Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[WindyMiller]

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Roddy Forsyth's article in the Torygraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...eir-hands.html

The last paragraph was interesting.

The administrators still have not made contact with Gary Withey – Rangers’ company secretary and a former partner in the London law practice of Collyer Bristow – who was last seen in the firm’s offices on Feb 24 and who may have left the country.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Roddy Forsyth's article in the Torygraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...eir-hands.html

That IS a belter.

Sanctioned at Treasury level? In these times? With the battering that HMG gave Barclays last week?

I'm still getting my head around that one. I'm struggling to believe it....

[JeMeSouviens]

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My mate just forwarded this from his mate who works in a planning office in Glasgow.

"There is a rumour sweeping my office that Cala Homes are in talks to buy Murray Park.

This site is within the green belt and located in a flood plain. Therefore it cannot be developed on for housing. However it appears that Cala, should they complete this aquisition, would then seek to swap the land ownership with the West of Scotland Rugby Club ground in Milngavie (currently based 1.5 miles from Murray Park). From a purely planning perspective there is nothing legislatively wrong or untoward with this. It is essentially a civil matter between Cala and the Rugby club. They would basically change the title deeds and away you go.

So, what does this mean in planning terms? Well, Murray Park could only be used for a comparable use (i.e. a sports complex) or be returned to an agricultrual use. The West of Scotland Rugby Club site, however, is located within land that is designated for Housing and Mixed Use and is right beside a site in Milngavie called 'Lower Kilmardinny' which has currently got planning permission for 550 houses and a new sports complex. Should Cala buy Murray Park and then successfully negotiate this trade off with the Rugby Club, then it is entirely possible that East Dunbartonshire Council would welcome an application for housing and retail on this site.

What would this mean for Rangers? I suspect, that if the sale of the land is rushed through (it's difficult, but not impossible), then Rangers could well recieve enough cash to keep them afloat to the end of the season. Given current land values, i would estimate that Murray Park would be worth in the region of £8-10 million."

Interesting stuff.

It's a nice theory, the only problem being that West's ground, Burnbrae, is on the same flood plain as Murray Park. (Where it says "Motel" on this map, Murray Park is "Football Academy".)

http://binged.it/xC09wW


Edit: although this suggests there might be something in it ...

http://www.milngavieherald.co.uk/new...oject_1_214301

[johnrebus]

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This will just not happen.

Whatever filth is still to ooze out of Castle Greyskull over the next few days and weeks, you can rest assured that Glasgow Rangers will take their place in the SPL next season.

Forget the football authorities, it will go well beyond that. The people who will ultimately decide Rangers fate will be a lot higher up than that. If the SPL and SFA make a stand I can guarantee that Alex Salmond and politicians of all other parties will intervene to save them from ultimate humiliation.

Already you can see the bias from the BBC. I have yet to hear anyone on a phone in programme or a text read out, pointing out that most Scottish football fans - never mind Celtic fans - want to see the back of them, and will gladly take the chance of losing TV revenue. The game looks buggered with or without Rangers anyway. Instead we have to listen day in day out to the hand wringing drivel of the likes of Billy Dodds.

There is at this moment a complete media ban on a paedophile case in Scotland, because some of the accused just happen to hold or have held high office. If the people that run the country can do this - and get away with it - then saving Rangers will be a piece of cake.

We are stuck with them.

I posted this yesterday.

If you take the Telegraph piece as having some substance, then you have to wonder what is really going on?

If true, then who is pulling the strings?

[Jim44]

Has Daniel Cousin slipped back into Murray Park to help the cause or does the Telegraph have a lazy photography editor?

[SurferRosa]

So what is HMRCs particular problem with Craig Whyte then? The bulk of their cheating was done under the David Murray regime and was nothing tae do with Whyte.
I cant believe that it`s starting tae look certain that these cheating cretins are going tae get away with this...

[Hibbylad86]

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They can only pay out what they take in. If there is enough from the sales to cover all debts, and liquidation costs, everybody gets paid, and the surplus goes to the shareholders. If there isn't enough, then there is a dividend of x pence in the £ made. (no negotiation in this, unlike a CVA).

The property sales would be set by the market. Basically, they are worth whatever anyone is prepared to pay for them.

As for players, I am not sure what happens. It used to be the case that all registrations reverted to the SFA in liquidation, but I have also read that they become free agents. That said, even if RFC retained the contracts, they really wouldn't be worth very much.

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I thought I read somewhere that if a club goes bust, the players contracts become the property of the SFA

If that is the case, that shirley cannot help the admins recoup money on transfer fees in the summer so all this talk of going in to liquidation before the season is out is idle threats from them.

So if the registrations are moved to the SFA are they then de facto adminstrators selling to the highest bidders to share as much (if any) of transfer fees to creditors? If they move to the SFA what is the point of the starting a new co with no team? Or does the new co have to enter the bidding for the players registration?

[Keith_M]

I know it's difficult, but please try putting aside tribal loyalties and distaste for "The Institution" for the moment.

I'd imagine that the current group of Rangers players, at least the ones that are being intransigent as to taking pay cuts, are not going to be very popular with the Rangers support if their actions help the club go bust. Thier current actions (agreeing a wage settlement with the Admins) could well determine the very existence of a 140 year old football club that (like them or not) 100s of thousands of people support.

I've tried to imagine a scenario where, if this were Hibs, how I would feel about being asked to go and pay my 27 quid, or whatever, and go out and "back the boys", when some of those very same boys care more about a couple of months wages than they do about the very existence of MY football club.

It's strange that while the newspapers are trying to paint Greg Wylde as a self-sacrificing individual who has put the welfare of the club and it's lesser paid employees first, they have yet to criticise the majority (which is what they apparently are) who are currently doing the exact opposite.


And please don't give me any guff about "protecting their livelihoods". What we're talkng about here are people who have been rewarded with massive sums of money over their careers and will continue to do so no matter what. We're not talking about the Programme Sellers, Ticket Checkers and backroom staff on poor to average wages.

[CentreLine]

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So if the registrations are moved to the SFA are they then de facto adminstrators selling to the highest bidders to share as much (if any) of transfer fees to creditors? If they move to the SFA what is the point of the starting a new co with no team? Or does the new co have to enter the bidding for the players registration?

Player loyalty being what it is it would be hard to imagine too many players wanting to sign back on with the new club and the uncertainty surrounding it. If they get an offer elsewhere we can be sure they "Won't do hanging about"

[Peevemor]

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So what is HMRCs particular problem with Craig Whyte then? The bulk of their cheating was done under the David Murray regime and was nothing tae do with Whyte.
I cant believe that it`s starting tae look certain that these cheating cretins are going tae get away with this...

Maybe because it looks like Whyte was trying to go into administration with a view to bumping HMRC then continuing with a clean slate?

[CropleyWasGod]

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So if the registrations are moved to the SFA are they then de facto adminstrators selling to the highest bidders to share as much (if any) of transfer fees to creditors? If they move to the SFA what is the point of the starting a new co with no team? Or does the new co have to enter the bidding for the players registration?

I don't think the SFA sell them as such. I think they hold them "in protection", but would transfer a registration to a new team whenever that player made a deal.

[Hibbylad86]

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I don't think the SFA sell them as such. I think they hold them "in protection", but would transfer a registration to a new team whenever that player made a deal.

So does that mean a player like McGregor (arguably their biggest assest) who is valued at c.£5m (IMO!) would then be worth nothing and can move on a free? Does the SFA look after other clubs e.g. Dundee United by trying to sell players and re-coup some cash or just looking after the players and try and get them a new club?

CWG is there an order who gets paid from the sale assets in the case of liquidation? Or is this the same as secured versus non secured status in which case all creditors get the proceeds from assets sales split evenly?


*sigh* I am asking too many questions! I need some lunch

[SurferRosa]

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Maybe because it looks like Whyte was trying to go into administration with a view to bumping HMRC then continuing with a clean slate?

Quite probably and i can see why they would want to nail Whyte, but they are setting a very dangerous precedent, imo, that will have cheating clubs throughout the land rubbing their hands at the prospect of using this case now as some sort of defence.

( it`s still all unconfirmed though, i believe )

[CropleyWasGod]

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Quite probably and i can see why they would want to nail Whyte, but they are setting a very dangerous precedent, imo, that will have cheating clubs throughout the land rubbing their hands at the prospect of using this case now as some sort of defence.

( it`s still all unconfirmed though, i believe )

Not just clubs, but the wider business world.

(rewriting my tax planning manual as we speak)

[Seveno]

From the BBC website :

Rangers are in danger of not being able to complete their remaining fixtures this season unless a decision is made on who is entitled to £3.6m held in a bank account, a court has been told.
The money is in an account of lawyers acting for Craig Whyte.
The funds were part of the process which saw Mr Whyte take over the club in May last year.
Lawyers for the club's administrators told the High Court in London they had expected to find £9.5m in the account.
But they said there was only £3.6m in the account and several parties are claiming ownership of the money.
They include HM Revenue and Customs, which wants £2.8m.
Merchants Turnaround is seeking £1m and pension fund Gerome is claiming £2.9m.
The court heard the football club's current financial situation was "grave".
It was told that Rangers were at the risk of liquidation, demotion from the premier league, and having the club's assets sold at a price that was not "like anything of its true value".

No idea who the pension fund are but Merchants Turnaround is a Craig Whyte company.

[CropleyWasGod]

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So does that mean a player like McGregor (arguably their biggest assest) who is valued at c.£5m (IMO!) would then be worth nothing and can move on a free? Does the SFA look after other clubs e.g. Dundee United by trying to sell players and re-coup some cash or just looking after the players and try and get them a new club?

CWG is there an order who gets paid from the sale assets in the case of liquidation? Or is this the same as secured versus non secured status in which case all creditors get the proceeds from assets sales split evenly?


*sigh* I am asking too many questions! I need some lunch

On the McGregor question, that's basically it.

As for the order, you're more or less bang on. The liquidators get first dibs, though...

[CropleyWasGod]

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From the BBC website :

Rangers are in danger of not being able to complete their remaining fixtures this season unless a decision is made on who is entitled to £3.6m held in a bank account, a court has been told.
The money is in an account of lawyers acting for Craig Whyte.
The funds were part of the process which saw Mr Whyte take over the club in May last year.
Lawyers for the club's administrators told the High Court in London they had expected to find £9.5m in the account.
But they said there was only £3.6m in the account and several parties are claiming ownership of the money.
They include HM Revenue and Customs, which wants £2.8m.
Merchants Turnaround is seeking £1m and pension fund Gerome is claiming £2.9m.
The court heard the football club's current financial situation was "grave".
It was told that Rangers were at the risk of liquidation, demotion from the premier league, and having the club's assets sold at a price that was not "like anything of its true value".

No idea who the pension fund are but Merchants Turnaround is a Craig Whyte company.

No mention of Ticketus there.

Not sure why HMRC want £2.8m. Could be for CW personally.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Let's see whether tomorrow does in fact the bring the huge redundencies the administrators' statement alluded to yesterday. So far they have been in place three weeks, at a fee of thousands per day, and have so far failed to cut a penny from Rangers' costs. I'm beginning to like their inaction

[PaulSmith]

Court date to reconvene and decide who the 3.9m is due to is on March 29 and will last 4 days.
I don't believe Rangers will survive until then IMO.

[Seveno]

Interesting comment from the Telegraph article about HMRC wanting 'regime change' at Ibrox.

I'd be all for that if they did it the American way ....................bomb the barstewards !

[CropleyWasGod]

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Interesting comment from the Telegraph article about HMRC wanting 'regime change' at Ibrox.

I'd be all for that if they did it the American way ....................bomb the barstewards !

Thinking about that, I don't think that HMRC have any place in deciding who should be involved in companies. If they said that to any of mine, I'd be telling them where to go.

[Seveno]

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Thinking about that, I don't think that HMRC have any place in deciding who should be involved in companies. If they said that to any of mine, I'd be telling them where to go.

I think the United Nations have one or two objections to the American interventions.

Stop spoiling an amusing scenario anyway.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I think the United Nations have one or two objections to the American interventions.

Stop spoiling an amusing scenario anyway.

Sorry... I didn't get past the first line of your previous post before my keyboard got battered.

But.. hell, yeah, let's nuke 'em now!!

[stokesmessiah]

I was just speaking to a sheep supporting friend of mine who said Rangers can't just play the youth team as DM sold the rights to them and a fee in the region of 300k is due every time someone makes a debut. I don't think this is possible, has anyone heard of it?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I was just speaking to a sheep supporting friend of mine who said Rangers can't just play the youth team as DM sold the rights to them and a fee in the region of 300k is due every time someone makes a debut. I don't think this is possible, has anyone heard of it?

Sounds like a Tevez/Koorabachian type thing. That got bombed out, didn't it?

AFAIK, RFC own the "rights" to all staff.

[Andy74]

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I was just speaking to a sheep supporting friend of mine who said Rangers can't just play the youth team as DM sold the rights to them and a fee in the region of 300k is due every time someone makes a debut. I don't think this is possible, has anyone heard of it?

Eh??

[Seveno]

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Sorry... I didn't get past the first line of your previous post before my keyboard got battered.

But.. hell, yeah, let's nuke 'em now!!

Ooops ! Just realised that we could be in trouble with the cyber police.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I was just speaking to a sheep supporting friend of mine who said Rangers can't just play the youth team as DM sold the rights to them and a fee in the region of 300k is due every time someone makes a debut. I don't think this is possible, has anyone heard of it?

They do pay their won subsidiary company when a player is promoted from their youths but according to wiki, the youth development company is wholly owned by Rangers ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers...d_Youth_squads

[stokesmessiah]

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Eh??

That was my response. Although, nothing would surprise me now!

[cabbageandribs1875]

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No idea who the pension fund are but Merchants Turnaround is a Craig Whyte company.

Admin want it all
HMRC want - £2.8 mill
Jerome Group pensions - £2.95 mill
merchant turnaround - £1 mill
Ticketus want some

rumoured whyte dipped in to some pension fund

interesting names involved in the merchant turnaround company

http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/lt...ant-turnaround


DAVID GILLESPIE23 Feb 12 director - Appointment ended
MR JAMES DOMINIC RUPERT HOLMES23 Feb 12 director - Appointed
THOMAS MILLAR24 Nov 11 director - Appointment ended
MR CRAIG THOMAS WHYTE04 Mar 10 secretary - Appointed
PHILIP BETTS04 Mar 10 secretary - Appointment ended
CRAIG WHYTE10 Feb 10 director - Appointment ended
MR PHILIP BETTS09 Feb 10 secretary - Appointed
JAMES HOLMES09 Feb 10 director - Appointment ended
CRAIG WHYTE09 Feb 10 secretary - Appointment ended
MR PHILIP JOHN BETTS09 Feb 10 director - Appointed
MR DAVID JOHN GILLESPIE09 Feb 10 director - Appointed
MR THOMAS MILLAR09 Feb 10 director - Appointed