Tories are still lying *******s

[Ozyhibby]

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The fundamental issue the Tories have is they are creating a whole generation who having nothing to conserve. What use are the Conservatives then?

The middle class are being obliterated, wages aren't keeping pace with the cost of living, home ownership is stagnating whilst property prices continue to rise, the cost of renting is running out of control, education saddles young people in England with tens of thousands of pounds of debt.....

The current popularity that seems largely based on jingoism, yearning for a golden age that never existed and rampant exceptionalism screams last hurrah to me.

I agree with you about the coming generation of young people. They are being denied the same opportunities my generation had.
It’s often said that as you grow older you are more likely to vote Tory as you start to accumulate some wealth in your property etc. That is not going to be such a factor soon as young people nowadays are not getting on the property ladder the way we managed to. They won’t have as much wealth to protect.
The situation will be the same for the Union. They may find that people don’t move to supporting the union as they get older because they don’t have mortgages that they think need protecting from change. Since 2014 the polls have moved in favour of independence to the point where it’s almost neck and neck. Is this due to the case being made for Indy cutting through or is it due to older voters dying off and being replaced by younger more pro Indy young people?


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[hibsbollah]

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"Woke" is this era's "PC". A pejorative to criticise people with whom your social and cultural values don't align.

Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

I agree. But the use of the word these days is generally more negative than positive.

[Northernhibee]

What is Brexit if not identity politics? “We are England and we demand to be seen as the war winning, colonising, tubthumping world beating biggest country in the world, nobody likes us we don’t care”. It’s got **** all to do with reality.

Listening to people talk about how they’d prefer to be treated and addressed isn’t politics, it’s common decency.

[Kato]

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Ok, I'll bite...

Sensitive subject but here goes.

After the killing of George Floyd, this forum, and social media everywhere across the world, was full of people posting about how bad it was and how much they hate racism.

On Instagram, everyone posted black squares to show their solidarity for example, stuff like that.

It was the main subject on the news and everybody was talking about it.

They were talking about it so much, it was like everyone was trying to outdo each other in the 'i think racism is bad' stakes.

That's the Woke part right there.

Fast forward to now.

When's the last time anyone on here even mentioned George Floyd? Totally forgotten about.

And yet, when it happened it was like we'd lost a family member going by some of the stuff you read on social media. My view, is that a lot of that outpouring of 'grief' was simply folk trying to show they hate racism to feel accepted. To show they're a better person than the next.

Where are the threads now with people talking about what they're doing differently in their lives since it happened? Why's no one keeping it front and centre anymore?

It's because it's not on the news. It's not fashionable this year.

Instead, everyone is posting about Green they are.

Woke.

Next year it will be something else.

Just because it's not in the news and people aren't posting daily updates on their ongoing feelings about George Floyd doesn't mean they don't now think that racism is bad.

You are taking their words and making up your mind as to what their motives are and what they are thinking, which is a tricky thing to do on the internet. Of course people are going post about what's in the news currently, that is why it's called "news".

Are people not entitled to say what they want when they want? If we stopped that we'd might as well be living in Hong Kong etc etc.

[Ozyhibby]

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[Northernhibee]

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Staggering.

[hibsbollah]

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I agree. But the use of the word these days is generally more negative than positive.

Definitely.

[Callum_62]

Seems fair to remove money from education and healthcare if you don't vote to cover up corruption

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[Keith_M]

My personal opinion of how Brexit happened was that a large number of Tory MPs panicked when they saw the rising popularity of UKIP and were afraid they'd lose their jobs to UKIP candidates, so were open to having a referendum purely to win over those same voters.

This backfired massively and is the reason that Johnson, who was the person appointed by the Conservatives to front the campaign, disappeared from view for what seemed like months and both him and Cameron left Theresa May to carry the can.

They are now led by this charlatan, a person that seems to have no morals and no genuine political viewpoints, only greed and self interest. He didn't appoint himself as Prime Minister, he was voted into his position as Prime Ministerial candidate by his fellow Conservative MPs.

His party appear to exist for nothing other than self interest, and the people who vote for them seem to share that self interest (going by the comments on here from Tory Voters).



Obviously, everybody has the right to vote for who they think serves their interests.. but surely you can also see why some of us find that more than a little distasteful?

[WhileTheChief..]

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Just because it's not in the news and people aren't posting daily updates on their ongoing feelings about George Floyd doesn't mean they don't now think that racism is bad.

You are taking their words and making up your mind as to what their motives are and what they are thinking, which is a tricky thing to do on the internet. Of course people are going post about what's in the news currently, that is why it's called "news".

Are people not entitled to say what they want when they want? If we stopped that we'd might as well be living in Hong Kong etc etc.

My point is, why isn't it being talked about these days? Folk were talking about it like it was the most important thing in their lives - remember the huge demonstrations?

I'd have thought that if it meant so much to people they might bring it up now and again. They don't though. So it appears they only cared about it when it was the 'in' thing to do.

Now, clearly this is a bit of a sweeping statement so it's not meant directly at you or anyone else on here, but that's what i think of when I think of woke.

It's not caring about the issue, of course people should care, it's shouting from the rooftops about how much you care.

[WhileTheChief..]

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Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

I definitely use it in a negative way

[Ozyhibby]

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[hibsbollah]

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I bet this **** is first to bang the nations airwaves about benefit scroungers. But he’s encouraging and facilitating tax avoidance for a clique. Should be behind bars, not waiting for the inevitable peerage and after dinner speaking circuit.

[Kato]

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My point is, why isn't it being talked about these days? Folk were talking about it like it was the most important thing in their lives - remember the huge demonstrations?

I'd have thought that if it meant so much to people they might bring it up now and again. They don't though. So it appears they only cared about it when it was the 'in' thing to do.

Now, clearly this is a bit of a sweeping statement so it's not meant directly at you or anyone else on here, but that's what i think of when I think of woke.

It's not caring about the issue, of course people should care, it's shouting from the rooftops about how much you care.

Not understanding your point here. It's perfectly natural that people will be more vocal in the immediate aftermath of an atrocious act. That doesn't mean they don't hold the same convictions when the fuss dies down.

You also didn't address the "freedom of speech" aspect.

Why is OK for bigots to have free speech as and when they want, allowed to them in case the country turns into a version of Hong Kong, but anti-bigots are to be mistrusted as somehow insincere when expressing themselves as and when they want?

[FromLeithtoNZ]

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"Woke" is this era's "PC". A pejorative to criticise people with whom your social and cultural values don't align.

Those who adhere to the cult of 'woke' do not allow anyone who's values don't align with their beliefs to even speak! Having people cancelled, fired, publicly shamed and prosecuted because they don't agree with you isn't very tolerant is it? PC and wokness are about forcing people to agree with things that are contrary to the truth. Failure to comply results in the aforementioned consequences. Why would anyone want to be part of that, unless they like controlling people?

[FromLeithtoNZ]

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Just because it's not in the news and people aren't posting daily updates on their ongoing feelings about George Floyd doesn't mean they don't now think that racism is bad.

You are taking their words and making up your mind as to what their motives are and what they are thinking, which is a tricky thing to do on the internet. Of course people are going post about what's in the news currently, that is why it's called "news".

Are people not entitled to say what they want when they want? If we stopped that we'd might as well be living in Hong Kong etc etc.

Yes, we should be entitled to say what we want, absolutely. Wokeness however actively stops people from expressing any opinion which doesn't agree with their view of the world. That's the problem. You don't have the option of disagreeing with the well trained woke disciple. There is no room for diversity of opinion or healthy discussion in the world they are creating for us. The people of Hong Kong are under the thumb of people who have been practicing wokeness(i.e. communism) for a very long time. No matter how absurd the woke idea is, if you don't agree with it, you are shamed, cancelled, fired from you job or even prosecuted. The woke love to call people fascists. They are closest we have come to fascism since the second world war. Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say. Ask Dave Chappelle what he thinks. No more Shakespeare in schools. The Rolling Stones not 'allowed' to play Brown Sugar anymore. The list goes on and on and on.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Those who adhere to the cult of 'woke' do not allow anyone who's values don't align with their beliefs to even speak! Having people cancelled, fired, publicly shamed and prosecuted because they don't agree with you isn't very tolerant is it? PC and wokness are about forcing people to agree with things that are contrary to the truth. Failure to comply results in the aforementioned consequences. Why would anyone want to be part of that, unless they like controlling people?

Thanks for proving my point.😋

[Hiber-nation]

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Those who adhere to the cult of 'woke' do not allow anyone who's values don't align with their beliefs to even speak! Having people cancelled, fired, publicly shamed and prosecuted because they don't agree with you isn't very tolerant is it? PC and wokness are about forcing people to agree with things that are contrary to the truth. Failure to comply results in the aforementioned consequences. Why would anyone want to be part of that, unless they like controlling people?

You've been here before haven't you? Lost count now.

[hibsbollah]

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Yes, we should be entitled to say what we want, absolutely. Wokeness however actively stops people from expressing any opinion which doesn't agree with their view of the world. That's the problem. You don't have the option of disagreeing with the well trained woke disciple. There is no room for diversity of opinion or healthy discussion in the world they are creating for us. The people of Hong Kong are under the thumb of people who have been practicing wokeness(i.e. communism) for a very long time. No matter how absurd the woke idea is, if you don't agree with it, you are shamed, cancelled, fired from you job or even prosecuted. The woke love to call people fascists. They are closest we have come to fascism since the second world war. Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say. Ask Dave Chappelle what he thinks. No more Shakespeare in schools. The Rolling Stones not 'allowed' to play Brown Sugar anymore. The list goes on and on and on.

My boy is doing Shakespeare for his Nat 4s. Romeo and Juliet. Same as i did at school at 14 in the 80s.

The Stones decided THEMSELVES to not do Brown Sugar ‘for awhile’ but will bring it back at some point. Even though it’s about raping female slaves you own.

So two blatant falsehoods already. These things haven’t been ‘cancelled’
In terms of ACTUAL political correctness that actually happens, the most prominent example is anyone appearing on the BBC two weeks before Remembrance Sunday being plastered in Haig poppies or they don’t appear. And anyone who encourages debate about their feelings about this particular festival gets the pitchfork and ducking stool treatment from the Mail and the Sun and gets actually cancelled.

There’s a kerfuffle going on at the moment around Yorkshire cricket and a player calling a teammate ‘pki’ repeatedly for years. What’s notable isn’t that it has become a story, but that YCC got away with dismissing the player’s formal complaints after a full investigation, on the rationale that it was ‘only banter’. They were brought to book kicking and screaming. It doesn’t feel like a world where we’re hyper sensitive about causing offence to me, it’s going in exactly the opposite direction. I don’t think you’ve got much to worry about.

[degenerated]

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I bet this **** is first to bang the nations airwaves about benefit scroungers. But he’s encouraging and facilitating tax avoidance for a clique. Should be behind bars, not waiting for the inevitable peerage and after dinner speaking circuit.

Owen Patterson may end up on the after dinner speakers circuit but you can bet your bottom dollar he ends up in the house of lords first.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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You've been here before haven't you? Lost count now.

long term browser

[cabbageandribs1875]

the king corrupt one hasn't knocked back the idea of a peerage for paterson


imagine when Johnson is finally on his way out, he will load the House of gravy train with Tories won't be too long before there's more in the house of gravy than there is in the Chinese Assembly

[Kato]

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Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy ....

Yes of course.

...for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say.

As Dave Chappelle would say that is mostly on twitter, which is a place that doesn't actually exist.

You can be anti-bigotry without being part of a "mob" or imaginary mindset/"cult".

I'm working-class from Niddrie and my Mum taught me about bigot's, why bigotry is wrong and how to go about expressing any thoughts against it. We were brought up heathen with no religion to speak of but she was sickened at how her Catholic and Italian pals were treated. If you want to get rid of discussions on racism/sexism/misogyny and concentrate on human rights a good place to start would be getting rid of bigotry. Then we've got a clean slate.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

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Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

If being woke means recognizing that racism exists(and has done for all of human history), agreeing that it's wrong(it's simply not in any way, shape or form fair) and choosing not to be racist(realising that we all need to be better), then I'm all for it. Effectively, this just means being a decent person. It's great to think that there will be a future where the colour of a persons skin, their ethnic backround or their country of origin won't determine how they are treated. Who would be against that?

However, when Dave Chappelle can't do his show, the Rolling Stones can't play "Brown Sugar" and I am forced to believe there are more than 2 genders (denying a fundamental fact about humanity), I'm note sure the woke world is a happy place to be. The woke don't allow anyone to disagree. There is no room for discussion. Every day, someone else if publicly shamed and/or cancelled. It's the modern day version of the Salem witch trials. It becomes more absurd by the day and I genuinely think it has all the hallmarks of a cult.

[Pretty Boy]

It's entirely possible to feel strongly about something whilst not discussing it all the time. On occasion there is an opportunity presented to make a point and it stands to reason that when the conversation is being had on a wider scale then you will make your voice heard.

Personally speaking I have always felt strongly about the pathetic conviction rates for sexual crimes up to and including rape. Further the treatment of and language around women who genuinelt believe themselves to have been victims of crime even when an acquittal is the outcome is something that concerns me. That is shaped by personal experiences in my own life. In recent years the cases involving people like Ched Evans, Alex Salmond and more recently tragically Sarah Everard have seen me be very vocal and visible with my viewpoint. I'll happily admit to shouting down people who use lazy tropes that are all too common when discussing these situations. Just because I am more vocal at these times doesn't mean I stop caring the rest of the time. I'm sure many people on this thread could give comparable examples.

The point above about being working class and from a scheme is a good one. I was brought up in Oxgangs in a working class fanilt. I learned from a young age that being racist, sexist, homophobic and so on was wrong. It's really no excuse and I'm not sure it's an excuse many people from such backgrounds make for themselves either.

[Pretty Boy]

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If being woke means recognizing that racism exists(and has done for all of human history), agreeing that it's wrong(it's simply not in any way, shape or form fair) and choosing not to be racist(realising that we all need to be better), then I'm all for it. Effectively, this just means being a decent person. It's great to think that there will be a future where the colour of a persons skin, their ethnic backround or their country of origin won't determine how they are treated. Who would be against that?

However, when Dave Chappelle can't do his show, the Rolling Stones can't play "Brown Sugar" and I am forced to believe there are more than 2 genders (denying a fundamental fact about humanity), I'm note sure the woke world is a happy place to be. The woke don't allow anyone to disagree. There is no room for discussion. Every day, someone else if publicly shamed and/or cancelled. It's the modern day version of the Salem witch trials. It becomes more absurd by the day and I genuinely think it has all the hallmarks of a cult.

There are more than 2 genders though. That's been accepted in various cultures for centuries, perhaps even millenia.

Unless you are conflating gender and biological sex?

[Bostonhibby]

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Yes of course.



As Dave Chappelle would say that is mostly on twitter, which is a place that doesn't actually exist.

You can be anti-bigotry without being part of a "mob" or imaginary mindset/"cult".

I'm working-class from Niddrie and and my Mum taught me about bigot's, why bigotry is wrong and how to go about expressing any thoughts against it. We were brought up heathen with no religion to speak of but she was sickened at how her Catholic and Italian pals were treated. If you want to get rid of discussions on racism/sexism/misogyny and concentrate on human rights a good place to start would be getting rid of bigotry. Then we've got a clean slate.

Top postThis atheist from Magdalene agrees

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[FromLeithtoNZ]

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Thanks for proving my point.😋

In what way have I proved your point?

[hibsbollah]

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If being woke means recognizing that racism exists(and has done for all of human history), agreeing that it's wrong(it's simply not in any way, shape or form fair) and choosing not to be racist(realising that we all need to be better), then I'm all for it. Effectively, this just means being a decent person. It's great to think that there will be a future where the colour of a persons skin, their ethnic backround or their country of origin won't determine how they are treated. Who would be against that?

However, when Dave Chappelle can't do his show, the Rolling Stones can't play "Brown Sugar" and I am forced to believe there are more than 2 genders (denying a fundamental fact about humanity), I'm note sure the woke world is a happy place to be. The woke don't allow anyone to disagree. There is no room for discussion. Every day, someone else if publicly shamed and/or cancelled. It's the modern day version of the Salem witch trials. It becomes more absurd by the day and I genuinely think it has all the hallmarks of a cult.

Is this just the same post you’ve made a few hours ago? I’ve pointed out you’re wrong about Brown Sugar already. Assuming this isn’t just a bot account why don’t you try and engage with that points I and others have made?