Printable View
I’m happy to say that this ferries fiasco is indeed a scandal and there needs to be accountability. What I haven’t seen suggested is anything other than this being a bad decision? There appears to be no suggestion of corruption? I guess in that sense it’s very different from the spending scandals there.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is definitely no whiff off corruption. What’s pretty clear is that a series of bad mistakes have been made with no assessment of the risks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It’s a good job a full risk assessment of independence has been carried out ;-)
On katos point, I agree there are plenty of Tory issues as well but they should not distract us from holding the Scottish government to account
They aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk
Not disagreeing with any of that. The SG's ability to simply throw the comfort blanket of independence over any disquiet though tends to dilute serious criticism, no matter how justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
This guy's not everyone's favourite writer but he does sum things up well here:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-s-ferry-mess
So it's along the lines of the Trams scandal only with less money involved. Brutal. This'll be all over the front pages for months. Like that time Strurgeon disgracefully got mixed up between a Friday and a Monday.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk
I’m no fan of the SNP but they stepped in to save the last yard on Clyde and gave it a contract for two ships and then Nationalised the company. Their actions might be politically driven but 300 well paid jobs were saved. Lots of governments help local firms win contracts. The Italian and French governments have done it for years and no one complains about state aid or financial mismanagement. If the U.K. government stepped in and nationalised P&O ferries and reinstated the 800 sacked workers no one would complain
Fair enough , but these ferries will 5 years late , £200 million over budget , and may never sale .Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky
I’m no fan of this deal at all, I think it was foolish for the govt to get involved with in the first place, but even I was surprised by the fact that the last shipyard on the Clyde was not actually capable of building boats.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
There is not much call for shipyards like that these days so I expect that yard to close the minute those ferries are ready or they admit defeat and mothball them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
McColl doing his best to wash his hands of it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60910732
Is 250 million a fair amount to save a few hundred jobs for a couple of years. What other non viable businesses should we save.
While this is a massive error of judgement that should never have happened and was easily predictable, we can’t know if the £250m figure is correct yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
As we speak, the ferries are only due to cost £206m (the media is forecasting the rest) and if (big if) they actually get completed for that then I guess you have to deduct the £100m they were originally forecast to cost. The loss then to the taxpayer comes in at about £110m. A massive amount and it shouldn’t have happpened but less than we gave away free to Michelle Mone.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's not one against the other, both are unbelievable waste of public funds. There has to be sackingsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
LOL. The UK Gov wrote off £4.8billion in covid loans and no one got sacked. They spent £12billion on PPE 80% of which was unusable or surplus to requirements. This is chicken feed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Once again more they did that so who cares what we did. The uk government should be jailed for a multitude of reasons but we expect that from them. If you only compare yourself to them you can get away with a lot. Do you not want and expect better from scot gov, or are you just going to come back with so what when they did thisQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
There was an expert talking about this on Radio Scotland yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
He was saying the boats are totally wrong and not fit for purpose.
For example, apparently, they can hold up to 1000 passengers but the Ardrossan ferry has never carried more than 300.
There is sleeping accommodation for up to 50 crew members when none is required for a 50 minute journey
They are the wrong height for the docks in Ardrossan
etc etc
Teachers side vote overwhelmingly to accept pay offer relating to April 2021 (80%). They’ve accepted 1.22% with a 1% uplift from January 2022. They said they’d ballot strike at anything under 3% so a total capitulation on the union’s side. The Scot Gov will never take them seriously for the wage rise due for this year.
"We expect that from them" so that makes it ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Yes I do expect better from SG, however I'm willing to find the facts before jumping on the "sack 'em all" bandwagon.
Plus, I'm just asking for some perspective here.
Do you honestly think that we would have got this far without someone asking these basic questions?Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Do you honestly think that the expert that Radio Scotland got on, just made this stuff up?Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Saying they should be jailed means I think it makes it OK? The fact a pretty obvious now.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Sometimes that does happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk
Well he appears to have made the bit about crew accommodation up?Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
You state he said "There is sleeping accommodation for up to 50 crew members when none is required for a 50 minute journey"
CalMac operate an Onshore/Offshore shift pattern so crew members do need sleeping quarters.
Did I say that they had made it up? No. I questioned whether you thought that these basic questions would not have previously been considered in a multi-million pound programme of work.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Sorry, you're right and I missed that you said that. We agree. They should be jailed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon_the_cabbage
Most of the 50 crew members are catering staff.
It's a 50 min crossing. Why is that needed is the point I think he was making.
I'll bow out, I ain't no shipping expert compared to you guys!
I heard Jim McColl on the radio this morning saying he never signed the contract. Turns out he did actually sign the contract. Maybe he was just making it all up. :greengrin
CMAL CEO, Tom Docherty signed the contract also. (Not sure if he's in the SNP though).
https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1508791734918123530
I'm no shipping expert either but I do know that CalMac crew live onboard for a number of weeks as part of their shift pattern which is contrary to the false statement you repeated that no crew accommodation is required.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Maybe they were kitting it out for when we get back into the EU, for the route from Rosyth to Europe. :sauzee:Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Forward thinking.:wink:
The current Arran ferry is this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Caledonian_IslesQuote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
110 cars/1000 passengers max. The new one is 127/1000. I think the overall size is dictated by the car decks more than passenger capacity?
The harbour at Ardrossan is meant to be closing soon to get upgraded. The Arran ferry will run from Troon while that's done.
Replacing P&O?!Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
They'll be paying more than the minimum wage anyway. :aok:
Thanks. The current crew is only 26. If they have built sleeping accom for 50+ crew that does seem a bit OTT.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Seems like this is a really touchy subject so I'm treading carefully here. I thought Radio Scotland was generally a good source of info for most of you on here but apparently not in this case!!
Hot Bunking is not something you want to do in this day and age.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Wouldn't rule it out can remember the BBC putting on live tv a guy who was in reception for an interview for a completely unrelated job to what he was asked to speak about :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Bearing in mind nobody appears to have been answerable for the Scottish government admitting they acted unlawfully over the investigation into the Salmond sexual harassment claims, it's unlikely a single head will roll over this. The blame has basically been lumped on the long-departed Derek Mackay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Said it earlier, but for as long as the 'another referendum is coming (honest)' blanket can be used to smother the critics, nobody from the SG will be held up to serious scrutiny over screw-ups like the ferries fiasco:
The SNP know they're incompetent. It's why they keep talking about independence (telegraph.co.uk)
Such tactics may not wash so readily once it finally dawns on the faithful that there's zero chance of another referendum in 2023.
The Telegraph!! :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I know it's petty of me, but anyone who links to the Tories in-house newspaper as evidence for their viewpoint has forfeited the argument IMO.
Are the SNP incompetent though? They appear to be the most competent govt in the UK just now?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Russian financed in-house Tory paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk
The SNP have certainly made mistakes and public money has been misspent. I think the huge difference between them and the current incumbents at Westminster is intent which is why the SNP is given easy/easier ride by those who vote for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Certainly not given an easier ride by the media? The £250m for ferries is chicken feed to what is being wasted elsewhere even this week but it’s all we here about in the news. Michelle Mone barely rates a mention in the news.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What reason won't they have an election in 2023? Is it they don't think they will get a legally binding one by then
There was an election in 2021, it will be 2026 before the next Scottish election. 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I know you meant to say referendum 😁
Aye referendum. I've just not seen why 2023 won't happen, seen someone mentioning Ukraine but that's obviously nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Is it not thinking we will get the win, if so then fair enough as it will be the last vote in decades. Or is it they won't get it to be legally binding in time
probably more like the latter. More likely is a General Election next year as I doubt the Tories will hold off till 2024.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Wow! Even your bowing out lasted longer than your treading carefully 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Who is it specifically you think that feels touchy about this?
Hopefully these ships turn out better
UK Defence Journal
@UKDefJournal
·
BAE Systems is looking for more than 400 skilled tradespeople to join their Clyde workforce in Glasgow as the Type 26 frigate programme gains momentum
My fear is if it's a no vote again. We won't get another referendum ever again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
If it's a no vote, they'll just try again in another 5 or 10 years i'd have thought?Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
Québec has had 2 referendums: 1980 a 60-40 no, 1995 a baw-hair 50.5-49.5 no. Following 1995, everyone assumed it was only a matter of time. There has not been a 3rd and the indy tide has more or less gone out.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Having said that there are obviously huge and important differences:
- The demographics are the opposite of ours, the older age groups favour indy.
- Québec now has a "short of independence" party, the CAQ, mainly composed of splitters from the pro-indy PQ. The CAQ is in favour of extracting the maximum for Québec within the Canadian federation, whether at the expense of Anglophone Canada or not.
- An inclusive indy side is hard to pull off when so much of the politics is wrapped in the language/culture of "New France".
- Québec is a genuinely powerful province within a federation.
But it is a warning that the seemingly inevitable is not inevitable.
Would there be any harm in Scotland saying we will hold a referendum every x years?
It would keep both governments on their toes in perpetuity as they'd have to constantly try to keep everyone on side!
Would be an even worse popularity competition than we have now.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
The country needs a plan for the long term. Pandering to clicks and likes is all we have.
Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-60939628
It's not so much his daily rate which strikes me as the issue here but the fact that as 'turnaround director' the turnaround achieved seems to have been negligible to non-existent.
Shows how out of touch Scottish Labour are if they think Lionel Messi is on 3k a day :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
That'll be a class trip
rnal
@UKDefJournal
·
28m
HMS Glasgow, currently being built on the Clyde, is to be used to ferry passengers between Scottish islands after a request from the Scottish Government due to delays with the ferries being built at Port Glasgow
I'd remind about the date first before it kicks off actually
Due to be operational from 2026, I think that even the Glen Sannock will be running before then 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
'Scottish government marked own homework over ferries fiasco':
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...her-nasty-turn
I saw none of the former managers of Ferguson Marine were allowed to speak to Audit Scotland as they had all signed gagging orders as part of their package when leaving. Audit Scotland asked the Scottish Government to relax the gagging orders so they could speak to them but the Government refused.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I had the misfortune to get stuck behind blackford on the way to the game today.
You have my deepest sympathy :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Was he heading for posh seats or mixing with the plebs ?
Brunswick road so too early to tell !Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Although I guess he had at least one encounter with a pleb.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20041188.derek-mackay-vows-set-record-straight-holyrood-ferry-fiasco-inquiry/Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
'I was fourth in pecking order behind Sturgeon, Swinney and Brown,' says Mackay.
Derek ‘Peado’ Mackay is stating he is now prepared to give evidence in the Ferry messQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
A pretty dodgy accusation to make given the police said no laws had been broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
So grooming a young boy is acceptable behaviour the man is a beast in my book regardlessQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I'm in no way defending what he did. Its what you've written I'd suggest is actionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
If he had been a MSP of any other party I doubt you would not have this opinion, where if he had been Tory, Labour, Lib Dem or whoever my opinion would still be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Absolutely. In the eyes of the law he has not committed a crime. But I've been questioning your actions not his. I'd suggest your comment is quite possibly libelous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
No matter what I think personally of any politician, or anyone else for that matter, I wouldn't be going on a public forum describing them as something the police have investigated him for and stated quite clearly no law was broken.
I'd doubt he'd want the publicity of taking a football fan to court, especially although not illegal definitely dodgy and verging on groomingQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack
There is a whole string of posts discussing Prince Andrew’s beast like behaviour and he has never been found guilty or charged with any crime….I don’t recall you posting about others describing him as a peado libellous… both escaped justice in my opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I can't remember looking at that thread as I had no interest in the subject so I can't comment on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
https://mullandionaferrycommittee.or...ferent-prices/
I don't know the history or leanings of the source, and I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions regarding the tendering process and, presumably, privatisation making things better, but I thought this was an interesting comparison between Norwegian ferries getting built at the same time as CalMac's new ferries in Turkey.
Having used the Norwegian ferries a few times I have to say the operation, efficiency and reliability puts our ferries to shame.
That makes horrible reading. They should be going to the Turks and asking if they can just have two more of what the Norwegians ordered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio sledge
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No idea if its true, but apparently we pay more because of the bespoke nature of our designs. Much of which are based on demands from unions for on board crew facilitiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
What is the longest crossing these boats do? Surely we shouldn’t need on board cabins for crew?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That was my immediate thought, but apparently its for when they are not sailing, the crew need living and leisure facilities on board and having such facilities on land is not acceptable to the unions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Crazy... it would be cheaper to buy a nearby hotel and set it up as crew quarters!Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Yeah you would think so, they could buy a hotel at every port they sail from for less than the additional cost of one single ferry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
You've got to wonder why in Norway they only need 10 crew for their larger ferry but we have facilities for 31?
I think that’s down to the fact we feel the need to put restaurants and bars on ferries even if it’s only a short trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio sledge
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think the longest calmac sailing is Oban-Barra which takes about 5 hours, but I guess they usually sail there and back as one long shift?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The Islay ferry they're talking about in that article is just over 2 hours. They do 4 or 5 crossings a day, some to Port Ellen and some to Port Askaig.
So there absolutely zero need for on board accommodation. And if this was run by a private business that had to make money, there wouldn’t be.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For they short journeys it should be kitted out like a bus. You could have a hot drinks and a snacks vending machine if needed.
I mentioned this on another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Expert on Radio Scotland talking about the design of the boats being all wrong and having sleeping quarters for up to 50 staff, amongst many other problems.
It was rubbished though, cause folk took it as a criticism of the SNP gov.
The Ardrossan crossing is 45 mins but the boats have restaurants to cater for 3 course meals on them!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Mental.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
When I was at sea a lot of people genuinely used to think that we tied up every night and all went to sleep. Good to see that level of misunderstanding as to how vessels are actually run is still around to provide a few laughs. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Seafarers rights have been eroded massively since the early 70s. Blaming the cost of new ferries on Union demands is really no different from laying the blame for the P and O crews sacking on themselves for requiring decent wages. I do respect that you have always been consistent with your Thatcherite anti union views. For me though the most important thing by far any of us can do at the present time to improve our day to day lives is to join a Union .
Self service cafeteria style restaraunts that people actually use. Let’s not try to pretend there’s full silver service going on. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
I bet the crew on those Norwegian boats are earning a pittance as well. [emoji849]Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
If a boats crossing time is only a couple of hours, why do staff need to live aboard?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
With all due respect it was rubbished because it is erm rubbish. Nothing to do with SNP.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Cal Mac in line with most other ferry companies operate an offshore/onshore shift pattern. Typically this can be two weeks on/ two weeks off.
A quick google shows DFDS and P & O (not the best example I admit) operate in the same patterns.
I’m sure they are used but are they cost effective? If they are making new ferries unaffordable, are they worth it?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
I’m not really making a point about workers conditions, this is about why we are paying double what the Norwegians are paying for these boats. Sounds like we need a lot of new ones and it’s time we looked at getting them a bit cheaper.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do you honestly think these large vessels are like cars, the crew hop on, do their single crossing for the day then tie up and go home?:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
When do you think maintenance is done? How about security whilst alongside? Or the nights that can be spent constantly checking and adjusting moorings whilst alongside when the wind gets up. Who moves the vessel when another arrival needs the berth? When is the compulsory regular onboard training done. Do you think the crews all live within commuting distance of the vessel they are employed on? Have you considered the cost of onshore food , travel and accomodation costs?
I’ll stop now, I’m even finding myself annoying. :greengrin
Why is any needed if not in other nations. Why does Norway need only 11 staff. I'm sure they are just as safeQuote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
I’m glad you’ve arrived! 😬😬😬😬Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
I’ve been relying on what I knew of a Cal Mac officer I know through my daughter! I can pipe down now!
Interesting that you've picked out this crossing, as it's the only one to offer food. The rest of the ferries only offer tea, coffee, and snacks as far as I can see.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Pesky Scots, wanting better services for their cash. 😆
Both ships are double the price due to needing catering facilities and 3 times the staff than NorwayQuote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
There is an irony here that Norway are held up as an example of why Scotland should be independent, but when its suggested we follow their lead its not workable !Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I know this is a small thing in the bigger scheme of things, but this is an example where different thinking is required.
I get that boats need looking after, but accommodation and gyms on board for the few when you could have that on shore just doesnt make sense.
I think I should probably point out there's a few indy/snp supporters arguing that these ferries are overpriced... its really not a case of snp can do no bad so nothing to see here as is some times made out.
I wasn't commenting on the new boats, it was the facilities currently offered I was commenting on. I'll have a look at your link regarding the 2 new boats and comparisons to Norway later, if that's ok. 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Not my link but it's up to you and overall not that big a deal in the grand scheme of thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7