Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Spike Mandela]

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Link here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18471197

Looks like Regan is taking charge and is clearly fed up with SPL faffing.

So Mr Regan taking charge by errrrm organising a few meetings . Oh yeah this is the decisive action we need.

Sooner or later one or all sets of authorities will come up with the solution they need which is a punishment for Rangers that looks like a punishment but isn't really a punishment. Pat each other on the back, then carry on as normal and we'll all plod along behind like the good sheep we are.

[Caversham Green]

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Are they wanting to make the top league an 18 team league, something they have battled against saying it wouldn't work?

To be fair I think that's the SPL rather than the SFA that have been saying that. The SPL management is consistently proving itself to be not fit for purpose.

[jgl07]

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"let's just have 2 leagues, demote Der Hun and they can get back into the top flight within a year."..... what a load of bollox.

I would take that one.

And I claim the prize for the 12,000th post!

[The Green Goblin]

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So Mr Regan taking charge by errrrm organising a few meetings . Oh yeah this is the decisive action we need.

Sooner or later one or all sets of authorities will come up with the solution they need which is a punishment for Rangers that looks like a punishment but isn't really a punishment. Pat each other on the back, then carry on as normal and we'll all plod along behind like the good sheep we are.

Judging by a lot of comments on here and from fans of other clubs, that will not be the case. And quite right too.

[The Falcon]

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This is the problem faced by Rangers, the SPL and the SFA.
There is a real danger that this is turning into a 'we all hate Rangers so lets kill them off' while hiding behind the sporting integrity banner.
In two other threads I've asked what the crimes are that Rangers have committed and what punishments are available for these crimes, not what people want to see happen to them. I've not seen a reply to either yet.

Not sure about the punishments but, in football terms, they have bumped Rapid Vienna, Hearts, Dunfermline, Celtic, Dundee United, ICT, SFA and the SPL. They have also paid players through unauthorised and undeclared means which, given the testimony of B.Dodds esquire, amounts to some sort of dual contract as B.Dodds states that he recieved his wages from Rangers and from a non-EBT. While, as is frequently pointed out EBT's are legal, it is clear from Dodds statement that this was not an EBT. Dodds says he recieved his wages, after tax was deducted.

All this was done to gain an unfair advantage over their rivals.

On a more serious note I think they are in serious danger of facing tax evasion charges, given that they were warned about their particular use of EBT's back in 2008. I also think the taxman will be knocking on a number of doors of both former employees and former directors, even current employees, to ask for an explanation of their tax returns and how they came by the funds they did, as cited by Mark Daly (BBC).
They should have paperwork to accompany these payments and I suspect they will also pass the buck right back to Rangers. Campbell Ogilvie, when you consider his involvement at HMFC on top of the now defunct RFC, is in an inceasingly difficult position. As others have pointed out, by the time the liquidators/taxman are finshed I strongly suspect there will be Police involvement and someone, perhaps a number of people, will be looking at a stay in the Big Hoose.

And thats just what we know.

[Offside Trap]

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So Mr Regan taking charge by errrrm organising a few meetings . Oh yeah this is the decisive action we need.

Sooner or later one or all sets of authorities will come up with the solution they need which is a punishment for Rangers that looks like a punishment but isn't really a punishment. Pat each other on the back, then carry on as normal and we'll all plod along behind like the good sheep we are.

Or alternatively Regan is fed up with Doncaster's inaction and is seeking to take accountability for sorting it out. I don't see many running to the front of the queue to grab this mess so the fact that Regan is looking to do so (and he knows is in a lose/lose situation and will get pelters whatever he does) should be welcomed. What (or more to the point who) is the alternative?

[J-C]

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Having spoken to a friend who has worked for HMRC for about 15 years, a few points came up.

1. Rangers could have agreed to pay back all of their debts including the big tax case (ball park 80 Million total) in about 10 years, by using 10m per year of their approximate yearly 30M turnover. This of course would have reduced their wage bills and player quality. They CHOSE not to do this.

2. Liquidation should now result in Duff and Phelps being replaced by an HMRC appointed liquidator. Apparently the liquidator can scrap the Green purchase, and auction off Rangers assets, players, Stadium etc in order to get more than the 5.5 Million. In short Green doesn't have a leg to stand on if an objective liquidator carries out his/her job correctly.

3. HMRC should be in a position after liquidation to chase up individuals - i.e. David Murray to follow up the tax bill.

4. Green states that player contracts mean they have to stay with the club. My friends understanding of this is the opposite - which is to say that the newo is obliged to offer the same contracts - but the players are under no obligation to accept them. In essence the rules are there to prevent companies laying off staff without paying redundancy by changing into a new company.

All of this and other evidence points to - Green being either completely out of his depth and heading for a rude awakening, OR there is rather worrying amount of corruption of the rules to allow his 'scam' to succeed.

As a final aside, Rangers in my view should bite the bullet and get to the third division. The alternative of 10 years handicapped operating budget has been conveniently side stepped at the expense of the tax payer.

If they slide out of this, I hope there will be not only a fans walkout (which unfortunately probably hurts us not rangers), but a serious legal enquiry into the whole situation.

The players had a contract with Glasgow Rangers, a company which doesn't exist anymore, therefore their contracts are now null and void. Yes they can offer the same contracts but these players will now be free agents and can move when ever they like.

[lapsedhibee]

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If we stick to the facts, keep the proven rule breaches in the spotlight no one can be accused of a witch hunt. The truth will out.

Turning your general question right back at ya, can you provide any specific examples of witch hunting on here or in the general media?

I see regular accusations of witch hunting directed at Alex Thomson, but judge the accusers to be knuckledraggers (on account of their generally having usernames like queenandcountryexcepthector1690, etc).

[Kato]

This should be merged into the Big Huge Zombie Hun Thread of Fun but I just wanted to ask as the question got lost in the mire of that thread.

The RTC Blog suggests W H Smith (guess what the H stands for) was being paid money illegally from an EBT as manager of Rangers, Everton and possibly Scotland it seems to me he's probably guilty of some kind of underhandedness - so if so is he a fit and proper person to own a Scottish football club?

[HFC 0-7]

The announcement about lookingto make the SPL right down to SFL3 governed by one body could be to accommodate Rangers in division 3, 2 or 1. As I see it the SPL can only say Rangers are in the SPL or they are not. They cannot make the decision to allow them into any other division, so it may be that alligning all the dvisions into one body so that the SFA can make the decision to allow rangers into one of the leagues. They may also take this opportunity to increase the top league size so that thw like of spartans, gala etc can get a spot in the leagues and not be able to complain or take action if Rangers get kicked out and immediately allowed into SFL3.

IMO, there is no route for a new rangers to be allowed into the league apart from the SPL under the current structure. With the world watching the authorties need to make sure they are doing everything by the book, they cant be seen showing favouritism, so they will change things to make everyone happy - apart from Rangers if they start in division 3.

[whiskyhibby]

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The announcement about lookingto make the SPL right down to SFL3 governed by one body could be to accommodate Rangers in division 3, 2 or 1. As I see it the SPL can only say Rangers are in the SPL or they are not. They cannot make the decision to allow them into any other division, so it may be that alligning all the dvisions into one body so that the SFA can make the decision to allow rangers into one of the leagues. They may also take this opportunity to increase the top league size so that thw like of spartans, gala etc can get a spot in the leagues and not be able to complain or take action if Rangers get kicked out and immediately allowed into SFL3.

IMO, there is no route for a new rangers to be allowed into the league apart from the SPL under the current structure. With the world watching the authorties need to make sure they are doing everything by the book, they cant be seen showing favouritism, so they will change things to make everyone happy - apart from Rangers if they start in division 3.

Hopefully Uefa will be keeping an eye on what the Hun apologists in the SFA/SPL try to do

[Spike Mandela]

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Or alternatively Regan is fed up with Doncaster's inaction and is seeking to take accountability for sorting it out. I don't see many running to the front of the queue to grab this mess so the fact that Regan is looking to do so (and he knows is in a lose/lose situation and will get pelters whatever he does) should be welcomed. What (or more to the point who) is the alternative?

And what if the SPL simply say no? More sabre rattling by the SFA. They talked about doing this earlier on in the administration process to try and move things along, that worked, NOT.

I like Mr Regan and feel his frustration and share his attitude to governance and the idea of one ruling body but the SPL(ie the clubs) are simply too powerful and won't roll over to get their tummy's tickled. I don't believe Mr Regan has others behind him within his organistion with the stomach or the nous to fight for this.

[NAE NOOKIE]

A restructure of the leagues with a bigger top league and newco rankgers starting off in the second tier will do for me.

I want to see der hun punished, but for better or worse they are Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. Not all of their supporters are of the Billy boy knuckle dragging variety and at the end of the day should be given the chance of continuing to support their club.

What I wont accept is a newco in the top league ( whatever that consists of ) when next season kicks off.

[magpie1892]

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for better or worse they are Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club.

Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

[DC_Hibs]

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Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

I would have quoted that part of his post as well but my follow on would have been:

What the fek does that matter. Should we just lie down to them and the media because the big two have ruled the roost for 25 years.

BOVRIL, do you work in the scottish media as thats their viewpoint as well.

Ridiculous coming from a Hibs fan.

[magpie1892]

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BOVRIL, do you work in the scottish media as thats their viewpoint as well.

Bit harsh, DC, as I know a great many Scottish journalists and at least half of them think all their Christmases have come at once.

[joe breezy]

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Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

only if the new company can be punished for the actions of an old company, which they should seeing as they're still profiting on cheating by keeping the badge, the name and their corrupt history

Although they'll say 'we've been punished enough' especially when stripped of titles

[NAE NOOKIE]

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I would have quoted that part of his post as well but my follow on would have been:

What the fek does that matter. Should we just lie down to them and the media because the big two have ruled the roost for 25 years.

BOVRIL, do you work in the scottish media as thats their viewpoint as well.

Ridiculous coming from a Hibs fan.

Who the **** !!! was talking about lying down to them !!!

Read the rest of my posts on this or any other thread devoted to this subject, my opinion on the media's part in this sorry episode is crystal clear.

I was trying to be the voice of moderation here that was all. I get the impression that some people would like to see rangers out of business for good and nothing to replace them. I for one have massively enjoyed the few times I have seen Hibs pump them and I would like the opportunity to see it happen again, after they have taken what they deserve. And yes I actually do know a few rangers fans who are decent folk and I for one dont want to see them lose their club, the same as I would hope that when Hibs were on the brink fans of other clubs would ( at the time ) hope that for me.

I would tolerate them in an SPL 2 at the start of the next season, though I would prefer the 3rd division. But that doesnt mean I dont detest rangers arrogance, the simpering media and the unfortunately massive number of idiots who follow that club and their bull**** at ER and everywhere else.

My post was a reasonable one and is not in any way "rediculous" and to suggest ( as you appear to be doing ) that I am in any way some sort of hun or weegie media apologist is quite frankly bloody insulting.

Oh ... and I wasnt suggesting either that rangers should get special treatment due to the size of the club, they should get the same treatment as any other club in the same situation. But the fact remains that they are a large part of the economy of Scottish football, like it or not and once they have been properly punished we should take advantage of that. But not by letting them take advantage of us as they have in the past with their celtic bedfellows.

[magpie1892]

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only if the new company can be punished for the actions of an old company, which they should seeing as they're still profiting on cheating by keeping the badge, the name and their corrupt history

Although they'll say 'we've been punished enough' especially when stripped of titles

1) Which they can - and, I agree, most likely will. The titles are gone though. They can keep the badge, and put 40 stars on their shirt if it pleases them, but the history died with the club.
2) They've been saying this for a while, but the surface hasn't been scratched (as has been discussed further up this thread and elswhere in the land of 'internet bampottery')

[joe breezy]

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1) Which they can - and, I agree, most likely will. The titles are gone though. They can keep the badge, and put 40 stars on their shisrt if it pleases them, but the history died with the club.
2) They've been saying this for a while, but the surface hasn't been scratched (as has been discussed further up this thread and elswhere in the land of 'internet bampottery'

I hope you're right - there is a chance that Murray and Whyte go on trial for tax evasion whilst new 'the Rangers' are back quite soon but I think they will be severely weakened as transfer ban will be the least of their worries

It looks like the league may get restructured to accommodate them but at the moment they are losing all their players and running out of time to have a football team in place for whatever league they're going to be in

[magpie1892]

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It looks like the league may get restructured to accommodate them but at the moment they are losing all their players and running out of time to have a football team in place for whatever league they're going to be in

I know. And it's deeply, deeply worrying.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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I would take that one.

And I claim the prize for the 12,000th post!

yer one oot

CG has that distinction

[jgl07]

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yer one oot

CG has that distinction

Someone slipped a extra post in. It was 12000 when I posted it.

I blame the mods!

[Kaiser1962]

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Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

UEFA/FIFA will only get involved if the others dont do their job properly.

I have always felt that we were watching a well laid plan unfold but I am beginning to think Hector has thrown an almighty spanner in the works. And he's not finished yet. Hopefully.

[ScottB]

I came to a conclusion while arguing with a St Johnstone fan, who was adamant they must be kept in the SPL because anything else meant doom for us all (don't get me started).

This country is a joke.

Nowhere else would this even be a discussion point. The Italians relegated Juventus and hammer Milan for match fixing and relegated Fiorentina for going the newco route, the French relegated Monaco and the Swiss relegated 4 clubs from their top league for financial issues.

Yet here we are, with our media, politicians and other assorted hangers on clambering for a club that is, for me, guilty of FAR worse actions then I have read about ANY other club having committed, anywhere, ever, to get to carry on as if nothing has happened, and that we, apparently petty, small minded 'others' should be grateful?

I've crossed fully into being totally and utterly disgusted. Even if they end up in SFL3, the fact that we've even had this, as a discussion, is bad enough.

[Onion]

Anyone thought about writing directly to UEFA and FIFA about this situation, and the general feelings of Scottish fans about what is going on and the strong possibility of NewHuns being invited straight into the top league - having left a shameful legacy of debt, crime, tax-evasion and cheating. Not saying they'll sit up and take note of one letter, but anything that throws a spotlight what is going on here and the fears we all have for s stitch up (clearly against UEFA's mantra of "Fair Play") can't do any harm.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Someone slipped a extra post in. It was 12000 when I posted it.

I blame the mods!

just like THE rangers, always blaming someone else

[jgl07]

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I came to a conclusion while arguing with a St Johnstone fan, who was adamant they must be kept in the SPL because anything else meant doom for us all (don't get me started).

This country is a joke.

Nowhere else would this even be a discussion point. The Italians relegated Juventus and hammer Milan for match fixing and relegated Fiorentina for going the newco route, the French relegated Monaco and the Swiss relegated 4 clubs from their top league for financial issues.

Remember that the French bust Marseilles to the Second Division in 1994 following match fixing allegations. They were the holders of the Champions' League the season before and by far the biggest club in France.

They won promotion but got relegated again when further allegations came out and did not return to the top flight until 1996.

[jonty]

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This is the problem faced by Rangers, the SPL and the SFA.
There is a real danger that this is turning into a 'we all hate Rangers so lets kill them off' while hiding behind the sporting integrity banner.
In two other threads I've asked what the crimes are that Rangers have committed and what punishments are available for these crimes, not what people want to see happen to them. I've not seen a reply to either yet.
If the SPL members have to vote on a new company entering the SPL under the circumstances that Rangers find themselves in now, and, there is no precedent set for such a set of circumstances then it has to be based on why they should not be allowed in.
This seems to be what is being said in as much as each case will be looked at on its own merit.

If Rangers are allowed to re enter the SPL it will either be with cripling sanctions or with acceptance that they will be liable for the crimes of GRFC.
If the allegations on double contracts and misuse of EBT's are proven to be correct then the outcome is likely to be expulsion from the SPL.

This does not have a 'happy ever after' endline.

your questions regarding the crimes committed have been answered, so I don't need to repeat them.
my post isn't a which hunt, and it's not hiding behind sporting integrity. It's about doing the right thing, and playing by the rules - pure and simple.

If the new owners want the history of the club then that's all well and good - but have to accept the good with the bad.

[Eyrie]

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The players had a contract with Glasgow Rangers, a company which doesn't exist anymore, therefore their contracts are now null and void. Yes they can offer the same contracts but these players will now be free agents and can move when ever they like.

On the other hand, all the normal background employees at Huns RIP will have the right to transfer over to New Huns on the same conditions which will create a problem as, unless they are in the SPL , they won't be able to afford to pay all the admin staff, cleaners, groundstaff, youth coaches etc. Very few jobs out there at the moment, so those background employees on normal wages would be daft not to move over, even if only to secure redundancy payments.