Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Caversham Green]

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A year long signing embargo?

Sign as many players as you want for coming season. No signings in 4 week january window. Line up as many out of contract players to sign on Sept 1st next season. It will be as effectual as the SPl's discredited 10 point penalty for entering administration.

Good work Mr Regan.

The alternative is to impose the embargo now, which would mean (according to Green et al) Sevco don't have enough players to field a squad and after injuries and suspensions kick in they might not even have eleven starters. That would render the membership transfer pointless and potentially reckless since Sevco may not be able to fulfil their fixtures.

The SFA can't and shouldn't legislate for spending power or the ability to attract players so if Sevco can attract a higher quality of player than other Div 3 clubs then that's life. It means they have to spend it all now though and I don't see that they have a huge amount of cash to spare.

I think down-the-slope says it pretty well up there anyway.

[BarneyK]

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Yes, sorry Caversham Green but this 'we've been punished enough' slant is bizarre.

Consequences and punishments are very different things.

They've not been punished at all yet.

Asides from the 10 points (a joke) they have not been punished. That said, I'm of a mind to let them get on with it - transfer embargo and all - and wait for the SPL investigation into double contracts. If they (the Oldco) are found guilty of this then any Titles and/or Trophies for this period should be stripped from them. Apart from that though, let's just leave Newco to get on with it. If creditors are then able to sue them for whatever they can get, fair play to them.

[BarneyK]

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Neither would I - But to repeat myself that would require the members to agree....once Ranger FC (IA) are liquidated then they can no longer vote and so the 11v1 can be tabled to ensure that 'cartels' within the membership are harder

Yeah but on this occasion I think the members would all agree. We have all been looking for this larger league for years now, and given some time would have elapsed, I think the SPL chairmen would see it as an easier deal to push through. To be honest, I don't think it'd be a bad idea. It would mean that NewHuns would have to sign players now for a potential "Championship" assault next season though.

[jgl07]

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The alternative is to impose the embargo now, which would mean (according to Green et al) Sevco don't have enough players to field a squad and after injuries and suspensions kick in they might not even have eleven starters. That would render the membership transfer pointless and potentially reckless since Sevco may not be able to fulfil their fixtures.

This is nonsense. They can sign as many under-18 players as they wish. They still have healthy numbers on the books and could be more than competitive in SFL3 as things stand.

[Caversham Green]

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This is nonsense. They can sign as many under-18 players as they wish. They still have healthy numbers on the books and could be more than competitive in SFL3 as things stand.

But that means a signing embargo is pointless anyway, even if it started now. Indeed starting it now means it would end in time for them to make signings for the start of the 2013-14 season when they would expect to be in the second division. Instead if what you say is true they are going to be wasting money signing players they don't need now.

[jgl07]

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But that means a signing embargo is pointless anyway, even if it started now. Indeed starting it now means it would end in time for them to make signings for the start of the 2013-14 season when they would expect to be in the second division. Instead if what you say is true they are going to be wasting money signing players they don't need now.

Indeed. You could argue that it is to the advantage of Green as it will placate the support who would otherwise be critical of failure to sign name players. This will help Rangers meet FFP targets for when they are eligible for Europan Football in three years tie.

[BarneyK]

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We assume that BDO will claim the money on behalf of RFC, since Davis didn't transfer his contract to Sevco.

They have agreed the fee with Charles Green, so one would assume it's NewHun that'll be claiming the money. As per http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18937843

[johnrebus]

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We assume that BDO will claim the money on behalf of RFC, since Davis didn't transfer his contract to Sevco.

Hmmmm.

Makes you wonder why Southampton are paying a fee though?

Davis is a free agent under employment law. You would think that a club - especially one like Soton, who almost when to the wall themselves not so long ago - would know the rules?

[BarneyK]

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Hmmmm.

Makes you wonder why Southampton are paying a fee though?

Davis is a free agent under employment law. You would think that a club - especially one like Soton, who almost when to the wall themselves not so long ago - would know the rules?

The suggestion is that they didn't want any delay in his registration. I'm not sure that's worth the alleged £800k, mind

[down-the-slope]

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Yeah but on this occasion I think the members would all agree. We have all been looking for this larger league for years now, and given some time would have elapsed, I think the SPL chairmen would see it as an easier deal to push through. To be honest, I don't think it'd be a bad idea. It would mean that NewHuns would have to sign players now for a potential "Championship" assault next season though.

So do I - its what we mostly all want - but the structure would be agreed with time and a position of relative strength in terms of financial splits / TV / etc etc..

I would hope that once we get playing football then the conversations and engagement with our club can move on to getting feedback on what we as a support want in terms of league reconstruction, and lobbying
for that opinion to be heard in a manner that is more constructive than what we have had to do in this unwanted situation

[Caversham Green]

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Yes, sorry Caversham Green but this 'we've been punished enough' slant is bizarre.

Consequences and punishments are very different things.

They've not been punished at all yet.

I'm not saying they've been punished enough though, I'm saying they should be punished for what they've done and been found guilty of rather than for being able to sign better players than every one else. The original punishment imposed by an independent tribunal was a year-long signing embargo (along with a fine) and that was considered sufficient at the time. That embargo now stands subject to a six-week window which, if my debate with jgl07 is anything to go by, is pointless. They have not been found guilty of anything else yet for them to be punished more than that.

[BarneyK]

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So do I - its what we mostly all want - but the structure would be agreed with time and a position of relative strength in terms of financial splits / TV / etc etc..

I would hope that once we get playing football then the conversations and engagement with our club can move on to getting feedback on what we as a support want in terms of league reconstruction, and lobbying
for that opinion to be heard in a manner that is more constructive than what we have had to do in this unwanted situation

Agreed. We no longer have to pander to any 11-1 voting nonsense so let's do it right, and if it means that the avenue for a NewHun re-entry into the SPL potentially moves ahead by a year, so what.

[johnrebus]

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The suggestion is that they didn't want any delay in his registration. I'm not sure that's worth the alleged £800k, mind

So Newco receive nearly a million quid for a player they do not actually own? Another million quid that will not go anywhere near any oldco creditor.

Surely this is a straightforward employment law issue, yet the SFA/EUFA/ FIFA cannot resolve this without weeks of deliberation?


Brian Rix would have been proud to have written such a farce.

[Offside Trap]

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We assume that BDO will claim the money on behalf of RFC, since Davis didn't transfer his contract to Sevco.

But Green/Newco don't accept that Davis' objection to TUPE had any legal validity. So Green's view is that Davis' contract did transfer to Newco...and therefore he pockets the Southampton dosh. Still find it utterly bizarre why Southampton would hand over reported £800k when Green clearly is wrong however.

[BarneyK]

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So Newco receive nearly a million quid for a player they do not actually own? Another million quid that will not go anywhere near any oldco creditor.

Surely this is a straightforward employment law issue, yet the SFA/EUFA/ FIFA cannot resolve this without weeks of deliberation?


Brian Rix would have been proud to have written such a farce.

Can only assume that in spite of what has been previously written, he did agree to transfer his contract - possibly on the understanding that Newco would agree to sell him (probably with the fee to Southampton having already been agreed in principle).

[Offside Trap]

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So Newco receive nearly a million quid for a player they do not actually own? Another million quid that will not go anywhere near any oldco creditor.

Surely this is a straightforward employment law issue, yet the SFA/EUFA/ FIFA cannot resolve this without weeks of deliberation?


Brian Rix would have been proud to have written such a farce.

I agree - I don't understand the delay with the SFA's Arbitration Panel being convened to look at this. More fundamentally, I don't quite follow how/why this Arbitration Panel is the decision making body here, ie:

- At the risk of sounding like Fat Sally, who will be on this SFA convened Panel....and are they qualified to correctly opine on employment contract law and TUPE regulations?

- Where does this Arbitration Panel sit in Employment Law. Why is the dispute resolution process here not like any other employment relationship, ie through an Employment Tribunal? If I was the PFA, that's where I would be going now because it is a slam dunk that the contracts did not transfer. Newco didn't consult properly per TUPE regs and the ET chair would 100% rule in the objecting players' favour and against Green.

[Brando7]

McCoist u can gFT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18938991

Think he is forgetting the difference between oldco n newco

"And the manager added: "It is important to remember we have already had a 10 point deduction from the SPL, lost our Champions League place for finishing second last season, had a £160,000 fine, been refused entry to the SPL, been relegated to Division Three and lost the majority of our first-team squad - yet still the governing body has chosen to impose further sanctions. "

Sorry but i see it as the following

10 Point decuction - OLDCO (for going into administration)
lost our Champions League place - OLDCO (for going into liquidation)
had a £160,000 fine - OLDCO (for going into administration)
been refused entry to the SPL - NEWCO (Cause you cant just start a new team in the big league)
been relegated to Division Three (OLDCO (kicked out league for going into liquidation so u were not relegated you were granted access to play football as NEWCO where every club should start)
lost the majority of our first-team squad - OLDCO (for going into liquidation)

I'm happy the way everything has turned out but the title stripping would be the icing on the cake for me

[Just Alf]

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Agreed. We no longer have to pander to any 11-1 voting nonsense so let's do it right, and if it means that the avenue for a NewHun re-entry into the SPL potentially moves ahead by a year, so what.

This.


With oldco\newco out of the picture for now at least we can discuss a new set up that approaches what WE want rather than one all but imposed on us.

[Kaiser1962]

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Someone posted they need 40000 season ticket holders at £200 each to bring in enough just to run ibrox and murray park, apparently it takes £8m a year to run them?

If this is true, thats a lot of folk they need before they start to make loses on wages? As i say, if thats true, then someone must be putting money in somewhere?

Rangers costs, excluding wages, were over £23m per season (on average). Bearing in mind that Lloyds bank had a huge say for about three seasons one could surmise that a lot of the waste had aleady been expunged.

That said should they manage to even half those costs they would still require a greater income than any SPL club bar Celtic. Only time will tell if it can be done or not but I suspect that they will struggle a bit unless someone is prepared to throw money at them in teh short term.

Since February 14th we have all been told that Rangers would not go bust, the CVA would be accepted, they would not get kicked out the SPL, they would go straight into div 1, no way would they get busted all the way to div 3 and they would get off with everything. At times, reading Hibs Net, you might have thought that Rod Petrie was a bigger villain in all this than Rangers themselves.

All that can be said is that as this process has run it's course Rangers have been clattered every step of the way, in fact I struggle to think of an instance when things have gone IN their favour. And rightly so IMO.

We still have the outcome of the BTC to be announced and also the matter of double contracts to be resolved. I for one would not stop laughing, ever, if both these decisions went in their favour and there had been no need to enter administration in the first place.

Whatever the outcome, Rangers or not Rangers, this still has a bit of a way to go.

[jonty]

Rangers manager Ally McCoist defiant over title losses

Full article : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18938991

Ally McCoist
has sent a defiant message to the Scottish Premier League, saying Rangers will
"never accept" being stripped of any of their titles.

The SPL is pressing for more sanctions to be handed out to the new Rangers
before they are allowed to play in Division Three this season.

Rangers are being investigated for alleged undisclosed payments to players
between 2001 and 2010.

"I will not be accepting any talk of stripping titles," said McCoist.

"That is something we will never accept and everyone at the club shares this
view."

If you dont want the punishments that go with the old membership Ally, then toddle off and play in the juniors until you can meet the league requirements.

[lapsedhibee]

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Rangers manager Ally McCoist defiant over title losses

Full article : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18938991

Really - I mean really - how thick would you have to be to think, at this stage, after all that's gone on, that you can still dictate what's acceptable and what's not acceptable as your punishment?

[BarneyK]

Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug
#Rangers want #SPL to drop their investigation into dual contracts as part of 5 way agreement on #SFA membership #BBCSport

Dear Oh Dear.

[Northernhibee]

:giruy::giruy::giruy::giruy::giruy::giruy::giruy:: giruy::giruy:

Never thought that was enough :giruy: that could be used to describe my feelings towards those lot, but every time they surprise me.

[BarneyK]

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Really - I mean really - how thick would you have to be to think, at this stage, after all that's gone on, that you can still dictate what's acceptable and what's not acceptable as your punishment?

They don't have a say in it, if they are stripped of titles there's not a thing they can do about it. Mere sabre rattling.

[VickMackie]

How the hell can they be allowed to use this as a chip in any way.

You're not stripping out titles or, erm, our newly set up club won't play in your set up. Erm, okay then.

The investigation should not be dropped.

[GordonHFC]

In what other form of business would the wrongdoers dictate their own punishment. Tell them you accept what we give you or **** off. No negotiations. These Neanderthals don't deserve a licence anyway.

[BarneyK]

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How the hell can they be allowed to use this as a chip in any way.

You're not stripping out titles or, erm, our newly set up club won't play in your set up. Erm, okay then.

The investigation should not be dropped.

The more you think about it, the more outrageous the mere suggestion becomes. Muppets of the highest water.

[jonty]

he's going to end up with a few more charges against him at this rate.
I wouldnt be surprised if they ended up suspended for a year, then back in to a restructured top division.

One things for sure - we wouldnt be in the place we are now without the fans having their say - clubs and the SFA/SPL/SFL would have done as they'd wanted.

[ScottB]

I think we face a real problem here, and it is largely of the media's doing.

They have lied to the Rangers fans throughout, note how they are continually described as being relegated from the SPL, relegated to SFL3, banned from Europe etc etc painting them all as punishments.

They aren't punishments of course. We have all figured that out.

However, for I'm sure a very large number of Rangers fans, they are just taking in what the media is telling them. They believe these things to be punishments, they have been sold a story that they are the same club and they have ran with it.

With this in mind, that is why they are now going crazy at the 'evil, ridiculous, further punishments' because the hacks of spun them the story that they've suffered enough, I can fully see why they are going crazy.


And the problem for the wider game is, this has not been handled in anything like a proper manner. If it had been, we'd have a chance of the new Rangers one day making it back, having accepted its misdeeds and moved on. Instead, Rangers will eventually return, even more bitter, even more bile fuelled, its 'lunatic fringe' riven with hatred for every club and every governing body in the land.

It's not going to end well, frankly.

[Onion]

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I think we face a real problem here, and it is largely of the media's doing.

They have lied to the Rangers fans throughout, note how they are continually described as being relegated from the SPL, relegated to SFL3, banned from Europe etc etc painting them all as punishments.

They aren't punishments of course. We have all figured that out.

However, for I'm sure a very large number of Rangers fans, they are just taking in what the media is telling them. They believe these things to be punishments, they have been sold a story that they are the same club and they have ran with it.

With this in mind, that is why they are now going crazy at the 'evil, ridiculous, further punishments' because the hacks of spun them the story that they've suffered enough, I can fully see why they are going crazy.


And the problem for the wider game is, this has not been handled in anything like a proper manner. If it had been, we'd have a chance of the new Rangers one day making it back, having accepted its misdeeds and moved on. Instead, Rangers will eventually return, even more bitter, even more bile fuelled, its 'lunatic fringe' riven with hatred for every club and every governing body in the land.

It's not going to end well, frankly.

So, basically no change there then, just more of them