Sticky Buns Batter Czech Player in Tunnel

[LaMotta]

Slavia Prague's Ondrej Kudela was beaten up at Ibrox after tonight's Europa League game against Rangers, Czech media say.

The Czech club has reported the incident to the police.

https://twitter.com/hosekj/status/1372683573883457536?s=19

[matty_f]

Prick should think twice about being racist in future then.

[LaMotta]

Prick should think twice about being racist in future then.

For the first time ever I'm on the Huns side.

[Sir David Gray]

Prick should think twice about being racist in future then.

Does there not need to be an investigation/disciplinary hearing first before we can label him as such?

Do we know what he is alleged to have said?

Clearly if he's found to have racially abused Kamara the book should be thrown at him and personally I'd ban him for life but I'm not sure that battering him in the tunnel before due process has even taken place is the best way to go about things.

[neil7908]

But when it comes to sectarianism, then suddenly they are silent.

I know it's probably not the time to be making petty digs but everything they do reeks of hypocrisy when they talk about discrimination.

They are far and away the most bigoted club in Scotland.

[matty_f]

Does there not need to be an investigation/disciplinary hearing first before we can label him as such?

Do we know what he is alleged to have said?

Clearly if he's found to have racially abused Kamara the book should be thrown at him and personally I'd ban him for life but I'm not sure that battering him in the tunnel before due process has even taken place is the best way to go about things.

I think the players that allegedly battered him heard first hand what he allegedly said so they probably just decided to punch his allegedly racist face in.

All for due process and hopefully UEFA ban the alleged racist prick if he’s found guilty.

[Sir David Gray]

I think the players that allegedly battered him heard first hand what he allegedly said so they probably just decided to punch his allegedly racist face in.

All for due process and hopefully UEFA ban the alleged racist prick if he’s found guilty.

Ok - agree with the last part.

[kaimendhibs]

If he did make racist remarks then he is a prick.
Other side of the coin is 50,000 other pricks singing sectarian (racist as anti catholic/Southern Irish) get away with it every week in a normal season.
Why defend the assault.
Vigilantism is a crime

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[neil7908]

If he did make racist remarks then he is a prick.
Other side of the coin is 50,000 other pricks singing sectarian (racist as anti catholic/Southern Irish) get away with it every week in a normal season.
Why defend the assault.
Vigilantism is a crime

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Yup. This is also what Roofe did to their goalkeeper. But I don't think we'll be hearing about that again. He could genuinely have given the guy brain damage.

[kaimendhibs]

Yup. This is also what Roofe did to their goalkeeper. But I don't think we'll be hearing about that again. He could genuinely have given the guy brain damage.Indefensible

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[CMurdoch]

I think the players that allegedly battered him heard first hand what he allegedly said so they probably just decided to punch his allegedly racist face in.

All for due process and hopefully UEFA ban the alleged racist prick if he’s found guilty.

As ever it will be Kamara's word against the guys.
Obviously him covering his mouth is suspicious but not evidence of racist behaviour.
Strange behaviour if true given the number of black players in the Slavia team and that they had the tie won at the time so why would the Slavia player be wound up enough to make such a comment.

[kaimendhibs]

As ever it will be Kamara's word against the guys.
Obviously him covering his mouth is suspicious but not evidence of racist behaviour.
Strange behaviour if true given the number of black players in the Slavia team and that they had the tie won at the time so why would the Slavia player be wound up enough to make such a comment.Deflection again. Cant take losing. Detestible institution

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[Sylar]

Kamara is one of the most placid guys in the Scottish game. To see him, Zungu, Goldson and Aribo react the way they did, combined with the covering of his mouth, certainly looks suspicious.

However, someone other than Kamara will need to have heard what he said for anything to be done.

Despicable if that is the case though.

[Paul1642]

No place for racism in the game.

Equally no place or justification for assault!

[Steve20]

Any team gets a player racially abused and everyone is rightfully appalled.

Huns get a player racially abused and it’s ‘but their player kicked the keeper,’ and ‘their fans sing sectarian songs’

Look past the club and realise it doesn’t matter what club he plays for, being racially abused is disgusting.

Anyone that says racist stuff deserves to be battered.

[Antifa Hibs]

It's a tough one. Slavia Prague denying any racism and have released this statement - https://en.slavia.cz/clanek.asp?id=Club-statement-Slavia-denies-allegations-of-racism-807

But Rangers in the passed have never released any statement containing lies before after being battered in a game of football so don't know who to believe?


Rangers finds it incomprehensible that no one, either from within the Scottish FA or Hibernian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/hibernian) Football Club, has condemned Hibernian’s supporters following the violent scenes at the end of [the] Scottish Cup final when Rangers players and members of our backroom staff were physically and verbally assaulted. We have not even had the courtesy of any contact whatsoever from Hibernian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/hibernian) to ask after the wellbeing of those who were attacked by their club’s supporters.

Also not like the huns have lied about racism before so this is a tough one https://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/sfa-drops-charge-against-ross-countys-michael-gardyne-over-rangers-incident-1611598739000

[Heisenberg]

It might just be the translation in the article but what the player claims he said to Kamara makes little sense

After one of the brutal fouls, Ondřej Kúdela spoke to one of the Rangers players. “I told him ‘You ****ing guy’. It was said in emotions, but I absolutely deny there was anything racist in those words,” Kúdela stated.

I also don’t see any reason for him to shield what he was saying from the cameras if that was all it was.

[hibbysam]

Any team gets a player racially abused and everyone is rightfully appalled.

Huns get a player racially abused and it’s ‘but their player kicked the keeper,’ and ‘their fans sing sectarian songs’

Look past the club and realise it doesn’t matter what club he plays for, being racially abused is disgusting.

Anyone that says racist stuff deserves to be battered.

Correct. I’m sorry but if someone racially abuses someone in the street should the receiver wait until the police investigation before lamping them? Kamara certainly doesn’t strike me as the personality to make stuff like that up, seems extremely laid back and placid.

[JimBHibees]

But when it comes to sectarianism, then suddenly they are silent.

I know it's probably not the time to be making petty digs but everything they do reeks of hypocrisy when they talk about discrimination.

They are far and away the most bigoted club in Scotland.

Can't really get away from this. Gerrard is an erse should have made sure that nothing else happened after the game. Smacks of sour grapes to an extent. You lost, you lost your discipline, get over it.

[Chorley Hibee]

Racism is disgusting and abhorrent.

Rangers and their support acting as a standard bearer in the fight against such behaviour is off the scale hypocrisy.

[rossevenil]

For those saying it was suspicious because he shielded his mouth etc then why almost every weekend are we seeing players such as Harry Kane doing exactly the same thing to speak to a team mate in the English Premiership....is he calling Son a "Slanty Eye" or Bale a "welsh prick" or saying "Jose hasn`t got a clue man"

For what its worth clearly there was something undesireable,hopefully action is severe if found guilty but at the moment its his word to theirs and haven`t rankers made allegations like this in the not so distant past that weren`t acted upon in the end?

It is ironic from a team whose fans do nothing but sing about religious bigotry and hatred of all sorts.

[Onion]

No place for racism anywhere but what a surprise... The Rangers get beat and all Hell breaks out. As predictable as Sevco Statement, a Gerrard tantrum and a Hun gathering. The Rangers have zero credibility and are invariably at centre of every negative thing that happens in Scottish football.

[neil7908]

Correct. I’m sorry but if someone racially abuses someone in the street should the receiver wait until the police investigation before lamping them? Kamara certainly doesn’t strike me as the personality to make stuff like that up, seems extremely laid back and placid.


Do you think we should just batter anyone that commits a crime? As much as I understand the action, of course you can't just go around smashing folk if they've done you wrong.

I hope don't have to say this but to be clear, racist abuse is disgraceful and the guy should have the book thrown at him.

Kamara has all my sympathy. But I can't stand Sevco and their fans acting piously on this topic when they are up to their knees in sectarianism (to quote one of their favourites). Gerrard also has some cheek on this given his support for Luis Suarez.

[Hiber-nation]

The Slavia press release looks as if it's been written by Jim Traynor.

[Brightside]

Does there not need to be an investigation/disciplinary hearing first before we can label him as such?

Do we know what he is alleged to have said?

Clearly if he's found to have racially abused Kamara the book should be thrown at him and personally I'd ban him for life but I'm not sure that battering him in the tunnel before due process has even taken place is the best way to go about things.

No I’m all for the battering. He will end up getting off with the enquiry. He said / she said. Etc.

[hibsbollah]

For those saying it was suspicious because he shielded his mouth etc then why almost every weekend are we seeing players such as Harry Kane doing exactly the same thing to speak to a team mate in the English Premiership....is he calling Son a "Slanty Eye" or Bale a "welsh prick" or saying "Jose hasn`t got a clue man"

For what its worth clearly there was something undesireable,hopefully action is severe if found guilty but at the moment its his word to theirs and haven`t rankers made allegations like this in the not so distant past that weren`t acted upon in the end?

It is ironic from a team whose fans do nothing but sing about religious bigotry and hatred of all sorts.

The example you’ve given of shielding your mouth for hiding tactical discussions is a bit different. This was clearly something else, he’s leaning into Kamara so Kamara can hear it. The reaction of Kamara and the other rangers player shows that they both heard something simultaneously. It’s fairly obvious what’s happened. (The only logical defence is both rangers players prearranged a simultaneous fake outrage at the same time pretending something racist had been said, which if you look at the footage is a ridiculous defence).

The problem is you’ll never prove it without on pitch mics, even lip reading experts differ a lot of the time. Neymar and Alvaro Gonzalez last season spring to mind.

I only watched the highlights, but that assault by Roofe on the keeper was a ****ing disgrace. I read some comments about his ‘eyes being on the ball’ as if that’s a defence :faf: and the second boy that got sent off has no complaints either. Also this is all a good distraction from McGregor having weak wrists on the first goal and getting his wall position wrong on the second.

[scoopyboy]

Does there not need to be an investigation/disciplinary hearing first before we can label him as such?

Do we know what he is alleged to have said?

Clearly if he's found to have racially abused Kamara the book should be thrown at him and personally I'd ban him for life but I'm not sure that battering him in the tunnel before due process has even taken place is the best way to go about things.

Yes, The Rangers players should have waited until it was properly investigated.

Then if proven to be correct the player should be invited back to the Ibrox tunnel so the Rangers players could batter him without any second thoughts.

I'm sure the player would fly over specially.:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

No I’m all for the battering. He will end up getting off with the enquiry. He said / she said. Etc.

Surely not if there's corroboration from other players that they heard him say such and such, which appears to be the case.

[Hibernian Verse]

For those saying it was suspicious because he shielded his mouth etc then why almost every weekend are we seeing players such as Harry Kane doing exactly the same thing to speak to a team mate in the English Premiership....is he calling Son a "Slanty Eye" or Bale a "welsh prick" or saying "Jose hasn`t got a clue man"

For what its worth clearly there was something undesireable,hopefully action is severe if found guilty but at the moment its his word to theirs and haven`t rankers made allegations like this in the not so distant past that weren`t acted upon in the end?

It is ironic from a team whose fans do nothing but sing about religious bigotry and hatred of all sorts.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as it says you're 50 so grew up in a different era to me but IMO you are part of the problem with comments like this.

1. Not sure what you're getting at with your random Spurs comments. I've never seen Son react and complain to the ref about Kane because it simply doesn't happen but you know this already. Incredibly stupid comment.

2. Rangers have made comments like this up at Ross County, yes. But that doesn't make this ok.

3. It is slightly ironic that the fans are complaining, but as far as I know Kamara, Gerrard & teammates don't sing the songs and if one of the players is racially abused it has no correlation to their fans.

4. Lastly, racist comments aren't just "undesirable" in 2021.

If a racist comment was made, we should all back the player who feels attacked, smother the racism and continue to do so until people stop making excuses.

[The Spaceman]

Anyone who isn’t in full support of Kamara and Sevco for this specific event is simply a big part of the racism problem/ultimately supports racism.

[Velma Dinkley]

Anyone who isn’t in full support of Kamara and Sevco for this specific event is simply a big part of the racism problem/ultimately supports racism.

Even if nothing racist was said?

[hibsbollah]

Surely not if there's corroboration from other players that they heard him say such and such, which appears to be the case.

I’m not sure how the process works in practice, but Neymar had other PSG players supporting his claims as well, nothing happened.

[Chorley Hibee]

Anyone who isn’t in full support of Kamara and Sevco for this specific event is simply a big part of the racism problem/ultimately supports racism.

Is there any conclusive proof that Kamara was racially abused by the Slavia player?

I abhor racism, but forgive me if I have my doubts about anything involving the poisonous institution that is Rangers FC.

I'm not a fan of people being branded racists without evidence either.

[Bostonhibby]

I think the players that allegedly battered him heard first hand what he allegedly said so they probably just decided to punch his allegedly racist face in.

All for due process and hopefully UEFA ban the alleged racist prick if he’s found guilty.If that's the case then it's probably a form of justice meted out in response to a bigoted racist remark.

We just need them to leap onto the terraces or wade into the mutants outside ibrox the next time they hear anything similar if they really are serious about it.

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[hibsbollah]

Is there any conclusive proof that Kamara was racially abused by the Slavia player?

I abhor racism, but forgive me if I have my doubts about anything involving the poisonous institution that is Rangers FC.

I'm not a fan of people being branded racists without evidence either.

Why do both hun players react in the same way at the same time? Have they just waited until the right moment to simultaneously fake outrage? Just as the slavia player covers his mouth for the first time and as two players are angrily arguing?

I despise that particular club but it’s so obvious what happened.

[lucky]

Yup. This is also what Roofe did to their goalkeeper. But I don't think we'll be hearing about that again. He could genuinely have given the guy brain damage.

The two incidents are not connected and trying to link them diminishes the allegations of racism. Roofe’s attempt at playing the ball was poor but he was attempting to play the ball. Racially abusing an opponent is not acceptable in any circumstances. So unless your trying to defend racism why link the two incidents?

[Sir David Gray]

Anyone who isn’t in full support of Kamara and Sevco for this specific event is simply a big part of the racism problem/ultimately supports racism.

When you say "anyone who isn't in full support...ultimately supports racism." do you include not supporting battering someone before any disciplinary process has even started?

I certainly hope not.

[Hibernian Verse]

Why do both hun players react in the same way at the same time? Have they just waited until the right moment to simultaneously fake outrage? Just as the slavia player covers his mouth for the first time and as two players are angrily arguing?

I despise that particular club but it’s so obvious what happened.

Says a lot about this country's problems when we need "conclusive proof" before we will believe someone was racially abused rather than take the incident on merit.

[Heisenberg]

Can hear what Zungu thinks he heard at the end of this clip. Makes more sense than what the Slavia player claims was “****ing guy”

https://twitter.com/nycrfc/status/1372747663880417281?s=21

[Danderhall Hibs]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as it says you're 50 so grew up in a different era to me but IMO you are part of the problem with comments like this.

1. Not sure what you're getting at with your random Spurs comments. I've never seen Son react and complain to the ref about Kane because it simply doesn't happen but you know this already. Incredibly stupid comment.

2. Rangers have made comments like this up at Ross County, yes. But that doesn't make this ok.

3. It is slightly ironic that the fans are complaining, but as far as I know Kamara, Gerrard & teammates don't sing the songs and if one of the players is racially abused it has no correlation to their fans.

4. Lastly, racist comments aren't just "undesirable" in 2021.

If a racist comment was made, we should all back the player who feels attacked, smother the racism and continue to do so until people stop making excuses.

:agree: well said

[Danderhall Hibs]

When you say "anyone who isn't in full support...ultimately supports racism." do you include not supporting battering someone before any disciplinary process has even started?

I certainly hope not.

I think you’ve got more faith in the process than most others SDG.

Football/UEFA plays lip service to racism - I thought everyone knew that. It wasn’t so long ago that someone was fined more for having a non offensive slogan on a T-shirt than another was fined for being found guilty of racism.

[hibsbollah]

Can hear what Zungu thinks he heard at the end of this clip. Makes more sense than what the Slavia player claims was “****ing guy”

https://twitter.com/nycrfc/status/1372747663880417281?s=21

I couldn’t make out what Zungu said he heard... ‘monkey?’ was it?

[Chorley Hibee]

Why do both hun players react in the same way at the same time? Have they just waited until the right moment to simultaneously fake outrage? Just as the slavia player covers his mouth for the first time and as two players are angrily arguing?

I despise that particular club but it’s so obvious what happened.

You say it's obvious what happened, I don't see how you can say that without having been there, or actually hearing what was said.

I've seen players react in similar situations on many different occasions, they're not all related to accusations of racism.

I'm not denying a racist gesture took place, but I'm not accusing someone without evidence either. We're on a slippery slope if we are.

[blackpoolhibs]

Is it just me who cant be bothered with this hypocrisy anymore, They play the victim when they want, but have deafness when it's their lot each and every week of the season?

Both scenarios are wrong, but i cant get annoyed about it with them until they stand up and start battering their own fans and club officials (bigot kit man).

[Hibernian Verse]

I couldn’t make out what Zungu said he heard... ‘monkey?’ was it?

"F'ing black guy" I think

[calumhibee1]

I couldn’t make out what Zungu said he heard... ‘monkey?’ was it?

Sounded like “he said ****ing monkey” to me.

[Heisenberg]

I couldn’t make out what Zungu said he heard... ‘monkey?’ was it?

“He said ****ing monkey” was what I’d picked up

[hibsbollah]

You say it's obvious what happened, I don't see how you can say that without having been there, or actually hearing what was said.

I've seen players react in similar situations on many different occasions, they're not all related to accusations of racism.

I'm not denying a racist gesture took place, but I'm not accusing someone without evidence either. We're on a slippery slope if we are.

:dunno: I’m not a court of law so there’s no slippery slope to be worried about. I’ve already explained the sequence of events so when you look at the context it’s obvious to me what went down.

Which is of course irrelevant, because nothing will be done as usual. Even when there’s actual evidence. Just ask John Terry.

[Rumble de Thump]

And that's how easy it is for people to mishear things.

[Chorley Hibee]

Says a lot about this country's problems when we need "conclusive proof" before we will believe someone was racially abused rather than take the incident on merit.

So you believe accusations determine someone's guilt?

The incident should be fully investigated and treated with merit. I also believe the denial from the Slavia player should be treated with equal merit, until there is proof otherwise.

Justice isn't served by branding someone a racist without due process and equal opportunity to clear his/her name.

Hopefully the subsequent investigation will get to the truth.

[flash]

Have to say the response from some on here that it's OK to be racist towards a black Rangers player because some of their fans are bigots too is not an attitude I would wish to be associated with.

[Since90+2]

Have to say the response from some on here that it's OK to be racist towards a black Rangers player because some of their fans are bigots too is not an attitude I would wish to be associated with.

Although nobody has said that.

[Chorley Hibee]

Have to say the response from some on here that it's OK to be racist towards a black Rangers player because some of their fans are bigots too is not an attitude I would wish to be associated with.

Who said that?

[Hibernian Verse]

So you believe accusations determine someone's guilt?

The incident should be fully investigated and treated with merit. I also believe the denial from the Slavia player should be treated with equal merit, until their is proof otherwise. Justice isn't served by branding someone a racist without due process and equal opportunity to clear his/her name.

Hopefully the subsequent investigation will get to the truth.

No, I don't. But you're asking for evidence and my opinion is guilty when reviewing the evidence of last night. I'm not in a court of law, as Hibsbollah says, so I can come to my own conclusions especially after seeing the video of Zungu. Whether you think I'm right or wrong to do so is your choice to make, and whether I think you're right or wrong is my choice to make.

I hope you get the conclusive proof you need.

[blackpoolhibs]

Have to say the response from some on here that it's OK to be racist towards a black Rangers player because some of their fans are bigots too is not an attitude I would wish to be associated with.

Not sure if that was aimed at me, but i'm not saying it is ok, it was wrong, what i've said is i'm fed up with their hypocrisy.

Playing the victim is never a good look, especially for them.

[Since90+2]

Clear as day that the guy has said something racist. Kamara seems a very laid back guy and the chances that him and Zungu reacted like that at the same time to a nothing incident are almost none.

I don't care if it's the Huns or not that behaviour should not be tolerated.

[flash]

Who said that?

It's implied in several posts. The old classic "I hate racism but".

[Keith_M]

The first thought I had when reading about Slavia's claims that Rangers players attacked the guy in the tunnel was that this was some kind of deflection from the (alleged) racism.

[Hibernian Verse]

It's implied in several posts. The old classic "I hate racism but".

They cleverly avoided actually saying it but it is implied as you say. Part of the problem again the "conclusive evidence" brigade.

[flash]

Not sure if that was aimed at me, but i'm not saying it is ok, it was wrong, what i've said is i'm fed up with their hypocrisy.

Playing the victim is never a good look, especially for them.

It wasn't aimed at any one poster in particular. I just think some things are above whataboutery.

[DIXIHIBS]

Firstly rangers are one of the most bigoted institutions around and are hypocrites but having just seen the incident it doesnt look good. The reaction of kamara was to go straight to the ref to complain. Whether it was a racist comment we will probably never know. It reminded me of when Mcoist whispered to lennon. Same sort of reaction.

[Chorley Hibee]

It's implied in several posts. The old classic "I hate racism but".

It is possible to abhor racism whilst also disagreeing with people accusing others of guilt without proof.

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

[lucky]

Some of the comments on here about Rangers and their fans are just as sectarian as the songs they sing. But let’s be very straight here a footballer has been racially abused by an opponent. That is not acceptable. The way Rangers players react and the video and sound on the incident clearly shows what happened. If this was a Hibs player that suffered this everyone would be United in condemning it. There is no place for racism in society that’s why players are taking the knee each week to highlight the issue. Society will only be equal when you look at a black man and only the the man not colour of his skin.

[blackpoolhibs]

It wasn't aimed at any one poster in particular. I just think some things are above whataboutery.

Normally i'd agree with you, but that institution is based on bigoted views, it's as if they view racism as worse than bigotry, who'd have thought eh?

They have a bloody cheek, if they got their own house in order, perhaps i wouldn't find their hypocrisy so sickening.

[Chorley Hibee]

They cleverly avoided actually saying it but it is implied as you say. Part of the problem again the "conclusive evidence" brigade.

So now you're implying I'm a racist?

[Brightside]

Rangers are a disgusting bigoted institution, just like their Celtic pals. Horrible clubs with horrible fans. Racists deserve a kicking as it’s all they would understand. Anyone thinking anything will happen to the Slavia player hasn’t been paying attention to football. European football is racist to its core.

[Hibernian Verse]

So now you're implying I'm a racist?No, and it's very important to make this distinction. I have no doubt you are not a racist, and would never racially abuse someone - 99% of people wouldn't IMO.

The way you are asking for conclusive evidence when the evidence, to me, is quite conclusive is part of the wider issue. A court can determine is someone has been illegally racist but the way people behave shows people are casually racist e.g. the Slavia Prague player and subsequent reactions.

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[bigwheel]

Normally i'd agree with you, but that institution is based on bigoted views, it's as if they view racism as worse than bigotry, who'd have thought eh?

They have a bloody cheek, if they got their own house in order, perhaps i wouldn't find their hypocrisy so sickening.

Just because Kamara plays for Rangers doesn’t mean he should be subject to this type of racism and hate.

You obviously don’t care too much, due to it being Rangers...I do. It’s abhorrent..in the same was as bigotry is....anyone caught acting in that way should be identified, punished and shamed...


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[Paul1642]

They cleverly avoided actually saying it but it is implied as you say. Part of the problem again the "conclusive evidence" brigade.

So we should tar people with being racist without any conclusive evidence then? I hope you never get accused of any crimes you didn’t commit!

Emotions run high in a game of football and if we remove the need for evidence then any old false accusation or complete misunderstanding could really ruin someone’s career.

Also assaulting someone in the tunnel is not the solution.

[blackpoolhibs]

Just because Kamara plays for Rangers doesn’t mean he should be subject to this type of racism and hate.

You obviously don’t care too much, due to it being Rangers...I do. It’s abhorrent..in the same was as bigotry is....anyone caught acting in that way should be identified, punished and shamed...


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It is wrong, i've said it a couple of times in this thread.:confused:

Every player and manager who signs for that club will very quickly find out how bigoted it is, why dont they come out and speak about the abhorrent club they work for?

[Chorley Hibee]

No, and it's very important to make this distinction. I have no doubt you are not a racist, and would never racially abuse someone - 99% of people wouldn't IMO.

The way you are asking for conclusive evidence when the evidence, to me, is quite conclusive is part of the wider issue. A court can determine is someone has been illegally racist but the way people behave shows people are casually racist e.g. the Slavia Prague player and subsequent reactions.

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Thank you for the clarification.

I don't disagree with you in regards to the casual racism that is prevalent in society.

However, I don't agree that throwing accusations at people without proof is a solution to the problem.

[Hibernian Verse]

Thank you for the clarification.

I don't disagree with you in regards to the casual racism that is prevalent in society.

However, I don't agree that throwing accusations at people without proof is a solution to the problem.

And what I'm trying to say to you is I believe the evidence is there.

Anyway, I'm sure we'd agree to disagree over a pint so we can leave it there :agree:

[Keith_M]

I wonder how the Slavia player's black colleagues feel about this.

Bit of a weird position to put them in.

[easty]

They cleverly avoided actually saying it but it is implied as you say. Part of the problem again the "conclusive evidence" brigade.

The “conclusive evidence” brigade...get a grip.

You say it as if conclusive evidence isn’t a big deal. It does kind of matter.

You stay in your “evidence doesnae matter, we’ll just batter anyone who quite possibly said something racist” brigade and sit up on your high horse.


It looks likely he’s been racially abused, it does. You can’t just attack the guy after the game for it though. This isn’t a Sunday morning down at the Jack Kane.

[hibbysam]

Do you think we should just batter anyone that commits a crime? As much as I understand the action, of course you can't just go around smashing folk if they've done you wrong.

I hope don't have to say this but to be clear, racist abuse is disgraceful and the guy should have the book thrown at him.

Kamara has all my sympathy. But I can't stand Sevco and their fans acting piously on this topic when they are up to their knees in sectarianism (to quote one of their favourites). Gerrard also has some cheek on this given his support for Luis Suarez.

Absolutely when it’s crimes of this nature. It’s disgusting and deserves a doing. Likewise many other crimes.

[Hibernian Verse]

The “conclusive evidence” brigade...get a grip.

You say it as if conclusive evidence isn’t a big deal. It does kind of matter.

You stay in your “evidence doesnae matter, we’ll just batter anyone who quite possibly said something racist” brigade and sit up on your high horse.


It looks likely he’s been racially abused, it does. You can’t just attack the guy after the game for it though.Ok buddy. I never once stuck up for them attacking him.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[The Spaceman]

This should be a thread solely condemning the Slavia player and nothing else. Red Card to Racism. How there even seems to be a debate on here is astonishing. Support Kamara or you are part of the problem.

[hibsbollah]

Thank you for the clarification.

I don't disagree with you in regards to the casual racism that is prevalent in society.

However, I don't agree that throwing accusations at people without proof is a solution to the problem.

It’s nothing to do with ‘throwing accusations about’, accusations HAVE been made.

Looking that the video evidence, how do you personally think it looks? And can you describe a chain of events that satisfactorily explains it?

[blackpoolhibs]

This should be a thread solely condemning the Slavia player and nothing else. Red Card to Racism. How there even seems to be a debate on here is astonishing. Support Kamara or you are part of the problem.

It is possible to support Kamara, which i suppose all of us posting here do, and also point out the hypocrisy of the football club he plays for.

Also, every player who plays for that club knows what their bigoted club stands for, why dont they speak out about it, or is racism just worse than sectarianism?

[matty_f]

It is possible to support Kamara, which i suppose all of us posting here do, and also point out the hypocrisy of the football club he plays for.

Also, every player who plays for that club knows what their bigoted club stands for, why dont they speak out about it, or is racism just worse than sectarianism?

They do. Rangers have a big “Anyone, Everyone” campaign that they run as well as backing Show Racism the Red Card.

[Chorley Hibee]

I've no doubt that every person who has contributed to this thread thus far abhors racism.

Vigilante 'justice' does nobody any good, and for any form of real justice to be served, some sort of conclusive evidence will have to be forthcoming - otherwise we'll be heading into dangerous territory, one where accusations can be thrown around like confetti without scrutiny.

Of course that will lead to some undesirables avoiding justice, and that is most unfortunate. It will help shine a light on the wider issue of racism though, one that needs tackled via education in schools and households across society.

[jacomo]

This should be a thread solely condemning the Slavia player and nothing else. Red Card to Racism. How there even seems to be a debate on here is astonishing. Support Kamara or you are part of the problem.


I’ve not read a single post that isn’t supportive of Kamara.

[mal]

Racist abuse = bad.

Physically assaulting someone, even if they have just called you names = worse.

[Chorley Hibee]

It’s nothing to do with ‘throwing accusations about’, accusations HAVE been made.

Looking that the video evidence, how do you personally think it looks? And can you describe a chain of events that satisfactorily explains it?

Truthfully, I wouldn't want to judge until I'd heard from both players involved and from others in the vicinity.

Anything from me on the matter is pure speculation.

[Andy74]

This should be a thread solely condemning the Slavia player and nothing else. Red Card to Racism. How there even seems to be a debate on here is astonishing. Support Kamara or you are part of the problem.

More and more of this type of response on here.

No one is even getting close to saying racism is okay. There are other parts of the incidents that can be discussed around that such as is it clear that racist comments were made and is it okay to then have a physical response.

Your ‘part of the problem’ type posts I’m sure are well meaning but it is you that is really failing to understand what some people are saying, and it isn’t that racism is okay.

[WhileTheChief..]

Anyone who isn’t in full support of Kamara and Sevco for this specific event is simply a big part of the racism problem/ultimately supports racism.

Total nonsense.

[danhibees1875]

This should be a thread solely condemning the Slavia player and nothing else. Red Card to Racism. How there even seems to be a debate on here is astonishing. Support Kamara or you are part of the problem.

:agree:

There's only one thing worth discussing here IMO.

[WhileTheChief..]

This should be a thread solely condemning the Slavia player and nothing else. Red Card to Racism. How there even seems to be a debate on here is astonishing. Support Kamara or you are part of the problem.

You're a bigger part of the problem with crap like this.

[matty_f]

It’s nothing to do with ‘throwing accusations about’, accusations HAVE been made.

Looking that the video evidence, how do you personally think it looks? And can you describe a chain of events that satisfactorily explains it?

You’re never going to get conclusive evidence of an incident like this, it’s absurd to refuse to condemn the player for racism until he’s proven guilty - in doing so people are effectively saying folk aren’t racist until it’s proven in a court of law (or similar).

If I’m in conversation with a stranger in a bar and they say something racist, i don’t have to wait for a trial to know that the person is racist.

The players involved know what was said, you can (as you’ve pointed out) see the reaction - the evidence is there.

What people are doing, whether subconsciously or consciously, is suggesting that the abused players have made it up. It’s absurd. Why would they do that?

I don’t condone violence, and my earlier post probably suggested that I do. I don’t think that is the right way to address the issue, though in saying that, I’m not in the least saddened to hear that some measure of justice was delivered on the night and hope that might serve as a lesson to the racist.

[Since452]

Racism is ***** but so is sectarianism. Rangers FC need to get their own house in order before playing the victim card. Anyway what happened to being innocent until proven guilty?

[nonshinyfinish]

You’re never going to get conclusive evidence of an incident like this, it’s absurd to refuse to condemn the player for racism until he’s proven guilty - in doing so people are effectively saying folk aren’t racist until it’s proven in a court of law (or similar).

If I’m in conversation with a stranger in a bar and they say something racist, i don’t have to wait for a trial to know that the person is racist.

The players involved know what was said, you can (as you’ve pointed out) see the reaction - the evidence is there.

What people are doing, whether subconsciously or consciously, is suggesting that the abused players have made it up. It’s absurd. Why would they do that?

I don’t condone violence, and my earlier post probably suggested that I do. I don’t think that is the right way to address the issue, though in saying that, I’m not in the least saddened to hear that some measure of justice was delivered on the night and hope that might serve as a lesson to the racist.

Well said.

[Hibernian Verse]

You’re never going to get conclusive evidence of an incident like this, it’s absurd to refuse to condemn the player for racism until he’s proven guilty - in doing so people are effectively saying folk aren’t racist until it’s proven in a court of law (or similar).

If I’m in conversation with a stranger in a bar and they say something racist, i don’t have to wait for a trial to know that the person is racist.

The players involved know what was said, you can (as you’ve pointed out) see the reaction - the evidence is there.

What people are doing, whether subconsciously or consciously, is suggesting that the abused players have made it up. It’s absurd. Why would they do that?

I don’t condone violence, and my earlier post probably suggested that I do. I don’t think that is the right way to address the issue, though in saying that, I’m not in the least saddened to hear that some measure of justice was delivered on the night and hope that might serve as a lesson to the racist.100%. Excellent contribution.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[neil7908]

The two incidents are not connected and trying to link them diminishes the allegations of racism. Roofe’s attempt at playing the ball was poor but he was attempting to play the ball. Racially abusing an opponent is not acceptable in any circumstances. So unless your trying to defend racism why link the two incidents?

How could mentioning the tackle in any way be defending racism? What a weird conclusion to draw.

I'm just angry that we'll not hear another word about that horror challenge given the absolute grief Martin Boyle has received this week. Whether he was attempting to play the ball is totally irrelevant. His foot was stupidly high and the end results are shocking. The goalkeeper could have suffered severe injury but I've not seen anything on this.

That doesn't in any way lessen the severity of the racism experienced by Kamara, but I just get sick of Sevco and their overall behaviour which is never commented on our criticised. But as soon as something happens to them we're all expected to band with them.

[Chorley Hibee]

You’re never going to get conclusive evidence of an incident like this, it’s absurd to refuse to condemn the player for racism until he’s proven guilty - in doing so people are effectively saying folk aren’t racist until it’s proven in a court of law (or similar).

If I’m in conversation with a stranger in a bar and they say something racist, i don’t have to wait for a trial to know that the person is racist.

The players involved know what was said, you can (as you’ve pointed out) see the reaction - the evidence is there.

What people are doing, whether subconsciously or consciously, is suggesting that the abused players have made it up. It’s absurd. Why would they do that?

I don’t condone violence, and my earlier post probably suggested that I do. I don’t think that is the right way to address the issue, though in saying that, I’m not in the least saddened to hear that some measure of justice was delivered on the night and hope that might serve as a lesson to the racist.

The players may know what happened, but your man in the bar analogy doesn't work if you want UEFA to deal with this.

For UEFA to deal with this they'll need conclusive evidence, not just the word of a player making the accusation.

It's unfortunate that, in certain cases, this will mean players escaping justice, but what is the alternative?

[neil7908]

Absolutely when it’s crimes of this nature. It’s disgusting and deserves a doing. Likewise many other crimes.

And in the cases where you have actually misheard or there has been a mistake?

Sorry but far too many folk desperate to go around smashing people. Stories of folk setting fire to paediatricians office as they confused them with a paedophile springs to mind.

[Keith_M]

FWIW, given the circumstances*, I believe Kamara and the other The Rangers player.

Sadly proving it is quite another thing entirely.



* The guy puts his hand over his mouth, the immediate reaction of those that heard the comment, and why on earth would they make it up. When you add all those things together, it's pretty damning.

[Sioux]

The players may know what happened, but your man in the bar analogy doesn't work if you want UEFA to deal with this.

For UEFA to deal with this they'll need conclusive evidence, not just the word of a player making the accusation.

It's unfortunate that, in certain cases, this will mean players escaping justice, but what is the alternative?

So, in the USA there are very few incidents of racial behaviour, because there are very very few occasions where a court has found anyone guilty of such crimes. Is that your position?

[hibsbollah]

Truthfully, I wouldn't want to judge until I'd heard from both players involved and from others in the vicinity.

Anything from me on the matter is pure speculation.

Really? It’s just a message board FFS, it’s not going to prejudice a future criminal trial :faf:

You are seriously unwilling to say whether, in response to the accusation from Rangers, the video footage looks bad or not? I find that bizarre.

[Andy74]

You’re never going to get conclusive evidence of an incident like this, it’s absurd to refuse to condemn the player for racism until he’s proven guilty - in doing so people are effectively saying folk aren’t racist until it’s proven in a court of law (or similar).

If I’m in conversation with a stranger in a bar and they say something racist, i don’t have to wait for a trial to know that the person is racist.

The players involved know what was said, you can (as you’ve pointed out) see the reaction - the evidence is there.

What people are doing, whether subconsciously or consciously, is suggesting that the abused players have made it up. It’s absurd. Why would they do that?

I don’t condone violence, and my earlier post probably suggested that I do. I don’t think that is the right way to address the issue, though in saying that, I’m not in the least saddened to hear that some measure of justice was delivered on the night and hope that might serve as a lesson to the racist.

So what you are suggesting is that people are either conscious or sub conscious racists because they are choosing to believe that someone accused of racism is making it up.

This is just another of the ‘part of the problem’ type posts.

That is thinking a bit too deeply about what people are saying which is really that given we weren’t there we have no idea what was said. Yes, we can take a guess based on the reactions but then again there’s been reactions to at least a couple of things recently when what was actually said was misheard or misinterpreted. So I think people, rather than being racists are saying that before any retribution can be supported then they’d need to know if it actually took place.

Then of course many of us wouldn’t think ‘battering’ anyone is an appropriate response to anything.

[Chorley Hibee]

And in the cases where you have actually misheard or there has been a mistake?

Sorry but far too many folk desperate to go around smashing people. Stories of folk setting fire to paediatricians office as they confused them with a paedophile springs to mind.

Whilst I can understand the emotion behind it in certain cases, vigilante 'justice' does us all a disservice in the end.

[Rumble de Thump]

You’re never going to get conclusive evidence of an incident like this, it’s absurd to refuse to condemn the player for racism until he’s proven guilty - in doing so people are effectively saying folk aren’t racist until it’s proven in a court of law (or similar).

If I’m in conversation with a stranger in a bar and they say something racist, i don’t have to wait for a trial to know that the person is racist.

The players involved know what was said, you can (as you’ve pointed out) see the reaction - the evidence is there.

What people are doing, whether subconsciously or consciously, is suggesting that the abused players have made it up. It’s absurd. Why would they do that?

I don’t condone violence, and my earlier post probably suggested that I do. I don’t think that is the right way to address the issue, though in saying that, I’m not in the least saddened to hear that some measure of justice was delivered on the night and hope that might serve as a lesson to the racist.

It's possible that there has been miscommunication and something was misheard. People not pretending to know if something racist was said doesn't mean they're suggesting someone has made something up, subconciously or otherwise. Nobody posting on this thread knows what was said or if it was racist.

[Keith_M]

It's possible that there has been miscommunication and something was misheard. People not pretending to know if something racist was said doesn't mean they're suggesting someone has made something up, subconciously or otherwise. Nobody posting on this thread knows what was said or if it was racist.


So why did he put his hand over his mouth?

[CropleyWasGod]

And in the cases where you have actually misheard or there has been a mistake?

Sorry but far too many folk desperate to go around smashing people. Stories of folk setting fire to paediatricians office as they confused them with a paedophile springs to mind.

That didn't happen.

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/a-tale-told-too-much-the-paediatrician-vigilantes/

[Since90+2]

Why would he cover his mouth? It's pretty obvious when you look at the pattern of events what has went on.

[jeffers]

So why did he put his hand over his mouth?

It looks suspicious absolutely, but you alluded to it earlier, what will his black team mates think if he has made a racist comment. Maybe the player isn’t the sharpest tool in the box, but it’s still surprising he’d do so.

[Rumble de Thump]

So why did he put his hand over his mouth?

Like everyone other than the guy himself, I don't know.

[WhileTheChief..]

So what you are suggesting is that people are either conscious or sub conscious racists because they are choosing to believe that someone accused of racism is making it up.

This is just another of the ‘part of the problem’ type posts.

That is thinking a bit too deeply about what people are saying which is really that given we weren’t there we have no idea what was said. Yes, we can take a guess based on the reactions but then again there’s been reactions to at least a couple of things recently when what was actually said was misheard or misinterpreted. So I think people, rather than being racists are saying that before any retribution can be supported then they’d need to know if it actually took place.

Then of course many of us wouldn’t think ‘battering’ anyone is an appropriate response to anything.

:top marks

Good common sense post.

'Sub conscious' racism?? Not heard that one since I worked for a company with an HR dept!! Total BS.

[Chorley Hibee]

Really? It’s just a message board FFS, it’s not going to prejudice a future criminal trial :faf:

You are seriously unwilling to say whether, in response to the accusation from Rangers, the video footage looks bad or not? I find that bizarre.

Why would it be bizarre that I wouldn't wish to speculate upon an incident I didn't hear and had no involvement in?

Personally, I would hope that was a default position for most rational people.

[Chorley Hibee]

That didn't happen.

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/a-tale-told-too-much-the-paediatrician-vigilantes/

You wouldn't disagree though that incidents have occurred where innocent people have been targeted?

That is my concern about the approach being advocated by a few on here.

[CropleyWasGod]

You wouldn't disagree though that incidents have occurred where innocent people have been targeted?

That is my concern about the approach being advocated by a few on here.

Yep, but I wouldn't cite something that didn't happen, as authority for judging whether or not something happened.

Or something....:rolleyes:

[matty_f]

So what you are suggesting is that people are either conscious or sub conscious racists because they are choosing to believe that someone accused of racism is making it up.

This is just another of the ‘part of the problem’ type posts.

That is thinking a bit too deeply about what people are saying which is really that given we weren’t there we have no idea what was said. Yes, we can take a guess based on the reactions but then again there’s been reactions to at least a couple of things recently when what was actually said was misheard or misinterpreted. So I think people, rather than being racists are saying that before any retribution can be supported then they’d need to know if it actually took place.

Then of course many of us wouldn’t think ‘battering’ anyone is an appropriate response to anything.

No, i said they were consciously or sub-consciously saying that the player accusing him made it up.

They are. The alternative to accepting what the accuser said as correct is accepting that the accuser is incorrect, and given the player knows what was said, if you are saying that the allegation may be false then you’re suggesting he’s made it up (or mis-heard someone saying something directly into his ear).

That doesn’t make you a racist, i which is a bit of a leap from what I said.

I also said that i don’t think violence is the answer to it.

[flash]

Racism is ***** but so is sectarianism. Rangers FC need to get their own house in order before playing the victim card. Anyway what happened to being innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly what I am talking about. Should Kamara have ignored what the boy said because a lot of Rangers supporters are bigots too?

[SlickShoes]

:top marks

Good common sense post.

'Sub conscious' racism?? Not heard that one since I worked for a company with an HR dept!! Total BS.

It's not, and unless you address it you will remain for the rest of your life with the same implicit biases you have always had.

Everyone has these, there is nothing wrong with having them, its just the environment you were raised and lived in but it doesn't mean you can't address them and change them.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/implicit-bias/

It's a real thing and I am sure I trust academic research more than your statement that it is "BS".

[matty_f]

:top marks

Good common sense post.

'Sub conscious' racism?? Not heard that one since I worked for a company with an HR dept!! Total BS.
I didn’t say sub-conscious racism, although there’s tons of evidence to suggest that exists. Unconscious bias, it’s well known.

[easty]

So why did he put his hand over his mouth?

I do believe there was a racist comment, based on the reaction of the players, it looks pretty damning.

I don’t think the hand over the mouth means anything though. They all do it nowadays, they must be encouraged to. I can’t remember the game but I watched it in the last week, two players, one from each team, were walking off the pitch after the game just chatting away with their hands over their mouths. It happens all the time.

[Chorley Hibee]

So, in the USA there are very few incidents of racial behaviour, because there are very very few occasions where a court has found anyone guilty of such crimes. Is that your position?

No, racial abuse will be prevalent with or without convictions.

My argument is about how you obtain justice, and advocating guilt upon hearsay isn't a road I want to see society take.

Your USA example probably requires delving into the systemic racism endemic in certain areas of American society too.

[hibsbollah]

Why would it be bizarre that I wouldn't wish to speculate upon an incident I didn't hear and had no involvement in?

Personally, I would hope that was a default position for most rational people.

You don’t speculate on stuff you see on a screen? You have to be there in person to voice an honest opinion on how it looks?

As I said, the logical gymnastics on here seem very bizarre. Nearly Five pages :rolleyes:

[Chorley Hibee]

Yep, but I wouldn't cite something that didn't happen, as authority for judging whether or not something happened.

Or something....:rolleyes:

Of course not, you're entirely right to bring that false citation to light.

I just wanted to add a counter that false accusations and vigilante justice has often fallen upon innocent individuals.

[Chorley Hibee]

You don’t speculate on stuff you see on a screen? You have to be there in person to voice an honest opinion on how it looks?

As I said, the logical gymnastics on here seem very bizarre. Nearly Five pages :rolleyes:

The accusation is about something that was said, not how it looked.

[bigwheel]

It is wrong, i've said it a couple of times in this thread.:confused:

Every player and manager who signs for that club will very quickly find out how bigoted it is, why dont they come out and speak about the abhorrent club they work for?

I ask this as someone who deplored the sectarian history of Rangers and their following , and the unionist beliefs (not bigoted though in isolation)

What is bigoted about the club today for a player who works there ? Not the fans, but the club ?

[Chorley Hibee]

I ask this as someone who deployed the sectarian history of Rangers and their following , and the unionist beliefs (not bigoted though in isolation)

What is bigoted about the club today for a player who works there ? Not the fans, but the club ?

You don't think they're an integral part of it?

Their recent away kits for example aren't geared towards the **** who espouse this hate?

[Andy74]

No, i said they were consciously or sub-consciously saying that the player accusing him made it up.

They are. The alternative to accepting what the accuser said as correct is accepting that the accuser is incorrect, and given the player knows what was said, if you are saying that the allegation may be false then you’re suggesting he’s made it up (or mis-heard someone saying something directly into his ear).

That doesn’t make you a racist, i which is a bit of a leap from what I said.

I also said that i don’t think violence is the answer to it.

There was little point in saying what you did unless you were trying to say that it was our own biases which were leading us to believe someone was making it up.

There’s another simpler alternative to either accepting it or thinking that it is made up which is that we don’t know and that it could fall under other recent examples of something being mis heard or misinterpreted. It isn’t really that controversial for people not directly involved in an incident to say that they’d need to know a bit more before accepting that retribution is appropriate.

[660]

Some of the comments on here about Rangers and their fans are just as sectarian as the songs they sing.

lol what

[hibsbollah]

The accusation is about something that was said, not how it looked.

I’ve asked you quite a few times now, and to be honest it’s not that I’m all that desperate to hear your opinion, but I find it fascinating that you’re unable to answer me. Even a defence lawyer for the individual involved would be able to give a straight answer to the question I’m asking :greengrin

What does the footage appear to show? What scenarios explain what happens in the footage?

[Hibbyradge]

A lot of The Rangers fans and The Rangers institution is bigoted.

With few exceptions, The Rangers players are not.

More importantly, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

The player who made the remarks did so deliberately and ran away. He's a sneak, a a coward and a racist.

He shouldn't have been assaulted in the tunnel, but I understand why that happened.

The Roofe incident is totally irrelevant.

[Joe6-2]

Deflection again. Cant take losing. Detestible institution

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

My thoughts exactly

[The Spaceman]

My thoughts exactly

If you think this is a staged racism claim to cover up a Last 16 Europa League exit, then I am truly lost for words. What an embarrassment of a thread. No to racism.

[matty_f]

There was little point in saying what you did unless you were trying to say that it was our own biases which were leading us to believe someone was making it up.

There’s another simpler alternative to either accepting it or thinking that it is made up which is that we don’t know and that it could fall under other recent examples of something being mis heard or misinterpreted. It isn’t really that controversial for people not directly involved in an incident to say that they’d need to know a bit more before accepting that retribution is appropriate.

That works if you’re getting a third or fourth hand account of what happened with no sight of it yourself, but the footage is there for all to see, backed up by the players accusation and corroborated by another player who said he heard it.

If you’ve watched that, and heard what has been alleged and are unable to draw conclusions then imho you’re being wilfully ignorant.

[Chorley Hibee]

I’ve asked you quite a few times now, and to be honest it’s not that I’m all that desperate to hear your opinion, but I find it fascinating that you’re unable to answer me. Even a defence lawyer for the individual involved would be able to give a straight answer to the question I’m asking :greengrin

What does the footage appear to show? What scenarios explain what happens in the footage?

If the footage showed racism, I would declare the culprit a racist.

The incident doesn't show that, it shows a player speaking to another, and players reacting to what was said.

I have no idea what was said, and without having heard what was said - I wouldn't be accusing any of the players involved of being a liar or being guilty.

Do you judge everything on what you perceive you've witnessed, or in cases that aren't clear, look for more corroborated evidence before coming to judgement?

[JeMeSouviens]

Racism is disgusting and abhorrent.

Rangers and their support acting as a standard bearer in the fight against such behaviour is off the scale hypocrisy.

Very neatly summed up.

[Kaff]

Looks as though something racist was said, can't be more definitive than that but if I was Kamara I'd take heart that my team mates got involved and, as with young men all over with adrenaline pumping, they sought retribution.
Isn't right and it won't help sort the problem but worse would be players shrugging their shoulders and trooping off at the end showing indifference, I take their reaction as an overall positive.

On the other point, I am hoping the likes of this incident does make Rangers, the institution, more aware of their hypocrisy. Among the fallout possibly more good can come of it?
I won't hold my breath but you never know.

[easty]

Looks as though something racist was said, can't be more definitive than that but if I was Kamara I'd take heart that my team mates got involved and, as with young men all over with adrenaline pumping, they sought retribution.
Isn't right and it won't help sort the problem but worse would be players shrugging their shoulders and trooping off at the end showing indifference, I take their reaction as an overall positive.

On the other point, I am hoping the likes of this incident does make Rangers, the institution, more aware of their hypocrisy. Among the fallout possibly more good can come of it?
I won't hold my breath but you never know.

I don’t know how the reaction in the tunnel after the game can be seen as a positive?

Is it ok to attack folk back at the changing rooms if you’re not happy? Just if it’s a racist incident? What if it’s a horrendous challenge, is that justification for a punch in the face later?

It sets a really bad example.

[overdrive]

The Slavia Prague version of events doesn't seem to add up. They say they called in the police regarding the tunnel incident yet Police Scotland say they received no reports of criminality.

[hibsbollah]

Do you judge everything on what you perceive you've witnessed, or in cases that aren't clear, look for more corroborated evidence before coming to judgement?

I was asking you how the footage LOOKED. That was all. Your inability to answer was strange, and the way you’ve finally answered now is extremely partial and doesn’t address the evidence, and talks on generalities not specifics. Basically, the logical gymnastics continue. I don’t know why.

It isn’t credible to argue that there was a mis comprehension of what was said, because of the simultaneous outraged reaction of two different players. The ‘misheard’ argument is usually the best one to answer this kind of racial abuse claim, and it’s credibility in this case doesn’t stand up. There is no reason for him to cup his mouth if he was just swearing, because swearing is widely tolerated. Cupping the mouth happens when you want to hide tactical things, most often.

The only remaining ‘non racist abuse’ scenario I can imagine is that the players prearranged an event where they staged fake outrage at an imagined racial slur. (Even then, they’d both have to see the very convenient timing of the ‘mouth cupping’ simultaneously, and quickly move into gear, faking their outrage and running about wide eyed to the ref, etc etc) They’d have to do this at an opportune time in the match to not spoil any advantage they might have and to maximize the disruption to the opposition.

So based on the balance of probability, I’m happy to say, yeah, the dude almost definitely called him a monkey.

Ive already said right at the top of this thread, that there will be no sanction or charges because history tells us nothing is ever done.

[TheHibernator]

I couldn’t make out what Zungu said he heard... ‘monkey?’ was it?

I heard "*****ing Monkey"

[Andy74]

That works if you’re getting a third or fourth hand account of what happened with no sight of it yourself, but the footage is there for all to see, backed up by the players accusation and corroborated by another player who said he heard it.

If you’ve watched that, and heard what has been alleged and are unable to draw conclusions then imho you’re being wilfully ignorant.

Yeah you might as well start calling people ignorant now too...

I didn’t directly hear the comment so I can’t draw any conclusion. I can conclude how other people reacted and that is it. There have been other incidents recently that have been mis heard or misinterpreted so unfortunately the reactions of those close by aren’t always an indicator.

You don’t have to go looking for people being racists and sexists or whatever in every discussion you know. It is becoming that way.

[TheHibernator]

My thoughts exactly
They were beaten over 2 legs but that's completely irrelevant atm. We're talking about someone being racially abused.

[matty_f]

I was asking you how the footage LOOKED. That was all. Your inability to answer was strange, and the way you’ve finally answered now is extremely partial and doesn’t address the evidence, and talks on generalities not specifics. Basically, the logical gymnastics continue. I don’t know why.

It isn’t credible to argue that there was a mis comprehension of what was said, because of the simultaneous outraged reaction of two different players. The ‘misheard’ argument is usually the best one to answer this kind of racial abuse claim, and it’s credibility in this case doesn’t stand up. There is no reason for him to cup his mouth if he was just swearing, because swearing is widely tolerated. Cupping the mouth happens when you want to hide tactical things, most often.

The only remaining ‘non racist abuse’ scenario I can imagine is that the players prearranged an event where they staged fake outrage at an imagined racial slur. (Even then, they’d both have to see the very convenient timing of the ‘mouth cupping’ simultaneously, and quickly move into gear, faking their outrage and running about wide eyed to the ref, etc etc) They’d have to do this at an opportune time in the match to not spoil any advantage they might have and to maximize the disruption to the opposition.

So based on the balance of probability, I’m happy to say, yeah, the dude almost definitely called him a monkey.

Ive already said right at the top of this thread, that there will be no sanction or charges because history tells us nothing is ever done.

Would also add to that that if they were doing it to get a sporting advantage (i.e. get the player sent off) rather than because they had taken genuine offence to what was said, they probably wouldn’t have pursued it after the game.

I can’t say that the player was definitely racist but in the basis of the known evidence i can say that it’s significantly more likely that he was than any of the other suggestions put forward.

[Pretty Boy]

It doesn't sit easy with me that Rangers have become the guardians of equality.

However one of their players being racially abused has nothing to do with their fans being bigots so that is all but irrelevant. If the guy did say something racist, and I'm happy to accept Kamara's version of events, then I'm glad he got a smack in the face.

[WhileTheChief..]

I didn’t say sub-conscious racism, although there’s tons of evidence to suggest that exists. Unconscious bias, it’s well known.

It's also widely disputed.

[matty_f]

Yeah you might as well start calling people ignorant now too...

I didn’t directly hear the comment so I can’t draw any conclusion. I can conclude how other people reacted and that is it. There have been other incidents recently that have been mis heard or misinterpreted so unfortunately the reactions of those close by aren’t always an indicator.

You don’t have to go looking for people being racists and sexists or whatever in every discussion you know. It is becoming that way.

It’s not becoming that way.

I stand by my wilfully ignorant comment, as In my opinion if you’ve watched the incident, heard it and seen the follow up it should be fairly easy to draw a conclusion on what happened. Beyond reasonable doubt, imho.

As i said in my post above, could i say the player was definitely racist? No. I would say that all of the available evidence points towards it though and on that basis I’m happy to accept that he was racist.

Being wilfully ignorant is when you look at that incident and ignore what’s staring you in the face, on a very tenuous mandate of “i didn’t directly hear it”.

[Andy74]

I was asking you how the footage LOOKED. That was all. Your inability to answer was strange, and the way you’ve finally answered now is extremely partial and doesn’t address the evidence, and talks on generalities not specifics. Basically, the logical gymnastics continue. I don’t know why.

It isn’t credible to argue that there was a mis comprehension of what was said, because of the simultaneous outraged reaction of two different players. The ‘misheard’ argument is usually the best one to answer this kind of racial abuse claim, and it’s credibility in this case doesn’t stand up. There is no reason for him to cup his mouth if he was just swearing, because swearing is widely tolerated. Cupping the mouth happens when you want to hide tactical things, most often.

The only remaining ‘non racist abuse’ scenario I can imagine is that the players prearranged an event where they staged fake outrage at an imagined racial slur. (Even then, they’d both have to see the very convenient timing of the ‘mouth cupping’ simultaneously, and quickly move into gear, faking their outrage and running about wide eyed to the ref, etc etc) They’d have to do this at an opportune time in the match to not spoil any advantage they might have and to maximize the disruption to the opposition.

So based on the balance of probability, I’m happy to say, yeah, the dude almost definitely called him a monkey.

Ive already said right at the top of this thread, that there will be no sanction or charges because history tells us nothing is ever done.

Can you tell us what Michael Gardyne said in the Ross County v Rangers game? There was a reaction so it should be obvious?

[WhileTheChief..]

It's not, and unless you address it you will remain for the rest of your life with the same implicit biases you have always had.

Everyone has these, there is nothing wrong with having them, its just the environment you were raised and lived in but it doesn't mean you can't address them and change them.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/implicit-bias/

It's a real thing and I am sure I trust academic research more than your statement that it is "BS".

And when i get called racist in this way i just shrug my shoulders and get on with my day.

Your accusation means absolutely nothing to me.

[matty_f]

It's also widely disputed.

Disputed, but with less evidence than that which supports it.

People dispute that the Earth is round.

[Andy74]

It’s not becoming that way.

I stand by my wilfully ignorant comment, as In my opinion if you’ve watched the incident, heard it and seen the follow up it should be fairly easy to draw a conclusion on what happened. Beyond reasonable doubt, imho.

As i said in my post above, could i say the player was definitely racist? No. I would say that all of the available evidence points towards it though and on that basis I’m happy to accept that he was racist.

Being wilfully ignorant is when you look at that incident and ignore what’s staring you in the face, on a very tenuous mandate of “i didn’t directly hear it”.

We are agreed then that you can’t say it was definitely racist.

That’s all that is being said by some because retribution should only follow if it definitely happened.

If it did happen then I hope the guy is punished fully.

[Kaff]

I don’t know how the reaction in the tunnel after the game can be seen as a positive?

Is it ok to attack folk back at the changing rooms if you’re not happy? Just if it’s a racist incident? What if it’s a horrendous challenge, is that justification for a punch in the face later?

It sets a really bad example.

I did say it won't help resolve the situation but that Kamara can at least get the feeling he's supported by his colleagues, far worse would be a show of indifference.
You're a bit naive if you think groups of young men don't get involved in physical retribution like this when they're wound up and adrenaline is flowing.

[matty_f]

Can you tell us what Michael Gardyne said in the Ross County v Rangers game? There was a reaction so it should be obvious?

No, I can’t - what was he alleged to have done/said and I’ll have a look at it.

[Hibbyradge]

I wonder what the black Slavia players are thinking.

I doubt it's "I didn't hear it so I have no opinion".

[WhileTheChief..]

Open minded liberals advocating violence against someone cause they don't like what they said?

Couldn't be further from the meaning of liberal unless you started burning books!

[Dunbar Hibee]

No, I can’t - what was he alleged to have done/said and I’ll have a look at it.

Nobody knows. Just like nobody knows what was said last night.

[hibsbollah]

Can you tell us what Michael Gardyne said in the Ross County v Rangers game? There was a reaction so it should be obvious?

I haven’t seen it, I’m happy to make a call if you have a link. Is it the same chain of events, ie-simultaneous outrage by multiple players, bizarre mouth cupping, etc?

[matty_f]

We are agreed then that you can’t say it was definitely racist.

That’s all that is being said by some because retribution should only follow if it definitely happened.

If it did happen then I hope the guy is punished fully.

But that’s flawed. Being able to prove something happened isn’t the dance as whether or not something actually happened.

In this case the players know what actually happened even if they can’t prove it because of the nature of the incident.

They know what happened and the boy got a sore face for it. I don’t condone the violence but based on the people involved and the actions they took, i trust that they all knew what happened.

You have to be able to draw conclusions from the evidence you have in life, you can’t have cast iron irrefutable proof of everything you’re asked to make a judgement on.

Based on the evidence available, i think it’s significantly more likely that the guy said something racist than the other alternatives put forward and i think that’s a reasonable stance to take.

[basehibby]

It's a tough one. Slavia Prague denying any racism and have released this statement - https://en.slavia.cz/clanek.asp?id=Club-statement-Slavia-denies-allegations-of-racism-807

But Rangers in the passed have never released any statement containing lies before after being battered in a game of football so don't know who to believe?



Also not like the huns have lied about racism before so this is a tough one https://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/sfa-drops-charge-against-ross-countys-michael-gardyne-over-rangers-incident-1611598739000


CORRECT - given their history of spitting the dummy and making up sour grapes stories to deflect from their own ill behaviour after being handed a painful spanking, I would not believe a word Rangers say barring clear evidence to back them up.

If the Slavia player is proven to have uttered racist abuse he will get the book thrown at him and rightly so - he denies it and it's quite possible he may have been misheard or misunderstood in the heat of the moment. It is also a racing certainty that Rangers will make a song and dance about it to deflect from their own players' violent conduct both on and off the pitch - regardless of the truth.

[bigwheel]

You don't think they're an integral part of it?

Their recent away kits for example aren't geared towards the **** who espouse this hate?


I think the use their unionist heritage yes...but that isn't bigoted in isolation.

Honestly, I don't think they do enough to discourage the hate, but I wouldn't imagine a player who works for them sees that, outside of their fans, in their working environment.

[matty_f]

Nobody knows. Just like nobody knows what was said last night.

The boy who got punched and the boy who punched him know. :wink:

Again, for the record, not advocating violence.

[matty_f]

We are agreed then that you can’t say it was definitely racist.

That’s all that is being said by some because retribution should only follow if it definitely happened.

If it did happen then I hope the guy is punished fully.

Can i ask how you (or anyone) could evidence irrefutably that it happened?

[easty]

I did say it won't help resolve the situation but that Kamara can at least get the feeling he's supported by his colleagues, far worse would be a show of indifference.
You're a bit naive if you think groups of young men don't get involved in physical retribution like this when they're wound up and adrenaline is flowing.

Of course they do, and I’ve been the guy who goes after someone after a game after something that’s happened during it, but I’m not a professional footballer. My actions don’t set an example to fans/kids. They've got to know/do better.

[The Harp Awakes]

It doesn't sit easy with me that Rangers have become the guardians of equality.

However one of their players being racially abused has nothing to do with their fans being bigots so that is all but irrelevant. If the guy did say something racist, and I'm happy to accept Kamara's version of events, then I'm glad he got a smack in the face.

Agree with your point, but I don't think the Rangers problem with religious bigotry is restricted to their fans. The club is complicit in sectarianism by their actions/inactions: orange strips, the playing of orange flute ditties before and after the match, doing naff all about 90-100% of their fans singing sectarian songs every week.

Racism must get called out at every opportunity and I hope the Slavia Prague player gets hammered if it's proven he racially abused Kamara and it certainly looks like he did. However, the Rangers have zero credibility on the subject of equality. They have masses to do to put their own house in order.

[matty_f]

Wonder if the Rangers boys shared the view that taking the knee has run its course and it was time for more action. Fair play to them if that’s the case.

[The Modfather]

Open minded liberals advocating violence against someone cause they don't like what they said?

Couldn't be further from the meaning of liberal unless you started burning books!

Looks like we’ve reached the inevitable stage of the thread where it’s not really the specific incident that’s being debated anymore and the Kamara incident is incidental.

[Sir David Gray]

I think you’ve got more faith in the process than most others SDG.

Football/UEFA plays lip service to racism - I thought everyone knew that. It wasn’t so long ago that someone was fined more for having a non offensive slogan on a T-shirt than another was fined for being found guilty of racism.

No I'm not convinced that UEFA will hand out an appropriate punishment but I'm equally not convinced that acts of vigilantism are the way forward either.

All that will be achieved by the attack (apart from the guy getting a sore face for a few days) is that Slavia Prague and their player will now have a way to deflect attention away from the incident which I think is unhelpful.

[WhileTheChief..]

Looks like we’ve reached the inevitable stage of the thread where it’s not really the specific incident that’s being debated anymore and the Kamara incident is incidental.

That happened a good few pages back!

[WhileTheChief..]

Looks like we’ve reached the inevitable stage of the thread where it’s not really the specific incident that’s being debated anymore and the Kamara incident is incidental.


Actually, take a look at post no. 9 on the first page.

The injury that that guy suffered is way worse than any form of verbal abuse, racist or otherwise.

[JeMeSouviens]

I haven’t seen it, I’m happy to make a call if you have a link. Is it the same chain of events, ie-simultaneous outrage by multiple players, bizarre mouth cupping, etc?

The simultaneous outrage is a bit of a red herring though? You either believe Kamara heard what he thinks/says he heard or you don't. Getting it 2nd hand from multiple of his team mates doesn't make any odds.

Ultimately this is a Kamara vs Czech guy, who do you believe, thing. I agree it's most likely Kamara is telling the truth but I doubt anyone can prove it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Wonder if the Rangers boys shared the view that taking the knee has run its course and it was time for more action. Fair play to them if that’s the case.

Fair play to them that they can form a mini-mob on the say so of one of their team mates? Really? :confused:

[Mantis Toboggan]

Actually, take a look at post no. 9 on the first page.

The injury that that guy suffered is way worse than any form of verbal abuse, racist or otherwise.

I don't see what the other incident has to do with whether or not a racist comment was made, or what comparing them achieves.

[Andy74]

Can i ask how you (or anyone) could evidence irrefutably that it happened?

That unfortunately is the application of the largely accepted rule of law. If you are going to have someone punished or take some retribution then go head and prove that it happened.

There will be occasions when that is impossible and that is unfortunate but it does protect us all from having arbitrary action taken against us.

If he did use racist language then I hope they can prove that and that action can be taken.

[Andy74]

I don't see what the other incident has to do with whether or not a racist comment was made, or what comparing them achieves.

The only relevance would be whether it would be right for someone to have smacked Roofe afterwards. Probably not and better that he gets whatever punishment comes his way from the authorities.

[gbhibby]

Bigots calling out Racists how ironic.

[matty_f]

Fair play to them that they can form a mini-mob on the say so of one of their team mates? Really? :confused:

I wasn’t being entirely serious.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don't see what the other incident has to do with whether or not a racist comment was made, or what comparing them achieves.

Read the thread then and you'll see the relevance.

There are posts saying that if the guy used racist language he deserves a slap.

I'm saying I disagree with that.

[neil7908]

That unfortunately is the application of the largely accepted rule of law. If you are going to have someone punished or take some retribution then go head and prove that it happened.

There will be occasions when that is impossible and that is unfortunate but it does protect us all from having arbitrary action taken against us.

If he did use racist language then I hope they can prove that and that action can be taken.

So if UEFA charge him and it sticks based only on the information readily available at this time how would you feel about the verdict? Wound you be comfortable then that he has gone through the correct process and been found culpable?

[EI255]

Hopefully UEFA hammer the sticky Buns

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[Danderhall Hibs]

No I'm not convinced that UEFA will hand out an appropriate punishment but I'm equally not convinced that acts of vigilantism are the way forward either.

All that will be achieved by the attack (apart from the guy getting a sore face for a few days) is that Slavia Prague and their player will now have a way to deflect attention away from the incident which I think is unhelpful.

Maybe we shouldn’t talk about the (alleged) attack - we never saw anything so wouldn’t want to be swayed by the narrative Slavia are creating.

[CentreLine]

It is scandalous that we have racism and sectarianism in society and people in all walks of life have been rightly acting upon it in recent years.

Our problem now may be that a disturbing trend seems to be in motion where the lines are becoming blurred. The modern equivalent of mob rule, that is social media, will pick on a “Cause Celebre” and derail the true message for their own ends.
Conversely we have people suggesting that “alleging” racial abuse has become like some kind of dive in the penalty area to wrong foot an opponent.
In both cases it is an attempt to drive the agenda one way or the other. Spin the call it in politics.

We can’t uninvent the web but I do wish people would allow the responsible authorities to make and act upon sober enquiry before we are bombarded with the polarisation of mob rule.

[matty_f]

Maybe we shouldn’t talk about the (alleged) attack - we never saw anything so wouldn’t want to be swayed by the narrative Slavia are creating.

That’s a good point. We don’t know that anyone was attacked.

[hibsbollah]

The simultaneous outrage is a bit of a red herring though? You either believe Kamara heard what he thinks/says he heard or you don't. Getting it 2nd hand from multiple of his team mates doesn't make any odds.

Ultimately this is a Kamara vs Czech guy, who do you believe, thing. I agree it's most likely Kamara is telling the truth but I doubt anyone can prove it.

The relevance isn’t in that they are teammates, the relevance is that the reaction happened SIMULTANEOUSLY. (Don’t mean to shout but I can’t find the bold icon on this phone :greengrin) It’s highly unlikely two people misheard ‘monkey’. What DID he say? Something that rhymes with ‘monkey’? Does anything else rhyme with ‘monkey’? Turnkey? Hankie? Maybe he had a runny nose.

It’s all getting a bit surreal.

[Since90+2]

The relevance isn’t in that they are teammates, the relevance is that the reaction happened SIMULTANEOUSLY. (Don’t mean to shout but I can’t find the bold icon on this phone :greengrin) It’s highly unlikely two people misheard ‘monkey’. What DID he say? Something that rhymes with ‘monkey’? Does anything else rhyme with ‘monkey’? Turnkey? Hankie? Maybe he had a runny nose.

It’s all getting a bit surreal.

I'm in broad agreement with you but the reactions are not simultaneous, Zungu reacts slightly later than Kamara does.

[overdrive]

That’s a good point. We don’t know that anyone was attacked.

Police Scotland seem to be contradicting part of the Slavia narrative on it.

[Andy74]

The relevance isn’t in that they are teammates, the relevance is that the reaction happened SIMULTANEOUSLY. (Don’t mean to shout but I can’t find the bold icon on this phone :greengrin) It’s highly unlikely two people misheard ‘monkey’. What DID he say? Something that rhymes with ‘monkey’? Does anything else rhyme with ‘monkey’? Turnkey? Hankie? Maybe he had a runny nose.

It’s all getting a bit surreal.

The Gardyne incident can be found fairly easily and yes, several players in the vicinity all reacted to what was said. Gerrard said later he didn’t hear but was going by what his players heard and that it had no place on a football pitch.

I’ve no idea myself obviously but seems to be reasonably accepted now that he did not say what the Rangers players thought he said.

Just an example that it is important that a fair assessment of all the facts is carried out. The initial reaction doesn’t always tell the full story.

[matty_f]

I, for one, will NOT be calling Glen Kamara a liar without evidence that he is one.

[matty_f]

The Gardyne incident can be found fairly easily and yes, several players in the vicinity all reacted to what was said. Gerrard said later he didn’t hear but was going by what his players heard and that it had no place on a football pitch.

I’ve no idea myself obviously but seems to be reasonably accepted now that he did not say what the Rangers players thought he said.

Just an example that it is important that a fair assessment of all the facts is carried out. The initial reaction doesn’t always tell the full story.

I went and looked that up after reading your post and it appeared that everyone was happy enough to take Gardyne’s explanation of events.

Clearly in Gardyne’s case the players didn’t feel convinced enough to follow the matter up themselves.

[JeMeSouviens]

The relevance isn’t in that they are teammates, the relevance is that the reaction happened SIMULTANEOUSLY. (Don’t mean to shout but I can’t find the bold icon on this phone :greengrin) It’s highly unlikely two people misheard ‘monkey’. What DID he say? Something that rhymes with ‘monkey’? Does anything else rhyme with ‘monkey’? Turnkey? Hankie? Maybe he had a runny nose.

It’s all getting a bit surreal.

No need to shout. :greengrin

I thought the teammates reacted to what Kamara told them rather than hearing it directly. Apols if that's wrong.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wasn’t being entirely serious.

Phew!

[matty_f]

Police Scotland seem to be contradicting part of the Slavia narrative on it.

They do, I saw that. Again, making an assumption that Police Scotland aren’t lying about it, there’s further evidence to discredit Slavia’s version of events, which increases the probability that the guy was/is a racist prick.

[blackpoolhibs]

They do. Rangers have a big “Anyone, Everyone” campaign that they run as well as backing Show Racism the Red Card.

:faf: Aye apart from Tarriers and the likes.

[WeeRussell]

Have to say the response from some on here that it's OK to be racist towards a black Rangers player because some of their fans are bigots too is not an attitude I would wish to be associated with.

What a pathetic post. Absolutely nobody has said anything like that.

[EI255]

Remember the Huns accused a Ross County player of similar stuff.... Nothing came of that [emoji848]

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

Again, i wasn’t being entirely serious, just turning the argument around.

Edit : Wee Russell i know you’ve deleted the post but this was the reply. :aok:

[blackpoolhibs]

A lot of The Rangers fans and The Rangers institution is bigoted.

With few exceptions, The Rangers players are not.

More importantly, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

The player who made the remarks did so deliberately and ran away. He's a sneak, a a coward and a racist.

He shouldn't have been assaulted in the tunnel, but I understand why that happened.

The Roofe incident is totally irrelevant.

This is 100% correct Dave, yet IF and it is a big IF they had their own house in order, i for one would have a lot more sympathy with the club in their actions.

Kamara deserves support and hopefully they get to the bottom of this and justice is done. Yet those supporting him at ibrox ignore bigoted words insults and songs each and every week from their own, and they do nothing.

[flash]

What a pathetic post. Absolutely nobody has said anything like that.

It was clearly implied that Rangers had a cheek complaining about one of their players being subjected to racist abuse due to their own dubious history regarding bigotry.

[blackpoolhibs]

It was clearly implied that Rangers had a cheek complaining about one of their players being subjected to racist abuse due to their own dubious history regarding bigotry.

I think they should complain, and have not once thought they had a cheek to do so. Its the hypocrisy that i object to, it knows no bounds with that lot.

[WeeRussell]

Again, i wasn’t being entirely serious, just turning the argument around.

Edit : Wee Russell i know you’ve deleted the post but this was the reply. :aok:

Aye deleted it as I realised I had jumped the gun in only reading the first and last page of a thread yet again.. and basically cottoned-on that it was a "whoosh" (first time I've used that on here) from me. So basically as you have said above :greengrin

I knew it didn't sound like you :wink:

[WeeRussell]

It was clearly implied that Rangers had a cheek complaining about one of their players being subjected to racist abuse due to their own dubious history regarding bigotry.

Hypocritical given the way their club has carried on throughout history, and will continue to do so as long as they exist and are allowed to? Yes.

I think the point people are making is that they are completely right to call out abhorrent behaviour like this alleged incident. Only it would be nice if they did the same thing amongst their own.

That's not the same as saying it is okay for anyone to be racist. I don't know why you wanted to sensationalise in such a way.

[flash]

I think they should complain, and have not once thought they had a cheek to do so. Its the hypocrisy that i object to, it knows no bounds with that lot.

RFC is a despicable institution. We can all agree on that.

[flash]

Hypocritical given the way their club has carried on throughout history, and will continue to do so as long as they exist and are allowed to? Yes.

I think the point people are making is that they are completely right to call out abhorrent behaviour like this alleged incident. Only it would be nice if they did the same thing amongst their own.

That's not the same as saying it is okay for anyone to be racist. I don't know why you wanted to sensationalise in such a way.
It's a matter of opinion if I sensationalised anything. Not a hill worth dying on for me.

[makaveli1875]

hopefully UEFA throw the book at Rangers and ban them from competing in Europe for a couple of years and a massive fine

[660]

pesky foreigners bringing their racism to the uk 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[hibsbollah]

No need to shout. :greengrin

I thought the teammates reacted to what Kamara told them rather than hearing it directly. Apols if that's wrong.

:greengrin I was using capitals for years as narrative emphasis, I only found it was considered shouting and rude quite recently.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

I've only read four pages of this thread and it's an utter cluster ****

[flash]

I've only read four pages of this thread and it's an utter cluster ****

That's how we roll.

[Onion]

I think they should complain, and have not once thought they had a cheek to do so. Its the hypocrisy that i object to, it knows no bounds with that lot.

:agree: Huns are the delinquent family that terrorises the whole neighbourhood, calling in the cops because someone threw a stone through their window. Yes, they should but the irony is not lost on anyone.

[Bostonhibby]

pesky foreigners bringing their racism to the uk [emoji636][emoji636][emoji636]Coming over here and beating our UK establishment teams. We weren't told that would happen when we sailed of into Bozo's promised land[emoji6]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

I've only read four pages of this thread and it's an utter cluster ****

Sort of understandable though.

There’s been an allegation of racism, which is going to be near impossible to prove or disprove. Whilst the vast majority of us abhor racism and would condemn it unequivocally, this act happened somewhere where many of us have witnessed abuse similar to this or been victims of it ourselves, so I reckon a bit of conflict was inevitable.

It’s a crying shame this happened to Kamara in a Rangers jersey. He’s a decent sort who never courts controversy himself and he 100% doesn’t deserve this to happen to him. It’s a sideshow that we have the relationship that we do with the fans of the club who pay his wages.

Maybe it’s a good thing that a very loud conversation on the subject of prejudice and intolerance of one sort is taking place at Ibrox right now?

Maybe some folk will be asking questions about whether it is more or less unacceptable to have a full stadium chanting sectarian abuse than it is to abuse someone racially face to face? The Rangers players were right to react how they did. Maybe the people the fans of Rangers abuse are entitled to respond similarly?

[BlackSheep]

Anyone actually watched the clip from Rangers TV?

It’s fairly obvious the Slavia player said something offensive and Kamara immediately reacts and shouts he is racist, with Zungu going to the ref to say ‘he called him a f***ing monkey’

Absolute disgrace!

I hope the Rangers did batter the boy in the tunnel!!!

[Centre Hawf]

I despise the sectarian singing/bigoted remarks but I don't think its necessarily appropriate to discuss that in the immediate aftermath of a man being racially abused at his work. I don't think many mean it this way but it comes across as a bit uncaring to the victim. Rangers don't matter in this situation, only Glen Kamara and anyone else who was racially abused.

[MWHIBBIES]

Rangers enable sectarian bigotry. In my opinion if you enable one form of bigotry you are enabling them all. Kamara should not have been subjected to racist abuse. Disgusting stuff. Same as Neil lennon should never have been subjected to sectarian abuse. Both equally wrong. Why are Rangers fans only outraged about one of these two incidents?

[speedy_gonzales]

I was watching the game but what was the trigger for the "cupped hand over mouth" incident, was it simply the double kick against the Slavia player when he was on the deck or was there niggling through the game :confused:

[A Hi-Bee]

This was a football game and the hun were well skelped, a lot of agro from both sides, 2 wrongs dont make a right, but cannot bring myself to side with anything this horrible institution stands for.

**** the hun and all who support and play for them.


:greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

Maybe we shouldn’t talk about the (alleged) attack - we never saw anything so wouldn’t want to be swayed by the narrative Slavia are creating.

True although the earlier point I made in a more general sense still stands.

Whilst I get the desire to mete out your own justice in these sorts of circumstances, I personally don't agree with it. I've no doubt it makes you feel better at the time but I'm not sure it really achieves very much.

And by the way I want to be clear that I do believe that something racist has been said for Kamara to react the way that he did. I am in no way attempting to call him a liar and whilst it's tempting to do so, I don't think the reputation of the Rangers fans or Rangers as a club is really relevant and this incident should be discussed and dealt with in its own right.

[jeffers]

This was a football game and the hun were well skelped, a lot of agro from both sides, 2 wrongs dont make a right, but cannot bring myself to side with anything this horrible institution stands for.

**** the hun and all who support and play for them.


:greengrin

I’m with you.

While Kamara was angered by what was said to him and his team mates rallied round him, he’s perfectly happy to play for the club. He knows their history, listens to the bigoted ditties their fans sing every week and yet he or his team mates make not one single comment. I’m not saying it’s acceptable for him to be racially abused but you can’t have it both ways.

[SlickShoes]

And when i get called racist in this way i just shrug my shoulders and get on with my day.

Your accusation means absolutely nothing to me.

It's not an accusation, it's just something that is. But sure you can take it as an attack and get all defensive, instead of just acknowledging its a thing and dealing with it in a rational way.

[gbhibby]

Racism is wrong in any form so is bigotry.
Both Rangers and Celtic have been fined in Europe for fans behaviour and sectarianism. UEFA need to act if there has been Racist offensive comments made.
Scottish football also needs to introduce strict liability to try to eradicate both evils. I still hear racist and bigoted comments at games not only from other clubs but from our own support.

[truehibernian]

Racism is wrong in any form so is bigotry.
Both Rangers and Celtic have been fined in Europe for fans behaviour and sectarianism. UEFA need to act if there has been Racist offensive comments made.
Scottish football also needs to introduce strict liability to try to eradicate both evils. I still hear racist and bigoted comments at games not only from other clubs but from our own support.

GB, please believe me I'm not pushing for an argument, purely keen to know whether you as a supporter who have witnessed unacceptable behaviour have ever reported it at the time (or after) to the police, stewards or club ?

For me this thread has taken two distinct strands - the incident yesterday itself, and then the broader landscape of the entrenched sectarianism we witness and hear week in week out at games, in particular within the Old Firm's support.

Yesterday was abhorrent - no player should be racially abused on a football pitch at any level of football. The evidence thus far would clearly suggest a racist comment was made by the Slavia player. The covered hand, the immediate reaction of Kamara, the corroboration from another Rangers player, and the instant recall of Zungu of what he had heard. In law here, there's sufficient evidence to charge and report and allow the courts to make a decision and prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

The wider picture is why as a society we allow racism, homophobia, and sectarianism to manifest itself in society, in particular using football as a vehicle to peddle the disgusting behaviour, not only for 90 minutes but now in an online world where it's far too easy for people to type disgusting comments from behind a keyboard. I'm a huge critic of both Celtic and Rangers when it comes to not doing enough, turning a deaf ear, and being slow to condemn their own support. As GB says however, we have all seen clubs, including our own, have moronic supporters who continue to behave in such a despicable manner. The clubs and authorities could be doing more, and indeed be more punitive, but I also think we as supporters and human beings could do more to enhance respect by pointing out those who offend in such a way.

Yes, there's an element of hypocrisy from Rangers - but it's refreshing that Gerrard called it out, reported it on the media conference before even discussing the game itself, and Rangers can't be criticised for wanting immediate action taken against the player and Slavia. Of course, I'd love him and others to call out other things we witness at games, but here and now he did exactly what I'd expect my manager to do - can only applaud him and I actually thought he spoke very well, remaining calm despite being rightly furious, and it's people that have a profile like his that can try and influence change in behaviour.

What was it Oscar Wilde wrote........'my dear fellow you forget we live in the native land of the hypocrite'. The 'whataboutery' arguments will never subside, there will always be clubs more vocal when one of their own is a target, yet fall silent when accused themselves.

Just hope Kamara gets supported from all supporters across Scotland. There cannot be any place for racism in football (and society).

[Jim44]

I heard briefly on the news that neither club had made a complaint nor reported last night’s incidents. End of story? It would appear that that two wrongs can make a right.

[rossevenil]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as it says you're 50 so grew up in a different era to me but IMO you are part of the problem with comments like this.

I don`t need anyone to give me benefit of the doubt for not jumping up to condemn someone without any "real" proof....if it comes out there is some I`ll be more than happy to be condemning said individual,and yes I did grow up in an era where
Bananas and monkey chants were around and a damn sight more in your face (inc Hibs fans singing "Day-O" to rangers player Dale Gordon) as opposed to people covering their mouths or online media abuse,it was and is something that disgusts me!

1. Not sure what you're getting at with your random Spurs comments. I've never seen Son react and complain to the ref about Kane because it simply doesn't happen but you know this already. Incredibly stupid comment.
My point was anything could be getting said when a player covers his mouth to speak like that as opposed to people assuming it`s something racist....look at the reaction Materazzi got from Zidane without it apparently being racist and he didn`t cover his mouth.

2. Rangers have made comments like this up at Ross County, yes. But that doesn't make this ok.
Never said it did make it ok

3. It is slightly ironic that the fans are complaining, but as far as I know Kamara, Gerrard & teammates don't sing the songs and if one of the players is racially abused it has no correlation to their fans.
Again i`m as you said from a different era and remember rangers players pretending to play the flute or singing the "sash" on tv highlights in the 90`s......How do we know they weren`t joining in with the party songs at Ibrox or Murray Park last weekend?
2 wrongs don`t make a right you are absolutely correct,but I am against clubs coming out as victims when they help perpetrate their nonsense.

4. Lastly, racist comments aren't just "undesirable" in 2021.
Again unless I know what his comments were i`m not about to brand someone a "Racist" hence the use of undesirable,I`ll happily use stronger language to describe my feelings if/when its proven to be the case

If a racist comment was made, we should all back the player who feels attacked, smother the racism and continue to do so until people stop making excuses.

Totally agree,likewise until we know otherwise nobody should be found guilty on hear say.
The abuse online is disgusting that the players are getting now and seems to be totally out of control.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If the Prague player made a racist slur, he should be given a huge ban.

As understandable as the reaction of the Rangers players was, it isn't the way to deal with it. I have no sympathy for the culprit, if he was given a smack in the mouth, but that doesn't make it right. In the cold light of day, let the authorities deal with him, though I fully understand things happen in the heat of the moment.

The issue of selective outrage is a fair charge. No outrage from Rangers players or club when inveterate prejudice is on display amongst their own fans every week. There has to be zero tolerance of all racism, homophobia, xenophobia, religious hatred, misogyny from players and supporters alike.

[gbhibby]

I sit in the west stand and the comments are made behind where I sit I have as yet not been able to identify the individuals. The stewards are as close to the individuals as I am. I have been following the club since 1965 and the situation amongst our fans has improved. I have not reported it to the police or club or stewards as I am unable to identify the people concerned.
I have heard racist comments and seen racist gestures from opposition fans which happen in front of police and stewards who are powerless to act.
I agree with your post truehibernian.

[Keith_M]

Has it been confirmed anywhere that the Slavia player was assaulted... or is this just a counter claim by his club to detract attention away from what he (allegedly) said?

[hibsbollah]

I heard briefly on the news that neither club had made a complaint nor reported last night’s incidents. End of story? It would appear that that two wrongs can make a right.

The claim is still up on their website now

https://en.slavia.cz/clanek.asp?id=We-denounce-any-form-of-racism-811

...Along with a bizarre comment about 'we respect Rangers glorious history'. Im assuming this is a form of bohemian sarcasm.

[The Modfather]

I’m with you.

While Kamara was angered by what was said to him and his team mates rallied round him, he’s perfectly happy to play for the club. He knows their history, listens to the bigoted ditties their fans sing every week and yet he or his team mates make not one single comment. I’m not saying it’s acceptable for him to be racially abused but you can’t have it both ways.

I’ve deliberately stayed out of this debate but your post does seem to be sailing close to the wind of “victim blaming”. It appears he was subjected to racism at work. No more no “less”. How can you equate that to Kamara “Having it both ways”?

[hibsbollah]

I’ve deliberately stayed out of this debate but your post does seem to be sailing close to the wind of “victim blaming”. It appears he was subjected to racism at work. No more no “less”. How can you equate that to Kamara “Having it both ways”?

:agree: It’s also a bit of a daft argument in the sense that football professionals aren’t going to pick and choose who their employers are because of the perceived political/tribal allegiances of the fans. I bet a large proportion of rangers (or Celtic) players from overseas have no idea about the extent of the sectarian singing. They’ll go where they’re paid best, where the facilities are best and where they can play at the highest standard, whether it’s the Rangers, Zenit St Petersburg or St Pauli.

[FilipinoHibs]

:agree: It’s also a bit of a daft argument in the sense that football professionals aren’t going to pick and choose who their employers are because of the perceived political/tribal allegiances of the fans. I bet a large proportion of rangers (or Celtic) players from overseas have no idea about the extent of the sectarian singing. They’ll go where they’re paid best, where the facilities are best and where they can play at the highest standard, whether it’s the Rangers, Zenit St Petersburg or St Pauli.

In the end most go to a club that pays the most money. Lucky if your a Catalonian; you get well paid and play for a club that supports your independence.

[Rumble de Thump]

:agree: It’s also a bit of a daft argument in the sense that football professionals aren’t going to pick and choose who their employers are because of the perceived political/tribal allegiances of the fans. I bet a large proportion of rangers (or Celtic) players from overseas have no idea about the extent of the sectarian singing. They’ll go where they’re paid best, where the facilities are best and where they can play at the highest standard, whether it’s the Rangers, Zenit St Petersburg or St Pauli.

I'm a journalist and there are certain publications that have offered me jobs, and I have rejected their approaches based on what their publications stand for and how their audiences have been built. I've spoken to people who work at those companies. One of them once said to me "I work for the devil but the money's good". It's not something I would want to be involved in no matter how much money is offered, and the money offered was far better than the norm.

[Gerard]

Does there not need to be an investigation/disciplinary hearing first before we can label him as such?

Do we know what he is alleged to have said?

Clearly if he's found to have racially abused Kamara the book should be thrown at him and personally I'd ban him for life but I'm not sure that battering him in the tunnel before due process has even taken place is the best way to go about things.

There are laws that will punish people who make racist statements. There are also laws that punish people who physically assault people. I am not aware of the defence that states it is legally acceptable to physically assault another person who makes racist remarks.

[Billy Whizz]

Missed last nights game. Just reading the BBC website, did Kamara punch the Czech player in the tunnel after the game, in front of UEFA officials?

Outrageous too if he’s been racially abused

[Since90+2]

Missed last nights game. Just reading the BBC website, did Kamara punch the Czech player in the tunnel after the game, in front of UEFA officials?

Outrageous too if he’s been racially abused

Apparently he did.

Just seen an interview with Goldson where he said the rangers team waited in the tunnel for Slavia for 45 minutes but they never came back out (I'm guessing he means from the changing room). Probably best for all involved that they never.

[Rumble de Thump]

Missed last nights game. Just reading the BBC website, did Kamara punch the Czech player in the tunnel after the game, in front of UEFA officials?

Outrageous too if he’s been racially abused

We don't know if either of these things happened but hopefully it will be investigated.

[JimBHibees]

Apparently he did.

Just seen an interview with Goldson where he said the rangers team waited in the tunnel for Slavia for 45 minutes but they never came back in. Probably best for all involved that they never.

Gerrard and the club needs to have a word with themselves if they allowed that to happen. Pub team mentality

[jeffers]

I’ve deliberately stayed out of this debate but your post does seem to be sailing close to the wind of “victim blaming”. It appears he was subjected to racism at work. No more no “less”. How can you equate that to Kamara “Having it both ways”?

Fair enough if that’s how you choose to interpret my post.

All I’m saying is Kamara, Goldson, Tavernier, Gerrard etc are all perfectly happy to take money from a club who are built on foundations of religious bigotry, even to the extent they bring out an orange away top to pander to those beliefs. If they don’t know what Rangers stand for when they sign they undoubtedly come to realise as time goes on. As I said in my first post I don’t think it’s acceptable to racially abuse Kamara, but I find it hard to have total sympathy for any Rangers player who is happy to turn a blind eye to what they stand for as a club.

[hibsbollah]

I'm a journalist and there are certain publications that have offered me jobs, and I have rejected their approaches based on what their publications stand for and how their audiences have been built. I've spoken to people who work at those companies. One of them once said to me "I work for the devil but the money's good". It's not something I would want to be involved in no matter how much money is offered, and the money offered was far better than the norm.

Fair enough. Ive turned down the opportunity to double my salary because it wasnt right for me and my family. Never for political reasons although maybe thats because ive never been asked by one yet! Im not sure the perceived political affiliations of a team really resonates with any player, because it doesnt affect them on a day to day basis. If youre working as a hack for The Peoples Daily or Liebensraum Weekly youre going to be confronted by your employers politics every day, its not the same for a footballer; Kamara or an other rangers player probably cant see much difference between our fans and their fans or our club and their club, lets be honest.

[jgl07]

The whole thing smells of Sevco trying to divert attention away from a catastrophic result.

Remember what happened when they lost the Scottish Cup Final in 2016? A fairly good natured pitch invasion was elevated to a viscous assault on their players.

[Crunchie]

It is wrong, i've said it a couple of times in this thread.:confused:

Every player and manager who signs for that club will very quickly find out how bigoted it is, why dont they come out and speak about the abhorrent club they work for?
Kevin Thomson seems to think they're a great club.

[Since90+2]

Breaking news on Sky Sports News that Slavia Prague have released a statement saying they have reported an assault to Police Scotland via the Czech embassy.

Claiming it was a pre planned attack and that cameras of where the incident took place were covered up.

[Billy Whizz]

We don't know if either of these things happened but hopefully it will be investigated.

Thanks for the answers all

[hibsbollah]

Breaking news on Sky Sports News that Slavia Prague have released a statement saying they have reported an assault to Police Scotland via the Czech embassy.

Claiming it was a pre planned attack and that cameras of where the incident took place were covered up.

https://en.slavia.cz/clanek.asp?id=Slavia-filed-criminal-complaint-for-physical-assault-812

The covering of cameras is a big deal, if theyve got evidence.

[superfurryhibby]

Fair enough if that’s how you choose to interpret my post.

All I’m saying is Kamara, Goldson, Tavernier, Gerrard etc are all perfectly happy to take money from a club who are built on foundations of religious bigotry, even to the extent they bring out an orange away top to pander to those beliefs. If they don’t know what Rangers stand for when they sign they undoubtedly come to realise as time goes on. As I said I’m my first post I don’t think it’s acceptable to racially abuse Kamara, but I find it hard to have total sympathy for any Rangers player who is happy to turn a blind eye to what they stand for as a club.

This echoes my own feelings.

Is it not possible to condemn the racist comment aimed at Kamara and still see the irony of him playing for a club who supporters are still largely unreconstructed bigots?

[Since90+2]

If Rangers have covered up cameras to facilitate an attack they need to be absolutely hammered.

This is professional elite level football we are talking about. You can't be pre planning attacks and covering up cameras to give someone a battering.

[Rumble de Thump]

Fair enough. Ive turned down the opportunity to double my salary because it wasnt right for me and my family. Never for political reasons although maybe thats because ive never been asked by one yet! Im not sure the perceived political affiliations of a team really resonates with any player, because it doesnt affect them on a day to day basis. If youre working as a hack for The Peoples Daily or Liebensraum Weekly youre going to be confronted by your employers politics every day, its not the same for a footballer; Kamara or an other rangers player probably cant see much difference between our fans and their fans or our club and their club, lets be honest.

This is true. Sevco has been built on bigotry. It's how they've made their money and become what they are. But every player will have their own reasons for joining certain clubs. For example, I know a player who joined Sevco because it aligned with his world view and he was very happy with the money, and I know someone who joined Kilmarnock for family reasons. Anyway, not wanting to take the chat off on a tangent. Racism is bad.

[easty]

Apparently he did.

Just seen an interview with Goldson where he said the rangers team waited in the tunnel for Slavia for 45 minutes but they never came back out (I'm guessing he means from the changing room). Probably best for all involved that they never.

Imagine being a 28 year old pro footballer, in the last 16 of the UEFA, and talking about waiting for another team to come out their changing rooms.

Square go eh.

[Kato]

Anyone who isn’t in full support of Kamara and Sevco for this specific event is simply a big part of the racism problem/ultimately supports racism.

It's ok to support the individuals who were racially abused because any kind of bigotry is disgusting.

I'll stop short at supporting Sevco though, because any kind of bigotry is disgusting.

[CentreLine]

It would be very surprising, in an empty stadium and with all the media sound equipment around the pitch, if some media outlet has not got a revising of what was said.

[CropleyWasGod]

It would be very surprising, in an empty stadium and with all the media sound equipment around the pitch, if some media outlet has not got a revising of what was said.

... hence why he said "what he said" discreetly.

[A Hi-Bee]

Gerrard and the club needs to have a word with themselves if they allowed that to happen. Pub team mentality

I am sure that Govan’s finest along with the daily ranker will leave no stones unturned in the investigation to get to the bottom of this; west coast football players may even be involved.
:greengrin

[Eyrie]

No problem with Kamara and his teammates taking care of a racist.

But I have a major issue with the hypocrisy being shown by the Sevco bigots.

[Leith Green]

If this guy is found to be guilty , then he should be banned from football for life. All this ***** about taking knees etc yet the perpetrators of racist acts are very rarely hammered like they should be. Instead everyone gets whipped into a frenzy as if all football is racist. Taking knees , black live matter and kick racism out tee-shirts arent the answer . Dealing properly with the **** that actually are racist needs to be the way forward.

[CropleyWasGod]

If this guy is found to be guilty , then he should be banned from football for life. All this ***** about taking knees etc yet the perpetrators of racist acts are very rarely hammered like they should be. Instead everyone gets whipped into a frenzy as if all football is racist. Taking knees , black live matter and kick racism out tee-shirts arent the answer . Dealing properly with the **** that actually are racist needs to be the way forward.

Yet one might suggest that they help to raise awareness, as well as giving encouragement to those who are victims that they will be listened to and taken seriously.

Without those initiatives, would there have been as much made of last night's incident? I'm not so sure.

Both things can be done simultaneously.

[lord bunberry]

No problem with Kamara and his teammates taking care of a racist.

But I have a major issue with the hypocrisy being shown by the Sevco bigots.
That’s where I am with this. The Slavia player won’t be punished and I hope he got what he deserved, but I’ve no time for a vile institution like rangers trying to take the moral high ground. You can’t on one hand condemn racism and on the other hand turn a blind eye to sectarianism. I have no doubt in my mind that Kamara was racially abused and I hope the player responsible is severely punished, but I doubt it will happen.

[Leith Green]

Yet one might suggest that they help to raise awareness, as well as giving encouragement to those who are victims that they will be listened to and taken seriously.

Without those initiatives, would there have been as much made of last night's incident? I'm not so sure.


Yet the likes of luis Suarez are given 8 match bans and a fine when found guilty.. Initiatives are just paying lip service to the issue if the actual racists are not punished properly.

[Iggy Pope]

Yet the likes of luis Suarez are given 8 match bans and a fine when found guilty.. Initiatives are just paying lip service to the issue if the actual racists are not punished properly.

Spot on. Being guilty of a hate crime only kept him off the telly for a few weeks.