Vaccine Certificate

[hibbyfraelibby]

Yes, that correct.

I hope whoever is doing the spot checks had been told to accept all forms of proof ie paper copies, pdf digital and app digital.... theyre all valid so here's hoping they're properly briefed.

Do two jaggy scars on your upper right arm count?

[hibbyfraelibby]

Yes, that correct.

I hope whoever is doing the spot checks had been told to accept all forms of proof ie paper copies, pdf digital and app digital.... theyre all valid so here's hoping they're properly briefed.

Do two jaggy scars on your upper right arm count.

[Rumble de Thump]

What utter drivel! It will be easy enough to find many places with low rates of infection with no sign of a passport anywhere - just as it will be easy to find places with high rates that use them. What you are doing is apologising for and advocating fascism. You need called out for it. People like you and your nonsense are creating massive problems for future generations.

You've completely lost the plot. Your posts spreading dangerous misinformation should have been deleted. I'm suprised you're still allowed to be here.

[bingo70]

I’ve no idea where my appointment letters are and this app thing doesn’t seem to like me either so this is turning into a potential problem for me.

Suppose I better enjoy this game on Saturday, might be my last for a while 😂

[green day]

What utter drivel! It will be easy enough to find many places with low rates of infection with no sign of a passport anywhere - just as it will be easy to find places with high rates that use them. What you are doing is apologising for and advocating fascism. You need called out for it. People like you and your nonsense are creating massive problems for future generations.

Its certainly true that many places - which pursued a different strategy - have low levels etc (NZ / S Korea etc).

But in Western Europe the country with the highest "everything" is the UK, which...............coincidentally..........is the one with the most "freedoms".

Its not fascism, its simply fairly sensible policy - and as you should know, many many other countries close to us are implementing these and more stringent restrictions.

[green day]

I’ve no idea where my appointment letters are and this app thing doesn’t seem to like me either so this is turning into a potential problem for me.

Suppose I better enjoy this game on Saturday, might be my last for a while 😂

Ask your doctor for your CHI number and register with that website I posted prev page. Its really simple, honestly.

[wookie70]

Photo check to compare the person with the photo ID It doesn't have that though

[Peevemor]

What utter drivel! It will be easy enough to find many places with low rates of infection with no sign of a passport anywhere - just as it will be easy to find places with high rates that use them. What you are doing is apologising for and advocating fascism. You need called out for it. People like you and your nonsense are creating massive problems for future generations.

I made comparisons between Brittany & Scotland based on government data, ie. facts not opinion.

I object to your use of the terms drivel & "advocating facism" as well as your accusations.

I don't know who you think you are to "speak" to me like that.

I don't really want another ban so I won't continue, but I'm fairly certain you wouldn't say the same things to me in person.

[wookie70]

Your right you could but I'm not sure many people would part with their phones for the night . We had to provide ID for some gigs a couple of years ago so maybe they will tie it in with that. It is pointless if you can just show a paper copy though as they will be easy to get a hold of

Why would they need to. Is the app only allowed to be installed on a phone that is owned by the person with the passport and then on only one phone. The app checker doesn't appear to show a photo so the app is about as secure as a paper copy assuming you can marry the name with a name on the ticket. It will be interesting to see if stewards even counter check names on tickets with app/paper copy details. I very much doubt they will do that check let alone a photo ID check which Hibs would tell us about in advance. The big news from the club is they think paper copies are easier.

[SideBurns]

Ask your doctor for your CHI number and register with that website I posted prev page. Its really simple, honestly.

My issue was I had my username from the appt letter, but of course have forgotten the password and the website wouldn't let me change it for some reason. But I just phoned them up and they're posting one out. I won't need it for Saturday anyway.

[JimBHibees]

I’ve no idea where my appointment letters are and this app thing doesn’t seem to like me either so this is turning into a potential problem for me.

Suppose I better enjoy this game on Saturday, might be my last for a while 😂

I didn't have my username or appointment letter. Click on recover username and that allows you to get your information though you need to know one of the dates of your vaccines. All pretty straightforward you can then download the vaccination document with qr codes on it to your phone.

https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/after-your-vaccine/get-a-record-of-your-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-status

[JimBHibees]

It doesn't have that though

What doesn't have that? Pretty sure that is what the selfie is doing.

[wookie70]

Its certainly true that many places - which pursued a different strategy - have low levels etc (NZ / S Korea etc).

But in Western Europe the country with the highest "everything" is the UK, which...............coincidentally..........is the one with the most "freedoms".

Its not fascism, its simply fairly sensible policy - and as you should know, many many other countries close to us are implementing these and more stringent restrictions.

It isn't the UK we are talking about here it is Scotland. We are a good bit ahead of other nations in terms of cases per 100K at least for the moment. The UK has had less deaths per capita than Belgium and Italy so not quite at the bottom of the pile. Not sure we do have the most freedoms and certainly not at some stages during the pandemic we didn't.

I would agree we had a different strategy, other countries tried to save as many lives as possible. Scotland has never even attempted to do that hence you have 50k attendances at events every week. Mask wearing a thing of the past etc. The Passports is primarily about getting people vaccinated by coercion. It will have far less effect on deaths and illness than something like stopping away fans would and is a mile behind measures like getting track and trace to be useful etc etc. It is political tokenism and get the population arguing among themselves which appears to be what the role of Government is these days.

The passports are a knee jerk reaction to a spike that has passed. The recent figures show less youngsters having vaccines now compared to pre announcement so they may have actually have had a detrimental effect on vaccine take up. There is also figures now being more widely discussed that having Covid and recovered makes you a similar risk to other people as someone who has been double jagged. That was the case at the time of the passport announcement too but seems clearer now. Many youngsters will be making a calculated decision on whether they get vaccinated when they know the Covid risk to them is tiny and the risk to others, given they have had the virus, is similar to if they were double jagged. That seems a reasonable position to me and one that I don't think you should be denied some basic liberties over.

[Zambernardi1875]

https://twitter.com/alexfmac/status/1448273861653504013?s=21

[Peevemor]

https://twitter.com/alexfmac/status/1448273861653504013?s=21

You can do anything with statistics if you take them out of context. Why didn't the guy tweet the conclusions?


Results
The rate of a positive COVID-19 test varies by age and vaccination status. The rate of a positive COVID-19 test is substantially lower in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals up to the age of 39. In individuals aged greater than 40, the rate of a positive COVID-19 test is higher in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated. This is likely to be due to a variety of reasons, including differences in the population of vaccinated and unvaccinated people as well as differences in testing patterns.

The rate of hospitalisation within 28 days of a positive COVID-19 test increases with age, and is substantially greater in unvaccinated individuals compared to vaccinated individuals.

The rate of death within 28 days or within 60 days of a positive COVID-19 test increases with age, and again is substantially greater in unvaccinated individuals compared to fully vaccinated individuals.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/alexfmac/status/1448273861653504013?s=21

John Burn-Murdoch
@jburnmurdoch
Folks, if you see anyone quoting Alex Berenson / Joe Rogan on how case rates in England are higher among vaxxed than unvaxxed, that data is incorrect, as explained here.

The table they shared is real, but it's wrong.

From the financial times
https://amp.ft.com/content/125fbaf8-175a-4e2e-852a-9995ca5176b2?__twitter_impression=true

[Ozyhibby]

Downloaded the app today and it worked first time. [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zambernardi1875]

You can do anything with statistics if you take them out of context. Why didn't the guy tweet the conclusions?

Says the man who only puts up random statistics

[Peevemor]

Says the man who only puts up random statistics

What are you on about?

I posted comparisons between the number of new cases & the number of hospitalisations between 2 close neighbours of similar size and demographics.

One, where I live, and where the Covid passport has been in full flow for almost 3 months & the other - Scotland.

Call that random if you want.

[Moulin Yarns]

I would agree we had a different strategy, other countries tried to save as many lives as possible. Scotland has never even attempted to do that hence you have 50k attendances at events every week. Mask wearing a thing of the past

It is political tokenism and get the population arguing among themselves



I think the first thing I've highlighted is as offensive as it gets!!! Do you really think we didn't try to save as many lives as possible? I look forward to the evidence to back up that ridiculous claim!

Mask wearing is still required in a number of situations, shops, public transport, indoor public spaces. Unless you can give evidence that the government has given instructions that masks are no longer required, of course!

At least you got the third one correct!:rolleyes:

[Stairway 2 7]

It isn't the UK we are talking about here it is Scotland. We are a good bit ahead of other nations in terms of cases per 100K at least for the moment. The UK has had less deaths per capita than Belgium and Italy so not quite at the bottom of the pile. Not sure we do have the most freedoms and certainly not at some stages during the pandemic we didn't.

I would agree we had a different strategy, other countries tried to save as many lives as possible. Scotland has never even attempted to do that hence you have 50k attendances at events every week. Mask wearing a thing of the past etc. The Passports is primarily about getting people vaccinated by coercion. It will have far less effect on deaths and illness than something like stopping away fans would and is a mile behind measures like getting track and trace to be useful etc etc. It is political tokenism and get the population arguing among themselves which appears to be what the role of Government is these days.

The passports are a knee jerk reaction to a spike that has passed. The recent figures show less youngsters having vaccines now compared to pre announcement so they may have actually have had a detrimental effect on vaccine take up. There is also figures now being more widely discussed that having Covid and recovered makes you a similar risk to other people as someone who has been double jagged. That was the case at the time of the passport announcement too but seems clearer now. Many youngsters will be making a calculated decision on whether they get vaccinated when they know the Covid risk to them is tiny and the risk to others, given they have had the virus, is similar to if they were double jagged. That seems a reasonable position to me and one that I don't think you should be denied some basic liberties over.

In the 3 months that England stopped the legal need for masks almost everywhere, they have had lower rates than us. Also cases dropped and stayed there once stadiums opened so...

Of course passports are trying to force the youth to get vaccinated, we want as many as possible to be transmitting lower levels of covid.

[CropleyWasGod]

What doesn't have that? Pretty sure that is what the selfie is doing.

The app doesn't show your photo.

[SChibs]

I think the first thing I've highlighted is as offensive as it gets!!! Do you really think we didn't try to save as many lives as possible? I look forward to the evidence to back up that ridiculous claim!

Mask wearing is still required in a number of situations, shops, public transport, indoor public spaces. Unless you can give evidence that the government has given instructions that masks are no longer required, of course!

At least you got the third one correct!:rolleyes:

Offensive to whom?

Of course we didn't try to save as many lives as possible? We could have locked down the country to the point where we were forced to stay in out homes and the army were on the street enforcing. We could have closed borders the same way Australia did. We could still have restrictions if we were trying to 'save as many lives as possible'. There are countless ways we could have saved more lives.


None of these ways are the correct way to go about things though, there needs to be some sort of balance.

[Moulin Yarns]

Offensive to whom?

Of course we didn't try to save as many lives as possible? We could have locked down the country to the point where we were forced to stay in out homes and the army were on the street enforcing. We could have closed borders the same way Australia did. We could still have restrictions if we were trying to 'save as many lives as possible'. There are countless ways we could have saved more lives.


None of these ways are the correct way to go about things though, there needs to be some sort of balance.

The bit I replied to...


other countries tried to save as many lives as possible. Scotland has never even attempted to do that

"Scotland has never even attempted to do that"! Did we just sit back and go for 'Herd immunity'? Name the countries that
locked down the country to the point where we were forced to stay in out homes and the army were on the street enforcing

The United Queendom controls borders so NO we couldn't do what NZ and Australia did!

I agree there are more ways that we could have saved lives, but to claim, as Wookie did, that we never attemted anything to save as many lives as possible is offensive to every right minded scot.

As for balance, I asked Wookie to prove his claim, silence!!

At the very beginning all for home nations were trying to fight the virus together, but when Westminster wanted to ease, it was the other nations that said hang on a minute, people are still dying, we are not going to ease restrictions as quickly so, in truth, Scotland and Wales at least did more than the Government for England did to save lives.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I agree there are more ways that we could have saved lives, but to claim, as Wookie did, that we never attempted anything to save as many lives as possible is offensive to every right minded scot.

As for balance, I asked Wookie to prove his claim, silence!!

At the very beginning all for home nations were trying to fight the virus together, but when Westminster wanted to ease, it was the other nations that said hang on a minute, people are still dying, we are not going to ease restrictions as quickly so, in truth, Scotland and Wales at least did more than the Government for England did to save lives.


you probably won't need more than one guess who would have been one of the first posters on here to complain about their civil liberties/human rights/geneva convention/Government spying via the QR code/it's all about control etc etc etc :greengrin

[wookie70]

I think the first thing I've highlighted is as offensive as it gets!!! Do you really think we didn't try to save as many lives as possible? I look forward to the evidence to back up that ridiculous claim!

Mask wearing is still required in a number of situations, shops, public transport, indoor public spaces. Unless you can give evidence that the government has given instructions that masks are no longer required, of course!

At least you got the third one correct!:rolleyes:

We have demonstrably failed in keeping the death toll low despite massive advantages over other countries. We are relying on vaccines rather than trying to stop transmission. I'm no scientist but I know you are more likely to die of Covid when double jagged than to die of Covid if you don't catch it. We were ridiculously slow so lost many needless lives at the start. The Government's own paper says this and Scotland were pretty much an identikit of the way Westminster handled thing. The strategy was to keep hospitals as clear as possible not to save every life possible. That meant care homes were basically thrown to the covid lions. Far from being a ridiculous claim our position as one of the worst countries in the world in terms of deaths per million, having the advantage of being an island, having a national health service and having months of notice of the pandemic and also a large period where a similar country, Italy, had faired shows either a complete lack of competence or a misguided strategy that thought keeping hospitals clear meant lower death rates. A bit of both as far as I am concerned as both UK and Scottish governments have been atrocious in dealing with the pandemic. We had a couple of opportunities to do what NZ did but business always came before Citizens lives and particularly for the older generation.

I never said mask wearing legislation had changed I said it was a thing of the past. The last couple of games I have been at were at Hampden and Easter Road and there was practically no masks being worn. Enforcing that might be a better way to stop the spread but it isn't about stopping the spread, at least as a first priority, it is about getting more jags in arms. Mind you there are lots of ways a government trying to save lives would act before trying passports.

What is your theory in terms of how the Scottish and Westminster's strategy has panned out. I think it is ridiculous to suggest we did try and save as many lives as possible and the way care homes were dealt with would be a prime example of that.

[wookie70]

The bit I replied to...

As for balance, I asked Wookie to prove his claim, silence!!



I have replied now and never realised there was a time scale for doing so. I never even realised this had moved over to the holy ground so cool your jets. I'll give you a few minutes to reply to me asking you for your thoughts before moaning about you to another poster!

[wookie70]

you probably won't need more than one guess who would have been one of the first posters on here to complain about their civil liberties/human rights/geneva convention/Government spying via the QR code/it's all about control etc etc etc :greengrin

I'm honoured and the purpose of your post was. I rarely have a pop at posters, once recently frustration got the better of me and I was sarcastic. I state my case and you are entitled to state yours, poor form if you ask me having a dig but failing to engage in the discussion but this Forum is like that these days.

The First Minister is well aware of the issues with passports in the terms you state above. She has said it is a difficult decision previously and has made a judgement call and that is her job to do so. I think she is wrong and have every right to state my case here. Have we seen a massive rise in young people being vaccinated by the way, no the reverse since the legislation was announced. Not only do I think it is an issue with rights but it looks like it has failed to encourage youngsters to be vaccinated, at least up to this point. I'd far rather the government tried to win hearts and minds of those still to be vaccinated rather than using such a blunt instrument as passports.

Incidentally, I have never suggested the Government were spying via QR codes I have stated information particularly of a medical nature has GDPR rules around it and a steward at a football match surrounded by fans might not be the best place for it to be viewed.

[Moulin Yarns]

We have demonstrably failed in keeping the death toll low despite massive advantages over other countries. We are relying on vaccines rather than trying to stop transmission. I'm no scientist but I know you are more likely to die of Covid when double jagged than to die of Covid if you don't catch it. We were ridiculously slow so lost many needless lives at the start. The Government's own paper says this and Scotland were pretty much an identikit of the way Westminster handled thing. The strategy was to keep hospitals as clear as possible not to save every life possible. That meant care homes were basically thrown to the covid lions. Far from being a ridiculous claim our position as one of the worst countries in the world in terms of deaths per million, having the advantage of being an island, having a national health service and having months of notice of the pandemic and also a large period where a similar country, Italy, had faired shows either a complete lack of competence or a misguided strategy that thought keeping hospitals clear meant lower death rates. A bit of both as far as I am concerned as both UK and Scottish governments have been atrocious in dealing with the pandemic. We had a couple of opportunities to do what NZ did but business always came before Citizens lives and particularly for the older generation.

I never said mask wearing legislation had changed I said it was a thing of the past. The last couple of games I have been at were at Hampden and Easter Road and there was practically no masks being worn. Enforcing that might be a better way to stop the spread but it isn't about stopping the spread, at least as a first priority, it is about getting more jags in arms. Mind you there are lots of ways a government trying to save lives would act before trying passports.

What is your theory in terms of how the Scottish and Westminster's strategy has panned out. I think it is ridiculous to suggest we did try and save as many lives as possible and the way care homes were dealt with would be a prime example of that.

A very long post to read and respond to on my phone.

You will get a response tomorrow, when I can read it properly on a computer screen.

However keeping the death rate low and actually not trying to do anything which is what you said originally, are completely different things.

[wookie70]

A very long post to read and respond to on my phone.

You will get a response tomorrow, when I can read it properly on a computer screen.

However keeping the death rate low and actually not trying to do anything which is what you said originally, are completely different things.


Reading my reply I missed a para. This hopefully addresses your specific point above better imo

The British governments have made judgements where we knew we would lose more lives than was necessary. At no point have we tried to save as many lives as possible(what I said) which is the strategy of NZ etc. We have taken a balanced approach and a strategy that guaranteed a loss of lives for an increase in liberty. We have implemented that approach very poorly too. I'll never agree with an approach that means more lives are lost than necessary. Keeping it low is also very relative and the word low should never be used in terms of any of the UK governments death rates in terms of Covid. I prefer the term hugely more than it needed to be and that continues to be the case week on week.

[basehibby]

You've completely lost the plot. Your posts spreading dangerous misinformation should have been deleted. I'm suprised you're still allowed to be here.

I have spread no such thing - point me to the posts you base your claims on and I promise I will run rings around you.

All I have done is posted verifiable truth - that information is presented in a way which runs counter to your hysterical advocacy for Scotland becoming a "show me your papers" discriminatory society does not make it untrue - uncomfortable for you maybe - but not untrue.

[Stairway 2 7]

We have demonstrably failed in keeping the death toll low despite massive advantages over other countries. We are relying on vaccines rather than trying to stop transmission. I'm no scientist but I know you are more likely to die of Covid when double jagged than to die of Covid if you don't catch it. We were ridiculously slow so lost many needless lives at the start. The Government's own paper says this and Scotland were pretty much an identikit of the way Westminster handled thing. The strategy was to keep hospitals as clear as possible not to save every life possible. That meant care homes were basically thrown to the covid lions. Far from being a ridiculous claim our position as one of the worst countries in the world in terms of deaths per million, having the advantage of being an island, having a national health service and having months of notice of the pandemic and also a large period where a similar country, Italy, had faired shows either a complete lack of competence or a misguided strategy that thought keeping hospitals clear meant lower death rates. A bit of both as far as I am concerned as both UK and Scottish governments have been atrocious in dealing with the pandemic. We had a couple of opportunities to do what NZ did but business always came before Citizens lives and particularly for the older generation.

I never said mask wearing legislation had changed I said it was a thing of the past. The last couple of games I have been at were at Hampden and Easter Road and there was practically no masks being worn. Enforcing that might be a better way to stop the spread but it isn't about stopping the spread, at least as a first priority, it is about getting more jags in arms. Mind you there are lots of ways a government trying to save lives would act before trying passports.

What is your theory in terms of how the Scottish and Westminster's strategy has panned out. I think it is ridiculous to suggest we did try and save as many lives as possible and the way care homes were dealt with would be a prime example of that.

I think your mistaking huge cases with deaths, vaccines have changed everything, were fully open and deaths are tiny compared to what they would have been without vax.
25200

You also keep going on about masks, they are window dressing. Since England stopped mask wearing it dropped below the other 3 uk nations that kept them and stayed there, they obviously aren't the difference
25201

[basehibby]

Its certainly true that many places - which pursued a different strategy - have low levels etc (NZ / S Korea etc).

But in Western Europe the country with the highest "everything" is the UK, which...............coincidentally..........is the one with the most "freedoms".

Its not fascism, its simply fairly sensible policy - and as you should know, many many other countries close to us are implementing these and more stringent restrictions.

You see a "fairly sensible policy".

I see bullying; coercion; discrimination; abuse of human rights; censorship; manipulation of the herd through fear - and the end game for many governments is and always has been "health passports" IMO. I haven't brought my arguments on here as it's somewhere I like to talk about my football team, but I've been predicting the vax passports ever since the ethically and morally bankrupt policy of pushing risky experimental medical products on teenagers that don't need them was introduced in the spring. The only logical reason for that policy is as a precursor to "health passports" which will only function as a system if all the adults (and nearly adults) are pushed into it.

This is not a health policy so much as an excuse to implement the infrastructure for a social credits system - with all the wonderful features used so extensively in China today - and you and many others are lapping it all up! Well thanks a bundle to you all for your limitless compliance!

[Stairway 2 7]

You see a "fairly sensible policy".

I see bullying; coercion; discrimination; abuse of human rights; censorship; manipulation of the herd through fear - and the end game for many governments is and always has been "health passports" IMO. I haven't brought my arguments on here as it's somewhere I like to talk about my football team, but I've been predicting the vax passports ever since the ethically and morally bankrupt policy of pushing risky experimental medical products on teenagers that don't need them was introduced in the spring. The only logical reason for that policy is as a precursor to "health passports" which will only function as a system if all the adults (and nearly adults) are pushed into it.

This is not a health policy so much as an excuse to implement the infrastructure for a social credits system - with all the wonderful features used so extensively in China today - and you and many others are lapping it all up! Well thanks a bundle to you all for your limitless compliance!

Desperate times call for desperate measures if unchecked covid would have killed half a million in the uk. If we have to coerce and bully to save lives fine. Conscription in the war was coercion and bullying ho hum.

As for experimental, mrna has been studied for about 4 decades. By the time teens had billions had been given safely

[wookie70]

What doesn't have that? Pretty sure that is what the selfie is doing.
The app for checking doesn't show a photo. No idea why showing a selfie of yourself on a phone would prove anything. Have we got our wires crossed and are talking about different things.

[basehibby]

Desperate times call for desperate measures if unchecked covid would have killed half a million in the uk. If we have to coerce and bully to save lives fine. Conscription in the war was coercion and bullying ho hum.

As for experimental, mrna has been studied for about 4 decades. By the time teens had billions had been given safely

Vaccines generally have a trial period measured in multiple years rather than months - and with very good reason. And in that context - whereby the safety trials for the vaccines permitted for use in the UK are not even due to finish until 2023 - ANY vaccine should be considered experimental - never mind products which use a revolutionary technology such as MRNA as the mechanism for delivery.

And with that in mind there is no logical case for

1) rolling the vaxes out to teenagers - the most at risk are already theoretically protected and the youth have as much chance (maybe more - only time will tell) of being harmed as they have of being protected. It is tyerefore ethically wrong and logically insupportable to go down this path.
2) vax passports - once again, those who have chosen to be vaccinated are already protected in theory. If this theory turns out to be wrong then there is even less case for coercing populations into taking a (YES) experimental product. If it turns out to be right then the at risk are protected - so why the need for bullying the reluctant?

I have never had a problem with making COVID jabs available to people in high risk groups who have a much higher chance of benefiting from them - in a similar way to how the Flu jabs are administered for example. But rolling them out to age groups for whom the balance of risks is very far from clear is an incredibly reckless policy which could yet end in tears. And to coerce and bully populations into such a path is - in my opinion - criminal.

[007]

You see a "fairly sensible policy".

I see bullying; coercion; discrimination; abuse of human rights; censorship; manipulation of the herd through fear - and the end game for many governments is and always has been "health passports" IMO. I haven't brought my arguments on here as it's somewhere I like to talk about my football team, but I've been predicting the vax passports ever since the ethically and morally bankrupt policy of pushing risky experimental medical products on teenagers that don't need them was introduced in the spring. The only logical reason for that policy is as a precursor to "health passports" which will only function as a system if all the adults (and nearly adults) are pushed into it.

This is not a health policy so much as an excuse to implement the infrastructure for a social credits system - with all the wonderful features used so extensively in China today - and you and many others are lapping it all up! Well thanks a bundle to you all for your limitless compliance!

Ironically many who believe it's all about government manipulation/control are those who also get all their "facts" and "news" from Facebook fed to them via the Facebook algorithm.

How is the vaccine risky and experimental? What proof have you got that teenagers don't need them?

[wookie70]

I think your mistaking huge cases with deaths, vaccines have changed everything, were fully open and deaths are tiny compared to what they would have been without vax.
25200

You also keep going on about masks, they are window dressing. Since England stopped mask wearing it dropped below the other 3 uk nations that kept them and stayed there, they obviously aren't the difference
25201

Are you suggesting the UK and Scotland haven't had huge death tolls in comparison to similar nations across the world. The majority of those happened pre vaccine and in my view lots could have been avoided. The vaccines have made a big difference and I have had my two and no doubt will get a booster soon.

I'm not really bothered with masks and can't recall mentioning them very often. They are said to give some protection and are routinely not worn, particularly in a football context, and no-one seems to be bothered. I was using them as an example of what other measures could be used to potentially stop the spread. Are you suggesting that masks are the only reason England has less cases. What are the testing numbers per capita against positive tests in the nations(last report I read(2 Oct) 1 in 70 tested in England had Covid compared to 1 in 60 Scotland and 1 in 55 Wales. NI had 1 in 130), how many have already had the virus so have protection (similar ratios to the testing with Northern Ireland much better than the other three nations and England better then Scotland with Wales at the foot of the table)and are the rules different in each nation etc etc. If that table stays the same for a few weeks could I replace the word masks with passports, that would be silly as there are so many other factors but it would be as credible as scrolling masks on a table that had nothing to do with masks.

[wookie70]

Ironically many who believe it's all about government manipulation/control are those who also get all their "facts" and "news" from Facebook fed to them via the Facebook algorithm.

How is the vaccine risky and experimental? What proof have you got that teenagers don't need them?

The government advisers left it up to the government to decide on vaccines for 12-15 year olds from what I remember. That is how close the risk/reward was for that young age group. Not sure if they are on Facebook though

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you suggesting the UK and Scotland haven't had huge death tolls in comparison to similar nations across the world. The majority of those happened pre vaccine and in my view lots could have been avoided. The vaccines have made a big difference and I have had my two and no doubt will get a booster soon.

I'm not really bothered with masks and can't recall mentioning them very often. They are said to give some protection and are routinely not worn, particularly in a football context, and no-one seems to be bothered. I was using them as an example of what other measures could be used to potentially stop the spread. Are you suggesting that masks are the only reason England has less cases. What are the testing numbers per capita against positive tests in the nations(last report I read(2 Oct) 1 in 70 tested in England had Covid compared to 1 in 60 Scotland and 1 in 55 Wales. NI had 1 in 130), how many have already had the virus so have protection (similar ratios to the testing with Northern Ireland much better than the other three nations and England better then Scotland with Wales at the foot of the table)and are the rules different in each nation etc etc. If that table stays the same for a few weeks could I replace the word masks with passports, that would be silly as there are so many other factors but it would be as credible as scrolling masks on a table that had nothing to do with masks.

Scotland has had a disgustingly high death toll but comparisons against new Zealand is stupid, when we need thousands of trucks from other nations a day to survive. We need compared against western Europe and we have done poor against still, but new Zealand is daft comparison.

The lower numbers in England are mostly down to past infection, but there was still room for huge growth as seen by constant big numbers. Masks and stadiums aren't going to change r much at all. Household mixing and complete shutdown of shops were the biggest. Most cases came from people we knew. You've mentioned masks and stadiums umpteen times
25202

[007]

Vaccines generally have a trial period measured in multiple years rather than months - and with very good reason. And in that context - whereby the safety trials for the vaccines permitted for use in the UK are not even due to finish until 2023 - ANY vaccine should be considered experimental - never mind products which use a revolutionary technology such as MRNA as the mechanism for delivery.

And with that in mind there is no logical case for

1) rolling the vaxes out to teenagers - the most at risk are already theoretically protected and the youth have as much chance (maybe more - only time will tell) of being harmed as they have of being protected. It is tyerefore ethically wrong and logically insupportable to go down this path.
2) vax passports - once again, those who have chosen to be vaccinated are already protected in theory. If this theory turns out to be wrong then there is even less case for coercing populations into taking a (YES) experimental product. If it turns out to be right then the at risk are protected - so why the need for bullying the reluctant?

I have never had a problem with making COVID jabs available to people in high risk groups who have a much higher chance of benefiting from them - in a similar way to how the Flu jabs are administered for example. But rolling them out to age groups for whom the balance of risks is very far from clear is an incredibly reckless policy which could yet end in tears. And to coerce and bully populations into such a path is - in my opinion - criminal.

Your repeated claims of the vaccines being experimental have been debunked.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines-idUSL1N2M70MW

You obviously believe vaccines work so surely the more people that are vaccinated then the better the chance of reducing the spread. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

We could have been back to normal, or certainly a lot closer to it, if lockdown rule breakers, anti-maskers, anti-vaxers, Facebook fake news spreaders etc had done what the majority had done and tried together as a society to defeat this deadly virus. But no, they think they know better than virologists with years of experience because of some BS article that popped up in their Facebook news feed. That, in my opinion, is the criminal behaviour.

[Stairway 2 7]

Vaccines generally have a trial period measured in multiple years rather than months - and with very good reason. And in that context - whereby the safety trials for the vaccines permitted for use in the UK are not even due to finish until 2023 - ANY vaccine should be considered experimental - never mind products which use a revolutionary technology such as MRNA as the mechanism for delivery.

And with that in mind there is no logical case for

1) rolling the vaxes out to teenagers - the most at risk are already theoretically protected and the youth have as much chance (maybe more - only time will tell) of being harmed as they have of being protected. It is tyerefore ethically wrong and logically insupportable to go down this path.
2) vax passports - once again, those who have chosen to be vaccinated are already protected in theory. If this theory turns out to be wrong then there is even less case for coercing populations into taking a (YES) experimental product. If it turns out to be right then the at risk are protected - so why the need for bullying the reluctant?

I have never had a problem with making COVID jabs available to people in high risk groups who have a much higher chance of benefiting from them - in a similar way to how the Flu jabs are administered for example. But rolling them out to age groups for whom the balance of risks is very far from clear is an incredibly reckless policy which could yet end in tears. And to coerce and bully populations into such a path is - in my opinion - criminal.

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881?lang=en

Please read this thread from Andrew crowxford a great immunologist, on the safety of vaccines. I'll read anything you put forward if you read this please. All ill effects of a vaccine show up early.

As for the cliche of your protected so why do you care if others aren't, because unvaccinated produce more viral load. Vaccines are unbelievable at stopping severe disease but you can still catch it. I don't want someone with a high viral load near me and my dad and kids at the football

[wookie70]

Scotland has had a disgustingly high death toll but comparisons against new Zealand is stupid, when we need thousands of trucks from other nations a day to survive. We need compared against western Europe and we have done poor against still, but new Zealand is daft comparison.

The lower numbers in England are mostly down to past infection, but there was still room for huge growth as seen by constant big numbers. Masks and stadiums aren't going to change r much at all. Household mixing and complete shutdown of shops were the biggest. Most cases came from people we knew. You've mentioned masks and stadiums umpteen times
25202

UK imports according to OEC website 9.94K dollars per capita and New Zealand 8.11. Theirs obviously ship differently and it is a fair point about trucks but we(UK) could have shut down travel completely and only allowed trucks with essential good etc. I'm not say it is a straight comparison with NZ but their whole approach was about saving every life and not allowing Covid to spread. I still believe it is a fair comparison but as you say we are even poor to nations closer to these shores. I doubt we even considered saving as many lives as possible and whether trucks are coming in or not having schemes like eat out to help out aren't designed to save lives.

Masks look fairly effective on that chart to me and I would guess more effective than the passport scheme which was the point I was trying to make.

[Stairway 2 7]

UK imports according to OEC website 9.94K dollars per capita and New Zealand 8.11. Theirs obviously ship differently and it is a fair point about trucks but we(UK) could have shut down travel completely and only allowed trucks with essential good etc. I'm not say it is a straight comparison with NZ but their whole approach was about saving every life and not allowing Covid to spread. I still believe it is a fair comparison but as you say we are even poor to nations closer to these shores. I doubt we even considered saving as many lives as possible and whether trucks are coming in or not having schemes like eat out to help out aren't designed to save lives.

Masks look fairly effective on that chart to me and I would guess more effective than the passport scheme which was the point I was trying to make.
It's a balancing act they undoubtedly didn't lockdown hard and fast enough in Scotland in the first 2 waves. Releasing people from hospitals to care homes without tests probably the biggest disaster , almost 30% of uk deaths are people with dementia.

But the economy matters too. It's estimated by some that tories austerity policy caused 120,000 preventable deaths. In the US 1% rise in unemployment creates an estimated 40,000 deaths per year. I wouldn't like the decisions to have been mine. To think they wanted people to die is just ridiculous. We thought it was over last summer then alpha came, if alpha stayed it would have been over this summer then delta came

[greenginger]

The bit I replied to...



"Scotland has never even attempted to do that"! Did we just sit back and go for 'Herd immunity'? Name the countries that

The United Queendom controls borders so NO we couldn't do what NZ and Australia did!

I agree there are more ways that we could have saved lives, but to claim, as Wookie did, that we never attemted anything to save as many lives as possible is offensive to every right minded scot.

As for balance, I asked Wookie to prove his claim, silence!!

At the very beginning all for home nations were trying to fight the virus together, but when Westminster wanted to ease, it was the other nations that said hang on a minute, people are still dying, we are not going to ease restrictions as quickly so, in truth, Scotland and Wales at least did more than the Government for England did to save lives.

Trouble is , Scotland has not saved more lives.

Checking the latest stats for excess deaths shows there have now been more excess deaths per head of population in Scotland , during covid, than the average for the whole of the UK.

[Ozyhibby]

Trouble is , Scotland has not saved more lives.

Checking the latest stats for excess deaths shows there have now been more excess deaths per head of population in Scotland , during covid, than the average for the whole of the UK.

Source?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Did Scotland go for herd immunity at the start of the pandemic, I think clearly yes.

Jason Leitch 10th March 2020:

“you want to gradually increase the number of people over a very controlled period so that we get herd immunity in the community”.

[Stairway 2 7]

Did Scotland go for herd immunity at the start of the pandemic, I think clearly yes.

Jason Leitch 10th March 2020:

“you want to gradually increase the number of people over a very controlled period so that we get herd immunity in the community”.

There is no choice but to get herd immunity, thankfully we've got most of ours through vaccination. Need to remember at the start it was estimated it would take around 5 years for a vaccine. We would have to have locked down for years. The cmos of the 4 nations thought we could just keep it at bay whilst giving people immunity and not overcrowding hospitals. If vaccines didn't work or come out quickly as they did we would have been snookered even with a pretty decent lockdown, thanks to delta

[cabbageandribs1875]

I'm honoured and the purpose of your post was. I rarely have a pop at posters, once recently frustration got the better of me and I was sarcastic. I state my case and you are entitled to state yours, poor form if you ask me having a dig but failing to engage in the discussion but this Forum is like that these days.

The First Minister is well aware of the issues with passports in the terms you state above. She has said it is a difficult decision previously and has made a judgement call and that is her job to do so. I think she is wrong and have every right to state my case here. Have we seen a massive rise in young people being vaccinated by the way, no the reverse since the legislation was announced. Not only do I think it is an issue with rights but it looks like it has failed to encourage youngsters to be vaccinated, at least up to this point. I'd far rather the government tried to win hearts and minds of those still to be vaccinated rather than using such a blunt instrument as passports.

Incidentally, I have never suggested the Government were spying via QR codes I have stated information particularly of a medical nature has GDPR rules around it and a steward at a football match surrounded by fans might not be the best place for it to be viewed.


if the SG was/were allowed to close our border i have no doubt it WOULD have saved lives, how many it's obviously impossible to say, but of course we had the likes of that big pussy George ******* galloway bragging that no one was going to stop him crossing the border then of course there was the usual jumping on the 'nobody will stop me doing this and that' p@sh, then of course the group on here that have damn well moaned right from lockdown LAST MARCH, they won't stop me doing this, they won't stop me doing that, the think they've known better right throughout all this, then one calling for protests outside Edinburgh council HQ ffs, what about our rights he/they cried... **** their rights, they had/have no damn right to possibly infect good decent responsible people that have done what was asked to help us through this, as for your sentence that the SG didn't care(or whatever) about lives was not only ignorance but a damn well lie, then the 'i'm not getting a certificate as it breaches my rights'(or words to that effect fgs again this group have went on and on and on even though all their concerns etc have been debunked time and time again, there must be about 3876234523174217903 posts going on about the same topic over and over, i'll give a huge thumbs up to the likes of moulin yarns,and a few others, that have tried to explain to they posters the reasons behind certificates/QR codes/PDF's whatever and still they have to keep repeating themselves, anyway....not saying anymore on it i'll now just sit back and watch the same group repeating themselves over and over, at least the leader of the SG wasn't going around hospitals 'shaking hands with everyone' a 'leader' that certainly does not give a flying **** about ANY lives.


and relax, and sorry for sounding nippy at you btw

[greenginger]

Source?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sources are the Scottish Gov. Nat . Records Office and the UK Office of National Statistics.

Scottish Excess Deaths are now 11,299 divided by a population of 5.46 million = 207/ 100k population.

UK Excess Deaths are now 131,228 divided by a population of 67.28 million = 195/100k population.

[wookie70]

It's a balancing act they undoubtedly didn't lockdown hard and fast enough in Scotland in the first 2 waves. Releasing people from hospitals to care homes without tests probably the biggest disaster , almost 30% of uk deaths are people with dementia.

But the economy matters too. It's estimated by some that tories austerity policy caused 120,000 preventable deaths. In the US 1% rise in unemployment creates an estimated 40,000 deaths per year. I wouldn't like the decisions to have been mine. To think they wanted people to die is just ridiculous. We thought it was over last summer then alpha came, if alpha stayed it would have been over this summer then delta came

They put the economy above some lives and your examples show that Governments do that all the time. I feel like you are strengthening my point of view rather than talking me out of it. I'm a socialist that believes there is plenty to go round if we share it properly and that capitalism and growth does more to kill the world than make it better, so I look at thing through that lens.

Wealth before Health. It wasn't unemployment that killed in the USA it was lack of benefits, would more have died if benefits were sufficient, no danger. Austerity from the outset was a flawed concept that anyone could see would cause misery and death. Some might have thought it was the best route for recovery, doubtful, but everyone knew the "side effect" would be unnecessary deaths. Could those deaths from poverty and despair been avoided, many if not the vast majority of them could imo. The policies on Covid were/are exactly the same imo. Death is almost treated like a side effect and certainly not as important as the wealthy continuing to be wealthy. Do just enough to keep in power was the mantra as far as I am concerned. Unbelievably, considering the shambles of the UK Covid response, particularly early on, people have deemed UK Governments to have done enough. I suspect that is more that there isn't really any alternatives north and south of the border than a high five for their performance.

There may be decisions where a number of potential deaths are weighed against another number of deaths with economic factors in the mix too. My argument will always be that the lowest number of deaths should always be the route we choose. I don't believe that has been the case through the pandemic. We are still averaging over 100 deaths a day in the UK despite the success of the vaccination program. If we hadn't opened up nightclubs, fitba grounds etc do you think that would have been more or less.

[James310]

at least the leader of the SG wasn't going around hospitals 'shaking hands with everyone' a 'leader' that certainly does not give a flying **** about ANY lives

Correct in that Nicola Sturgeon was never pictured shaking hands with anyone in hospital, but her Health Secretary on the same day Boris was shaking hands said "my understanding from the science and the clinical advice is that at this point there is no reason not to shake hands" the same day BJ was shaking hands. Again, both governments would have been getting the same advice.

Jason Leitch on Off the Ball about 2 weeks later "if your hands are clean you can shake hands"

[Glory Lurker]

Sources are the Scottish Gov. Nat . Records Office and the UK Office of National Statistics.

Scottish Excess Deaths are now 11,299 divided by a population of 5.46 million = 207/ 100k population.

UK Excess Deaths are now 131,228 divided by a population of 67.28 million = 195/100k population.

I’m not disputing these numbers, but could you give a link for the UK number?

[Stairway 2 7]

They put the economy above some lives and your examples show that Governments do that all the time. I feel like you are strengthening my point of view rather than talking me out of it. I'm a socialist that believes there is plenty to go round if we share it properly and that capitalism and growth does more to kill the world than make it better, so I look at thing through that lens.

Wealth before Health. It wasn't unemployment that killed in the USA it was lack of benefits, would more have died if benefits were sufficient, no danger. Austerity from the outset was a flawed concept that anyone could see would cause misery and death. Some might have thought it was the best route for recovery, doubtful, but everyone knew the "side effect" would be unnecessary deaths. Could those deaths from poverty and despair been avoided, many if not the vast majority of them could imo. The policies on Covid were/are exactly the same imo. Death is almost treated like a side effect and certainly not as important as the wealthy continuing to be wealthy. Do just enough to keep in power was the mantra as far as I am concerned. Unbelievably, considering the shambles of the UK Covid response, particularly early on, people have deemed UK Governments to have done enough. I suspect that is more that there isn't really any alternatives north and south of the border than a high five for their performance.

There may be decisions where a number of potential deaths are weighed against another number of deaths with economic factors in the mix too. My argument will always be that the lowest number of deaths should always be the route we choose. I don't believe that has been the case through the pandemic. We are still averaging over 100 deaths a day in the UK despite the success of the vaccination program. If we hadn't opened up nightclubs, fitba grounds etc do you think that would have been more or less.

The only thing that stops covid in a country that needs thousands of trucks a day to survive is a lockdown. You agree the economy is knackered if we did this for coming up for 2 years yeah. Covid was widespread before we knew what it even was. You say close the world borders, 10% of the worlds gap is tourism, 13% of the world's jobs, 78 million of these lost. Stopping tourism will cost many lives its a balance.

[greenginger]

I’m not disputing these numbers, but could you give a link for the UK number?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

Half way down the page under three ways to measure number of deaths.

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m not disputing these numbers, but could you give a link for the UK number?

Uk not in the top 30 for covid deaths per head and will probably drop due to our vaccination and other countries getting hit now


COVID-19
DEATHS

EXCESS
DEATHS

EXCESS DEATHS PER 100K

Peru
Mar 23 2020-
Sep 5 2021 198,450 194,740 593
Bulgaria
Apr 20 2020-
Aug 29 2021 18,690 36,620 527
North Macedonia
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 5,480 10,810 519
Serbia
Apr 1 2020-
Aug 31 2021 7,280 31,600 464
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Apr 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 9,650 15,040 461
Russia
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 155,940 652,070 447
Lithuania
May 25 2020-
Aug 29 2021 4,490 11,510 412
South Africa
Apr 12 2020-
Sep 4 2021 83,320 234,980 394
Mexico
Mar 30 2020-
Aug 8 2021 244,400 485,980 386
Ecuador
Mar 23 2020-
Aug 29 2021 23,430 64,980 367
Bolivia
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 17,820 43,390 367
Belarus
Apr 1 2020-
Mar 31 2021 2,250 33,690 357
Albania
Jun 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 2,420 10,090 351
Romania
Mar 30 2020-
Jul 25 2021 34,220 65,250 338
Czech Republic
Mar 30 2020-
Aug 1 2021 30,360 35,220 329
Poland
Mar 30 2020-
Aug 15 2021 75,280 124,370 324
Slovakia
Sep 28 2020-
Jul 18 2021 12,480 17,360 318
Montenegro
Jul 27 2020-
Apr 25 2021 1,420 1,910 306
Brazil
Mar 1 2020-
Aug 31 2021 580,410 631,830 295
Hungary
Apr 6 2020-
Aug 15 2021 30,000 28,540 292
Moldova
Apr 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 6,190 11,430 284
Colombia
Apr 6 2020-
Jul 11 2021 112,790 135,850 270
Kazakhstan
Jun 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 9,040 51,070 269
Croatia
Apr 20 2020-
Aug 1 2021 8,220 10,880 268
Iran
Feb 24 2020-
Sep 5 2021 110,670 213,330 256
Italy
Mar 2 2020-
Jun 27 2021 127,440 148,560 246
United States
Mar 8 2020-
Aug 21 2021 614,640 788,460 241
Ukraine
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 55,540 104,840 241
Kosovo
Jul 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 2,210 4,260 240
Paraguay
Aug 1 2020-
Aug 31 2021 15,720 16,500 229
Spain
Mar 9 2020-
Aug 29 2021 83,980 101,950 215
Latvia
Oct 19 2020-
Aug 22 2021 2,520 4,100 215
Portugal
Mar 23 2020-
Aug 29 2021 17,710 21,540 209
Slovenia
Apr 6 2020-
Aug 22 2021 4,410 3,990 190
Chile
Apr 6 2020-
Aug 29 2021 36,850 33,020 188
Egypt
Apr 1 2020-
May 31 2021 15,050 194,260 186
Britain
Mar 14 2020-
Aug 27 2021 132,560 124,000 183

[wookie70]

if the SG was/were allowed to close our border i have no doubt it WOULD have saved lives, how many it's obviously impossible to say, but of course we had the likes of that big pussy George ******* galloway bragging that no one was going to stop him crossing the border then of course there was the usual jumping on the 'nobody will stop me doing this and that' p@sh, then of course the group on here that have damn well moaned right from lockdown LAST MARCH, they won't stop me doing this, they won't stop me doing that, the think they've known better right throughout all this, then one calling for protests outside Edinburgh council HQ ffs, what about our rights he/they cried... **** their rights, they had/have no damn right to possibly infect good decent responsible people that have done what was asked to help us through this, as for your sentence that the SG didn't care(or whatever) about lives was not only ignorance but a damn well lie, then the 'i'm not getting a certificate as it breaches my rights'(or words to that effect fgs again this group have went on and on and on even though all their concerns etc have been debunked time and time again, there must be about 3876234523174217903 posts going on about the same topic over and over, i'll give a huge thumbs up to the likes of moulin yarns,and a few others, that have tried to explain to they posters the reasons behind certificates/QR codes/PDF's whatever and still they have to keep repeating themselves, anyway....not saying anymore on it i'll now just sit back and watch the same group repeating themselves over and over, at least the leader of the SG wasn't going around hospitals 'shaking hands with everyone' a 'leader' that certainly does not give a flying **** about ANY lives.


and relax, and sorry for sounding nippy at you btw

Thanks for that. I sit in some of the groups you mention as you know. It isn't as black and white as you make out though. I am actually in favour of draconian measures if it clearly saves lots of lives. I was right behind the lockdowns and my only complaints were they were far too late, didn't last long enough and were not draconian enough. I also have no time for the 5G in vaccine arguments or the Bill Gates is behind this etc but that is a long way from teenagers, particularly those who have had Covid, making a judgement on their own health. I think there are some questions that don't have straightforward answers and the Passports would definitely be one of those. I've been put right a few times on here so that is good and the posters you mention have certainly helped my understanding of their point of view and softened or changed my views on some of the points I have made. Nowhere near enough to change my opinion though. Generally that has been done forcefully but taking the man not the ball. No issue with that at all.

If I thought the passport scheme was a decent way of saving lives and the only card we had to play I would probably support it too despite my misgivings in regards to freedoms being lost etc. There is lots of transmission from vaccinated individuals so deciding to allow the games to go ahead and away fans etc to attend are huge decisions compared to the possibility that passports would lead to more vaccinations and therefore less hospitalisations in the long run. Looking at recent figures they have done the opposite with vaccination rates per month particularly in the younger "targeted" group falling quite significantly. Probably because many have had covid due to the Nightclub switch being flicked to on a few months back with obvious consequences accepted by the Government. Seems bizarre that that group, many of whom have now had covid and who had the shortest window to get the vaccine are being stopped doing the same when many are now safer for themselves and others due to having Covid and if recent reports are true as safe as those who have been vaccinated.

I'd have been happy to stand at the border to stop Galloway and I obviously realise the SG hasn't got full control over borders. Not sure what they could have done in terms of shutting airports though. I am also not saying Governments are delighted at the deaths or looking to increase the numbers but I absolutely believe they have had decisions to make where they chose to increase freedom/wellbeing and restart the economy and those decisions were made with full knowledge that they would create more deaths than some of the alternatives. It is essentially collateral damage where they view the happiness/wellbeing and wealth of many as more important than the death of some. The government report actually puts numbers on certain events like Cheltenham etc. The numbers would be far lower now with the same decision now due to vaccines but the theory remains the same. You will never have the opportunity to improve your wellbeing/ wealth or happiness after you are dead.

One thing I do take from your post is none of us are changing each others minds. I enjoy the debate though so see no harm in continuing. It is a forum to discuss views after all and this thread is probably in its rightful home now.

[Moulin Yarns]

We appear to now have 2 parallel threads on arguments around covid. Should they be merged or one closed?

[greenginger]

if the SG was/were allowed to close our border i have no doubt it WOULD have saved lives, how many it's obviously impossible to say, but of course we had the likes of that big pussy George ******* galloway bragging that no one was going to stop him crossing the border then of course there was the usual jumping on the 'nobody will stop me doing this and that' p@sh, then of course the group on here that have damn well moaned right from lockdown LAST MARCH, they won't stop me doing this, they won't stop me doing that, the think they've known better right throughout all this, then one calling for protests outside Edinburgh council HQ ffs, what about our rights he/they cried... **** their rights, they had/have no damn right to possibly infect good decent responsible people that have done what was asked to help us through this, as for your sentence that the SG didn't care(or whatever) about lives was not only ignorance but a damn well lie, then the 'i'm not getting a certificate as it breaches my rights'(or words to that effect fgs again this group have went on and on and on even though all their concerns etc have been debunked time and time again, there must be about 3876234523174217903 posts going on about the same topic over and over, i'll give a huge thumbs up to the likes of moulin yarns,and a few others, that have tried to explain to they posters the reasons behind certificates/QR codes/PDF's whatever and still they have to keep repeating themselves, anyway....not saying anymore on it i'll now just sit back and watch the same group repeating themselves over and over, at least the leader of the SG wasn't going around hospitals 'shaking hands with everyone' a 'leader' that certainly does not give a flying **** about ANY lives.


and relax, and sorry for sounding nippy at you btw

” ...at least the leader of the SG wasn’t going round hospitals shaking hands with everyone ....”

She didn’t have to , to cause infection spread, she just builds hospitals with deadly contaminations built into the infrastructure.

[Peevemor]

” ...at least the leader of the SG wasn’t going round hospitals shaking hands with everyone ....”

She didn’t have to , to cause infection spread, she just builds hospitals with deadly contaminations built into the infrastructure.Of course she does.

[wookie70]

The only thing that stops covid in a country that needs thousands of trucks a day to survive is a lockdown. You agree the economy is knackered if we did this for coming up for 2 years yeah. Covid was widespread before we knew what it even was. You say close the world borders, 10% of the worlds gap is tourism, 13% of the world's jobs, 78 million of these lost. Stopping tourism will cost many lives its a balance.

No I don't agree the economy would be knackered and I don't see why you would have had to stop trucks coming in. You can mitigate the spread of the virus and take precautions with drivers and cargo and only essential goods should come in. The World Wars saw huge parts of the economy being closed overnight and focus given to an overarching priority. After those wars there was massive growth and a reduction of debt against gdp etc, if they are your measures of a good economy. My measure of a good economy is that those at the bottom are properly provided for and that health and other services are as required. The opposite usually happens when there is a boom particularly when the Tories are in power so a "strong" economy isn't necessarily a good measure of a nations health imo.

Tourism involving air travel is nuts to me anyway regardless of Covid. Go Greta and all that. I can see no issue closing borders for everything except essential services and goods. Life and death goods and services. Losing a job does not result in a loss of lives. Governments not supporting those who have lost their job does and there is plenty to go round, globally, if it was shared better. At least at the moment that may not last forever and tourism and consumerism would be high on the list of things that will kill.

I do think lockdowns are the best way to stop Covid spreading and it won't kill you if you don't catch it. They should have been far harder and faster and longer than they were. I agree that Covid was probably in the country before March 2019 but that doesn't mean you need to let it run wild and a severe earlier lockdown combined with some tracking and tracing may have got it under control, the first lockdown pretty much did anyway, and that could have been sustained and improved imo.

The citizens of the UK have been very compliant, especially during that first lockdown. Not sure why that is a surprise to behaviour phycologists as it only takes an advert on a bus to get 50% walking in your shadow. It was only when some sectors opened and some remained closed that slavish obedience started to fall imo. The governments lost any coherence they had in strategy and message at that point imo and never really made much effort to regain it. That first lockdown was pretty good. All the rest were very poor imo and I don't think lockdown is a word I would have used to described them. Now it is total reliance on the vaccination, which doesn't stop transmission. I'm sure we will get to the point that Covid is a seasonal flu but we will lose lives unnecessarily along the way. That is the choice Governments have made and continues to make.

[wookie70]

Uk not in the top 30 for covid deaths per head and will probably drop due to our vaccination and other countries getting hit now


COVID-19
DEATHS

EXCESS
DEATHS

EXCESS DEATHS PER 100K

Peru
Mar 23 2020-
Sep 5 2021 198,450 194,740 593
Bulgaria
Apr 20 2020-
Aug 29 2021 18,690 36,620 527
North Macedonia
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 5,480 10,810 519
Serbia
Apr 1 2020-
Aug 31 2021 7,280 31,600 464
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Apr 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 9,650 15,040 461
Russia
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 155,940 652,070 447
Lithuania
May 25 2020-
Aug 29 2021 4,490 11,510 412
South Africa
Apr 12 2020-
Sep 4 2021 83,320 234,980 394
Mexico
Mar 30 2020-
Aug 8 2021 244,400 485,980 386
Ecuador
Mar 23 2020-
Aug 29 2021 23,430 64,980 367
Bolivia
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 17,820 43,390 367
Belarus
Apr 1 2020-
Mar 31 2021 2,250 33,690 357
Albania
Jun 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 2,420 10,090 351
Romania
Mar 30 2020-
Jul 25 2021 34,220 65,250 338
Czech Republic
Mar 30 2020-
Aug 1 2021 30,360 35,220 329
Poland
Mar 30 2020-
Aug 15 2021 75,280 124,370 324
Slovakia
Sep 28 2020-
Jul 18 2021 12,480 17,360 318
Montenegro
Jul 27 2020-
Apr 25 2021 1,420 1,910 306
Brazil
Mar 1 2020-
Aug 31 2021 580,410 631,830 295
Hungary
Apr 6 2020-
Aug 15 2021 30,000 28,540 292
Moldova
Apr 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 6,190 11,430 284
Colombia
Apr 6 2020-
Jul 11 2021 112,790 135,850 270
Kazakhstan
Jun 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 9,040 51,070 269
Croatia
Apr 20 2020-
Aug 1 2021 8,220 10,880 268
Iran
Feb 24 2020-
Sep 5 2021 110,670 213,330 256
Italy
Mar 2 2020-
Jun 27 2021 127,440 148,560 246
United States
Mar 8 2020-
Aug 21 2021 614,640 788,460 241
Ukraine
Apr 1 2020-
Jul 31 2021 55,540 104,840 241
Kosovo
Jul 1 2020-
Jun 30 2021 2,210 4,260 240
Paraguay
Aug 1 2020-
Aug 31 2021 15,720 16,500 229
Spain
Mar 9 2020-
Aug 29 2021 83,980 101,950 215
Latvia
Oct 19 2020-
Aug 22 2021 2,520 4,100 215
Portugal
Mar 23 2020-
Aug 29 2021 17,710 21,540 209
Slovenia
Apr 6 2020-
Aug 22 2021 4,410 3,990 190
Chile
Apr 6 2020-
Aug 29 2021 36,850 33,020 188
Egypt
Apr 1 2020-
May 31 2021 15,050 194,260 186
Britain
Mar 14 2020-
Aug 27 2021 132,560 124,000 183

Thanks for that, useful info and perhaps the UK isn't as bad as we thought. It would be interesting to see how that played out over the months. Excess deaths is possibly the best measure assuming Governments are continuing to feed and shelter their citizens during a pandemic. I can't see the full table on the BBC page you provided the link for just. any link to the full set of results.

I found an interesting article in the FT. (https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938) They had comparisons of excess deaths above expected levels. For countries close to our size in Europe it looks like this

UK - 17% more deaths than expected
France - 10%
Italy - 18%
Germany - 3%
Spain - 17%

US is 18% and countries I feel Scotland should aspire to in many ways

Denmark - 0%
Norway - 1%
Sweden - 12%

That article has us 20th position in terms of deaths per million but the time period is different and is older than your data so shows the vaccine may be kicking in.

[basehibby]

Ironically many who believe it's all about government manipulation/control are those who also get all their "facts" and "news" from Facebook fed to them via the Facebook algorithm.

How is the vaccine risky and experimental? What proof have you got that teenagers don't need them?

There has been a lot of speculation and debate out there on social media etc - as you would expect considering the world shaking events we have witnessed over the last 18 months or so. There has also been much debate and theorising within the medical-scientific community - thing is though - much of that has been censored by a MSM that has largely become a massive propaganda outlet rather than a source of balanced and objective opinion - such that a "deep dive" is necessary to discover the breadth of opinion, analysis and evidence out there.

I can't speak for everybody but I have striven to become informed on the breadth of opinion prior to forming my own views - and that breadth of opinion includes a great many scientists, doctors, legal minds and other highly qualified experts who have NOT agreed with the rush to jab the world regardless of risk from the actual disease so relentlessly pushed by most MSM outlets. Many of these experts have at various stages and on a variety of sub-topics, been represented by groups like the Great Barrington Declaration, British Ivermectin Recommendation Development, The Rome Declaration and the Front Line Covid19 Critical Care Aliance. All of these organisations have been founded and organised by clinicians, academics and scientists and have presented a wealth of information which is available to anyone interested enough to seek it out and examine it.

I've already explained in a recent post above why these products should be considered experimental and won't repeat myself here. The evidence that teenagers stand to gain little if anything from them is easily extrapolated from sources like the Uk Government's Yellow Card database of adverse events and the US Center for Disease Control - which demonstrate without doubt that these products carry a significant risk of death and injury far in excess of that associated with any other vaccines in regular use today in the UK - and that the demographic for risk of death and injury from COVID19 is massively slanted towards the aged and away from the young. It is upon data such as this and from the first hand experience of clinicians that the above mentioned groups have built and stated their cases. They have been widely mocked, misrepresented and censored by media hacks who simultaneously and with seemingly limitless hypocrisy lecture us to "listen to the science". Well I have listened to these scientists, doctors and academics and have found their evidence compelling. Of course they are not the only voices and their opinions will also vary somewhat - many are advocates for vaccination but on a basis of risk vs benefit rather than one size fits all.

It's on evidence such as that referenced above that I have based my own view that the COVID vaxes should not be pushed out to teenagers and should certainly not be coerced or mandated upon whole populations.

[basehibby]

Your repeated claims of the vaccines being experimental have been debunked.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines-idUSL1N2M70MW

You obviously believe vaccines work so surely the more people that are vaccinated then the better the chance of reducing the spread. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

We could have been back to normal, or certainly a lot closer to it, if lockdown rule breakers, anti-maskers, anti-vaxers, Facebook fake news spreaders etc had done what the majority had done and tried together as a society to defeat this deadly virus. But no, they think they know better than virologists with years of experience because of some BS article that popped up in their Facebook news feed. That, in my opinion, is the criminal behaviour.

Sorry but the Reuters word salad you present is nothing like a "debunk". An Emergency Use Authorisation is not a full approval and has only been necessary for these products because they have not had time to complete the full trials necessary for them to be granted full approval.

As per the UK Gov article linked here (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-jcvi-statement/jvci-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-15-july-2021) with regards to the prevalence of the life threatening condition myocarditis among teenagers "Data on the incidence of these events in children and young people are currently limited, and the longer-term health effects from the myocarditis events reported are not yet well understood." - I don't know about you but THAT is the definition of experimental in my eyes. ie they don't quite know what's going to happen yet so they are watching to find out!

This of course does not even mention the as yet unknown effect of having COVID-19 spike proteins - known to cause clotting - proliferating and conglomerating around various bodilly organs over time.

I accept that there was a pressing need to protect the vulnerable and that this was sufficient justification to grant EUAs. I do NOT accept that pushing these products upon extremely low risk subjects such as healthy children and teenagers can be considered a safe or ethical practice while so much remains unknown. Neither do I agree that it is acceptable to coerce people with perfectly reasonable concerns - or who may even have natural immunity (proven in a recent Israeli study of 2.5 million subjects to be between 7 and 13 times more effective than vaccination for lasting immunity to COVID19) by means of fascistic bullying tactics like the threat of exclusion from society or employment.

[Stairway 2 7]

Sorry but the Reuters word salad you present is nothing like a "debunk". An Emergency Use Authorisation is not a full approval and has only been necessary for these products because they have not had time to complete the full trials necessary for them to be granted full approval.

As per the UK Gov article linked here (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-jcvi-statement/jvci-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-15-july-2021) with regards to the prevalence of the life threatening condition myocarditis among teenagers "Data on the incidence of these events in children and young people are currently limited, and the longer-term health effects from the myocarditis events reported are not yet well understood." - I don't know about you but THAT is the definition of experimental in my eyes. ie they don't quite know what's going to happen yet so they are watching to find out!

This of course does not even mention the as yet unknown effect of having COVID-19 spike proteins - known to cause clotting - proliferating and conglomerating around various bodilly organs over time.

I accept that there was a pressing need to protect the vulnerable and that this was sufficient justification to grant EUAs. I do NOT accept that pushing these products upon extremely low risk subjects such as healthy children and teenagers can be considered a safe or ethical practice while so much remains unknown. Neither do I agree that it is acceptable to coerce people with perfectly reasonable concerns - or who may even have natural immunity (proven in a recent Israeli study of 2.5 million subjects to be between 7 and 13 times more effective than vaccination for lasting immunity to COVID19) by means of fascistic bullying tactics like the threat of exclusion from society or employment.

Can I send this again to you. This thread explains the safety in simple terms non patronising terms, from someone who would know more than any journalist

Please read this thread from Andrew crowxford a great immunologist, on the safety of vaccines. I'll read anything you put forward if you read this please. All ill effects of a vaccine show up early.

http://Www.twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881?lang=en

[JimBHibees]

The app doesn't show your photo.

I know it doesn't I was explaining that the process of setting up in the app there was the photo ID bit then the selfie bit which assume is to verify you are the same person as the photo ID

[JimBHibees]

The app for checking doesn't show a photo. No idea why showing a selfie of yourself on a phone would prove anything. Have we got our wires crossed and are talking about different things.

I think we have I was talking about the process to set up. As it was was at playhouse last night and showed qr code to steward who waved you in.

[basehibby]

Can I send this again to you. This thread explains the safety in simple terms non patronising terms, from someone who would know more than any journalist

Please read this thread from Andrew crowxford a great immunologist, on the safety of vaccines. I'll read anything you put forward if you read this please. All ill effects of a vaccine show up early.

http://Www.twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881?lang=en

I'll check it out when I get a chance cheers - lots of replies on this thread and got work to do:boo hoo:

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

Half way down the page under three ways to measure number of deaths.

Thanks. Is the Scottish figure you're quoting not deaths where covid is mentioned on the death certificate in which case the UK figure is 161,798? That's a genuine question as I can't find a specified excess death figure for Scotland, but got this trying to find one:
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/node/3653

[wookie70]

Thanks. Is the Scottish figure you're quoting not deaths where covid is mentioned on the death certificate in which case the UK figure is 161,798? That's a genuine question as I can't find a specified excess death figure for Scotland, but got this trying to find one:
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/node/3653

There is plenty info here (https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/covid19/covid-deaths-21-report-week-40.pdf) if you use the links at the back there is a wealth of information on excess deaths but it might take a bit of legwork to get the figure you want. Very interesting though as it is broken down by region, age and cause etc

[wookie70]

I think we have I was talking about the process to set up. As it was was at playhouse last night and showed qr code to steward who waved you in.

On the same page now. I dare say it does make it a bit more secure in terms of accessing your own data and then having the app show that. However, if that isn't cross referenced at the point of the check does it make a difference particularly if your mate went through the process on both your phone and theirs and their passport is now on both phones(not 100% sure this is possible but can't see why it wouldn't be).

[wookie70]

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881?lang=en

Please read this thread from Andrew crowxford a great immunologist, on the safety of vaccines. I'll read anything you put forward if you read this please. All ill effects of a vaccine show up early.

As for the cliche of your protected so why do you care if others aren't, because unvaccinated produce more viral load. Vaccines are unbelievable at stopping severe disease but you can still catch it. I don't want someone with a high viral load near me and my dad and kids at the football


Thanks for the link. I can't say I understood all that but I got the idea. It has certainly helped my understanding of the long term effects and how they would have became evident at an early stage of testing. Still a wee bit away for those trial to complete but the danger of anything cropping up appears non existent. As an old overweight asthmatic the vaccine was a no brainer for me anyway as the risk of Covid outweighed the risk of the vaccine massively and I dare say I could have caught Covid and died before the second part of the trial was complete.

I went when I got my letter but I was glad that millions had went before me with very little evidence of serious problems. I got ill for about a week after the first one, no issues with the second. I expect to be ill if I get a Moderna booster going by what my mates' experiences have been. The week or so I felt crap after the first vaccine could easily have been similar to what I felt if catching Covid but I didn't feel that was a dice worth rolling and lockdown and masks have saved me a few weeks of flu anyway so not any worse off.

I wouldn't really want anyone with viral load near me but the plan is to have thousands or even tens of thousands who could have that load sitting next to each other. My love of Hibs means I will make an exception from my Hermit like life for my team.

In a stadium is the fan to the left who has already had Covid but is unvaccinated more a risk to you than the double jagged one to the right, not much in it from recent surveys I have read. Some reports suggest there isn't much in it between those who are vaccinated and those who are not assuming a good time has passed since vaccination. Of course those vaccinated have less chance of catching Covid so that is a big advantage over the unvaccinated who have not had Covid.

[Stairway 2 7]

Class article worth reading.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/620161/

No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.

[Glory Lurker]

After all my pontificating in favour of vaccine passports I really must remember to sort mine out before tomorrow. It's a pity in a way that it's not being fully enforced tomorrow as even I'd acknowledge the humour in turning up and realising I hadn't done what I needed to do to get in.

[tamig]

Class article worth reading.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/620161/

No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.
I came across that article when looking at some of the claims made by some posters on this thread. Great article 👍

[SteveHFC]

Was at Joker live in concert at the Usher Hall tonight and wasn’t asked to show my vaccine passport.

Tomorrow will be really interesting at the game.

[wookie70]

Class article worth reading.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/620161/

No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.

There are articles that do suggest (https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074)vaccinated and unvaccinated have similar viral loads, when infected with Delta Covid. Vaccinated people are less likely to have it though in the first place so that would make a difference. If you have someone with Covid either side and one is vaccinated, especially a while back, and the other hasn't been vaccinated then is one more dangerous to you than the other. Do the scientists know, I'm not convinced.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20211001/Similar-viral-load-in-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-individuals-infected-with-SARS-CoV-2-Delta-variant.aspx

[Sir David Gray]

Was at Joker live in concert at the Usher Hall tonight and wasn’t asked to show my vaccine passport.

Tomorrow will be really interesting at the game.

I take it this was a seated event with less than 10,000 in attendance? If so the vaccine passport isn't in use at such events.

[SteveHFC]

I take it this was a seated event with less than 10,000 in attendance? If so the vaccine passport isn't in use at such events.

Indeed.

:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

There are articles that do suggest (https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074)vaccinated and unvaccinated have similar viral loads, when infected with Delta Covid. Vaccinated people are less likely to have it though in the first place so that would make a difference. If you have someone with Covid either side and one is vaccinated, especially a while back, and the other hasn't been vaccinated then is one more dangerous to you than the other. Do the scientists know, I'm not convinced.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20211001/Similar-viral-load-in-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-individuals-infected-with-SARS-CoV-2-Delta-variant.aspx

Vaccinated People spread covid less that is just a fact. From the Canadian study below and scot gov study last month, 90% chance of not getting it in the first place. So people saying what difference does it make if vaccinated person next to me, well the chance is he doesn't have it!

Also whilst viral load is the same at peak the vaccinated are infectious for a much shorter time, also they have much less viral load combined over the infection
https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1442485758728753153

We already know due to the 70% drop in household transmission in vaccinated groups that the spread is less. So extrapolate that to a stadium size and its beyond ridiculous to say a vaccinated stadium, isn't unbelievably safer event

For waining Canada is showing the same as the UK, really small waining due to first and second doses being spread out. So any study from us or eu isn't comparable to us as its clearly better to spread the doses.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1447921594064674817

[Skol]

I agree with the principle of vaccine passports as we need to get as many people vaccinated as possible. However the practicalities of implementing it are significant and it’s also clear that it’s not achieving its aim. The sceptics see it as even more reason to avoid the vaccine.

It’s hard to know what to do about this as the people refusing the vaccine are getting their information from other sources and just rail against the official advice.

[overdrive]

Just get the vaccine. I’ve got covid just now and I’m glad I’m double vaccinated as I’ve felt awful for a week now. I’d dread to think what it would have been like without the vaccine.

[Peevemor]

I agree with the principle of vaccine passports as we need to get as many people vaccinated as possible. However the practicalities of implementing it are significant and it’s also clear that it’s not achieving its aim. The sceptics see it as even more reason to avoid the vaccine.

It’s hard to know what to do about this as the people refusing the vaccine are getting their information from other sources and just rail against the official advice.I'm bored of saying how easily it's been implemented in France (that's almost 3 months now). Why should it be more difficult in Scotland?

[JimBHibees]

Just get the vaccine. I’ve got covid just now and I’m glad I’m double vaccinated as I’ve felt awful for a week now. I’d dread to think what it would have been like without the vaccine.

Well said. Hope you get better soon.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm bored of saying how easily it's been implemented in France (that's almost 3 months now). Why should it be more difficult in Scotland?

Not just France dozens of countries round the world, do people think Scotland is less competent

[Peevemor]

Not just France dozens of countries round the world, do people think Scotland is less competentPossibly, but I'm living with it in France and have yet to be inconvenienced. I've been to various events & places where they're required and it's always gone smoothly. I haven't been to a match yet but I know a few folk who were at Rennes v PSG a couple of weeks ago (28k) - in general they gave themselves 10-15 minutes more than usual to get in, but didn't need it in the end.

[Stairway 2 7]

Possibly, but I'm living with it in France and have yet to be inconvenienced. I've been to various events & places where they're required and it's always gone smoothly. I haven't been to a match yet but I know a few folk who were at Rennes v PSG a couple of weeks ago (28k) - in general they gave themselves 10-15 minutes more than usual to get in, but didn't need it in the end.
Sorry I came across wrong. Dozens of countries now using it flawlessly and more seemingly going to follow

[Peevemor]

Sorry I came across wrong. Dozens of countries now using it flawlessly and more seemingly going to follow[emoji106]

[Santa Cruz]

Sorry I came across wrong. Dozens of countries now using it flawlessly and more seemingly going to follow

It's causing problems in Italy. I read the other day about 2,000 port workers going on strike in protest against it which was causing havoc for the HGV drivers. I think the report said 6m unvaxxed in the country, is that comparable with UK figures (I only check Scotland's)?

[greenlex]

It's causing problems in Italy. I read the other day about 2,000 port workers going on strike in protest against it which was causing havoc for the HGV drivers. I think the report said 6m unvaxxed in the country, is that comparable with UK figures (I only check Scotland's)?

The passport process isn’t the problem in Italy . The problem is the government are not allowing people to go to work unless they are vaccinated. Only 80%are. We think we have a fascist leaning government here and are inconvenienced.

[Santa Cruz]

The process isn’t the problem in Italy. The problem is the government are not allowing people to go to work unless they are vaccinated. Only 80%are. We think we have a fascist leaning government here.

Yeah sorry, I wasn't meaning the process, I meant the passport scheme. I should have made that clearer.

It's not meeting it's intended objective here, the numbers aren't increasing in any meaningful way. The SG will need to widen the net on this, I don't see they have any other alternative.

[Hibrandenburg]

Possibly, but I'm living with it in France and have yet to be inconvenienced. I've been to various events & places where they're required and it's always gone smoothly. I haven't been to a match yet but I know a few folk who were at Rennes v PSG a couple of weeks ago (28k) - in general they gave themselves 10-15 minutes more than usual to get in, but didn't need it in the end.

It's the same here in Germany. If it wasn't for the face masks in indoor public places, you'd be forgiven for forgetting there's a pandemic going on. Thanks to the vaccine, nearly normal life has returned with only a few small inconveniences and an ever decreasing number of radges that still haven't grasped the concept of communal compliance.

I've just started a new job that means I have to pull on a mask about 40 times a day, it's a pain in the arse but a small price to pay for an otherwise restriction free life.

The vaccine pass has given me back my freedom and all this pish about it being oppressive is just that, pish.

[lapsedhibee]

Possibly, but I'm living with it in France and have yet to be inconvenienced. I've been to various events & places where they're required and it's always gone smoothly. I haven't been to a match yet but I know a few folk who were at Rennes v PSG a couple of weeks ago (28k) - in general they gave themselves 10-15 minutes more than usual to get in, but didn't need it in the end.


It's the same here in Germany. If it wasn't for the face masks in indoor public places, you'd be forgiven for forgetting there's a pandemic going on. Thanks to the vaccine, nearly normal life has returned with only a few small inconveniences and an ever decreasing number of radges that still haven't grasped the concept of communal compliance.

I've just started a new job that means I have to pull on a mask about 40 times a day, it's a pain in the arse but a small price to pay for an otherwise restriction free life.

The vaccine pass has given me back my freedom and all this pish about it being oppressive is just that, pish.

Genuine question for expats. In the parliaments of France and Germany is there any equivalent, or even near equivalent, of Desmond ******* Swayne standing up and dribbling on about 'face nappies'?

[Peevemor]

Genuine question for expats. In the parliaments of France and Germany is there any equivalent, or even near equivalent, of Desmond ******* Swayne standing up and dribbling on about 'face nappies'?Macron currently has an enormous overall majority and the parliamentary debates are extremely poor. Most of the main measures have been voted through in an almost empty house.

Another factor is that many of the big hitters from other parties aren't even elected to the parliament, and are often involved in either local or European politics. For example the socialist party's candidate for the upcoming presidential elections, Anne Hidalgo, is currently the Mayor(ess) of Paris.

But yes, there are of course reactionary and attention seeking bams who, as in the UK, get too much exposure in the MMS, mainly because they attract readers/viewers.

[Skol]

I'm bored of saying how easily it's been implemented in France (that's almost 3 months now). Why should it be more difficult in Scotland?

Let’s see how it goes today at Easter road. Ultimately it will be ok as only spot checks will be carried out and not all attendees will be checked. There is a good chance unvaccinated will get in.

I are there stats for the effect this had on vaccinations in France.

[lapsedhibee]

Macron currently has an enormous overall majority and the parliamentary debates are extremely poor. Most of the main measures have been voted through in an almost empty house.

Another factor is that many of the big hitters from other parties aren't even elected to the parliament, and are often involved in either local or European politics. For example the socialist party's candidate for the upcoming presidential elections, Anne Hidalgo, is currently the Mayor(ess) of Paris.

But yes, there are of course reactionary and attention seeking bams who, as in the UK, get too much exposure in the MMS, mainly because they attract readers/viewers.

:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm bored of saying how easily it's been implemented in France (that's almost 3 months now). Why should it be more difficult in Scotland?

Do you not remember, too wee, too poor and definitely too stupid.

[Stairway 2 7]

Let’s see how it goes today at Easter road. Ultimately it will be ok as only spot checks will be carried out and not all attendees will be checked. There is a good chance unvaccinated will get in.

I are there stats for the effect this had on vaccinations in France.
Yes somewhere in this thread, they went absolutely through the roof

[Peevemor]

Let’s see how it goes today at Easter road. Ultimately it will be ok as only spot checks will be carried out and not all attendees will be checked. There is a good chance unvaccinated will get in.

I are there stats for the effect this had on vaccinations in France.Stats or suppositions?

It was the beginning of May that vaccination was openly available for those under 60, then 55, 50 etc. up until the beginning of July when it was open to all adults.

The vaccine passport was introduced on July 21st.

The supposition part is how many say 20-40 year olds would have got vaccinated without it.

They're currently saying that 85% of over 12 year old are now fully vaccinated. I doubt that would have happened without the pass. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211016/f481e90957e86518de2bb68bc442294f.jpg

[Skol]

Do you not remember, too wee, too poor and definitely too stupid.

It seems my post is being interpreted as anti SNP. That is not the case.

[Skol]

Stats or suppositions?

It was the beginning of May that vaccination was openly available for those under 69, then 55, 50 etc. up until the beginning of July when it was open to all adults.

The vaccine passport was introduced on July 21st.

The supposition part is how many say 20-40 year old would have got vaccinated without it.

They're currently saying that 85% of over 12 year old are now fully vaccinated. I doubt that would have happened without the pass. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211016/f481e90957e86518de2bb68bc442294f.jpg
Thanks. Let’s hope we see similar here albeit the response of some on here suggests otherwise. We can only hope they are the minority.

[Moulin Yarns]

It seems my post is being interpreted as anti SNP. That is not the case.

Naw, that was just a response to the last bit of Peevemor's post.

[Ozyhibby]

I downloaded the app no probs and it’s just been accepted in a Spanish restaurant. Not sure what the fuss is about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wookie70]

Vaccinated People spread covid less that is just a fact. From the Canadian study below and scot gov study last month, 90% chance of not getting it in the first place. So people saying what difference does it make if vaccinated person next to me, well the chance is he doesn't have it!

Also whilst viral load is the same at peak the vaccinated are infectious for a much shorter time, also they have much less viral load combined over the infection
https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1442485758728753153

We already know due to the 70% drop in household transmission in vaccinated groups that the spread is less. So extrapolate that to a stadium size and its beyond ridiculous to say a vaccinated stadium, isn't unbelievably safer event

For waining Canada is showing the same as the UK, really small waining due to first and second doses being spread out. So any study from us or eu isn't comparable to us as its clearly better to spread the doses.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1447921594064674817

I read all those with interest. Twitter is a terrible viewing platform for this type of thing. That first study is a tiny group of people in the US. I'll simplify rather than tossing surveys at each other and go with the latest Scottish Government position I can find. There is insufficient data to say what transmission rates are among vaccinated and unvaccinated citizens (https://www.gov.scot/publications/covid-vaccine-certification-evidence-paper/pages/10/). That is the current SG position from what I can see. There are some further details to that mentioned below but none that have given weight enough for the Scottish Government to post a figure to say transmission is different between those vaccinated and those not, assuming they have Covid.

I acknowledged above that you are less likely to catch Covid and made sure my example of sitting next to someone was when the vaccinated and unvaccinated were both infected.

I am not contesting a vaccinated stadium isn't a safer place to be than an unvaccinated one. The vast majority of a stadium will be vaccinated due to the population being mostly vaccinated so that scenario doesn't exist.

Not having gatherings of 10s of thousands would be far safer but that appears to be fine with Scottish Government. All those thousands, with more chance of having covid because they are meeting in massive groups, coming back into society and mixing with unvaccinated individuals who were denied entry appears to be fine with the Government. That assumes large outdoor events are an issue with transmission(The SG say they are by passporting them) and I haven't seen anything that suggests they are and given the government have made a distinction that seated is safer than unseated then Easter Road may be a safer place than Tesco, who knows. I have to make the presumption that large seated outdoor events are dangerous and more so than supermarkets etc as why would you need passports to get in one and not the other.

If the SG want the young vaccinated then either mandate them to be by making it compulsory or convince them that it is the right thing to do in terms of others safety. The young can concern themselves with their own safety as that is their business. Full stadiums don't exist in a vacuum. Vaccinated and unvaccinated people are mixing constantly on public transport, at work, shopping etc etc.

I posted this below elsewhere so it is 3 days out of date but as passports appear to be all about getting the young vaccinated it is applicable here. The announcement of the passport scheme may have actually reduced the take up among the young. I certainly haven't heard the Sg saying anything about its success and it is a scheme that means youngsters would have already had to be vaccinated to have full freedom from Monday.

First and second doses combined in the last week for 18-29 year olds 11094, September 15th was 34174 and 15 August 54948. Looking back for the week ending Sep 8th around when the Passports were announced the same age group had 46888.

First doses are also down so less 18-29 year olds starting the process of being vaccinated. Oct 12th, 1st doses from last 7 days - 3163, September 15th 5062 and August 15th 5770.

The Passport scheme may well have done more to harm than good imo and it isn't even implemented fully yet. The sizes of groups and the differences between seated, unseated and inside and outside haven't been well explained. We now have a policy where 9999 seated inside is deemed not worthy of a passport(I appreciate not many venues like that if any but the policy is there) but 10000 seated outside is. That tells the public that the line between inside and outside is blurred and being ignored by SG. Everything I have read says being outside is far safer. Policies have to make sense and restrictions need to drive behaviours that are targeted. I think Passports has done the opposite so far.

[Keith_M]

Tried downloading the NHS Scotland Vaccine Certificate App and get a message saying it's installed, but there's no link on my phone to open it.

I can click on the 'Installed' link on Google Play but it just sends me on an endless Sign in loop.

I'm not impressed.

[Keith_M]

Status now changed from Installed to Pending, and a wee circle going round and round and round and round and....

[Hibrandenburg]

Genuine question for expats. In the parliaments of France and Germany is there any equivalent, or even near equivalent, of Desmond ******* Swayne standing up and dribbling on about 'face nappies'?

Yes, the AfD have been wooing the "Alternative Thinker Scene" and other nutjobs by openly spreading conspiracy guff about a Merkel dictatorship and other tinfoil hat stuff about Covid conspiracies. A recent murder of a petrol station attendant by an AfD follower who refused to put on a mask when asked to has widely been associated to extremist rhetoric from AfD parliamentarians. It's no coincidence that the infection rate is higher in areas of Germany where the AfD have the most support.

[lapsedhibee]

Yes, the AfD have been wooing the "Alternative Thinker Scene" and other nutjobs by openly spreading conspiracy guff about a Merkel dictatorship and other tinfoil hat stuff about Covid conspiracies. A recent murder of a petrol station attendant by an AfD follower who refused to put on a mask when asked to has widely been associated to extremist rhetoric from AfD parliamentarians. It's no coincidence that the infection rate is higher in areas of Germany where the AfD have the most support.

:aok:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Does the third jab get added to the details? My Mrs had it two weeks ago but it's only showing one and two.

[Skol]

Not sure what it was like for others but I saw no evidence of any checks being carried out c14:45

[Sir David Gray]

Does the third jab get added to the details? My Mrs had it two weeks ago but it's only showing one and two.

I don't believe it does. You don't need to get the booster in order to comply with this new law so it's not included on the passport as far as I'm aware.

[Hibrandenburg]

Does the third jab get added to the details? My Mrs had it two weeks ago but it's only showing one and two.

The German app has an expiry date. I'm guessing boosters will extend the expiry time. Does the Scottish app have one?

[degenerated]

I'm bored of saying how easily it's been implemented in France (that's almost 3 months now). Why should it be more difficult in Scotland?I'm guessing France doesn't have hostile media deliberately trying to obfuscate everything the government says

[Sir David Gray]

The German app has an expiry date. I'm guessing boosters will extend the expiry time. Does the Scottish app have one?

Not to my knowledge although clearly there will come a time when being double vaccinated during 2021 will no longer count for anything.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Not to my knowledge although clearly there will come a time when being double vaccinated during 2021 will no longer count for anything.

Yes

[Glory Lurker]

I'm guessing France doesn't have hostile media deliberately trying to obfuscate everything the government says

C'est vrai, ça.

[Moulin Yarns]

The German app has an expiry date. I'm guessing boosters will extend the expiry time. Does the Scottish app have one?

Yes
It tells you the date of the vaccine and when it is due to be expired.

[Jay]

Yes
It tells you the date of the vaccine and when it is due to be expired.

I'm not sure it does. Can you point me in the direction of an expiry date. Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Mine has months and days since I had the vaccine but I honestly can't see an expiry date

[marinello59]

I'm not sure it does. Can you point me in the direction of an expiry date. Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Mine has months and days since I had the vaccine but I honestly can't see an expiry date

The printed QR codes have an expiry date. That isn’t the case on the App.

[Sir David Gray]

The printed QR codes have an expiry date. That isn’t the case on the App.

Yes correct, same with the PDF you were previously encouraged to download prior to the app being released.

That was valid for one year from the date it was downloaded.

[Jay]

The printed QR codes have an expiry date. That isn’t the case on the App.

Ah I don't have that. My printed one came with no barcodes . Thank you :aok:

[wookie70]

Ah I don't have that. My printed one came with no barcodes . Thank you :aok:

Best to check it is valid or it may be a hassle for the next game. I ordered one when the passports were announced and it is the same as yours. To be fair there is now a download on the NHS website that allows you to get a PDF with the QR codes which is easy to get if you know your log in. I downloaded that and it seems to work fine.

[Jay]

Best to check it is valid or it may be a hassle for the next game. I ordered one when the passports were announced and it is the same as yours. To be fair there is now a download on the NHS website that allows you to get a PDF with the QR codes which is easy to get if you know your log in. I downloaded that and it seems to work fine.

I have it on the app. I think I can print the pdf with the QR codes but I don't have a printer so I'm hoping the app works. Even if it doesn't scan for some reason they can see when I had my jags. I'm about due number 3.

[wookie70]

I have it on the app. I think I can print the pdf with the QR codes but I don't have a printer so I'm hoping the app works. Even if it doesn't scan for some reason they can see when I had my jags. I'm about due number 3.

No idea about the app. I'll use it if I absolutely need to but that won't be for a while especially as Hibs have advised paper copies are best

[Jay]

No idea about the app. I'll use it if I absolutely need to but that won't be for a while especially as Hibs have advised paper copies are best

Which I don't understand. The app gives my name and date of vaccines as well as the QR code . I think they were being extra precautions I'm not sure they can refuse me entry on the grounds of the vaccine if I can provide the info on the app which is less likely to be fake than a paper copy. I'm sure it'll be fine.

[Sir David Gray]

Which I don't understand. The app gives my name and date of vaccines as well as the QR code . I think they were being extra precautions I'm not sure they can refuse me entry on the grounds of the vaccine if I can provide the info on the app which is less likely to be fake than a paper copy. I'm sure it'll be fine.

There's no way they'll refuse the app after that's been rolled out specifically for this new law.

Anyone providing the app, the downloaded PDF or the paper version will be fine.

[hibbyfraelibby]

The printed QR codes have an expiry date. That isn’t the case on the App.

The expiry date on the app is part of the QR code and refreshes every time you log in with your pin to stop you screenshoting it. Its sleakit.

[Sir David Gray]

The expiry date on the app is part of the QR code and refreshes every time you log in with your pin to stop you screenshoting it. Its sleakit.

I'm able to screenshot the QR codes on my app? :confused:

[hibbyfraelibby]

I'm able to screenshot the QR codes on my app? :confused:

Try using the NHS scanner on it. It shows the expiry date

[basehibby]

Trouble is , Scotland has not saved more lives.

Checking the latest stats for excess deaths shows there have now been more excess deaths per head of population in Scotland , during covid, than the average for the whole of the UK.

I am a stern critic of the Scottish Government regarding many of their policies with regards to COVID-19 - but there are two factors which should not be ignored in comparing the excess death rates of Scotland & England - and these are the slightly higher rates of obesity in Scotland as compared to England (29% vs 27.5%) and, possibly of more significance, the higher levels of Vitamin D deficiency in Scotland due to our northern geography. Both obesity and Vit D deficiency are strong markers towards high risk of hospitalisation and death from COVID-19 and, in my opinion, are much more likely to have resulted in a higher excess death rate in Scotland than any marginal differences in policy.

[basehibby]

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881?lang=en

Please read this thread from Andrew crowxford a great immunologist, on the safety of vaccines. I'll read anything you put forward if you read this please. All ill effects of a vaccine show up early.

As for the cliche of your protected so why do you care if others aren't, because unvaccinated produce more viral load. Vaccines are unbelievable at stopping severe disease but you can still catch it. I don't want someone with a high viral load near me and my dad and kids at the football

Hi Stairway - I've read the tweets you presented and, on the face of it the man's points make plenty of sense - however - he leaves out a number of very important points:

1) The COVID Vaccines have already been proven to carry risks of side effects (see Yellow Card & VAERS databases) and the risk benefit analysis for those not at high risk from COVID-19 - even just considering effects that show up early - are very far from conclusive - particularly for younger age groups.
2) The design of all the COVID-19 vaccines (as far as I am aware - there are quite a few!) center around either injection of or stimulation of production within the body of COVID-19 "spike proteins". Bio-distribution studies from the Japanese Regulatory Agency concerning the mRNA jabs have indicated that rather than remaining at the injection site, Spike Proteins have been shown to accumulate in quite high concentrations in a number of tissues such as the spleen, bone marrow, the liver, the adrenal glands and the ovaries. The spike proteins have been demonstrated to be bio-active and toxic and the long term effects of such accumulations are NOT yet known.

These are a couple of the issues that have left me thoroughly unconvinced as to the safety of the COVID vaccines - an impression that was further reinforced a couple of months back when I discovered that a friend who had passed away in the spring after developing bloodclots on the lungs leading to cardiac arrest and death had done so a mere 5 days after being vaccinated.

Most of my friends and familly have been vaccinated and I am relieved that all of them with the exception of my friend mentioned above appear to be OK. Nevertheless I do not consider it ethicaly, logically or morally right to put the lives and futures of younger generations at risk - or to coerce others into partaking in what is in effect a mass human experiment - particularly given the existence of repurposed treatments which HAVE been demonstrated to be effective against the disease such as Ivermectin (don't believe the hype - the great mass of data indicates it is exceedingly safe and works very well).

You said you would consider whatever article I brought to the table - so I would urge you to listen - in it's entirety - to the following interview in which "Dr. Bret Weinstein interviewed (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/mrna-technology-covid-vaccine-lipid-nanoparticles-accumulate-ovaries/) Dr. Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, and Steve Kirsch, philanthropist and tech entrepreneur". During the interview pretty much all of the points I've raised above are addressed. I want to emphasise here - Malone has been smeared and maligned since this interview was released but is without doubt an authorotative voice within his field - he has his name all over patents which mark the advent of mRNA vaccine tech. Of course there are other voices but his is one very much deserving of an audience ....

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/censored-dark-horse-podcast-bret-weinstein-robert-malone-inventor-mrna-vaccine-technology/?fbclid=IwAR3UCSSPWFZGOkQbJj8fHfRvmq4YxkP_AXk7Y7kn B04meiHgNgMzGDavEms

(https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/censored-dark-horse-podcast-bret-weinstein-robert-malone-inventor-mrna-vaccine-technology/?fbclid=IwAR3UCSSPWFZGOkQbJj8fHfRvmq4YxkP_AXk7Y7kn B04meiHgNgMzGDavEms)

[Skol]

I am a stern critic of the Scottish Government regarding many of their policies with regards to COVID-19 - but there are two factors which should not be ignored in comparing the excess death rates of Scotland & England - and these are the slightly higher rates of obesity in Scotland as compared to England (29% vs 27.5%) and, possibly of more significance, the higher levels of Vitamin D deficiency in Scotland due to our northern geography. Both obesity and Vit D deficiency are strong markers towards high risk of hospitalisation and death from COVID-19 and, in my opinion, are much more likely to have resulted in a higher excess death rate in Scotland than any marginal differences in policy.

Would these factors not be present every year and may lead to a higher death rate but not an excess death rate?

[Stairway 2 7]

Hi Stairway - I've read the tweets you presented and, on the face of it the man's points make plenty of sense - however - he leaves out a number of very important points:

1) The COVID Vaccines have already been proven to carry risks of side effects (see Yellow Card & VAERS databases) and the risk benefit analysis for those not at high risk from COVID-19 - even just considering effects that show up early - are very far from conclusive - particularly for younger age groups.
2) The design of all the COVID-19 vaccines (as far as I am aware - there are quite a few!) center around either injection of or stimulation of production within the body of COVID-19 "spike proteins". Bio-distribution studies from the Japanese Regulatory Agency concerning the mRNA jabs have indicated that rather than remaining at the injection site, Spike Proteins have been shown to accumulate in quite high concentrations in a number of tissues such as the spleen, bone marrow, the liver, the adrenal glands and the ovaries. The spike proteins have been demonstrated to be bio-active and toxic and the long term effects of such accumulations are NOT yet known.

These are a couple of the issues that have left me thoroughly unconvinced as to the safety of the COVID vaccines - an impression that was further reinforced a couple of months back when I discovered that a friend who had passed away in the spring after developing bloodclots on the lungs leading to cardiac arrest and death had done so a mere 5 days after being vaccinated.

Most of my friends and familly have been vaccinated and I am relieved that all of them with the exception of my friend mentioned above appear to be OK. Nevertheless I do not consider it ethicaly, logically or morally right to put the lives and futures of younger generations at risk - or to coerce others into partaking in what is in effect a mass human experiment - particularly given the existence of repurposed treatments which HAVE been demonstrated to be effective against the disease such as Ivermectin (don't believe the hype - the great mass of data indicates it is exceedingly safe and works very well).

You said you would consider whatever article I brought to the table - so I would urge you to listen - in it's entirety - to the following interview in which "Dr. Bret Weinstein interviewed (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/mrna-technology-covid-vaccine-lipid-nanoparticles-accumulate-ovaries/) Dr. Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, and Steve Kirsch, philanthropist and tech entrepreneur". During the interview pretty much all of the points I've raised above are addressed. I want to emphasise here - Malone has been smeared and maligned since this interview was released but is without doubt an authorotative voice within his field - he has his name all over patents which mark the advent of mRNA vaccine tech. Of course there are other voices but his is one very much deserving of an audience ....

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/censored-dark-horse-podcast-bret-weinstein-robert-malone-inventor-mrna-vaccine-technology/?fbclid=IwAR3UCSSPWFZGOkQbJj8fHfRvmq4YxkP_AXk7Y7kn B04meiHgNgMzGDavEms

(https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/censored-dark-horse-podcast-bret-weinstein-robert-malone-inventor-mrna-vaccine-technology/?fbclid=IwAR3UCSSPWFZGOkQbJj8fHfRvmq4YxkP_AXk7Y7kn B04meiHgNgMzGDavEms)

Malone is a complete nut job and a swindler for profit, particularly from ivermectin which clearly doesn't work. He was one of over 200 that worked on the development of mRNA but Katalin Karikó or Derrick Rossi were by far the main players, mrna was being studied in 1978 12 years before he was involved in it.

On point 1 your arguing with the best Immunologist of his generation. Millions have safely been given to teens now so the argument is falling apart. Unless you can find anyone with half the expertise as Andrew crowxford, who says any side effects would already be evident.

On point 2 I'm sorry but you've been duped. The Japanese Regulatory authority stuff was faked by antivaxers god knows why. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2NX1J6

There's almost 7 billion vaccines been given the arguments that they are unsafe is getting dafter. I'm sorry about your friend dying but if it was from a vaccine he's one of the very unfortunate 200,000/1. It would be better if no one died from the cure but comparison to the horror of covid it's a small price.

We've done ivermectin in a thread. The main problem is it doesn't work.. The few studies that showed it worked were proven to be fake.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809

It's just bizarre. Why would we not want and promote a cheap drug if it worked, we have with molnupiravir, remdesivir and many more. That blows the big pharma thing out the water as the cost pennies. Lots of antivirals get pushed by these groups but they are over 1000 dollars each, hopefully a lot cheaper when in pill form soon.

Why is there a group heavily linked to trump qanon pushing antivax and ivermectin so heavily, especially to go as far as forging multiple scientific documents. One could be profit. One of the biggest group promoting ivermectin is American frontline doctors, it was found out the group are getting millions from prescriptions. https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/

Your clearly intelligent but I'd say pick your sources. There is no mainstream media cover up but if you don't trust the media. 99.9% of qualified immunologists and biologists say its safe and have been pleading for people to take it, thankfully its worked with well over 90% rolling up their sleeve

[Stairway 2 7]

Would these factors not be present every year and may lead to a higher death rate but not an excess death rate?

Yes and vitamin d doesn't really equate with scandavia having a lower rate than us and Spain a higher rate

[basehibby]

Would these factors not be present every year and may lead to a higher death rate but not an excess death rate?

Yes they are present every year - but COVID is not and obesity and Vitamin D deficiency each make an individual far more likely to die from COVID.

[basehibby]

Yes and vitamin d doesn't really equate with scandavia having a lower rate than us and Spain a higher rate

That's a fair point as far as Vit D is concerned. Not so sure about obesity - the Scands are generally not as fat as us Scots - not so sure about the Spaniards.

[Skol]

Yes they are present every year - but COVID is not and obesity and Vitamin D deficiency each make an individual far more likely to die from COVID.

And so it was adding Covid that led to an increased in deaths over and above that which we would normally see from other contributors.

[basehibby]

Malone is a complete nut job and a swindler for profit, particularly from ivermectin ...........

Deary Me - where to start - it looks like you just ate a hard drive from factoid-smears-r-us and farted it all out onto the page. I should not waste my time trying to reason with the hysterically deluded but for the sake of fighting disinformation here goes ....

You said: Malone is a complete nut job and a swindler for profit, particularly from ivermectin which clearly doesn't work. He was one of over 200 that worked on the development of mRNA but Katalin Karikó or Derrick Rossi were by far the main players, mrna was being studied in 1978 12 years before he was involved in it.
I will ignore the libelous ad hominem insults against the man and just ask you to explain how anyone - let alone Malone - has been profiteering from an extremely cheap patent free drug like Ivermectin. Goodness knows if there was a fast buck in it your Big Pharma favourites would be pushing it on us for all they were worth - it's the very unprofitability of this particular drug which marks it out - so if you want to avoid looking like a fool - SOURCES PLEASE for these slanderous allegations. Certainly many will have worked on mRNA but it's harder to distort the truth in a Patent database than it is in a "Fact Checking" website - here is a link to Malone's earliest patent on mRNA vax tech - please provide one from Kariko or Rossi that precedes it to prove your point ....
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030032615A1/en?inventor=robert+malone&oq=robert+malone

You Said: On point 1 your arguing with the best Immunologist of his generation. Millions have safely been given to teens now so the argument is falling apart. Unless you can find anyone with half the expertise as Andrew crowxford, who says any side effects would already be evident. I was not arguing with the imunologist - I merely pointed out a couple of things he failed to mention. Millions have been given to teens and the manufacturers have now been forced to add additional life altering side effects to their inserts as a result. The profiles of side effects - including deaths - from these products are actually orders of magnitude greater than those of any of the vaccines currently in mass distribution - but do gibber on - I know you will anyway.

You Said: On point 2 I'm sorry but you've been duped. The Japanese Regulatory authority stuff was faked by antivaxers god knows why. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2NX1J6
That is NOT what the article you linked says - it alleges that the results of the paper - published through a FOI request - have been misinterpreted. Whereas the eminently qualified Malone and other scientists do not agree and have said so - they are urging caution rather than reckless risk taking with people's lives - and for this they continue to be smeared and abused.

You said: There's almost 7 billion vaccines been given the arguments that they are unsafe is getting dafter. I'm sorry about your friend dying but if it was from a vaccine he's one of the very unfortunate 200,000/1. It would be better if no one died from the cure but comparison to the horror of covid it's a small price. c. 65,000/1 risk of death according to the Yellow Card database statistics - and many more serious adverse events. Multiply that by 7 billion and you have a major reason for exercising caution. My friend had a lot to give and died an untimely and unpleasant death and there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind what caused it - but I didn't blame him for taking it as on the evidence presented to him it was a reasonable risk to take. Bear in mind I am not trying to force anyone NOT to have a jab - but protesting against the iniquity of anyone being mandated, bullied or coerced into it, There is a word for people that use tactics like that - FASCIST.

You said: We've done ivermectin in a thread. The main problem is it doesn't work.. The few studies that showed it worked were proven to be fake.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809 Yes - I started the thread to assess the level of brainwashing on Hibs.net - it was depressingly high and you are one of the statistics. There have been at least 60 (SIXTY) studies done on IVM and all but ONE of them has indicated efficacy against COVID-19. ONE other study was demonstrated to have been either faked or extremely poorly produced and this was jumped upon by a pathetic excuse for a MSM that has become a journalism free joke over the years (but still many seem to swallow whatever they say whole!). The bulk of the evidence which you have chosen to wantonly ignore demonstrates that this safe, cheap, Nobel prize winning drug would be an excellent weapon in the armory of GPs against COVID - if they were allowed to use it.

You said: It's just bizarre. Why would we not want and promote a cheap drug if it worked, we have with molnupiravir, remdesivir and many more. That blows the big pharma thing out the water as the cost pennies. Lots of antivirals get pushed by these groups but they are over 1000 dollars each, hopefully a lot cheaper when in pill form soon. Molnupiravir and Remdesivir are neither cheap, unpatented or nearly as effective as the drug you have been brainwashed into dismissing - the data is out there in overwhelming quantities but you have evidently chosen to ignore it because you want to believe that proven liars and criminals would never lie or cheat about something like that.

You said: Why is there a group heavily linked to trump qanon pushing antivax and ivermectin so heavily, especially to go as far as forging multiple scientific documents. One could be profit. One of the biggest group promoting ivermectin is American frontline doctors, it was found out the group are getting millions from prescriptions. https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/ The idiot that wrote this is doing a great job of mixing up medicine and politics - WTF I ask you makes a Doctor or a medical treatment "Left" or "Right" wing??? He is as bad as QAnon with some of the wilful misinformation in that article - claiming Ivermectin is used primarily to treat livestock when 4 BILLION doses have been prescribed to humanity over the last 20 years (that's about half the ****** human race!) - and claiming that the WHO and CDC advise against it's use when both of them hold a stance that "more studies are required". The organisations he has gone after are evidently providing a service which many doctors in the US (and most here in the UK) are not permitted to provide by their employers (apart from when they have been forced into it by the US courts system). Hardly the crime of the century - let's face it the hack that wrote this hit piece is just making a sensationalist cheap shot out of some fairly inocuous data. There are many more like him though and - to borrow the phrase you used earlier, if you give any credence to this kind of trash then "sorry but you've been duped".

You said - Your clearly intelligent but I'd say pick your sources. There is no mainstream media cover up but if you don't trust the media. 99.9% of qualified immunologists and biologists say its safe and have been pleading for people to take it, thankfully its worked with well over 90% rolling up their sleeve Thank you and I would say the same of you - or at very least you have an excellent taste in football teams and 1970s Rock bands :) - the MSM has been a propaganda machine forever and a day but have truly outdone themselves over the last 18 months. Interesting that you reckon 99.9% of qualified immunolgists and biologists say it's safe - when c 70,000 medical staff in New York State are under threat of losing their jobs because they disagree - and you know these protest rallies that the MSM tell you are full of "right wing nutters"? I've been along to a few and guess who's there and guess who's speaking? Doctors and Nurses and medical scientists who DISAGREE!

I've said it before and I'll say it again - have a vaccination if you want to but say NO to the FASCIST Vax Passports!

[LaMotta]

Malone is a complete nut job and a swindler for profit, particularly from ivermectin which clearly doesn't work. He was one of over 200 that worked on the development of mRNA but Katalin Karikó or Derrick Rossi were by far the main players, mrna was being studied in 1978 12 years before he was involved in it.

On point 1 your arguing with the best Immunologist of his generation. Millions have safely been given to teens now so the argument is falling apart. Unless you can find anyone with half the expertise as Andrew crowxford, who says any side effects would already be evident.

On point 2 I'm sorry but you've been duped. The Japanese Regulatory authority stuff was faked by antivaxers god knows why. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2NX1J6

There's almost 7 billion vaccines been given the arguments that they are unsafe is getting dafter. I'm sorry about your friend dying but if it was from a vaccine he's one of the very unfortunate 200,000/1. It would be better if no one died from the cure but comparison to the horror of covid it's a small price.

We've done ivermectin in a thread. The main problem is it doesn't work.. The few studies that showed it worked were proven to be fake.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809

It's just bizarre. Why would we not want and promote a cheap drug if it worked, we have with molnupiravir, remdesivir and many more. That blows the big pharma thing out the water as the cost pennies. Lots of antivirals get pushed by these groups but they are over 1000 dollars each, hopefully a lot cheaper when in pill form soon.

Why is there a group heavily linked to trump qanon pushing antivax and ivermectin so heavily, especially to go as far as forging multiple scientific documents. One could be profit. One of the biggest group promoting ivermectin is American frontline doctors, it was found out the group are getting millions from prescriptions. https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/

Your clearly intelligent but I'd say pick your sources. There is no mainstream media cover up but if you don't trust the media. 99.9% of qualified immunologists and biologists say its safe and have been pleading for people to take it, thankfully its worked with well over 90% rolling up their sleeve

I find myself nodding in agreement with each of your posts on this. The links you are providing are also helpful.

One of my close friends is a vaccine sceptic and remains unvaccinated. He's the only one of my friend group that is like that and we are all a bit miffed his views on the vaccine. He quotes many of the things that other vaccine sceptics have "picked up" from social media - Dr Robert Malone, yellow card adverse reactions, big pharma profiteering and mainstream media being untrustworthy. He usually sends me clips from tik tok videos or screenshots of graphs, or tweets with scary headlines that link to reports which on closer inspection actually contradict the headline. He has sent me stuff on faked moon landings, flat earth theory and has a copy of a David Icke book on his bookshelf.

Everything he's ever sent me, I've found something rationally debunking the claims being made. Apparently I'm not open minded enough, and I shouldn't trust anything I read on MSM or on google etc etc. I really am worried that he has fallen down a big rabbit hole of misinformation and think he is predisposed to conspiracy theories. He does get angry when a claim he has sent on gets debunked easily with logic - I think its the humiliation of being conned generating the anger.:cb

[basehibby]

I find myself nodding in agreement with each of your posts on this. The links you are providing are also helpful.

One of my close friends is a vaccine sceptic and remains unvaccinated. He's the only one of my friend group that is like that and we are all a bit miffed his views on the vaccine. He quotes many of the things that other vaccine sceptics have "picked up" from social media - Dr Robert Malone, yellow card adverse reactions, big pharma profiteering and mainstream media being untrustworthy. He usually sends me clips from tik tok videos or screenshots of graphs, or tweets with scary headlines that link to reports which on closer inspection actually contradict the headline. He has sent me stuff on faked moon landings, flat earth theory and has a copy of a David Icke book on his bookshelf.

Everything he's ever sent me, I've found something rationally debunking the claims being made. Apparently I'm not open minded enough, and I shouldn't trust anything I read on MSM or on google etc etc. I really am worried that he has fallen down a big rabbit hole of misinformation and think he is predisposed to conspiracy theories. He does get angry when a claim he has sent on gets debunked easily with logic - I think its the humiliation of being conned generating the anger.:cb


Flat earth theory and faked moon landings are one thing - but your list of objections to your friend's concerns over COVID-19 are baffling - I will list them back to you - please feel free to explain what is wrong with:

1) Quoting one of the pioneers of mRNA vaccines about a mRNA vaccine roll out
2) Quoting from the UK Government's website - the Yellow Card database - compiled by the MHRA to list adverse reactions to vaccines and other drugs.
3) Criticising big pharma profiteering which has been as widespread as it's been obscene in it's shameless cynicism and dishonesty for decades prior to 2019/20
4) Pointing out that MSM is untrustworthy - never heard of the saying "don't believe everything you read in the papers" then???

Sounds like for once your friend is the one with his feet on the ground. :cb

[Moulin Yarns]

Flat earth theory and faked moon landings are one thing - but your list of objections to your friend's concerns over COVID-19 are baffling - I will list them back to you - please feel free to explain what is wrong with:

1) Quoting one of the pioneers of mRNA vaccines about a mRNA vaccine roll out
2) Quoting from the UK Government's website - the Yellow Card database - compiled by the MHRA to list adverse reactions to vaccines and other drugs.
3) Criticising big pharma profiteering which has been as widespread as it's been obscene in it's shameless cynicism and dishonesty for decades prior to 2019/20
4) Pointing out that MSM is untrustworthy - never heard of the saying "don't believe everything you read in the papers" then???

Sounds like for once your friend is the one with his feet on the ground. :cb

You have just confirmed that you are a friend of LaMotta 😉

[LaMotta]

Flat earth theory and faked moon landings are one thing - but your list of objections to your friend's concerns over COVID-19 are baffling - I will list them back to you - please feel free to explain what is wrong with:

1) Quoting one of the pioneers of mRNA vaccines about a mRNA vaccine roll out
2) Quoting from the UK Government's website - the Yellow Card database - compiled by the MHRA to list adverse reactions to vaccines and other drugs.
3) Criticising big pharma profiteering which has been as widespread as it's been obscene in it's shameless cynicism and dishonesty for decades prior to 2019/20
4) Pointing out that MSM is untrustworthy - never heard of the saying "don't believe everything you read in the papers" then???

Sounds like for once your friend is the one with his feet on the ground. :cb

Well you know what the problem is? Not one of the 4 things you've quoted back provides any proof that the vaccine is unsafe and unwise to take.

1) Quoting one of the pioneers of mRNA vaccines about a mRNA vaccine roll out

There are countless scientists/researchers over long periods of time who are also pioneers of the mRNA vaccines. Robert Malone is a lone voice amongst them. Why believe him over the countless other pioneers of mRNA vaccine technology? Robert Malone is thriving off the attention he has found from anti vaxxers and right win nut jobs. He routinely blurts out misleading speculation or outright falsehoods. Eg his appearance on Steve Bannon's podcast or false tweets about Israel. His linekdin account has been suspended twice for spreading misinformation. But he has been latched on to by Anti Vaxxers as some kind of God authority on vaccines - why? Because it confirms to them their "suspicions".

2) Quoting from the UK Government's website - the Yellow Card database - compiled by the MHRA to list adverse reactions to vaccines and other drugs.

I mean I genuinely can't believe people are still misinterpreting the yellow card scheme and pointing to it being evidence that "vaccine bad". It has been covered so many times following false misleading internet rumours ( eg the out of context facebook graphs my friend sends me). The yellow card scheme reports are not confirmed adverse reactions to the vaccine, they are events that occurred following the vaccine being taken. And these events are in line with the number of events that routinely happen anyway in a normal year. People routinely die or get ill or feel unwell or have medical issues. It is to be expected that these things will continue to happen following a vaccine shot. Also the adverse reactions reported on yellow card scheme include having a sore arm following the vaccine shot....

Its funny how anyone citing the yellow card scheme as a reason not to trust the vaccine never quotes the following line from the yellow card scheme:

Vaccines are the best way to protect people from COVID-19 and have already saved thousands of lives. Everyone should continue to get their vaccination when asked to do so unless specifically advised otherwise.


3) Criticising big pharma profiteering which has been as widespread as it's been obscene in it's shameless cynicism and dishonesty for decades prior to 2019/20

Well yes, I understand the distrust of big pharma - but that is no proof that the vaccine is unsafe. Who else was going to make vaccines if it wasn't big pharma? There was huge financial and reputational risk for pharma companies in developing a Covid vaccine. The world needed a Covid vaccine though - what was the alternative?

4) Pointing out that MSM is untrustworthy - never heard of the saying "don't believe everything you read in the papers" then???

This is the icing on the cake. I mean how does pointing out that MSM is (sometimes) untrustworthy proove that vaccines are unsafe? Its meaningless nonsense. You know, just because something is in MSM doesn't automatically mean its untrue. Check the weekends football results for example. Its such a ludicrous position for anti vaxxers to take that because MSM printed something it must be untrue whilst at the same they are blindly putting their faith in underground websites, wacky tik tok videos, and graphs without context shared by facebook ma's.

Anyone thinking the four reasons cited above are proof that the vaccine is unsafe does definitely not have their feet on the ground in my view.

[Perfect Hatrick]

Well you know what the problem is? Not one of the 4 things you've quoted back provides any proof that the vaccine is unsafe and unwise to take.

1) Quoting one of the pioneers of mRNA vaccines about a mRNA vaccine roll out

There are countless scientists/researchers over long periods of time who are also pioneers of the mRNA vaccines. Robert Malone is a lone voice amongst them. Why believe him over the countless other pioneers of mRNA vaccine technology? Robert Malone is thriving off the attention he has found from anti vaxxers and right win nut jobs. He routinely blurts out misleading speculation or outright falsehoods. Eg his appearance on Steve Bannon's podcast or false tweets about Israel. His linekdin account has been suspended twice for spreading misinformation. But he has been latched on to by Anti Vaxxers as some kind of God authority on vaccines - why? Because it confirms to them their "suspicions".

2) Quoting from the UK Government's website - the Yellow Card database - compiled by the MHRA to list adverse reactions to vaccines and other drugs.

I mean I genuinely can't believe people are still misinterpreting the yellow card scheme and pointing to it being evidence that "vaccine bad". It has been covered so many times following false misleading internet rumours ( eg the out of context facebook graphs my friend sends me). The yellow card scheme reports are not confirmed adverse reactions to the vaccine, they are events that occurred following the vaccine being taken. And these events are in line with the number of events that routinely happen anyway in a normal year. People routinely die or get ill or feel unwell or have medical issues. It is to be expected that these things will continue to happen following a vaccine shot. Also the adverse reactions reported on yellow card scheme include having a sore arm following the vaccine shot....

Its funny how anyone citing the yellow card scheme as a reason not to trust the vaccine never quotes the following line from the yellow card scheme:

Vaccines are the best way to protect people from COVID-19 and have already saved thousands of lives. Everyone should continue to get their vaccination when asked to do so unless specifically advised otherwise.


3) Criticising big pharma profiteering which has been as widespread as it's been obscene in it's shameless cynicism and dishonesty for decades prior to 2019/20

Well yes, I understand the distrust of big pharma - but that is no proof that the vaccine is unsafe. Who else was going to make vaccines if it wasn't big pharma? There was huge financial and reputational risk for pharma companies in developing a Covid vaccine. The world needed a Covid vaccine though - what was the alternative?

4) Pointing out that MSM is untrustworthy - never heard of the saying "don't believe everything you read in the papers" then???

This is the icing on the cake. I mean how does pointing out that MSM is (sometimes) untrustworthy proove that vaccines are unsafe? Its meaningless nonsense. You know, just because something is in MSM doesn't automatically mean its untrue. Check the weekends football results for example. Its such a ludicrous position for anti vaxxers to take that because MSM printed something it must be untrue whilst at the same they are blindly putting their faith in underground websites, wacky tik tok videos, and graphs without context shared by facebook ma's.

Anyone thinking the four reasons cited above are proof that the vaccine is unsafe does definitely not have their feet on the ground in my view.

:applause:

[basehibby]

Well you know what the problem is? Not one of the 4 things you've quoted back provides any proof that the vaccine is unsafe and unwise to take.

1) Quoting one of the pioneers of mRNA vaccines about a mRNA vaccine roll out

There are countless scientists/researchers over long periods of time who are also pioneers of the mRNA vaccines. Robert Malone is a lone voice amongst them. Why believe him over the countless other pioneers of mRNA vaccine technology? Robert Malone is thriving off the attention he has found from anti vaxxers and right win nut jobs. He routinely blurts out misleading speculation or outright falsehoods. Eg his appearance on Steve Bannon's podcast or false tweets about Israel. His linekdin account has been suspended twice for spreading misinformation. But he has been latched on to by Anti Vaxxers as some kind of God authority on vaccines - why? Because it confirms to them their "suspicions".

2) Quoting from the UK Government's website - the Yellow Card database - compiled by the MHRA to list adverse reactions to vaccines and other drugs.

I mean I genuinely can't believe people are still misinterpreting the yellow card scheme and pointing to it being evidence that "vaccine bad". It has been covered so many times following false misleading internet rumours ( eg the out of context facebook graphs my friend sends me). The yellow card scheme reports are not confirmed adverse reactions to the vaccine, they are events that occurred following the vaccine being taken. And these events are in line with the number of events that routinely happen anyway in a normal year. People routinely die or get ill or feel unwell or have medical issues. It is to be expected that these things will continue to happen following a vaccine shot. Also the adverse reactions reported on yellow card scheme include having a sore arm following the vaccine shot....

Its funny how anyone citing the yellow card scheme as a reason not to trust the vaccine never quotes the following line from the yellow card scheme:

Vaccines are the best way to protect people from COVID-19 and have already saved thousands of lives. Everyone should continue to get their vaccination when asked to do so unless specifically advised otherwise.


3) Criticising big pharma profiteering which has been as widespread as it's been obscene in it's shameless cynicism and dishonesty for decades prior to 2019/20

Well yes, I understand the distrust of big pharma - but that is no proof that the vaccine is unsafe. Who else was going to make vaccines if it wasn't big pharma? There was huge financial and reputational risk for pharma companies in developing a Covid vaccine. The world needed a Covid vaccine though - what was the alternative?

4) Pointing out that MSM is untrustworthy - never heard of the saying "don't believe everything you read in the papers" then???

This is the icing on the cake. I mean how does pointing out that MSM is (sometimes) untrustworthy proove that vaccines are unsafe? Its meaningless nonsense. You know, just because something is in MSM doesn't automatically mean its untrue. Check the weekends football results for example. Its such a ludicrous position for anti vaxxers to take that because MSM printed something it must be untrue whilst at the same they are blindly putting their faith in underground websites, wacky tik tok videos, and graphs without context shared by facebook ma's.

Anyone thinking the four reasons cited above are proof that the vaccine is unsafe does definitely not have their feet on the ground in my view.


The question of the safety vs efficacy of the COVID jabs is far more nuanced than you pretend it to be - the established facts re mortality of the disease and efficaciousness and safety of the vaccines show that taking one could be considered a wise move for an 80 year old while there is little to no clinical benefit for a healthy teenager accompanied by both recognised and unknown risks. THAT is, in fact, the position maintained by Robert Malone and if your friend has picked up on that and you are criticising him for it then it actually suggests that his comments re your lack of open-mindedness are valid.

You made a point of disparaging your friend for quoting knowledgeable and/or reputable sources (Malone, the Yellow Card database) and for criticising and mistrusting known liars (big Pharma and the MSM) and your stubborn reluctance to recognise the incongruence of this position with balanced objectivity speaks volumes of the entrenched and blinkered nature of your own position.

[basehibby]

.....
We've done ivermectin in a thread. The main problem is it doesn't work.. The few studies that showed it worked were proven to be fake.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809
.........

You promised in an earlier post to read anything I put up if I read the virologist's tweet - well the following statement from the Office of the Attorney General of the State of Nebraska demonstrates very well how your above statement is incredibly and sadly misinformed - and why the BBC has become a byword for propaganda and misinformation in the modern age - bear in mind this is a statement with legal standing which defines the parameters of malpractice for Doctors caring for c 2 million people - as opposed to an agenda driven smear piece bodged together by a couple of hacks for hire (example - the BBC article you cite states "Health authorities in Peru and India have stopped recommending ivermectin in treatment guidelines" without mentioning that these actions were swiftly followed by a massive uptick in COVID hospitalisations and deaths - leading to the Indian Bar Association serving a legal notice on the Chief Scientist of the WHO for tweeting misinformation that lead to the withdrawals)....

https://ago.nebraska.gov/sites/ago.nebraska.gov/files/docs/opinions/21-017_0.pdf



(https://ago.nebraska.gov/sites/ago.nebraska.gov/files/docs/opinions/21-017_0.pdf)

[Skol]

I struggle to understand why people are against the vaccines while in favour of other treatments like ivermectin.

[JimBHibees]

https://www.nhsinform.scot/nhs-scotland-covid-status

Got my wife and son to download and use the app. Seems to be working much better now and was very easy to use and worked first time. The more the better imo.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/vaccines-90-effective-at-preventing-deaths-from-delta-variant-study

Could the anti-vaxxers come up with alternative evidence? 🤔

[Moulin Yarns]

You promised in an earlier post to read anything I put up if I read the virologist's tweet - well the following statement from the Office of the Attorney General of the State of Nebraska demonstrates very well how your above statement is incredibly and sadly misinformed - and why the BBC has become a byword for propaganda and misinformation in the modern age - bear in mind this is a statement with legal standing which defines the parameters of malpractice for Doctors caring for c 2 million people - as opposed to an agenda driven smear piece bodged together by a couple of hacks for hire (example - the BBC article you cite states "Health authorities in Peru and India have stopped recommending ivermectin in treatment guidelines" without mentioning that these actions were swiftly followed by a massive uptick in COVID hospitalisations and deaths - leading to the Indian Bar Association serving a legal notice on the Chief Scientist of the WHO for tweeting misinformation that lead to the withdrawals)....

https://ago.nebraska.gov/sites/ago.nebraska.gov/files/docs/opinions/21-017_0.pdf



(https://ago.nebraska.gov/sites/ago.nebraska.gov/files/docs/opinions/21-017_0.pdf)

I'm sure you have referred to the various medically approved vaccines as experimental, yet you want to suggest using untested drugs as the panacea for Covid-19.

I wonder who has the highest authority in the USA?


https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19


https://www.drugs.com/ivermectin.html



https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2114907


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-20/ivermectin-poisonings-rise-as-unproven-use-for-covid-soars


https://www-buzzfeednews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/theresatamkins/ivermectin-for-covid-side-effects?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_ct=163480495 9481&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16348047295483&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buzzfeednews.com%2Farti cle%2Ftheresatamkins%2Fivermectin-for-covid-side-effects

[Berwickhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/vaccines-90-effective-at-preventing-deaths-from-delta-variant-study

Could the anti-vaxxers come up with alternative evidence? 🤔

Come on MY ...don't you read Facebook.... Stacey from Muirhouse hears from her hairdressers uncles pal who works at Lidl that the vaccines don't work.... you cannot argue with such a reliable source :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Come on MY ...don't you read Facebook.... Stacey from Muirhouse hears from her hairdressers uncles pal who works at Lidl that the vaccines don't work.... you cannot argue with such a reliable source :greengrin

Aye, they are only interested in the 10%

[bringbackbenny]

I struggle to understand why people are against the vaccines while in favour of other treatments like ivermectin.

Because they like to be contrary

[Smartie]

I struggle to understand why people are against the vaccines while in favour of other treatments like ivermectin.

To take emotion and judgment out of it for a second - it’s about the sources people trust to get their information from.

To the neutral, some sources are more credible than others, but the believer believes what they believe and it can be tricky to convince them otherwise.

[lord bunberry]

To take emotion and judgment out of it for a second - it’s about the sources people trust to get their information from.

To the neutral, some sources are more credible than others, but the believer believes what they believe and it can be tricky to convince them otherwise.
I’ve been thinking about this a bit lately and I wonder if for some it’s down to fear. Some are just scared to get it and hide behind any evidence they can find even if it’s not particularly credible.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’ve been thinking about this a bit lately and I wonder if for some it’s down to fear. Some are just scared to get it and hide behind any evidence they can find even if it’s not particularly credible.

Absolutely it is.

"What if I'm that person that has a bad reaction?" is something I have heard a few times. That's a difficult one to argue against; emotions drive us much more than facts sometimes.

[lord bunberry]

Absolutely it is.

"What if I'm that person that has a bad reaction?" is something I have heard a few times. That's a difficult one to argue against; emotions drive us much more than facts sometimes.
That what I was thinking, I read something at the weekend that was similar to what you’ve heard, but they didn’t directly say it.

[One Day Soon]

You promised in an earlier post to read anything I put up if I read the virologist's tweet - well the following statement from the Office of the Attorney General of the State of Nebraska demonstrates very well how your above statement is incredibly and sadly misinformed - and why the BBC has become a byword for propaganda and misinformation in the modern age - bear in mind this is a statement with legal standing which defines the parameters of malpractice for Doctors caring for c 2 million people - as opposed to an agenda driven smear piece bodged together by a couple of hacks for hire (example - the BBC article you cite states "Health authorities in Peru and India have stopped recommending ivermectin in treatment guidelines" without mentioning that these actions were swiftly followed by a massive uptick in COVID hospitalisations and deaths - leading to the Indian Bar Association serving a legal notice on the Chief Scientist of the WHO for tweeting misinformation that lead to the withdrawals)....

https://ago.nebraska.gov/sites/ago.nebraska.gov/files/docs/opinions/21-017_0.pdf



(https://ago.nebraska.gov/sites/ago.nebraska.gov/files/docs/opinions/21-017_0.pdf)

On the one hand pretty much every medical and research peer body globally, on the other the Attorney General of Nebraska.

One side conducts medical treatment, medical research and scientific development and is accountable to their funding bodies, their national governments and sponsor institutions and global scrutiny. The other practices law, has inventoried a range of reports they found available online globally, is three people in Nebraska and sits for one of the most consistently Republic states in the Union - in which Attorney General is an elected office.

Up next the WHO decides to enter the specialism of Nebraskan jurisprudence on house conveyancing.

It is truly amazing that my cousin in Lauder knows more about this virus, the con behind it, its treatments, how to protect her geriatric mother's health and what is best for national and global populations than all of the world's most qualified, practiced and experienced medical and scientific experts put together. I marvel at the quality and secrecy of the global conspiracy which is pulling this incredible fraud off despite the internationalisation and democratisation of information exchange that now exists with the advent of the internet and social media.

[lapsedhibee]

On the one hand pretty much every medical and research peer body globally, on the other the Attorney General of Nebraska.

One side conducts medical treatment, medical research and scientific development and is accountable to their funding bodies, their national governments and sponsor institutions and global scrutiny. The other practices law, has inventoried a range of reports they found available online globally, is three people in Nebraska and sits for one of the most consistently Republic states in the Union - in which Attorney General is an elected office.

Up next the WHO decides to enter the specialism of Nebraskan jurisprudence on house conveyancing.

It is truly amazing that my cousin in Lauder knows more about this virus, the con behind it, its treatments, how to protect her geriatric mother's health and what is best for national and global populations than all of the world's most qualified, practiced and experienced medical and scientific experts put together. I marvel at the quality and secrecy of the global conspiracy which is pulling this incredible fraud off despite the internationalisation and democratisation of information exchange that now exists with the advent of the internet and social media.

Your cousin's probably had enough of experts. I doubt if Gove will ever be indicted but I hope the deaths he has helped to cause haunt him till his dying day.

[Berwickhibby]

Your cousin's probably had enough of experts. I doubt if Gove will ever be indicted but I hope the deaths he has helped to cause haunt him till his dying day.

You need to have a conscious to be haunted by your actions... I doubt Gove will lose a wink of sleep

[degenerated]

You need to have a conscious to be haunted by your actions... I doubt Gove will lose a wink of sleepFrankie Boyle reckoned Gove looked haunted, well what he actually said was that he looked like a haunted ventriloquists dummy that had been carved from the yew tree that operation yew tree was named after :greengrin

[LaMotta]

The question of the safety vs efficacy of the COVID jabs is far more nuanced than you pretend it to be - the established facts re mortality of the disease and efficaciousness and safety of the vaccines show that taking one could be considered a wise move for an 80 year old while there is little to no clinical benefit for a healthy teenager accompanied by both recognised and unknown risks. THAT is, in fact, the position maintained by Robert Malone and if your friend has picked up on that and you are criticising him for it then it actually suggests that his comments re your lack of open-mindedness are valid.

You made a point of disparaging your friend for quoting knowledgeable and/or reputable sources (Malone, the Yellow Card database) and for criticising and mistrusting known liars (big Pharma and the MSM) and your stubborn reluctance to recognise the incongruence of this position with balanced objectivity speaks volumes of the entrenched and blinkered nature of your own position.

The problem you are failing to address is the point that many people are unable to interpret information correctly, no matter how knowledgeable or reputable a source might be. This is what has led to a tsunami of misinformation travelling through social media platforms and has been latched on to by conspiracy theorists and those with vaccine hesitancy.

Why would those assertions from Robert Malone be a good reason for a man in his 40's refusing to get vaccinated? I mean Malone has himself been vaccinated. So quite frankly it makes absolutely no sense for my friend (or for most anti vaxxers) to use any of Malone's words as a reason for not getting vaxxed.

The yellow card database actually ENCOURAGES people to get the vaccine. How can you not criticise someone for refusing to take the Vaccine because they have incorrectly interpreted figures from the yellow card report when the same report states people SHOULD get the vaccine. No logic there.

And as I alluded to earlier there is nothing wrong with mistrusting and /or criticising big pharma and the MSM. But using your mistrust of both as reasons to not take a vaccine that over 95% of Doctors have taken and the great majority of medical experts are telling you to take? Madness.

We know the vaccine limits transmission and also limits serious illnesses and deaths. Vaccines work and they work very well. Being open minded about dangerous conspiracy theories isn't the badge of honour you think it is. You should be open minded enough to consider that citing the four points above as reasons for not taking the vaccine is a ludicrous position for a grown man to take.

By the way - using words like efficaciousness and incongruence doesn't make your position any more tenable.

[LaMotta]

To take emotion and judgment out of it for a second - it’s about the sources people trust to get their information from.

To the neutral, some sources are more credible than others, but the believer believes what they believe and it can be tricky to convince them otherwise.

I think this is true. The interesting question is why some people look for alternative theories. I think they feed off the idea that they might know something that others don't.


I’ve been thinking about this a bit lately and I wonder if for some it’s down to fear. Some are just scared to get it and hide behind any evidence they can find even if it’s not particularly credible.

:agree:


Absolutely it is.

"What if I'm that person that has a bad reaction?" is something I have heard a few times. That's a difficult one to argue against; emotions drive us much more than facts sometimes.

I've also heard this. It should be a fairly simple argument back though based on odds, risk and maths. Someone is far more likely to get ill or die or have long term complications from Covid than they are from taking the vaccine. But that logic will still not persuade an anti vaxxer, and facts rarely do.

[greenlex]

Back to the certificate and theres an update on the app. It has an additional clock that renders a screenshot useless if checked properly. Updated no problem.

[JimBHibees]

Back to the certificate and theres an update on the app. It has an additional clock that renders a screenshot useless if checked properly. Updated no problem.

Does it update automatically or do you have to download again?

[CropleyWasGod]

Does it update automatically or do you have to download again?

Sign out of the app, sign in again, and it should have updated.

(disclaimer. Android only. iPhone robots have their own implants to tell them what to do.)

[B.H.F.C]

Sign out of the app, sign in again, and it should have updated.

(disclaimer. Android only. iPhone robots have their own implants to tell them what to do.)

I had to delete and reinstall the app on iPhone. There was no sign of an update although all my data had disappeared prior to doing that.

[overdrive]

The app seems to have updated automatically on my iPhone.

It seems to have split into two sections now, one for Scottish use with hardly any personal information and one QR code, and an international travel section which is basically how it looked before the update with details of the two vaccines and two QR codes.

[Cat Stanton]

Without (NB *without* (!!)) getting into the pros and cons of vaccine passports more generally, did anyone at Hampden get asked to show theirs? I didn't, and didn't see anyone near me get asked either.

Just curious given today's announcements etc.

[Pretty Boy]

Without (NB *without* (!!)) getting into the pros and cons of vaccine passports more generally, did anyone at Hampden get asked to show theirs? I didn't, and didn't see anyone near me get asked either.

Just curious given today's announcements etc.

I was told to have mine ready but no one actually checked it.

[hibee_girl]

Without (NB *without* (!!)) getting into the pros and cons of vaccine passports more generally, did anyone at Hampden get asked to show theirs? I didn't, and didn't see anyone near me get asked either.

Just curious given today's announcements etc.

Some of our group had to show ours but it was just a quick glance at them.

[HH81]

I had to show mine twice so they were definitely checking them.

[greenlex]

Yes I did. Painless enough.

[ronaldo7]

Two of our group showed them.

[Jay]

The guy said to me as long as he could see the app on my phone and he could see
I was opening it with my fingerprint I could go through. He was ticking boxes .

[CropleyWasGod]

Anyone have, or see anyone having, a paper certificate checked?

[The dalmeny]

Without (NB *without* (!!)) getting into the pros and cons of vaccine passports more generally, did anyone at Hampden get asked to show theirs? I didn't, and didn't see anyone near me get asked either.

Just curious given today's announcements etc.

Slightly different, I went to the 4 Autumn games at Murrayfield, not asked and didn't see passports being checked on the first 3, Did see a couple of folk being asked for the 4th game but not us.

[Sir David Gray]

Without (NB *without* (!!)) getting into the pros and cons of vaccine passports more generally, did anyone at Hampden get asked to show theirs? I didn't, and didn't see anyone near me get asked either.

Just curious given today's announcements etc.

My brother was asked to show his as he walked into the car park.

[Zambernardi1875]

What’s the script now after todays announcement? Will non double vaccinated with boosters only need a negative result for the final and games.

[Since90+2]

What’s the script now after todays announcement? Will non double vaccinated with boosters only need a negative result for the final and games.

You don't need to have had any vaccine now. A LFT result alone is sufficient.

[Coco Bryce]

Sturgeon was testing the water by hinting at extending the passports last week and after seeing the backlash that was aimed at her since then by many organisations, opposition MPs and the public, she's clearly backed down.

[Sir David Gray]

You don't need to have had any vaccine now. A LFT result alone is sufficient.

Only from 6th December so you'll still need to be double vaccinated to attend the upcoming home games v Rangers and Motherwell.

[greenlex]

Sturgeon was testing the water by hinting at extending the passports last week and after seeing the backlash that was aimed at her since then by many organisations, opposition MPs and the public, she's clearly backed down.
Nah. She is/was clearly using it as a tool to push folk to get vaccinated. It’ll be gone by spring unless some other super variant rocks up.

[Coco Bryce]

Nah. She is/was clearly using it as a tool to push folk to get vaccinated. It’ll be gone by spring unless some other super variant rocks up.

And it hasn't worked as published in the media today. Hence her pulling back.

[greenlex]

And it hasn't worked as published in the media today. Hence her pulling back.
Yet the Scottish vaccination rates are the best in the UK:confused:

[Just Alf]

Yet the Scottish vaccination rates are the best in the UK:confused:Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't it feels like.

She clearly stated the indicators were positive and there was nothing in that recent vaccine passport report to suggest the scheme should be extended so the Government decided to do exactly that, not extend it.

It was actually funny how the opposition were trying to find negatives in the Government doing what they'd been arguing for it to do!

[Coco Bryce]

Yet the Scottish vaccination rates are the best in the UK:confused:

I was on about the Covid Passports.

[Moulin Yarns]

I was on about the Covid Passports.

Which require you to be double vaccinated. Seems pretty obvious one relies on the other.

Or vaccination rates are the best in the UK, possibly/probably because of the need to be vaccinate to have a covid passport.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

[ABZHFC]

One thing I would say with the argument surrounding correlation between the introduction of vaccine passports and an increase in vaccine uptake is that the Scottish Government's 70-page evidence paper was dishonest in terms of trying to prove a link

They cited the following statistics: 'the proportion of those aged 12+ with a first dose rose from 86.0% to 90.5%. The proportion of those aged 12+ with a second dose rose from 77.6% to 82.2%'

Now obviously, I'm happy more people are vaccinated, it makes them far safer. But these are not fair statistics to try and prove any kind of link between passports and uptake, particularly when the vaccine passports only apply to people who are over the age of 18, yet these figures include those who are 12 and older. As someone else pointed out on Twitter, the vast majority of those who have recently got vaccinated with first and second doses in the timeframe that the Scottish Government have cited are between 12-18, not 18+ (i.e. those who would actually be susceptible to having their vaccine certification checked)

Seeing that kind of dishonesty from a government evidence paper was disheartening, but sadly it's nothing new during this pandemic. The science is bended at will to justify the introduction/expansion of disproportionate, emergency legislation. And that is no particular critique on the Scottish Government itself by the way, virtually all governments across the world have been guilty of the same

[Moulin Yarns]

One thing I would say with the argument surrounding correlation between the introduction of vaccine passports and an increase in vaccine uptake is that the Scottish Government's 70-page evidence paper was dishonest in terms of trying to prove a link

They cited the following statistics: 'the proportion of those aged 12+ with a first dose rose from 86.0% to 90.5%. The proportion of those aged 12+ with a second dose rose from 77.6% to 82.2%'

Now obviously, I'm happy more people are vaccinated, it makes them far safer. But these are not fair statistics to try and prove any kind of link between passports and uptake, particularly when the vaccine passports only apply to people who are over the age of 18, yet these figures include those who are 12 and older. As someone else pointed out on Twitter, the vast majority of those who have recently got vaccinated with first and second doses in the timeframe that the Scottish Government have cited are between 12-18, not 18+ (i.e. those who would actually be susceptible to having their vaccine certification checked)

Seeing that kind of dishonesty from a government evidence paper was disheartening, but sadly it's nothing new during this pandemic. The science is bended at will to justify the introduction/expansion of disproportionate, emergency legislation. And that is no particular critique on the Scottish Government itself by the way, virtually all governments across the world have been guilty of the same

Just to clarify for you, this straight from the NHS Inform website


If you're 12 or over, you can show your COVID Status when travelling abroad.

https://www.nhsinform.scot/nhs-scotland-covid-status

Seems pretty clear that using the over 12 age group is exactly the right thing to quote!

[Stairway 2 7]

Just to clarify for you, this straight from the NHS Inform website



https://www.nhsinform.scot/nhs-scotland-covid-status

Seems pretty clear that using the over 12 age group is exactly the right thing to quote!

That doesn't make sense as our domestic one was for under 18s.

When the vaccine passports were talked about first at the beginning of September, the gap between England and Scotland in first doses was roughly 4.3% in the population. Its now 4% so if anything if using the figures it has had the opposite effect 😆

I think it was brought in too late and didn't cover enough places for it to cause the increase France did. Our vaccine figures are great anyway so it doesn't really matter too much

[JeMeSouviens]

That doesn't make sense as our domestic one was for under 18s.

When the vaccine passports were talked about first at the beginning of September, the gap between England and Scotland in first doses was roughly 4.3% in the population. Its now 4% so if anything if using the figures it has had the opposite effect 😆

I think it was brought in too late and didn't cover enough places for it to cause the increase France did. Our vaccine figures are great anyway so it doesn't really matter too much

:agree:

I was mostly in favour of it as a way to drive vaccine uptake, but I think that was poorly handled for the reasons you give.

[Moulin Yarns]

That doesn't make sense as our domestic one was for under 18s.

When the vaccine passports were talked about first at the beginning of September, the gap between England and Scotland in first doses was roughly 4.3% in the population. Its now 4% so if anything if using the figures it has had the opposite effect 😆

I think it was brought in too late and didn't cover enough places for it to cause the increase France did. Our vaccine figures are great anyway so it doesn't really matter too much

I presume you mean over 18s. :greengrin

Domestically it is mainly for nightclubs that the 12-18 age groups wouldn't get into anyway, the use by over 12s is for international travel and is not just Scotland but everywhere.

[Hibrandenburg]

Here in the German state of Brandenburg, the non vaccinated will have to provide daily negative tests as of tomorrow morning before going to work. The government will pay for one, the employer will pay for another and the rest will have to be financed by the employee.

[Berwickhibby]

Here in the German state of Brandenburg, the non vaccinated will have to provide daily negative tests as of tomorrow morning before going to work. The government will pay for one, the employer will pay for another and the rest will have to be financed by the employee.

I can see Bozo 🤡 and Nippy following suit

[Since90+2]

I can see Bozo 🤡 and Nippy following suit

Very much doubt it.

[Sir David Gray]

I can see Bozo 🤡 and Nippy following suit

Nah no chance.