just like her boss, has a wee laugh at herself thinking she's a jokey funny individual, but no one joins inQuote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
i expect peerages for her daughters
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just like her boss, has a wee laugh at herself thinking she's a jokey funny individual, but no one joins inQuote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
i expect peerages for her daughters
If the torys weren't a bunch of perpetual lying *******s this thread wouldn't exist.
If people didn't vote for them, knowing what they're like, there would be no issues of perceived victimisation.
I appreciate the diversity of opinion on here. Lets bear in mind, for some people in this country, their football teams are tied to their politics and entire world view. Thankfully, Hibs fans think for themselves. I like the idea that we can all sit next to each other following the same team, as well as having different political positions and our own views on all and any topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Brexit: I was torn. In the end I decided to support it. I still don't know if it's the right thing to have done. It is done now however and we have to make it work and do it with confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Independence: I'm against it. I don’t have any confidence in the SNP and many of their policies worry me. They want the state to be all powerful, and that for me is at odds with the Scottish mindset. They have fully embraced 'wokeness' and they seem intent on implementing its tenets everywhere. I have absolute confidence in Scottish people of course, and if we go it alone, we'll make it, I just don't favour the idea at this time. I genuinely think remaining in UK makes more sense. The SNP stirs up nationalist sentiment to encourage people to vote with their hearts not their heads.
Voting: I would prefer a Federal system - Scottish, Northern Irish(depending on what they decide to do), Welsh, Northern England and Southern England parliaments. I've voted for both of the big two over the years. Labour for me has completely abandoned the working class in favour of middle class champagne socialists who live in the main metropolitan centres. They treat working class men in particular with complete disdain. These are the very people who sneer and look down their noses at football fans. The Tories are a weird mix of old Conservative values oddly mixed with more socially liberal ideas. Boris Johnson is not a good PM. He cannot relate to the man in the street. He also looks at the working man with disdain. He’s out of touch. I am politically homeless. None of these parties offers anything that I am interested in. Politics in general has degraded to the level of pantomime. All parties now seem to think they have the right to rule and not serve. Ideally, a new party will emerge which is close to the centre. Common sense politics. Equal opportunities for all but no guarantee of equality of outcome. No more identity politics Each person is seen for what they are, a human being. No more references to race, gender or sexuality. You are just a person and you have the right to be treated with dignity and respect for that reason alone. No more house of lords. It has no place in a modern democracy. If you want be a politician or have political influence, work for it and encourage people to vote for you, as opposed to assuming the right by virtue of birth-right. No monarchy, it has to go, it's ridiculous. On some issues I'm right of centre and on others left of centre. I believe in a reasonable welfare state an support the NHS. On the other hand, I am concerned by the acceptance of the collectivist woke left. It has become cult like. Every area of our lives now comes under the scrutiny of the pc mob. If they say you’re a witch, you're a witch and anyone who defends you is a witch too. The SNP, Labour and to a lesser extend the Conservatives have embraced this. Do we all want to see an end to racism? Of course we do. Are there more than 2 genders? Of course there aren't. At this point, if someone decides they are offended, then someone has to be in the wrong and must be punished. I love the fact that the one thing we all have in common is Hibernian Football Club. We don't all have to agree on one set of ideas. Diversity of opinion should be encouraged. You are welcome to disagree as strongly as you like. I think this poster feels he is at odds with his fellow supporters because he has different from views from majority. We should welcome debate and allow people to say their piece. Dismissing people as ‘right wingers’ is petty name calling and too simplistic. Many people are not sure exactly who to vote for, have mixed views and don’t need to be Pidgeon-holed. Anyway, for crying out loud, another long post. I'll shut up now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
A really thoughtful post. I appreciate that you're open enough to say your views vary depending on the subject. I have said something similar to this poster. We may not agree on everything, but we can agree to disagree. I think it's important to hear alternative views. I am absolutely open to changing my mind on a subject if a better argument is put forward. I feel the same about Scotland now. There are things I love about it, but it other ways I feel we can be small minded and parochial. You are right to point our the difference in quality of life between those with the most and those with the least. Independence concerns me because I fear that the problems we have have will worsen. Of course you believe the opposite and I respect your right to have that point of view. It is not good enough that life expectancy in some areas of Glasgow is on par with African nations. Alcoholism, drug abuse and that old scourge of sectarianism still exist and have only improved marginally. I have lost faith in the main parties. I enjoy robust discussion. All too often though, discussions descend in to name calling, etc. Keep that open mind of yours and feel free to disagree with any time.
Sorry mate, I like you was at work but unable to get online. Just getting ready to go back in, some of us have to try and help with the levelling up :aok:. I'm not against Independence per say only as long as we want to be chained to the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
John Major absolutely roasted Boris Johnson and the coterie of crank hard Brexiteers surrounding him this morning in Radio 4. A moderate Tory shoving it to the parasite extremists currently running the country after hijacking that party. Really uplifting to hear.
Decent reply, you should post more often!Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
The point you make about 'wokeness' is a good one.
The whole issue around identity politics is just wrong. The SNP have fully embraced it though and want to run with it.
They'd get rid of the terms Mr & Mrs if they thought they could and have us all being Ms. Watch this space!
It's probably my biggest gripe against the SNP., along with Indy obv.
As for labour, totally agree about them being for posh socialists these days.
In the 90s I'd have been classed as Mondeo man and would probably have been a typical Blair voter. Not a chance in Hell i could vote Labour these days.
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Written by Tory Mathew Parris.
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We get the politicians and governments we deserve. Millions voted for them.
https://youtu.be/NhiIUFB6hIw
https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1456601290096660482?s=21
This is good from James O’Brien
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Missed this post earlier, thanks for the reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
Agree with most of what you say apart from the last sentence obviously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
I get confused sometimes about this term as it means something different every day.
What do you see as "wokeness" and why do you think it is wrong?
The fundamental issue the Tories have is they are creating a whole generation who having nothing to conserve. What use are the Conservatives then?
The middle class are being obliterated, wages aren't keeping pace with the cost of living, home ownership is stagnating whilst property prices continue to rise, the cost of renting is running out of control, education saddles young people in England with tens of thousands of pounds of debt.....
The current popularity that seems largely based on jingoism, yearning for a golden age that never existed and rampant exceptionalism screams last hurrah to me.
Good, and so depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Ok, I'll bite...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Sensitive subject but here goes.
After the killing of George Floyd, this forum, and social media everywhere across the world, was full of people posting about how bad it was and how much they hate racism.
On Instagram, everyone posted black squares to show their solidarity for example, stuff like that.
It was the main subject on the news and everybody was talking about it.
They were talking about it so much, it was like everyone was trying to outdo each other in the 'i think racism is bad' stakes.
That's the Woke part right there.
Fast forward to now.
When's the last time anyone on here even mentioned George Floyd? Totally forgotten about.
And yet, when it happened it was like we'd lost a family member going by some of the stuff you read on social media. My view, is that a lot of that outpouring of 'grief' was simply folk trying to show they hate racism to feel accepted. To show they're a better person than the next.
Where are the threads now with people talking about what they're doing differently in their lives since it happened? Why's no one keeping it front and centre anymore?
It's because it's not on the news. It's not fashionable this year.
Instead, everyone is posting about Green they are.
Woke.
Next year it will be something else.
What an utterly ridiculous thing to even say, never mind actually believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
I think that’s your version of the situation. To me, Equality, diversity and inclusion remains a major topic . In everyday life and in the workplace people are much more aware of prejudice and inequalities. Delighted that’s the case…Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Black Live matter fight goes on, and yes people are repurposing the term woke as a negative thing, but for me it remains a positive term. It was derived to note those who were becoming alert to the prejudices faced by many minorities. If you want to use it that way, then so be it…but it is a right if centre view of the term, which does nothing to recognise where is grew from.
We talk about current topics across all domains a lot on this forum. It’s driven by the news cycle. Just because we do so, doesn’t mean we care less about topics of last year, whether it’s about football, politics or prejudice….that’s just the nature of social forums…..
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It's something that seems to be on the increase. People getting really upset about hypothetical scenarios they have quite literally made up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
"Woke" is this era's "PC". A pejorative to criticise people with whom your social and cultural values don't align.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
I agree with you about the coming generation of young people. They are being denied the same opportunities my generation had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
It’s often said that as you grow older you are more likely to vote Tory as you start to accumulate some wealth in your property etc. That is not going to be such a factor soon as young people nowadays are not getting on the property ladder the way we managed to. They won’t have as much wealth to protect.
The situation will be the same for the Union. They may find that people don’t move to supporting the union as they get older because they don’t have mortgages that they think need protecting from change. Since 2014 the polls have moved in favour of independence to the point where it’s almost neck and neck. Is this due to the case being made for Indy cutting through or is it due to older voters dying off and being replaced by younger more pro Indy young people?
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Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I agree. But the use of the word these days is generally more negative than positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
What is Brexit if not identity politics? “We are England and we demand to be seen as the war winning, colonising, tubthumping world beating biggest country in the world, nobody likes us we don’t care”. It’s got **** all to do with reality.
Listening to people talk about how they’d prefer to be treated and addressed isn’t politics, it’s common decency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Just because it's not in the news and people aren't posting daily updates on their ongoing feelings about George Floyd doesn't mean they don't now think that racism is bad.
You are taking their words and making up your mind as to what their motives are and what they are thinking, which is a tricky thing to do on the internet. Of course people are going post about what's in the news currently, that is why it's called "news".
Are people not entitled to say what they want when they want? If we stopped that we'd might as well be living in Hong Kong etc etc.
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Staggering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Seems fair to remove money from education and healthcare if you don't vote to cover up corruption [emoji106]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...07f7df82ff.jpg
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My personal opinion of how Brexit happened was that a large number of Tory MPs panicked when they saw the rising popularity of UKIP and were afraid they'd lose their jobs to UKIP candidates, so were open to having a referendum purely to win over those same voters.
This backfired massively and is the reason that Johnson, who was the person appointed by the Conservatives to front the campaign, disappeared from view for what seemed like months and both him and Cameron left Theresa May to carry the can.
They are now led by this charlatan, a person that seems to have no morals and no genuine political viewpoints, only greed and self interest. He didn't appoint himself as Prime Minister, he was voted into his position as Prime Ministerial candidate by his fellow Conservative MPs.
His party appear to exist for nothing other than self interest, and the people who vote for them seem to share that self interest (going by the comments on here from Tory Voters).
Obviously, everybody has the right to vote for who they think serves their interests.. but surely you can also see why some of us find that more than a little distasteful?
My point is, why isn't it being talked about these days? Folk were talking about it like it was the most important thing in their lives - remember the huge demonstrations?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
I'd have thought that if it meant so much to people they might bring it up now and again. They don't though. So it appears they only cared about it when it was the 'in' thing to do.
Now, clearly this is a bit of a sweeping statement so it's not meant directly at you or anyone else on here, but that's what i think of when I think of woke.
It's not caring about the issue, of course people should care, it's shouting from the rooftops about how much you care.
I definitely use it in a negative way :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
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I bet this **** is first to bang the nations airwaves about benefit scroungers. But he’s encouraging and facilitating tax avoidance for a clique. Should be behind bars, not waiting for the inevitable peerage and after dinner speaking circuit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Not understanding your point here. It's perfectly natural that people will be more vocal in the immediate aftermath of an atrocious act. That doesn't mean they don't hold the same convictions when the fuss dies down.
You also didn't address the "freedom of speech" aspect.
Why is OK for bigots to have free speech as and when they want, allowed to them in case the country turns into a version of Hong Kong, but anti-bigots are to be mistrusted as somehow insincere when expressing themselves as and when they want?
Those who adhere to the cult of 'woke' do not allow anyone who's values don't align with their beliefs to even speak! Having people cancelled, fired, publicly shamed and prosecuted because they don't agree with you isn't very tolerant is it? PC and wokness are about forcing people to agree with things that are contrary to the truth. Failure to comply results in the aforementioned consequences. Why would anyone want to be part of that, unless they like controlling people?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Yes, we should be entitled to say what we want, absolutely. Wokeness however actively stops people from expressing any opinion which doesn't agree with their view of the world. That's the problem. You don't have the option of disagreeing with the well trained woke disciple. There is no room for diversity of opinion or healthy discussion in the world they are creating for us. The people of Hong Kong are under the thumb of people who have been practicing wokeness(i.e. communism) for a very long time. No matter how absurd the woke idea is, if you don't agree with it, you are shamed, cancelled, fired from you job or even prosecuted. The woke love to call people fascists. They are closest we have come to fascism since the second world war. Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say. Ask Dave Chappelle what he thinks. No more Shakespeare in schools. The Rolling Stones not 'allowed' to play Brown Sugar anymore. The list goes on and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Thanks for proving my point.😋Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
You've been here before haven't you? Lost count now.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
My boy is doing Shakespeare for his Nat 4s. Romeo and Juliet. Same as i did at school at 14 in the 80s.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
The Stones decided THEMSELVES to not do Brown Sugar ‘for awhile’ but will bring it back at some point. Even though it’s about raping female slaves you own.
So two blatant falsehoods already. These things haven’t been ‘cancelled’
In terms of ACTUAL political correctness that actually happens, the most prominent example is anyone appearing on the BBC two weeks before Remembrance Sunday being plastered in Haig poppies or they don’t appear. And anyone who encourages debate about their feelings about this particular festival gets the pitchfork and ducking stool treatment from the Mail and the Sun and gets actually cancelled.
There’s a kerfuffle going on at the moment around Yorkshire cricket and a player calling a teammate ‘pki’ repeatedly for years. What’s notable isn’t that it has become a story, but that YCC got away with dismissing the player’s formal complaints after a full investigation, on the rationale that it was ‘only banter’. They were brought to book kicking and screaming. It doesn’t feel like a world where we’re hyper sensitive about causing offence to me, it’s going in exactly the opposite direction. I don’t think you’ve got much to worry about.
Owen Patterson may end up on the after dinner speakers circuit but you can bet your bottom dollar he ends up in the house of lords first.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiber-nation
long term browser :wink:
the king corrupt one hasn't knocked back the idea of a peerage for paterson
imagine when Johnson is finally on his way out, he will load the House of gravy train with Tories :agree: won't be too long before there's more in the house of gravy than there is in the Chinese Assembly
Yes of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
As Dave Chappelle would say that is mostly on twitter, which is a place that doesn't actually exist.Quote:
...for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say.
You can be anti-bigotry without being part of a "mob" or imaginary mindset/"cult".
I'm working-class from Niddrie and my Mum taught me about bigot's, why bigotry is wrong and how to go about expressing any thoughts against it. We were brought up heathen with no religion to speak of but she was sickened at how her Catholic and Italian pals were treated. If you want to get rid of discussions on racism/sexism/misogyny and concentrate on human rights a good place to start would be getting rid of bigotry. Then we've got a clean slate.
If being woke means recognizing that racism exists(and has done for all of human history), agreeing that it's wrong(it's simply not in any way, shape or form fair) and choosing not to be racist(realising that we all need to be better), then I'm all for it. Effectively, this just means being a decent person. It's great to think that there will be a future where the colour of a persons skin, their ethnic backround or their country of origin won't determine how they are treated. Who would be against that?Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
However, when Dave Chappelle can't do his show, the Rolling Stones can't play "Brown Sugar" and I am forced to believe there are more than 2 genders (denying a fundamental fact about humanity), I'm note sure the woke world is a happy place to be. The woke don't allow anyone to disagree. There is no room for discussion. Every day, someone else if publicly shamed and/or cancelled. It's the modern day version of the Salem witch trials. It becomes more absurd by the day and I genuinely think it has all the hallmarks of a cult.
It's entirely possible to feel strongly about something whilst not discussing it all the time. On occasion there is an opportunity presented to make a point and it stands to reason that when the conversation is being had on a wider scale then you will make your voice heard.
Personally speaking I have always felt strongly about the pathetic conviction rates for sexual crimes up to and including rape. Further the treatment of and language around women who genuinelt believe themselves to have been victims of crime even when an acquittal is the outcome is something that concerns me. That is shaped by personal experiences in my own life. In recent years the cases involving people like Ched Evans, Alex Salmond and more recently tragically Sarah Everard have seen me be very vocal and visible with my viewpoint. I'll happily admit to shouting down people who use lazy tropes that are all too common when discussing these situations. Just because I am more vocal at these times doesn't mean I stop caring the rest of the time. I'm sure many people on this thread could give comparable examples.
The point above about being working class and from a scheme is a good one. I was brought up in Oxgangs in a working class fanilt. I learned from a young age that being racist, sexist, homophobic and so on was wrong. It's really no excuse and I'm not sure it's an excuse many people from such backgrounds make for themselves either.
There are more than 2 genders though. That's been accepted in various cultures for centuries, perhaps even millenia.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Unless you are conflating gender and biological sex?
Top post[emoji106]This atheist from Magdalene agrees[emoji6]Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
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In what way have I proved your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Is this just the same post you’ve made a few hours ago? I’ve pointed out you’re wrong about Brown Sugar already. Assuming this isn’t just a bot account why don’t you try and engage with that points I and others have made?Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Are there? Please elaborate. How many genders are there? How does does gender differ from biological sex? Lots of things have existed for millennia which are perverse; human sacrifice, polygamy, owning slaves to name just a few. The theory that there are more than 2 genders is not based in fact or reality. It is a political idea. Marxists decided that everyone has to be regarded is an equal in every way. They therefore created the idea the idea of gender neutrality. The woke claim gender is socially constructed. It's quite the opposite, gender roles are based on the typical traits and particular strengths which men and women have innately. That is to say, natural human behaviours which are not taught. The marxist invention of gender neutrality has been constructed to match their ideology. Everything must be altered to fit the marxist view. Of course, disagreeing is unacceptable. I honestly cannot believe how many of you have fallen for this. What happen to critical thinking? Just look at the world around you rather than blindly following a political idea. As a teenager growing up in Leith in the late 80's/ early 90s, I could never have imagined people thinking like this. That's not to say change didn't need to happen. It absolutely did. We all said things in those days we'd now be ashamed of. But seriously, it's gone too far. It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
I had to read Das Kapital a few times at uni. I can honestly say Marx had nothing to say whatsoever about ‘gender neutrality’. Lots of Marxists are very misogynistic and are as likely to have old fashioned ideas about sex and gender as right wingers, who are probably just as likely to be queer/trans/whatever as anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Maybe you’re confusing Marx with Mark from Trainspotting ‘One thousand years from now there'll be no guys and no girls, just ******s. Sounds great to me.’
What century are you posting from, if you don't mind me asking? :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
You could start by looking up hermaphrodite.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
Is there anyone worth voting for? I'm suggesting people should abstain from voting, but the current options are unappealing to say the least. I'm not sure how others feel, but I don't think I've ever been more disillusioned with politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
Seems to me like there exists a spectrum of genders, like the flag you see on Pride marches it shows a spectrum because that's where our genders lie. Two shades of that spectrum seem to be the most populated but there are other shades. If you learn to see that exists and respect that then taking up extreme views isn't necessary, whatever side of the debate they come from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Was that not Brexit?
Whilst Marx may not have necessarily promoted the idea, Marxists(those who took his ideas and ran with them) added 'gender neutrality' this to their list of 'must haves' for a truly equal society. Think of the poster with a women showing her bicep. How much further are we going to go with this idea? How many letters do add to LBGTQ? I can't say I've read Das Kapital. Feel free to call me out for criticising Marx when I haven't read his key piece of work. I'll take that on the chin. I can tell you that I have as much desire to read Das Kapital as I have to read Mein Kampf. The authors of both books and their ideas created misery, pain, imprisonment, suffering and death to millions. Two utterly poisonous regimes. The ideals behind both ideologies need to be consigned to history. That doesn't mean we forget about them. Doing so would only risk a repeat. They should be held up as examples of what not to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Yes there are.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
In Western thinking the idea of biological sex and gender being different constructs is a relatively recent discussion, certainly in mainstream thinking it found prominence among feminists in the 1970s.
There has been recognition of a 3rd (and 4th and 5th...)gender in various cultures for centuries as I have already stated. Polynesia, the Indian sub continent and South America being the most notable.
As for the difference between sex and gender the distinction of one being biological whilst the other is a social construct is not something I can attribute to Marx although I'm not that well read when it comes to old Karl so I may have missed it. I don't accept it's that difficult to see why multiple genders are possible even if we are accepting of the fact there are only 2 sexes (or 3 when you consider the 1.5% of people who are biologically intersex).
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...d95d03b1f03c48
Border Force seem to be falling out with Priti Patel. Apparently they are not keen on letting people drown at sea.
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That’s absolutely up to you what books to read, obviously. I just think you’re very uninformed about what ‘Marxists’ believe, and if you want to understand it’s probably a good idea to read about it. I read Mein Kampf and managed to avoid believing in the moral righteousness of a liebensraum for the German race so it IS possible to read a book without being won over by its ideas :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
That's going to open a can of worms 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
:faf: :faf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Stop reading out of date books.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21
Thank you. 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
I preferred when we were just looking to see if the Nasty party were still lying ********.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I've checked, they are.
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Also, Rosie the Riveter was the poster you’re referring to, it was from WW2 a campaign by the Americans to encourage women to do the jobs that men couldn’t do because they were busy fighting the Nazis. All it’s doing is showing a physically strongwoman, gender doesn’t come into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
You’re now confusing the wartime US Government with Marxism. Not really sure where we’re going from here…
The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.
There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.
Fair point. I can only imagine the contents of Mein Kampf are horrifying. Like reading the memoirs of a psychopath. You're obviously well read. I take my hat of to you for that. Your point is similar to what Aristotle said about being able to entertain an idea without accepting it. Morally, the idea of racial superiority is repugnant. Perhaps reading the chief proponent of that idea, gives an insight in to a mind that accepts the idea as not only being true, but morally justifiable. I am new here and I don't want to antagonise or get off side with anyone. After all, it's a football forum. I do enjoy debate though and I won't demand that anyone accept my point-of-view over their own. There are too many people doing that, and I strongly object to being forced to believe anything, particularly when not backed up by fact. If I'm guilty of that, please point it out. I will however hold to my beliefs unless I am convinced otherwise. I am absolutely open to being convinced otherwise if a better argument is presented.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Who knows? Remains to be seen. Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a little Englander or Scotlander. Yes, there are many who are flag waving nationalists and many who have unpleasant views, no question. Surely though you can understand that there are plenty who voted for it for rational reasons. There were arguments for both remaining and leaving. I was personally torn. It's happened now. People have to work together rather than pointing the figure. We need unity not division.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Fundamental truths are perennial. Inventing the idea that there are more than 2 genders does not make that idea true. The fact we are even having this conversation these days is mind boggling. The fact that most of you are going along with it is terrifying. What other new 'truths' will we be forced to believe in the coming years. God help us all.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
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https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...and-donate-3m/
£3m for a chance to make laws in UK. And people think we are a democracy?[emoji23]
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Where are the human rights in taking things in the direction of forced treatment?Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
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Mein Kempf is just Adolph snowflaking on about the Treaty of Versailles and whipping up misplaced grudges against peoples he took a personal dislike to. These days it would be lost in vast tonnage of Facebook slurry of a similar ilk.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
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Sorry but I was completely unaware.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
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If only Labour had delivered their promise to abolish it before they were seduced by the trough. And bowing to people with metal hats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I think feminists of the second and third waves would mostly take great offence to the suggestion that their radicalism and their ideology is in some way derivative from either Marxism as a doctrine or from Marx, a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Feminists at every iteration seem perfectly capable of assessing the challenges faced by women by dint of their own experiences, their own political and social responses to their circumstances and with a fairly comprehensive set of left through to right wing political persuasions sitting behind that feminism. Dragging Marxism into this is an unlikely and I think unsustainable position.
No treatment should ever be forced on anyone against their will. Treatment for any issue should only ever be voluntary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Your last paragraph could have been written about gay men in the 70s. Using language like "childhood trauma " , "treatment " "delusion" and " healthier thinking " smacks of the horrors of conversion therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
I tend to stay away from these conversations as I'll admit my knowledge on gender/sex is limited, but that last paragraph is a shocker.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
It's entirely compassion free and doesn't have any place in the 21st century.
Sectioning someone?Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
J
Aye, the real name of the poster is Marty McFly.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Now, I occasionally object to newspaper articles that portray (what I feel) are a very warped sense of what is and is not acceptable, but that just comes over as a reactionary rant and is full of innacuracies, e.g. Shakespeare and Brown Sugar
.
On the last paragraph, what type of treatment do you advocate for someone who is transgender ( not intersex)? Is it possibly the same treatment that you would advocate for gay men or women? Are you saying that they are not thinking healthy? What is healthy thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
RE the last paragraph - where did complete your psychology and/or medical degree? I'm curious as what you are saying goes completely against current thinking from trained professionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Gender dysphoria is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association to diagnose mental conditions.
Rather than a terrifying fear of "wokeness", my biggest issue with our current age is that every Tom, Dick and Harry on the internet has decided, without any actual investigation, that they know more than the collective knowledge of tens of thousands of professionals who have spent their lives dedicated to a particular subject.
Michael Gove said it best "we've had enough of experts". Sadly that is true. The average punter now thinks they know more than scientists about climate change, medical professionals about gender, and racism than those experiencing it.
And that worries the hell out of me more than a few on Twitter getting a annoyed.
Why waste time with a long term goal? Just send them straight to the death camps.Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Your posts are vile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I think you guys have all taken his point the wrong way.
Think for a moment of some mental health illnesses, and our thoughts on them in the past.
I’ll maybe be a bit clumsy with my language here but I’ll try and explain.
If you hand a relative that was going a bit senile, or ‘mad’ , that kept telling you all that he wanted to live in a wardrobe because of the fairies that come for him in the night, we wouldn’t go straight to “ok Uncle Bob, no problem, here’s a pillow and duvet for you to get comfy”.
We would look to get him some help.
I think the poster is trying to suggest, is that if someone feels trapped in the body of someone of the opposite sex, that’s a mental issue, and maybe they need help in a similar way?
The thought that teenagers or younger still can decide on their gender just doesn’t seem right.
I don’t think his post in any way can be compared to conversion therapy.
Is this what you believe?Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
This is you, this is:Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
1. "There are only two genders."
2. "There are a tiny number of people who are intersex."
3. "There are only two genders."
It must be great to have no problem whatsoever in holding completely contradictory 'facts' inside your head. It's not so great when you say them out loud, to other people.
I don’t know. I don’t know enough about the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
There's a whole thread on the subject not that far down with lots of information.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
That's kind of what I took from it and think some of the reactions have been a bit over the top.
Some of the faux-compassionate "opinions" on this thread regarding trans people make me genuinely sad, particularly the suggestion that it is a mental disorder that needs to be cured (i.e. just like the attitudes to gay people historically); my trans friends have to put up with this on a day-to-day basis from all angles and I can't imagine what it must be like for them.
I've had to put a number of people on ignore already; I would kindly request that this discussion be moved to that to the thread we already have for it so I don't have to see this again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diclonius
Yeah, TBF, it is quite a tangent from the topic of The Tories.
I think that's a good opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diclonius
The main mental health issues that Trans people face are imposed on them. There is no cure as you say, there is also no treatment regardless of what someone suggests.
For some reason most people think that trans means wanting to transition from male to female, however you have Elliott Page, formerly Ellen Page, and a friend in kirkcaldy who changed their name from Amy to Jude a few weeks ago. These are not what people generally think.
All the talk is about men wanting to be known as women, but that's not always the case.
Is that not the whole point of "The Culture Wars"? If we are at odds with these discussions, which seem to be aligned to left versus right then we aren't discussing the traditional left versus right subject - Economics. I'm guilty of being sucked in just as much as anyone btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
Who let the 1970s in?Quote:
Originally Posted by FromLeithtoNZ
Soooooo....
....the Tories, questionable parentage or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diclonius
Your quite right, off to the other thread it should go.
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