The Trans Rights Debate

Common sense has finally prevailed.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

This is a victory for common sense. The High Court ruling is saying that a woman is not a costume, it is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

This is a victory for common sense. The High Court ruling is saying that a woman is not a costume, it is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

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When did the High Court say this? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

When did the High Court say this? :dunno:

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They didn't mention costumes or stuff, just the biological bit

😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

They didn't mention costumes or stuff, just the biological bit

😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

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Oh, I didn't realise that the High Court and the Supreme Court are the same thing.

Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Oh, I didn't realise that the High Court and the Supreme Court are the same thing.

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When Diana left the Supremes, she got high.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

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Responding to my own post!

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/government-bans-gender-neutral-toilets-in-all-new-public-buildings#:~:text='Gender%20neutral%20toilets%20al low%20some,to%20use%20facilities%20with%20dignity' &text=We%20are%20alarmed%20by%20this,Homophobic%20 and%20Transphobic%20hate%20crime.

Banned by the UK government!!

This ruling means that biological sex is recognized in law as being real, if you watch next years UK woman's pool final, you won't see two men in the final competing against each other like what happened in this years woman's pool final, even if they have £5 Gender Recognition Certificates.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

This ruling means that biological sex is recognized in law as being real, if you watch next years UK woman's pool final, you won't see two men in the final competing against each other like what happened in this years woman's pool final, even if they have £5 Gender Recognition Certificates.

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Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

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You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

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Probably not in a useful way.

Separate women's leagues is probably useful in order to encourage participation by promoting a smaller pool of players who would otherwise get lost in the much larger pool of male players.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

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Isn’t height an advantage in snooker and pool?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Isn’t height an advantage in snooker and pool?


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I genuinely don't know.

I read an article with Deta Hedman and Lisa Ashton last week and they were very sympathetic to trans women but still stated their opposition to them playing in women's darts tournament. They argued that darts is still a physical sport in which musculoskeletal differences, perhaps those which are negligible in every day life, have a bearing. Maybe it's me that is coming at it from the wrong angle and maybe they are just trying to protect their own positions but I would argue they should be listened to over anyone with no direct involvement in the sport at a professional level stating it makes no difference.

Across a range of sports the data shows that up to the onset of puberty there is very little difference in performance levels between males and females, in sports like running it's absolutely minimal to non existent. At around that 11-14 age the disparity in performance grows massively. Women have to deal with a whole range of issues men don't; huge hormonal imbalances throughout the month, time spent unable to train at maximum performance because of their period etc etc all whilst men get elevated levels of testosterone which among other things fuels muscle and skeletal growth. Even in sports where that required physicality is smaller, say darts as opposed to boxing, it's still not really for me, you or any other men to decide whether it makes any difference or not.

That shouldn't be read as any kind of transphobic comment. There really isn't a simple answer but simply disregarding women's views on the perceived biological reality of the situation seems close to the worst way to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Responding to my own post!

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/...20hate%20crime.

Banned by the UK government!!

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Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

When Diana left the Supremes, she got high.

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Stress of only sharing top billing with the Prime Minister's wife. :agree:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

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Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be **** y....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be *****....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

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It's a point I've raised elsewhere as the only two trans people I know and am social with are both trans men.

I could be way off the mark here, but this whole conversation seems to be driven by women against trans-women in single sex spaces or where gender critical care is delivered.
I've not seen or heard any argument from cis men re trans-men in their single sex spaces.

Edited to add (as I have said in the past) the issue doesn't directly affect me (being male) but both my wife and 21yr old daughter agree that this conversation seems to have got weaponised fairly early on and it's far from being over.
What's the percentage of trans folk out there compared to the wider population. What's the percentage of trans folk that have had the reconstructive surgery that would make it nigh on impossible to tell one way or the other without a DNA test?
As someone said earlier, the biggest risk to women just now is still men, and statistically men they know rather than don't know.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be **** y....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

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A good point, assuming the trans man has gone under full gender reassignment surgery. The trans man I know has only undergone top surgery and hormone treatment.

Similarly a trans woman walking into the gents toilet while men are at urinals. What would be the reaction?

If this wasn’t about hate on trans people then I’m sure all those against will now be campaigning to make sure adequate facilities are made available for all people?[emoji849]


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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

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But organisations including feminist architecture and design collective Edit and grassroots group Architecture LGBT+ have hit back at the plans, describing them as a 'backwards step'. Edit called the move 'a distraction tactic by our government to fuel the culture war and transphobia'.

And Architecture LGBT+ said: 'Gender neutral spaces allow transgender and non-binary people, some of the most marginalised in society, the freedom to use facilities with dignity, without having to gender themselves

The changes will require the provision of separate single-sex toilet facilities for men and women and/or self-contained, private toilets. Mixed-sex shared facilities will be banned except when lack of space allows only a single toilet.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If this wasn’t about hate on trans people then I’m sure all those against will now be campaigning to make sure adequate facilities are made available for all people?[emoji849]

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:not worth Well said. Every individual should have the right to suitable toilet facilities, regardless of sex, gender, or identity.

Also, separate pool tournaments for the left-handed. Sinister b^stards. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Jim Herriot

:not worth Well said. Every individual should have the right to suitable toilet facilities, regardless of sex, gender, or identity.

Also, separate pool tournaments for the left-handed. Sinister b^stards. :greengrin

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It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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Just have two toilets without any urinals.

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Originally Posted by wookie70

Just have two toilets without any urinals.

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This would only make sense if we started using composting toilets everywhere. Think of all the extra water needed for a Jimmy Riddle.
We'd have longer queues too.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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It's maybe a British thing, but in Europe, many small hospitality businesses just have "a toilet". There's usually one lockable door then beyond that there's a sink, a urinal, a toilet and if you're lucky a baby changing area.
It appears to work.
For some reason we seem to get excited about how we toilet.
A good example was when when Bar 38 opened on George St in the early 2000's, the biggest talking point was the communal toilets and there was many an angry letter written about it in the Evening News. Turns out the only thing communal about them was the wash hand basin! Guys and gals still had their separate cubicles

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Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

It's maybe a British thing, but in Europe, many small hospitality businesses just have "a toilet". There's usually one lockable door then beyond that there's a sink, a urinal, a toilet and if you're lucky a baby changing area.
It appears to work.
For some reason we seem to get excited about how we toilet.
A good example was when when Bar 38 opened on George St in the early 2000's, the biggest talking point was the communal toilets and there was many an angry letter written about it in the Evening News. Turns out the only thing communal about them was the wash hand basin! Guys and gals still had their separate cubicles

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Despite having spent the vast majority of my adult life outside Anglo-Saxon/British origin culture, its approach to lavvies is far superior to most descended from continental Europe, especially when the temperature starts rising.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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But organisations including feminist architecture and design collective Edit and grassroots group Architecture LGBT+ have hit back at the plans, describing them as a 'backwards step'. Edit called the move 'a distraction tactic by our government to fuel the culture war and transphobia'.

And Architecture LGBT+ said: 'Gender neutral spaces allow transgender and non-binary people, some of the most marginalised in society, the freedom to use facilities with dignity, without having to gender themselves

The changes will require the provision of separate single-sex toilet facilities for men and women and/or self-contained, private toilets. Mixed-sex shared facilities will be banned except when lack of space allows only a single toilet.

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Ah right, it's the common washhand basin area the last government was going after, rather than the unisex toilet itself, yes? Does seem a bit culture-warry, not like them at all.

The reason trans men going into male toilets isn't an issue is biology. 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males. As males we have bear the burden for that, guilty or not and be kept away from single sex biological spaces. There is no threat increase to males with trans males being in their spaces.

I think most people would want as many rights as possible for trans females but not when it takes away a women's right, ie safe spaces. Protection against discrimination won't change.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

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That's not up for discussion in the mainstream media though. Editors and those with powerful voices on social media do not care to make as much noise about this, as they do about trans people.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The reason trans men going into male toilets isn't an issue is biology. 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males. As males we have bear the burden for that, guilty or not and be kept away from single sex biological spaces. There is no threat increase to males with trans males being in their spaces.

I think most people would want as many rights as possible for trans females but not when it takes away a women's right, ie safe spaces. Protection against discrimination won't change.

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So we’ll need to build more toilets and changing rooms.[emoji106]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

So we’ll need to build more toilets and changing rooms.[emoji106]


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Not by law now, so I doubt most will, perhaps big companies like banks and NHS but boozers who are toiling won't

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Not by law now, so I doubt most will, perhaps big companies like banks and NHS but boozers who are toiling won't

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Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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No. The supreme court has stipulated companies should determine spaces by biology. It also says it should have always been the case so I can see a number of court cases for unfair dismissal.

The supreme court takes priority over ECHR so it's likely parliament will make an amendment from what I'm reading

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Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

What's the percentage of trans folk out there compared to the wider population.

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Government Equalities Office says this:

How many trans people are there?
We don’t know. No robust data on the UK trans
population exists. We tentatively estimate that there are
approximately 200,000-500,000 trans people in the UK.
The Office for National Statistics is researching whether
and how to develop a population estimate.

So less than 1%, but maybe not that much less.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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The whole case was pretty much also to determine what the equalities act means by sex. Scot gov said it was chosen gender the court said this was to exhibit “incoherence and absurdity”. The court said the equalities act should only refer to biological sex and it should be protected in places where females change, have sanitary provisions and living in the same premises or there is physical contact.

It's hilarious that Sarwar is saying he always said there should be female only spaces, the same Sarwar that whipped the GRA vote and demoted two front benchers that were against. Hopefully it costs him his jotters

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

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This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

:dunno:

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

:dunno:

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It effects them as before many lesbian clubs and support groups for example were forced to include trans females they now don't. Some trans activists went as far as saying lesbians who wouldn't be a partner of a trans female were bigoted

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

:dunno:

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Maybe its because men who identify as women keep trying to join the lesbian dating pool, and they keep calling women who are attracted to women ie lesbians transphobes and cultural racists for not wanting anything to do with these deluded men.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Maybe its because men who identify as women keep trying to join the lesbian dating pool, and they keep calling women who are attracted to women ie lesbians transphobes and cultural racists for not wanting anything to do with these deluded men.

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Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It effects them as before many lesbian clubs and support groups for example were forced to include trans females they now don't. Some trans activists went as far as saying lesbians who wouldn't be a partner of a trans female were bigoted

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Thanks

:aok:

How many women would have been threatened by this transgender girl using the same single sex spaces as them??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...r-67727324.amp

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-57853385.amp

The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

How many women would have been threatened by this transgender girl using the same single sex spaces as them??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...r-67727324.amp

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Using a murdered bairn to prove a point badly. The fact is though it isn't one particular trans woman it's the fact that it was a rule for anyone who is trans. As I said as long as 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males then women should have safe spaces. The fact that the vast vast majority of males and trans females aren't perverts doesn't take away our collective responsibility to give biological females their own space.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Using a murdered bairn to prove a point badly. The fact is though it isn't one particular trans woman it's the fact that it was a rule for anyone who is trans. As I said as long as 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males then women should have safe spaces. The fact that the vast vast majority of males and trans females aren't perverts doesn't take away our collective responsibility to give biological females their own space.

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So all trans people have to use the gents?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

So all trans people have to use the gents?


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Aye, and the male minority will just have to lump it the name of women's rights.








Note: that is very much tongue in cheek.

oh anas, what are yi like



https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...QQ&oe=68073C00

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

So all trans people have to use the gents?


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In reality, rather than as a point of law, when it comes to toileting would anyone know? They might suspect but it would be a pretty terrible person that demanded someone lowered their trousers to prove it.

Areas such as open changing rooms or certain occupations (I'm thinking the Rape Crisis Scotland debacle) might be more problematic but when it comes to women's toilets in which individual cubicles are the norm I can't imagine it being as big an issue in real life as it apparently is on social media.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-female.html

Women attracted to women face abuse for their preference.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

So all trans people have to use the gents?


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I doubt there is a law against it in particular just like I wouldn't get a criminal record if I went in a females used the toilet cubicle and left, but they should use the toilet of their biological sex. It's obviously a bigger issue than toilets. Some jobs that had female quotas for promotion let trans women be included, female only clubs and support can be on biology now, female only personal care, female sport, female hostels and centre's for abuse, female work changing rooms.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Using a murdered bairn to prove a point badly. The fact is though it isn't one particular trans woman it's the fact that it was a rule for anyone who is trans. As I said as long as 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males then women should have safe spaces. The fact that the vast vast majority of males and trans females aren't perverts doesn't take away our collective responsibility to give biological females their own space.

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Jo caulfield, lives in Leith said exactly the same thing on threads!!!!

Arianna gheay was no threat to anyone but was murdered because she was different! She was a trans girl.


Edit: predictive text!

BRIANNA!

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-female.html

Women attracted to women face abuse for their preference.

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Oh dear!! The daily mail is your go to for facts! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Jo caulfield, lives in Leith said exactly the same thing on threads!!!!

Arianna gheay was no threat to anyone but was murdered because she was different! She was a trans girl.


Edit: predictive text!

BRIANNA!

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Oh well if Jo Caulfield said. Her death was abhorrent and she was no threat to anyone, she isn't everyone though, there is zero correlation, its cheap. Me and you aren't a threat to women, that doesn't mean there aren't rapists in the world, we are grouped with them due to our biology. Women should have spaces safe from biological males not due to one individual but due to men as a sex. Gisele Pelicot shows that abhorrent men hide in plain sight in every walk of life, unfortunately every male is guilty until proven innocent when it comes to women

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Oh dear!! The daily mail is your go to for facts! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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Did you read the BBC article it had multiple lesbians and trans women saying it was an issue. Do I trust lesbians themselves or men who doubt it's true

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Oh dear!! The daily mail is your go to for facts! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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Virtually the exact same point is made here, that there are men who identify as women who think they can call women transphobes and bigots because they are not attracted to people who identify as women they are attracted to real women, ie they are lesbians. The trans movement has some real and nasty misogynists.

https://thelcommunity.com/best-lesbian-dating-app-2025/

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Virtually the exact same point is made here, that there are men who identify as women who think they can call women transphobes and bigots because they are not attracted to people who identify as women they are attracted to real women, ie they are lesbians. The trans movement has some real and nasty misogynists.

https://thelcommunity.com/best-lesbian-dating-app-2025/

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There has been some real spiteful glee on the other side the last couple of days as well.


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

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More evidence to add to the list. Why did you think it was so outrageous in the first place?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/c814cd90fa5a3a05

Just read that some lawyers are saying trans women will end up having to use disabled toilets if there aren’t designated toilets that they can use, eg mixed sex toilets.

Disabled people have enough problems trying to find toilets and ones that are free at the best of times.

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Originally Posted by oconnors_strip

Just read that some lawyers are saying trans women will end up having to use disabled toilets if there aren’t designated toilets that they can use, eg mixed sex toilets.

Disabled people have enough problems trying to find toilets and ones that are free at the best of times.

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Yep. There was a situation at a previous job I had where there was a trans-woman (I'm not sure whether they had the full surgery). There was a big argument about the toileting situation. Women didn't want this person using the female toilets. The person understandably didn't want to use the male toilets. Management's solution was for them to use the disabled toilet. The folk who needed the disabled toilets then kicked off about that. I'm not sure how it resolved itself.

On the point someone made earlier about how there doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with trans people using male toilets, in addition to the points others have made, I'd add that it is probably way more common for women to use male toilets than the other way about so I think a lot of men will be used to non-biological males or otherwise using the male toilets. It isn't uncommon at a gig or a pub for a woman to use the male toilet to avoid queues.

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Originally Posted by overdrive

Yep. There was a situation at a previous job I had where there was a trans-woman (I'm not sure whether they had the full surgery). There was a big argument about the toileting situation. Women didn't want this person using the female toilets. The person understandably didn't want to use the male toilets. Management's solution was for them to use the disabled toilet. The folk who needed the disabled toilets then kicked off about that. I'm not sure how it resolved itself.

On the point someone made earlier about how there doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with trans people using male toilets, in addition to the points others have made, I'd add that it is probably way more common for women to use male toilets than the other way about so I think a lot of men will be used to non-biological males or otherwise using the male toilets. It isn't uncommon at a gig or a pub for a woman to use the male toilet to avoid queues.

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Totally unrelated to the debate but I remember years ago at T in The Park a woman of a more mature vintage marching in to the frankly disgusting male toilet area, stating she was desperate and then proceeding to squat over the biohazard troughs they had the cheek to call urinals:faf:

I'm really not sure about the whole toilet, changing situation etc. A few years back I ran in a running event. The organisers stated that everyone could run under their chosen gender rather than biological sex which was no issue for me as I was unlikely to be threatening the winning enclosure in either the male or female category. They also stated there would be no segregated changing, toilet or showering facilities and everything would be gender neutral. I did find that problematic. The run was 50+ miles, at the end of it I had some pretty grim bleeding and chafing in my groin region. I just wanted to shower, put on some Sudocrem and get out of there. The issue was when I arrived in the changing rooms and shower area there was a group of about 6 women all standing and it was just an awkward 'what the **** do we do' moment. The showers had pretty flimsy half length curtains covering them and offered no real privacy and while I'm no prude I didn't feel at all comfortable showering, drying myself then smearing cream all over myself in front of a group of women; as much out of respect for not wanting to make them feel uncomfortable as anything else. In the end I decided to ride a bus for 40 minutes in pain and minging and shower in my B&B. I'm not opposed to gender neutral spaces in themselves but not at the expense of providing single sex spaces for those who want/need them. Several people gave constructive feedback to the organisers on their social media platform and were met with the invariable shrieks of 'transphobe' (which was bizarre because I don't think a single person mentioned trans people). The organisers doubled down and said they would not be changing to accommodate 'bigots'. It may be a coincidence but a race that used to go to a ballot to allocate the 1000 places now fails to attract a full field every year.

I'm not even convinced providing a 3rd option really resolves the issue on a moral or practical level. I've seen trans women on social media state that nothing will stop them using women's facilities, on the flip side I can't imagine entering a male toilet would be a pleasant experience for them yet mandating a 3rd option seems to be othering people which doesn't sit well with me either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Totally unrelated to the debate but I remember years ago at T in The Park a woman of a more mature vintage marching in to the frankly disgusting male toilet area, stating she was desperate and then proceeding to squat over the biohazard troughs they had the cheek to call urinals:faf:

I'm really not sure about the whole toilet, changing situation etc. A few years back I ran in a running event. The organisers stated that everyone could run under their chosen gender rather than biological sex which was no issue for me as I was unlikely to be threatening the winning enclosure in either the male or female category. They also stated there would be no segregated changing, toilet or showering facilities and everything would be gender neutral. I did find that problematic. The run was 50+ miles, at the end of it I had some pretty grim bleeding and chafing in my groin region. I just wanted to shower, put on some Sudocrem and get out of there. The issue was when I arrived in the changing rooms and shower area there was a group of about 6 women all standing and it was just an awkward 'what the **** do we do' moment. The showers had pretty flimsy half length curtains covering them and offered no real privacy and while I'm no prude I didn't feel at all comfortable showering, drying myself then smearing cream all over myself in front of a group of women; as much out of respect for not wanting to make them feel uncomfortable as anything else. In the end I decided to ride a bus for 40 minutes in pain and minging and shower in my B&B. I'm not opposed to gender neutral spaces in themselves but not at the expense of providing single sex spaces for those who want/need them. Several people gave constructive feedback to the organisers on their social media platform and were met with the invariable shrieks of 'transphobe' (which was bizarre because I don't think a single person mentioned trans people). The organisers doubled down and said they would not be changing to accommodate 'bigots'. It may be a coincidence but a race that used to go to a ballot to allocate the 1000 places now fails to attract a full field every year.

I'm not even convinced providing a 3rd option really resolves the issue on a moral or practical level. I've seen trans women on social media state that nothing will stop them using women's facilities, on the flip side I can't imagine entering a male toilet would be a pleasant experience for them yet mandating a 3rd option seems to be othering people which doesn't sit well with me either.

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I guess everyone is different. I was on an exercise in Denmark and found myself on a supply run to a Danish army camp. I thought I'd take advantage of their shower facilities whilst I was there and they were mixed sex with no segregation, there were a few women in there but neither they nor I batted an eyelid.

It's the same in saunas here, most are mixed sex and wearing bathing costumes is frowned upon. I've always found the British attitude to nudity strange and prude if I'm being honest.

As for the trans rights debate, I've no influence on it whatsoever, but I'll continue to treat everyone with respect, regardless of what they have or don't have between their legs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Totally unrelated to the debate but I remember years ago at T in The Park a woman of a more mature vintage marching in to the frankly disgusting male toilet area, stating she was desperate and then proceeding to squat over the biohazard troughs they had the cheek to call urinals:faf:

I'm really not sure about the whole toilet, changing situation etc. A few years back I ran in a running event. The organisers stated that everyone could run under their chosen gender rather than biological sex which was no issue for me as I was unlikely to be threatening the winning enclosure in either the male or female category. They also stated there would be no segregated changing, toilet or showering facilities and everything would be gender neutral. I did find that problematic. The run was 50+ miles, at the end of it I had some pretty grim bleeding and chafing in my groin region. I just wanted to shower, put on some Sudocrem and get out of there. The issue was when I arrived in the changing rooms and shower area there was a group of about 6 women all standing and it was just an awkward 'what the **** do we do' moment. The showers had pretty flimsy half length curtains covering them and offered no real privacy and while I'm no prude I didn't feel at all comfortable showering, drying myself then smearing cream all over myself in front of a group of women; as much out of respect for not wanting to make them feel uncomfortable as anything else. In the end I decided to ride a bus for 40 minutes in pain and minging and shower in my B&B. I'm not opposed to gender neutral spaces in themselves but not at the expense of providing single sex spaces for those who want/need them. Several people gave constructive feedback to the organisers on their social media platform and were met with the invariable shrieks of 'transphobe' (which was bizarre because I don't think a single person mentioned trans people). The organisers doubled down and said they would not be changing to accommodate 'bigots'. It may be a coincidence but a race that used to go to a ballot to allocate the 1000 places now fails to attract a full field every year.

I'm not even convinced providing a 3rd option really resolves the issue on a moral or practical level. I've seen trans women on social media state that nothing will stop them using women's facilities, on the flip side I can't imagine entering a male toilet would be a pleasant experience for them yet mandating a 3rd option seems to be othering people which doesn't sit well with me either.

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Your post making me nostalgic for the days when toilet provision in sport wasn't an issue. At the old Hampden people just peed on the ash below their feet, and the person in front of them. Sell-out crowds too.

The company I work for are based in Norton Park, opposite the West Stand, and the toilets are gender neutral, everyone seems fine with that and not heard anyone complaining.

I struggle why this issue is being made so complex, if someone needs to change sex, it should be their right and they should be supported throughout their journey. Once the journey is complete their documentation should read what their new sex is. However until it is complete, and this imho is a safeguard to those who would abuse the system for their own wants, ie Isla Bryson. Then they will have to continue as that sex until completion of their transformation.

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

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I have no idea what your actually asking?

You should probably read an article on the Supreme Court ruling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

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Does the Supreme Court ruling not actually mean the opposite, as it has been ruled that 'Female' in the context of the 2010 Equalities Act, now means a 'biological Female'?

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Originally Posted by Green Reaper

Does the Supreme Court ruling not actually mean the opposite, as it has been ruled that 'Female' in the context of the 2010 Equalities Act, now means a 'biological Female'?

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Yeah but a trans man now must use the female toilets according to the supreme court. So the question is, what is there to stop a man claiming to be a trans man to access female toilets?

[QUOTE=Moulin Yarns;7939927]Yeah but a trans man now must use the female toilets according to the supreme court. So the question is, what is there to stop a man claiming to be a trans man to access female toilets?[/QUOTE]

The same as there currently is to prevent CIS-men accessing female toilets.

BerwickHibby will clarify, but that's probably a breach of the peace, so the police can be called.

Coomon sense will prevail, eventually.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

I struggle why this issue is being made so complex, if someone needs to change sex, it should be their right and they should be supported throughout their journey. Once the journey is complete their documentation should read what their new sex is. However until it is complete, and this imho is a safeguard to those who would abuse the system for their own wants, ie Isla Bryson. Then they will have to continue as that sex until completion of their transformation.

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You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

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More eloquently explained than my post, but the point remains, once a person has surgery and aligned physically then they are imho that gender/sex and should be treated so. Up until then imho they should remain as their given birth sex to stop the charlatans abusing the system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

More eloquently explained than my post, but the point remains, once a person has surgery and aligned physically then they are imho that gender/sex and should be treated so. Up until then imho they should remain as their given birth sex to stop the charlatans abusing the system.

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I think the vast majority will agree and we Will likely see play out what you describe. This issue only ended up in court this week as the Scottish Government had changed to law to say a trans woman would count towards a gender balanced public sector board. So we could have had the crazy situation of having a public board of 6 people and all born male and it meeting the requirement of being gender balanced, none of them ever having had a period, a pregnancy or having gone through the menopause or any woman only experiences. It's an extreme example I know but that was the reality of the change they wanted to introduce. It's also hopefully puts an end to self ID in the public sector and fully intact males like Dr Upton of NHS Fife being empowered to use the female only spaces and woman being called transphobic just for sticking up for their rights by law.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

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Agree with most of that, particularly the bit in bold.

My fear (echoed by colleagues in the community and allied groups) is that this week's judgement may further marginalise an already marginalised group. That may be an unintended consequence, but there also those who might use it deliberately.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Agree with most of that, particularly the bit in bold.

My fear (echoed by colleagues in the community and allied groups) is that this week's judgement may further marginalise an already marginalised group. That may be an unintended consequence, but there also those who might use it deliberately.

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This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 500miles

This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

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Yeah, the judge was clear on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 500miles

This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

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People have wanted to say this side means this or that. I've found the extremes are nuts. The Maggie Chapmans 5 year olds should be OK to medically transition and trans women are literally women, the other side saying grow up son your a man in a dress. I think the vast majority now say we would like trans and females to get as many freedoms as possible until one freedom affects another group

I'm i a pub right now with 2 trannys who both look like bernard manning and les dawson, both are still using the ladies toilets and nobody is complaining.

For 99.9% of the country nothing will change and we wont notice any difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

I'm i a pub right now with 2 trannys who both look like bernard manning and les dawson, both are still using the ladies toilets and nobody is complaining.

For 99.9% of the country nothing will change and we wont notice any difference.

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I seem to recall meeting one of your tranny mates in Tenerife. Or maybe I'm getting my dressers crossed?

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I seem to recall meeting one of your tranny mates in Tenerife. Or maybe I'm getting my dressers crossed?

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That might have been BoltonHibs :greengrin, dont know any in Tenerife, but Blackpool has more than its fair share. :greengrin

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-civil-servant



Someone has ****ed up! #justsaying

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

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Men also don’t get pregnant and are typically not the parent who puts career on the back burner to look after children - so take away the physical aspect and you still have a significant advantage as an man in terms of practice hours and playing time, not to mention that in heavily male dominated sports like darts and snooker, you’re far more likely to have started younger than a female in the same sport.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Men also don’t get pregnant and are typically not the parent who puts career on the back burner to look after children - so take away the physical aspect and you still have a significant advantage as an man in terms of practice hours and playing time, not to mention that in heavily male dominated sports like darts and snooker, you’re far more likely to have started younger than a female in the same sport.

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Totally, The UK Ultimate Pool Woman's final wouldn't have grabbed the headlines, except for one curious detail, this year there were no women in the final. It was played between two men, who no doubt had their £5 Gender Recognition Certificates but this doesn't make them women, former Olympic swimmer Sharon Davis described it as 'bloody ridiculous and grossly wrong in every way.

While it's true that, in pool, the difference between men and women might not be as pronounced as other, more physically demanding sports, men do still have biological advantages. These differences though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists are obvious to anyone with eyes. Males are generally taller have longer reach making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed. This to me is what the trans end game looks like, Men dominating Woman's sports, with no one willing to admit that biological sex matters

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

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What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-57853385.amp

The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women

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Looks an absolute non issue to me. If you don’t want to **** someone, don’t **** them.

I’m sure the opposite is more true. Bloke takes a trans woman home thinking they are a biological female. Finds out later on that night that they have a *****. Decides it’s not for him and he goes home.

No drama.

J

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

In reality, rather than as a point of law, when it comes to toileting would anyone know? They might suspect but it would be a pretty terrible person that demanded someone lowered their trousers to prove it.

Areas such as open changing rooms or certain occupations (I'm thinking the Rape Crisis Scotland debacle) might be more problematic but when it comes to women's toilets in which individual cubicles are the norm I can't imagine it being as big an issue in real life as it apparently is on social media.

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This. We all need to bring some reality and perspective to the conversation. Not 1 in a million made up hysteria.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

This. We all need to bring some reality and perspective to the conversation. Not 1 in a million made up hysteria.

J

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I think in time toilets will just be one per room with cubicles with shared wash facilities done away with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

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Correct. And if I was a militant Trans Activist that’s exactly what I’d do.

Full beard, tats, top surgery. Walk into a woman’s changing room get naked. Then stick my board shorts on and walk to the pool.

If it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander.

Like I’ve said, most Trans people just want to get on with their lives having been dealt the cards of being born in the wrong body. It must be horrible to not feel and be your self.

J

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I think in time toilets will just be one per room with cubicles with shared wash facilities done away with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That seems the obvious answer.

Changing rooms and tape crisis centers seem to be the massive thorn in the sides of sensible debate.

You could have (like I’ve used in many swimming pools), multiple cubicles that people just go into. When I shower there I just keep my trunks on.

I’m sure that will be the norm. Not sure how it would work in gyms, guess you could have shower cubicles too.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

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Don't you think a young male who will have male snooker and pool role models to look up to and access to what is effectively a very male dominated environment has an advantage? A young male will have access to male coaches as well while the young female will likely have access to no female coaches and has no role models. It's a very male dominated sport so how do you think a woman would feel if she worked her way up to the top in the women's category only to find a man has either taken her space in a tournament so she can't compete at all or beaten her to a title etc. in a woman only category?

Should she just get on with it?

You don't think there is an element some men basically saying tough luck women, what you feel and believe here doesn't matter just accept men can play in your sport and the woman only category and just get on with it?

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Not sure how it would work in gyms, guess you could have shower cubicles too.

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Lpt of years ago now but the Commie Pool used to have shower cubicles in the male changing rooms. I don't think there are shower cubicles now, though I might have missed them.

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

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That's a ridiculous comparison. Periods is a much under valued issue in sports and working life. Many females are incapacitated one week in four. Add in pregnancy can take an enormous toll on a body. It isn't just height females muscle mass and bone density is completely different as is stamina, hence less sets in tennis.

It's hard for females to get the opportunities in sports that males get, taking away more and saying get on with it is terrible misogyny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

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So the trans community, both men and women, aren't allowed a voice. Take a look at the huge protests across the whole of the UK against the court ruling!

Speaking to LBC, Melanie Field, an independent adviser on equality and human rights, who oversaw the Equality Act's drafting and passage through Westminster in 2010, has called for calm but warned this recent decision could be at odds with the act’s original goals.

She told LBC’s Paul Brand the legislation was meant to give transgender people with gender recognition certificates (GRCs) the same legal status as so-called “biological” men or women.

She said it was the “very clear” goal of the act that trans women with GRCs would be seen as women in the eyes of the law.

This will no longer be the case following the Supreme Court ruling.

Ms Field said: “So we're working in the context of that government policy and parliamentary intent that the gender recognition certificate should have the effect of changing a person's sex under sex discrimination law.

So that was the basis on which we drafted the Equality Act 2010. And there are a number of exceptions in there that recognise the importance of biological sex in the provision of, for example, single sex services.

“And we were very careful to draft those provisions in a way that they would enable trans people to be treated differently in relation to those services, regardless of whether or not they had a gender recognition certificate.

“So my worry is that this Supreme Court judgement, which is sought to provide Clarity in a very sort of noisy and confused context, by applying a different interpretation to those provisions may mean that the act doesn't work in the way that was intended.”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

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I think we are heading to everyone having their own space.
As for sports, trans women should not be competing with biological women. I’m supportive of every other right but this is both a safety and fairness issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It seems (on here at least) the general consensus is trans-women shouldn't compete with biological women in any sport.
I wonder what the view is of trans-men competing with biological women in sport is?

I do start to think a lot of onlookers/commentators (myself included) are getting hung up on very small points that will absolutely matter to some, but are not an issue for the wider trans or CIS community.
If we're looking at 0.5% of the population identifying as trans (last census), how many of that 0.5% are playing any sport at a level where being biologically male or female is gaining a significant advantage. At a guess, maybe 0.005%?
As mentioned before, I know two trans-guys (one quite closely), he's to all intents & purposes a regular guy and I'd doubt the vast majority of the public could identify him as female if they didn't know, but lately he's become quite introverted and it's because of the pile-on he receives on social media (mainly) from folk (again, maybe people like me) who get involved on the online commentary focusing on the points that affect a relative tiny percentage of trans persons and the wider general public.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

It seems (on here at least) the general consensus is trans-women shouldn't compete with biological women in any sport.
I wonder what the view is of trans-men competing with biological women in sport is?

I do start to think a lot of onlookers/commentators (myself included) are getting hung up on very small points that will absolutely matter to some, but are not an issue for the wider trans or CIS community.

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Trans men can't medically transition and compete in women's sport because they'd be caught up in banned substances rules. Trans men could probably have provisions made in the mens/ open category.

As to wider arguements, legislating in spite of 99% people's measurable and definable reality to accommodate a tiny minority belief system is absolutely mental.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

to accommodate a tiny minority belief system is absolutely mental.

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Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So the trans community, both men and women, aren't allowed a voice. Take a look at the huge protests across the whole of the UK against the court ruling!

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They should get a voice and have every right they can unless that takes away from someone else's right, ie single sex situations. I remember previously you said trans women should be able to compete in female sports, even defending a trans mma fighter. I think we'll look back in years to come how ridiculous it was.