lol - goodbye hertzQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibs07p
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lol - goodbye hertzQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibs07p
:faf: Aye they'll write off £25 million of debt and forget about their claim on Tynie for a CVA share of £2M right enough. How much did Duff and Duffer get for their handywork again? £2.7 million, wasn't it? http://news.stv.tv/west-central/1875...dministration/Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs07p
Who has said it's acceptable to the creditors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo_1875
Whoo hooo! Barry is back!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs07p
Corset on to protect sides from splitting, currently doing face exercises to loosen up cheek muscles as they can ache a bit too.
Reality is now officially on hold!!!!!
COME ON BARRY WHAT'S NEXT?
Don't forget the administrators fees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo_1875
Even then, what would it really get the creditors? Would it not all be taken by the secured creditors? If it was/is the case that it would all go to those who hold the securities the ordinary creditors would get Zip. And BDO's fees would then be deducted to boot. And what would happen to the cash at the bank?
BJ answered the creditor question in one word.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarneyK
NO.
A bid would be structured as:-Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falcon
xp/£ for the secured creditors.
yp/£ for the unsecured.
£z for the admin fees.
Precisely. So unless things change, I guess what we realistically are looking at is Tynie being sold and them going the way of a YamCo?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Nobody has said that..... In fact, all bids are NOT acceptable at this stage :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo_1875
This will run, and run methinks :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by BarneyK
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I thought I was confused before. Might need Diazepam now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
Ah, the ancient Chinese philosophy. Jambos are living in interesting times, are they not?
From my window I see the sunshine, I hear the the birdies singing in the trees. It's a beautiful day ...
http://santamilagros.files.wordpress...6/vultures.jpg
The three prospective bidders. Massone's the one in the middle.
They could very well get liquidated.
But do they go to division three or the lowland league?
Is the working capital is this the money they asume will run the club for a cple of seasons? If so FOH will rely on promises from supporters to be made each month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs07p
Does this include tyncastle in the bids? Im sure if admin sold seperately it would make much more?
Looks like 3 yams in a tree to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doddie
Snarfing money off "wee teams" just to prolong their inevitable doom. Vultures!
Aw, gonnae no be nasty to the nice birdies?
When you compare a vulture to a Yam, it's the vulture who has grounds for legal action, not the Yam.
I don't have a clue. One of our resident experts, CWG appears to be the "on call advisor" this morning. What is obvious though is that the first 2 bids are more beneficial to the debtors than the creditors. Something far wrong if that scenario was accepted, which I don't believe they will.Quote:
Originally Posted by gegs70
GGTTH
I should have said the Massone bid is the most advantageous to the creditors and BDO. Cash for running costs shouldn't be of interest to them.
Wouldn't forcing the sale of Tynie be more advantageous compared to a £4 million CVA?Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo_1875
Nasty carrion-devouring scavenger:
http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.2.../490016676.jpg
Nice birdie:
http://www.picgifs.com/bird-graphics...ure-067562.bmp
The Yams:
http://paulbernal.files.wordpress.co...from-grave.jpg
Probably but I'm only comparing the bids on the table. Could all be ***** though as these are figures quoted by BAnderson.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarneyK
at best the Liths in total get £4.5m from the unpopular liquidation of Tynie. This way they are not seen as killing the club. In a CVA their proportion of the debt is the amount their debt exceeds the assets they are secured on which will make them 90% of the creditors. So £5m gives them £4.5m and leaves Massone with the knife in his hands!Quote:
Originally Posted by BarneyK
But will they really care how they look? It's not as if it will affect any business of theirs in this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
Would BDO's fees be subtracted first from any sum offered towards a CVA, or would they receive them from the creditors?Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
GGTTH
Argh you're getting soft on your previous "liquidation now" stance and seem to be favouring Massone.Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
you sound like you have changed your tune. Weren't you 100% sure they would get liquidated.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
I think the plan is to liquidate once the SPFL is underway.
They then will have a better chance of not being thrown out.
Precisely. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by HibeeMG
I have a feeling that the yam's "Lithuania love-in" is about to come to an abrupt end. :brokenyam:
Given they are likely to get at least £7 m for Tynie on the open market for redevelopment, then unless they come up with a couple of mill more then liquidation is surely still favourite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
Based on these bids it looks like the yams debt after administration will be somewhere around £8 million except, this time around, they'll actually be paying interest.
Eventually if Massone takes charge. In the next few weeks if he does not. Did not think anybody would come in with £5m upfront on the table. But the question is as I poised before does 5 star really have the money and what are the conditions they have laid down for the bid. BDO saying none of the bids acceptable. Probability wise I am still going 70% certainty of liquidation now against 100% later! Sit back and enjoy the ride!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
C'mon guys, a lot of you are basing your thoughts on what Barry Anderson says the bids are. That's not the most reliable of evidence.
As for the Record, I have my doubts about that amount too.
Get yerselves over to the Private Members' Forum. Here endeth the advert.
The beyond parody Ian 'I'm an MP' Murray latest Twitter offering.
Ian Murray MP @IanMurrayMP38m
“@AcanthusHome: Acanthus Decorating Sale! Paint, paper, fabrics & lighting - over 50% off items! pic.twitter.com/7A0TTjFUn6” gr8 local business.
:faf:
Barry's numbers most likely include all sorts of caveats and conditions of the "we'll pay you x now, y later and z if Hearts stay up / win the cup / qualify for Europe" variety. That was the impression I took when Jackson explained why the bids as made this week would not be acceptable to the Lithuanians.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
For context, the offer made by the Blue Knights for Rangers included a payment of £2M if Rangers reached the quarter finals of the Champions League.
No, really.
:cb
Damn you PTS. Got me thinking, who were the last Scottish team to do it ? Dundee Utd - 1984. I'm away to check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
Ian Black will be chuffed about that. Over 50% off his work tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pames McJake
Thats my worry.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
And as CWG said £x would go to the secured and £y would go towards a CVA. Allisbarry has Massone bidding £4m, not £5m, which would reduce the pot to both parties considerably, less BDO's fees. And the new owner also picks up any cash that BDO has raised? Is that right?
I also assume that "working capital" does not benefit the creditors 1p but benefits Hearts greatly.
Yeah. The £5m quoted may be a headline figure, but only if all of the above etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
certainly would be the Hearts way. More clubs going in administration will no doubt follow the same jammy routes in future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waxy
I've seen a valuation of £4.5m tops for Tynie. It's a buy and hold when property prices are falling in Edinburgh and plenty of more attractive sites and empty new builds. £7m way to high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby
Huns in 92/93 played in the (first ever) Champions League groups, which were 2 groups of 4 with the winners progressing to the final. Huns finished second to Sauzee's Marseille.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
Why would the Liths. be interested in any way ,shape or form, in the amount the new owners are going to put in to run the Club after they have retied back to Lithland with a few pennies in exchange for the £ 70 odd million Ukio Bankas are down on the deal when Vlad decided to buy Hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
The Liths should play hardball. FOH are in this to save Hearts so tell them its £ 2million for the Club and a 2 year lease on the ground and then it goes on the open market. Plenty time to establish the true possibilities for the site and time for FOH to raise cash for the purchase price or to have sold their cream of Scottish youth to Chelsea, PSG or whoever.
Definitely not counting this. The Huns as they were then, won two games due to fluke goals in the group. The 'away' game against CSKA played in Germany i think. Everything went for them that year and still greeting their eyes oot about Tapie.:cbQuote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
Really - property prices are bouncing back strongly and it was valued at more than £20m six years ago. There has to be a realisitic chance of getting at least the secured value on it in an open market sale. Why wouldn't the Liths want to test out its development value?Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
If the "other advert" is genuine, BDO have been testing that market. Perhaps that's a tactical move, to show the Liths how much they might expect on the open market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby
Down 3.7% in the last quarter! They have already done this through the BDO advert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...es/html/qp.stm
Surely there has to be a rule about being liquidated during the season?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernia Na Eir
Barry's figures are wrong. I wasn't given the working capital figures yesterday but the CVA money is way out. Every one of them is higher than the figure I was told and I've no reason to doubt my source as he's been bang on about everything thus far. What's laughable is even Barry's exaggerated numbers are unlikely to save Hearts.
Is it genuine, though? People I know, who have responded to it, have had no feedback from BDO.Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
If it is genuine, the deadline was yesterday. What response was there to it?
If a company that owns a club is liquidated, it ceases to be. It is an ex-company.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waxy
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-ev...bids-1-3000656Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
Thanks to the financial whizzes on here, i thought i was getting my head around this. The EEN today is confusing. Anyone decipher this paragraph particularly.
Quote:
Foundation of Hearts’ offer totals £5.75 million, including £2m to fund a Creditors’ Voluntary Arrangement (CVA). The remaining £3.75m would come from fans. The Foundation calculate that cash pledges from around 5700 fans at an average of £18.50 per month can be used as working capital to run Hearts for the next three years.
The whole FOH bid is massively flawed. What Barry doesn't take in to account is that some of that Direct Debit money has to be used to pay back the CVA money to the people who loaned it to FOH in the first place and there is absolutely no way in hell they'll still have 5700 Direct Debits in 3 years time. The whole business model just doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
I wonder if Banderson will end up being held partially culpable for their demise?
His endless allisbarry chat is funny to us, but they actually believe it! Complacency born of his "there are no tanks in Baghdad" lies is going to kill them.
From the Wonga million to these vastly inflated figures, the average Hearts fan who only reads the papers thinks that things are a lot less serious than they are.
Cheers Baz, you total roaster.
So.... if their offer is £5.75m, of which £2m is for the CVA and £3.75m for working capital......Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
that leaves £nil for the secured creditor(s).
Right. :rolleyes:
Definitely a touch of the reaper about him!Quote:
Originally Posted by brog
Attachment 10504
It means their offer to the Lithuanians is £2M.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
The money they hope/expect to raise from pledges is £1.25M a year for the next three years. This would be used to subsidise the running of the club after they've taken over.
In a sense it's quite a realistic bid, because any new owner will need external finance (in the case of FOH, the pledges) to run the club. They've effectively lost 6000+ ST sales this season because it was used to pay last year's bills before they went bust, so they definitely need subsidising this year. Then there's the risk of being relegated, which would affect them in years 2 and 3 (at least, with Rangers coming up). The biggest problem with the bid is that £2M is below even a conservative estimate of what the Lithuanians could make by just liquidating the company.
The FT ad was for the business and assets of Hearts, ie to continue as a football club.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
It's only if the offers on that basis fall well short of expectations will they seriously explore the option of selling it on a break-up basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
Thanks guys. Thought i was missing something. No author on article but Bandersons fingerprints all over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
They wouldn't be killing the club, just relieving them of their stadium. They're talking about moving anyway and you can just bet once all this - "It's only worth a pittance" - is done with and they've bought it for said pittance, they'll be trying to sell it for a bundle to help finance their new stadium somewhere new.Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
wonder how much the prize money is for winning the administration cup :tee hee:
BDO will gave put there feelers out as well as the bidders as to what is market price of Tynie that is the basis for the value of their bids as they know that is the benchmark.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Realistic in the sense its what they think they can afford. There must be serious doubts about 5000+ pledgers over three years. They would probably have to pay the person(s), who ponied up the original £2m, back during that time period as well, wouldn't want to wait beyond that if i was the original lender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
Has Massone possibly appealed to the seller by just giving a figure as i don't see why they would be interested in working capital unless its linked to the bid. ie your previous post with conditions for more money to be paid over an agreed period of time ?
You didn't answer the question :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
If I knew the answer to it, I might have a better feel for what their tactics are.
If BDO were serious in their efforts to get offers for the land only they would have advertised it a bit more prominently than they have.
If it was'nt for Hibs.net I would have been totally unaware of the potential asset sale and I don't suppose we are the first point of contact for parties interested in 7acres of city centre land.
I dare say BDO can wire back the Lith admin. and tell him there had been no interest in the land only despite it being advertised. I wonder if BDO even bothered to drop a private note to Companies and agents who might be interested.
Did they actually, though?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
And, if it is a genuine ad, were there any offers?
If there were any offers why has BDO not mentioned them.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Why has no-one asked?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
:greengrin
I think Hibs.net should be at the next BDO press conference.
How do we know they haven't.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
No one knows the context of each bid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Better still can someone not communicate with the Lith. Admins. and hint that their appointees are not trying hard enough. :greengrin
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunderhall
Like I say, maybe the right questions aren't being asked.
I know that, but my question was about whether it was a genuine ad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
The closing date for offers in that ad was yesterday. I know of two enquiries, neither of whom have had acknowledgements or responses from BDO.
If it's genuine, I can understand why they put it out there. I'm unconvinced, though.
Just wondering if Hearts are liquidated, which is looking more likely by the day, should we wear the black strip for the rest of the season as a mark of respect.
Just a suggestion. :greengrin
Bajillions
[B] "..........there is absolutely no way in hell they'll still have 5700 Direct Debits in 3 years time. The whole business model just doesn't work @ /B].[/QUOTE]
Spot on !!
As I have posted on here earlier I have Jambo mates who don't intend leaving the DD in place after 31st December 2013 .
@ Club has to be run as a business ' is their take on the situation
To be honest for the ordinary guy in the street like most of us on here there are far too many imponderables re the debts to the Lithuanians to be able to make any real forecast as to what will happen in the short to mid term
:rolleyes:
Hearts are ****ed, so it all balances itself out in the end. :cbQuote:
Originally Posted by Geo_1875
Who would bother to take the time and expense of placing a fake advert and why ?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
..which is the other question that's been bugging me :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Seveno
When I first raised my question, it was because it had been seen on BusinessesForSale.com, which is free. At that time, I didn't realise that it was in the FT.... when I realised that, my suspicions eased.
Until this week when, as I say, I know of two enquiries.... etc etc.
Factor into that the misleading statements in the ad......
This is what I don't get - the piddling amounts (allegedly) being offered when, in reality, they've had an amount of money poured into them that's a lot more than this much-vaunted £25m. Doesn't the 'Debt-for-Equity' deals take the actual amount of hard, physical cash to approximately £60m ??. If I'd given someone a loan of £60 and all they offered back was £2, I'd be looking to give that someone a boot in the plums - i.e - Sell their property ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
They've still got to pay £500,000 to HMRC in both May 2014 & May 2015 have they not?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Nope, that tax debt disappeared into the black hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrabus
Some plots in west Edinburgh (less attractive and further out than gorgie) are attracting 10-12 bidders for land.
Roughly £10m land value per 100 homes
Tynecastles got a value as housing land or supermarket land
It was a "payment by instalments" agreement - surely if the company is still trading then the debt is still due? Can't see HMRC taking this lying down - it's £1m we're talking about here after all!Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
This bit from The Evening News article:
A CVA would enable Hearts to exit administration if it is accepted by the club’s main creditors Ukio Bankas and Ukio Bankas Investment Group (UBIG), who are owed £15m and £10m respectively. They would need to agree to accept a small portion of that amount for a CVA to go through.
Is it not the case that UKIO are secured creditors, and UBIG are more than likely to be. If so, are they both excluded from the CVA?
No. They would get a vote in any CVA proposal, but the likelihood is that they wouldn't be able to block any proposal. It's up to the Lithuanians. Truth is that if they get as far as a CVA being tabled it would almost certainly pass because they would have agreed it in advance with the main creditors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrabus
As far as I can tell, UKIO are secured and UBIG are unsecured. UBIG were secured, but that security was transferred to Ukio along with some of the debt last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zondervan
If it has planning permission it is easily worth £10m but it currently does not have planning permission and you can imagine how toxic getting permission might be. So I am not surprised CALA have not come back yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Springbank
I disagree. If it is sold off to a developer then it will get planning permission easily. There is no way that the council would want to have a derelict pile of junk in the middle of the city sitting there doing nothing and rotting into an even bigger mess than it is now. At least at the moment the derelict pile of junk has a football club playing there, although hopefully not for much longerQuote:
Originally Posted by Islington Hibs
What surprises me most is the FOH bid, although maybe not considering their inept performance so far.
£2m, even double that, is a derisory amount for the club they seemingly hold in such high regard. Its hardly worth BDO even discussing it with them.
Was it just chat on here, or maybe I imagined it, that BDO dropped hints they'd be looking for around £10m? i.e. the amounts being discussed above as land value.
Wasn't AllisBarry, he's on holiday at the moment.:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
He's back twatting though, maybe not allowed to put his name to anything yet in order for it not to be discredited straight away.Quote:
Originally Posted by londonhibby
He did the usual EEN twat tease just before lunchtime.
I missed that one. What site are you referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Springbank
Now that Hearts have won the first silverware of the season, in the form of the Administration Cup, I wonder if we can expect to see them immediately use the riches conferred and splash out on new players?
#allisbarry is named in the paper edition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunderhall
GGTTH
Looks like things are looking up for them after their outstanding performance in todays begging bowl cup to lift the famous trophy and a share of the gate money fron the whopping 4000 crowd
There will have to be an allowance made for un-secured creditors say 10% = £200,000 and BDO's fees ( £800,000 ? ) would also come out of the £ 2 million.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Anyone think the Liths will happily accept £ 1 million.
I noticed there was a bumper 4500 at the administration cip match today. After costs are deducted there won't be much left
They get a vote in line with how much their debt exceeds the value if the assets the debt is secured on. So £20m (25 - 5) if the whole if HMFC and stadium worth £5m. That is they would be more than 75% of the vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zondervan
And those two enquiries are.......?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
So definitely cack then. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs07p
Would have been three if Sidney hadn't used 2nd class stamps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seveno
Where did the Romanov pic on this thread come from? Is it photoshop handy work, did he lose a bet and have to wear the top or is it he was a Hibbie all along?
A little from column a, a little from column c mate!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ship Hibs
Of course this depends on what value HMFC is given but that should match the the highest bid (£4-5 million). Also is the £10 million UBIG debt secured? My feeling is no as the shares they hold come from the debt to equity conversions. This still leaves Ukio Bankas with £10m of debt (15m -5m) in a CVA vote so unless the remaining unsecured debt exceed £3.33m they will have more than 75% of any CVA vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
Is the widely quoted £25m owed to UBIG/Ukio a final confirmed figure? Is it possible that the Lithuanian authorities could decide the debt for equity swaps and debt write offs were dodgy and reverse them somehow?Quote:
Originally Posted by desantos0773
That would be fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo_1875
I would have thought, when they start following the money coming in and out of that group of companies, this and many more issues will be flagged up.
Original.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ship Hibs
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...15326815_n.jpg