician who has taken that line?
What is the Scottish cringe and how does it manifest itself? Cringing doesn't sound like anything the majority of Scots would do. Most of us are pretty proud to be Scots so anybody making a deragatory claim against a large number of us should surely be challenged.

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

A central plank? I haven't heard anybody say we are too stupid etc. Could you name a single politician who has taken that line?
What is the Scottish cringe and how does it manifest itself? Cringing doesn't sound like anything the majority of Scots would do. Most of us are pretty proud to be Scots so anybody making a deragatory claim against a large number of us should surely be challenged.

This 'Scottish cringe' seems to me to be a continuation/extension of the "Those who don't support independence are lesser Scots" line.

[Glory Lurker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

A central plank? I haven't heard anybody say we are too stupid etc. Could you name a single politician who has taken that line?
What is the Scottish cringe and how does it manifest itself? Cringing doesn't sound like anything the majority of Scots would do. Most of us are pretty proud to be Scots so anybody making a deragatory claim against a large number of us should surely be challenged.

You'll note I've not said it's a politician saying it. I'm talking about voters, and I have heard it plenty. Saying we're not good enough is a cringe - what else is it?

When did I say it was something the majority did? I made reference to it being something common among Tory supporters, notably not a majority of Scottish people.

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You'll note I've not said it's a politician saying it. I'm talking about voters, and I have heard it plenty. Saying we're not good enough is a cringe - what else is it?

When did I say it was something the majority did? I made reference to it being something common among Tory supporters, notably not a majority of Scottish people.

Do you ask them if they are Tory supporters before or after they tell you that Scotland is collectively stupid?

[Glory Lurker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This 'Scottish cringe' seems to me to be a continuation/extension of the "Those who don't support independence are lesser Scots" line.

No. It's a fair way to describe folk who go right to the other end of the argument and rubbish our potential.

As for the "lesser Scots" line, did you not just have a go at Hibercelona for picking fights over points that haven't been made?

[Glory Lurker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Do you ask them if they are Tory supporters before or after they tell you that Scotland is collectively stupid?

The folk I have heard say that we can't do it are Tories.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You'll note I've not said it's a politician saying it. I'm talking about voters, and I have heard it plenty. Saying we're not good enough is a cringe - what else is it?

When did I say it was something the majority did? I made reference to it being something common among Tory supporters, notably not a majority of Scottish people.

So you have heard plenty of people saying it and they are mainly identifiable as being Tory supporters. You are making this up now aren't you?

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25337494


Scotland's council tax will remain frozen for the seventh year running, John Swinney has confirmed.



sooooooperb

[Jonnyboy]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Fair enough, I guess I'm not either. I get the impression that the Yes side are portraying Scotland as a "victim". I find it quite irritating.

You're confusing them with Celtic fans

[Alex Trager]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I havent heard anybody from the pro-union side saying we aren't capable of making our own decisions. Not one.

Not people as in politicians. More so the fans. And obviously not a big amount. I know three who I constantly argue with about it say we couldn't run our own country. Lunacy if you ask me. And sheer ignorance. Obviously you can't apply that to everyone though

[allmodcons]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I havent heard anybody from the pro-union side saying we aren't capable of making our own decisions. Not one.

No politician on the pro union side is going to say that outright, but the fact remains that a fair number of voters will vote No because they don't think Scotland, as a small Independent State, is capable of running it's own affairs (i.e. - taking big decisions).

Why do a fair number of voters take this view, might it have something to do with constant scaremongering we get from the pro union side and MSM (i.e. - EU wouldn't want an Independent Scotland, NATO wouldn't want an Independent Scotland, we'd be totally anonymous as part of the UN, ecomony would be 'basket case', without oil revenues, blah, blah, blah)? It's embarrassing. Will it work? Lets wait and see.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No politician on the pro union side is going to say that outright, but the fact remains that a fair number of voters will vote No because they don't think Scotland, as a small Independent State, is capable of running it's own affairs (i.e. - taking big decisions).

Why do a fair number of voters take this view, might it have something to do with constant scaremongering we get from the pro union side and MSM (i.e. - EU wouldn't want an Independent Scotland, NATO wouldn't want an Independent Scotland, we'd be totally anonymous as part of the UN, ecomony would be 'basket case', without oil revenues, blah, blah, blah)? It's embarrassing. Will it work? Lets wait and see.

Why the need to talk down Scots as running scared? I still don't know any Scot who doesn't think we are capable of doing anything we set our minds too. Don't most of us think we invented the modern world? There are plenty of Scots who think that we are better off as part of a larger country. That is a totally different thing and a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold. . Trying to suggest that Scots lack confidence in their own abilities is quite simply insulting and a bizarre viewpoint for anybody who wants us to be a proud Independent nation to take.

[allmodcons]

[QUOTE=marinello59;3834723]Why the need to talk down Scots as running scared? I still don't know any Scot who doesn't think we are capable of doing anything we set our minds too. Don't most of us think we invented the modern world? There are plenty of Scots who think that we are better off as part of a larger country. That is a totally different thing and a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold. . Trying to suggest that Scots lack confidence in their own abilities is quite simply insulting and a bizarre viewpoint for anybody who wants us to be a proud Independent nation to take.[/QUOTE]

I'm not doubting some Scots are confident but, on the otherhand, firmly believe a fair number take what they read and hear as gospel. I've spoken to a number of individuals who are voting No because they 'don't think Scotland could manage on it's own'. You might think this is insulting, I just think it's embarrassing.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25337494


Scotland's council tax will remain frozen for the seventh year running, John Swinney has confirmed.



sooooooperb

I wish they'd raise the council tax and fix the bloody potholes in the roads.

[Hibrandenburg]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I wish they'd raise the council tax and fix the bloody potholes in the roads.

Wish they'd put a mileage tax on those who wear the roads down, then those who don't drive don't have to pay for repairs for those who do.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm not doubting some Scots are confident but, on the otherhand, firmly believe a fair number take what they read and hear as gospel. I've spoken to a number of individuals who are voting No because they 'don't think Scotland could manage on it's own'. You might think this is insulting, I just think it's embarrassing.

So a fair number are unable to think for themselves as well?
Around about half the population of Scotland look likely to vote No. What percentage of them do you think are either unable to think for themselves or think we are simply not capable of running our own affairs?
And what percentage of those voting Yes do you think are unable to think for themselves?
And maybe you could you define the Scottish Cringe because until somebody does so I will go on thinking its a myth. If it does exist it surely affects us all no matter which way we intend voting next year.

[allmodcons]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So a fair number are unable to think for themselves as well?
Around about half the population of Scotland look likely to vote No. What percentage of them do you think are either unable to think for themselves or think we are simply not capable of running our own affairs?
And what percentage of those voting Yes do you think are unable to think for themselves?
And maybe you could you define the Scottish Cringe because until somebody does so I will go on thinking its a myth. If it does exist it surely affects us all no matter which way we intend voting next year.

Are you seriously suggesting that a fair number of voters (on both sides) are not heavily influenced by what the read and hear in/on MSM?

Can I ask which MSM publication openly supports the Yes campaign and how many openly back the No side?

I think a 'fair' proportion will vote 'No' because they think we are not capable of running our own affairs. Can you prove otherwise?

I never brought up the Scottish Cringe. IMO it is a myth too, however, I firmly believe the MSM plays a big part in determining how people perceive things, need I say more than Daily Mail readers.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Are you seriously suggesting that a fair number of voters (on both sides) are not heavily influenced by what the read and hear in/on MSM?

Can I ask which MSM publication openly supports the Yes campaign and how many openly back the No side?

I think a 'fair' proportion will vote 'No' because they think we are not capable of running our own affairs. Can you prove otherwise?

I never brought up the Scottish Cringe. IMO it is a myth too, however, I firmly believe the MSM plays a big part in determining how people perceive things, need I say more than Daily Mail readers.

No.
I think you may believe too much in the power of the media to influence how people will vote. The media doesn't lead opinion, it follows it. (The Sun is a perfect example, it takes a punt on which side will win any particular election and backs it.) My opinion is that the Scottish electorate in the main is far too politically aware to allow themselves to be conned by newspaper editors.
No, you didn't bring up the Scottish cringe, that was another poster. At least we can agree that it doesn't exist.

[Alex Trager]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No.
I think you may believe too much in the power of the media to influence how people will vote. The media doesn't lead opinion, it follows it. (The Sun is a perfect example, it takes a punt on which side will win any particular election and backs it.) My opinion is that the Scottish electorate in the main is far too politically aware to allow themselves to be conned by newspaper editors.
No, you didn't bring up the Scottish cringe, that was another poster. At least we can agree that it doesn't exist.

For me I agree with everything the boy is saying. I have a multi group text set up about Indy now two of the three I talk to reply quite often. If I was to show you the texts you'd be quite surprised at how much they are letting the media influence them.

I swear to you they rubbished the white paper based on no, or virtually no- meaning about two pages- worth of reading.

Now all the things they say to me whenever I look at a no side of things it's like reading their texts back. I wished they would make their OWN opinion up about things. They seem to ignore that each time I bring it up. I beg of them to look into it themselves and make their own opinion up. They simply don't.

So to take an example. The day after the white paper came out I received a text explaining that 'all the papers and news stations I've read/heard have said it is this that and the next thing' I was and am astounded that people can argue so strongly based on opinions of the media. For me the media know where their bread is buttered and they'll stick to it. As he said earlier can you tell us what paper or other source of media supports the yes campaign? Or at least looks at it fairly? I can answer that.


They also tell me how we can't run our own country, mentioning things like the parliament and the trams.

Finally I assure you I don't think that this is the mass reason for no but I think it is naive for you to dismiss it.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

For me I agree with everything the boy is saying. I have a multi group text set up about Indy now two of the three I talk to reply quite often. If I was to show you the texts you'd be quite surprised at how much they are letting the media influence them.

I swear to you they rubbished the white paper based on no, or virtually no- meaning about two pages- worth of reading.

Now all the things they say to me whenever I look at a no side of things it's like reading their texts back. I wished they would make their OWN opinion up about things. They seem to ignore that each time I bring it up. I beg of them to look into it themselves and make their own opinion up. They simply don't.

So to take an example. The day after the white paper came out I received a text explaining that 'all the papers and news stations I've read/heard have said it is this that and the next thing' I was and am astounded that people can argue so strongly based on opinions of the media. For me the media know where their bread is buttered and they'll stick to it. As he said earlier can you tell us what paper or other source of media supports the yes campaign? Or at least looks at it fairly? I can answer that.


They also tell me how we can't run our own country, mentioning things like the parliament and the trams.

Finally I assure you I don't think that this is the mass reason for no but I think it is naive for you to dismiss it.

Is it any more naïve than dismissing the Scottish electorate as unthinking on the strength of a few texts ? If a large number of those voting No are only doing so because they are unthinkingly accepting everything they read in the media then there must be a equal number on the Yes side unthinkingly voting that way because the accept everything they are told by others. There is plenty of decent writing on both sides of the debate if you open your eyes and read the commentary sections of newspapers. Some people only see what they want to see. Maybe it's time to stop making excuses in advance.....''.The media did for us''...........and concentrating more on winning over the don't knows.
I think the Scottish electorate is much more sophisticated than you are willing to give then credit for and it's quite disheartening that there are a few on here who really have no respect for their fellow Scots. I hope it isn't just because they are voting differently from themselves. No matter which way this goes we all have to live with the decision and with each other afterwards.

[Alex Trager]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Is it any more naïve than dismissing the Scottish electorate as unthinking on the strength of a few texts ? If a large number of those voting No are only doing so because they are unthinkingly accepting everything they read in the media then there must be a equal number on the Yes side unthinkingly voting that way because the accept everything they are told by others. There is plenty of decent writing on both sides of the debate if you open your eyes and read the commentary sections of newspapers. Some people only see what they want to see. Maybe it's time to stop making excuses in advance.....''.The media did for us''...........and concentrating more on winning over the don't knows.
I think the Scottish electorate is much more sophisticated than you are willing to give then credit for and it's quite disheartening that there are a few on here who really have no respect for their fellow Scots. I hope it isn't just because they are voting differently from themselves. No matter which way this goes we all have to live with the decision and with each other afterwards.

I don't know if I said 'now I know this is only a few people but it stresses that it does exist' but it if I never then I should have. And if I did then you have completely blown what I was saying out of proportion. I'm not dismissing the whole Scottish electorate under the category I speak of, merely expressing that what the boy above has said DOES exist

[allmodcons]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Is it any more naïve than dismissing the Scottish electorate as unthinking on the strength of a few texts ? If a large number of those voting No are only doing so because they are unthinkingly accepting everything they read in the media then there must be a equal number on the Yes side unthinkingly voting that way because the accept everything they are told by others. There is plenty of decent writing on both sides of the debate if you open your eyes and read the commentary sections of newspapers. Some people only see what they want to see. Maybe it's time to stop making excuses in advance.....''.The media did for us''...........and concentrating more on winning over the don't knows.
I think the Scottish electorate is much more sophisticated than you are willing to give then credit for and it's quite disheartening that there are a few on here who really have no respect for their fellow Scots. I hope it isn't just because they are voting differently from themselves. No matter which way this goes we all have to live with the decision and with each other afterwards.

There is not a single MSM outlet backing a Yes vote. I agree you'll find some decent pro Yes pieces in the likes of the Herald but, that apart, you'll have to move away from MSM to find any media support for a Yes vote. I can name a whole host of pro No newspapers (Daily Record, Daily Mail, P&J, Daily Express, Times, Telegraph, Scotsman) but can't think of any that back the Yes campaign.

With regard to the having 'no respect for my fellow Scots' why would I want to respect anybody who intends to vote No because they believe their own countrymen incapable of running their own affairs?

[marinello59]

allmodcons]There is not a single MSM outlet backing a Yes vote. I agree you'll find some decent pro Yes pieces in the likes of the Herald but, that apart, you'll have to move away from MSM to find any media support for a Yes vote. I can name a whole host of pro No newspapers (Daily Record, Daily Mail, P&J, Daily Express, Times, Telegraph, Scotsman) but can't think of any that back the Yes campaign.
With regard to the having 'no respect for my fellow Scots' why would I want to respect anybody who intends to vote No because they believe their own countrymen incapable of running their own affairs?

I would suggest that the number of No voters who actually believe that nonsense is pretty insignificant. I assume that you do have respect for the vast majority of No voters who will be doing so because, after weighing up all the arguments, they believe we are better off as part of the UK.
You are being disrespectful to the electorate if you think many of us are dumb enough to vote the way a Newspaper editorial tells us to. The debate around the publication of the White Paper was fairly balanced. Support for Independence has actually increased since then hasn't it? Looks like the Scottish electorate is more than capable of making its own mind up. Your bleating about the media would suggest that you think otherwise.
When we collectively decided to give the Tories a kicking we didn't need a newspaper telling us to vote tactically. Result? Westminster Tory MP's were wiped out.
A majority SNP Government at Holyrood was impossible according to the press. Well we didn't listen to that either did we? As I said before the press don't lead, they follow. If opinion polls started to show a major surge in support for a Yes vote then you can bet your bottom dollar that some will shift sides.

[allmodcons]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I would suggest that the number of No voters who actually believe that nonsense is pretty insignificant. I assume that you do have respect for the vast majority of No voters who will be doing so because, after weighing up all the arguments, they believe we are better off as part of the UK.
You are being disrespectful to the electorate if you think many of us are dumb enough to vote the way a Newspaper editorial tells us to. The debate around the publication of the White Paper was fairly balanced. Support for Independence has actually increased since then hasn't it? Looks like the Scottish electorate is more than capable of making its own mind up. Your bleating about the media would suggest that you think otherwise.
When we collectively decided to give the Tories a kicking we didn't need a newspaper telling us to vote tactically. Result? Westminster Tory MP's were wiped out.
A majority SNP Government at Holyrood was impossible according to the press. Well we didn't listen to that either did we? As I said before the press don't lead, they follow. If opinion polls started to show a major surge in support for a Yes vote then you can bet your bottom dollar that some will shift sides.

You make some good points here M59. Not sure where I sit on the 'respect' issue, I have some good mates who will most likely vote No. Them I respect, but those in the No camp who seek to convince others that Scotland is some kind of economic basket case or those on the right (the rule Britannia brigade) I despise.

I qualified my earlier post by saying 'will it work, lets wait and see' and live in hope that, as you rightly point out in the case of the 2011 election, the electorate will (once again) see through the daily anti Independence/anti SNP diatribe of MSM.

[hibeeleicester]

This is simply a once in a lifetime chance. Why wouldn't we want independence?

We are better off WITHOUT them.

[yeezus.]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is simply a once in a lifetime chance. Why wouldn't we want independence?

We are better off WITHOUT them.

By "them" I take it you mean England, Wales and Northern Ireland. I disagree anyway, we have a strong devolved Parliament but also great Labour representation at Westminster