The Trans Rights Debate

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17-01-2023, 04:16 PM
Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3f8e6b8206.jpg

Monica Lennon hammering Starmer and Murray on radio Scotland just now.

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17-01-2023, 04:17 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It doesn't say that?

I’m sure it doesn’t list all the things it doesn’t do.

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17-01-2023, 04:17 PM
Hibrandenburg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator. There has to be some sort of checks and balances written in to the Act, which most agree is a good idea for the Trans community, just poorly executed.

We're not America and we don't consider amendments to be unamendable, if the legislation needs changing or another government wants it changed we can change it.

We need to keep some perspective here and remember that there's a proven bigger threat from predator males dressing in police uniforms than predator males dressing as women.
17-01-2023, 04:18 PM
weecounty hibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's not just about the act of rape its the destruction of the choice of women to have female only spaces. Do you think women should be able to have say rape crisis to be biological female only or disabled people have female only care or female only sport. If you answered yes to any some would call you anti trans which is mental but it's where the discussion has gone, black and white, one side or the other.

It's not black and white tho is it, no matter how much folk who are entrenched in the debate would like it to be. I 100% see both sides of the debate and its why I never engaged on this thread till recently. One post I replied to genuinely stated that Nicola Sturgeon had deliberately manufactured this as a grievance. She is clearly a better politician than anyone gives her credit for to get the 3 unionist parties to vote in favour of that. It is that kind of talk that has made this bill toxic. The loudest voices are the ones so entrenched that they refuse to see the other side, and even worse are the ones who see it only as a way of having a go at the SG.
17-01-2023, 04:18 PM
Ozyhibby

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17-01-2023, 04:18 PM
He's here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

You tell me? I never said he did, I only said that Maugham doesn't. Dunlop was someone who demanded that the SG follow Kwartengs lead, I believe you may also have said similar, or he was moving to England so maybe he does. Be interested to hear your take on it.

I don't know any more than you about him. Somebody posted a link to his tweets earlier, I read them and I thought they seemed well reasoned, but I'm not a lawyer. How do you know Maugham doesn't have an agenda?
17-01-2023, 04:19 PM
Hibrandenburg

Quote:

Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Beat me to it.
17-01-2023, 04:21 PM
ronaldo7

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.
17-01-2023, 04:22 PM
Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6eab342801.jpg

https://twitter.com/htscotpol/status...b6M4Oxi9T3TeFA

Like I said earlier, there doesn’t seem to be much of a legal argument in what the UK has put out other than ‘we don’t like it’.

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17-01-2023, 04:22 PM
Stairway 2 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

It's not black and white tho is it, no matter how much folk who are entrenched in the debate would like it to be. I 100% see both sides of the debate and its why I never engaged on this thread till recently. One post I replied to genuinely stated that Nicola Sturgeon had deliberately manufactured this as a grievance. She is clearly a better politician than anyone gives her credit for to get the 3 unionist parties to vote in favour of that. It is that kind of talk that has made this bill toxic. The loudest voices are the ones so entrenched that they refuse to see the other side, and even worse are the ones who see it only as a way of having a go at the SG.

Exactly it's not black and white there's probably 5% of extremists on both sides and most are in the shades in the middle. I don't think sturgeon engineered it, I believe she the best most honest uk leader by a canter
17-01-2023, 04:22 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

I’m sure a judge will take that into account.[emoji23]

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17-01-2023, 04:24 PM
Stairway 2 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I’m sure it doesn’t list all the things it doesn’t do.

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You should read it its balanced and not extreme, but doesn't go to your personal opinion so perhaps useless
17-01-2023, 04:25 PM
Ozyhibby

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Will he appear? Surely he couldn’t dodge this?

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17-01-2023, 04:27 PM
Hibrandenburg

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

She said it needs fixed in Scotland which suggests it was broken. Holyrood can still pass it with some amendments from what I understand.

Holyrood passed it with a clear majority amongst those elected by the people of Scotland to decide on their behalf. It's called democracy and if opinion changes then democracy can change it. You really can't stand the idea of the people of Scotland deciding matters for themselves, can you?
17-01-2023, 04:27 PM
weecounty hibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by He's here!

I don't know any more than you about him. Somebody posted a link to his tweets earlier, I read them and I thought they seemed well reasoned, but I'm not a lawyer. How do you know Maugham doesn't have an agenda?

Maugham is also a lawyer, well reasoned argument? Or are you sticking with Dunlop? Maughams only agenda I have ever seen from him is fighting injustices and plain wrongdoing from government. Dunlop seems very much all about him, leaving Scotland because of tax, aye very good
17-01-2023, 04:27 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman.
17-01-2023, 04:30 PM
marinello59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

Speared by Alistair Carmichael. That’s two Lib Dem’s I have name checked positively today, these really are weird times. :greengrin

The whole document looks cobbled together. I’ll leave to the experts here to say whether it’s going to stand up in court or not but it looks weak to me.
17-01-2023, 04:30 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

Maugham is also a lawyer, well reasoned argument? Or are you sticking with Dunlop? Maughams only agenda I have ever seen from him is fighting injustices and plain wrongdoing from government. Dunlop seems very much all about him, leaving Scotland because of tax, aye very good

And clubbing foxes to death on Boxing Day wearing a Japanese kimono.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...a-fox-to-death
17-01-2023, 04:33 PM
marinello59

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman and children.

Why would identifying as a woman give anybody increased access to children?
17-01-2023, 04:34 PM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinello59

Speared by Alistair Carmichael. That’s two Lib Dem’s I have name checked positively today, these really are weird times. :greengrin

The whole document looks cobbled together. I’ll leave to the experts here to say whether it’s going to stand up in court or not but it looks weak to me.

Both of Christine Jardines interventions were very good.

Lock me up now. 😂
17-01-2023, 04:34 PM
He's here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

This bill does not allow a man to simply state that he feels like a woman today, just so he can legally access female spaces in order to commit illegal acts (which would be a pointless course of action anyway). If you had taken the time to actually read the bill, you would have been fully aware of this.

Once again, it's hyperbole that has been stirred up by an anti-progressive Conservative press that is completely baseless and out of touch with the reality of the situation.

I have read the bill. More than once. And (to state the obvious) it says nothing about enabling a man to do such a thing. It does however remove any meaningful checks and balances when it comes to a male 'becoming' a woman. Coupled with the associated Court of Session ruling which effectively removes biology from the equation, its impact on what it actually means to be a woman - as well as the potential safety concerns it raises - are obvious. I respect your views on this as they are clearly heartfelt and you appear to be one of the few posters who is basing their arguments on sound knowledge of the bill's contents but I cannot agree it changes nothing.
17-01-2023, 04:38 PM
marinello59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Both of Christine Jardines interventions were very good.

Lock me up now. 😂

:greengrin
17-01-2023, 04:40 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinello59

Why would identifying as a woman give anybody increased access to children?

Your right, just woman.
17-01-2023, 04:41 PM
ronaldo7

318-71 on the motion in the UK parliament.

Labour have done a runner again.
17-01-2023, 04:41 PM
Kato

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman and children.

Is joining the Met police an "extreme length"?

Seems to be natural home for misogynists and pretty easy for them to find work there.

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17-01-2023, 04:44 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

318-71 on the motion in the UK parliament.

Labour have done a runner again.

‘Take back control’. Unless your Scottish. [emoji35]
Disgusting after last week boasting about devolving power away from Westminster. Fails the first test.

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17-01-2023, 05:07 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

Wind up, surely.

Wtf has it got to do with HMRC?
17-01-2023, 05:13 PM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Wind up, surely.

Wtf has it got to do with HMRC?

Something about men changing to women and pensions.

Para 20 on the "reasons" document I think.

"The most notable example is the administration of tax, benefit and State pensions which are managed by integrated systems across the UK that span reserved and devolved functions, operating for both the UK and Scottish governments. Existing IT infrastructure only allows one legal sex on any record and cannot change the marker for 16 to 17 year olds. Those responsible for these systems consider that it may be unmanageable, even with considerable time and expense,[footnote 4] to build system capability to manage a dual identity for the same individual if someone’s legal sex could be different in Scots law and the law for England and Wales."
17-01-2023, 05:18 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Something about men changing to women and pensions.

Para 20 on the "reasons" document I think.

The most notable example is the administration of tax, benefit and State pensions which are managed by integrated systems across the UK that span reserved and devolved functions, operating for both the UK and Scottish governments. Existing IT infrastructure only allows one legal sex on any record and cannot change the marker for 16 to 17 year olds. Those responsible for these systems consider that it may be unmanageable, even with considerable time and expense,[footnote 4] to build system capability to manage a dual identity for the same individual if someone’s legal sex could be different in Scots law and the law for England and Wales.

They have been dealing with differences between Scots and English law for eons. They currently deal with different tax laws. They have been dealing with people who change gender for as long as that has been a thing.

HMRC's IT record is not the best, but their "existing infrastructure" is constantly being changed.

It's an excuse, no more.
17-01-2023, 05:19 PM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They have been dealing with differences between Scots and English law for eons. They currently deal with different tax laws. They have been dealing with people who change gender for as long as that has been a thing.

It's an excuse, no more.

The reasons document are full of them.
17-01-2023, 05:21 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They have been dealing with differences between Scots and English law for eons. They currently deal with different tax laws. They have been dealing with people who change gender for as long as that has been a thing.

HMRC's IT record is not the best, but their "existing infrastructure" is constantly being changed.

It's an excuse, no more.

Sometimes excuses are all you’ve got.

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17-01-2023, 05:21 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

Is joining the Met police an "extreme length"?

Seems to be natural home for misogynists and pretty easy for them to find work there.

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Not sure if you are being serious?

It's a harder and longer process than sitting in your bedroom for 3 months doing nothing and declaring yourself you are now a woman.
17-01-2023, 05:21 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman.

Sexual predators don't care if they're allowed to access vulnerable people or not. They simply will. They don't require a GRC to do so. Why would any sexual predator wait 3 months to change their gender identification to gain access to vulnerable people when they can already access vulnerable people as men anyway?
17-01-2023, 05:24 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Sexual predators don't care if they're allowed to access vulnerable people or not. They simply will. They don't require a GRC to do so. Why would any sexual predator wait 3 months to change their gender identification to gain access to vulnerable people when they can already access vulnerable people as men anyway?

Why do they become policemen, priests, teacher etc?
17-01-2023, 05:30 PM
WeeRussell

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Why do they become policemen, priests, teacher etc?

To get paid money?
17-01-2023, 05:36 PM
Kato

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Not sure if you are being serious?

It's a harder and longer process than sitting in your bedroom for 3 months doing nothing and declaring yourself you are now a woman.

Yes but you are claiming that he joined the Met in order to abuse women. Maybe he just wanted to be a copper and was an abuser anyway.

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17-01-2023, 05:37 PM
Berwickhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeRussell

Out of interest, is your issue that you don’t think trans people should be allowed to use regular public toilets/changing rooms etc?

Once transitioned no problem …my honest concern is the possibility of abuse by predators claiming to be trans, I have said previously that I fully support the spirit of the Act and people with gender issues need as much support and help as possible. The abuse I imagine will not come from those transitioning.
17-01-2023, 05:39 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Why do they become policemen, priests, teacher etc?

You'll find sexual predators in almost all occupations. The one's with sexual offence records are however limited in the occupations they can involve themselves in for obvious reasons. These laws apply equally to men and women with such records.

What confuses me is why you think a man pretending to identify as a woman would somehow make it easier for him to access vulnerable people. What are you basing that on?
17-01-2023, 05:41 PM
CropleyWasGod

In other news, the UK Government have rowed back on their previous view that conversion therapy for trans people in England & Wales can be allowed:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64304142

Some good news :agree:
17-01-2023, 05:41 PM
WeeRussell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Once transitioned no problem …my honest concern is the possibility of abuse by predators claiming to be trans, I have said previously that I fully support the spirit of the Act and people with gender issues need as much support and help as possible. The abuse I imagine will not come from those transitioning.

Fair dos and Thanks for reply 👍
17-01-2023, 05:47 PM
CropleyWasGod

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.u...ntervention-o/
17-01-2023, 06:00 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.u...ntervention-o/

Yeah, but what would they know?[emoji849]

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17-01-2023, 06:02 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.u...ntervention-o/

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.
17-01-2023, 06:02 PM
Hibrandenburg

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Not sure if you are being serious?

It's a harder and longer process than sitting in your bedroom for 3 months doing nothing and declaring yourself you are now a woman.

Which pretty much proves the point that predators will do what they do regardless of checks and balances.
17-01-2023, 06:03 PM
Kato

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a SG Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.

Is this the thing you call "deflection"?

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17-01-2023, 06:06 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

Is this the thing you call "deflection"?

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No, just an opinion. Look who funds most of those organisations.
17-01-2023, 06:07 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Which pretty much proves the point that predators will do what they do regardless of checks and balances.

So why make it easier for them than it already is? We should just accept it happens so do nothing?
17-01-2023, 06:07 PM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.u...ntervention-o/

Very powerful.
17-01-2023, 06:11 PM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.

In other news, Rape crisis Scotland are a registered charity and have been since 1996, pre dating the reconvened Scottish Parliament.
17-01-2023, 06:11 PM
Kato

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

No, just an opinion. Look who funds most of those organisations.

I see, it's when others look at who funds people it's deflection.

Did you read the article?

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17-01-2023, 06:16 PM
147lothian

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinello59

Why would identifying as a woman give anybody increased access to children?

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/sco...ice-criticised
17-01-2023, 06:16 PM
Stairway 2 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.u...ntervention-o/

An organisation who defended their Edinburgh leader a trans women, when she said that women who have been raped and don't want to speak to trans councillors are bigoted and need re-education. They are very much on the side of trans women being literal women so should be in female rape crisis groups
17-01-2023, 06:18 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

I see, it's when others look at who funds people it's deflection.

Did you read the article?

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It's an option like everyone else has, I am not surprised it reflects the position of the SG though. Ultimately the courts will decide who is right and who is wrong.

I see no difference if a bunch of Tory funded organisations came out with the opposite view and people went well of course they would say that, they are funded by the Tories.
17-01-2023, 06:20 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by 147lothian

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds for 71 days, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Pollmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison

They could have committed these crimes anyway without the need to identify as a woman.
17-01-2023, 06:21 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Ultimately the courts will decide who is right and who is wrong.

They won't though, because the UK Government can just overrule them anyway.
17-01-2023, 06:21 PM
WeeRussell

Quote:

Originally Posted by 147lothian

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds for 71 days, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Pollmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison

Would it be pedantic to suggest that someone could grab a victim by the face and force them into a cubicle without being a fully recognised trans person?
17-01-2023, 06:24 PM
Hibrandenburg

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

So why make it easier for them than it already is? We should just accept it happens so do nothing?

So why have police, teachers or priests if they're an even bigger risk than transgender women? "Because we need them" isn't an acceptable answer because that would open a can of worms regarding many other minority sections of society.
17-01-2023, 06:25 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

No, just an opinion. Look who funds most of those organisations.

And here's mine.

I have worked with and against many of those organisations over a period of over 20 years. I deeply disagree with their views on some things, and applaud them on others.

However, at no time would I ever doubt their integrity and their commitment to their own values, even if I disagree with them. The suggestion that they would compromise those values for cash is pretty offensive.

To paraphrase a colleague, "if they resort to ad hominem attacks, you've probably won the debate".
17-01-2023, 06:31 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by 147lothian

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/sco...ice-criticised

What has that got to do with the GRA? And what has it to do with the equalities act in England?

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17-01-2023, 06:33 PM
He's here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

‘Take back control’. Unless your Scottish. [emoji35]
Disgusting after last week boasting about devolving power away from Westminster. Fails the first test.

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There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.
17-01-2023, 06:35 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by He's here!

There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.

Would that be the SNP, Labour, Lib Dem and Tory Party? Because MSPs across the board have backed the Gender Reform Bill.
17-01-2023, 06:38 PM
Kato

Quote:

Originally Posted by He's here!

There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.

6 years of engineering a bill that is designed to trigger the UK Govt into revoking it.

If your assertion is true the SNP must be the best politicians ever to politic.

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17-01-2023, 06:41 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

They won't though, because the UK Government can just overrule them anyway.

Do you know this for a fact? What's the lottery numbers please?
17-01-2023, 06:46 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Do you know this for a fact? What's the lottery numbers please?

I said they can, I can't say whether they actually will or not. But the fact remains that they have given themselves the power to do so.
17-01-2023, 06:47 PM
weecounty hibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by He's here!

There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.

Yip, the Westminster Tories. SNP, Labour, Lib Dems, greens and even Tories voted for the Bill. Your point would be funny if it wasn't that you actually believed it
17-01-2023, 06:50 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

And here's mine.

I have worked with and against many of those organisations over a period of over 20 years. I deeply disagree with their views on some things, and applaud them on others.

However, at no time would I ever doubt their integrity and their commitment to their own values, even if I disagree with them. The suggestion that they would compromise those values for cash is pretty offensive.

To paraphrase a colleague, "if they resort to ad hominem attacks, you've probably won the debate".

The trans woman who runs the Edinburgh Rape Centre, the one who caused controversy with her views, guess which party she tried to become an MSP for? The SNP. I don't believe for one minute they don't let their political views impact their decisions either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. Politics in Scotland is so divisive it would be impossible to find a genuinely impartial organisation that is funded by the government. We have seen the third sector say they are scared to speak for fear of losing funding.

It's no different to the many on here who say the BBC has an inbuilt bias and that's lapped up.

All in my opinion of course.
17-01-2023, 06:53 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

6 years of engineering a bill that is designed to trigger the UK Govt into revoking it.

If your assertion is true the SNP must be the best politicians ever to politic.

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Especially as at the time they started it, the UK govt was intending doing the same thing.

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17-01-2023, 06:54 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

The trans woman who runs the Edinburgh Rape Centre, the one who caused controversy with her views, guess which party she tried to become an MSP for? The SNP. I don't believe for one minute they don't let their political views impact their decisions either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. Politics in Scotland is so divisive it would be impossible to find a genuinely impartial organisation that is funded by the government. We have seen the third sector say they are scared to speak for fear of losing funding.

It's no different to the many on here who say the BBC has an inbuilt bias and that's lapped up.

All in my opinion of course.

ERCC didn't sign that letter. They are irrelevant to this part of the debate.

As for the bit in bold, you're wrong. I have worked with and for a few, and know of plenty.

(and, no, I'm not saying who they are. I value my anonymity :greengrin)
17-01-2023, 07:02 PM
Kato

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Especially as at the time they started it, the UK govt was intending doing the same thing.

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Yeah, but they knew the UK Govt would drop it because, as asserted by He's Here, the SNP are the greatest political chicanarists ever.

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17-01-2023, 07:03 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

Yeah, but they knew the UK Govt would drop it because, as asserted by He's Here, the SNP are the greatest political chicanarists ever.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Why I love Hibs.net #324.

If that's not a word, it should be :greengrin
17-01-2023, 07:09 PM
greenlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

Yeah, but they knew the UK Govt would drop it because, as asserted by He's Here, the SNP are the greatest political chicanarists ever.

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Fabulous apart from the spelling. Cicadarists?
17-01-2023, 07:18 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Chicano artists? :dunno:

I don't know what the SNP have in connection to Mexican art. But I'm glad there is one. :cb
17-01-2023, 07:19 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenlex

Fabulous apart from the spelling. Cicadarists?

That's just not cricket.
17-01-2023, 07:56 PM
greenlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That's just not cricket.

😁
17-01-2023, 07:57 PM
Bristolhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Obviously not 🙄 but lets deflect and ignore an Act that could put predators in women’s safe spaces

It might not also.

J
17-01-2023, 08:00 PM
Bristolhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

So what's the problem?

Why would a man who has the intent of committing sexual assault, wait 3 months to have their gender identification changed just so they can legally access a female space in order to commit an illegal act?

It's completely illogical.

I know. It’s all a bit Simpsons “will anyone think of the children”.

Criminals gonna do crime. It’s what they do.

Bill or not.

J
17-01-2023, 08:12 PM
Ozyhibby

https://twitter.com/lordcfalconer/st...b6M4Oxi9T3TeFA

Labour peer has his say.

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17-01-2023, 08:18 PM
Bristolhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by 147lothian

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/sco...ice-criticised

This all happened before the GRB was passed.

No impact. Like I said, rapists are going to rape.

J
17-01-2023, 08:26 PM
Kato

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenlex

Fabulous apart from the spelling. Cicadarists?

As in "chicanery".

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17-01-2023, 08:42 PM
Moulin Yarns

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.u...ntervention-o/

Thanks CWG 👍
17-01-2023, 08:46 PM
Moulin Yarns

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.

Aye right 🙄

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/about-history/

Been on the go longer than the Scottish pretendy parliament!!!
17-01-2023, 08:52 PM
Moulin Yarns

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That's just not cricket.

Brought a giggle from me in this sometimes disturbing debate 😁
17-01-2023, 08:57 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Aye right ��

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/about-history/

Been on the go longer than the Scottish pretendy parliament!!!

Not sure what you mean? What's that got to do with who funds them?

This the same people?

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articl...ory-msp-s-name

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-wins-25866762
17-01-2023, 09:09 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Not sure what you mean? What's that got to do with who funds them?

This the same people?

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articl...ory-msp-s-name

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-wins-25866762

They are a charity that receives donations. They are funded by anybody who donates to their cause. The same applies to Rape Crisis England & Wales.
17-01-2023, 09:19 PM
grunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation

I wonder if you realise how desperate you sound, criticising a charity designed to assist rape victims. Low even for you.
17-01-2023, 09:19 PM
Berwickhibby

Thank goodness we have the Charity Rape Crisis….very little Government or Official support for victims.
17-01-2023, 09:22 PM
Moulin Yarns

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Thank goodness we have the Charity Rape Crisis….very little Government or Official support for victims.

Certainly not a lot of support from the people who should protect them, such as the metropolitan police!!!!
17-01-2023, 09:23 PM
Stairway 2 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunt

I wonder if you realise how desperate you sound, criticising a charity designed to assist rape victims. Low even for you.

A charity who defended a trans women staff member who said if rape victims want to be seen by a biological female, then they are bigoted and need re-education. Disgusting views
17-01-2023, 09:26 PM
Ozyhibby

I think after seeing Alistair Jack’s legal case this afternoon we are back to trans rapist and peado scare stories.

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17-01-2023, 09:27 PM
Stairway 2 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I think after seeing Alistair Jack’s legal case this afternoon we are back to trans rapist and peado scare stories.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Us talking about the legality of this is pretty silly. I'm sure the court's will be called and decide. The winner will be correct on the legality
17-01-2023, 09:28 PM
greenlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

As in "chicanery".

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Aye but I think cicadery works better.😁😁
17-01-2023, 09:30 PM
Berwickhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Certainly not a lot of support from the people who should protect them, such as the metropolitan police!!!!

I know I am a bit pissed, but you know nothing!!! the majority of the Met are hard working decent people, you know nothing about rape victims and the trauma suffered by them both male and female. I have dealt with the cruelty committed to others that you could not imagine. I was SOIT trained so do me a favour STFU or piss off
17-01-2023, 09:31 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

A charity who defended a trans women staff member who said if rape victims want to be seen by a biological female, then they are bigoted and need re-education. Disgusting views

They are different organisations.

The one you are talking about is Edinburgh RCS. They didn't sign the letter under debate.

It's Rape Crisis Scotland that the discussion is about.
17-01-2023, 09:32 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunt

I wonder if you realise how desperate you sound, criticising a charity designed to assist rape victims. Low even for you.

You seem to have a real problem with criticism of anything that's remotely related to the Scottish Government or SNP.

I am sure they do a great job in supporting victims and I am not critical of the day to day work they do. What I disagree with is the way RCS were and are wheeled out for statements every time something negative seemed to happen in the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry and then again today another "statement" that surprise surprise supports the Scottish Government. I would hope the SNP aren't using a rape charity to further their political aims, that would be a new low, even for them.
17-01-2023, 09:36 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

You seem to have a real problem with criticism of anything that's remotely related to the Scottish Government or SNP.

I am sure they do a great job in supporting victims and I am not critical of the day to day work they do. What I disagree with is the way RCS were and are wheeled out for statements every time something negative seemed to happen in the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry and then again today another "statement" that surprise surprise supports the Scottish Government. I would hope the SNP aren't using a rape charity to further their political aims, that would be a new low, even for them.

Do you have the same issues with the 14 other signatories?
17-01-2023, 09:39 PM
Stairway 2 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They are different organisations.

The one you are talking about is Edinburgh RCS. They didn't sign the letter under debate.

It's Rape Crisis Scotland that the discussion is about.

They are part of the same umbrella and backed Madwha and her comments at the time. They are free to have the opinion trans women are literally women, so should be in female rape crisis. But they are definitely on one side of the argument.

The comments that rape victims being bigoted and needing re-education is just vile, I know you'll agree. It shows the shades of the debate and the extreme views
17-01-2023, 09:40 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

A charity who defended a trans women staff member who said if rape victims want to be seen by a biological female, then they are bigoted and need re-education. Disgusting views

This is what she actually said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mridul Wadhwa

“Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. It is not a discerning crime. But these spaces are also for you. But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices.

If you have to re-frame your trauma, I think it is important as part of that re-framing, having a more positive relationship with it, where it becomes a story that empowers you and allows you to go and do other more beautiful things with your life, you also have to re-frame your relationship with prejudice.

Otherwise, you can’t really, in my view, recover from trauma and I think that’s a very important message that I am often discussing with my colleagues at Edinburgh Rape Crisis.

Because you know, to me, therapy is political, and it isn’t always seen as that.”
17-01-2023, 09:43 PM
Stairway 2 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

This is what she actually said:

It was in reference to objecting to trans women treating females. Absolutely vile to speak of re-educating rape victims. They don't need education they need support at their lowest point.
17-01-2023, 09:46 PM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Do you have the same issues with the 14 other signatories?

Not so much as they aren't wheeled out as and when the Scottish Government needs a statement to support whatever it is they want. Although I am sure most are majority funded by the SG so will have some in built bias that will support the Government's view.
17-01-2023, 09:52 PM
TrumpIsAPeado

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It was in reference to objecting to trans women treating females. Absolutely vile to speak of re-educating rape victims. They don't need education they need support at their lowest point.

Support often involves some form of re-education. When somebody has been though such a high level of trauma, it's not uncommon for them to lose control over multiple aspects of their life as a result. Addressing the emotional impact is only one aspect of the support that is often required.

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