Black Lives Matter

[Hibrandenburg]

Another nice thing to know. Maybe the lefties should pay attention and stop moaning.

I just read the bbc report here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56585538 You could blink and you’d miss that; 1. This is the UK Govt saying there is no problem in the UK and 2. The chair of the report is a well known sceptic of structural racism and was hired by Boris for that exact reason.

Meanwhile it’s become obvious that Boris was ****ging Arcuri while awarding her six figure sums and then sneaking home in the early hours to his wife with a cancer diagnosis, and Sunak Cameron and Boris are knee deep in corrupt ****. Not obvious to the beeb though.

Hey, if Sir Keir doesn't have a problem with the Tories behaviour, why should we?

[Keith_M]

#10 report says

There is no
Institutional racism in the UK.

The UK should be used ‘as an exemplar’ for all white majority countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/uk-an-exemplar-of-racial-equality-no-10s-race-commission-concludes

Nice to know.


You know, I started reading that and had decided to be totally objective, to give them a chance to convince me by their argument.... till I read who it was that created the report and that they were hand picked by No10.

I'm not sure if it's considered acceptable in the modern world but the phrase 'Uncle Tom' sprung to mind.

[hibsbollah]

You know, I started reading that and had decided to be totally objective, to give them a chance to convince me by their argument.... till I read who it was that created the report and that they were hand picked by No10.

I'm not sure if it's considered acceptable in the modern world but the phrase 'Uncle Tom' sprung to mind.

:agree: If you are a normal journalist, you ask yourself some questions when writing this story 1. Who commissioned the inquiry 2. What are the political implications of these findings 3. What are the criticisms that might be leveled at the inquiry. But none of that analysis is there from the bbc. And that’s normal.

It might sound dramatic but that’s what you get from the People’s Daily in China. I’ve read both of them recently and there literally is no difference between the way they report on stories like this.

[CMurdoch]

:agree: If you are a normal journalist, you ask yourself some questions when writing this story 1. Who commissioned the inquiry 2. What are the political implications of these findings 3. What are the criticisms that might be leveled at the inquiry. But none of that analysis is there from the bbc. And that’s normal.

It might sound dramatic but that’s what you get from the People’s Daily in China. I’ve read both of them recently and there literally is no difference between the way they report on stories like this.

Basic questions of anyone with an enquiring mind. Who is paying for it and what's their angle.
Generally whoever commissions and pays for a report gets the conclusion they want.
Public sector reports usually take the part of least resistance. Even ones commissioned by a Conservative government.
With regard to the subject of this report, the path of least resistance has always been to say there is racial descrimination. Everyone agrees, there are lots of statements from the public bodies, politicians and funded interested organisations. A load of strategies are put in place and the jobs of those working in the funded interested organisations are safe. The game moves on.
This report is different it takes a path of vast resistance and that shows a worrying arrogance in the government. Much of the content might be true but to say it in such a report is unprecedented in recent times. The Boris, Reece-Moggs etc are a concern. I was never a guy for independence but we live in worrying right wing times.

[lapsedhibee]

The Boris, Reece-Moggs etc are a concern. I was never a guy for independence but we live in worrying right wing times.

If independence is achieved, Johnson and Rees-Mogg should get a special award of some sort from the people, something to recognise their part in winning over the indy-hesitant.

[neil7908]

Tory commissioned report in nothing to see here shocker.

Let's get back to the real questions - why aren't there more Union Jacks on display?

[SHODAN]

Basic questions of anyone with an enquiring mind. Who is paying for it and what's their angle.
Generally whoever commissions and pays for a report gets the conclusion they want.
Public sector reports usually take the part of least resistance. Even ones commissioned by a Conservative government.
With regard to the subject of this report, the path of least resistance has always been to say there is racial descrimination. Everyone agrees, there are lots of statements from the public bodies, politicians and funded interested organisations. A load of strategies are put in place and the jobs of those working in the funded interested organisations are safe. The game moves on.
This report is different it takes a path of vast resistance and that shows a worrying arrogance in the government. Much of the content might be true but to say it in such a report is unprecedented in recent times. The Boris, Reece-Moggs etc are a concern. I was never a guy for independence but we live in worrying right wing times.

After Boris is emptied and Sunak is given a wee stint at the top job, Rees-Mogg will be PM. Then things will take a turn for the disastrous.

[Dinkydoo]

I will admit to thinking this is more about the US Police in general than that particular officer. Given the crime was initially passing a fake 20 and he may have been completely unaware it was fake. The shop workers never even questioned the cash at the time only coming out to the car shortly after. At that point he has every right to tell them where to go as the person accusing him could have swapped twenties. Not saying that is what happened but the reaction of the police to a potential crime is unbelievable over the top to me.

This clip is from a Louis Theroux episode on crime in Philadelphia:

https://youtu.be/5AHHqRXlL5w

Black teenager is seen handing something to another man and runs when the (un-marked) police car start chasing him. He was eventually detained by an elbow (officer being interviewed admits it) and the boy is out cold when the cameras start rolling.

Content isn't graphic, fyi.

"Oh my goodness, What did I do?" and "I ran because in this area, we have drive-by shootings" are just some of the things the young man responds with when being questioned.

The full episode is on IPlayer and quite an eye-opening 60 minutes. The purpose of the documentary is to dig into why the death rate is so high for a city of that size.

Louis concludes - either in this or a 'round-up' episode - that a lot of the mistrust of the police is self-perpetuating; the areas with highest crime are typically high in terms of BAME citizens, therefore they're treated with higher suspicion. Guns are rife, so the police have to act swiftly and with a lot of force. Many innocent people are caught up in incidents like the one in the video and certainly, those that are guilty of *something*, are frequently treated disproportionately to their crime. That breeds a culture of mistrust between these communities and the police.

I'm not sure how you fix that. Everyone has guns, everyone seems scared and on high alert in these areas and scared people make rash decisions.

Not sure it relates directly to the George Floyd case, but its part of the same eco-system of problems. Any blatant racism adds complexity to what is already a mess in certain corners of society to sort out.

[makaveli1875]

This clip is from a Louis Theroux episode on crime in Philadelphia:

https://youtu.be/5AHHqRXlL5w

Black teenager is seen handing something to another man and runs when the (un-marked) police car start chasing him. He was eventually detained by an elbow (officer being interviewed admits it) and the boy is out cold when the cameras start rolling.

Content isn't graphic, fyi.

"Oh my goodness, What did I do?" and "I ran because in this area, we have drive-by shootings" are just some of the things the young man responds with when being questioned.

The full episode is on IPlayer and quite an eye-opening 60 minutes. The purpose of the documentary is to dig into why the death rate is so high for a city of that size.

Louis concludes - either in this or a 'round-up' episode - that a lot of the mistrust of the police is self-perpetuating; the areas with highest crime are typically high in terms of BAME citizens, therefore they're treated with higher suspicion. Guns are rife, so the police have to act swiftly and with a lot of force. Many innocent people are caught up in incidents like the one in the video and certainly, those that are guilty of *something*, are frequently treated disproportionately to their crime. That breeds a culture of mistrust between these communities and the police.

I'm not sure how you fix that. Everyone has guns, everyone seems scared and on high alert in these areas and scared people make rash decisions.

Not sure it relates directly to the George Floyd case, but its part of the same eco-system of problems. Any blatant racism adds complexity to what is already a mess in certain corners of society to sort out.

Is that the 1 with the fat ginger gangster that has the 25000 dollar rolex

[Dinkydoo]

Is that the 1 with the fat ginger gangster that has the 25000 dollar rolexCan't remember if he was ginger but yeah, I think so.

He was high off his ass on PCP when they arrested him after his Mrs got involved in a fight.

Being on first name terms with the officers that arrived, he assumed it was all a big joke [emoji23]

As funny as that was, it kinda underlined how untouchable the big guy was. Or so he thought, until they busted him for real a year later after letting him operate with a bit more freedom, giving him the length of rope required to hang himself.

That was well handled, which is one of the few things I think the police got right in that mini-series.

Edit: apologies for the thread de-rail

[Berwickhibby]

On official site, Hibernian will stop kneeling pre kick off ...rather stand tall in support in the fight against racism

[hibsbollah]

‘Noone should have to suffer this sort of abuse...Enough is Enough’; says Sir David Gray.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/23/police-officer-guilty-of-manslaughter-of-ex-footballer-dalian-atkinson

[wookie70]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/23/police-officer-guilty-of-manslaughter-of-ex-footballer-dalian-atkinson

Does a murder verdict not apply to police Officers. 5 years to get a conviction too for a case that appears fairly straightforward

[He's here!]

Does a murder verdict not apply to police Officers. 5 years to get a conviction too for a case that appears fairly straightforward

Might appear straightforward to those of us not on the jury (and hence not privy to a significant amount of the evidence they would have been presented with). However they deliberated their verdict for nearly 20 hours so they presumably didn't see it as clear cut. For a murder conviction the jury would have to be convinced of 'malice aforethought' which in this case I'd suggest would be hard to make a call on. Atkinson's family seem content with the manslaughter verdict.

[wookie70]

Might appear straightforward to those of us not on the jury (and hence not privy to a significant amount of the evidence they would have been presented with). However they deliberated their verdict for nearly 20 hours so they presumably didn't see it as clear cut. For a murder conviction the jury would have to be convinced of 'malice aforethought' which in this case I'd suggest would be hard to make a call on. Atkinson's family seem content with the manslaughter verdict.

Much of that time may well have been deciding if it was murder, so how guilty he was not deciding on what a truly shocking act had certainly been committed by the accused.

"Judge Melbourne Inman QC had told the 11-strong jury that the Crown had to prove three elements for Monk to be guilty of murder - that the officer had used unlawful force, which caused death, and that he intended to kill Mr Atkinson or cause him really serious harm."

I would say tasering someone for 6 times longer than the usual amount and then booting them in the head should certainly be unlawful. The police are presumably highly trained to use a weapon that can be deadly, and I doubt booting someone in the head is in the manual, so that says to me he intended to cause serious harm. You are correct I'm not privy to all the facts and I am delighted that the police aren't immune to the law but I suspect if the boot was on the other foot it would be murder. Hope the others involved face jail time too and this case marks the start of officers having to face the consequences of their actions but more importantly stops those with mental health issues being tasered and also black men being 8 times more likely to be tasered than white men.

[Berwickhibby]

Much of that time may well have been deciding if it was murder, so how guilty he was not deciding on what a truly shocking act had certainly been committed by the accused.

"Judge Melbourne Inman QC had told the 11-strong jury that the Crown had to prove three elements for Monk to be guilty of murder - that the officer had used unlawful force, which caused death, and that he intended to kill Mr Atkinson or cause him really serious harm."

I would say tasering someone for 6 times longer than the usual amount and then booting them in the head should certainly be unlawful. The police are presumably highly trained to use a weapon that can be deadly, and I doubt booting someone in the head is in the manual, so that says to me he intended to cause serious harm. You are correct I'm not privy to all the facts and I am delighted that the police aren't immune to the law but I suspect if the boot was on the other foot it would be murder. Hope the others involved face jail time too and this case marks the start of officers having to face the consequences of their actions but more importantly stops those with mental health issues being tasered and also black men being 8 times more likely to be tasered than white men.

I cannot disagree with your post, but perhaps if the mental health experts and crisis teams were sent to deal with violent people suffering a mental health breakdown rather the police who normally get an afternoons training on mental health then things might be better.

[He's here!]

I cannot disagree with your post, but perhaps if the mental health experts and crisis teams were sent to deal with violent people suffering a mental health breakdown rather the police who normally get an afternoons training on mental health then things might be better.

That's a fair point I think. Were there any medical personnel on the scene? As far as I can gather his family's first call that day was to the police due to their concerns about Atkinson's behaviour. Bearing in mind his mental health history should there not have been a more established protocol in place? It would seem not.

[wookie70]

I cannot disagree with your post, but perhaps if the mental health experts and crisis teams were sent to deal with violent people suffering a mental health breakdown rather the police who normally get an afternoons training on mental health then things might be better.

That would be a far better solution. I suspect time and resources are also at play as well as knowledge and understanding. I also can't believe that tasers can be kept on for so long, surely they should only be allowed to give one shock before having to press a button to reset. That would protect the officer and also make it clear where one had deliberately went out to hurt someone.

I'm not sure an understanding of mental health would have helped this particular officer but it would have been good to have some other officials who would have been able to try and protect the victim and also acted as witnesses for both the officer and the individual.

[Berwickhibby]

That would be a far better solution. I suspect time and resources are also at play as well as knowledge and understanding. I also can't believe that tasers can be kept on for so long, surely they should only be allowed to give one shock before having to press a button to reset. That would protect the officer and also make it clear where one had deliberately went out to hurt someone.

I'm not sure an understanding of mental health would have helped this particular officer but it would have been good to have some other officials who would have been able to try and protect the victim and also acted as witnesses for both the officer and the individual.

There is the problem, even if an ambulance with paramedics had arrived, If the person showing a psychotic break, they call the police and leave. Crisis teams never leave the hospital and when a patient arrives at a hospital 99/100 are released after a few hours. I am not trying to defend the officer from West Mercia he stepped well over the mark and deserves all that's coming to him. However I can see officers starting to refuse to deal with people suffering with Mental Health breakdowns and say pass it to Health.

[CMurdoch]

There is the problem, even if an ambulance with paramedics had arrived, If the person showing a psychotic break, they call the police and leave. Crisis teams never leave the hospital and when a patient arrives at a hospital 99/100 are released after a few hours. I am not trying to defend the officer from West Mercia he stepped well over the mark and deserves all that's coming to him. However I can see officers starting to refuse to deal with people suffering with Mental Health breakdowns and say pass it to Health.

I agree with all you have said in your last two posts.
The additional thing I would say is the situation is a little bit like a combination of the American cop gun situation and why people shouldn't carry knives.
The similarity is that when people, including cops, get scared enough they will use anything at their disposal until they no longer feel under threat.
In this case the cop uses the taser until he sees there is no chance of Atkinson getting up.
What would he have done before cops had tasers. Two choices, wrestle with the guy or back off until reinforcements arrive then deal with it.
More controversially would things have turned out differently if the another strong male cop had been present instead of a female I.e. two strong men may have physically subdued Atkinson rather than one man deciding to use tazer. Large numbers of female officers and small male cops in the modern day Police service must have downsides in situations like this.

[Kato]

I agree with all you have said in your last few posts.
The additional thing I would say is the situation is a little bit like a combination of the American cop gun situation and why people shouldn't carry knives.
The similarity is that when people, including cops, get scared enough they will use anything at their disposal until they no longer feel under threat.
In this case the cop uses the tazer until he sees there is no chance of Atkinson getting up.

....then starts booting him in the head to the point where the blood soaked into his shoelaces.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[CMurdoch]

[QUOTE=Kato;6601624]....then starts booting him in the head to the point where the blood soaked into his shoelaces.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

Soak isn't accurate..
He kicked Atkinson with force and that caused contact traces as well as spots and splashes of his airbourne blood to be thrown away from the contact point onto the cops boot. It could be a very small amount of blood but easily picked up by forensics.

[Kato]

Thanks for the detail. Point being the violence wasnt limited to overuse of the taser.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[CMurdoch]

Thanks for the detail. Point being the violence wasnt limited to overuse of the taser.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Kicking Atkinson in the head was hellish and sealed the case and conviction. No chance it could be explained away.

The case should raise a wider debate to be had about whether it is appropriate for the Police to be the default service to attend incidents relating to people having mental health episodes especially when that is complicated by serious medical health conditions. That essential information was probably not known to the cops attending the call. Had their despatchers been able to inform them then tasers would have been an inappropriate response given Atkinsons serious heart condition. More appropriately a mental health practitioner could have attended with them. Should there be an information sharing protocol?

There is also a debate to be had about the use of tasers by the Police. Without it they would have had to make a choice of fight or flight and the fatal encounter wouldn't have taken place.

There will be hundreds of similar incidents every day in the UK and a more appropriate public service response is needed than simply dispatching cops.
If it was one of your loved ones having an acute mental health crisis you wouldn't want Police officers attending without a mental health professional.
It's done the way it because that is the easy and cheap option. I won't hold my breath.

[JimBHibees]

Does a murder verdict not apply to police Officers. 5 years to get a conviction too for a case that appears fairly straightforward

Yep 5 years from his death to court is ridiculous especially when family told not to discuss it.

[matty_f]

George Floyd’s killer sentenced to 22.5 years.

[wookie70]

George Floyd’s killer sentenced to 22.5 years.
Disappointed it wasn't more but it is a start.

[Crunchie]

Disappointed it wasn't more but it is a start.
I still say the Daniel Shaver killing/execution by Philip Brailsford is the worst case I've seen yet, and it went unpunished. There's footage of it on you tube.

[wookie70]

I still say the Daniel Shaver killing/execution by Philip Brailsford is the worst case I've seen yet, and it went unpunished. There's footage of it on you tube.

That officer should have got life too. I sat and watched it again and the instructions are not that clear when taken in combination. Combine that with the fact the victim was half cut and wasn't doing anything wrong so would be confused as to why he was being targeted. Again the officer says he went with his training. It makes no difference to the fact that police treat black suspects differently and are far more likely to kill or harm them and at least until very recently know they will get away without convictions.

[He's here!]

I note four men have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy murder in the shooting of Black Lives Matter activist Sasha Johnson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57610694

This is probably a naive question, but are these guys black? If so, is this some sort of gang incident gone wrong? If not, why would they conspire to murder somebody like her?

[Berwickhibby]

I note four men have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy murder in the shooting of Black Lives Matter activist Sasha Johnson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57610694

This is probably a naive question, but are these guys black? If so, is this some sort of gang incident gone wrong? If not, why would they conspire to murder somebody like her?

Johnson does not have to be the intended target, if the accused conspired to kill someone else it's still conspiracy to commit murder.

[CapitalGreen]

I note four men have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy murder in the shooting of Black Lives Matter activist Sasha Johnson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57610694

This is probably a naive question, but are these guys black? If so, is this some sort of gang incident gone wrong? If not, why would they conspire to murder somebody like her?

Could it only be gang-related if they are black?

[CMurdoch]

I note four men have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy murder in the shooting of Black Lives Matter activist Sasha Johnson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57610694

This is probably a naive question, but are these guys black? If so, is this some sort of gang incident gone wrong? If not, why would they conspire to murder somebody like her?

Why don't these black guys believe black lives matter?

[wookie70]

I note four men have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy murder in the shooting of Black Lives Matter activist Sasha Johnson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57610694

This is probably a naive question, but are these guys black? If so, is this some sort of gang incident gone wrong? If not, why would they conspire to murder somebody like her?

I'm sure her friends thought it was gang related and wrong target at the time of the attack.

[Kato]

Why don't these black guys believe black lives matter?

Some homo-sapiens are just bad yins.

[wookie70]

Some homo-sapiens are just bad yins.

Which is what was said at the vigil - One speaker told the crowd: "In every community there are good eggs and bad eggs and we have to make sure those bad eggs are held accountable for their actions.

[He's here!]

Could it only be gang-related if they are black?

No, but in London it's a reasonable assumption to make. Nearly 90% of those on the Metropolitan Police gangs matrix are from a black or ethnic minority social group:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1473225420912331

[Keith_M]

Johnson does not have to be the intended target, if the accused conspired to kill someone else it's still conspiracy to commit murder.


Johnson's family were adamant initially that she was the intended target and criticised the police for not taking threats to her life seriously.

However, it seems highly unlikely that the shooting is related to any of the previous threats as they were (according to her family) racially motivated, but each of the four accused are black.

[Hibrandenburg]

I note four men have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy murder in the shooting of Black Lives Matter activist Sasha Johnson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57610694

This is probably a naive question, but are these guys black? If so, is this some sort of gang incident gone wrong? If not, why would they conspire to murder somebody like her?

It's not racially motivated, I think we can safely rule that out. Otherwise like any murder, it could have any number of motives.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/01/met-officers-face-gross-misconduct-inquiry-over-bianca-williams-search

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1410902612329836546

Statues of Queen vic and Elizabeth toppled in Canada

[Crunchie]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1410902612329836546

Statues of Queen vic and Elizabeth toppled in Canada
These vandals are worldwide now even in one of the most left wing countries in the western world.

[Jones28]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1410902612329836546

Statues of Queen vic and Elizabeth toppled in Canada

Oh the outrage, how angry I am, how dare they, booo hiss

[Moulin Yarns]

These vandals are worldwide now even in one of the most left wing countries in the western world.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57693683

Nothing to do with being left wing. The reason for the protest is a long term cover up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57291530




Meanwhile...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53005243

[Jones28]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57693683

Nothing to do with being left wing. The reason for the protest is a long term cover up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57291530




Meanwhile...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53005243


No no no, you're supposed to get pissed off and ignore the facts MY :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

No no no, you're supposed to get pissed off and ignore the facts MY :rolleyes:

Thankfully I have my own mind, even after more than 40 years of marriage 😉

[Keith_M]

I understand the statues are to be replaced by 'works of art' from this guy, forever protecting them from vandalism...


https://news.artnet.com/art-world/italian-artist-auctioned-off-invisible-sculpture-18300-literally-made-nothing-1976181

[Berwickhibby]

As the schools in both Kamloops and Cowesses were run by the Roman Catholic Church are churches and cathedrals next to be pulled down and vandalised?

[Keith_M]

As the schools in both Kamloops and Cowesses were run by the Roman Catholic Church are churches and cathedrals next to be pulled down and vandalised?


Apparently the Orange Order have offered to assist in any way possible.

[Mon Dieu4]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1410902612329836546

Statues of Queen vic and Elizabeth toppled in Canada

Good stuff, I'm going to topple Victoria at the Kirkgate and replace her with a statue of Darren McGregor

[Stairway 2 7]

Queen Elizabeth is a parasite and seeingthem toppleis funny... But toppling her statue for crimes committed in Canada by the Catholic Church mostly in the time it had independence, is a stretch. If going anywhere probably statues of priests and Canadian prime ministers might be better first.

[Moulin Yarns]

Queen Elizabeth is a parasite and seeingthem toppleis funny... But toppling her statue for crimes committed in Canada by the Catholic Church mostly in the time it had independence, is a stretch. If going anywhere probably statues of priests and Canadian prime ministers might be better first.

The schools were established in 1890,guess who was the monarch of the commonwealth then?

[Stairway 2 7]

The schools were established in 1890,guess who was the monarch of the commonwealth then?

Aye I'm sure she was right involved in the setting up of Catholic schools in Canada

[Keith_M]

The schools were established in 1890,guess who was the monarch of the commonwealth then?


That's true, but I'd be amazed if she played any part in the decision making in Canada at the time.

I honestly couldn't care less about the statues but I think the posters that have suggested there are more legitimate targets for the ire of the protesters do kind of have a point.

[Moulin Yarns]

Aye I'm sure she was right involved in the setting up of Catholic schools in Canada

I'm sure the articles said that they were set up by the Canadian government and run by the church.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's true, but I'd be amazed if she played any part in the decision making in Canada at the time.

I honestly couldn't care less about the statues but I think the posters that have suggested there are more legitimate targets for the ire of the protesters do kind of have a point.

Statues are just bits of metal although wrong target at least it highlights the utter disgusting case. Can't believe it was happening in 1998. The *******s were obviously not just doing it in Ireland, well portrayed in philomena and magdalene sisters

[JeMeSouviens]

The schools were established in 1890,guess who was the monarch of the commonwealth then?

In 1890? Try dominion of the British empire. :wink:

[Jones28]

Aye I'm sure she was right involved in the setting up of Catholic schools in Canada


That's true, but I'd be amazed if she played any part in the decision making in Canada at the time.

I honestly couldn't care less about the statues but I think the posters that have suggested there are more legitimate targets for the ire of the protesters do kind of have a point.


I'm sure the articles said that they were set up by the Canadian government and run by the church.


Isn't that the price you pay for the privilege for being head of state? Things that happen under your jurisdiction must be taken responsibility for, good and bad.

[Stairway 2 7]

Isn't that the price you pay for the privilege for being head of state? Things that happen under your jurisdiction must be taken responsibility for, good and bad.

In a word no

[Keith_M]

Statues are just bits of metal although wrong target at least it highlights the utter disgusting case. Can't believe it was happening in 1998. The *******s were obviously not just doing it in Ireland, well portrayed in philomena and magdalene sisters


I agree and that is an amazing film that really shocked me, as I'd never really heard the story behind it before.

This kind of behaviour seems to have been widespread and the people engaged in it (or those that wilfully turned a blind eye or covered it up) are, quite frankly, evil.

[CropleyWasGod]

Queen Elizabeth is a parasite and seeingthem toppleis funny... But toppling her statue for crimes committed in Canada by the Catholic Church mostly in the time it had independence, is a stretch. If going anywhere probably statues of priests and Canadian prime ministers might be better first.

According to the report I read, statues of individuals involved in the schools were also defaced and dismantled across Canada.

That's less of a headline, though 🤔

[Stairway 2 7]

According to the report I read, statues of individuals involved in the schools were also defaced and dismantled across Canada.

That's less of a headline, though 🤔

I'm glad. And I'm also not going to cry over spilt monarch's

[Moulin Yarns]

According to the report I read, statues of individuals involved in the schools were also defaced and dismantled across Canada.

That's less of a headline, though 🤔

I hadn't also realised that this was happening on Canada Day, which might explain the Queen Vic and Lizzie II statues being brought down.

[CropleyWasGod]

I hadn't also realised that this was happening on Canada Day, which might explain the Queen Vic and Lizzie II statues being brought down.

Many events that had been planned for the day were called off in light of the scandal.

[Keith_M]

I see Danyell Hussain, the killer of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman has been convicted of murder and will be sentenced in September.

Apparently he'd already been highlighted as a potential radicalization risk and referred to the Prevent program in 2017, but since then he seems to have gone completely off the deep end and claims he 'made a pact with the devil' that lead to the killings.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/06/danyal-hussein-found-guilty-of-murdering-two-sisters-in-london-park

[Ozyhibby]

Statues are just bits of metal although wrong target at least it highlights the utter disgusting case. Can't believe it was happening in 1998. The *******s were obviously not just doing it in Ireland, well portrayed in philomena and magdalene sisters

The Catholic Church will pay a price here too. It has never recovered from the scandals in Ireland and I doubt it will in Canada either. And rightly so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crunchie]

The Catholic Church will pay a price here too. It has never recovered from the scandals in Ireland and I doubt it will in Canada either. And rightly so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If they've not paid a price by now they never will.

[He's here!]

James Gillespie's High School to 'cancel' To Kill a Mockingbird and Of Mice and Men from the curriculum and 'replace them with those that better represent people of colour and portray them as the main characters':

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/edinburgh-school-to-kill-a-mockingbird-b1878806.htm

I've not read Of Mice and Men but To Kill a Mockingbird is a great book (and a superb film). I'd always seen it as a an anti-racist novel. It's set in the American deep south of the 1930s and has been lauded for its wholly realistic depiction of racism. I recall Oprah Winfrey describing it as "America's national novel".

Is there no space for a bit of context in literature (or indeed our wider culture) any more? And how about literary value? Isn't that of any importance to a school's English department?

[CropleyWasGod]

James Gillespie's High School to 'cancel' To Kill a Mockingbird and Of Mice and Men from the curriculum and 'replace them with those that better represent people of colour and portray them as the main characters':

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/edinburgh-school-to-kill-a-mockingbird-b1878806.htm

I've not read Of Mice and Men but To Kill a Mockingbird is a great book (and a superb film). I'd always seen it as a an anti-racist novel. It's set in the American deep south of the 1930s and has been lauded for its wholly realistic depiction of racism. I recall Oprah Winfrey describing it as "America's national novel".

Is there no space for a bit of context in literature (or indeed our wider culture) any more? And how about literary value? Isn't that of any importance to a school's English department?

Can you post the full article, please?

[Moulin Yarns]

Can you post the full article, please?

🤣🤣🤣🤣

That's a bit like asking a fish to ride a bike.

[Keith_M]

Can you post the full article, please?


Not the Full Article, but this is the reasoning from the School.



"James Gillespie's High School in Edinburgh has banned the teaching of Pulitzer-winning To Kill a Mockingbird over fears of it promoting a "white saviour" narrative. Allan Crosbie, the curriculum leader for English at the school, is also banning Of Mice and Men in a bid to 'decolonise' the curriculum.

Mr Crosbie spoke at the annual meeting of the EIS teaching union:

“Probably like every English department in the country, we still have Of Mice and Men and To Kill a Mockingbird [on] the shelves.

"They are now taught less frequently because those novels are dated and problematical in terms of decolonising the curriculum.

"Their lead characters are not people of colour. The representation of people of colour is dated, and the use of the N-word and the use of the white saviour motif in Mockingbird these have led us as a department to decide that these really are not texts we want to be teaching third year any more.”

To Kill a Mockingbird is one of the classics taught across the country. The novel is narrated by Scout Finch, a six-year-old tomboy who lives with her lawyer father Atticus and her ten-year-old brother Jem. The book addresses issues of rape, racism, and the criminal justice system during America's Great Depression. Despite race playing a central part in the novel, all of the central characters are white."

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/school-cancels-to-kill-a-mockingbird-due-to-white-saviour-narrative-279287

[neil7908]

James Gillespie's High School to 'cancel' To Kill a Mockingbird and Of Mice and Men from the curriculum and 'replace them with those that better represent people of colour and portray them as the main characters':

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/edinburgh-school-to-kill-a-mockingbird-b1878806.htm

I've not read Of Mice and Men but To Kill a Mockingbird is a great book (and a superb film). I'd always seen it as a an anti-racist novel. It's set in the American deep south of the 1930s and has been lauded for its wholly realistic depiction of racism. I recall Oprah Winfrey describing it as "America's national novel".

Is there no space for a bit of context in literature (or indeed our wider culture) any more? And how about literary value? Isn't that of any importance to a school's English department?

I've read them both and they are good books. But they are dated now and plenty of other good books our there. I don't personally see an issue with what we teach in our schools evolving over time.

[CropleyWasGod]

I've read them both and they are good books. But they are dated now and plenty of other good books our there. I don't personally see an issue with what we teach in our schools evolving over time.

Agreed about their being decent books.

There's a debate to be had about the culture and attitudes of the times they were written in, but I'd suggest that the English class isn't the place to have it. Modern Studies would be more appropriate IMO.

[neil7908]

Agreed about their being decent books.

There's a debate to be had about the culture and attitudes of the times they were written in, but I'd suggest that the English class isn't the place to have it. Modern Studies would be more appropriate IMO.

I'm just not sure they are essential for a modern audience. I've read plenty of other books in the 20 or so years since I was taught them at school, and there are loads of classics out there that would have a better chance of connecting with younger generations and deserve to be read.

I just don't like this idea that we can't change our curriculum. Attitudes change - so should how we teach our kids.

[He's here!]

Can you post the full article, please?

The Independent usually allows you a 'free' read before asking you to register?

I now can't call up the full story either, but here's the Associated Press version:

Edinburgh school cancels To Kill a Mockingbird over 'white saviour' narrative

AP

To Kill A Mockingbird will no longer be taught to pupils at a secondary school after teachers claimed the book promotes a "white saviour" narrative.

The seminal text is to be excluded from classrooms at James Gillespie High School in Edinburgh as part of wider plans to decolonise the curriculum amid concerns over its "dated" approach to race.

The 1960 work tells the story of a black man in Alabama who is falsely accused of rape by the town's citizens and later defended by a white lawyer, Atticus Finch.

John Steinbeck’s classic novel Of Mice and Men will also be phased out over its use of the N-word, according to Allan Crosbie, the school’s head of English.

The proposals are part of a wider initiative to “decolonise” the curriculum, with greater emphasis placed on works from non-white authors with less Western-centric viewpoints to better reflect a diverse range of experiences.

Mr Crosbie, in an online meeting with the Educational Institue of Scotland (EIS), Scotland’s largest teaching union, said the novels were "dated and problematical in terms of decolonising the curriculum. Their lead characters are not people of color.

"The representation of people of colour is dated, and the use of the N-word and the use of the white saviour motif in Mockingbird – these have led us as a department to decide that these really are not texts we want to be teaching third year anymore."

But critics of the proposal say it is wrong to judge literature by today’s standards, with the focus instead being upon their literary merit.

Calvin Robinson, a former school governor and policy advisor to the Department of Education, said: “We can contextualise them. Teachers are not just reading the books, they are teaching English literature.

“It’s very sad we are scraping through old texts and judging them by today’s standards rather than teaching them for their literary value."

Columnist Brendan O'Neill added: "This is the thing about the censorious, humourless cancel-culture frenzy – it rips everything out of context. So To Kill A Mockingbird can be branded racist, or at least 'problematical', despite being the most famous anti-racist novel ever written.

"This is the world we live in now – one where even Harper Lee, for heaven's sake, can be written off as a promoter of dodgy ideas. Listen, if they can come for Lee, they can come for anybody."

[hibsbollah]

The Independent usually allows you a 'free' read before asking you to register?

I now can't call up the full story either, but here's the Associated Press version:

Edinburgh school cancels To Kill a Mockingbird over 'white saviour' narrative

AP

To Kill A Mockingbird will no longer be taught to pupils at a secondary school after teachers claimed the book promotes a "white saviour" narrative.

The seminal text is to be excluded from classrooms at James Gillespie High School in Edinburgh as part of wider plans to decolonise the curriculum amid concerns over its "dated" approach to race.

The 1960 work tells the story of a black man in Alabama who is falsely accused of rape by the town's citizens and later defended by a white lawyer, Atticus Finch.

John Steinbeck’s classic novel Of Mice and Men will also be phased out over its use of the N-word, according to Allan Crosbie, the school’s head of English.

The proposals are part of a wider initiative to “decolonise” the curriculum, with greater emphasis placed on works from non-white authors with less Western-centric viewpoints to better reflect a diverse range of experiences.

Mr Crosbie, in an online meeting with the Educational Institue of Scotland (EIS), Scotland’s largest teaching union, said the novels were "dated and problematical in terms of decolonising the curriculum. Their lead characters are not people of color.

"The representation of people of colour is dated, and the use of the N-word and the use of the white saviour motif in Mockingbird – these have led us as a department to decide that these really are not texts we want to be teaching third year anymore."

But critics of the proposal say it is wrong to judge literature by today’s standards, with the focus instead being upon their literary merit.

Calvin Robinson, a former school governor and policy advisor to the Department of Education, said: “We can contextualise them. Teachers are not just reading the books, they are teaching English literature.

“It’s very sad we are scraping through old texts and judging them by today’s standards rather than teaching them for their literary value."

Columnist Brendan O'Neill added: "This is the thing about the censorious, humourless cancel-culture frenzy – it rips everything out of context. So To Kill A Mockingbird can be branded racist, or at least 'problematical', despite being the most famous anti-racist novel ever written.

"This is the world we live in now – one where even Harper Lee, for heaven's sake, can be written off as a promoter of dodgy ideas. Listen, if they can come for Lee, they can come for anybody."




Unsurprising in the case of TKAM, the white saviour narrative isn’t exactly subtle. A great book (and film) but obviously dated.

MAM is a book I got introduced to at 3rd year and I loved it, so on a personal level it’s a shame, and actually I think using the N word is easily explained by a good teacher and explaining the historical context of the use of that word. There’s similar problems with another classic America novel Huckleberry Finn, and Madame Bovary from french literature.

But that’s what the curriculum should do, it moves books around, makes more relevant works take the place of outdated ones, it’s nothing new. It just makes it into the news because there’s a culture war going on.

[He's here!]

Unsurprising in the case of TKAM, the white saviour narrative isn’t exactly subtle. A great book (and film) but obviously dated.

MAM is a book I got introduced to at 3rd year and I loved it, so on a personal level it’s a shame, and actually I think using the N word is easily explained by a good teacher and explaining the historical context of the use of that word. There’s similar problems with another classic America novel Huckleberry Finn, and Madame Bovary from french literature.

But that’s what the curriculum should do, it moves books around, makes more relevant works take the place of outdated ones, it’s nothing new. It just makes it into the news because there’s a culture war going on.

How can a book or film be anything but 'dated' when they were made or written some 60 years ago? If the use of N word in MAM can be explained in its historical context by a good teacher why not in TKAM?

I agree with what you say re continuing to refresh the curriculum, but I don't get the impression that's what's causing the kickback from lovers of those books here. It's the rationale that the English department at James Gillespie's are giving for cancelling the books that seems questionable ie their literary merit appears to have been swept aside due to the fact (in the words of the teacher quoted) "their lead characters are not people of colour".

[CropleyWasGod]

How can a book or film be anything but 'dated' when they were made or written some 60 years ago? If the use of N word in MAM can be explained in its historical context by a good teacher why not in TKAM?

I agree with what you say re continuing to refresh the curriculum, but I don't get the impression that's what's causing the kickback from lovers of those books here. It's the rationale that the English department at James Gillespie's are giving for cancelling the books that seems questionable ie their literary merit appears to have been swept aside due to the fact (in the words of the teacher quoted) "their lead characters are not people of colour".

They're not "cancelling" the books, though, in the sense that they are being made unavailable to the kids. The books remain in the school library. Pupils can still read them and, with a decent teacher, the debate can be had.

Removing them completely would be a different issue.

[Keith_M]

Unsurprising in the case of TKAM, the white saviour narrative isn’t exactly subtle. A great book (and film) but obviously dated.

MAM is a book I got introduced to at 3rd year and I loved it, so on a personal level it’s a shame, and actually I think using the N word is easily explained by a good teacher and explaining the historical context of the use of that word. There’s similar problems with another classic America novel Huckleberry Finn, and Madame Bovary from french literature.

But that’s what the curriculum should do, it moves books around, makes more relevant works take the place of outdated ones, it’s nothing new. It just makes it into the news because there’s a culture war going on.


I get the point you're making but I'm not sure it's the 'relevance' part the decision was based on, but more that today's version of what is and is not acceptable is being applied.

Some books are quite clearly unacceptable, but how far do you take this?

[hibsbollah]

How can a book or film be anything but 'dated' when they were made or written some 60 years ago? If the use of N word in MAM can be explained in its historical context by a good teacher why not in TKAM?

I agree with what you say re continuing to refresh the curriculum, but I don't get the impression that's what's causing the kickback from lovers of those books here. It's the rationale that the English department at James Gillespie's are giving for cancelling the books that seems questionable ie their literary merit appears to have been swept aside due to the fact (in the words of the teacher quoted) "their lead characters are not people of colour".

The first question is easy to explain; there is a difference between the books narrative being ‘dated’, and the chronological age of those books, which is of course a completely different meaning of the word ‘dated’.

When TKAM was written the white saviour narrative was acceptable, and didn’t detract from the laudable intention of the book, which was to draw attention to racism in an age when it was totally ignored. It broke new ground. But Atticus Finch being white is a weird device from a modern perspective, it’s unnatural that the lead character is white when the story is about the black experience. That’s a result of the period that the author was working in. That’s what the Gillespies teacher is saying.

Works of fiction become dated is an everyday thing, I notice it when watching Animal House movies I loved 30 years ago, or Dances with Wolves. Gogglebox the other day highlighted similar opinions when the celebrities were watching Back to the Future, very problematic portrayal of date rape as entertainment which just isn’t family entertainment anymore but was in the 80s.

In the case of TKAM, its the job of educators to think of the most rewarding books to study, if you’re looking at race as a theme, something like Zadie Smiths White Teeth has ‘dated’ pretty well and still addresses similar themes, albeit with a bit more humour involved.

You mention the impression you get as to the reason for the kickback against the decision; I think your impression is formed by the way the article is written, which is essentially in a **** stirring tone designed to stir up culture wars about ‘cancel culture’ (cringe). What’s the implication, keep reading the same stuff century to century? Kids need to read up to date work or they won’t read at all.

[Keith_M]

Here's another point of view, from Sir Geoff Palmer, The Honorary President of the Edinburgh and Lothians Equality council...


"We can't just throw the book in the bin. It's part of the story of racism. We need to keep it, teach it and explain it."

"I fully support the principle of decolonisation of the curriculum but where would it stop? If we remove To Kill a Mockingbird is Othello next or the Slaves Lament?

"We have to be careful here. Instead of removing this book from classrooms we need to show how the book embodies the racism of its time. That same racism that killed George Floyd. The injustice depicted in the text helps give us a view of and understand why we still have racism today. If we hide it away, the fact is we are saying children are not capable of understanding."

"It's not 'white centric'. The fact is black people at the time were not able to defend themselves in court. Today, we have black lawyers but recently we saw one being mistakenly perceived as the client. We still need to look at racism and explain it to help better understand where it comes from and why it's unacceptable."

Sir Geoff who leads the Edinburgh Slavery and Colonialism Legacy Review Group called for a survey of pupils to inform any decisions to remove important literary works.

"Let's see evidence and ask the pupils their views before making these arbitrary decisions.

"To me the book is an opportunity to discuss, debate and to learn from. I don't want to see this approach being extended to other books with black people in the stories.

“You can't solve racism by putting texts with uncomfortable realities in the bucket. The next thing I want to hear from educational institutions is that they have removed racism, not books. That's an easy option, it's a diversion."

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/education/keep-it-teach-it-explain-it-sir-geoff-palmer-blasts-top-schools-decision-to-ditch-to-kill-a-mockingbird-over-dated-depiction-of-race-3300041

[He's here!]

Here's another point of view, from Sir Geoff Palmer, The Honorary President of the Edinburgh and Lothians Equality council...


"We can't just throw the book in the bin. It's part of the story of racism. We need to keep it, teach it and explain it."

"I fully support the principle of decolonisation of the curriculum but where would it stop? If we remove To Kill a Mockingbird is Othello next or the Slaves Lament?

"We have to be careful here. Instead of removing this book from classrooms we need to show how the book embodies the racism of its time. That same racism that killed George Floyd. The injustice depicted in the text helps give us a view of and understand why we still have racism today. If we hide it away, the fact is we are saying children are not capable of understanding."

"It's not 'white centric'. The fact is black people at the time were not able to defend themselves in court. Today, we have black lawyers but recently we saw one being mistakenly perceived as the client. We still need to look at racism and explain it to help better understand where it comes from and why it's unacceptable."

Sir Geoff who leads the Edinburgh Slavery and Colonialism Legacy Review Group called for a survey of pupils to inform any decisions to remove important literary works.

"Let's see evidence and ask the pupils their views before making these arbitrary decisions.

"To me the book is an opportunity to discuss, debate and to learn from. I don't want to see this approach being extended to other books with black people in the stories.

“You can't solve racism by putting texts with uncomfortable realities in the bucket. The next thing I want to hear from educational institutions is that they have removed racism, not books. That's an easy option, it's a diversion."

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/education/keep-it-teach-it-explain-it-sir-geoff-palmer-blasts-top-schools-decision-to-ditch-to-kill-a-mockingbird-over-dated-depiction-of-race-3300041

He's spot on in my view. There's an unpleasant arrogance to this decision from Gillespie's and very little from the past would survive the sort of rationale they apply. People thought and spoke differently in times gone by. Who'd have thought it?

[hibsbollah]

He's spot on in my view. There's an unpleasant arrogance to this decision from Gillespie's and very little from the past would survive the sort of rationale they apply. People thought and spoke differently in times gone by. Who'd have thought it?

You haven’t responded to my post, which you don’t have to of course, but Palmer mentions putting the book ‘in the bucket’, which is such silly, because no one is doing that :dunno: it’s all a bit straw man, Palmers clever enough to know the actual situation.

There’s lots of interesting discussions to be had on the subject of art and literature throwing up uncomfortable reflections to modern day consumers of that art, if we’re living in normal rational times when normal debate can be had. Unfortunately we’re not living in times like that.

[Keith_M]

You haven’t responded to my post, which you don’t have to of course, but Palmer mentions putting the book ‘in the bucket’, which is such silly, because no one is doing that :dunno: it’s all a bit straw man, Palmers clever enough to know the actual situation.

There’s lots of interesting discussions to be had on the subject of art and literature throwing up uncomfortable reflections to modern day consumers of that art, if we’re living in normal rational times when normal debate can be had. Unfortunately we’re not living in times like that.



RE: the bit in bold, I definitely agree.

[Ozyhibby]

I enjoyed both books at school but I’m sure there are hundreds of other books that are just as good. I don’t see this as a big deal really. My sons school have dropped them as well although he has already done both. It’s great that these schools are really thinking about what the kids study and I’m certain they will replace it with other great books.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CapitalGreen]

If the books used as part of the English curriculum were never changed then TKAM would never have been part of the curriculum at all.

[CapitalGreen]

Here's another point of view, from Sir Geoff Palmer, The Honorary President of the Edinburgh and Lothians Equality council...


"We can't just throw the book in the bin. It's part of the story of racism. We need to keep it, teach it and explain it."

[I]"

Could just end his interview with the part in bold as absolutely nobody at Gillespies suggested throwing the book in the bin.

[Kato]

Could just end his interview with the part in bold as absolutely nobody at Gillespies suggested throwing the book in the bin.Saved my breath.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

You haven’t responded to my post, which you don’t have to of course, but Palmer mentions putting the book ‘in the bucket’, which is such silly, because no one is doing that :dunno: it’s all a bit straw man, Palmers clever enough to know the actual situation.

There’s lots of interesting discussions to be had on the subject of art and literature throwing up uncomfortable reflections to modern day consumers of that art, if we’re living in normal rational times when normal debate can be had. Unfortunately we’re not living in times like that.


I'm guessing Palmer's also clever enough to know most folk reading that won't take him literally.

Re your earlier post, I respect your viewpoint but I think there will always be much to be learned from the past, particularly when it's depicted in such a beautifully written novel. Are third year pupils not old enough to handle so-called 'problematic' issues from bygone eras? Is it really the role of the English teacher to only give them what they can supposedly relate to? Sometimes a bit of what you didn't think you'd like can do you good. Stepping away from the race issue (though I'm sure there are numerous 'problematic' aspects of his work to be found if I think hard enough about it) I used to find Dickens a chore to plough through but I now very much enjoy escaping into the likes of Great Expectations on the rare occasions time allows. I doubt I'd even consider doing so had I not been taught to become familiar with such works in my (much) younger days. TKAM is a genuinely classic novel and I think it's a terrific shame that kids are being dissuaded from enjoying it by actions such as Gillespie's. If all great novels from the past can be viewed only through a moral lens then what actually makes them great (plot, prose, character and the simple joy of a compelling story) are sadly lost.

[Keith_M]

Could just end his interview with the part in bold as absolutely nobody at Gillespies suggested throwing the book in the bin.



I think it's just his choice of words to reflect the situation.

I didn't get the feeling he was saying it would literally be thrown in the bin... or removed from every bookshop.


But I'm sure you knew that.

[CapitalGreen]

I think it's just his choice of words to reflect the situation.

I didn't get the feeling he was saying it would literally be thrown in the bin... or removed from every bookshop.


But I'm sure you knew that.

If someone needs to resort to hyperbole to try and make their point stronger, it typically means their point is weak to begin with but as a literary expert I’m sure he knows that.

[Keith_M]

If someone needs to resort to hyperbole to try and make their point stronger, it typically means their point is weak to begin with but as a literary expert I’m sure he knows that.


"It is easier for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
(Some religious guy in roughly 30AD)

---------

"Born on a mountain top in Tennessee
Greenest state in the land of the free
Raised in the woods so he knew ev’ry tree
..."
(Song about Davy Crocket)

---------

"Well now, one winter it was so cold that all the geese flew backward and all the fish moved south and even the snow turned blue. Late at night, it got so frigid that all spoken words froze solid afore they could be heard. People had to wait until sunup to find out what folks were talking about the night before,"

From: Babe the Blue Ox, (S.E. Schlosser)



...and finally...



'Budweiser, the King of Beers'


---------

Hyperbole, the go-to technique for losers

:wink:

[hibsbollah]

Many events that had been planned for the day were called off in light of the scandal.

This **** from Canada, in living memory, is truly unbelievable.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6S4nYgAtL8yKNvtH7VXMMQ?si=mNvMvoe7QBajdkuPxjEMGQ&dl_branch=1

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/11/19/us/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-friday/index.html

Shock

[hibsbollah]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/11/19/us/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-friday/index.html

Shock

A free pass for vigilantes.

[matty_f]

A free pass for vigilantes.

For white vigilantes.

[Glory Lurker]

One of them threw a bag at him and chased him. Aye, impossible to protect yourself in that situation without killing someone. And the boy wants to be a nurse????

[neil7908]

One of them threw a bag at him and chased him. Aye, impossible to protect yourself in that situation without killing someone. And the boy wants to be a nurse????

The really sad thing is he'll go on to make a lot of money out of this. Already got an interview lined up with Tucker Carlson.

[hibsbollah]

Ahmaud Arbery killers found guilty.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/24/ahmaud-arbery-murder-trial-reveals-racism-us

[bigwheel]

Ahmaud Arbery killers found guilty.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/24/ahmaud-arbery-murder-trial-reveals-racism-us

At last - some justice

[Keith_M]

At last - some justice


:agree:


I remember being totally shocked when reading about that case and still can't get my head round how people could behave like that.

[bigwheel]

:agree:


I remember being totally shocked when reading about that case and still can't get my head round how people could behave like that.

In such a divisive and hate filled world , seeing rightful justice is an important moment

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-47317701

What I don't understand is why he decided to set up the hoax attack in the first place? Did he think it would boost his career?

[Keyser Sauzee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-47317701

What I don't understand is why he decided to set up the hoax attack in the first place? Did he think it would boost his career?

I’m assuming he thought it would gain him sympathy and support and thus boost his profile so he might get bigger roles in the future.

[Keith_M]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-47317701

What I don't understand is why he decided to set up the hoax attack in the first place? Did he think it would boost his career?


I’m assuming he thought it would gain him sympathy and support and thus boost his profile so he might get bigger roles in the future.


Somebody that's willing to fake something like this, whether it's for sympathy or his career, is sick in the head.

This will just give ammunition to those people that deny racism or homophobia in society and shows no feelings whatsoever for the many people that have genuinely suffered attacks like the one he just made up.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/01/fury-in-manchester-as-black-teenagers-jailed-as-result-of-telegram-chat

Mass Guilt by group association, very interesting and let’s be honest, only happens to certain groups of young people.

[Keith_M]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/01/fury-in-manchester-as-black-teenagers-jailed-as-result-of-telegram-chat

Mass Guilt by group association, very interesting and let’s be honest, only happens to certain groups of young people.


I'm not sure about the logic of convicting three of these guys that hadn't taken part in the actual attacks, but the judge did say that it was suggested they'd posted details online to assist others to attack the rival gang members and also posted messages encouraging violence.

I'm honestly on the fence on this one, not sure what to think either way.

[hibsbollah]

Very disturbing video of an event in Memphis earlier this month just emerging online.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257

[Keith_M]

Very disturbing video of an event in Memphis earlier this month just emerging online.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257


It's absolutely horrific but... can this really be put down as a racist killing?

Here's a photo of the five accused police officers.



26417

[hibsbollah]

It's absolutely horrific but... can this really be put down as a racist killing?

Here's a photo of the five accused police officers.



26417

Obviously not, but is still going to provoke a furious reaction.

[Sylar]

Obviously not, but is still going to provoke a furious reaction.

Willing to bet the BBC lead story tomorrow morning is unrest in Memphis. As you say, the reaction will rightly be furious!

[Bristolhibby]

It's absolutely horrific but... can this really be put down as a racist killing?

Here's a photo of the five accused police officers.



26417

The individuals no. The system they operated and murdered in, absolutely it’s racist.

NWA said it back in the day.

But don't let it be a black and a white one
'Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top
Black police showin' out for the white cop

The white cop may not have been there, but they were “showin out”.

J

[He's here!]

The individuals no. The system they operated and murdered in, absolutely it’s racist.

NWA said it back in the day.

But don't let it be a black and a white one
'Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top
Black police showin' out for the white cop

The white cop may not have been there, but they were “showin out”.

J

Five black police officers kill a black civilian but white people are to blame?

Isn't it simply shocking police brutality irrespective of colour?

[Bristolhibby]

Five black police officers kill a black civilian but white people are to blame?

Isn't it simply shocking police brutality irrespective of colour?

It is shocking Police brutality. Enabled by a racist system.

By and large, statistically in America white people aren’t dragged from their car and beaten to death by Police. Black people are much more likely to have this happen to them. The racist system in America enabled this death.

J

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Five black police officers kill a black civilian but white people are to blame?

Isn't it simply shocking police brutality irrespective of colour?

There's another racist element being played up by civil rights authorities in the US today. That being how quickly the authorities have come down on the black officers and charged them compared to similar cases where white officers were the culprits.

[Stairway 2 7]

There's another racist element being played up by civil rights authorities in the US today. That being how quickly the authorities have come down on the black officers and charged them compared to similar cases where white officers were the culprits.

I can't think of the last comparable case. This couldn't be argued to be an accident by the defence. It wasn't a shooting, which they nutters say is OK in defence, it wasn't loosing breath by constraining him. It was five people repeatedly kicking like a football all over the body. I'm sure there has been others since Rodney King but I can't think

[Stairway 2 7]

There doesn't need to be an argument that America is institutionally racist especially the police and judiciary system.

But putting it down to the system gives these 5 monsters a defence they don't deserve. This is five humans with a disregard for others lives. I'm surprised billions haven't been put into training and reorganisation in the American police because it needs it. Corrupt and vile far too often

[Bristolhibby]

There doesn't need to be an argument that America is institutionally racist especially the police and judiciary system.

But putting it down to the system gives these 5 monsters a defence they don't deserve. This is five humans with a disregard for others lives. I'm surprised billions haven't been put into training and reorganisation in the American police because it needs it. Corrupt and vile far too often

Oh they are monsterous killers make no mistake. But would they have killed Tyre if he was white?

Would five black officers drag him from his car and carry out a sustained beating while he’s calling for his Mum to help him?

Would not happen. Hence a racist killing. The murderers just happened to be black.

J

[Stairway 2 7]

Oh they are monsterous killers make no mistake. But would they have killed Tyre if he was white?

Would five black officers drag him from his car and carry out a sustained beating while he’s calling for his Mum to help him?

Would not happen. Hence a racist killing. The murderers just happened to be black.

J

There is about 500 white people killed by police in the US each year. Black is usually just under half that when it should be a quarter by population.

It's racist and disproportionate but cops in America seem to have the right to kill their civilians

[He's here!]

There doesn't need to be an argument that America is institutionally racist especially the police and judiciary system.

But putting it down to the system gives these 5 monsters a defence they don't deserve. This is five humans with a disregard for others lives. I'm surprised billions haven't been put into training and reorganisation in the American police because it needs it. Corrupt and vile far too often

Indeed. Around a third of US police forces are non-white. Seems a bit of a stretch to suggest they would opt for a police career to 'show out' to the white members of the force. The 'system' cannot be a defence.

[neil7908]

Indeed. Around a third of US police forces are non-white. Seems a bit of a stretch to suggest they would opt for a police career to 'show out' to the white members of the force. The 'system' cannot be a defence.

Genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on how 5 officers can all carry out the same savage beating, while a number of others then fail to take action to help the person, and it's not a systemic issue.

One police officer and the one bad apple line can sort of make sense. But surely with this many involved it must be something else. The fact they have disbanded their unit is pretty telling.

[wookie70]

I started watching 1619 9n the firestick yesterday. So much I don't know about American and Black history. Very good if difficult watch