The Trans Rights Debate

[Stairway 2 7]

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This bill does not allow a man to simply state that he feels like a woman today, just so he can legally access female spaces in order to commit illegal acts (which would be a pointless course of action anyway). If you had taken the time to actually read the bill, you would have been fully aware of this.

Once again, it's hyperbole that has been stirred up by an anti-progressive Conservative press that is completely baseless and out of touch with the reality of the situation.

It let's him change by living as a woman for 3 months. No checks or definitions on what this means. His birth certificate can be changed and no one can check this if he doesn't want them to.

I don't think this will enable more sex offenders. But women can have the protection from that if they feel they need it, almost all sex offenses are committed by men and the vast majority of trans women don't have and medical procedures

I think bigger than the worry of sexual offences is the right of women to have female only spaces. Women should have the choice to stay in domestic abuse homes or go to rape crisis centres without biological males there. Disabled woman like the woman a few pages back, should have the right of female biological care.

The defenders say gra doesn't change anything but it's a nonsense as argued well here
https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

I'd be happy for all right for trans people bar a few caveats, I reckon 90% are the same. Hopefully going forward unisex toilets and changing facilities are a standard in new builds. I'd also hope for more money pumped in to support trans people have their own rape crisis ect, so women can have their own. Having a wife and daughters who could be affected by this perhaps sways my thinking

[marinello59]

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I think you're being hopelessly naive tbh. The SNP was happy to compromise enough to get Green+Lab+Lib support at Holyrood but will dig in in the face of UK challenge that plays neatly into the "standing up for Scotland" narrative. The Tories are using this as a double whammy of a straightforward "war on woke" wedge issue combined with a "muscular unionist" attempt to diminish Holyrood. They have neatly stitched up Labour who are so paranoid about being seen to be "woke" that they are not standing up for their own devolution project.

I’m not that naive, I don’t really expect it to happen

I’m shifting on this after listening to Christine Jardine of all people speak. This isn’t a case of the two Governments being at loggerheads as I suggested, it’s an attack by one Parliament on another. This can only end up in the courts.

[WeeRussell]

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Not disagreeing, the beast needs punished and should have been caught and charged years ago. However case of a trans woman here in Fife attacking little girls in supermarket toilets… not one size fits all, but obviously, imho prevention is better than a cure.

Out of interest, is your issue that you don’t think trans people should be allowed to use regular public toilets/changing rooms etc?

[Ozyhibby]

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So what's the problem?

Why would a man who has the intent of committing sexual assault, wait 3 months to have their gender identification changed just so they can legally access a female space in order to commit an illegal act?

It's completely illogical.

Maybe he’s worried that the person on the door of the ladies toilets will ask to see his GRC certificate on the way in?


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[weecounty hibby]

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So what's the problem?

Why would a man who has the intent of committing sexual assault, wait 3 months to have their gender identification changed just so they can legally access a female space in order to commit an illegal act?

It's completely illogical.

It would be much easier and quicker for men to get a fake warrant card and a police uniform. I can't Labour this point enough, men attack women and will find ways of doing so. Drs, priests, ministers, police etc etc. In fact most attackers don't even bother getting dressed up or going to any bother at all. It's a nonsense argument to suggest that the party of the rape clause amongst others is the protector of women's rights. They have 100% seen a potential to have a go at the Scottish government and have gone for it. They have, in my opinion, seriously misread the situation

[Stairway 2 7]

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It would be much easier and quicker for men to get a fake warrant card and a police uniform. I can't Labour this point enough, men attack women and will find ways of doing so. Drs, priests, ministers, police etc etc. In fact most attackers don't even bother getting dressed up or going to any bother at all. It's a nonsense argument to suggest that the party of the rape clause amongst others is the protector of women's rights. They have 100% seen a potential to have a go at the Scottish government and have gone for it. They have, in my opinion, seriously misread the situation

It's not just about the act of rape its the destruction of the choice of women to have female only spaces. Do you think women should be able to have say rape crisis to be biological female only or disabled people have female only care or female only sport. If you answered yes to any some would call you anti trans which is mental but it's where the discussion has gone, black and white, one side or the other.

[Ozyhibby]

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It's not just about the act of rape its the destruction of the choice of women to have female only spaces. Do you think women should be able to have say rape crisis to be biological female only or disabled people have female only care or female only sport. If you answered yes to any some would call you anti trans which is mental but it's where the discussion has gone, black and white, one side or the other.

The act doesn’t affect this.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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The act doesn’t affect this.


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It does

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

[Ozyhibby]

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It does

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org...fing-for-msps/

The act does not change the spaces available to be accessed by people with a GRC.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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The act does not change the spaces available to be accessed by people with a GRC.


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It doesn't say that?

[Ozyhibby]

Monica Lennon hammering Starmer and Murray on radio Scotland just now.


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[Ozyhibby]

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It doesn't say that?

I’m sure it doesn’t list all the things it doesn’t do.


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[Hibrandenburg]

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Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator. There has to be some sort of checks and balances written in to the Act, which most agree is a good idea for the Trans community, just poorly executed.

We're not America and we don't consider amendments to be unamendable, if the legislation needs changing or another government wants it changed we can change it.

We need to keep some perspective here and remember that there's a proven bigger threat from predator males dressing in police uniforms than predator males dressing as women.

[weecounty hibby]

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It's not just about the act of rape its the destruction of the choice of women to have female only spaces. Do you think women should be able to have say rape crisis to be biological female only or disabled people have female only care or female only sport. If you answered yes to any some would call you anti trans which is mental but it's where the discussion has gone, black and white, one side or the other.

It's not black and white tho is it, no matter how much folk who are entrenched in the debate would like it to be. I 100% see both sides of the debate and its why I never engaged on this thread till recently. One post I replied to genuinely stated that Nicola Sturgeon had deliberately manufactured this as a grievance. She is clearly a better politician than anyone gives her credit for to get the 3 unionist parties to vote in favour of that. It is that kind of talk that has made this bill toxic. The loudest voices are the ones so entrenched that they refuse to see the other side, and even worse are the ones who see it only as a way of having a go at the SG.

[Ozyhibby]

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[He's here!]

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You tell me? I never said he did, I only said that Maugham doesn't. Dunlop was someone who demanded that the SG follow Kwartengs lead, I believe you may also have said similar, or he was moving to England so maybe he does. Be interested to hear your take on it.

I don't know any more than you about him. Somebody posted a link to his tweets earlier, I read them and I thought they seemed well reasoned, but I'm not a lawyer. How do you know Maugham doesn't have an agenda?

[Hibrandenburg]

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See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Beat me to it.

[ronaldo7]

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/htscotpol/status...b6M4Oxi9T3TeFA

Like I said earlier, there doesn’t seem to be much of a legal argument in what the UK has put out other than ‘we don’t like it’.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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It's not black and white tho is it, no matter how much folk who are entrenched in the debate would like it to be. I 100% see both sides of the debate and its why I never engaged on this thread till recently. One post I replied to genuinely stated that Nicola Sturgeon had deliberately manufactured this as a grievance. She is clearly a better politician than anyone gives her credit for to get the 3 unionist parties to vote in favour of that. It is that kind of talk that has made this bill toxic. The loudest voices are the ones so entrenched that they refuse to see the other side, and even worse are the ones who see it only as a way of having a go at the SG.

Exactly it's not black and white there's probably 5% of extremists on both sides and most are in the shades in the middle. I don't think sturgeon engineered it, I believe she the best most honest uk leader by a canter

[Ozyhibby]

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Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

I’m sure a judge will take that into account.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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I’m sure it doesn’t list all the things it doesn’t do.


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You should read it its balanced and not extreme, but doesn't go to your personal opinion so perhaps useless

[Ozyhibby]

Will he appear? Surely he couldn’t dodge this?


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[Hibrandenburg]

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She said it needs fixed in Scotland which suggests it was broken. Holyrood can still pass it with some amendments from what I understand.

Holyrood passed it with a clear majority amongst those elected by the people of Scotland to decide on their behalf. It's called democracy and if opinion changes then democracy can change it. You really can't stand the idea of the people of Scotland deciding matters for themselves, can you?

[weecounty hibby]

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I don't know any more than you about him. Somebody posted a link to his tweets earlier, I read them and I thought they seemed well reasoned, but I'm not a lawyer. How do you know Maugham doesn't have an agenda?

Maugham is also a lawyer, well reasoned argument? Or are you sticking with Dunlop? Maughams only agenda I have ever seen from him is fighting injustices and plain wrongdoing from government. Dunlop seems very much all about him, leaving Scotland because of tax, aye very good

[James310]

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See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman.

[marinello59]

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Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

Speared by Alistair Carmichael. That’s two Lib Dem’s I have name checked positively today, these really are weird times.


The whole document looks cobbled together. I’ll leave to the experts here to say whether it’s going to stand up in court or not but it looks weak to me.

[James310]

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Maugham is also a lawyer, well reasoned argument? Or are you sticking with Dunlop? Maughams only agenda I have ever seen from him is fighting injustices and plain wrongdoing from government. Dunlop seems very much all about him, leaving Scotland because of tax, aye very good

And clubbing foxes to death on Boxing Day wearing a Japanese kimono.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...a-fox-to-death

[marinello59]

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Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman and children.

Why would identifying as a woman give anybody increased access to children?

[ronaldo7]

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Speared by Alistair Carmichael. That’s two Lib Dem’s I have name checked positively today, these really are weird times.


The whole document looks cobbled together. I’ll leave to the experts here to say whether it’s going to stand up in court or not but it looks weak to me.

Both of Christine Jardines interventions were very good.

Lock me up now. 😂