Brexit - What Now.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Thanks.

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I saw it and he was making a point of the popular vote in Scotland being against Brexit and he needed to stand up for those voters, which isn’t unreasonable. While it is true in very broad terms, it is a wee bit cheeky as there were significant numbers in Scotland and indeed the SNP who voted for Leave. It is an uncomfortable truth for the SNP and indeed for Scottish Remain voters that a lot of people wanted Brexit.

But that’s politics and if I was in his shoes I would no doubt play it the same way.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Careful what you wish for. In my particular echo chamber, the remoaners are now considered to be traitors and Boris is the messiah.

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Aye right :greengrin. Well, I don't have an echo chamber, Bozo has always been a James Hunt and still is. I'm appalled by the right wing populism of him and the Brexit movement. I voted against independence in the last referendum but would vote in favour in another vote. Scotland in the EU is so much better than Brexit Britain. This is a shambles, all because of Cameron thinking the way to stop the Tories losing votes to UKIP was to offer an EU referendum. I've had enough of being a plaything of political elites who have no brains but huge hubris. It's all related to class and the absence of true democracy. Public schoolboys are playing their power games, with no thought to the lives of millions. No more.

Bojo trying his best to be Britain’s answer to trump is laughable, no amount of chest beating and hollering is going to appeal to the wider public at large, it’s already turning his own party members against him and I feel personally he’s believed his own hype to the point of no return

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I saw it and he was making a point of the popular vote in Scotland being against Brexit and he needed to stand up for those voters, which isn’t unreasonable. While it is true in very broad terms, it is a wee bit cheeky as there were significant numbers in Scotland and indeed the SNP who voted for Leave. It is an uncomfortable truth for the SNP and indeed for Scottish Remain voters that a lot of people wanted Brexit.

But that’s politics and if I was in his shoes I would no doubt play it the same way.

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Fair enough, but I'm fairly confident he feels he's speaking for the majority of Scots.

Corbyn now has the luxury of being able to call an election at a time of his choosing. He should wait and leave Johnson in position but not power for a while. No point rushing it when every day will show his weakness more and more.


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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

It's worse than you think, apparently we're still at war with Germany and this is just Hitler's long game playing out. I don't know what's in the water south of the Tweed, but it's potent stuff.

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The fourth reich awaits us if we don’t leave on October 31st.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3143f13f7e.jpg


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If Corbyn is smart he waits until the Oct 31 deadline has passed and we are still in the Eu. That keeps the Brexit Party in play against the Tories.


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https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/...=f&x=292&y=131

Self-entitled **** holds us in contempt on the front bench as tonight's vote is held. This is a farce, we need a semblance of sanity.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If Corbyn is smart he waits until the Oct 31 deadline has passed and we are still in the Eu. That keeps the Brexit Party in play against the Tories.


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We won't be. We will have left with no deal, unless there is a general election first.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

We won't be. We will have left with no deal, unless there is a general election first.

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Tomorrow a bill will be passed compelling the govt to ask for an extension? Johnson will have to comply with the law.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Tomorrow a bill will be passed compelling the govt to ask for an extension? Johnson will have to comply with the law.


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Can the house of lords stop it though?

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Originally Posted by 1875godsgift

Can the house of lords stop it though?

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Yes they can and there’s already 80 amendments to the bill, they could try and fillybuster the bill.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

Yes they can and there’s already 80 amendments to the bill, they could try and fillybuster the bill.

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So what happens then? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by 1875godsgift

So what happens then? :dunno:

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It’s unlikely to be successful, but if it is then the bill wouldn’t pass. I think it would then pass back to the House of Commons again. After that I’ve no idea as it wasn’t a government bill so it would probably take another vote in the House of Commons again.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

It’s unlikely to be successful, but if it is then the bill wouldn’t pass. I think it would then pass back to the House of Commons again. After that I’ve no idea as it wasn’t a government bill so it would probably take another vote in the House of Commons again.

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Thanks, I've always been confused by their purpose and powers, it seems strange having an un-elected body of rich people as a potential spanner in the works.

Also, what was the point of Jacob Rees-Mogg's comatose posturing?

I think it was obviously stage-managed, the guy is a complete bell-end but has a modicum of intelligence and would have been aware of the potential reaction?

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Originally Posted by 1875godsgift

Thanks, I've always been confused by their purpose and powers, it seems strange having an un-elected body of rich people as a potential spanner in the works.

Also, what was the point of Jacob Rees-Mogg's comatose posturing?

I think it was obviously stage-managed, the guy is a complete bell-end but has a modicum of intelligence and would have been aware of the potential reaction?

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He doesn’t care what people think of him, he’ll be alright no matter what the outcome of all this is.

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Originally Posted by Ryan91

Not Corbyn, popular alternatives seem to be Ken Clarke or Yvette Cooper, Jo Swinson probably thinks she's in with a shot, but she'll find herself being ignored by everyone else.

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Can’t see it being Clarke. Too pro-EU.
Letwin? He would keep the rebel Tories on board.

Blair (joking)!!

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

With 21 less Tory mp’s then we could have a new govt by tomorrow if mp’s wanted it.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

There has to be a general election first.

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Not necessarily. A vote of no confidence in the current government allows the house of commons to try to come up with an alternative government. If an alternative government can be shown to command a majority, Betty gives the go-ahead for it to crack on.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I saw it and he was making a point of the popular vote in Scotland being against Brexit and he needed to stand up for those voters, which isn’t unreasonable. While it is true in very broad terms, it is a wee bit cheeky as there were significant numbers in Scotland and indeed the SNP who voted for Leave. It is an uncomfortable truth for the SNP and indeed for Scottish Remain voters that a lot of people wanted Brexit.

But that’s politics and if I was in his shoes I would no doubt play it the same way.

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IMHO all MPs should be representing their constituencies, and in Scotland every constituency voted remain. Yes, MPs are whipped to toe the party line but if they have a conscience then they represent their constituencies.

Given the numbers now in Parliament, they should go straight for a 2nd referendum.


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

IMHO all MPs should be representing their constituencies, and in Scotland every constituency voted remain. Yes, MPs are whipped to toe the party line but if they have a conscience then they represent their constituencies.

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If MPs are to be mere mouthpieces for the people, then wouldn't it be more cost effective to have Farage's 'direct democracy' where people press a button on their computer to decide government policy?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Ha, ha. Did anyone see the Sarah Smith piece outside holyrood o on the BBC news?

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I really expected someone to have seen it or asked me to explain

Anyways, the bright moment from the news for everyone to enjoy.



Perils of live broadcasting on a momentous night - watch for the cyclist coming in from the left https://t.co/aU1E95EGY7

Think the Cherry hearing verdict is due around 10am this morning

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https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/0...mpression=true


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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Think the Cherry hearing verdict is due around 10am this morning

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Not unlawful apparently

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Not unlawful apparently

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Lord Doherty says power to prorogue Parliament is justiciable in some circumstances, but not in others. All about context; court can’t measure “high policy and political matters” against legal standards”

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https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/sta...77306771918849

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-49568760

Can anyone tell me what the group of Scottish Conservatives have done since being elected?

What have they done to "stand up for Scotland"?

Each and every one of them voting along with Boris last night, an absolute shower of career driven *******s.

Can't wait for a general election to #snpgain these ****s.

I’m glad the court case failed. This is a political issue and it should be sorted out by politicians. The last thing we want in this country is a politicised judiciary like they have in America.


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

IMHO all MPs should be representing their constituencies, and in Scotland every constituency voted remain. Yes, MPs are whipped to toe the party line but if they have a conscience then they represent their constituencies.

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"Represent" doesn't mean slavishly follow the perceived majority view though. Imo they should be using their judgement and the time and resources available to them to decide what they think is the best course of action for their constituents and the wider public.

102 amendments added to the Remainer legislation going to the House of Lords, each one needs to be voted on twice, over a 100 hours of "debate" apparently, they are looking to drag it out as long as they can..

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

102 amendments added to the Remainer legislation going to the House of Lords, each one needs to be voted on twice, over a 100 hours of "debate" apparently, they are looking to drag it out as long as they can..

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Taking a stand against abuse of democracy, is not the same thing as saying you want to remain in the EU.

I dread Brexit not happening as it will result in an even bigger sense of grievance amongst those who think the world is against them, and everything they want is ignored, whether it is reasonable, or not.

It could end up in a very dark place.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I’m glad the court case failed. This is a political issue and it should be sorted out by politicians. The last thing we want in this country is a politicised judiciary like they have in America.


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I agree with that but at the same time the prorogation shenanigans yet again shows why having an unwritten constitution that relies on a mixture of convention and trusting politicians to behave "honourably" seems woefully out of date and not fit for purpose.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Taking a stand against abuse of democracy, is not the same thing as saying you want to remain in the EU.

I dread Brexit not happening as it will result in an even bigger sense of grievance amongst those who think the world is against them, and everything they want is ignored, whether it is reasonable, or not.

It could end up in a very dark place.

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Whereas letting a bunch of shysters get away with selling their snake oil is just peachy?

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Whereas letting a bunch of shysters get away with selling their snake oil is just peachy?

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Sorry, I am not sure what point you are making. If it's any help, I want to remain in the European Union, but I also have great fear of a right wing uprising if the thing doesn't go through.

Who are the shysters, and what is the snake oil?

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Taking a stand against abuse of democracy, is not the same thing as saying you want to remain in the EU.

I dread Brexit not happening as it will result in an even bigger sense of grievance amongst those who think the world is against them, and everything they want is ignored, whether it is reasonable, or not.

It could end up in a very dark place.

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Are you saying anything very different there from 'bullies and thugs should always get their way'? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Are you saying anything very different there from 'bullies and thugs should always get their way'? :dunno:

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No, I am saying I am frightened.

This all seems to be heading one way, and I actually started off my post by defending the "rebels" in parliament.

If you stand back it is becoming more and more likely that this will be settled by whoever controls the army, in the end.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Sorry, I am not sure what point you are making. If it's any help, I want to remain in the European Union, but I also have great fear of a right wing uprising if the thing doesn't go through.

Who are the shysters, and what is the snake oil?

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The Eurosceptics and the magical ability to have and eat cake.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

The Eurosceptics and the magical ability to have and eat cake.

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Any chance you could put that into terms the man on the 29 bus can understand? I honestly have no idea what you are saying.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Any chance you could put that into terms the man on the 29 bus can understand? I honestly have no idea what you are saying.

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It seems clear to me.

The Brexiteers who expect the UK to be the same, if not better than before Brexit.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Any chance you could put that into terms the man on the 29 bus can understand? I honestly have no idea what you are saying.

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Ok, sorry, more typing needed. :greengrin

What I am saying is that Leave won the EU ref by selling the voters a vision where the UK retained all the economic benefits of EU membership but no longer had to play by any of its rules. Since they deliberately avoided even an outline of how they would achieve this, people had no idea of what they were actually voting for. As soon as you introduce real world trade-offs, eg. single market access vs ending freedom of movement, some of their voters peel off. Any single Brexit option polled never gets a majority.

Imo, if they want to actually Leave, the Brexiters need to come up with a single, achievable plan and put that to a 2nd ref.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

No, I am saying I am frightened.

This all seems to be heading one way, and I actually started off my post by defending the "rebels" in parliament.

If you stand back it is becoming more and more likely that this will be settled by whoever controls the army, in the end.

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Bit pessimistic perhaps. There are some good signs, despite his manager's best efforts to avoid any sort of public scrutiny, that Johnson may be getting found out. Without their charismatic :faf: leader the Brexit ultras may pipe down quite a bit, and if they do the remainer ultras will too.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Ok, sorry, more typing needed. :greengrin

What I am saying is that Leave won the EU ref by selling the voters a vision where the UK retained all the economic benefits of EU membership but no longer had to play by any of its rules. Since they deliberately avoided even an outline of how they would achieve this, people had no idea of what they were actually voting for. As soon as you introduce real world trade-offs, eg. single market access vs ending freedom of movement, some of their voters peel off. Any single Brexit option polled never gets a majority.

Imo, if they want to actually Leave, the Brexiters need to come up with a single, achievable plan and put that to a 2nd ref.

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Thanks, wasn't being arsey, I just wanted to be clear.

That sounds like a plan to me.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It seems clear to me.

The Brexiteers who expect the UK to be the same, if not better than before Brexit.

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Yes, but you are not me, and I wasn't actually asking you anyway.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Bit pessimistic perhaps. There are some good signs, despite his manager's best efforts to avoid any sort of public scrutiny, that Johnson may be getting found out. Without their charismatic :faf: leader the Brexit ultras may pipe down quite a bit, and if they do the remainer ultras will too.

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I pray that it is that simple. I must admit I had hopes that was what I was seeing yesterday, the inevitable car crash that appointing Boris would lead to. Hopefully there is more fun to come, and hopefully even the most die hard "we want ooz koontry back" Brexiteer will see that the thing has to be rethought.

I'm no Corbyn fan by any stretch but I've just listened to PMQ's from my sunbed in Lanzarote :greengrin and that was a masterful performance.

I could almost hear Boris's blood pressure rising through my earphones.

I'm beginning to understand this long game hes playing.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Thanks, wasn't being arsey, I just wanted to be clear.

That sounds like a plan to me.

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No worries.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

IMHO all MPs should be representing their constituencies, and in Scotland every constituency voted remain. Yes, MPs are whipped to toe the party line but if they have a conscience then they represent their constituencies.

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Sorry but that is nonsense. MPs are there to represent all their constituents, not just the ones who voted for them or a stand-alone vote.
By your logic there would be SNP MPs who should be against independence or a referendum in order to respect the votes of their constituents, no? That’s on an assumption that some seats returned SNP MPs but didn’t have a Separate majority.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Taking a stand against abuse of democracy, is not the same thing as saying you want to remain in the EU.

I dread Brexit not happening as it will result in an even bigger sense of grievance amongst those who think the world is against them, and everything they want is ignored, whether it is reasonable, or not.

It could end up in a very dark place.

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No offence, but F them.

We should not be cowed by what they think.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

No offence, but F them.

We should not be cowed by what they think.

J

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You are not offending me. I agree with what you say, but I fear that many more people don't and will go along with whatever happens to other people to save their own skin.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Sorry but that is nonsense. MPs are there to represent all their constituents, not just the ones who voted for them or a stand-alone vote.
By your logic there would be SNP MPs who should be against independence or a referendum in order to respect the votes of their constituents, no? That’s on an assumption that some seats returned SNP MPs but didn’t have a Separate majority.

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So do you think that Malcolm Chisholm was wrong on the occasions that he voted against his party?

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

So do you think that Malcolm Chisholm was wrong on the occasions that he voted against his party?

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Not my point as well you know

To me Boris seems like he is struggling with the pressure and scrutiny already. If , as expected , he loses tonight and Labour don't vote for a General Election then I can see him trying anything to cling onto power including ignoring the legislation.

If that happens I reckon he will bring the whole Conservative party down as even Tory MPs are unlikely to be able to stomach that course of action.

Corbyn may think he’s in a good position, and able to dictate the timing of any election, but I wonder if the SNP could put a spanner in the works if the FTPA could be amended for a 50% majority (possibly at the bequest of a Section 30 order).

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

IMHO all MPs should be representing their constituencies, and in Scotland every constituency voted remain. Yes, MPs are whipped to toe the party line but if they have a conscience then they represent their constituencies.

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If that was the case why didn't all the MPs whose constituencies voted for Brexit follow the majority view in their constituencies when it came to voting in Parliament?

They're supposed to represent every constituent whether they voted for them or not - or indeed whether or not they backed Brexit or Scottish independence.

From a Brexit/Scottish perspective it's often overlooked that almost 40% of the electorate voted for Brexit. Not an insignificant minority.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

If that was the case why didn't all the MPs whose constituencies voted for Brexit follow the majority view in their constituencies when it came to voting in Parliament?

They're supposed to represent every constituent whether they voted for them or not - or indeed whether or not they backed Brexit or Scottish independence.

From a Brexit/Scottish perspective it's often overlooked that almost 40% of the electorate voted for Brexit. Not an insignificant minority.

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Simply because a hard Brexit, which is where Bojo is headed if left to his own devices, isn't what was portrayed to the public at the time of the referendum.

MP’s should exercise their judgement and vote the way they see fit on any issue.
If they vote consistently in a way that a sufficient number of their constituents don’t like them they will lose the next election. That’s how it works.



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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

"Represent" doesn't mean slavishly follow the perceived majority view though. Imo they should be using their judgement and the time and resources available to them to decide what they think is the best course of action for their constituents and the wider public.

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What's best for:

1. Country
2. Constituents
3. Party

and in that order.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

What's best for:

1. Country
2. Constituents
3. Party

and in that order.

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Or, if you are a Scottish Conservative mp then it will be

Personal survival

Party

UK

Constituency

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

Simply because a hard Brexit, which is where Bojo is headed if left to his own devices, isn't what was portrayed to the public at the time of the referendum.

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Why didn't they vote for May's deal then?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Or, if you are a Scottish Conservative mp then it will be

Personal survival

Party

UK

Constituency

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I don't think that's always true.

Take Ruth Davidson - she was quick enough to fall on her sword rather than put her personal survival above anything else.

I think this list of priorities will vary from individual to individual. Tories have an annoying habit of being able to put their party above everything else, although it will be interesting to see how that loyalty holds up going forward after the party has treated so many prominent Tories so shabbily in recent weeks.

And I'd take a bit of convincing that politicians of other persuasions were any better. The greatest socialists, in my experience, will often have an ego that comes before anything else and often to the detriment of those they claim to serve selflessly. We're desperately needing a solid, cohesive, competent unit on that side of the house right now, will they manage to become that? (Corbyn did, admittedly, put on a good performance earlier today.)

Nationalists have in recent years been good at putting the independence cause above anything else.

Ruth Davidson was all about personal survival, she knew she finally had to face up to defending Boris and a no deal Brexit and shat it big time, relegating herself to the backbenches to protect her reputation for any future comeback.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I don't think that's always true.

Take Ruth Davidson - she was quick enough to fall on her sword rather than put her personal survival above anything else.

I think this list of priorities will vary from individual to individual. Tories have an annoying habit of being able to put their party above everything else, although it will be interesting to see how that loyalty holds up going forward after the party has treated so many prominent Tories so shabbily in recent weeks.

And I'd take a bit of convincing that politicians of other persuasions were any better. The greatest socialists, in my experience, will often have an ego that comes before anything else and often to the detriment of those they claim to serve selflessly. We're desperately needing a solid, cohesive, competent unit on that side of the house right now, will they manage to become that? (Corbyn did, admittedly, put on a good performance earlier today.)

Nationalists have in recent years been good at putting the independence cause above anything else.

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Hardly a great achievement seeing as that single issue is what they are in existence to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I don't think that's always true.

Take Ruth Davidson - she was quick enough to fall on her sword rather than put her personal survival above anything else.

I think this list of priorities will vary from individual to individual. Tories have an annoying habit of being able to put their party above everything else, although it will be interesting to see how that loyalty holds up going forward after the party has treated so many prominent Tories so shabbily in recent weeks.

And I'd take a bit of convincing that politicians of other persuasions were any better. The greatest socialists, in my experience, will often have an ego that comes before anything else and often to the detriment of those they claim to serve selflessly. We're desperately needing a solid, cohesive, competent unit on that side of the house right now, will they manage to become that? (Corbyn did, admittedly, put on a good performance earlier today.)

Nationalists have in recent years been good at putting the independence cause above anything else.

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You will notice I am not talking about MSPs, I clearly said MPs.

All the Scottish Tories at Westminster voted against the motion last night. That was personal survival first, party second and the good of the country and constituencies a distant last.

I watched the whole PMQ today. Corbyn utterly battered Boris the Buffoon. He never answered once Corbyn 's requesting for publishing documentation regarding shortages in food, medicine etc with a hard brexit. He went mental whilst loosing the arguments. Following this Ian Blackford got the same blistering guff from the boy Boris. Asked about him ensuring the government would support the result tonight. Asked twice. No answer, just rubbish attacks on the Scottish Government. What an arse.

BIG G

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Why didn't they vote for May's deal then?

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Because the deal wasn't acceptable to them for various reasons - too hard, too soft, backstop, party directives, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Hardly a great achievement seeing as that single issue is what they are in existence to achieve.

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They are also the government, so have a duty to do what is best for the country in that role. Every individual politician will also have opinions on subjects beyond independence which may or may not conflict.

Taking Brexit for an example, they may at times be conflicted between various shade of softer Brexit or remaining in the EU which would be better for the country, or a harder Brexit which may make independence more likely.

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Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7

I watched the whole PMQ today. Corbyn utterly battered Boris the Buffoon. He never answered once Corbyn 's requesting for publishing documentation regarding shortages in food, medicine etc with a hard brexit. He went mental whilst loosing the arguments. Following this Ian Blackford got the same blistering guff from the boy Boris. Asked about him ensuring the government would support the result tonight. Asked twice. No answer, just rubbish attacks on the Scottish Government. What an arse.

BIG G

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The thing is, we are not Boris' target audience. That sort of thing will play well in the Shires.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

Ruth Davidson was all about personal survival, she knew she finally had to face up to defending Boris and a no deal Brexit and shat it big time, relegating herself to the backbenches to protect her reputation for any future comeback.

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:agree:

The Tories were going to drop back in Scotland anyway. Ruth getting her resignation in avoids her brand being tainted with this failure.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I don't think that's always true.

Take Ruth Davidson - she was quick enough to fall on her sword rather than put her personal survival above anything else.

I think this list of priorities will vary from individual to individual. Tories have an annoying habit of being able to put their party above everything else, although it will be interesting to see how that loyalty holds up going forward after the party has treated so many prominent Tories so shabbily in recent weeks.

And I'd take a bit of convincing that politicians of other persuasions were any better. The greatest socialists, in my experience, will often have an ego that comes before anything else and often to the detriment of those they claim to serve selflessly. We're desperately needing a solid, cohesive, competent unit on that side of the house right now, will they manage to become that? (Corbyn did, admittedly, put on a good performance earlier today.)

Nationalists have in recent years been good at putting the independence cause above anything else.

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Nationalists in Scotland believe self determination is the best thing for the country, it's also what their constituents voted them in to do and there's an argument to be made that it could destroy their party if they are successful. All in all they would stand up well to Churchill's thoughts on the priority of duties for members of parliament.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

The thing is, we are not Boris' target audience. That sort of thing will play well in the Shires.

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I'm not sure that calling Corbyn a girl's blouse, if that's reported, will necessarily play too well with everyone in the shires. The rubber bath toy is struggling.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

I'm not sure that calling Corbyn a girl's blouse, if that's reported, will necessarily play too well with everyone in the shires. The rubber bath toy is struggling.

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:agree:

Even in the Shires I think going from "I don't want an election, you don't want an election" to screaming "give us an election you big girl's blouse" across the chamber in a couple of days makes you look a total dick.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

:agree:

Even in the Shires I think going from "I don't want an election, you don't want an election" to screaming "give us an election you big girl's blouse" across the chamber in a couple of days makes you look a total dick.

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I am minded to agree. Looking forward to tonight's TV news.

Labour split again apparently (groan). The Leader's Office, ie. Milne, Murphy and the other Stalinists, want to agree to an October 15th election as soon as the Benn bill is signed and sealed. Starmer, McDonnell and most MPs want to wait until an extension is secured.

Tweets from Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford calling for the Corbynista position. All other oppo parties in the Starmer camp.

I must say I can't see the motivation (other than impatience) not to let Johnson stew in his own juice.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

:agree:

Even in the Shires I think going from "I don't want an election, you don't want an election" to screaming "give us an election you big girl's blouse" across the chamber in a couple of days makes you look a total dick.

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We thought that too with the Donald..... And look what happened! 😱

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

I'm not sure that calling Corbyn a girl's blouse, if that's reported, will necessarily play too well with everyone in the shires. The rubber bath toy is struggling.

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It wasn't audible, but lip readers would have no trouble.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

Because the deal wasn't acceptable to them for various reasons - too hard, too soft, backstop, party directives, etc.

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Or alternatively they simply think they know better than their constituents and will find any number of reasons to vote down ANY deal. From that perspective you can see why the PM is taking the course of action he is because no deal looks to be the only way Brexit can ever happen.

I can't muster much sympathy for the Tory MPs who lost the whip. They've fallen on their swords for what? The right to kick Brexit down the road for another three months (and likely more)? Johnson gets flak for not providing evidence of what progress has been made with the EU to secure a new deal, yet those who portraying themselves as the heroic good guys battling no deal have also failed to provide any indication that they can come up with an alternative.

Can you imagine the furore of the Scottish independence referendum result had gone the other way and three and a half years later we were still part of the UK? Parliament as a whole has been a disgrace over this whole shambles. The whole lot of them should lose the whip.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

It wasn't audible, but lip readers would have no trouble.

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Bit like Corbyn calling May a 'stupid woman' at PMQs despite claiming he said 'stupid people'. Mind you, if that's what the PM did say then I'd be surprised if he denied it as he tends to throw that sort of language around unashamedly.

Talking of Corbyn, the fact this whole sorry mess has contrived to make him look vaguely statesmanlike sums up how desperate things have got :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Or alternatively they simply think they know better than their constituents and will find any number of reasons to vote down ANY deal. From that perspective you can see why the PM is taking the course of action he is because no deal looks to be the only way Brexit can ever happen.

I can't muster much sympathy for the Tory MPs who lost the whip. They've fallen on their swords for what? The right to kick Brexit down the road for another three months (and likely more)? Johnson gets flak for not providing evidence of what progress has been made with the EU to secure a new deal, yet those who portraying themselves as the heroic good guys battling no deal have also failed to provide any indication that they can come up with an alternative.

Can you imagine the furore of the Scottish independence referendum result had gone the other way and three and a half years later we were still part of the UK? Parliament as a whole has been a disgrace over this whole shambles. The whole lot of them should lose the whip.

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Parliament were put in an impossible situation by the lying of the leave side which promised the world

It can't happen. The only solution was a soft brexit, which was ruled out all the way by the tories

Blaming parliment for trying to mitigate the loss of jobs and income is, IMHO, wrong

Edit - the silly, simplistic, open. Ended referendum question to a wholly complex situation didn't help

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

General election with parties putting Brexit soft or no deal or remain via a people’s vote in their manifesto. That will get the debate moving.

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Originally Posted by greenlex

General election with parties putting Brexit soft or no deal or remain via a people’s vote in their manifesto. That will get the debate moving.

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No deal isn't possible now.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

No deal isn't possible now.

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Yes it is.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

No deal isn't possible now.

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It is, until the law is formed

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It is, until the law is formed

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And even once this Bill becomes law, the law could be changed again if Bojo wins an election on 15 Oct to allow us to crash out.

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

And even once this Bill becomes law, the law could be changed again if Bojo wins an election on 15 Oct to allow us to crash out.

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How is he going to call that election without a two thirds majority?

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

How is he going to call that election without a two thirds majority?

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Not getting the 2/3 majority tonight is largely irrelevant. It's coming sooner rather than later. Parliamentary arithmetic dictates this. And if he wins a majority there is nothing to stop him changing the law and crashing us out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

Not getting the 2/3 majority tonight is largely irrelevant. It's coming sooner rather than later. Parliamentary arithmetic dictates this. And if he wins a majority there is nothing to stop him changing the law and crashing us out.

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He will win a majority and the lib dems will give themselves a pat on the back behind closed doors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

Not getting the 2/3 majority tonight is largely irrelevant. It's coming sooner rather than later. Parliamentary arithmetic dictates this. And if he wins a majority there is nothing to stop him changing the law and crashing us out.

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Do you mean it will come after a vote of no confidence?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Parliament were put in an impossible situation by the lying of the leave side which promised the world

It can't happen. The only solution was a soft brexit, which was ruled out all the way by the tories

Blaming parliment for trying to mitigate the loss of jobs and income is, IMHO, wrong

Edit - the silly, simplistic, open. Ended referendum question to a wholly complex situation didn't help

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

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There was never a solution out there. The fact that three and a half years down the line Parliament is no closer to finding one makes that clear. But to claim the electorate was too dim-witted to understand what they were voting for is a tired old cliche.

Parliament is not trying to mitigate anything. It has descended into an arena whereby a host of factions are manoeuvring their own narrow political agendas into position.

If I could change history so that the Brexit referendum never took place I would. Brexit has become such an mind-numbing presence in our day-to-day lives that it's hard to remember what things were like without it. The prospect of our parliamentarians ensuring we're subjected to yet another meaningless delay makes me despair of them. No deal is, as many of them seem to forget, the default option under the Withdrawal Agreement (which a thumping majority of them voted for) and for all their posturing I think those seeking to delay yet again would be surprised by how many of the electorate would hail a no deal exit simply to bring an end to this seemingly endless chaos.

Channel 4 reporting that a procedural oversight in relation to the Kinnock amendment may have "torpedoed" the entire bill to prevent no deal.

When asked in simple terms what that could mean the Journalist from Channel 4 says "this could be a very significant victory for the government."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

Channel 4 reporting that a procedural oversight in relation to the Kinnock amendment may have "torpedoed" the entire bill to prevent no deal.

When asked in simple terms what that could mean the Journalist from Channel 4 says "this could be a very significant victory for the government."

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Any chance of VAR?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

Channel 4 reporting that a procedural oversight in relation to the Kinnock amendment may have "torpedoed" the entire bill to prevent no deal.

When asked in simple terms what that could mean the Journalist from Channel 4 says "this could be a very significant victory for the government."

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It appears to have gone through because no teller for the other side could be found (whatever that means), so apparently the May deal can now be brought back for another vote! After the endless flak she took for her deal (in particular from the weasel Corbyn) the irony will surely not be lost on even the humourless Maybot that Labour have brought it back from the dead.

Parliament. Shambles.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/...=f&x=292&y=131

Self-entitled **** holds us in contempt on the front bench as tonight's vote is held. This is a farce, we need a semblance of sanity.

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Last time I saw this guy he was in the beano


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

It appears to have gone through because no teller for the other side could be found (whatever that means), so apparently the May deal can now be brought back for another vote! After the endless flak she took for her deal (in particular from the weasel Corbyn) the irony will surely not be lost on even the humourless Maybot that Labour have brought it back from the dead.

Parliament. Shambles.

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Apparently the government purposely did not provide a teller to muddy the waters with the bill.

This whole thing , when you also consider what is happening in the Lords with the 100+ amendments added to achieve nothing but waste time , just shows what an absolute ****show our democracy has become.

Boris now effectively begging Corbyn to give him an election to get him out of this mess.

Corbyn has him exactly where he wants him now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

Not getting the 2/3 majority tonight is largely irrelevant. It's coming sooner rather than later. Parliamentary arithmetic dictates this. And if he wins a majority there is nothing to stop him changing the law and crashing us out.

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You can have a change in government without an election.

Sit down now Blackford.

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Originally Posted by heretoday

Sit down now Blackford.

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Had Boris burying his head in a sulk.

Swinson's accent...'kin hell...

Is it wrong that I'm starting to like Anna Soubry?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

There was never a solution out there. The fact that three and a half years down the line Parliament is no closer to finding one makes that clear. But to claim the electorate was too dim-witted to understand what they were voting for is a tired old cliche.

Parliament is not trying to mitigate anything. It has descended into an arena whereby a host of factions are manoeuvring their own narrow political agendas into position.

If I could change history so that the Brexit referendum never took place I would. Brexit has become such an mind-numbing presence in our day-to-day lives that it's hard to remember what things were like without it. The prospect of our parliamentarians ensuring we're subjected to yet another meaningless delay makes me despair of them. No deal is, as many of them seem to forget, the default option under the Withdrawal Agreement (which a thumping majority of them voted for) and for all their posturing I think those seeking to delay yet again would be surprised by how many of the electorate would hail a no deal exit simply to bring an end to this seemingly endless chaos.

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You mean the Torys have made a complete mess of this from start to where we are now?

With more mess to come!