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Saw something on TV about people who were deemed “high risk”, never received letters
I know of quite a few family members, and my mums neighbours who should possibly have received them, but never got one
Anyone in the same boat, or does anyone know someone, who got a letter?
Were the letters not an England only policy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
Edit - Just checked and it's UK wide but administered by the respective governments.
I actually thought he had died when I heard the way that twat Morgan was droning on about things this morning. It's all very OTT. Yes, he's ill. So are lots of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
There are more Etonians ready to fill the gap while he recovers.
Were they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
How were the Scottish people getting contacted?
I've edited my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
Seems it is a UK wide initiative but enacted by each of the respective governments.
I’m not his biggest fan but he has raised a lot of valid points during this crisis.. I also liked the gesture he made to the nurses regarding parking fines.. I’m a mixed bag about him in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by EI255
I know two people who have not yet received one when they clearly should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
People in Scotland were being sent letters and texts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
I posted earlier in the thread that I have a friend that lives in Rome. She is a key worker so has still been working throughout.
She posted a couple of pictures on Instagram today of Battistini metro station and it was rammed, she said it has been getting gradually busier for a few days now as are the streets. The 1st week of the lockdown she had a whole carriage to herself, today she said she couldn't even count how many were on board as it was so busy. Also posted pictures of a perfume shop that had opened and people queuing to get in. She seems to think the lockdown is about to break in Rome as people are blatantly flouting it and the Police are struggling to/not even trying to control things.
Given things seem to be slowly improving in Italy it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I wish to god that were true but I really really have my doubts it will pan out like thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibby Bairn
Hope they have not asked for the Government subsidy for furloughed workers as they are clearly working. Crazy the risk they are taking and a shocking example to set for fans who might be going stir crazyQuote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
Can anyone explain how Japan seem to have got this so spectacularly wrong when you compare them to near neighbours South Korea?
They have now declared a state of emergency but some regions are sending children back to school, there are minimal social distancing restrictions in place and still no plan to order people to stay home and they have no widespread testing of note.
It seems an anomaly for that part of the world. Could it have been an attempt to put up a front of normality to try to influence the IOC?
They aren’t. Cormack said at the weekend, that their lawyers said advised against furloughing the playersQuote:
Originally Posted by wookie70
Poor show though, and sets the wrong example
'They added that the players followed guidelines regarding social distancing and that police gave them advice about spreading out further across the park.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
That is just bollocks from Aberdeen. The 'guidelines' about social distancing clearly say you shouldn't meet with people from outwith your own household. Unless these players all live together that is just a nonsense response. Why can't people just admit mistakes rather than offering half baked excuses?
Japan have 92 deaths with a population of roughly twice the UK and their first C19 death a month before the UK. 7 died of C19 in japan yesterday so they look like they will be taking no chances compared to the way we have approached it. The UK government have been far more Kamikaze than their Japanese opposite numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
We have a cabinet formed almost entirely of people whose reason for being there is they toed one line and either were, or became pro brexit. It's debatable if they are actually capable of bringing about anything other than a no deal Brexit, and even more unlikely that they have the flexibility to deal with much else, a couple of months ago it felt like it was their only priority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/japan-poised-to-declare-state-of-emergency-over-coronavirusQuote:
Originally Posted by wookie70
This suggests they aren't far away from a full blown crisis albeit it's been a slow burner. I read another article last night, which I now can't find, that suggests the ICU in one Tokyo hospital is already at capacity.
Seems the plan thus far has been to rely on their cultural social compliance more than anything.
I'm quite surprised to hear this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Purely from memory (and I haven't seen a graph for a while) South Korea were a far outlier with the "flatness of their curve" but at that point Japan weren't a million miles from it. Scotland itself seemed to be, whilst not as "good" as South Korea, one of the better countries at that end of the graphic along with Japan (certainly compared to how the graph looked early on for Italy, Spain, USA etc).
My partner has been to Japan and she has experienced Tokyo rush hour - where the maximum number of people possible are squeezed through the doors of train carriages using poles to cram them in. Looking also at the likes of London, it appears that this virus spreads rapidly in densely populated urban areas that rely on the transit of people in such a way.
Perhaps they value citizens more than the UK govt does. I can't imagine their testing regime will be as shambolic as ours and we currently have 27 times more case per capita than they do. If they think it is an emergency then what is it here. If the UK had their numbers we would rightly be heralding how well the Govt and citizens had acted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
A member of my family received one. We got it at the end of March.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
8 pages long with many forms of information we can go to for help. Medications, Food, General support with daily living, and Financial help if needed.
In the letter, the annex has a list of people on the very high risk category.
1. Solid organ transplant recipients
2. People with specific cancers.
a) People with cancer who are undergoing active chemotherapy or radical radiotherapy for lung cancer.
b) People with cancers of the blood or bone marrow such as leukaemia, lymphoma, or myeloma who are at any stage of treatment.
c) People having immunotherapy or other continuing antibody treatments for cancer.
d) People having other targeted cancer treatments which can affect the immune system, such as protein kinase inhibitors or PARP inhibitors.
e) People who have had bone arrow or stem cell transplants in the last 6 months, or who are still taking immunosuppression drugs.
3. People with severe respiratory conditions including all cystic fibrosis , severe asthma and severe COPD.
4. People with rare diseases and inborn errors of metabolism that significantly increase the risk of infection (such as SCID ,homozygous sickle cell)
5. People on immunosuppression therapies sufficient to significantly increase risk of infection
6. People who are pregnant with significant heart disease, congenital or acquired.
Along with Gove, Jenrick and most of the rest of the cabinet! I watched Gove getting a gentle grilling on BBC Breakfast this morning and he even seemed to struggle with that!Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
What did happen to the quality of our politicians in this country? :confused:
20pts deduction:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by wookie70
This article is a bit out of date but suggests there doesn't seem to be a coherent testing policy at all in Japan:Quote:
Originally Posted by wookie70
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/03/22/national/science-health/japan-coronavirus-testing/#.XoxML1PTVkw
I'm not trying to excuse the UK Govt and their response at all. It's been muddled, there has been flip flopping and it still seems a bit off the cuff. However if you remove South Korea and Germany from the equation (I'm discounting China as they have a level of control over the population others don't) then it's hard to argue many countries have handled this well. Looking at the figures it would appear Russia, Japan and Belgium are potentially at the beginnings of a 'late surge'.
They appear to be even worse with testing than we are. It makes you wonder why they have had so few deaths. I would imagine we will have a few surges after this one tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Michael Gove in self isolation now as one of his family members has shown symptoms.
There will be no one left in charge at this rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Every cloud and all that......Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Any idea what the High risk category consists of? The letter we received was, very high risk. Do they have different levels for different ailments?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Reading that list you put up then the categories deemed high risk appear to be different from England’s. Make that one and a half now.:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Main thing is that we all take responsibility for those family members we think are in more danger, I don’t suppose we really need a letter for that.
Everything was “fine” in Japan until they postponed the Olympics. Then it mysteriously became an emergency and cases started to rise.
Deaths up again in Spain, but new cases down.
I thought their might have been different levels of ailments for those needing to be contacted. Can't see anything on the SG website other that the letter we got.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Take care. Only 10 weeks to go. :greengrin
Possibly there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Aye, take care there. At least 10 weeks to go...... ****!!!!! :greengrin
At the time the letters were sent out, they did say some people who should might not get them and if you knew you were in one of the high risk categories and didn't get one, you should contact your GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
Having said that, one of my neighbours only got hers on Sunday, so I guess they're still coming?
Stick in Ronnie and Co, see you in the East sometimeQuote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
This is reported in England, but will no doubt be the same here:
"Coronavirus: 'High risk' list misses off thousands of people"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52123446
My missus is in the high risk category and didn't receive a letter, she did get a call from her doctor though telling her what to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
Has it been confirmed Hibs have furloughed players. Seemed strange the Aberdeen owner saying that though obviously only going on advice. Derek Mcinnes confirmed later in the show the players were using GPS and the club were able to monitor what they were doing. Maybe that was the reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
:flag::aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
I posted earlier that cultural differences would play a part in the fate of individual nations. I'm always wary of using stereotypes but it would seem there's an element of truth in the old cliches that Germans like to follow rules and the Italians think rules are there to be broken. This is being mirrored in the statistics we're seeing coming out of both countries. There are of course other factors involved in the infection and mortality rates but the more people have trust in and abide by the advice and regulations set out by their respective governments, the better the longterm effect in the fight against this virus will be. I guess culturally the UK lies somewhere in between Germany and Italy when it comes to civil obedience and expect the final statistics to also mirror this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
The UK's curve is as bad/slightly worse than Italy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
https://www.ft.com/__origami/service...ext&width=1260
In my view, Germany is doing better because it's sticking much closer to the WHO advice: test, quarantine, trace, test, quarantine, repeat ...
http://www.healthdata.org/news-relea...s-uk-early-its
This set of predictions looking grim for the UK. The included video points out that the predictor range is quite wide, but suggests that the peak for the UK will come in the 2nd/3rd week of April. The lack of beds and ICU beds looks especially worrying. Only Germany seems to have enough to cover the expected trajectory of demand.
Scottish figures again not showing a huge rise in hospital admissions or the number in ICU. Obviously the death toll looks grim, not unexpected given the change in reporting, but I think the hospital admissions one is the one to keep an eye on for now.
On Sunday 197 were in intensive care, today it's 199. On Sunday there was 1590 in hospital, today it's 1751. The admissions rise is big but it's consistent and that probably accounts for some cases, similar to the PM, that either started just after or predated the lockdown that haven't improved.
I'm not sure it could be described as a positive but it's steady rather than a huge surge.
Predicting Sweden to gave just over 4000 deaths by August. I would have expected that figure to be higher considering they are pretty much following the herd immunity model.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBremian
The number of new reported deaths is nowhere near what I’d have expected given it would be effectively three days total today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
New cases are not rising exponentially either.
It looks like they're moving towards lockdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Since90+2
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...th-toll-climbs
Even so, for a country of 10m, 4,000 deaths is pretty horrendous. Compare Portugal, also around 10m, with a predicted 470 deaths.
Has anyone done, or is it even possible to do, any longer term modelling for if a vaccine isn't found? Pretty much everything seems to hinge on us having a vaccine at some point around the 18 month mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBremian
If that doesn't happen and we see 2nd and 3rd waves would Sweden be in a better position at that point given they would have had a far higher number of cases and thus the hypothesised immunity? I'm not advocating herd immunity as a strategy but I assume that's the thinking behind it. In the bluntest possible terms; extreme pain in the short term for longer term gain.
Figures released by the ONS today show NHS England cumulative death figures are up to 80% higher than what UK government have reported thus far.
https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1247458186300456960?s=19
Even more alarming is the fact these figures still only include hospital admissions.
Was the herd immunity strategy not thought likely to cause 500,000 deaths in the UK. Hence why the government abandoned the Cummings plan and introduced the lockdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Think the whole exit strategy has to include specific mitigation to avoid waves 2 and 3, or else we can’t exit. Test trace isolate test trace isolate test trace isolate test trace isolate test trace isolate seems to be the way to do it.
As predicted, deaths in the UK around 850 for the last 24 hours.
Weekend figures were always going to have been an anomaly.
Starting to wonder how the hell we get out of this at all, without being right back at square one after a couple of months.Quote:
Originally Posted by bawheid
Just to be clear is he saying Covid 19 deaths in hospital are being ignored or that people in community are dying in large numbers from it but not being included in official figures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chorley Hibee
I think it will be a case of relaxing the measures for a period of time then back to “lockdown” again and so on till we get a vaccine.Quote:
Originally Posted by B.H.F.C
His words, and the statistics from the ONS, show a "persistent under-reporting of deaths" because of reporting delays.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
Also, these figures supplied by the ONS still only include hospital admissions.
Inclusion of deaths in the community would see an even greater figure.
Article about Germany and its relatively low numbers:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/w...eath-rate.html
Scotland are now using National Registers of Scotland numbers I think, assuming would include community deaths also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chorley Hibee
I believe this was meant to be the case Jim, but unsure if this has started yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
How can things ever return to normal? Any positive news at all?
I think the persistent under-reporting is a lag between deaths happening and deaths being reported. When we are passed the peak the same effect should result in an over-reporting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chorley Hibee
The only hospital deaths being recorded is a separate thing. Do we know how much that's likely to be under-reporting deaths? I wouldn't have thought many people wouldn't be admitted to hospital if they have it bad enough to die from it?
China just confirmed no deaths, remember they are around 3 months ahead of usQuote:
Originally Posted by Hiberniankb
Number of people in ICU in Scotland didn’t increase today. First time that has happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiberniankb
Brighter days ahead. Keep positive 👍
It appears according to the care home deaths that it’s quite common for the elderly and frail not to be hospitalised.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
I posted earlier that I found that surprising when 13 died in one home in a week without a single hospitalisation but that just seems to be the way of it.
Also appears to be common on the continent as well with France / Spain in particular showing up huge numbers of care home deaths.
The human race has survived many pandemics, at a time when medical care was not as advanced as today. We've survived dropping nuclear bombs on each other and other wars where we have killed each other in the millions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiberniankb
"Normal" after will probably be different to "normal" before, but one way or another a new "normal" will be established.
There is good news out there if you look in the right place - the worst affected countries who have had a horrific month are starting to get on top of their individual battles (even if we possibly have a little bit yet to go to get to that stage.)
And whilst the information coming out of that country always has to be taken with a pinch of salt, there is only good news coming out of China about how to deal with coronavirus. Time flies (which is not a good thing), we'll be there before we know it, and this will be a story to tell our grandkids - as long as we follow the social distancing and hand washing rules.
That really is the key metric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibby Bairn
When we start seeing that go down then we can maybe think that the first peak is over.
Quite how we avoid a second and third wave will then become the bigger focus.
Still a hell of a long way to go yet though, sadly.
As RyeSloan mentions, I think deaths in the community may be a lot higher than many of us would imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
I agree with your interpretation of the ONS figures and that, eventually, the figures should balance. The difficulty comes in ascertaining when the peak/plateau in cases/deaths is?
Using figures to lift restrictions etc, that don't correspond with the actual situation on the ground, could be catastrophic.
Out of interest, wonder how many people in the UK die every other day?
Sent from my LG-H840 using Tapatalk
Jeez, that's grim.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeSloan
There is possibly encouraging news from a German study:
https://www.thelocal.de/20200402/how...worst-hit-spot
Quote:
Initial surveys and investigations in homes in Heinsberg have already provided some indications of how the virus works.
Streeck, who is director of the Institute of Virology at Bonn University, said he was able to detect coronavirus by swabbing remote controls, washbasins, mobile phones, toilets or door handles.
However, it has not been possible to cultivate the virus in the laboratory on the basis of these swabs. "This means that we have detected the RNA (or ribonucleic acid, which carries the virus’s genetic information) of 'dead' viruses," Streeck said.
According to his previous research results, he believes "that a door handle can only be infectious if someone has actually coughed in their hand and then reached for it.
"After that, you have to reach for the door handle yourself and touch your face," he said. It is not yet possible to say how long the virus can remain on a door handle because not enough studies have been carried out.
Streeck added: "We were in a household where many highly infectious people lived, and yet we did not manage to detect a living virus from any surface."
My neighbours keep having there family up everyday who then sit outside the house drinking tea on those throw away chairs u used to take t in the park
At work I was told by someone who's sister works at Wishart hospital that they had 17 deaths between Thursday and Saturday and none of them count in official figures. They apparently have another 60 with covid 19, but no tests for patients or staff. It would appear they are using scans to determine lung capacity to try and find out who is infected. Whether all this is true or not I have no idea, but if it is then things may be decidedly worse than we think.
I know it’s difficult but try and not just accept every headline as “true”. Media are trained to sensationalise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiberniankb
An example.
“SCOTLAND DEATHS RISE BY 74”.
Read this and you get down. A new record number in one day. But the last two days have been 2 and 2 due to under-reporting at the weekend. So over the last 3 days the total has been 78. An average of 26 per day which shows a gradual easing off in the numbers. But you are unlikely to see that explained fully by BBC or Sky.
Today’s “RECORD HIGH” for England and U.K. will probably be skewed due to catch up also.
Thanks for that. Encouraging. This is the sort of thing I’d like to hear about being researched in the UK too.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
I have also heard a story from a Scottish island that there are people there who have tested negative when all the other - considerable - clinical evidence points to them having been positive. Seemingly all the testing had to go to Glasgow and the time taken to get a sample off to Glasgow for analysis would lead to much of the live virus dying off within the sample and so the test would be more likely to be a "false negative". As the testing method has changed I don't think this is so likely to be a problem going forward but it has been an issue in the very recent past.Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas
This pandemic must be a nightmare for the OCD amongst us who like black and white definitive results. There seems to be error upon error and consistent inconsistency. Whilst there will still undoubtedly be useful data generated, a great deal of discretion will need to be used regarding how we interpret our data.
My main concern right now is the state of PPE being provided to NHS staff and the cross infection protocols being followed, some of which are mind-bogglingly awful and frighteningly close to home.
I’m not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I did read something on Facebook earlier that made me think. The virus is now affecting almost every country in the world, how has it managed to spread everywhere else but hasn’t spread through the rest of China?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
Is it possible that their policy of rigorously testing, isolating (in fever hospitals, not at home) and tracing has worked pretty well? :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
3634 new infections 786 deaths In last 24 hours in the UK
Uk figures are for hospital deaths only. Scottish figures are hospital and community deaths. Not sure why the two govts are doing it differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Jonesy-
On the whole, SG and SNHS are handling this a lot better than rUK.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Chinese miracle? Hardly any spreading of disease outside Wuhan. Only 8 deaths in Beijing and 587 cases 😎Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
I think there has to be some caution about the information coming out of China. There is probably a balance to be had between the China = bad at one end of the spectrum and the enemy of my enemy mentality at the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
China is regularly suspected of misreporting data such as GDP, indeed there have been cases of local officials being 'removed' from their position for overstating figures to meet targets that China itself has acknowledged. With that in mind I think healthy scepticism of their figures should be encouraged; the same level of sceptism some are displaying towards the figures the UK and other Western countries would seem fair
From mid January onwards, when the Wuhan lockdown was put in place, I think China appears to have handled this well. I'm still sceptical of their reporting of figures though.
Could well be right, just seems strange that in such a densely populated country, they’ve managed to pretty much contain it to Wuhan, and the rest of the country seems fairly unaffected.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
This virologist believes that a Coronavirus vaccine will work and that we will not have as much trouble dealing with mutations as we do with flu strains:
https://www.city-journal.org/coronavirus-vaccine
Quote:
Rest assured: a vaccine is coming, it will work, and it will continue to work for as long as humanity must contend with Covid-19. Until then, we must maintain our social distancing so that our strained health-care system can keep up with the infections that we can’t seem to prevent.
Thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Really interesting and I wasn't aware of how fundamentally different a virus we were dealing with compared to the flu (in terms of the virus itself rather than the symptoms and mortality rate which are well documented).
It certainly reads like good news albeit good news for the medium to long term.
A country with a questionable attitude towards human rights will have extra tools at their disposal to contain the virus (!!) as well as enjoying an increased level of compliance from citizens towards their liberties being restricted.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
For all I'd expect them to be able to jump on the virus and defeat it quicker than us, I'm glad I don't live in China.
And importantly going forward, sort out these markets with a mixture of dead and live animalsQuote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
Just spoke to a mate in Liverpool who said the total disregard for social distancing he is witnessing is unbelievable, kids out playing together in the streets, parks full of people sunbathing and playing games in groups and people shopping and stopping talking to folk in the street like it’s a normal day. What the hell is wrong with people, what does it take to make folk comply, madness.
Apprently China banned wet markets after the SARS outbreak for a good few years but there is a minority of wealthy elite with a great influence who forced them back open again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
I'd wondered the same. As in, has there been significantly more people die in the first 3 months of this year than last year? Or, for want of a better way to word it (and apologies if this comes over insensitive) were a lot of these people of a level of poor health that they were going to die in the first 3 months of this year anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by EI255
Yes have wondered this myself, you hear of someone dying and wonder if they would have died anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by calumhibee1
The office of national statistics shows a weekly average over the last 5 years of 10573 deaths a week, that’s 1510 a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee
I would reckon once a few more weeks have passed and the data is available we will be looking at a significant rise in the average.
Don’t think it’s right to say people “who would’ve died anyway” because with no Sars-Cov-2 virus passing around most of those people wouldn’t be in hospital and/or dieing that day.
Utter disgrace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee
Do these morons think those of us who are doing the right thing and making various sacrifices to our daily lives are doing this for a laugh?
I read on the BBC a few days back that 600k die a year normally in the UK, that's a average of 1643 a day in simplistic terms if the BBC were correctQuote:
Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee
It’s impossible to tell without some sort of ‘other deaths’ stats...not something that’s commonly produced on a daily basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by calumhibee1
I suppose over time we’ll know the total number of deaths v the normal level and be able to work it out from there.
I think that’s how the standard flu deaths are worked out but even then you can get huge discrepancies and disagreements on methodology.
Even now we have Scotland starting to add in to the daily total deaths where C19 is ‘suspected’ as a a factor...so it’s clearly never going to be an exact science.
Tanks. Time for Mark Francois to take over from Raab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee
I've come to the conclusion there is no point in getting angry about this now. Some people are idiots and others aren't but are simply choosing to play the fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee
If everyone else takes responsibility for themselves then you will still get a majority complying.
Is it not the case that these ‘normal’ deaths are still happening, running parallel to Coronavirus deaths? Some may be linked to Coronavirus, but news of deaths from other causes is low key at present. I think we’ll find that that 600k figure will be much higher at the end of the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4
Who would have thought that following WHO advise and even being more cautious would work. Much better to advise everyone to shake hands and take it on the chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee