They would, though....:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack
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They would, though....:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaugOn steps of Hampden, Raith Rovers chairman Turnbull Hutton says the game is corrupt. Says he's been lied to, threatened and bullied. #SFL
[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283156]I hope that regardless of how things pan out they do come back with a verdict as it allows Scottish football to resolve the future with a clear understanding of what wrong doings were done - even if the club that did the wrongs no longer legally exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
I suspect that the judgement is known considering how long ago the appeal hearing was, and they are waiting strategically. If HMRC wins/won, the message is pretty clear to other clubs, If HMRC lost/lose the case, it may be irrelevant to Rangers, but would be in the interests of HMRC to never mention this again. Which is kind of whats happening now..
This isn't something that has just happened, it's been going on in the media (papers and TV) for decades, these non stories sell the product and as the ugly sisters have the majority of support in this country it will continue forever, it really annoys me when STV Edinburgh start chirping on about them rather than clubs in the East of Scotland first, I've emailed and complained plenty but the usual stock reply comes back.
Traynor is an erse and he knows it, his fawning over the huns is boak inducing but as said it sells the product, they can drag former players out from all over the world to comment on the Ibrox fiasco but wouldn't and couldn't care less about the rest of Scottish football or what goes on in it.
This will never end in my opinion so we better get used to it.
That would be all well and good if certain executives (and some clubs?) from the SPL weren't attempting to bribe the SFL clubs with tv money and threaten to cut them off outside SPL2 if they vote no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve20
The smaller clubs are run by businessmen who have football at the front of their thoughts. Regan and Doncaster are businessmen who have themselves at the front of their thoughts. I can see a stitch up coming and R+D leaving with big handshakes, and the new people coming in, unable to comment about the old regime or undo the changes.
It's the first good thing to come out of the 'Clayhool' for many a year and 10/10 to their board for flicking the V to the proHun media and SPL bully boys.
If Doncaster in particular can leave by any means, it can only be a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by NORTHERNHIBBY
A hard kick up the arse on the way out would most appropriate.
Instead of pursuing Murray, Green etc and hounding Lowell for Celtc's opinion on Sevco, the succulent lamb brigade put the boot into the other clubs with half truths and supposition about how we're all doomed if we don't bow down to new Rangers.
Traynor's comments about Hibs 'getting rid' of Billy Brown is a case in point. I don't buy tabloids but sadly many people do and believe what is written.
Thankfully sites like rangers tax case and Paul McConville's blog put these hacks to shame.
Prepare for anti-non OF stories to increase if sevco are not allowed in to Div1.
Excellent. So far the diddy clubs are coming out best in all of this, and the diddier the better. (We are less diddy and it remains to be seen exactly how well we come out of it.)Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
[QUOTE=rcarter1;3283195]The tax tribunal and the 'double contracts' investigation are two separate but connected issues. It's possible that Rangers broke tax laws without breaking the SFA/SPL rules regarding payments to players and vice versa, so the halting of the tax tribunal doesn't mean that the SPL investigation should end. I agree that the latter should continue if only to assess whether any honours need to be annulled.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
The tax tribunal was about establishing the quantum of tax that RFC should pay rather than their innocence or guilt and that required examination of each individual case. That's not really worth it when there's no-one to provide information or argue Rangers' side - if I'm right about the tax advisers no longer being retained, but if it was nearly done and dusted they might finish it off in the interests of completeness (is that a word?). There won't be any urgency though. The SPL investigation should be easier though, they only have to establish innocence or guilt and it only really needs one hidden contract to do that. On the face of it Dodds and Boumsong have already provided enough evidence in their public pronouncements.
Twitter reports seem to be suggesting that the SFL clubs are coming out strongly against sevco to sfl1. I'm guessing the SPL chairmen are seeing this coming, hence the reports of late discussions to change the SPL vote to yes.
All those SPL clubs only made those statements last week because they had been told that Sevco would go to SFL1 and they could wash their hands of it and preach about sporting integrity. Now it's not working out we'll see what their true opinions are.
Unfortunately I fear Rod is down there with Regan and Donkey as the most responsible and worst of them in all this. The whole thing is disgusting. SFL3 for Sevco or else Scottish football becomes damaged beyond repair.
Quite an accusation! Look forward to hearing what he says to substantiate this. With such an illustrious first name I'd expect nothing but integrity :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
:not worth Absolutely superb. Have a read at that Keevins, Traynor and all the other hun apologists.Quote:
Originally Posted by flash
Irrespective of the size, stature, history and resources of the club filling the vacancy, the opportunity exists for that club to find their way back to their natural tier in the league structure in a fair and equitable manner while being encouraged to trade and exist successfully within the means at their disposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee
Well done Stranraer and that from a club in a town where there are more huns per head of population than anything else!
Look at it this way, excluding the Hootsmon, the tabloid papers and the Herald are all Glasgow based and so it will always be easier to report on something "a few doors down" than something 40 miles, 120 miles etc. away.
From experience in the north of Ireland these things are insidious and often unnoticed simply because they have 'always been' or certainly 'always been within living memory'. I'd imagine for over 40 years anyway but possibly longer the Old Firm has been the dominant side show in Scottish media. Unfortunately what has become clear is that although they are happy to report on both sides of the 'Old Firm' when it suits the fat poltroons who spout out the 'stories' for each day's edition, once the Huns started getting into deeper water than usual back in February we've had to put up with a whole farmyard's worth of sh*t being peddaled by these Wedgie-centric hacks. Those who operated behind a veil of 'Old Firm-ness' but who were actually Huns or pro-Huns have, sometime around mid-April, let their disguise fall away completely, spouting openly pro-Hun drivel. Celtic fans don't care because they see themselves as being the ultimate winners of the fantastic Billy v's Tim scrap and so they are currently seeing the world through green and white tinted specs. If nothing else this whole farce has shown just how many people in the media and Scotland in general have a bit of bigoted Hunnery hidden in them and also Scotland is clearly as corrupt as places like Italy and some African countries which is plain embarrassing.
If the bluenoses want to get any sort of credibility back they should just say
Ok we will go in to div 3 and do what everybody else has to do
Just stop bleating with yer sob and wasn't our fault stories...
Have you not figured out yet that you were right about one thing for all these years ... Yer song tha says
'We are rangers no-one likes us'
See yiz
GIRFUY
The quotes from Hutton in the BBC Football report on Saturday (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18656012) clearly implied theats and bullying, I was amazing that more wasn't made of it - glad to see he's turned it up a notch.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Doncaster doing a presentation to the SFL now, why? He's in charge of the SPL, whats he got to do with the SFL?:confused:
Le mot juste:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lungo--Drom
Three things .
1. Gordon Brown the horse racing guy told me a story once when he worked for the Daily Record .There was a good Hamilton meeting on one night and Brown offered to write up a feature for the paper . "No room for it" was the response from the editor . "Ally McCoist is going and probably some other Old Firm players" said Brown . "Take a photographer with you" said the editor without blinking.
2. A decent sized paper or even a few will go to the wall in the next five years . Print media is on the way out and this smells like self preservation.
3. News International hacked a murdered teenage girls phone . Read that last sentence back .
Obviously a 'taig', or so I read about everyone who has a negative view of rangers. Can anyone enlighten me on what a taig is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie Reid
I guess some sort of Irish catholic?
******s.
He should be standing apologising for the mess and then he should be tendering his resignation.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
REceived a copy blog which claims that SFA knew Rangers were not eligible to have a FIFA licence next year- as per Senior source in Hampden. It goes on to raise the question-
If SPL/SFL/SFA believe Rangers need special treatment as is demonstrated by the parachute suggestion, how long have they known about Rangers problems and covered up for them (for the benefit of the game)? Hints that this could be C4s story today
Perhaps he has been set up by the SPL clubs.....Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
Neil Doncaster tells sfl that Sky, Espn and sport 5 deals at threat as contracts require RFC in spl in 2013/14 value 17.35 mill
Imagine signing up for that deal in the first place?
I'm going to be annoyed if they enter the 1st division, but I'll never walk away from Scottish football... no matter how bad it gets.
Anyone fancy putting together a breakdown of the media in Scotland and put them into Good / Average / Bad categories ?
You could do this for reporters on radio/twitter/t.v - this Rangers farce has definitely shown up a few :agree:
Comical Neilly.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
Well done to all the SFL clubs intending to reject the proposal you have earned a load of respect from me and i assume many others.
Shows the corruption in the game, as it proves that - even if they were the worst team in the league - Rangers would never be relegated.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
The precedent was set with Airdrieonians, Livingston and Gretna.
The Rangers should apply for Division 3. Anything else would be a sham and an embarrassment.
:agree: Utter disgrace.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
Wonder how many millions will be lost if nobody wants to watch a rigged sport any more?
The STV news Edinburgh is a joke.
And now for your local news. Camera pans to outside ibex with the latest developments on rangers. :faf:
there should be more to report on scottish fitba as a whole with the huns in div 3. a chance to learn more about the smaller teams and towns they play in
When was that deal signed - was it under Donkey's time in charge of the SPL? If so, he needs to tender his resignation. This week.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...ers-situation/
I have really grown to like several of the SFL clubs recently with their stance against what's going on here :agree:
I suspect we may be about to find out as when the SFL clubs say no I fully expect a volte face from spl and a warm welcome offered to sevco fcQuote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Quote:
Originally Posted by VickMackie
I noticed that as well, they have the audacity to call it news from Edinburgh and the East.
Fife is very OF focussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by IFONLY
:agree: :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Filled Rolls
I thought Sky had come out and said nothing's going to change anyway regardless of where the new club play ? :confused:
Don't think so. It's gone too far now - fans won't tolerate that degree of cynicism imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
:agree: The assumption that an understrength Newco will automatically win promotion shows total contempt for the SFL1 clubs as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Filled Rolls
East Fife say 'No' ..... according to todays Sportday live thing on BBC sport website.Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Hibee
FOOTBALL
Scottish second division side East Fife have released a statement stating their belief newco Rangers should enter Scotland's third division at the start of the season.
"The board of directors of East Fife FC, however, is unanimous in its view that we shall not support any integrated plan that in our view compromises sporting integrity by involving the admission of any 'newco' directly into Division One," a statement on the club's website reads. "Any 'newco' must follow the normal application route into the bottom tier."
Ha, nice picture. Point well made and I know you are right, which is why I said justice will be how I feel when I see it, or when the dust settles. But, I am drawn to the dramatic side of this, can't help it and it is getting quite emotional. In a pretty complex and grey world this issue is allowing football fans in Scotland to stand on a clear platform of doing the right thing, or wanting the right thing and 'justice' to come to pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Filled Rolls
We may end up accepting grudgingly over time a grey, middle ground outcome. But from here it looks like a fudge and because we see an alternative is less appealing than it ever was.
But it's always nice to finish with a dramatic flurry, so ...
The next 24 hours will determine whether I share my love of the Hibernian experience with my grandchildren or not.
But if we sign Deano I'm ****ing there! :)
Believe it to be words to that effect but don't have a direct quote. Doncaster is scaremongering - we would require a direct quote from Sky to confirm their position. However, he does appear to be lying as Sky won't want to lose the Scottish subscriptions in any circumstance and would more than likely continue to support Scottish football.Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Hibee
IF Sky suggested differently they would be pretty much saying to viewers - "the sport we show is rigged."
I said this right at the start when ND banded about figures without backing up his claim. Show us the contract, the small print, and get a statement from Sky to back up your claims Neil ?Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Hibee
Good old STV. Spinning the story again, and ignoring the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newry Hibs
East Fife say ANY NEWCO. They don't say "Rangers"
:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TQM
there's a morally WRONG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newry Hibs
and there's a morally RIGHT :agree:
"Green is accusing SPL chairmen of bowing to fan power instead of acting for the good of Scottish football. (Daily Express)"
And there was little old me thinking that football was for the benefit of fans not businessmen in it for a quick buck. Green seems to forget that if the decent thing is done fans will still be around long after he has gone.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...ers-situation/
Video of Raith Director saying the SFA / SPL the game is corrupt
It hasn't been signed. He's talking about the new as yet unsigned £80M over 5 years deal that's support to start the season after next.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
If Newco did get into div 3 then no doubt Sportsound would suddenly start to broadcast live games with Chick Hun being the touchline reporter.
To mimick Kevin Keegans finest moment - "I would love it, LOVE IT if they went to Div 3 and failed to get promoted"
Fantastic statement there from Stranraer and I just hope that other clubs at that level come out with a similar stance over the coming days.Quote:
Originally Posted by flash
There should be no way that Rangers are playing in anything other than the third division next season and if that ends up not being the case then it would be nothing short of a disgrace.
I still can't get my head round the SPL Chairmen all coming out and saying no to the SPL and then seemingly taking the lead on trying to get them accepted to SFL1.
Are we quite sure on where this came from and how it's being led?
Rangers themsleves seem to have gone quite quiet on it all.
I don't know if this has been covered in any of the 522 :eek: pages so far however I think more pressure needs to be put onto the BBC for a fair and equal division of spend to support the national game. All the recent panic around Rangers is all to do with TV money. We aren't going to get close to the English Sky deal however as we all contribute to BBC via our license fees I think we are right to question why they aren't supporting the game in Scotland to the same extent they are down South.
They've recently renewed their MOD rights for £180m (that's no live games, just a highlights package) on top of £15m a year for Championship games and highlights.
Assuming that the MOD rights are for 3 years that's £75m a year they are pumping into the English game on top of the ludicrous Sky and BT deal.
Does anyone know the figures of what they are contributing to the Scottish game, I doubt it is £7.5million a year which would give us a representative share and surely go someway to combatting some of the recent pressures/concerns.
Even worse, if signed we'd now know for certain Rangers must play SPL football no matter what?Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
I almost forgive them for beating us in that game at er after reading thatQuote:
Originally Posted by flash
Couldn't agree more with your last 2 points. The Scottish media, and certainly Scottish sports journalism and the hierarchy of the papers they work for are en route to being a self-inflicted bust flush. Can't come soon enough, so that we're left with actual newspapers who, agree or disagree with what the angle they take, are relatively intelligent/thought provoking and don't treat their readers like drooling, one celled amoebas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
We don't even get local news - we get news from Newcastle and Dumfries. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by VickMackie
Sfa will not allow rfc newco into spl says Stewart Regan
Stage 1 tick. :thumbsup:
All this hassle seems to be about covering Doncaster's erse for agreeing a dreadful TV deal.
Jim Spence @bbcjimspence
Quote:
Sfa will not allow rfc newco into spl says Stewart Regan
Jim Spence @bbcjimspence Sfa will not allow rfc newco into spl says Stewart Regan
Reagan speaks some sense at least.
https://twitter.com/bbcjimspence/sta...28228302524416
Petrie must've had a word with Regan :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
Can the Daily Record not over-rule the SFA though?Quote:
Originally Posted by green glory
Which is what we all agreed about 300 pages ago; Sevco dont meet the criteria for SPL anyway. And they wont for three years, so they might as well start in SFL3 (if the SFL will have them).Quote:
Originally Posted by RossHibs
It appears they wont have the players or budget to play in the SPL either, but at least their stadium meets the criteria.
hope this news isnt to soften us up before the blow that they'l allow them in the first. i just dont trust those running the game one bit
there's not a lot you can add to that well.said that manQuote:
Originally Posted by NJ Hibee
Div 3 is the place for the new hun. They can't be sanctioned for Rangers FC's crimes because they are not Rangers FC, they are a new club with no history that happens to play at the same stadium. There is a structure in place that allows them to apply for SFL membership in Div 3. Any attempt to leverage them into SFL 1 would spell the end of Scottish football as a league based on sport. RFC ran up £140m of debts and liquidated (died!) to avoid payment and the newco (new club) should not benefit from that disgraceful event.
Exactly. Doncaster should be emptied for that mistake alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
The thing is though, the £17m is the SPL's loss. The SFL chairmen will have a wry smile and thinking "nae luck".
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber mal
no, but sally McCoist can
Which equals commercial suicide, mass demonstrations, claims of lying, corruption and gross incompetence by the SFA, SPL and all those SPL clubs who vote to allow this Newco into the SPL - and in particular those that publicly stated they would not do so (incl Hibs). Going to be an interesting few days. I might well end up a Stranraer supporter at the end of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by FalkirkHibby
And this is what Chairmen with votes to cast must remember.
[Edit -for-the-benefit-of-the-pedantically-minded :greengrin :
Yes, I KNOW they're no liquidated yet, but that is the route they've chosen.]
:top marksQuote:
Originally Posted by rubber mal
Does that include the proposed SPL 2 though :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
It appears its the new deal he's managed to secure? Even worse in my opinion, the new deal is only viable if the old firm are in the league, in fact the top 6. He needs booted in the bollox, and sacked as fast as humanly possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieC
No idea yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirkster23
Jim Spence @bbcjimspence
Up to 6 SPL clubs at risk according to Stewart Regan. Sounds like option being presented is first division or nothing
Fair enough, but why is he only saying that now? Think of the trouble he could have saved by saying it at the outset.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18687492
Anyone else sickened by the timing of this apology?
Certainly gives credence to Jim Traynor's article as a public apology is one of the areas the "rebel", "panicking" SPL chairman have allegedley given Rangers to address before they make a "dramtic U-turn" and vote the Newco back in.
I will be livid if the Huns get in Div 1 never mind the SPL.
I honestly think feelings are running so high among fans that if Rangers are in the SPL next season crowds will be laughably low and the atmosphere with regards SPL football from non-media types and non Rangers fans will range from apathetic to poisonous rage.
I have a feeling this will not end tomorrow and the meeting will be adjourned with no decision taken.
Bollox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie Reid
I wish to state, publicly if the Newco Rangers do not end up in SFL division 3 (or lower) my support will transfer to my local team.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/danielcrowe/History.html
The player profiles are worth a read
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/danielc...rentSquad.html
Jimmy Murray is 'local hero'
Fan and club chairmen pressure maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
One thing I want to know is do Club 12 have a website? Surely this is THE major criteria for SPL status ..
But yet at least 7 SPL clubs have pubically came out and stated their intention to vote no to the newco?!?! Where are all the facts that back up these claims that have been made? Everything is guesswork.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie Reid
Its more scaremongering drivel from the suits that run our game.
:agree: stains the lot of them!Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakersO'Toole
Who cares about an apology from a guy at what is, a new club.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sea-gull
Where's Whyte, where's Murray, where's Greg, Smith and all the other 'Rangers Men' who actually did the deeds?
All this rubbish up to 6 teams could fold etc without the Newco is unreal. Hand on heart here, i'd rather my team stood up to the bullies of football even if it did mean the death of Hibs rather than playing in a corrupt league and being bullied for the rest of our days. This whole thing is already brought me to the brink blanking this farcical league. Anyone who is involved in trying to bring Newco into the Div 1. Should be booted. I'd love everyone to resign and start a new system altogether and bring in football men. Raith Chairman hit the nail on the head by saying they are a bunch of bullies. If they think they can get away with it then the teams should walk and leave the whole thing up in the air. To many holes in the SPL/SFA trying to just make cash off the ugly sisters.
For all that will be made of this "contract" it was not a contract as such since Sky had never signed it iircQuote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
The SPL could have draw up a proposal to buy Edinburgh castle for £1 but it's meaningless with siggies
What worries me most (and apologies if this has already been mentioned) Is that if the TV deal does hinge on Rangers being in the SPL in 2013/14 than that means they MUST win the 1st Division. It cannot be taken as a given that this will happen based on how "good" Rangers used to be! They still have a transfer embargo in place (that should stay in place!). What will happen is that they will essentially be allowed to run roughshod over the other SFL1 teams to "earn" promotion and anything that could harm them achieving that (red cards, bans, appeals, signings etc) will go in their favour so as not to upset Sky!
I don't think there's any way that Sky or any other commercial partner can write into a contract who plays in the SPL. I don't believe they ever have and I don't believe they ever will.
What could happen is Sky can say, "hmmm, doesn't look like any Huns in the SPL in the next year or 2, we're not too keen on signing off that deal we verbally agreed, let's knock £5M or so off, shall we?"
It is ludicrous to suggest that the SPL would lose the entire tv deal, but even if Sky decided to walk away it's ludicrous to suggest we couldn't find another broadcaster or even resurrect the old SPL tv idea. There is no way the entire £16M could possibly be at risk unless the SPL decided not to sell its tv rights at all.
Doncaster has badly misjudged the public mood at every step, now he is badly misjudging the mood at SFL clubs. Hopefully, he is finding out just how badly right about now. :wink:
A good point. It would be very interesting to see how many refereeing decisions would go in their favour...:hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
Woe to you oh Scottish football fan, for you have turned your back on the lord your god that is Rangers football club. You have been deaf to the cries of the Pharisees in the SFA/SFL when they begged you to turn away from the road to perdition and eternal damnation that must surely follow the exclusion of Rangers from the SPL. You have gainsaid the scribes of the Scottish media, who have striven earnestly to set before you the great lamentations that will surely arise in the land as a result of "Hungeddon". You are deaf to the prophecies of great weeping and gnashing of teeth, that were foretold by the ancient prophets such as Gordon Smith who wondered the land for countless days after his expulsion from the Garden of Edam. You must remember that these sins will lie on you and your children's children at least until Rangers are undisputed kings of Scottish football.
It is not too late, realise your sin, support the newco and abandon any pretence at honour, dignity and fairness.
Before its too late gonnae save the Rangers!
James Matthews@SkyScotSky sources: SPL Chief exec Neil Doncaster's plan for #rangers 1st division re-entry "badly received" by SFL chairmen at meeting
:tee hee:Quote:
Originally Posted by s.a.m
I never saw that coming, :wink: I wonder what donkeys next move is, he must be running out of scams soon?Quote:
Originally Posted by s.a.m
Fixed that for you. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by RossHibs
They should make these meetings available on pay per view to show some transparency - I am sure they would make a load of money through that.
Seems Scottish Football is becoming more corrupt than FIFA with voting etc! :rolleyes:
The way I see things going -
Newco 100% not in SPL - we knew that a while ago - still think Celtic's silence is a disgrace.
Newco 100% won't be in Div 1 - correct decision
Newco will go into Division 3 - but avoid transfer ban - have they not just signed two players over the last few days anyway :confused:
The question is - how will the media adapt with Newco out of the SPL - will they get any mentions on the news / radio / Sportscene (t.v) etc - like they currently do - hopefully will change all the Rangers and Celtic chat we are used to and other clubs will take the spotlight more.
Can someone outline why there is no vote at this SFL meeting? Given the season is a month away how many more delays before everyone is clear what is happening to Rangers and the other teams involved in any divisional moves.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs