Jack Ross

[HibeeHibernian4]

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You could maybe put it down to bad luck if it didn’t keep happening in big games - if we managed to win more than 2 in 14 then you could have said the Celtic game was bad luck, or the semi final even. Unfortunately it happens with alarming frequency that we don’t manage to win big games. That would suggest it’s not just bad luck.

Big games imply better opposition and as such your chances of winning said big games tend to decrease. If the downside to 4th place, regular semi finals (hopefully turning into finals and trophies this season) and signing great players like Nisbet is that we lose an "alarming" number of big games, maybe it's actually not as big of a problem as people are making it out to be? Unless you harbour delusional ambitions of Hibs winning the league or never losing a home game outwith the OF.

[James Stephen]

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Yes, he came with that reputation. It was an underwhelming appointment at the time.

Dont talk pish.

It was not an underwhelming appointment at all.

You clearly dont like him, fair enough. Why not just say that rather than trying to contort these ridiculous reasons.

Hibs are currently fourth, having a - literally - above average season, with a manager who has been in the job for a year.

Thats progress by any measure. Only folk who cant see that are those who dont want to see it.

[Allez Hibs]

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Johnson’s paint trophy as well I think?

Not a big trophy for neutrals to get excited about but think Sunderland took a good number of fans to Wembley for it.

Was a massive game for Sunderland. Sunderland were trying to win a trophy at Wembley for the first time in 40+ years.

[bingo70]

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Yes, he came with that reputation. It was an underwhelming appointment at the time.

I don’t think thats the right word for it.

I think we were in a dodgy position at the time and the wrong appointment could have been disastrous for us, see Hearts as an example.

I think he was a safe appointment at the time and I think that’s still the case. I don’t think we’ll ever be in bother with him and I think we’d always finish top 6 with him.

I don’t think he’ll really capture the imagination of the fans though and I don’t think it’ll be a particularly entertaining or exciting time with him in charge. I don’t think he’ll ever do enough to warrant being sacked but I’m far from convinced season ticket sales will remain at their current decent levels.

[Allez Hibs]

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I don’t think thats the right word for it.

I think we were in a dodgy position at the time and the wrong appointment could have been disastrous for us, see Hearts as an example.

I think he was a safe appointment at the time and I think that’s still the case. I don’t think we’ll ever be in bother with him and I think we’d always finish top 6 with him.

I don’t think he’ll really capture the imagination of the fans though and I don’t think it’ll be a particularly entertaining or exciting time with him in charge. I don’t think he’ll ever do enough to warrant being sacked but I’m far from convinced season ticket sales will remain at their current decent levels.

Agreed, perhaps cautious is the right word.

[calumhibee1]

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Big games imply better opposition and as such your chances of winning said big games tend to decrease. If the downside to 4th place, regular semi finals (hopefully turning into finals and trophies this season) and signing great players like Nisbet is that we lose an "alarming" number of big games, maybe it's actually not as big of a problem as people are making it out to be? Unless you harbour delusional ambitions of Hibs winning the league or never losing a home game outwith the OF.

Absolutely, and I wouldn’t expect us to win loads of them. I wouldn’t even expect us to win the majority of them. But 2 in 14 is dreadful, especially when at least 4 of them (3 Aberdeen defeats and the Hearts defeat at ER) have been embarrassing. For nearly 1/3rd of our big games under him to have been embarrassing defeats really isn’t great.

The issue I think a lot of people have is that 4th and cup semi finals etc is the minimum we should be expecting. To be able to get anything more than the minimum then we really need to improve that record in big games. We’ll never finish above Aberdeen for example if we keep rolling over to them.

[Magpie]

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They've missed out on the play-offs once already since he left and they're on course to do it again as they're down in 11th right now. He left them in 5th. Maybe relatively that is a success?

Or him and the managers who have succeeded him all failed.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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I don’t think thats the right word for it.

I think we were in a dodgy position at the time and the wrong appointment could have been disastrous for us, see Hearts as an example.

I think he was a safe appointment at the time and I think that’s still the case. I don’t think we’ll ever be in bother with him and I think we’d always finish top 6 with him.

I don’t think he’ll really capture the imagination of the fans though and I don’t think it’ll be a particularly entertaining or exciting time with him in charge. I don’t think he’ll ever do enough to warrant being sacked but I’m far from convinced season ticket sales will remain at their current decent levels.

And yet if he wins the League Cup (which we are bookies favourites to do) he'll be hailed for years as a "Hibs legend" - something that I don't even think would be fair but that's all it takes. Collins was an absolutely useless manager away from the football pitch. His transfers were a ****ing disgrace. And yet he's still fondly thought of because he lifted a cup at Hampden. We've won six domestic cups in our history maybe let's have some faith in the guy who may well take us to number seven.

[Allez Hibs]

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And yet if he wins the League Cup (which we are bookies favourites to do) he'll be hailed for years as a "Hibs legend" - something that I don't even think would be fair but that's all it takes. Collins was an absolutely useless manager away from the football pitch. His transfers were a ****ing disgrace. And yet he's still fondly thought of because he lifted a cup at Hampden. We've won six domestic cups in our history maybe let's have some faith in the guy who may well take us to number seven.

Yes, if he wins the League Cup he will go down as a Hibs Legend. Fickle game. I don't think people want him sacked just a bit more about Hibs in big games.

[Hermit Crab]

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That's a ridiculous expectation that isn't grounded in any sort of reality. I would go as far as to suggest that no non OF club in this century has gone a whole season at home without losing once to a non OF side.

Close, Hearts went through the 05/06 season losing twice at home, once to Celtic 2-3 and once to Aberdeen 1-2.

That same season we lost 7 games at home. Celtic, ICT, Falkirk, Aberdeen, Celtic, ICT and Rangers. We lost at home to ***** that season too. We've been doing it for years.

We also got scudded 3 times out of 5 games v hearts that season, including that semi final.

[bingo70]

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And yet if he wins the League Cup (which we are bookies favourites to do) he'll be hailed for years as a "Hibs legend" - something that I don't even think would be fair but that's all it takes. Collins was an absolutely useless manager away from the football pitch. His transfers were a ****ing disgrace. And yet he's still fondly thought of because he lifted a cup at Hampden. We've won six domestic cups in our history maybe let's have some faith in the guy who may well take us to number seven.

I think a better comparison would be Alex Miller.

One of the few managers to win a trophy in my lifetime but not sure Legend is the first word that comes to mind when I think of his time in charge. Boring is probably closer to the Mark, even if he did sign some exciting players.

[James Stephen]

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Absolutely, and I wouldn’t expect us to win loads of them. I wouldn’t even expect us to win the majority of them. But 2 in 14 is dreadful, especially when at least 4 of them (3 Aberdeen defeats and the Hearts defeat at ER) have been embarrassing. For nearly 1/3rd of our big games under him to have been embarrassing defeats really isn’t great.

The issue I think a lot of people have is that 4th and cup semi finals etc is the minimum we should be expecting. To be able to get anything more than the minimum then we really need to improve that record in big games. We’ll never finish above Aberdeen for example if we keep rolling over to them.

Well a lot of people are very wrong.

4th and a semi final is absolutely NOT the minimum for Hibs.

Since Mowbray, i think Hibs have finished 4th twice, and both those managers were subsequently sacked and replaced with managers who didnt finish 4th, or even close to it.

[B.H.F.C]

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Dont talk pish.

It was not an underwhelming appointment at all.

You clearly dont like him, fair enough. Why not just say that rather than trying to contort these ridiculous reasons.

Hibs are currently fourth, having a - literally - above average season, with a manager who has been in the job for a year.

Thats progress by any measure. Only folk who cant see that are those who dont want to see it.

I’ve seen very few folk ever deny we’re in a better position than when he joined. It’s just that, quite a number of people, don’t particularly enjoy what they’ve seen from his team (that’s been quite consistent even when we were in better form results wise).

As for whether you think his appointment was underwhelming, that’s entirely down to opinion. His appointment didn’t excite me at all. I’m still not particularly excited by him or his team. I also hope he wins the League Cup and prove me wrong.

[Allez Hibs]

Under McLeish, Mowbray and Collins the home record was generally very good with all of them. Old Firm always got a game but there was the odd defeat to Inverness or Livingston that left you baffled but Hibs didn't lose often at home.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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Absolutely, and I wouldn’t expect us to win loads of them. I wouldn’t even expect us to win the majority of them. But 2 in 14 is dreadful, especially when at least 4 of them (3 Aberdeen defeats and the Hearts defeat at ER) have been embarrassing.

The issue I think a lot of people have is that 4th and cup semi finals etc is the minimum we should be expecting. To be able to get anything more than the minimum then we really need to improve that record in big games. We’ll never finish above Aberdeen for example if we keep rolling over to them.

There is zero historical evidence to support that idea though. That's the even bigger issue! What you've said is not a minimum expectation. They are our usual expectations and if anything slightly above them. Have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...n_F.C._seasons

We have finished in the top four a total of six times since Eddie Turnbull left Hibs at the end of the 70s.

94-95, 00-01, 04-05, 05-06, 09-10, 17-18.

Jack Ross has got us to cup semi finals in both seasons so far and looks to have us on course to finish 4th for just the seventh time since John Lennon was killed. It's baffling that people pretend this is the minimum expectations for Hibs. Unless you are seriously suggesting we have underperformed for 85% of the 40 seasons we've had since 1980?

[Allez Hibs]

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Well a lot of people are very wrong.

4th and a semi final is absolutely NOT the minimum for Hibs.

Since Mowbray, i think Hibs have finished 4th twice, and both those managers were subsequently sacked and replaced with managers who didnt finish 4th, or even close to it.

4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.

[bigwheel]

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4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.

Nonsense, Hughes was fired in October of the following season after a dreadful run of results....


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[HibeeHibernian4]

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4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.

Explain to me (if 4th is the minimum) why Hibs have finished 4th just six times since the late 70s?

Also that Alex Smith thing is nonsense he was sacked the following season because Aberdeen went off the rails after Jocky Scott left as his co-manager.

[B.H.F.C]

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Well a lot of people are very wrong.

4th and a semi final is absolutely NOT the minimum for Hibs.

Since Mowbray, i think Hibs have finished 4th twice, and both those managers were subsequently sacked and replaced with managers who didnt finish 4th, or even close to it.

It’s obviously not the minimum that has been achieved. But it’s the minimum expectation of what should be achieved (and the club themselves have been vocal about that over the last few years). That’s why managers have lost their job at Hibs with such regularity, for not achieving that as a minimum. Yogi and Lennon were all right whilst challenging for that type of position, as soon as the drop off came we moved on to the next guy.

[bingo70]

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There is zero historical evidence to support that idea though. That's the even bigger issue! What you've said is not a minimum expectation. They are our usual expectations and if anything slightly above them. Have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...n_F.C._seasons

We have finished in the top four a total of six times since Eddie Turnbull left Hibs at the end of the 70s.

94-95, 00-01, 04-05, 05-06, 09-10, 17-18.

Jack Ross has got us to cup semi finals in both seasons so far and looks to have us on course to finish 4th for just the seventh time since John Lennon was killed. It's baffling that people pretend this is the minimum expectations for Hibs. Unless you are seriously suggesting we have underperformed for 85% of the 40 seasons we've had since 1980?

I know there isn’t a direct correlation between finances and league success but probably worth remembering that for the majority of all those seasons there’s been 4 teams spending more than us, and by rights should have a better team. This season there’s only 3 so 4th place is the minimum where we should be this season. There’s nobody below us that I’m thinking we are doing well to be above.

I think there are two different arguments about Ross. I think there’s the people going mental after the last 2 defeats wanting him sacked. I don’t agree with them. Then I think there’s another group that don’t think he’s that good but has earned the right to prove us wrong as he’s got us in a decent enough position so far, even if it has been pretty *****. That’s the category I fall into.

[Allez Hibs]

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Explain to me (if 4th is the minimum) why Hibs have finished 4th just six times since the late 70s?

Also that Alex Smith thing is nonsense he was sacked the following season because Aberdeen went off the rails after Jocky Scott left as his co-manager.

So should we celebrate 4th place like Arsenal used to? Will it get us a Champions League place?

[James Stephen]

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I’ve seen very few folk ever deny we’re in a better position than when he joined. It’s just that, quite a number of people, don’t particularly enjoy what they’ve seen from his team (that’s been quite consistent even when we were in better form results wise).

As for whether you think his appointment was underwhelming, that’s entirely down to opinion. His appointment didn’t excite me at all. I’m still not particularly excited by him or his team. I also hope he wins the League Cup and prove me wrong.

I appreciate that, and the current team arent brilliant to watch, especially at home.

What they are though, is (last two games excepted!) well structured, well coached and with good players in key positions.

The idea that every Hibs team has to be entertaining is not realistic, and has never been the case.

I want a team to win, do well consistently in league and have a stab at the cups. Thats exactly what Ross has them doing.

Defensive solidity is what consistency is founded upon. People complain about typical Hibs, then moan when a manager tries to make them not typical Hibs, and has largely succeded so far.

Now, if Hibs got to the stage Aberdeen are at, where consistent results in league had been achieved, then id agree Hibs should be looking for more.

But until such times as we are all bored by constant 4th and 3rd place finishes, im happy to win with a minimum of fuss.

Some Hibs fans are basically trying to do exactly what some Hearts fans did when they took the huff with Neilson for losing a cup tie against Hibs, and chased him out when they were 2nd or 3rd in the league. That hasnt worked out well for them.

[James Stephen]

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4th is the minimum though. Hughes wss fired after it. Ambition / expectation has been watered down from the club so much since relegation in 98 along with the collapse of the Sky deal in early 00s that the club never really allude to it in relation to the size of Hibs within Scottish Football. Now the fans think 4th is some sort of achievement. Aberdeen fired Alex Smith after losing the league to Rangers on the last day of the season in 1991.

How did that work out for Aberdeen?

You might think 4th should be the minimum, but it is literally and demonstrably not.

[James Stephen]

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Nonsense, Hughes was fired in October of the following season after a dreadful run of results....


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And his replacement wasnt exactly an upgrade

*shudders*

[HibeeHibernian4]

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Some Hibs fans are basically trying to do exactly what some Hearts fans did when they took the huff with Neilson for losing a cup tie against Hibs, and chased him out when they were 2nd or 3rd in the league. That hasnt worked out well for them.

That's an excellent (and worrying) point.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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I know there isn’t a direct correlation between finances and league success but probably worth remembering that for the majority of all those seasons there’s been 4 teams spending more than us, and by rights should have a better team. This season there’s only 3 so 4th place is the minimum where we should be this season. There’s nobody below us that I’m thinking we are doing well to be above.

Okay that's a fair point so I'll be charitable and extend it to top 5 finishes. Guess what? Only five more of them. So only 11 out of the last 40 years that we've reached "minimum expectations" in the league (and half of them fall below the criteria that some are setting!). Maybe people need to understand that Hibs minimum expectations are clearly top 6 and extended cup runs, but even then we're maddeningly inconsistent enough down the years for that to not be the case every season.

[James Stephen]

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It’s obviously not the minimum that has been achieved. But it’s the minimum expectation of what should be achieved (and the club themselves have been vocal about that over the last few years). That’s why managers have lost their job at Hibs with such regularity, for not achieving that as a minimum. Yogi and Lennon were all right whilst challenging for that type of position, as soon as the drop off came we moved on to the next guy.

I agree this year it should be the target. And if it is, its one Hibs are on track to achieve, and still with a chance to exceed.

Hence why the negativity feels way over the top.

[bingo70]

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How did that work out for Aberdeen?

You might think 4th should be the minimum, but it is literally and demonstrably not.

Who do you think Hibs could finish behind this season that would make 5th place acceptable?

Other than the old firm there’s Aberdeen, who are better positioned than us to finish 3rd. Anything below 4th this season would be shocking, regardless of what’s happened in the past.

[bigwheel]

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And his replacement wasnt exactly an upgrade

*shudders*

You’re so right...between Hughes and Stubbs we had a run of managers that can make nightmares seem fun...


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[Allez Hibs]

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Some Hibs fans are basically trying to do exactly what some Hearts fans did when they took the huff with Neilson for losing a cup tie against Hibs, and chased him out when they were 2nd or 3rd in the league. That hasnt worked out well for them.

Hibs haven't finished 4th yet this season though. Could be a scramble to finish in the top 6 like last season.

Neilson had finished 3rd with Hearts the first season after they were promoted?