The Trans Rights Debate

[147lothian]

So a 6'1 man feels so entitled that he reject's a gender neutral changing area, obviously with no consideration of how he is going to make others feel and tells a 5'4 women who is in a female only safe space that she is a bigot and transphobe because she objects to a man getting changed in a female only area. This is misogyny in drag.

[CropleyWasGod]

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So a 6'1 man feels so entitled that he reject's a gender neutral changing area, obviously with no consideration of how he is going to make others feel and tells a 5'4 women who is in a female only safe space that she is a bigot and transphobe because she objects to a man getting changed in a female only area. This is misogyny in drag.

What Velvet Underground album is that on?

[Bishop Hibee]

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

[Andy Bee]

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From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

Utter BS, what does he know now that he didn't before or could of found out before, he voted for it along with his partner in crime Baillie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swNYRF8rnko

[CropleyWasGod]

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From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

Should he be commenting on an ongoing case?

Seems a bit disrespectful of the process, if not against some ethical rules, and lays him open to accusations of trying to influence the case.

[jamie_1875]

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Utter BS, what does he know now that he didn't before or could of found out before, he voted for it along with his partner in crime Baillie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swNYRF8rnko

Yes and no, I think at the time the Scottish Government did say that it would have no impact on the equalities act so you either believed them at the time or didn't. NHS Fife has been empowered though to basically ignore that and come up with their own policy, their policy is anyone that says they are a woman is a woman and that's it. Kinda of like what GRA was going to do before it was stopped. But I agree there were many many people who said hang on this is a big issue and they were largely ignored or dismissed as bigots and Sarwar and Baillie should have listened more and insisted on stronger amendments. And Labour MSPs where whipped to support it, another mistake at the time.

Although in this case NHS Fife just did what they wanted anyway and ignored the actual law.

[jamie_1875]

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Should he be commenting on an ongoing case?

Seems a bit disrespectful of the process, if not against some ethical rules, and lays him open to accusations of trying to influence the case.

This was brought up in Parliament today, it's not "sub judice" which means you can talk about it as it's not like a criminal case where you could commit contempt etc.

It was brought up as a few attempts were made to debate it and ask questions on what the Scottish Governments stance was but the PO never picked any questions and the SNP/Greens voted down the request to get a statement on it.

[CropleyWasGod]

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This was brought up in Parliament today, it's not "sub judice" which means you can talk about it as it's not like a criminal case where you could commit contempt etc.

It was brought up as a few attempts were made to debate it and ask questions on what the Scottish Governments stance was but the PO never picked any questions and the SNP/Greens voted down the request to get a statement on it.

2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

[jamie_1875]

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2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

It's not a civil case, I think that's just nonsense from Hepburn. I don't see a issue with commenting by public figures seeing as it's such an important and fundamental issue, I would be concerned if our elected officials weren't commenting on it seeing the ramifications it may have.

[Sergio sledge]

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2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

I do agree there is a bit of game playing going on here, but to be fair I would also hope that a case that will be decided by a judge would not be influenced by statements by politicians in this country. The judge should be deciding it on the merits of the case alone and if they are swayed or influenced by public comment or sentiment then they shouldn't be in that position IMHO.

Also, I don't think that a ministerial statement on whether the NHS policy of allowing people to change in the room that aligns with the gender they identify with is legal or not has any bearing on the case to be honest. Isn't the case about whether the nurse has faced unlawful harassment and victimisation (being suspended, subject to disciplinary action and having her work patterns adjusted) because of her belief that biological sex is immutable, not about whether the policy itself is lawful?

[jamie_1875]

"The Equality and Human Rights Commission has today written to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and NHS Fife, regarding access to single-sex changing facilities for NHS staff.

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, Chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said:

“As Britain’s equality regulator, we promote and enforce compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

“Health bodies in Scotland, England and Wales must have an accurate understanding of the operation of the Equality Act as it relates to the provision of single-sex services and spaces.

“Today we reminded NHS Fife of their obligation to protect individuals from discrimination and harassment on the basis of protected characteristics, including sex, religion or belief and gender reassignment.

“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

“We also highlighted that the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive have an Approved Code of Practice and guidance that NHS Boards can refer to.

“This week media reported on NHS Scotland’s forthcoming Guide to Transitioning, which the Scottish Government confirmed has been shared with health boards in preparation for its implementation. It is important that this guide, and all guidance, policies and practices which rely on it, faithfully reflect and comply with the Equality Act 2010.

“We have asked to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s role in ensuring that NHS Scotland and other bodies meet their legal obligations under the Equality Act.”

Yes some people still think a nurse of 30 years is a transphobe for wanting the law to be upheld.

[Ozyhibby]

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From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

The amount of straight up lies that come from Sarwar’s lips would make him right at home in the MAGA movement in the states.


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[Moulin Yarns]

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"The Equality and Human Rights Commission has today written to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and NHS Fife, regarding access to single-sex changing facilities for NHS staff.

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, Chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said:

“As Britain’s equality regulator, we promote and enforce compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

“Health bodies in Scotland, England and Wales must have an accurate understanding of the operation of the Equality Act as it relates to the provision of single-sex services and spaces.

“Today we reminded NHS Fife of their obligation to protect individuals from discrimination and harassment on the basis of protected characteristics, including sex, religion or belief and gender reassignment.

“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

“We also highlighted that the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive have an Approved Code of Practice and guidance that NHS Boards can refer to.

“This week media reported on NHS Scotland’s forthcoming Guide to Transitioning, which the Scottish Government confirmed has been shared with health boards in preparation for its implementation. It is important that this guide, and all guidance, policies and practices which rely on it, faithfully reflect and comply with the Equality Act 2010.

“We have asked to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s role in ensuring that NHS Scotland and other bodies meet their legal obligations under the Equality Act.”

Yes some people still think a nurse of 30 years is a transphobe for wanting the law to be upheld.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

[jamie_1875]

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https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

I am struggling again to understand the point you are making in relation to this ongoing case. That article doesn't say Dr Upton can use the woman's changing room.

Would you call an 18 yr old female student nurse who didn't want to get changed next to a fully intact man a transphobe? I am guessing yes, but am I wrong?

[Moulin Yarns]

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I am struggling again to understand the point you are making in relation to this ongoing case. That article doesn't say Dr Upton can use the woman's changing room.

Would you call an 18 yr old female student nurse who didn't want to get changed next to a fully intact man a transphobe? I am guessing yes, but am I wrong?

That isn't an article but is the guidance on equality from the commission!!

[jamie_1875]

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That isn't an article but is the guidance on equality from the commission!!

So what has it got to do with the current case? Nowhere it says Dr Upton should be allowed into the woman's changing room does it?

But I see you ignored the question, you previously called the nurse a transphobe for not wanting to get changed next to Dr Upton, would you call an 18 yr old student nurse a transphobe if she similarly refused to get changed next to a fully intact male?

[Moulin Yarns]

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So what has it got to do with the current case? Nowhere it says Dr Upton should be allowed into the woman's changing room does it?

But I see you ignored the question, you previously called the nurse a transphobe for not wanting to get changed next to Dr Upton, would you call an 18 yr old student nurse a transphobe if she similarly refused to get changed next to a fully intact male?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/response-misinformation-about-single-sex-spaces-guidance?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fse arch%3Fkeys%3DSingle-sex%2Btransgender%2B


We are aware of online misinformation*about guidance on single-sex spaces. It is false to suggest that we are looking to bar trans people from accessing spaces, such as public toilets, without a Gender Recognition Certificate.


It is completely false to suggest that we are looking to bar*trans people from accessing spaces without a Gender Recognition Certificate. We are not aware of any document*produced by the EHRC*that would support this.

The Equality Act provisions on gender reassignment are not predicated on possession, or not, of a Gender Recognition Certificate.

[jamie_1875]

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https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/response-misinformation-about-single-sex-spaces-guidance?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fse arch%3Fkeys%3DSingle-sex%2Btransgender%2B


We are aware of online misinformation*about guidance on single-sex spaces. It is false to suggest that we are looking to bar trans people from accessing spaces, such as public toilets, without a Gender Recognition Certificate.


It is completely false to suggest that we are looking to bar*trans people from accessing spaces without a Gender Recognition Certificate. We are not aware of any document*produced by the EHRC*that would support this.

The Equality Act provisions on gender reassignment are not predicated on possession, or not, of a Gender Recognition Certificate.

I am really struggling what point you are making? Will try and be more direct.

Are you suggesting this guidance says Dr Upton could enter the woman's changing rooms, if so please point where it suggests this. (I am sure you saw the other guidance which of course makes it clear he can't)

And again you ignore the question about the 18 yr old student nurse. If you believe an older nurse is a transphobe by your logic the 18 year old is also a transphobe, yes or no?

Apologies for being so direct but I am not sure what your points actually are.

[superfurryhibby]

The University of Sussex has been fined £585,000 by the higher education regulator, the Office for Students (OfS), for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

The OfS investigation started with the case of Prof Kathleen Stock, who left the university in 2021 after being accused of transphobia for her views on sex and gender issues.

The OfS said the university's policy statement on trans and non-binary equality, including a requirement to "positively represent trans people", could lead to staff and students preventing themselves from voicing opposing views.

In an outbreak of sanity, it would seem the tide is turning in this debate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9vr4vjzgqo

[Bishop Hibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

Well well well imagine that! Hopefully the ‘woman can be born with a penis’ nonsense can be put to bed once and for all.

[Keith_M]

Common sense has finally prevailed.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

[147lothian]

This is a victory for common sense. The High Court ruling is saying that a woman is not a costume, it is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

[lapsedhibee]

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This is a victory for common sense. The High Court ruling is saying that a woman is not a costume, it is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

When did the High Court say this?

[Keith_M]

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When did the High Court say this?

They didn't mention costumes or stuff, just the biological bit

😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

[lapsedhibee]

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They didn't mention costumes or stuff, just the biological bit

😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

Oh, I didn't realise that the High Court and the Supreme Court are the same thing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Oh, I didn't realise that the High Court and the Supreme Court are the same thing.

When Diana left the Supremes, she got high.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

Responding to my own post!

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/government-bans-gender-neutral-toilets-in-all-new-public-buildings#:~:text='Gender%20neutral%20toilets%20al low%20some,to%20use%20facilities%20with%20dignity' &text=We%20are%20alarmed%20by%20this,Homophobic%20 and%20Transphobic%20hate%20crime.

Banned by the UK government!!

[147lothian]

This ruling means that biological sex is recognized in law as being real, if you watch next years UK woman's pool final, you won't see two men in the final competing against each other like what happened in this years woman's pool final, even if they have £5 Gender Recognition Certificates.

[Bristolhibby]

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This ruling means that biological sex is recognized in law as being real, if you watch next years UK woman's pool final, you won't see two men in the final competing against each other like what happened in this years woman's pool final, even if they have £5 Gender Recognition Certificates.

Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J