Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[rcarter1]

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Whilst the law is the way it is, that one is a non-starter.

Out of interest as Im not aware of the law on this, why is this not possible?

Even if the law did allow them to forgo the debts, as part of a negotiated re entry to the SPL, they could agree to make extra payments to HMRC (or help with getting the money from the individuals responsible) as a matter of principle. For me this is all contingent on the outcome of the big tax case. The fact that the HMRC have remained quiet on this does raise questions as to whether the appeal was successful. If Rangers were found to be operating legally wrt EBTs, then that side of things drops out the equation. The remaining debts to HMRC and everyone else is easily payable over a long term period and they should be forced to accept that. I know the laws the law, but the game clearly has an opportunity to ensure that one of its members takes its financial operations seriously.

[blackpoolhibs]

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This has been ridiculous for too long but they're pushing it now. Reagan and Doncaster are due to address the SFL clubs, one can only hope it is to announce their resignations.

Hopelessly inept throughout this saga, they have shown themselves to be massively out of touch with the people who matter most in football - the fans.

This whole episode has for me, shown up just how corrupt those running the game at the top of Scottish football are.

The damage they have inflicted on the game is right up there on a par, with the crimes Rangers have committed over the years in my opinion.

Rangers have eventually been caught, but the SFA and the SPL leaders, have tried their hardest to brush it all under the carpet, even when all the evidence is out there to see.

No matter what the outcome of this is, i cant believe many of these people in charge can stay in their positions?

When this is over, no fan be it Rangers or Raith Rover will trust the leaders of our game anymore, and thats a direct result of their actions.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Out of interest as Im not aware of the law on this, why is this not possible?

Even if the law did allow them to forgo the debts, as part of a negotiated re entry to the SPL, they could agree to make extra payments to HMRC (or help with getting the money from the individuals responsible) as a matter of principle. For me this is all contingent on the outcome of the big tax case. The fact that the HMRC have remained quiet on this does raise questions as to whether the appeal was successful. If Rangers were found to be operating legally wrt EBTs, then that side of things drops out the equation. The remaining debts to HMRC and everyone else is easily payable over a long term period and they should be forced to accept that. I know the laws the law, but the game clearly has an opportunity to ensure that one of its members takes its financial operations seriously.

What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

And, you say that RFC can easily repay their non-BTC debts. That's probably about £30-40m.

[rcarter1]

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Not going to diss you, - Cheers! :green grin

The constant drip drip of certain media outlets of impending doom and financial armageddon is meant to hammer you into resignation and Acceptance of their viewpoint. They will kick and scream with their agenda but this is truly Scottish football's Arab spring. The people have spoken. Rangers should be grateful to get Div 3. They and their apologist's know this.

Don't give up, sometimes you just have to do what is right.

I agree that Rangers, Green, the Media, the SPL and Rangers apologists have been scaremongering their heads off. I am for one not in the slightest bit concerned about lost revenue from gates, or even renegotiated TV deals. Scottish football has always, and will probably always operate in much reduced financial conditions as compared with England and other countries. The Clubs if seriously pushed, could ask THEIR players just as Rangers did, to accept reductions in contracts to see them through. Players wages is the only real reason why clubs are in the position they are in. Ive had to accept for a long time that Messi, Silva, etc are not coming to Hibs anytime soon. All I want to see is a team of half decent footballers that actually give a damn on the pitch. You don't need millions to get that.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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So the Daily Ranger publishes more complete nonsense and folk are ready to go on a witch hunt / hang themselves...

If the story turns up in a newspaper that isn't barely worthy for use as toilet paper, written by a journalist capable of more than 'why yes Rangers PR person, I'll just copy and paste that story in for you now' then maybe I'll take an interest...


Wouldn't even trust the date on the front cover!

This is the "paper" that described Hugh Dallas' car printed where he lived photos of him beside car withlicense plate. Then his windows got panned (by his neighbours tho' but still).
The reported? Didn't have the b*lls to put his name to the article.
Also had a hairy baby competition!

[Caversham Green]

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How?

There's nothing definite either way; no-one from that committee has said anything about anything; their name is on nothing. My name isn't on it either, nor is yours.

No-one is even sure where the crappiest presentation document came from, other than Doncasters mitts appear to have been on it – although we have seen in the past Celtc fans haven't been beyond doctoring things to apportion blame as suits them from time to time.

To be fair here, Doncaster's name was only on the properties of a Word document containing the voting structure of the SPL, which is to be expected. There was no direct link to the dodgy prospectus.

[rcarter1]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283135]What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

I take the point, In this instance however the SPL could then return to their no vote regards SPL, and leave them to the whims of the SFL - in the hope that the SFL1 nonsense doesn't go through. I suppose what I would want to see is the SPL making a precondition of their yes vote a contracted commitment for Rangers to pay up.

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

Thats fair enough, Im just concerned that they are likely to know the answer by now. If so why the silence? Its giving me the herby jeebies, as if HMRC lose the case, they will have shot themselves not so much in the foot, but in the face. This was supposed to be their big first precedent case to take on football.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=rcarter1;3283142]

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What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

I take the point, In this instance however the SPL could then return to their no vote regards SPL, and leave them to the whims of the SFL - in the hope that the SFL1 nonsense doesn't go through. I suppose what I would want to see is the SPL making a precondition of their yes vote a contracted commitment for Rangers to pay up.

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

Thats fair enough, Im just concerned that they are likely to know the answer by now. If so why the silence? Its giving me the herby jeebies, as if HMRC lose the case, they will have shot themselves not so much in the foot, but in the face. This was supposed to be their big first precedent case to take on football.

I'm not sure that they do know the answer. As I understand it, every instance of alleged EBT-mismanagement had to be examined individually. That takes time.

Also, it is possible that RFC's tax advisers have stopped all work on the case, as they won't have been paid. That stops the whole process for a while. In that eventuality, HMRC will confirm the assessments.

[flash]

http://www.stranraerfc.org/

Now that's a statement.

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=rcarter1;3283142]

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What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

I take the point, In this instance however the SPL could then return to their no vote regards SPL, and leave them to the whims of the SFL - in the hope that the SFL1 nonsense doesn't go through. I suppose what I would want to see is the SPL making a precondition of their yes vote a contracted commitment for Rangers to pay up.

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

Thats fair enough, Im just concerned that they are likely to know the answer by now. If so why the silence? Its giving me the herby jeebies, as if HMRC lose the case, they will have shot themselves not so much in the foot, but in the face. This was supposed to be their big first precedent case to take on football.

I wonder if HMRC/Tribunal have just dropped the case. There's little point in spending time and money completing the verdict when the offending company is about to liquidate - the cost of completion could well exceed any addtional revenue from a finite liquidation pot, and they'd just be taking it from other creditors in any case. As I understand it the FTT was about examining individual detail so there's no precedent to be had either.

[CropleyWasGod]

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http://www.stranraerfc.org/

Now that's a statement.

Isn't half.

Sometimes, I think some of the media think that "diddy teams" are run by diddy people. They forget that those teams are run by people who often have businesses themselves, but who often do these things in their spare time, or who have "no idea how the world works". I find that patronising.

Stranraer's statement is measured, considered and couched intelligently in a way that no-one can misunderstand. It also has an underlying message that says "don't effing patronise us."

Brilliant.

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283147]

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I'm not sure that they do know the answer. As I understand it, every instance of alleged EBT-mismanagement had to be examined individually. That takes time.

Also, it is possible that RFC's tax advisers have stopped all work on the case, as they won't have been paid. That stops the whole process for a while. In that eventuality, HMRC will confirm the assessments.

That's almost a certainty is it not? The outcome of the case is virtually irrelevant now and they'd just be incurring professional fees for no benefit.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=Caversham Green;3283151]

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I wonder if HMRC/Tribunal have just dropped the case. There's little point in spending time and money completing the verdict when the offending company is about to liquidate - the cost of completion could well exceed any addtional revenue from a finite liquidation pot, and they'd just be taking it from other creditors in any case. As I understand it the FTT was about examining individual detail so there's no precedent to be had either.

You could be right.

On the precedent thing, I don't think that FTT verdicts have any precedent value in law. I think this was more about "sending a message".

That said, HMRC may keep the pot boiling for a little longer. IF the SPL/SFL both bomb Sevco out... and CG exercises his right to renege on the deal (has he paid yet? )...that changes things completely again.

[Jim44]

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http://www.stranraerfc.org/

Now that's a statement.

Articulate, honest and transparent. ............ Everything that document wasn't. I think Stranraer have just become my second favourite Scottish team.

[greenginger]

[QUOTE=Caversham Green;3283154]

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That's almost a certainty is it not? The outcome of the case is virtually irrelevant now and they'd just be incurring professional fees for no benefit.

I thought the HMRC were getting BDO in to pursue previous directors etc. A confirmed sum for the big tax case would be essential I would have thought.

[Lincoln Green]

Saw this over on Pie and Bovril posted by DAFC

For the last twenty years or so the Red Top papers and the majority of TV pundits have all had one agenda - living off the Old Firm.
If anything gets in their way they will attack it so that they can continue their easy life whereby they feed the hundreds of thousands of Old Firm 'fans' non stories about who their clubs might sign or what they are up to in training whilst massive stories like Livingston, Gretna and Hearts get no press or bad press.
The stance of Keevins, Traynor, Jackson and the gang shows just how bad it has become lately. They are all panicking at loss of income and having to do some real journalism for a change.

I wonder how many of them knew about the impending problems at Ibrox but were too busy kissing Murray's arse so that they could be spoonfed stories every week?

I have had similar feelings to this for a long time now. Does anyone one on here think that how the media treats Hibs, etc and all the other teams who went public on their opposition to Newco FC Govan will change as a result?

I'm probably being paranoid but even the BBC intially seemed to me to put a very positive spin on the survival of Newco FC Govan and have been very guilty of building up the sense of fear that the game in Scotland cannot survive without the huns. Was it me or did Jackie Bird not even show solidarity by wearing blue night after night at the height of the Duff and Phelps nonsense.

Any thoughts??

[Jack]

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What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

And, you say that RFC can easily repay their non-BTC debts. That's probably about £30-40m.

At the moment the newco aren't members of anything; they are not even a football club!

If, as a condition of entry, they are only allowed to join if they accept these sanctions surely they couldn’t then go to court and have them overturned?

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=greenginger;3283177]

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I thought the HMRC were getting BDO in to pursue previous directors etc. A confirmed sum for the big tax case would be essential I would have thought.

That's from the prosecution side though. The point is that RFC no longer have anything to defend as they are about to close down and they shouldn't be incurring fees when the only outcome will be a reduction of the amount available to creditors. If the directors are to be pursued it is for them to fund their defence, not the creditors of Rangers FC.

[CropleyWasGod]

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At the moment the newco aren't members of anything; they are not even a football club!

If, as a condition of entry, they are only allowed to join if they accept these sanctions surely they couldn’t then go to court and have them overturned?

They would, though....

[grunt]

Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaugOn steps of Hampden, Raith Rovers chairman Turnbull Hutton says the game is corrupt. Says he's been lied to, threatened and bullied. #SFL

[rcarter1]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283156]

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You could be right.

On the precedent thing, I don't think that FTT verdicts have any precedent value in law. I think this was more about "sending a message".

That said, HMRC may keep the pot boiling for a little longer. IF the SPL/SFL both bomb Sevco out... and CG exercises his right to renege on the deal (has he paid yet? )...that changes things completely again.

I hope that regardless of how things pan out they do come back with a verdict as it allows Scottish football to resolve the future with a clear understanding of what wrong doings were done - even if the club that did the wrongs no longer legally exist.

I suspect that the judgement is known considering how long ago the appeal hearing was, and they are waiting strategically. If HMRC wins/won, the message is pretty clear to other clubs, If HMRC lost/lose the case, it may be irrelevant to Rangers, but would be in the interests of HMRC to never mention this again. Which is kind of whats happening now..

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

This isn't something that has just happened, it's been going on in the media (papers and TV) for decades, these non stories sell the product and as the ugly sisters have the majority of support in this country it will continue forever, it really annoys me when STV Edinburgh start chirping on about them rather than clubs in the East of Scotland first, I've emailed and complained plenty but the usual stock reply comes back.

Traynor is an erse and he knows it, his fawning over the huns is boak inducing but as said it sells the product, they can drag former players out from all over the world to comment on the Ibrox fiasco but wouldn't and couldn't care less about the rest of Scottish football or what goes on in it.

This will never end in my opinion so we better get used to it.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Then what? Blackmail SFL 3 clubs that no one will go to away cup games against them if they get into Division 3.

Rangers aren't getting into the SPL. That's what everyone wanted and that's what will happen. Whatever happens in the leagues below is upto the people in charge of they clubs, not the SPL clubs.

That would be all well and good if certain executives (and some clubs?) from the SPL weren't attempting to bribe the SFL clubs with tv money and threaten to cut them off outside SPL2 if they vote no.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

The smaller clubs are run by businessmen who have football at the front of their thoughts. Regan and Doncaster are businessmen who have themselves at the front of their thoughts. I can see a stitch up coming and R+D leaving with big handshakes, and the new people coming in, unable to comment about the old regime or undo the changes.

[Lungo--Drom]

It's the first good thing to come out of the 'Clayhool' for many a year and 10/10 to their board for flicking the V to the proHun media and SPL bully boys.

[green glory]

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The smaller clubs are run by businessmen who have football at the front of their thoughts. Regan and Doncaster are businessmen who have themselves at the front of their thoughts. I can see a stitch up coming and R+D leaving with big handshakes, and the new people coming in, unable to comment about the old regime or undo the changes.

If Doncaster in particular can leave by any means, it can only be a good thing.

A hard kick up the arse on the way out would most appropriate.

[Bishop Hibee]

Instead of pursuing Murray, Green etc and hounding Lowell for Celtc's opinion on Sevco, the succulent lamb brigade put the boot into the other clubs with half truths and supposition about how we're all doomed if we don't bow down to new Rangers.

Traynor's comments about Hibs 'getting rid' of Billy Brown is a case in point. I don't buy tabloids but sadly many people do and believe what is written.

Thankfully sites like rangers tax case and Paul McConville's blog put these hacks to shame.

Prepare for anti-non OF stories to increase if sevco are not allowed in to Div1.

[lapsedhibee]

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Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaugOn steps of Hampden, Raith Rovers chairman Turnbull Hutton says the game is corrupt. Says he's been lied to, threatened and bullied. #SFL

Excellent. So far the diddy clubs are coming out best in all of this, and the diddier the better. (We are less diddy and it remains to be seen exactly how well we come out of it.)

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=rcarter1;3283195]

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I hope that regardless of how things pan out they do come back with a verdict as it allows Scottish football to resolve the future with a clear understanding of what wrong doings were done - even if the club that did the wrongs no longer legally exist.

I suspect that the judgement is known considering how long ago the appeal hearing was, and they are waiting strategically. If HMRC wins/won, the message is pretty clear to other clubs, If HMRC lost/lose the case, it may be irrelevant to Rangers, but would be in the interests of HMRC to never mention this again. Which is kind of whats happening now..

The tax tribunal and the 'double contracts' investigation are two separate but connected issues. It's possible that Rangers broke tax laws without breaking the SFA/SPL rules regarding payments to players and vice versa, so the halting of the tax tribunal doesn't mean that the SPL investigation should end. I agree that the latter should continue if only to assess whether any honours need to be annulled.

The tax tribunal was about establishing the quantum of tax that RFC should pay rather than their innocence or guilt and that required examination of each individual case. That's not really worth it when there's no-one to provide information or argue Rangers' side - if I'm right about the tax advisers no longer being retained, but if it was nearly done and dusted they might finish it off in the interests of completeness (is that a word?). There won't be any urgency though. The SPL investigation should be easier though, they only have to establish innocence or guilt and it only really needs one hidden contract to do that. On the face of it Dodds and Boumsong have already provided enough evidence in their public pronouncements.

[mayo hibee]

Twitter reports seem to be suggesting that the SFL clubs are coming out strongly against sevco to sfl1. I'm guessing the SPL chairmen are seeing this coming, hence the reports of late discussions to change the SPL vote to yes.

All those SPL clubs only made those statements last week because they had been told that Sevco would go to SFL1 and they could wash their hands of it and preach about sporting integrity. Now it's not working out we'll see what their true opinions are.

Unfortunately I fear Rod is down there with Regan and Donkey as the most responsible and worst of them in all this. The whole thing is disgusting. SFL3 for Sevco or else Scottish football becomes damaged beyond repair.