Scottish Independence

[Alex Trager]

Oh and I must add I am a sociology student and in a lecture I was subject to some figures, about eight weeks ago, and this is when I changed my mind. They were all about inequality and poverty btw.

[yeezus.]

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Just posted this on the white paper thread so thought I'd do the same here


I've sat back and read this thread for a few days now, taking in what people are saying and what not. I was very much a man that stood for the no vote before I had a look at what it all actually meant. I have simple views that are easy to follow and for me they are the sole reason that I will vote yes. I have trust In our political parties- can't believe I just said that- to sort out the intricacies that follow of we go independent.
For all those undecided here are my reasons for voting yes.


In 14 of the last 18 elections the Scottish vote has counted for nothing. That is my first reason. I'm thinking why would I want to continue this? Is this a fair system to be part of?

Then I learn that we send £500B roughly per year to Westminster. Fair doos. Then it comes back up £450B, I start to think wait the now? That's not quite right.

Anyway I continue to plod along, and learn that on average and to take the last year on record 2011/12 we paid 10700 in tax per head whereas others in the uk 9000. Now I'm really wondering what on earth is going on here.

Then I find out Scotland has run on average net fiscal profit of 0.2% since 1980. Not a lot huh? No. But I hear that the uk has run itself at a 3% deficit. And now I'm really thinking why am I paying for these people to continue to waste money on things I don't even think we should be involved in. Now I want independence


I also had a yes campaigner at my door last night who I had a great discussion with. To refer to my first reason, it came to my attention in one of the leaflets he have me, with regards to the cuts the government are making 11 out of 57 Scottish mps votes in favour of them. Fair enough, so I assume we didn't take part in te cuts?

Wrong: 324 out 592 in Westminster votes yes for them. And guess what we're now undergoing cuts.


I have lots more reasons if anyone wants to know let me know. Anyway these are my fundamental reasons. Good to hear your points of view on them

According to the IFS, if an independent Scotland were to balance the books over the next 50 odd years, public spending cuts or tax rises are inevitable.

[Alex Trager]

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According to the IFS, if an independent Scotland were to balance the books over the next 50 odd years, public spending cuts or tax rises are inevitable.

Whilst I appreciate your point I feel you are completely missing my point, In fact I know you are missing my point

[Northernhibee]

Voting no as the propsals put forward aren't affordable at all and would bankrupt the country. Nearly every question asked on important issues has remained unanswered and Salmond still adds pie in the sky ideas to his wish list for an independent Scotland.

Salmond is a very dangerous and deluded man.

[yeezus.]

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Whilst I appreciate your point I feel you are completely missing my point, In fact I know you are missing my point

Fair enough, my apologies, I was trying to address your point on cuts.

[green glory]

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Voting no as the propsals put forward aren't affordable at all and would bankrupt the country. Nearly every question asked on important issues has remained unanswered and Salmond still adds pie in the sky ideas to his wish list for an independent Scotland. Salmond is a very dangerous and deluded man.

I take it you've read the white paper in its entirety to come to that conclusion?

[Northernhibee]

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I take it you've read the white paper in its entirety to come to that conclusion?

The Beano would quite frankly be a more worthwhile read than that load of propaganda - the fact is that we can't pay for all these things Salmond is promising.

[Alex Trager]

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Fair enough, my apologies, I was trying to address your point on cuts.

No problem man, as I said I was trying to highlight the fact our vote counts for almost nothing

[yeezus.]

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The Beano would quite frankly be a more worthwhile read than that load of propaganda - the fact is that we can't pay for all these things Salmond is promising.

The IFS has predicted that Scotland will face a "fiscal gap" of 1.9% of the national income in comparison to 0.8% for the rest of the UK. With an ageing population and declining North Sea oil and gas revenues (to account for 2.2% of national income by 2017/18 according to the OBR) I agree with you - how can we afford everything that he has promised!?

[carnoustiehibee]

Happy Independence Day Albania

[Just Alf]

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The IFS has predicted that Scotland will face a "fiscal gap" of 1.9% of the national income in comparison to 0.8% for the rest of the UK. With an ageing population and declining North Sea oil and gas revenues (to account for 2.2% of national income by 2017/18 according to the OBR) I agree with you - how can we afford everything that he has promised!?

I mentioned it on the other thread, but the same IFS report also said

"...the current system of income taxes and welfare benefits creates serious disincentives to work for many with relatively low potential earning power. The benefit system in particular is far too complex (though the proposed universal credit will help to some extent)...Scottish independence would provide an opportunity to make sensible changes to the tax system in Scotland that successive UK governments have failed to make...the creation of a new state is surely the best opportunity that is ever likely to present itself for radical and rational tax reform, starting from first principles, which has the potential to unlock really significant economic benefits".

..... looks like as usual our politicians cherry pick the bits that fit their argument even if taken as a whole the report actually says something different![

[allmodcons]

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The IFS has predicted that Scotland will face a "fiscal gap" of 1.9% of the national income in comparison to 0.8% for the rest of the UK. With an ageing population and declining North Sea oil and gas revenues (to account for 2.2% of national income by 2017/18 according to the OBR) I agree with you - how can we afford everything that he has promised!?

The IFS themselves admit their projections in this report are 'inherently uncertain and could evolve differently if Scotland were independent rather than part of the UK; in addition they could be substantially affected by the policies chosen by the government of an independent Scotland'.

The whole point of independence is to equip Scotland with the competitive powers required to make the most of our vast natural resources and human talent and to follow a better path than the current Westminster system which, incidentally, the IFS report - and its projections - are based on.

[heretoday]

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If we vote "no", will Scotland's position in the Union be stronger, or weaker? It's like Tam Dayell said, you can't go half way down the road to independence.

I'd say our position is pretty strong as things stand. We have a parliament.

[tcm1875]

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Am I right in thinking that the Queen will still remain Head of State after Independence?

What's that all about?

Maybe be be incorrect, is she not queen Elizabeth I of Scotland and II of England?

[ballengeich]

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I'd say our position is pretty strong as things stand. We have a parliament.

with minimal ability to take macroeconomic decisions.

[hibby rae]

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Maybe be be incorrect, is she not queen Elizabeth I of Scotland and II of England?

That's correct.

[TariqE]

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That's correct.

It is correct. But it's immaterial.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I might not be directing my ire towards the correct group of people, but this is a bugbear I have with the SNP/Scottish Executive,,,,the lack of a plan B for each and every point it has made in the white paper.

Perhaps a little OTT for me to expect such things, but there is a rather important referendum on the horizon, we rarely get 'absolutes' from politicians but lately it's 'we will do this' and 'we will get that',,,but what if the promises made re EU, currency etc are beyond the powers of an independent Scotland? Where would an elected Scotland be if the £ was not an option, are we better/worse or the same?

Whilst I'm on my soap box, even the abolition of trident from the Clyde has softened from 'it will go' to something like 'it will go as soon as as safely and responsibly achieved',,,,not quite a flip-flop, certainly a flip!

There is no way anyone can stop us using the £. Various pegged currencies exist or have existed outside of currency unions. The Irish punt was pegged to sterling from the 30s to the late 70s.

[green glory]

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There is no way anyone can stop us using the £. Various pegged currencies exist or have existed outside of currency unions. The Irish punt was pegged to sterling from the 30s to the late 70s.

The Bank of England has already agreed to start basic negotiations with the Scottish Government with regards to currency union.

[hibby rae]

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It is correct. But it's immaterial.

Couldn't agree more. I'm firmly republican.

[green glory]

Great to see a big pro indy presence around ER on Saturday. Four different groups by my reckoning.

Hibs Yes, Jags Yes, Edinburgh North and Leith Yes and Radical Independence.

Nice bit of co-operation between rival supporters.

[yeezus.]

Worrying from an anti-independence perspective (http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8520) YES is up 3 points from September and still makes me think the referendum is going to be tough to call.

[RyeSloan]

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Worrying from an anti-independence perspective (http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8520) YES is up 3 points from September and still makes me think the referendum is going to be tough to call.

Yes 34
No 57

And you suggest that is worrying from an anti independence perspective?

Considering the coverage the white paper received I would be worried if I was running the yes campaign and that's the size of the polling bump afterwards.

[Alex Trager]

Similar to what was posted earlier in the thread about the report on oil but here it is on video. Have a gander guys. http://youtu.be/Jg-nK_lhtfc

[yeezus.]

New YouGov poll for the Times has the following results:

YES 33%, NO 52%.

[Hibercelona]

I really can't get my head around why most Scottish folk wouldn't want us to be an independent country.

I see talk about us not being capable of making "big decisions". Well perhaps if we weren't in a union where we allowed people from another country to make all the "big decisions" for us, we would learn to make our own "big decisions". No?

[yeezus.]

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I really can't get my head around why most Scottish folk wouldn't want us to be an independent country.

I see talk about us not being capable of making "big decisions". Well perhaps if we weren't in a union where we allowed people from another country to make all the "big decisions" for us, we would learn to make our own "big decisions". No?

But people from another country don't make all the big decisions for us. We have a fully elected Scottish Parliament and 50 odd MP's from Scotland representing us at Westminster. Also, I'm not sure that many on the pro-union side say we aren't capable...

[marinello59]

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But people from another country don't make all the big decisions for us. We have a fully elected Scottish Parliament and 50 odd MP's from Scotland representing us at Westminster. Also, I'm not sure that many on the pro-union side say we aren't capable...

I havent heard anybody from the pro-union side saying we aren't capable of making our own decisions. Not one.

[marinello59]

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Great to see a big pro indy presence around ER on Saturday. Four different groups by my reckoning.

Hibs Yes, Jags Yes, Edinburgh North and Leith Yes and Radical Independence.

Nice bit of co-operation between rival supporters.

If People who like Celery Yes join in I might be impressed.

[yeezus.]

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I havent heard anybody from the pro-union side saying we aren't capable of making our own decisions. Not one.

Fair enough, I guess I'm not either. I get the impression that the Yes side are portraying Scotland as a "victim". I find it quite irritating.