Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I'm adding my vote to this.

What else would people want? Complete annihilation of Rangers? The hanging of Murray and McCoist from the Vatican? Desirable, maybe :greengrin, but seriously....???

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I wanted people tae stop trying tae make deals with them and instead tell them how it is, same as they would have with anybody else. This whole thing has been a disgrace from start tae finish. How regan and doncaster are still there is beyond me other then everybody must have agreed with what they have been doing and the way they've gone about it. Newco in division 3 or not, the people running the game in this country are still a shower of twisted *****.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

You are kidding , right? Just because they call something a punishment doesn't mean it is....

Transfer embargo, they will now sign more players than any other Scottish club in this window. All the type of players they are signing just now will be eligible to sign for them next year on Sept 1st as well so in essence a 4 week signing ban in January.

£160,000 fine, not bad for witholding £14m in PAYE, bringing game into disrepute and only match .fixing considered worse in terms of wrongdoing.

Repaying football debt, this will be staggered over several years and beneficiaries include other bastions of financial probity such as errrmmm Hearts. Stll well up on deal after shafting non footballing creditors.

10 point SPL penalty, instead of finishing second they finished ehhhhhh second.

In terms of consequences rather than punishment they have had to restart in div 3. But this will be div 3 not as we know it. On tv more than any club outwith Celtic, sudden interest in div 3 by the likes of Traynor et al....The Rangers Great adventure.

3 years in the lower leagues, unlikely, reconstruction will ensure a 2 year absence if not less.

Anybody holding out any hope of significant sanction for EBT scandal, 10 years of cheating, needs to remember Doncaster is the one leading that charge, hmmmm, slap on the wrist Ally?

Thank God for UEFA. The only authority with clear defined rules that kicked in instantly when Rangers scenario developed and were liquidated. 3 year ban from Europe the only punishment/consequence that will seriously hurt Rangers.

The football is back now and we can start watching games again, my season ticket has been signed and sealed since early bird deadline, but the disillusionment in Scottish football is palpable right now especially at Hibs with the double whammy of Cup Final humiliation and the Rangers farce fresh in everybody's mind. It will be a long time before wouds heal and football in this country regains any respect imo.

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:top marks

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Originally Posted by BarneyK

That's what confuses me :dunno: My reading of the joint statement is that the so called "deal" has resulted in no concessions by the SPL or SFA. Not one. Yet still some are outraged.

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I think people are mostly outraged at the fact that Rangers haven't learnt anything from this. They believe they've been hard done by and they are already trying to sign players that should be far beyond their financial capabilities.

Think about it. A division 3 club that has been newly formed, out spending an SPL club like our own, who are at least trying to do things the sensible way.

Something stinks and it goes beyond the usual stench of the hunnery.

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Originally Posted by wee_hibee

I think people are mostly outraged at the fact that Rangers haven't learnt anything from this. They believe they've been hard done by and they are already trying to sign players that should be far beyond their financial capabilities.

Think about it. A division 3 club that has been newly formed, out spending an SPL club like our own, who are at least trying to do things the sensible way.

Something stinks and it goes beyond the usual stench of the hunnery.

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They are a much bigger team than us and can therefore spend much more than us on players. That was never going to change.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

You are kidding , right? Just because they call something a punishment doesn't mean it is....

Transfer embargo, they will now sign more players than any other Scottish club in this window. All the type of players they are signing just now will be eligible to sign for them next year on Sept 1st as well so in essence a 4 week signing ban in January.

£160,000 fine, not bad for witholding £14m in PAYE, bringing game into disrepute and only match .fixing considered worse in terms of wrongdoing. Surely an SPL club business plan rather than a punishment.

Repaying football debt, this will be staggered over several years and beneficiaries include other bastions of financial probity such as errrmmm Hearts. Stll well up on deal after shafting non footballing creditors.

10 point SPL penalty, instead of finishing second they finished ehhhhhh second.

In terms of consequences rather than punishment they have had to restart in div 3. But this will be div 3 not as we know it. On tv more than any club outwith Celtic, sudden interest in div 3 by the likes of Traynor et al....The Rangers Great adventure.

3 years in the lower leagues, unlikely, reconstruction will ensure a 2 year absence if not less.

Anybody holding out any hope of significant sanction for EBT scandal, 10 years of cheating, needs to remember Doncaster is the one leading that charge, hmmmm, slap on the wrist Ally?

Thank God for UEFA. The only authority with clear defined rules that kicked in instantly when Rangers scenario developed and were liquidated. 3 year ban from Europe the only punishment/consequence that will seriously hurt Rangers.

The football is back now and we can start watching games again, my season ticket has been signed and sealed since early bird deadline, but the disillusionment in Scottish football is palpable right now especially at Hibs with the double whammy of Cup Final humiliation and the Rangers farce fresh in everybody's mind. It will be a long time before wouds heal and football in this country regains any respect imo.

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Let's not forget that the SFA did try to have an immediate transfer embargo, which was knocked back by the Courts.

What else would you want?

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

You are kidding , right? Just because they call something a punishment doesn't mean it is....

Transfer embargo, they will now sign more players than any other Scottish club in this window. All the type of players they are signing just now will be eligible to sign for them next year on Sept 1st as well so in essence a 4 week signing ban in January.

£160,000 fine, not bad for witholding £14m in PAYE, bringing game into disrepute and only match .fixing considered worse in terms of wrongdoing.

Repaying football debt, this will be staggered over several years and beneficiaries include other bastions of financial probity such as errrmmm Hearts. Stll well up on deal after shafting non footballing creditors.

10 point SPL penalty, instead of finishing second they finished ehhhhhh second.

In terms of consequences rather than punishment they have had to restart in div 3. But this will be div 3 not as we know it. On tv more than any club outwith Celtic, sudden interest in div 3 by the likes of Traynor et al....The Rangers Great adventure.

3 years in the lower leagues, unlikely, reconstruction will ensure a 2 year absence if not less.

Anybody holding out any hope of significant sanction for EBT scandal, 10 years of cheating, needs to remember Doncaster is the one leading that charge, hmmmm, slap on the wrist Ally?

Thank God for UEFA. The only authority with clear defined rules that kicked in instantly when Rangers scenario developed and were liquidated. 3 year ban from Europe the only punishment/consequence that will seriously hurt Rangers.

The football is back now and we can start watching games again, my season ticket has been signed and sealed since early bird deadline, but the disillusionment in Scottish football is palpable right now especially at Hibs with the double whammy of Cup Final humiliation and the Rangers farce fresh in everybody's mind. It will be a long time before wouds heal and football in this country regains any respect imo.

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A guilty verdict and a stripping of titles will finish it for me. What punishment do you think they should have received? The EBT/double contracts thing is the main issue I have. That's the one that allowed them to cheat and win honours they may not have won otherwise. And that hasn't been proven yet. Other than that, they went bust, they start again. There is precedent for this. I would certainly agree with a wage cap, but other than that...

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

You are kidding , right? Just because they call something a punishment doesn't mean it is....

Transfer embargo, they will now sign more players than any other Scottish club in this window. All the type of players they are signing just now will be eligible to sign for them next year on Sept 1st as well so in essence a 4 week signing ban in January.

£160,000 fine, not bad for witholding £14m in PAYE, bringing game into disrepute and only match .fixing considered worse in terms of wrongdoing. Surely an SPL club business plan rather than a punishment.

Repaying football debt, this will be staggered over several years and beneficiaries include other bastions of financial probity such as errrmmm Hearts. Stll well up on deal after shafting non footballing creditors.

10 point SPL penalty, instead of finishing second they finished ehhhhhh second.

In terms of consequences rather than punishment they have had to restart in div 3. But this will be div 3 not as we know it. On tv more than any club outwith Celtic, sudden interest in div 3 by the likes of Traynor et al....The Rangers Great adventure.

3 years in the lower leagues, unlikely, reconstruction will ensure a 2 year absence if not less.

Anybody holding out any hope of significant sanction for EBT scandal, 10 years of cheating, needs to remember Doncaster is the one leading that charge, hmmmm, slap on the wrist Ally?

Thank God for UEFA. The only authority with clear defined rules that kicked in instantly when Rangers scenario developed and were liquidated. 3 year ban from Europe the only punishment/consequence that will seriously hurt Rangers.

The football is back now and we can start watching games again, my season ticket has been signed and sealed since early bird deadline, but the disillusionment in Scottish football is palpable right now especially at Hibs with the double whammy of Cup Final humiliation and the Rangers farce fresh in everybody's mind. It will be a long time before wouds heal and football in this country regains any respect imo.

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:agree:

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Originally Posted by Desperate Dan

I wanted people tae stop trying tae make deals with them and instead tell them how it is, same as they would have with anybody else. This whole thing has been a disgrace from start tae finish. How regan and doncaster are still there is beyond me other then everybody must have agreed with what they have been doing and the way they've gone about it. Newco in division 3 or not, the people running the game in this country are still a shower of twisted *****.

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The "deals" are what has been reported in the media. The interpretation I have is that the SFA said "this is what you have to sign up to before you're allowed in". Thus far, I don't see any concession on the SFA's part..... ie no deals have been struck.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Let's not forget that the SFA did try to have an immediate transfer embargo, which was knocked back by the Courts.

What else would you want?

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How about accepting the transfer embargo from it's original immediate effect, or how about one of the available sanctions a court would accept such as suspension or expulsion?

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Originally Posted by hibs0666

They are a much bigger team than us and can therefore spend much more than us on players. That was never going to change.

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No they're not.

"Rangers" were a bigger club than us.

This "new club" don't know how big they are. They haven't played 1 league game in their history yet.

Yet, they're already piecing together a squad that would finish in the top 2 in the SPL, never mind DIV3.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

How about accepting the transfer embargo from it's original immediate effect, or how about one of the available sanctions a court would accept such as suspension or expulsion?

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If your club was threatened with a sanction that wasn't allowed in the rules, would you accept it?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The "deals" are what has been reported in the media. The interpretation I have is that the SFA said "this is what you have to sign up to before you're allowed in". Thus far, I don't see any concession on the SFA's part..... ie no deals have been struck.

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:agree: The media have consistently throughout the whole affair tried to treat us like idiots, and to be fair, it seems to have worked with a fair few of the Newco fans. Funny that...:whistle:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The "deals" are what has been reported in the media. The interpretation I have is that the SFA said "this is what you have to sign up to before you're allowed in". Thus far, I don't see any concession on the SFA's part..... ie no deals have been struck.

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So there is no deal to make transfer embargo ineffectual by starting it after transfer window. A glaring 'deal' in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by wee_hibee

No they're not.

"Rangers" were a bigger club than us.

This "new club" don't know how big they are. They haven't played 1 league game in their history yet.

Yet, they're already piecing together a squad that would finish in the top 2 in the SPL, never mind DIV3.

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Stop kidding yourself. They look like Rangers, act like Rangers and no doubt smell like them. The entire fanbase of the "old" Rangers will support them.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

It isn't. For Celtic and Rangers it is vital given the level of expectation from their fans. Making the 'facts' suit our wish list is simply deluded.

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That wasn't how I read your previous post. It sounded like the financial consequences for Sevco of playing in the SPL without being eligible for European football would be worse than the costs of playing their way up from Division Three.

They can't get European football for the next three years regardless of which division they're in, so to my mind it's not relevant to the financial side of things. If not being in Europe upsets their fans, I can live with that :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

If your club was threatened with a sanction that wasn't allowed in the rules, would you accept it?

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If I realised the punishment was lesser than one I could actually receive legitamally(sp:rolleyes:) then yes. But I don't share the arrogance of McCoist et al.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

If I realised the punishment was lesser than one I could actually receive legitamally(sp:rolleyes:) then yes. But I don't share the arrogance of McCoist et al.

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But you would still contest the illegitimate punishment, which is my point. RFC were correct to question that... albeit they chose the wrong way... and so would any other club be.

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Originally Posted by wee_hibee

No they're not.

"Rangers" were a bigger club than us.

This "new club" don't know how big they are. They haven't played 1 league game in their history yet.

Yet, they're already piecing together a squad that would finish in the top 2 in the SPL, never mind DIV3.

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100% true. At least until they play 1 league game...:wink:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Stop kidding yourself. They look like Rangers, act like Rangers and no doubt smell like them. The entire fanbase of the "old" Rangers will support them.

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Well i'm not convinced that their "entire" fanbase will support them.

Playing in the divisions will take a hard hit on their numbers I reckon.

Ours dropped considerably when we only went into DIV1 and that was with our club and history still intact.

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Originally Posted by wee_hibee

Well i'm not convinced that their "entire" fanbase will support them.

Playing in the divisions will take a hard hit on their numbers I reckon.

Ours dropped considerably when we only went into DIV1 and that was with our club and history still intact.

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Yeah, and we spent more money that the rest of the League in getting out of it too..... :greengrin

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Originally Posted by wee_hibee

Well i'm not convinced that their "entire" fanbase will support them.

Playing in the divisions will take a hard hit on their numbers I reckon.

Ours dropped considerably when we only went into DIV1 and that was with our club and history still intact.

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What are the actual figures for that season? The line always used is that our attendances actually went up because we were having some measure of success. :dunno:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

But you would still contest the illegitimate punishment, which is my point. RFC were correct to question that... albeit they chose the wrong way... and so would any other club be.

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Not necessarily CWG. One Judge disagreed with another if you recall. SFA had right of appeal but never. Rangers have of course accepted it now when it isn't an effectual punishment.

Effectual punishment, the real thing lacking through all this sorry mess.

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Originally Posted by wee_hibee

Well i'm not convinced that their "entire" fanbase will support them.

Playing in the divisions will take a hard hit on their numbers I reckon.

Ours dropped considerably when we only went into DIV1 and that was with our club and history still intact.

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Their entire fan base will continue to support them which gives them a massive advantage in terms of potential match attendees. And as far as the hordes are concerned their club and history will be intact because they will be watching a team playing in the same strips in the same stadium.

Just before liquidation I expected there to be a Rangers in the SPL with penalties backed by the Scottish Media. At the end of the season 2012/13 I expected the penalties to be reviewed and Rangers to get away with pretty much everything I really thought we were going to be totally shafted. The bigots would still turn up at Easter Road and turn my stomach

Not in my wildest deams did I expect Scottish football to do the right thing and treat newco Rangers like they would any other club. I take my hat off to the chairman who carried this through.

To me the only outstanding matters are the EBTs which must result in taking titles and with-holding the Cups with Rangers name removed. Doncaster and Regan must be removed, sacked for that matter. I am sure their lies to the press and us about Sky deals, civil unrest etc would be enough to hang them.

Most importantly the opportunity to revitalise the whole of Scottish football can't be missed and must be dealt with.

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Originally Posted by BarneyK

What are the actual figures for that season? The line always used is that our attendances actually went up because we were having some measure of success. :dunno:

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That's a myth. Our own share of the gate may have gone up.... but the away supports were very small.

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Originally Posted by BarneyK

What are the actual figures for that season? The line always used is that our attendances actually went up because we were having some measure of success. :dunno:

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It all depends on which particular argument you want the 'facts' to fit.:greengrin


I think our attendances were down though.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

You are kidding , right? Just because they call something a punishment doesn't mean it is....

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I'm not sure what more could have been done, without it starting to border on victimisation?

The fines that were dished out were pretty much the highest the rules allowed.

Rangers expected to reform and walk away from their financial responsibilities, but (creditors excepted) they have not been allowed to do this.

Sally stated that they would NEVER accept stripping of titles, and had to do some embarrassing back tracking yesterday on that one.

The only punishment that might be a non-punishment is the transfer embargo, but let's face it they were always going to walk div 3 (and 2) regardless.

If there is reconstruction that results in them getting back into the SPL sooner, although I can't see how, then surely that can only benefit us? Would you rather we stayed the same purely to keep them out another year?

I am happy enough with yesterday's outcome, it's better than I would have expected 2 months ago.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The "deals" are what has been reported in the media. The interpretation I have is that the SFA said "this is what you have to sign up to before you're allowed in". Thus far, I don't see any concession on the SFA's part..... ie no deals have been struck.

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Aye, and none of the stuff tae try and get them in tae the SPL & 1st division happened either because it was in the papers right?. :rolleyes: The simple fact that regan, doncaster, ogilve, et al are still rolling along within the corridors of power of Scottish fitba tells me all I need tae ken about the rest of the people involved in the upper echelons too..

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Let's not forget that the SFA did try to have an immediate transfer embargo, which was knocked back by the Courts.

What else would you want?

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I wanted the Appellate Tribunal to resit and impose one of the penalties that was on the official list - a one season suspension of membership would have been my choice. The court verdict specifically stated that Rangers could not assume that the SFA was being directed to impose a more lenient punishment, so there was no legal reason not to go down that road. As it is, the start date of 1st September means that the sanction is not even as strict as the original one, which was intended to be helpful to Rangers. Never pat a rabid dog is the lesson to be learned from their behaviour!

While I have no doubt that the SFA backed down quite unnecessarily on this issue, there are other things which can be done in the future. The opportunity to restructure the voting and money distribution of the SPL must be taken. Fans of all clubs need to keep pressure on their officials to get this done. It's absolutely vital for the Scottish game's future.

The dual contract investigation has to continue. I can just about understand that the SPL might want to postpone action until the tax case is resolved, but they musn't let it drop. It could still have a big effect on Rangers' future and Green's profits. If it's decided that Rangers' past title wins were invalid, then UEFA are likely to take an interest. The current three year ban for lack of accounts could become something far larger.

In the shorter term we'll see how sound the financial plan presented with the licence application turns out to be.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

It all depends on which particular argument you want the 'facts' to fit.:greengrin


I think our attendances were down though.

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Nope :aok: average home attendance was up. We still lost around £5,000 000 though according to RP

Season 1998/99 - 1st Div - 18 games - Capacity 16281

Total - 183957
Highest - 14843
Average - 10220

Season 2011/12 - SPL - 19 games - Capacity 20421

Total - 188271
Highest - 15281
Average - 9909