Jack Ross

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05-01-2021, 09:54 AM
The 90+2

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

You turned up at the Scottish Cup parade and started supporting Hibs from then didn't you?

Decent timing to start tbf.
05-01-2021, 02:17 PM
BSEJVT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy74

The cup winning team that lost a final a few weeks earlier to Ross County and lost to Falkirk in the play offs?

Absolutely, that same team that beat umpteen SPL teams over the period they were a championship club

There is also a huge difference between losing unluckily to Ross County in that final in which they were demonstrably the better team and getting pumped 2 zip at home and in doing so barely laying a glove on a far poorer Ross County team, hopelessly out of form and having not scored in weeks.

That cup winning team also came back from that loss a few short days later and won a quarter-final replay at Inverness where we have an abysmal record.

That team also came back from the heartache of that Falkirk defeat a week later to win a cup it's forbears had been unsuccessfully trying to win for over a 100 years

If you cant see that that team had far more grit than the current team then there is absolutely nothing I can do to help convince you as a blind man could see the difference.

It is all very well sticking up for the current team, but there is no need to make an absolute fool of yourself in doing so by citing nonsense comparisons.
05-01-2021, 02:48 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSEJVT

Absolutely, that same team that beat umpteen SPL teams over the period they were a championship club

There is also a huge difference between losing unluckily to Ross County in that final in which they were demonstrably the better team and getting pumped 2 zip at home and in doing so barely laying a glove on a far poorer Ross County team, hopelessly out of form and having not scored in weeks.

That cup winning team also came back from that loss a few short days later and won a quarter-final replay at Inverness where we have an abysmal record.

That team also came back from the heartache of that Falkirk defeat a week later to win a cup it's forbears had been unsuccessfully trying to win for over a 100 years

If you cant see that that team had far more grit than the current team then there is absolutely nothing I can do to help convince you as a blind man could see the difference.

It is all very well sticking up for the current team, but there is no need to make an absolute fool of yourself in doing so by citing nonsense comparisons.

All of this is fair but doesn't it also show what a game of fine margins football is? And how tiny little things breaking one way or the other can completely influence how we summarise a manager/team's legacy?

If Gunnarsson's "clearance" is a few inches lower then Hearts win the Scottish Cup 5th Round derby despite Hanlon's equaliser and the amount of character it took for us to win that. Bottlers label slapped on that game.

If Mark Oxley doesn't lose his contact lens up in Inverness maybe he stays in goal and makes a mistake that forces extra time which Caley eventually win. Bottlers label slapped on that game (especially when taken into the consideration of losing the League Cup final days before).

If Oxley doesn't lose his contact lens then we don't sign Conrad Logan and we probably lose the United semi final. Bottlers label slapped on that game.

If Kenny Miller heads home a simple chance in the final we go 2-1 down in the first half and Rangers might have added to that and gone on to win the game comfortably. Bottlers label slapped on that game.

On the other side of that if Alan Muir does his job against Falkirk in the first leg and spots the blatant handball we might well go on to win the game and get promoted.

The point is that there are so many sliding doors in football and it's not worthwhile painting in broad brushes about managers and eras and saying x is a bottler and x isn't. There are so many breaks of fortune good and bad in almost every football match and you sometimes just have to shrug and say that's football. There isn't always a reason to explain why sides lose games.
05-01-2021, 02:52 PM
Andy74

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSEJVT

Absolutely, that same team that beat umpteen SPL teams over the period they were a championship club

There is also a huge difference between losing unluckily to Ross County in that final in which they were demonstrably the better team and getting pumped 2 zip at home and in doing so barely laying a glove on a far poorer Ross County team, hopelessly out of form and having not scored in weeks.

That cup winning team also came back from that loss a few short days later and won a quarter-final replay at Inverness where we have an abysmal record.

That team also came back from the heartache of that Falkirk defeat a week later to win a cup it's forbears had been unsuccessfully trying to win for over a 100 years

If you cant see that that team had far more grit than the current team then there is absolutely nothing I can do to help convince you as a blind man could see the difference.

It is all very well sticking up for the current team, but there is no need to make an absolute fool of yourself in doing so by citing nonsense comparisons.

Nah, you were suggesting that things like losing games wasn’t what the cup final team would do because they had character.

They did lose games, big games.

They also won big games too.

It is absolutely fine to make excuses for the games that team lost, there were circumstances. They were also just terrible some weeks.

The point is that the current team also need to be allowed to see through a number of competitions and games. Judging them already on the fact they lost a cup semi and a couple of league games? The story didn’t end with those defeats for the cup winning team and it isn’t over for this team either.
05-01-2021, 02:53 PM
SHODAN

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

"Losing derbies is never acceptable"? :confused:

It's going to happen. We will lose derbies. Even if we had a good derby record it would happen. You are being petulant in the extreme if you can't accept losing a derby now and then. Not that the two Ross lost were acceptable by the way. But just making a general point.

A home loss - sorry, home trouncing - against a Hearts team spiralling towards relegation and a cup semi final defeat to Hearts team in the division below aren't acceptable. Sorry.
05-01-2021, 02:55 PM
BSEJVT

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

All of this is fair but doesn't it also show what a game of fine margins football is? And how tiny little things breaking one way or the other can completely influence how we summarise a manager/team's legacy?

If Gunnarsson's "clearance" is a few inches lower then Hearts win the Scottish Cup 5th Round derby despite Hanlon's equaliser and the amount of character it took for us to win that. Bottlers label slapped on that game.

If Mark Oxley doesn't lose his contact lens up in Inverness maybe he stays in goal and makes a mistake that forces extra time which Caley eventually win. Bottlers label slapped on that game (especially when taken into the consideration of losing the League Cup final days before).

If Oxley doesn't lose his contact lens then we don't sign Conrad Logan and we probably lose the United semi final. Bottlers label slapped on that game.

If Kenny Miller heads home a simple chance in the final we go 2-1 down in the first half and Rangers might have added to that and gone on to win the game comfortably. Bottlers label slapped on that game.

On the other side of that if Alan Muir does his job against Falkirk in the first leg and spots the blatant handball we might well go on to win the game and get promoted.

The point is that there are so many sliding doors in football and it's not worthwhile painting in broad brushes about managers and eras and saying x is a bottler and x isn't. There are so many breaks of fortune good and bad in almost every football match and you sometimes just have to shrug and say that's football. There isn't always a reason to explain why sides lose games.

Entirely fair comment

There is not as the examples painted by Andy serve to illustrate that

But for every ying there is a yang

That side proved time and again their ability to overcome the odds win games they weren't supposed to and overcome adversity

My point is that the current side have yet to do that, indeed quite the reverse.

To me that empahises that there is more to a signing than their ability and I don't see Ross or for that matter Hecky signing any real leaders and I think that is where the issues lie

Without going back into the records, off the top of my head the only real leader I can recall Lennon signing was Grant Holt.

We have retreated into a stream of shrinking violets bereft of characters like McGinn, McGregor, Bartley, Fontaine, Gray, guys who would put their heads above the parapet and their chests out and take what was coming.
05-01-2021, 03:12 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diclonius

A home loss - sorry, home trouncing - against a Hearts team spiralling towards relegation and a cup semi final defeat to Hearts team in the division below aren't acceptable. Sorry.

Excellent then we're in agreement because I said the exact same. Although on reflection the semi final had lots of those elements of luck/fine margins I was just talking about.
05-01-2021, 06:50 PM
SHODAN

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Excellent then we're in agreement because I said the exact same. Although on reflection the semi final had lots of those elements of luck/fine margins I was just talking about.

Looking back I didn't read your post in full, which I really should have done - apologies.

The fine margins thing is a fair point but it never seems to go the other way.
05-01-2021, 08:14 PM
hibsfan7

Jack ross

He needs a few windows before we judge him
05-01-2021, 09:14 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diclonius

A home loss - sorry, home trouncing - against a Hearts team spiralling towards relegation and a cup semi final defeat to Hearts team in the division below aren't acceptable. Sorry.

Im always curious what people mean when they say its unacceptable. What do you do to not accept it?

Defeats in football happen, defeats to your biggest rivals, that are painful, unfair or downright dreadful happen.

So do you just walk about with your fingers in your ears, shouting la la la, i dont accept it?
05-01-2021, 09:18 PM
Winston Ingram

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

Are we going to bring that game up every time he loses? He is basically doomed if we're still holding that against him.

The tactics against Hearts in the home defeat were amateur. Every team was pumping them with pace over the top and he plays 352 and Boyle at wing back. They pressed us so high he was practically right back. Did he change it when it was obviously a problem. Nope.
05-01-2021, 10:52 PM
Since452

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diclonius

A home loss - sorry, home trouncing - against a Hearts team spiralling towards relegation and a cup semi final defeat to Hearts team in the division below aren't acceptable. Sorry.

It's football. These things happen. No choice but to accept it. We lost at home to Hearts, they got relegated. We lost the semi on the flip of a penalty, they didn't win the cup. No damage done other than to our pride. They would absolutely kill to be in our place right now.
05-01-2021, 11:22 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

Im always curious what people mean when they say its unacceptable. What do you do to not accept it?

Defeats in football happen, defeats to your biggest rivals, that are painful, unfair or downright dreadful happen.

So do you just walk about with your fingers in your ears, shouting la la la, i dont accept it?

:greengrin

Took the words out of my mouth with this post.

There are quite a few Hibs fans (not really on here but more at the games and in the pubs) who seem to think saying "too many fans accept that pish" means something. Just comes across as posturing. "I don't accept Hibs losing". What does that actually mean? It happened. It will happen again. :confused:
06-01-2021, 07:06 AM
Coco Bryce

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

:greengrin

Took the words out of my mouth with this post.

There are quite a few Hibs fans (not really on here but more at the games and in the pubs) who seem to think saying "too many fans accept that pish" means something. Just comes across as posturing. "I don't accept Hibs losing". What does that actually mean? It happened. It will happen again. :confused:

Does it really just say that? Or does it also continue to say '....against Ross County and Livi?'
06-01-2021, 08:19 AM
hibsbollah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coco Bryce

Does it really just say that? Or does it also continue to say '....against Ross County and Livi?'

But still, the question is, what does that actually mean?! Those two teams will have quality pros who will always be capable of beating us on occasions. That’s sport. As players and coaches, You can react by making tactical or personnel changes here and there, but throwing away the blueprint, sacking people and in general reacting in an emotional way gets away from the need to be 100% positive that is vital for all sport.

For fans, you can cry and wet the bed every time you lose to a team with a lower budget than you, but that won’t make it any less likely for it to happen. Because it will, even to the best teams. Just because I’m not getting angry on a message board doesn’t mean I’m ‘accepting failure’ or ‘tolerating mediocrity’. I’m just conscious of my blood pressure :greengrin
06-01-2021, 08:32 AM
SlickShoes

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibsbollah

But still, the question is, what does that actually mean?! Those two teams will have quality pros who will always be capable of beating us on occasions. That’s sport. As players and coaches, You can react by making tactical or personnel changes here and there, but throwing away the blueprint, sacking people and in general reacting in an emotional way gets away from the need to be 100% positive that is vital for all sport.

For fans, you can cry and wet the bed every time you lose to a team with a lower budget than you, but that won’t make it any less likely for it to happen. Because it will, even to the best teams. Just because I’m not getting angry on a message board doesn’t mean I’m ‘accepting failure’ or ‘tolerating mediocrity’. I’m just conscious of my blood pressure :greengrin

I agree with this and I feel like a lot of over the top comments come from people that have never played any competitive sport or its been that long since they did that they have forgotten what it's like to compete.

The other teams in our league are not just there to be beaten, they are actively trying to beat us too and their players are professionals too that are doing their best to win and progress in the sport.

I have played multiple sports and sometimes I am hitting every pass with accuracy and other times its like I'm using someone else's feet or hands. Like the Daryl Horgan conundrum, he was 10/10 brilliant in about 1 out of every 10 games, do people think he was actively setting out to play crap in 9 of those games and just couldn't be bothered? I guess some folk probably do think that.
06-01-2021, 08:58 AM
Since452

If Hibs losing is unacceptable then you support the wrong club lol
06-01-2021, 09:00 AM
Coco Bryce

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibsbollah

But still, the question is, what does that actually mean?! Those two teams will have quality pros who will always be capable of beating us on occasions. That’s sport. As players and coaches, You can react by making tactical or personnel changes here and there, but throwing away the blueprint, sacking people and in general reacting in an emotional way gets away from the need to be 100% positive that is vital for all sport.

For fans, you can cry and wet the bed every time you lose to a team with a lower budget than you, but that won’t make it any less likely for it to happen. Because it will, even to the best teams. Just because I’m not getting angry on a message board doesn’t mean I’m ‘accepting failure’ or ‘tolerating mediocrity’. I’m just conscious of my blood pressure :greengrin

Yes I agree sort of. But we shouldn't be getting beat with a team as bad as Ross Co.

Anyway. There is absolutely nothing I will ever read on a football forum that will boil my blood and start foaming at the mouth :greengrin
06-01-2021, 09:13 AM
Keith_M

The last two games were horrendous, as was the last league derby. I think that viewpoint is totally fair and I'd imagine the manager feels the same.

But complaining about an inability to beat Rangers and Celtc? That's a bit of a push, considering how far ahead of the rest of us both clubs are now. Celtc and Rangers haven't lost a single league game against any of the other clubs this season.

In actual fact, we probably have a better record against both of them this season than almost any other club and were only one minute away from beating Celtc.
06-01-2021, 09:43 AM
J-C

I have no problem getting beat if the other team is either better or worked hard for the win as long as Hibs put in enough of an effort that you can be happy with, the last 2 performances have been atrocious and hopefully just a blip but it was the half arsed way in which they lost that's gotten people's backs up.
06-01-2021, 09:47 AM
Allez Hibs

In the last 25 years, how many Hibs managers have had this much scrutiny of their performance after a year in charge?
06-01-2021, 09:56 AM
Keith_M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

In the last 25 years, how many Hibs managers have had this much scrutiny of their performance after a year in charge?

On here? Every single one of them, once they've had a couple of poor results.
06-01-2021, 09:56 AM
MWHIBBIES

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

In the last 25 years, how many Hibs managers have had this much scrutiny of their performance after a year in charge?

Most of them I'd say? Fenlon, Mixu, Yogi all got slaughtered. Few of the others lasted a year.
06-01-2021, 09:58 AM
Jones28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

In the last 25 years, how many Hibs managers have had this much scrutiny of their performance after a year in charge?

Hecky? But that was because we had gone from a half decent start under him to absolutely ****ing awful after a summer.
06-01-2021, 10:20 AM
Highwayman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

In the last 25 years, how many Hibs managers have had this much scrutiny of their performance after a year in charge?

Every club manager is always subject to close scrutiny from supporters,media and board.Even Alex Ferguson when Manchester United beat Bayern Munich in Barcelona to win the Champions League was summoned back from a holiday in France for a board meeting where one of the. members accused him of believing he was more important to Manchester United than they were to him.Moral of the tale to club managers is you are never going to please. everybody. no matter what you achieve.
06-01-2021, 10:32 AM
Yorkshire HFC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coco Bryce

Yes I agree sort of. But we shouldn't be getting beat with a team as bad as Ross Co.

Anyway. There is absolutely nothing I will ever read on a football forum that will boil my blood and start foaming at the mouth :greengrin

Do you also think we should never beat Celtic or Rangers? Aberdeen? How about Motherwell or St Johnstone?
06-01-2021, 01:32 PM
PH91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coco Bryce

Yes I agree sort of. But we shouldn't be getting beat with a team as bad as Ross Co.

Anyway. There is absolutely nothing I will ever read on a football forum that will boil my blood and start foaming at the mouth :greengrin

I would expand that to we shouldn't be getting beat by a team as bad as ross county regularly.

We will always drop points to teams below us, as we would expect to take points off those above us, it's the nature of the game. It's about making sure those games where we drop points are few and far between, which Ross has generally done a good job of even if the last 2 performances have been woeful.
06-01-2021, 02:38 PM
superfurryhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by PH91

I would expand that to we shouldn't be getting beat by a team as bad as ross county regularly.

We will always drop points to teams below us, as we would expect to take points off those above us, it's the nature of the game. It's about making sure those games where we drop points are few and far between, which Ross has generally done a good job of even if the last 2 performances have been woeful.

Agree, that is football.

Reading the ON this Day thread and seeing how Turnbull's team who finished second two years in a row managed to lose or draw regularly with bloody East Fife or get defeated in cup competitions, by the likes of Arbroath and Montrose, when they were amongst the favourites to win the competition.

The table doesn't lie, neither do results. We are comfortably fourth. We're clearly having a bad run. Every other team in our league , outside the top three are pretty inconsistent. I fully expect Livi to imminently resort back to winless runs and the like. Currently Hibs are struggling, but the stats from the 20 odd games or so played in the league tell me that Ross will get Hibs back on track.
06-01-2021, 05:29 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Agree, that is football.

Reading the ON this Day thread and seeing how Turnbull's team who finished second two years in a row managed to lose or draw regularly with bloody East Fife or get defeated in cup competitions, by the likes of Arbroath and Montrose, when they were amongst the favourites to win the competition.

The table doesn't lie, neither do results. We are comfortably fourth. We're clearly having a bad run. Every other team in our league , outside the top three are pretty inconsistent. I fully expect Livi to imminently resort back to winless runs and the like. Currently Hibs are struggling, but the stats from the 20 odd games or so played in the league tell me that Ross will get Hibs back on track.

Wouldn't say Hibs are comfortably 4th,Livingston have two games in hand to get within 3 points.
06-01-2021, 05:45 PM
Since452

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Wouldn't say Hibs are comfortably 4th,Livingston have two games in hand to get within 3 points.

That's correct but I'd be amazed if Livingston kept their form up. They've got the new manager bounce. Be interesting to see how they bounce back from a couple of poor results.
06-01-2021, 05:49 PM
Key West

Judging Ross on losing to Hearts is unfair, Celtic were 2 up and nearly lost the final to the same opponents.
06-01-2021, 05:59 PM
superfurryhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Wouldn't say Hibs are comfortably 4th,Livingston have two games in hand to get within 3 points.

Yes, at the moment we are comfortably 4th. Livi will implode soon enough.

Out of interest, who do they play in these games?
06-01-2021, 06:12 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key West

Judging Ross on losing to Hearts is unfair, Celtic were 2 up and nearly lost the final to the same opponents.

If he was being judged on one game that would be fair.

It’s the pattern of not being able to win enough big games, allied to that being the same criticism at his previous club that makes people think it’s not a coincidence and isn’t just bad luck.

Im not wanting him sacked though so other people that do, might feel differently
06-01-2021, 06:17 PM
Andy74

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

If he was being judged on one game that would be fair.

It’s the pattern of not being able to win enough big games, allied to that being the same criticism at his previous club that makes people think it’s not a coincidence and isn’t just bad luck.

Im not wanting him sacked though so other people that do, might feel differently

This ‘big games’ thing is just arbitrary recently made up nonsense though isn’t it?

Our general position and outlook is pretty good but we might as well have some other category to start shipping managers out against.
06-01-2021, 06:22 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy74

This ‘big games’ thing is just arbitrary recently made up nonsense though isn’t it?

Our general position and outlook is pretty good but we might as well have some other category to start shipping managers out against.

Not really?

I think it’s always something we’ve been aware of since he got very close to success at Sunderland but couldn’t quite get them over the line.

When we beat Hearts at Tynecastle I think those concerns were put on the back burner. The failure to win any big games since then has alarm bells ringing for people I think. If you combine that with losing against the rubbish now as well, I’m not that surprised there’s a bit of unrest growing.
06-01-2021, 06:32 PM
JimBHibees

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Yes, at the moment we are comfortably 4th. Livi will implode soon enough.

Out of interest, who do they play in these games?

Think it is Celtic and Aberdeen
06-01-2021, 06:34 PM
Andy74

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

Not really?

I think it’s always something we’ve been aware of since he got very close to success at Sunderland but couldn’t quite get them over the line.

When we beat Hearts at Tynecastle I think those concerns were put on the back burner. The failure to win any big games since then has alarm bells ringing for people I think. If you combine that with losing against the rubbish now as well, I’m not that surprised there’s a bit of unrest growing.

Can you let me see a list of big games please?
06-01-2021, 06:43 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy74

Can you let me see a list of big games please?

Absolutely not.

Don’t care anywhere near enough to go through all his games as manager. I think someone said it was 2 wins in 14 though.

The big fixtures, if that’s what you mean though are the games against Rangers, Celtic, hearts, Aberdeen plus semi finals and finals of cup competitions.
06-01-2021, 06:54 PM
B.H.F.C

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

If he was being judged on one game that would be fair.

It’s the pattern of not being able to win enough big games, allied to that being the same criticism at his previous club that makes people think it’s not a coincidence and isn’t just bad luck.

Im not wanting him sacked though so other people that do, might feel differently

He’s definitely not being judged on one game. Or even the big games. Or even the results because people have been critical even when they were better in the first part of the season.

Same as you, I don’t think it’s time to be sacking him but we need to pick things up a bit.
06-01-2021, 07:01 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

Im always curious what people mean when they say its unacceptable. What do you do to not accept it?

Defeats in football happen, defeats to your biggest rivals, that are painful, unfair or downright dreadful happen.

So do you just walk about with your fingers in your ears, shouting la la la, i dont accept it?

Looks like some of Trump's lot might have read your post and got some ideas. :greengrin
06-01-2021, 07:02 PM
calumhibee1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy74

Can you let me see a list of big games please?

If you’re unsure of what constitutes a big game for Hibs then you can ask the club themselves. They categorise the games - Rangers, Celtic, Hearts and i think Aberdeen (although I’m not sure on that one as I don’t pay at the gate) all being big games by the clubs logic as they have them down as Category A, the highest category.

I’m not quite sure why you think the concept of big games is recently made up arbitrary nonsense tbh. There’s always been big games. It’s not a new phenomenon. Trying to get someone to ‘list’ the games just smacks of trying to bore someone into submission so you can claim some sort of victory.
06-01-2021, 07:49 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

If you’re unsure of what constitutes a big game for Hibs then you can ask the club themselves. They categorise the games - Rangers, Celtic, Hearts and i think Aberdeen (although I’m not sure on that one as I don’t pay at the gate) all being big games by the clubs logic as they have them down as Category A, the highest category.

I’m not quite sure why you think the concept of big games is recently made up arbitrary nonsense tbh. There’s always been big games. It’s not a new phenomenon.

Semi finals and finals are taken as given for being big games right? Like make no mistake about it St Johnstone this month is a big game.
06-01-2021, 07:54 PM
GreenCastle

Prefer the term important games.

Think it’s a better description than big.
06-01-2021, 07:56 PM
calumhibee1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Semi finals and finals are taken as given for being big games right? Like make no mistake about it St Johnstone this month is a big game.

Of course. Category A games and latter stages of cups are always big games (or important games if that’s the term folk would prefer!).

Pretending there’s no such thing as games that are bigger than others is quite simply laughable.
06-01-2021, 08:28 PM
h1bs4life

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Agree, that is football.

Reading the ON this Day thread and seeing how Turnbull's team who finished second two years in a row managed to lose or draw regularly with bloody East Fife or get defeated in cup competitions, by the likes of Arbroath and Montrose, when they were amongst the favourites to win the competition.

The table doesn't lie, neither do results. We are comfortably fourth. We're clearly having a bad run. Every other team in our league , outside the top three are pretty inconsistent. I fully expect Livi to imminently resort back to winless runs and the like. Currently Hibs are struggling, but the stats from the 20 odd games or so played in the league tell me that Ross will get Hibs back on track.

When Turnbull's team got beat by the likes of Arbroath and Montrose that was big big news at the time. Nowadays that would hardly get a mention.
The 1st big game I seen at Hampden was probably one of the Turnbull's 1st big games as Hibs manager when we got beat 6-1.
After the game Turnbull vowed we would beat Celtic next time at Hampden and we did Dryborough Cup , League Cup , Dryborough Cup again.

The same happened with Alex Millar and his team , despite all the crap football we had to endure when Murdo Mcleod lifted the League Cup then all ( maybe most )
was forgiven, the fact we almost lost the club the year before made it even more special.

There were a few including myself who were annoyed that we lost the Semi Final but if Jack Ross goes on and wins the League Cup then the Semi Final loss will be a distant memory and him and his team will be regarded as legends.

Football fans of all teams not just Hibs are fickle.
06-01-2021, 08:43 PM
Since452

Quote:

Originally Posted by h1bs4life

When Turnbull's team got beat by the likes of Arbroath and Montrose that was big big news at the time. Nowadays that would hardly get a mention.
The 1st big game I seen at Hampden was probably one of the Turnbull's 1st big games as Hibs manager when we got beat 6-1.
After the game Turnbull vowed we would beat Celtic next time at Hampden and we did Dryborough Cup , League Cup , Dryborough Cup again.

The same happened with Alex Millar and his team , despite all the crap football we had to endure when Murdo Mcleod lifted the League Cup then all ( maybe most )
was forgiven, the fact we almost lost the club the year before made it even more special.

There were a few including myself who were annoyed that we lost the Semi Final but if Jack Ross goes on and wins the League Cup then the Semi Final loss will be a distant memory and him and his team will be regarded as legends.

Football fans of all teams not just Hibs are fickle.

Same with John Collins. People see him through rose tinted glasses because he won the cup. Jack Ross is an infinitely better manager than Collins.
06-01-2021, 09:07 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Looks like some of Trump's lot might have read your post and got some ideas. :greengrin

Make Hibernian Great Again!!!!

😁
06-01-2021, 09:18 PM
Fergus52

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

Absolutely not.

Don’t care anywhere near enough to go through all his games as manager. I think someone said it was 2 wins in 14 though.

The big fixtures, if that’s what you mean though are the games against Rangers, Celtic, hearts, Aberdeen plus semi finals and finals of cup competitions.

That 2 wins in 14 stat is pretty stupid and completely misleading though. More than half those games were against the old firm who's staff budgets are about 10x the size of hibs. A few of those 12 non-wins have included very good performances resulting in draws against sides with much more quality than ours.

The results and performances against Hearts and Aberdeen have been poor on the whole and he can be criticised for that but including the old firm games isn't fair imo, especially when we've had a few very good performances against them under Ross.

If you compare that game when the huns hammered us at ER when jack Ross first came in to the last 3 games against rangers you can clearly see the improvement.
06-01-2021, 09:19 PM
Allez Hibs

Jack Ross Category A games:

P 14 W 2 D 2 L 10

19/20
Aberdeen Home W 3-0
Celtic Away L 2-0
Rangers Home L 3-0
Hearts Away W 2-0
Rangers Away L 2-1
Hearts Home L 3-1
Aberdeen Away L 3-1
20/21
Aberdeen Home L 1-0
Rangers Home D 2-2
Celtic Away L 3-0
HEARTS SF L 2-1
Aberdeen Away L 2-0
Celtic Home D 2-2
Rangers Away L 1-0
06-01-2021, 09:22 PM
Fergus52

I don't really see how you can demand that hibs don't ever get beat off of the likes of Ross county or Livingston, while also bemoaning that our record against Celtic and rangers hasn't been good enough recently.

Our budget is much much closer to Ross countys than it is to Celtics.
06-01-2021, 09:27 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus52

I don't really see how you can demand that hibs don't ever get beat off of the likes of Ross county or Livingston, while also bemoaning that our record against Celtic and rangers hasn't been good enough recently.

Our budget is much much closer to Ross countys than it is to Celtics.

I think thats the problem. Ambition has been watered-down so much from the club over the years that its all down to budget and not the ability of good coaching and good players. Now an element of the support has that watered down ambition.
06-01-2021, 09:33 PM
Fergus52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Jack Ross Category A games:

P 14 W 2 D 2 L 10

19/20
Aberdeen Home W 3-0
Celtic Away L 2-0
Rangers Home L 3-0
Hearts Away W 2-0
Rangers Away L 2-1
Hearts Home L 3-1
Aberdeen Away L 3-1
20/21
Aberdeen Home L 1-0
Rangers Home D 2-2
Celtic Away L 3-0
HEARTS SF L 2-1
Aberdeen Away L 2-0
Celtic Home D 2-2
Rangers Away L 1-0

If you discount the first 3 (think that's fair as Ross had just came in and not really put his mark down on the team yet) then I'd argue only 2 of those games were terrible performances: 3-1 hearts and Aberdeen away this season were both dreadful.

Aberdeen away last season we were controlling the match and looked comfortable until Whittaker's dodgy red card.

Home to Aberdeen this season was a pretty poor boring performance but 0-0 would have been fair, freak penalty conceded by Boyle was the difference.

Both the defeats away to rangers were tight games that could have swung either way, as much as we can really hope for with how good Gerrard has them just now.

3-0 to Celtic flattered them imo, we had a few decent chances we didn't take and they were more clinical on the day.

Semi final was obviously a sore one but on another day nisbets penalty goes in and we go through 2-1, fine margins.
06-01-2021, 09:35 PM
Fergus52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

I think thats the problem. Ambition has been watered-down so much from the club over the years that its all down to budget and not the ability of good coaching and good players. Now an element of the support has that watered down ambition.

Would absolutely love to see hibs challenging for the title but don't think it's realistic.

Perfectly happy to be competing in the latter stages of the cups and on course to qualify for Europe.

If you want more than that then fair play but I'd imagine you'll be waiting a long time
06-01-2021, 09:38 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

I think thats the problem. Ambition has been watered-down so much from the club over the years that its all down to budget and not the ability of good coaching and good players. Now an element of the support has that watered down ambition.

"Ambition" doesn't actually mean anything though does it? In terms of supporters. I want Hibs to win every game but also know that isn't realistic. Therefore when we lose to the Old Firm as long as it's respectable as a performance I don't hold that against the manager (given the massive gap in wages).
06-01-2021, 09:43 PM
calumhibee1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus52

That 2 wins in 14 stat is pretty stupid and completely misleading though. More than half those games were against the old firm who's staff budgets are about 10x the size of hibs. A few of those 12 non-wins have included very good performances resulting in draws against sides with much more quality than ours.

The results and performances against Hearts and Aberdeen have been poor on the whole and he can be criticised for that but including the old firm games isn't fair imo, especially when we've had a few very good performances against them under Ross.

If you compare that game when the huns hammered us at ER when jack Ross first came in to the last 3 games against rangers you can clearly see the improvement.

It’s not misleading at all. They 14 games are the games the fans revel in winning. They’re the games we pick out on the fixture list when it comes out. They’re the games where the high of winning is much higher than the others and the lows are much lower. Quite simply they’re the games the fans care about the most.
06-01-2021, 09:46 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus52

That 2 wins in 14 stat is pretty stupid and completely misleading though. More than half those games were against the old firm who's staff budgets are about 10x the size of hibs. A few of those 12 non-wins have included very good performances resulting in draws against sides with much more quality than ours.

The results and performances against Hearts and Aberdeen have been poor on the whole and he can be criticised for that but including the old firm games isn't fair imo, especially when we've had a few very good performances against them under Ross.

If you compare that game when the huns hammered us at ER when jack Ross first came in to the last 3 games against rangers you can clearly see the improvement.

Misleading? One of the biggest clubs in Scotland!
06-01-2021, 09:53 PM
Hermit Crab

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus52

I don't really see how you can demand that hibs don't ever get beat off of the likes of Ross county or Livingston, while also bemoaning that our record against Celtic and rangers hasn't been good enough recently.

Our budget is much much closer to Ross countys than it is to Celtics.

I don't think its unreasonable for a club of our size to go through the season losing only a small number of games at home. I fully expect us not to lose any home game bar matches v the OF. We are always getting told by the players and manager we are good enough to complete but rarely do at home. Our record speaks for itself, not won back to back home league games in over 2 years. Shocking.
06-01-2021, 10:01 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermit Crab

I don't think its unreasonable for a club of our size to go through the season losing only a small number of games at home. I fully expect us not to lose any home game bar matches v the OF. We are always getting told by the players and manager we are good enough to complete but rarely do at home. Our record speaks for itself, not won back to back home league games in over 2 years. Shocking.

That's a ridiculous expectation that isn't grounded in any sort of reality. I would go as far as to suggest that no non OF club in this century has gone a whole season at home without losing once to a non OF side.
06-01-2021, 10:01 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus52

If you discount the first 3 (think that's fair as Ross had just came in and not really put his mark down on the team yet) then I'd argue only 2 of those games were terrible performances: 3-1 hearts and Aberdeen away this season were both dreadful.

Aberdeen away last season we were controlling the match and looked comfortable until Whittaker's dodgy red card.

Home to Aberdeen this season was a pretty poor boring performance but 0-0 would have been fair, freak penalty conceded by Boyle was the difference.

Both the defeats away to rangers were tight games that could have swung either way, as much as we can really hope for with how good Gerrard has them just now.

3-0 to Celtic flattered them imo, we had a few decent chances we didn't take and they were more clinical on the day.

Semi final was obviously a sore one but on another day nisbets penalty goes in and we go through 2-1, fine margins.

Why just the first 3? If you’re discounting the first 3 then I think you need to discount the 4th as well, was also before his first transfer window wasn’t it?

There is a lot of fine margins in the games, as you say, the semi final in particular that’s true.

I think the concerning thing is that he came to us with that reputation and it’s continued with us. At what point does that become no longer a coincidence and something he’s not doing right in terms of how he prepares and motivates the team before a big game?

Every time I write a post like this I hope it’s acting as a sort of hex that’ll get thrown back at me as soon as we win a big game again. I’d love it if we were to win the league cup but I really don’t think we will.

I think Ross is probably an excellent coach and I don’t doubt the players love him, I think he’s a sensible guy that knows football inside out. I am not convinced he’s a great motivator though.
06-01-2021, 10:05 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

Why just the first 3? If you’re discounting the first 3 then I think you need to discount the 4th as well, was also before his first transfer window wasn’t it?

There is a lot of fine margins in the games, as you say, the semi final in particular that’s true.

I think the concerning thing is that he came to us with that reputation and it’s continued with us. At what point does that become no longer a coincidence and something he’s not doing right in terms of how he prepares and motivates the team before a big game?

Every time I write a post like this I hope it’s acting as a sort of hex that’ll get thrown back at me as soon as we win a big game again. I’d love it if we were to win the league cup but I really don’t think we will.

I think Ross is probably an excellent coach and I don’t doubt the players love him, I think he’s a sensible guy that knows football inside out. I am not convinced he’s a great motivator though.

Did he come with that reputation? He got Sunderland to the play-off final and they've stagnated without him. He certainly never bottled any notable big games St Mirren or Alloa had.
06-01-2021, 10:09 PM
calumhibee1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Did he come with that reputation? He got Sunderland to the play-off final and they've stagnated without him. He certainly never bottled any notable big games St Mirren or Alloa had.

They lost the playoff final though, which is the point.
06-01-2021, 10:11 PM
Eyrie

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

I’m presuming that the fact you said they got to the play off final means they lost it? I genuinely dont know if they did or not but on the presumption they did, does that not prove the point even more?

Does that not mean he won a big game (the semi) to get to the final?
06-01-2021, 10:12 PM
B.H.F.C

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Did he come with that reputation? He got Sunderland to the play-off final and they've stagnated without him. He certainly never bottled any notable big games St Mirren or Alloa had.

Getting Sunderland to the playoff final wasn’t success.
06-01-2021, 10:13 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Did he come with that reputation? He got Sunderland to the play-off final and they've stagnated without him. He certainly never bottled any notable big games St Mirren or Alloa had.

Yes, he came with that reputation. It was an underwhelming appointment at the time.
06-01-2021, 10:14 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyrie

Does that not mean he won a big game (the semi) to get to the final?

Thanks. That's what I was getting at. Two legs in the semi final so two big games.

Again we're back to fine margins in terms of the final. Charlton won it in the last minute of injury time. Is that bottling or is it bad luck? Maybe both? Maybe football is too nuanced as a sport for people to look at a defeat of a game they quite probably didn't even watch and declare "this builds to Jack Ross and his reputation as a big game bottler".
06-01-2021, 10:14 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

They lost the playoff final though, which is the point.

Eddie Turnbull's side lost a few finals (badly).
06-01-2021, 10:14 PM
calumhibee1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyrie

Does that not mean he won a big game (the semi) to get to the final?

Apologies, I’ve just edited my post because I realised he obviously lost it because they’re still in League One - brains not working at night :greengrin

Yup, he did. But when it came to an even bigger game, he lost. It’s pretty much undeniable that his record at us in big games is really poor. I’m not sure how that’s even debatable. Even if people want to remove the Rangers and Celtic games, he’s still played 7 won 2 lost 5.

Considering one of them was also a cup semi final against our biggest rivals who are lower league and one was also a trouncing by our biggest rivals who were bottom of the league and ended up relegated its an appalling record in itself even without the OF games.
06-01-2021, 10:15 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

They lost the playoff final though, which is the point.

Johnson’s paint trophy as well I think?

Not a big trophy for neutrals to get excited about but think Sunderland took a good number of fans to Wembley for it.
06-01-2021, 10:15 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

Getting Sunderland to the playoff final wasn’t success.

They've missed out on the play-offs once already since he left and they're on course to do it again as they're down in 11th right now. He left them in 5th. Maybe relatively that is a success? :aok:
06-01-2021, 10:16 PM
calumhibee1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Thanks. That's what I was getting at. Two legs in the semi final so two big games.

Again we're back to fine margins in terms of the final. Charlton won it in the last minute of injury time. Is that bottling or is it bad luck? Maybe both? Maybe football is too nuanced as a sport for people to look at a defeat of a game they quite probably didn't even watch and declare "this builds to Jack Ross and his reputation as a big game bottler".

You could maybe put it down to bad luck if it didn’t keep happening in big games - if we managed to win more than 2 in 14 then you could have said the Celtic game was bad luck, or the semi final even. Unfortunately it happens with alarming frequency that we don’t manage to win big games. That would suggest it’s not just bad luck.
06-01-2021, 10:18 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

You could maybe put it down to bad luck if it didn’t keep happening in big games - if we managed to win more than 2 in 14 then you could have said the Celtic game was bad luck, or the semi final even. Unfortunately it happens with alarming frequency that we don’t manage to win big games. That would suggest it’s not just bad luck.

Big games imply better opposition and as such your chances of winning said big games tend to decrease. If the downside to 4th place, regular semi finals (hopefully turning into finals and trophies this season) and signing great players like Nisbet is that we lose an "alarming" number of big games, maybe it's actually not as big of a problem as people are making it out to be? Unless you harbour delusional ambitions of Hibs winning the league or never losing a home game outwith the OF.
06-01-2021, 10:19 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Yes, he came with that reputation. It was an underwhelming appointment at the time.

Dont talk pish.

It was not an underwhelming appointment at all.

You clearly dont like him, fair enough. Why not just say that rather than trying to contort these ridiculous reasons.

Hibs are currently fourth, having a - literally - above average season, with a manager who has been in the job for a year.

Thats progress by any measure. Only folk who cant see that are those who dont want to see it.
06-01-2021, 10:19 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

Johnson’s paint trophy as well I think?

Not a big trophy for neutrals to get excited about but think Sunderland took a good number of fans to Wembley for it.

Was a massive game for Sunderland. Sunderland were trying to win a trophy at Wembley for the first time in 40+ years.
06-01-2021, 10:22 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Yes, he came with that reputation. It was an underwhelming appointment at the time.

I don’t think thats the right word for it.

I think we were in a dodgy position at the time and the wrong appointment could have been disastrous for us, see Hearts as an example.

I think he was a safe appointment at the time and I think that’s still the case. I don’t think we’ll ever be in bother with him and I think we’d always finish top 6 with him.

I don’t think he’ll really capture the imagination of the fans though and I don’t think it’ll be a particularly entertaining or exciting time with him in charge. I don’t think he’ll ever do enough to warrant being sacked but I’m far from convinced season ticket sales will remain at their current decent levels.
06-01-2021, 10:24 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

I don’t think thats the right word for it.

I think we were in a dodgy position at the time and the wrong appointment could have been disastrous for us, see Hearts as an example.

I think he was a safe appointment at the time and I think that’s still the case. I don’t think we’ll ever be in bother with him and I think we’d always finish top 6 with him.

I don’t think he’ll really capture the imagination of the fans though and I don’t think it’ll be a particularly entertaining or exciting time with him in charge. I don’t think he’ll ever do enough to warrant being sacked but I’m far from convinced season ticket sales will remain at their current decent levels.

Agreed, perhaps cautious is the right word.
06-01-2021, 10:24 PM
calumhibee1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Big games imply better opposition and as such your chances of winning said big games tend to decrease. If the downside to 4th place, regular semi finals (hopefully turning into finals and trophies this season) and signing great players like Nisbet is that we lose an "alarming" number of big games, maybe it's actually not as big of a problem as people are making it out to be? Unless you harbour delusional ambitions of Hibs winning the league or never losing a home game outwith the OF.

Absolutely, and I wouldn’t expect us to win loads of them. I wouldn’t even expect us to win the majority of them. But 2 in 14 is dreadful, especially when at least 4 of them (3 Aberdeen defeats and the Hearts defeat at ER) have been embarrassing. For nearly 1/3rd of our big games under him to have been embarrassing defeats really isn’t great.

The issue I think a lot of people have is that 4th and cup semi finals etc is the minimum we should be expecting. To be able to get anything more than the minimum then we really need to improve that record in big games. We’ll never finish above Aberdeen for example if we keep rolling over to them.
06-01-2021, 10:25 PM
Magpie

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

They've missed out on the play-offs once already since he left and they're on course to do it again as they're down in 11th right now. He left them in 5th. Maybe relatively that is a success? :aok:

Or him and the managers who have succeeded him all failed.
06-01-2021, 10:25 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

I don’t think thats the right word for it.

I think we were in a dodgy position at the time and the wrong appointment could have been disastrous for us, see Hearts as an example.

I think he was a safe appointment at the time and I think that’s still the case. I don’t think we’ll ever be in bother with him and I think we’d always finish top 6 with him.

I don’t think he’ll really capture the imagination of the fans though and I don’t think it’ll be a particularly entertaining or exciting time with him in charge. I don’t think he’ll ever do enough to warrant being sacked but I’m far from convinced season ticket sales will remain at their current decent levels.

And yet if he wins the League Cup (which we are bookies favourites to do) he'll be hailed for years as a "Hibs legend" - something that I don't even think would be fair but that's all it takes. Collins was an absolutely useless manager away from the football pitch. His transfers were a ****ing disgrace. And yet he's still fondly thought of because he lifted a cup at Hampden. We've won six domestic cups in our history maybe let's have some faith in the guy who may well take us to number seven.
06-01-2021, 10:28 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

And yet if he wins the League Cup (which we are bookies favourites to do) he'll be hailed for years as a "Hibs legend" - something that I don't even think would be fair but that's all it takes. Collins was an absolutely useless manager away from the football pitch. His transfers were a ****ing disgrace. And yet he's still fondly thought of because he lifted a cup at Hampden. We've won six domestic cups in our history maybe let's have some faith in the guy who may well take us to number seven.

Yes, if he wins the League Cup he will go down as a Hibs Legend. Fickle game. I don't think people want him sacked just a bit more about Hibs in big games.
06-01-2021, 10:29 PM
Hermit Crab

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

That's a ridiculous expectation that isn't grounded in any sort of reality. I would go as far as to suggest that no non OF club in this century has gone a whole season at home without losing once to a non OF side.

Close, Hearts went through the 05/06 season losing twice at home, once to Celtic 2-3 and once to Aberdeen 1-2.

That same season we lost 7 games at home. Celtic, ICT, Falkirk, Aberdeen, Celtic, ICT and Rangers. We lost at home to ***** that season too. We've been doing it for years.

We also got scudded 3 times out of 5 games v hearts that season, including that semi final.
06-01-2021, 10:30 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

And yet if he wins the League Cup (which we are bookies favourites to do) he'll be hailed for years as a "Hibs legend" - something that I don't even think would be fair but that's all it takes. Collins was an absolutely useless manager away from the football pitch. His transfers were a ****ing disgrace. And yet he's still fondly thought of because he lifted a cup at Hampden. We've won six domestic cups in our history maybe let's have some faith in the guy who may well take us to number seven.

I think a better comparison would be Alex Miller.

One of the few managers to win a trophy in my lifetime but not sure Legend is the first word that comes to mind when I think of his time in charge. Boring is probably closer to the Mark, even if he did sign some exciting players.
06-01-2021, 10:31 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

Absolutely, and I wouldn’t expect us to win loads of them. I wouldn’t even expect us to win the majority of them. But 2 in 14 is dreadful, especially when at least 4 of them (3 Aberdeen defeats and the Hearts defeat at ER) have been embarrassing. For nearly 1/3rd of our big games under him to have been embarrassing defeats really isn’t great.

The issue I think a lot of people have is that 4th and cup semi finals etc is the minimum we should be expecting. To be able to get anything more than the minimum then we really need to improve that record in big games. We’ll never finish above Aberdeen for example if we keep rolling over to them.

Well a lot of people are very wrong.

4th and a semi final is absolutely NOT the minimum for Hibs.

Since Mowbray, i think Hibs have finished 4th twice, and both those managers were subsequently sacked and replaced with managers who didnt finish 4th, or even close to it.
06-01-2021, 10:33 PM
B.H.F.C

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

Dont talk pish.

It was not an underwhelming appointment at all.

You clearly dont like him, fair enough. Why not just say that rather than trying to contort these ridiculous reasons.

Hibs are currently fourth, having a - literally - above average season, with a manager who has been in the job for a year.

Thats progress by any measure. Only folk who cant see that are those who dont want to see it.

I’ve seen very few folk ever deny we’re in a better position than when he joined. It’s just that, quite a number of people, don’t particularly enjoy what they’ve seen from his team (that’s been quite consistent even when we were in better form results wise).

As for whether you think his appointment was underwhelming, that’s entirely down to opinion. His appointment didn’t excite me at all. I’m still not particularly excited by him or his team. I also hope he wins the League Cup and prove me wrong.
06-01-2021, 10:33 PM
Allez Hibs

Under McLeish, Mowbray and Collins the home record was generally very good with all of them. Old Firm always got a game but there was the odd defeat to Inverness or Livingston that left you baffled but Hibs didn't lose often at home.
06-01-2021, 10:37 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

Absolutely, and I wouldn’t expect us to win loads of them. I wouldn’t even expect us to win the majority of them. But 2 in 14 is dreadful, especially when at least 4 of them (3 Aberdeen defeats and the Hearts defeat at ER) have been embarrassing.

The issue I think a lot of people have is that 4th and cup semi finals etc is the minimum we should be expecting. To be able to get anything more than the minimum then we really need to improve that record in big games. We’ll never finish above Aberdeen for example if we keep rolling over to them.

There is zero historical evidence to support that idea though. That's the even bigger issue! What you've said is not a minimum expectation. They are our usual expectations and if anything slightly above them. Have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...n_F.C._seasons

We have finished in the top four a total of six times since Eddie Turnbull left Hibs at the end of the 70s.

94-95, 00-01, 04-05, 05-06, 09-10, 17-18.

Jack Ross has got us to cup semi finals in both seasons so far and looks to have us on course to finish 4th for just the seventh time since John Lennon was killed. It's baffling that people pretend this is the minimum expectations for Hibs. :confused: Unless you are seriously suggesting we have underperformed for 85% of the 40 seasons we've had since 1980?
06-01-2021, 10:38 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

Well a lot of people are very wrong.

4th and a semi final is absolutely NOT the minimum for Hibs.

Since Mowbray, i think Hibs have finished 4th twice, and both those managers were subsequently sacked and replaced with managers who didnt finish 4th, or even close to it.

4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.
06-01-2021, 10:41 PM
bigwheel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.

Nonsense, Hughes was fired in October of the following season after a dreadful run of results....

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06-01-2021, 10:41 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.

Explain to me (if 4th is the minimum) why Hibs have finished 4th just six times since the late 70s?

Also that Alex Smith thing is nonsense he was sacked the following season because Aberdeen went off the rails after Jocky Scott left as his co-manager.
06-01-2021, 10:44 PM
B.H.F.C

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

Well a lot of people are very wrong.

4th and a semi final is absolutely NOT the minimum for Hibs.

Since Mowbray, i think Hibs have finished 4th twice, and both those managers were subsequently sacked and replaced with managers who didnt finish 4th, or even close to it.

It’s obviously not the minimum that has been achieved. But it’s the minimum expectation of what should be achieved (and the club themselves have been vocal about that over the last few years). That’s why managers have lost their job at Hibs with such regularity, for not achieving that as a minimum. Yogi and Lennon were all right whilst challenging for that type of position, as soon as the drop off came we moved on to the next guy.
06-01-2021, 10:46 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

There is zero historical evidence to support that idea though. That's the even bigger issue! What you've said is not a minimum expectation. They are our usual expectations and if anything slightly above them. Have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...n_F.C._seasons

We have finished in the top four a total of six times since Eddie Turnbull left Hibs at the end of the 70s.

94-95, 00-01, 04-05, 05-06, 09-10, 17-18.

Jack Ross has got us to cup semi finals in both seasons so far and looks to have us on course to finish 4th for just the seventh time since John Lennon was killed. It's baffling that people pretend this is the minimum expectations for Hibs. :confused: Unless you are seriously suggesting we have underperformed for 85% of the 40 seasons we've had since 1980?

I know there isn’t a direct correlation between finances and league success but probably worth remembering that for the majority of all those seasons there’s been 4 teams spending more than us, and by rights should have a better team. This season there’s only 3 so 4th place is the minimum where we should be this season. There’s nobody below us that I’m thinking we are doing well to be above.

I think there are two different arguments about Ross. I think there’s the people going mental after the last 2 defeats wanting him sacked. I don’t agree with them. Then I think there’s another group that don’t think he’s that good but has earned the right to prove us wrong as he’s got us in a decent enough position so far, even if it has been pretty *****. That’s the category I fall into.
06-01-2021, 10:46 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75

Explain to me (if 4th is the minimum) why Hibs have finished 4th just six times since the late 70s?

Also that Alex Smith thing is nonsense he was sacked the following season because Aberdeen went off the rails after Jocky Scott left as his co-manager.

So should we celebrate 4th place like Arsenal used to? Will it get us a Champions League place?
06-01-2021, 10:48 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

I’ve seen very few folk ever deny we’re in a better position than when he joined. It’s just that, quite a number of people, don’t particularly enjoy what they’ve seen from his team (that’s been quite consistent even when we were in better form results wise).

As for whether you think his appointment was underwhelming, that’s entirely down to opinion. His appointment didn’t excite me at all. I’m still not particularly excited by him or his team. I also hope he wins the League Cup and prove me wrong.

I appreciate that, and the current team arent brilliant to watch, especially at home.

What they are though, is (last two games excepted!) well structured, well coached and with good players in key positions.

The idea that every Hibs team has to be entertaining is not realistic, and has never been the case.

I want a team to win, do well consistently in league and have a stab at the cups. Thats exactly what Ross has them doing.

Defensive solidity is what consistency is founded upon. People complain about typical Hibs, then moan when a manager tries to make them not typical Hibs, and has largely succeded so far.

Now, if Hibs got to the stage Aberdeen are at, where consistent results in league had been achieved, then id agree Hibs should be looking for more.

But until such times as we are all bored by constant 4th and 3rd place finishes, im happy to win with a minimum of fuss.

Some Hibs fans are basically trying to do exactly what some Hearts fans did when they took the huff with Neilson for losing a cup tie against Hibs, and chased him out when they were 2nd or 3rd in the league. That hasnt worked out well for them.
06-01-2021, 10:51 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.

How did that work out for Aberdeen?

You might think 4th should be the minimum, but it is literally and demonstrably not.
06-01-2021, 10:52 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwheel

Nonsense, Hughes was fired in October of the following season after a dreadful run of results....

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And his replacement wasnt exactly an upgrade

*shudders*
06-01-2021, 10:53 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

Some Hibs fans are basically trying to do exactly what some Hearts fans did when they took the huff with Neilson for losing a cup tie against Hibs, and chased him out when they were 2nd or 3rd in the league. That hasnt worked out well for them.

That's an excellent (and worrying) point. :agree:
06-01-2021, 10:56 PM
HibeeHibernian4

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingo70

I know there isn’t a direct correlation between finances and league success but probably worth remembering that for the majority of all those seasons there’s been 4 teams spending more than us, and by rights should have a better team. This season there’s only 3 so 4th place is the minimum where we should be this season. There’s nobody below us that I’m thinking we are doing well to be above.

Okay that's a fair point so I'll be charitable and extend it to top 5 finishes. Guess what? Only five more of them. So only 11 out of the last 40 years that we've reached "minimum expectations" in the league (and half of them fall below the criteria that some are setting!). Maybe people need to understand that Hibs minimum expectations are clearly top 6 and extended cup runs, but even then we're maddeningly inconsistent enough down the years for that to not be the case every season.
06-01-2021, 10:56 PM
James Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

It’s obviously not the minimum that has been achieved. But it’s the minimum expectation of what should be achieved (and the club themselves have been vocal about that over the last few years). That’s why managers have lost their job at Hibs with such regularity, for not achieving that as a minimum. Yogi and Lennon were all right whilst challenging for that type of position, as soon as the drop off came we moved on to the next guy.

I agree this year it should be the target. And if it is, its one Hibs are on track to achieve, and still with a chance to exceed.

Hence why the negativity feels way over the top.
06-01-2021, 10:56 PM
bingo70

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

How did that work out for Aberdeen?

You might think 4th should be the minimum, but it is literally and demonstrably not.

Who do you think Hibs could finish behind this season that would make 5th place acceptable?

Other than the old firm there’s Aberdeen, who are better positioned than us to finish 3rd. Anything below 4th this season would be shocking, regardless of what’s happened in the past.
06-01-2021, 10:57 PM
bigwheel

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

And his replacement wasnt exactly an upgrade

*shudders*

You’re so right...between Hughes and Stubbs we had a run of managers that can make nightmares seem fun...

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06-01-2021, 10:58 PM
Allez Hibs

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Stephen

Some Hibs fans are basically trying to do exactly what some Hearts fans did when they took the huff with Neilson for losing a cup tie against Hibs, and chased him out when they were 2nd or 3rd in the league. That hasnt worked out well for them.

Hibs haven't finished 4th yet this season though. Could be a scramble to finish in the top 6 like last season.

Neilson had finished 3rd with Hearts the first season after they were promoted?

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