Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Barney McGrew]

They're now talking to Dean Shiels. Let's see if his father accuses him of lack of ambition now.

They're also after Steve Jennings.

[Caversham Green]

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Nice words Cav but if Rangers are 'accepting' the appellate tribunals punishment of a transfer embargo it should be backdated to the original panel's decision date.

Just another backroom agreement with Regan and co to the benefit of Rangers and fortunately for Sevco they don't need other clubs to vote on this decision.

I realise people may start to be getting punishment fatigue but I believe this will just be the start of them 'going easy' on Rangers and fully expect them to be winging their way to a top tier structure debt free very soon and pissing all over the rest of us so don't go soft now Cav.

I think there was always going to be a need for compromise somewhere along the line - 'Rangers' are one of the two biggest forces in Scottish football and we were never going to change that in a few months. In fact I think trying to change it would have done the game even more damage than it has already suffered. For me (and I suspect many others at the time) the compromise of allowing them into the SFL despite arguably not meeting the financial criteria seemed a reasonable one. The fact that the SFA have gone further and imposed a sanction on Sevco for Rangers FC's crimes is more than I expected. Sevco's argument is that imposing the embargo immediately would simply kill 'Rangers' off and, while we may all see that as desirable, it's not what the SFA are there for.

Sevco/Rangers have and will continue to have massive running costs - the upkeep and rates etc on Ibrox and Murray Park - and even if their crowds stay high, the income will be nothing like what it was in the SPL. And of course Charley and his dodgy mates are in it to make money not spend it, so I can't see huge amounts of cash sloshing about Ibrox.

Either way, 'Rangers' are a much weaker club than they were at the start of the year, and it's up to the SPL clubs to make the most of that to ensure that when they do get back into the top flight they don't piss all over the rest of us. We should not be expecting the SFA to do that for us.

[hibeequinn]

honestly why would players that are easily better than spl material sign for a division 3 cheating **** of a team a dont understand football anymore we should try offering sandazza and shiels a contract and possibly jennings to the players must now know that the league is open to anyone now that the current buns are no longer there nice to see griffiths back enjoyed watching him last season apart from his abuse to the fans but hey

[Spike Mandela]

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I think there was always going to be a need for compromise somewhere along the line - 'Rangers' are one of the two biggest forces in Scottish football and we were never going to change that in a few months. In fact I think trying to change it would have done the game even more damage than it has already suffered. For me (and I suspect many others at the time) the compromise of allowing them into the SFL despite arguably not meeting the financial criteria seemed a reasonable one. The fact that the SFA have gone further and imposed a sanction on Sevco for Rangers FC's crimes is more than I expected. Sevco's argument is that imposing the embargo immediately would simply kill 'Rangers' off and, while we may all see that as desirable, it's not what the SFA are there for.

Sevco/Rangers have and will continue to have massive running costs - the upkeep and rates etc on Ibrox and Murray Park - and even if their crowds stay high, the income will be nothing like what it was in the SPL. And of course Charley and his dodgy mates are in it to make money not spend it, so I can't see huge amounts of cash sloshing about Ibrox.

Either way, 'Rangers' are a much weaker club than they were at the start of the year, and it's up to the SPL clubs to make the most of that to ensure that when they do get back into the top flight they don't piss all over the rest of us. We should not be expecting the SFA to do that for us.

Perhaps, but it won't surprise me to see Rangers sign significantly better players than us for this season prior to their ermmmmmm transfer embargo. Ludicrous.

[grunt]

This is all very well Cav, and you certainly seem to have taken your "voice of reason" pills this morning. So perhaps you can explain to me why Southampton have seen fit to agree a fee for Steve Davis when every other commentator seems to have considered him a free agent having decided aginst joining Green's merry men?

[Spike Mandela]

Rangers will have been given assurances that they won't languish in lower leagues for long. Player negotiations will involve telling players that they expect restructure to speed up their rise to top tier and most players will negotiate release clauses should that not happen. Expect the gravy train to keep on running.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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Rangers will have been given assurances that they won't languish in lower leagues for long. Player negotiations will involve telling players that they expect restructure to speed up their rise to top tier and most players will negotiate release clauses should that not happen. Expect the gravy train to keep on running.

Like the assurances they had that they would be in SFL1?

[CropleyWasGod]

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This is all very well Cav, and you certainly seem to have taken your "voice of reason" pills this morning. So perhaps you can explain to me why Southampton have seen fit to agree a fee for Steve Davis when every other commentator seems to have considered him a free agent having decided aginst joining Green's merry men?

That is one for Southampton (and Coventry too, I should add). My guess is that they did it just to secure the transfer, without any real understanding of the whole RFC/Sevco stuff.

[blackpoolhibs]

Someone posted they need 40000 season ticket holders at £200 each to bring in enough just to run ibrox and murray park, apparently it takes £8m a year to run them?

If this is true, thats a lot of folk they need before they start to make loses on wages? As i say, if thats true, then someone must be putting money in somewhere?

[Spike Mandela]

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Like the assurances they had that they would be in SFL1?

Yes, exactly. A year on, restructure incentives may be more thought out and acceptable to clubs. You don't think the scaremongering and cries to get Rangers in the SPl will go away do you?

The SFA's latest joke about when is a transfer embargo not a transfer embargo should point the way as to how future assurances will go.

[Hibercelona]

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Someone posted they need 40000 season ticket holders at £200 each to bring in enough just to run ibrox and murray park, apparently it takes £8m a year to run them?

If this is true, thats a lot of folk they need before they start to make loses on wages? As i say, if thats true, then someone must be putting money in somewhere?

Thats what i've been saying.

There must be investment coming from somewhere.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if SKY or ESPN were involved in some way. They would want to get Rangers back into the SPL ASAP.

[Spike Mandela]

Unless I am mistaken the ONLY sanctions that the SFA deem fit for Rangers in this wholly mess so far for withholding £14m PAYE etc is a £100,000 fine and a tranfer embargo that starts when the transfer window shuts.

Surely this isn't a punishment but every SPL clubs future business plan

[johnrebus]

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It strikes me that there's an awfy lot of goalpost-shifting going on in this thread.

Go back to February and there were folk saying Rangers would be out of administration and debt-free in a few weeks. Then there were many confident predictions that they would still be in the SPL for the coming season, then it was 'relegation' only to Div 1. At any of those points I suspect the vast majority of us would have been happy for them to be treated as a new club in Div 3 - in fact many were saying exactly that. Now that it's happened we're looking for them to be treated as the same old cheating huns and have an immediate signing ban imposed.

The truth is they are a new club, but they're gaining (or seeking to gain) some of the old club's advantages, so they have to take some of the old club's punishment. Although they inherited some of the old club's players they've lost many more and if McCoist, Murray and Green are to be believed (and I realise that's where my argument fails) they don't have enough to make up a squad. It is not the SFA's job to prevent a duly-elected club from competing and an amnesty from the signing ban seems a reasonable way to allow them to build up a squad of sufficient numbers.

Undoubtedly they will have more financial clout than their fellow minnows and are almost certain to romp Div 3, but we were always aware that would happen. In truth I'm surprised the SFA have decided to impose the ban at all in the circumstances, personally I wouldn't have complained about a clean slate in Div 3 approach - the way a new club should be treated as many were saying earlier in the thread. I can't help feeling that we're getting back to the 'punish them for being Rangers' attitude [/B]and IMO a signing ban that was imposed immediately would prevent them from competing and would therefore be unfair.

Perhaps you have been down in leafy Berkshire too long?

To put it bluntly, I believe it would have been better for the country, not just Scottish Football, if this odious club had been killed off completely.

Having lived amongst these biggoted cretins for over forty years I have taken great delight in watching them squirm and am greatly dissapointed that they still exist at all.

For anyone who thinks they are now being punished too much, just remember what happened to Spartans for the terrible crime of incorrectly completing some paperwork.


Come the end of August the Huns will probably have a better squad than us.

[grunt]

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For anyone who thinks they are now being punished too much, just remember what happened to Spartans for the terrible crime of incorrectly completing some paperwork.

Agreed. This should be at the front of every journalist's mind when they write about Rangers "punishment".

[Hibercelona]

Punished?

They've been handed a life line that would never have been granted to any of us "diddy clubs".

They shouldn't even be in the SFL.

[Smidge]

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That is one for Southampton (and Coventry too, I should add). My guess is that they did it just to secure the transfer, without any real understanding of the whole RFC/Sevco stuff.

Or possibly that they think he will be a key player and don't want any distractions given that they will be fighting to stay up from the get go. Or the potential issue of having to go to a tribunal to settle a fee in due course? Latter aspect obviously ignoring the legal TUPE arguments.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Perhaps you have been down in leafy Berkshire too long?

To put it bluntly, I believe it would have been better for the country, not just Scottish Football, if this odious club had been killed off completely.

Having lived amongst these biggoted cretins for over forty years I have taken great delight in watching them squirm and am greatly dissapointed that they still exist at all.

For anyone who thinks they are now being punished too much, just remember what happened to Spartans for the terrible crime of incorrectly completing some paperwork.


Come the end of August the Huns will probably have a better squad than us.

This is getting to the whole crux of the debate, I reckon. Cav's comments have opened up a whole new discussion..... I agree with him in terms of the rationality of it all. There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of the anti-Rangers stuff is exactly that...anti-Huns and not pro-fairness. I can sympathise with that position too.

Football is an emotional business... and I use those words on purpose. The fascinating bit for me is where those concepts collide.

[Paisley Hibby]

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According to the latest SFA statement "The conditional offer of transfer will now be submitted to the appellate tribunal for its consideration.". So they can, then, still knock that back.??

I think they have to go back to the Tribunal because that's what the Court of Session said had to happen. However, Court of Session also said that a transfer ban was not one of the options open to the Tribunal. My guess is that the SFA will want them to simply confirm the fine and note that a transfer embargo is being imposed on SEVCO through other means. However, as other have pointed out, the Panel is independent. Also, the Panel will not be made up of the same people as last tiem. According to the Scotsman the guy from Spartans has said he now can't take part (because Spartans would potentially benefit from a decision that resulted in the Huns being binned) and Lord Carloway has gone off in the huff at the Court of Session decision. So who knows. This could keep us entertained for a while yet

[Billy Whizz]

Can we not just cancel all their games until they agree then!

[Onion]

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Perhaps, but it won't surprise me to see Rangers sign significantly better players than us for this season prior to their ermmmmmm transfer embargo. Ludicrous.

THIS. More than anything sums up the ludicrous situation we have in the game right now. A 3rd Div team who have never kick a ball, are a product of a previous company with £130 million of defaulted debt, who broke virtually every rule in the game, are able to outspend everyone except their Glasgow cousins. Something's fundamentally wrong with this outcome.

[Barney McGrew]

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Can we not just cancel all their games until they agree then!

That's where we are anyway. They won't get an SFA license Until this is sorted which means they can't play any games at the moment.

[Caversham Green]

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Perhaps you have been down in leafy Berkshire too long?

To put it bluntly, I believe it would have been better for the country, not just Scottish Football, if this odious club had been killed off completely.

Having lived amongst these biggoted cretins for over forty years I have taken great delight in watching them squirm and am greatly dissapointed that they still exist at all.

For anyone who thinks they are now being punished too much, just remember what happened to Spartans for the terrible crime of incorrectly completing some paperwork.


Come the end of August the Huns will probably have a better squad than us.

I had to live with them too before I was banished to this god-forsaken pit of a place (it's full of English people as well as bloody leaves) and I remember being spat on and dodging all sorts of missiles at Ibrox, but the problem is, if you killed off the club they wouldn't just disappear, they'd form a new club and be as bad if not worse than before. In fact that's kinda what has happened.

The problem the SFA have is that the club that broke their rules (as opposed to just being obnoxious) is dead - they have escaped punishment by expiring. They now have a new club (with massive earning potential) laying claim to the old club's status but by the strict letter of the law the new club does not have to answer for the old club's sins, so there's a reasonable agrument for the signing embargo not to stand at all. Instead the SFA have produced a compromise by deferring the original embargo by six weeks - that punishment was deemed sufficient at the time it was imposed on the old club so why is it too lenient when applied to a new club that could arguably escape punishment completely? If Sevco are now to be treated as 'Rangers' they still have to answer for the double contracts accusations, but that hasn't been proven yet, so what I'm saying is that the signing ban is sufficient punishment in the circumstances for the crimes that the old club has been found guilty of, but there should be more to come if more crimes are proven.

However, going back to when there were confident predictions that there would be a 'Rangers' in the SPL for 2012-2013 (and I think you were one of the prophets Mr Rebus) I reckon most of us would have been biting hands off at the offer of Sevco in Div 3 with a year long signing embargo.

As for Spartans, I think their punishment was incredibly harsh, but theirs was a different indiscretion from Rangers/Sevco, so you can't really compare the two, and anyway two wrongs don't make a right.

[down-the-slope]

I think that we have reached a situation that most believed would never happen. 'Rangers' in Div 3 and out of the SPL picture for AT LEAST 3 years.

The fact that the SFA is continuing to ensure the rules are followed (People will say they have tried to do other wise but everything so far has been within / upholding the membership rules) is both right and good.

Even the embargo will have to again be looked at by the appealate tribunal - as it was they who inposed sanction - they may accept 'Rangers' belated acceptance - they may not...but its all within the rules

Lets not forget this punishment is for the Whyte era and non payment of tax in that period

There is still the dual contract issue to be resolved / judged and potential sanctions from that to follow - the sanctions from that could be extreme. The fact they have had to apply for membership transfer and not as a new club is actually adding to the burden for them...

The alternative of going out of business while appealing to a large number is not what this should be about - when Duff and Gray did their worst by risking our club with non-football investments we were left with the fall out to fix...but no one was seriously saying the fans should be left with no club

[Spike Mandela]

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I had to live with them too before I was banished to this god-forsaken pit of a place (it's full of English people as well as bloody leaves) and I remember being spat on and dodging all sorts of missiles at Ibrox, but the problem is, if you killed off the club they wouldn't just disappear, they'd form a new club and be as bad if not worse than before. In fact that's kinda what has happened.

The problem the SFA have is that the club that broke their rules (as opposed to just being obnoxious) is dead - they have escaped punishment by expiring. They now have a new club (with massive earning potential) laying claim to the old club's status but by the strict letter of the law the new club does not have to answer for the old club's sins, so there's a reasonable agrument for the signing embargo not to stand at all. Instead the SFA have produced a compromise by deferring the original embargo by six weeks - that punishment was deemed sufficient at the time it was imposed on the old club so why is it too lenient when applied to a new club that could arguably escape punishment completely? If Sevco are now to be treated as 'Rangers' they still have to answer for the double contracts accusations, but that hasn't been proven yet, so what I'm saying is that the signing ban is sufficient punishment in the circumstances for the crimes that the old club has been found guilty of, but there should be more to come if more crimes are proven.

However, going back to when there were confident predictions that there would be a 'Rangers' in the SPL for 2012-2013 (and I think you were one of the prophets Mr Rebus) I reckon most of us would have been biting hands off at the offer of Sevco in Div 3 with a year long signing embargo.

As for Spartans, I think their punishment was incredibly harsh, but theirs was a different indiscretion from Rangers/Sevco, so you can't really compare the two, and anyway two wrongs don't make a right.

A year long signing embargo?

Sign as many players as you want for coming season. No signings in 4 week january window. Line up as many out of contract players to sign on Sept 1st next season. It will be as effectual as the SPl's discredited 10 point penalty for entering administration.

Good work Mr Regan.

[BarneyK]

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I think that we have reached a situation that most believed would never happen. 'Rangers' in Div 3 and out of the SPL picture for AT LEAST 3 years.

I wouldn't rule out league reconstruction next year - maybe 2 leagues of 16 and 1 of 10 (maybe 12 with a couple of new bodies) - and there you go, Huns back in the 2nd tier for next season.

[Spike Mandela]

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I wouldn't rule out league reconstruction next year - maybe 2 leagues of 16 and 1 of 10 (maybe 12 with a couple of new bodies) - and there you go, Huns back in the 2nd tier for next season.

I wouldn't rule them out of top tier next year. A year to work on scaremongering, armageddon theories and scores of funny handshake backroom deals.

[johnrebus]

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I had to live with them too before I was banished to this god-forsaken pit of a place (it's full of English people as well as bloody leaves) and I remember being spat on and dodging all sorts of missiles at Ibrox, but the problem is, if you killed off the club they wouldn't just disappear, they'd form a new club and be as bad if not worse than before. In fact that's kinda what has happened.

The problem the SFA have is that the club that broke their rules (as opposed to just being obnoxious) is dead - they have escaped punishment by expiring. They now have a new club (with massive earning potential) laying claim to the old club's status but by the strict letter of the law the new club does not have to answer for the old club's sins, so there's a reasonable agrument for the signing embargo not to stand at all. Instead the SFA have produced a compromise by deferring the original embargo by six weeks - that punishment was deemed sufficient at the time it was imposed on the old club so why is it too lenient when applied to a new club that could arguably escape punishment completely? If Sevco are now to be treated as 'Rangers' they still have to answer for the double contracts accusations, but that hasn't been proven yet, so what I'm saying is that the signing ban is sufficient punishment in the circumstances for the crimes that the old club has been found guilty of, but there should be more to come if more crimes are proven.

However, going back to when there were confident predictions that there would be a 'Rangers' in the SPL for 2012-2013 (and I think you were one of the prophets Mr Rebus) I reckon most of us would have been biting hands off at the offer of Sevco in Div 3 with a year long signing embargo.

As for Spartans, I think their punishment was incredibly harsh, but theirs was a different indiscretion from Rangers/Sevco, so you can't really compare the two, and anyway two wrongs don't make a right.

Guilty as charged.

However, much has changed since then, eg. it looked as if they might sneaked through the CVA at that time.

There are so many hooks to hang an argument about the Hun right now, my main one being the waiving of the three year accounts rule for any newco and the apparent refusal to administer the 'right and proper person', stuff - we still do not know who Green's investors are, let alone who really owns Ibrox, the car park and the Milngavie training centre!

Heard on radio today that a fee has been agreed with Soton for Davis. Do we assume that this cash is going to the Newco? Another example of stuffing the hundreds of creditors?

IMHO the very least, 'punishment', that should be handed out to the Hun is a complete ban for at least one season for the mess - or most of it - to be resolved.

[joe breezy]

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Perhaps you have been down in leafy Berkshire too long?

To put it bluntly, I believe it would have been better for the country, not just Scottish Football, if this odious club had been killed off completely.

Having lived amongst these biggoted cretins for over forty years I have taken great delight in watching them squirm and am greatly dissapointed that they still exist at all.

For anyone who thinks they are now being punished too much, just remember what happened to Spartans for the terrible crime of incorrectly completing some paperwork.


Come the end of August the Huns will probably have a better squad than us.

Yes, sorry Caversham Green but this 'we've been punished enough' slant is bizarre.

Consequences and punishments are very different things.

They've not been punished at all yet.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Guilty as charged.

However, much has changed since then, eg. it looked as if they might sneaked through the CVA at that time.

There are so many hooks to hang an argument about the Hun right now, my main one being the waiving of the three year accounts rule for any newco and the apparent refusal to administer the 'right and proper person', stuff - we still do not know who Green's investors are, let alone who really owns Ibrox, the car park and the Milngavie training centre!

Heard on radio today that a fee has been agreed with Soton for Davis. Do we assume that this cash is going to the Newco? Another example of stuffing the hundreds of creditors?

IMHO the very least, 'punishment', that should be handed out to the Hun is a complete ban for at least one season for the mess - or most of it - to be resolved.

We assume that BDO will claim the money on behalf of RFC, since Davis didn't transfer his contract to Sevco.

[down-the-slope]

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I wouldn't rule out league reconstruction next year - maybe 2 leagues of 16 and 1 of 10 (maybe 12 with a couple of new bodies) - and there you go, Huns back in the 2nd tier for next season.

Neither would I - But to repeat myself that would require the members to agree....once Ranger FC (IA) are liquidated then they can no longer vote and so the 11v1 can be tabled to ensure that 'cartels' within the membership are harder