Black Lives Matter

[IvanSproule]

I don't of course think the cops deliberately let him go knowing he was the shooter.

It was that they didn't even think of him as a suspect. I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this one but if a black male gunned down 2 people, not a chance in hell they are walking by the cops out of the crime scene with the murder weapon strapped across them.


I think we may just have different readings of the footage, I don't think it's that the cops didn't see him as a suspect, I think it's that they didn't even know there had been a shooting yet. In the footage, the shooter is already amongst the police cars when one of the cars announces over speaker "somebody's injured over there" they then all speed off to the casualties.

Racial profiling is undoubtedly a problem in policing and not just in the U.S but I just don't think it manifested itself in this case.

[Moulin Yarns]

I never knew that first aid kits came with hand guns. You learn something new every day.

Considering every man and his dog in the US has at least one gun it is not surprising that Gaige appears to have a gun, the default position in your country seems to be the best form of defence is wave a gun about.

Admittedly a gun is clearly more effective against an out of control young man with an illegal gun than a plastic bag (Anthony) or a skateboard (Joseph)

[Beefster]

If anyone likes seeing racists getting knocked spark out.

This is the Tweet for you.

https://twitter.com/panoparker/status/1295327666665553920?s=21

J

It’s always nice to see racists get their comeuppance but I don’t get any joy out of watching that. There’s always something low about sucker-punching someone and, aside from anything else, it could have killed the guy.

On the plus side, the other video of the twat being racist includes him stating his name and he’s now all over the Internet. That’ll hurt him much more and for longer than a sneaky punch in the face.

[lapsedhibee]

On the plus side, the other video of the twat being racist includes him stating his name and he’s now all over the Internet. That’ll hurt him much more and for longer than a sneaky punch in the face.

It would also be nice to think that the naming of his employer (his father's firm, S&S Steel Fixing) would lead to a downturn in their business, but of course in Johnson and Farage's England an upturn might just as easily ensue.

[Bristolhibby]

It’s always nice to see racists get their comeuppance but I don’t get any joy out of watching that. There’s always something low about sucker-punching someone and, aside from anything else, it could have killed the guy.

On the plus side, the other video of the twat being racist includes him stating his name and he’s now all over the Internet. That’ll hurt him much more and for longer than a sneaky punch in the face.

I get the point, personally think he was under prepared.

Gave it the Billy big balls, clearly something was in the off. He was abusing those lads for about 4 minutes before they tw@ed him. Mores fool him.

My copper mate was telling me about a guy paralysed from a sucker punch.

The liberal in me is aghast at the violence, but the realist in me thinks that this kind of racist behaviour and the behaviours that it emboldens has to be crushed, given no chance to take hold.

J

[silverhibee]

May I ask if you think that a black man carrying an AR-15 would have been allowed to walk through those police lines?

There was a video circulating with a group before the shooting, the young lad and his mum were in it, they were chatting with a few black guys who were armed to the teeth, they were telling some protesters that if they started looting they would be put down, the protesters said they were only wanting to have a go at the police and one of the black guys says no problem lets go, just trying to say there was a lot of armed people on the streets that night, black and white people but none were shot by the police.

And why has the young lads mum not been charged with allowing her son to have that rifle, she must have travelled with him, she was dressed in khaki camouflage and armed to the teeth as well.

[Rocky]

There was a video circulating with a group before the shooting, the young lad and his mum were in it, they were chatting with a few black guys who were armed to the teeth, they were telling some protesters that if they started looting they would be put down, the protesters said they were only wanting to have a go at the police and one of the black guys says no problem lets go, just trying to say there was a lot of armed people on the streets that night, black and white people but none were shot by the police.

And why has the young lads mum not been charged with allowing her son to have that rifle, she must have travelled with him, she was dressed in khaki camouflage and armed to the teeth as well.

By "young lad" do you mean the killer?

[silverhibee]

By "young lad" do you mean the killer?

Yeah.

[lord bunberry]

Yeah.
What sort of mother takes her son to a demonstration armed with an assault rifle? She should be jailed as well.

[EAZY-ME]

I saw a news report from Washington where a senator and his wife were coming back from a meeting and were almost attacked by protesters. Luckily they had a police escort or would have been in serious trouble. He was on the news claiming that most of these protesters are being paid to be there and are also being put up in hotels. No idea if true but one thing that strikes me is that there are pallets of bricks being left on street corners. These are brand new bricks not just a pile of rubble

[Moulin Yarns]

I saw a news report from Washington where a senator and his wife were coming back from a meeting and were almost attacked by protesters. Luckily they had a police escort or would have been in serious trouble. He was on the news claiming that most of these protesters are being paid to be there and are also being put up in hotels. No idea if true but one thing that strikes me is that there are pallets of bricks being left on street corners. These are brand new bricks not just a pile of rubble

Link so we all don't need to hunt for it?

[AT8]

Link so we all don't need to hunt for it?

https://reason.com/2020/08/28/rand-paul-breonna-taylor-rnc-protesters-say-her-name/

Absolute effing morons, the lot of them.

[-Jonesy-]

https://reason.com/2020/08/28/rand-paul-breonna-taylor-rnc-protesters-say-her-name/

Absolute effing morons, the lot of them.

Yet still the police who murdered Breonna Taylor walk free

[AT8]

Yet still the police who murdered Breonna Taylor walk free

So that makes it ok for the senator who authored the "Justice For Breonna Taylor" bill to be attacked?

[Keith_M]

Yet still the police who murdered Breonna Taylor walk free


What an idiotic comment. Did you even read the article?


:confused:

[easty]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GregoryMcKelvey/status/1299800483108798464?s=08

There’s absolutely no need for the flying kick thing here. Not at any time, but especially just now, when everything is being videoed by someone.

[neil7908]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GregoryMcKelvey/status/1299800483108798464?s=08

There’s absolutely no need for the flying kick thing here. Not at any time, but especially just now, when everything is being videoed by someone.

I'm sure it's just one bad apple 🙄

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm sure it's just one bad apple 🙄

There'll be an innocent explanation for it.

[neil7908]

There'll be an innocent explanation for it.

I'm interested to see what some posters say here. We are only seeing a video of part of the incident but it's clear this individual is cooperating. What possible reason would there be to kick him in the back?

We've been told time and again that if you do what you're told by the police you'll be fine. That kick could easy have resulted in a him falling and hitting his head, especially as he'd just been tasered.

It's also no surprise that no serious action appears to have been taken against the officer.

[IvanSproule]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GregoryMcKelvey/status/1299800483108798464?s=08

There’s absolutely no need for the flying kick thing here. Not at any time, but especially just now, when everything is being videoed by someone.

What in the hell is he doing? I'd love to see the training maual that has a flying kick to the kidneys in it.
Another case where mandatory body cams would no doubt change a cops behaviour.

[Rocky]

I'm interested to see what some posters say here. We are only seeing a video of part of the incident but it's clear this individual is cooperating. What possible reason would there be to kick him in the back?

We've been told time and again that if you do what you're told by the police you'll be fine. That kick could easy have resulted in a him falling and hitting his head, especially as he'd just been tasered.

It's also no surprise that no serious action appears to have been taken against the officer.
It's clearly not indicative of a pattern of behaviour because black on black crime / illegals / statistics / second amendment / blah.

Neither is this:

https://twitter.com/hakeemnpc/status/1299380742632484866?s=19

[MKHIBEE]

So that makes it ok for the senator who authored the "Justice For Breonna Taylor" bill to be attacked?
He wasn’t attacked

[easty]

I'm interested to see what some posters say here. We are only seeing a video of part of the incident but it's clear this individual is cooperating. What possible reason would there be to kick him in the back?

We've been told time and again that if you do what you're told by the police you'll be fine. That kick could easy have resulted in a him falling and hitting his head, especially as he'd just been tasered.

It's also no surprise that no serious action appears to have been taken against the officer.

Can’t posters be allowed to judge individual situations individually? Can’t someone think this one is clearly unnecessary, but disagree with you on another situation?

[neil7908]

Can’t posters be allowed to judge individual situations individually? Can’t someone think this one is clearly unnecessary, but disagree with you on another situation?

Of course they can. But my comment above is in response to comments that state unequivocally the police are not racist, comply and you'll be OK etc.

Each situation should be judged on its own merits but that can mask wider issues and be explained as one bad apple, no systemic problems etc. BLMs point would be these aren't just individual incidents, they are patterns of institutional racism by US police.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://reason.com/2020/08/28/rand-paul-breonna-taylor-rnc-protesters-say-her-name/

Absolute effing morons, the lot of them.

https://mobile-reuters-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN25O0LW?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15987788362350&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2 Fus-usa-washington-paul-idUSKBN25O0LW

Good to get a bit of balance now and then.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yet still the police who murdered Breonna Taylor walk free

https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/25/us/breonna-taylor-case-justice/index.html?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15987791478380&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F08%2F2 5%2Fus%2Fbreonna-taylor-case-justice%2Findex.html

Doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon.

[Hibrandenburg]

What I don't understand about the deniers, condoners and those who are simply in denial about police brutality against black people and institutional racism is:

There's a whole race of people with very few exceptions who are telling you in no uncertain terms that they are subject to discrimination and police brutality. We see evidence of it on a weekly basis on our TV/Computer/smartphone screens but they are actually living it on a day to day basis. Are all of them, men, women and children, old and young, well educated and poorly educated, rich and poor, Democrats and Republicans, criminal and law abiding, are all these humans, millions of them mistaken? Are they all just being over sensitive? Lying? Exaggerating? Playing the victim card? Seeking advantages? Or are you just in denial?

[-Jonesy-]

What an idiotic comment. Did you even read the article?


:confused:

Did read the article From right wing neo libertarian hate magazine Reason.com? Yes I did.

Is my comment idiotic because it’s completely true and that upsets you?

[easty]

What I don't understand about the deniers, condoners and those who are simply in denial about police brutality against black people and institutional racism is:

There's a whole race of people with very few exceptions who are telling you in no uncertain terms that they are subject to discrimination and police brutality. We see evidence of it on a weekly basis on our TV/Computer/smartphone screens but they are actually living it on a day to day basis. Are all of them, men, women and children, old and young, well educated and poorly educated, rich and poor, Democrats and Republicans, criminal and law abiding, are all these humans, millions of them mistaken? Are they all just being over sensitive? Lying? Exaggerating? Playing the victim card? Seeking advantages? Or are you just in denial?

Sanctimonious much?

[Hibrandenburg]

Sanctimonious much?

So what reason do you have for denying there's a problem with institutional racism and police brutality against black people in the US and other western nations?

[hibsbollah]

What I don't understand about the deniers, condoners and those who are simply in denial about police brutality against black people and institutional racism is:

There's a whole race of people with very few exceptions who are telling you in no uncertain terms that they are subject to discrimination and police brutality. We see evidence of it on a weekly basis on our TV/Computer/smartphone screens but they are actually living it on a day to day basis. Are all of them, men, women and children, old and young, well educated and poorly educated, rich and poor, Democrats and Republicans, criminal and law abiding, are all these humans, millions of them mistaken? Are they all just being over sensitive? Lying? Exaggerating? Playing the victim card? Seeking advantages? Or are you just in denial?

:agree: These are the questions I’d like the deniers and condoners to answer too. Why ARE black people complaining of all this racism? Is it a kind of collective delusion? Is it all liberal media fueled? Do they simply not notice all the white Trayvon Martins/Breona Taylor’s/George Floyd who are being killed by police in the same circumstances because they are unreported? And what explains the historical commonality of all this? That right from the beginning of the 20th century, from Jim Crow/Mississippi Burning and through to now, the same pattern of complaints of harassment and murder (and accompanied violent white backlash when some civil rights measures have been introduced). What’s the explanation?

[easty]

So what reason do you have for denying there's a problem with institutional racism and police brutality against black people in the US and other western nations?

Did I say there’s absolutely no problem?

Some police are racist, some people who aren’t police are racist. Some police who are racist use their position to the detriment of black people. Some police who are racist hide it away, probably.

Not every policeman in America is racist and not every incident that involves a police officer killing/harming a black person is a racially motivated attack.

I’d far prefer to deal with individual incidents, depending on what happened, than scream racism every time.

No, I’m not black so I don’t know what it’s like to be black. I do have some experience of being a human though, and I know that you can’t group a huge bunch of people together (the American police) and say they’re all racist, just because there are some who are.

I also don’t think that comments like the ones you make help matters. You don’t know better, you just think differently.

[-Jonesy-]

Did I say there’s absolutely no problem?

Some police are racist, some people who aren’t police are racist. Some police who are racist use their position to the detriment of black people. Some police who are racist hide it away, probably.

Not every policeman in America is racist and not every incident that involves a police officer killing/harming a black person is a racially motivated attack.

I’d far prefer to deal with individual incidents, depending on what happened, than scream racism every time.

No, I’m not black so I don’t know what it’s like to be black. I do have some experience of being a human though, and I know that you can’t group a huge bunch of people together (the American police) and say they’re all racist, just because there are some who are.

I also don’t think that comments like the ones you make help matters. You don’t know better, you just think differently.

So are you saying there’s a problem but it’s not as bad as it’s been made out to be the last 6 months?

[Hibrandenburg]

Did I say there’s absolutely no problem?

Some police are racist, some people who aren’t police are racist. Some police who are racist use their position to the detriment of black people. Some police who are racist hide it away, probably.

Not every policeman in America is racist and not every incident that involves a police officer killing/harming a black person is a racially motivated attack.

I’d far prefer to deal with individual incidents, depending on what happened, than scream racism every time.

No, I’m not black so I don’t know what it’s like to be black. I do have some experience of being a human though, and I know that you can’t group a huge bunch of people together (the American police) and say they’re all racist, just because there are some who are.

I also don’t think that comments like the ones you make help matters. You don’t know better, you just think differently.

Great, so we are in agreement that there is institutionalised racism in western society. Enough so that millions of black people are trying to make a stand against it. That doesn't make my post just my opinion, I'm not black so like you I don't know what it's like to be black, but I can listen to the millions of black voices that are telling us there is a problem and that enough is enough. I believe them, I might not live it every day but I see enough corroborating evidence that says they're right.

[easty]

So are you saying there’s a problem but it’s not as bad as it’s been made out to be the last 6 months?

It’s being made out that “the police” are racist. “The police” implies all the police, and that’s just not the case.

So, to answer you loaded question...no, it’s not as bad as it’s been made out.

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s being made out that “the police” are racist. “The police” implies all the police, and that’s just not the case.

So, to answer you loaded question...no, it’s not as bad as it’s been made out.

So why are millions of black people convinced there is a serious problem? You're welcome to use one of my previously mentioned answers in my sanctimonious post, one of the excellent ones given by hibsbollah or use your own.

[SHODAN]

I'm interested to see what some posters say here. We are only seeing a video of part of the incident but it's clear this individual is cooperating. What possible reason would there be to kick him in the back?

We've been told time and again that if you do what you're told by the police you'll be fine. That kick could easy have resulted in a him falling and hitting his head, especially as he'd just been tasered.

It's also no surprise that no serious action appears to have been taken against the officer.

There'll be an army of people as we speak desperately checking to see if this guy has a criminal record, which will somehow "justify" a roundhouse kick when he has his hands up.

[easty]

So why are millions of black people convinced there is a serious problem? You're welcome to use one of my previously mentioned answers in my sanctimonious post, one of the excellent ones given by hibsbollah or use your own.

Because millions of people say “the police” are racist, all the police, then it must be true.

Well, that’s me told.

[hibee-boys]

Is the US police racist? No, are there individuals within the police racist, clearly there is. Are all african americans a threat to the police? No, are there individuals who are, yes.

If I was a black american, and I was pulled over/questioned or had any interaction with the poluce, I'd comply with their requests and go on my way. Yes i'd be aggreaved if I was being unfairly targeted but we can clearly see what the worst case outcome can be, why take the risk?

It's maybe a too simplistic view but as a parent that would be my advice to my children. From what i have seen i've not seen any american's, of any ethnic origin, being murdered going about there daily business or when fully complying with police instructions.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GregoryMcKelvey/status/1299800483108798464?s=08

There’s absolutely no need for the flying kick thing here. Not at any time, but especially just now, when everything is being videoed by someone.

https://youtu.be/i4z5B29fkgA

It turns out that the man assaulted had no warrant out for his arrest and had no criminal record. The police said "he looked like someone else"

So there you have it. All black men look alike.

[easty]

Is the US police racist? No, are there individuals within the police racist, clearly there is. Are all african americans a threat to the police? No, are there individuals who are, yes.

If I was a black american, and I was pulled over/questioned or had any interaction with the poluce, I'd comply with their requests and go on my way. Yes i'd be aggreaved if I was being unfairly targeted but we can clearly see what the worst case outcome can be, why take the risk?

It's maybe a too simplistic view but as a parent that would be my advice to my children. From what i have seen i've not seen any american's, of any ethnic origin, being murdered going about there daily business or when fully complying with police instructions.

I agree with you, but you should be prepared to be told you’re wrong. You’re not allowed to be a realist, you have to be all or nothing. Either you agree that the police are racist, or you’re a BLM denier, well on the Holy Ground that’s how it works. I think.

[MKHIBEE]

Did I say there’s absolutely no problem?

Some police are racist, some people who aren’t police are racist. Some police who are racist use their position to the detriment of black people. Some police who are racist hide it away, probably.

Not every policeman in America is racist and not every incident that involves a police officer killing/harming a black person is a racially motivated attack.

I’d far prefer to deal with individual incidents, depending on what happened, than scream racism every time.

No, I’m not black so I don’t know what it’s like to be black. I do have some experience of being a human though, and I know that you can’t group a huge bunch of people together (the American police) and say they’re all racist, just because there are some who are.

I also don’t think that comments like the ones you make help matters. You don’t know better, you just think differently.

Which specific individual incidents have you come across that you would put into the “ could be racially motivated”? bracket.?

[hibsbollah]

I agree with you, but you should be prepared to be told you’re wrong. You’re not allowed to be a realist, you have to be all or nothing. Either you agree that the police are racist, or you’re a BLM denier, well on the Holy Ground that’s how it works. I think.

No, you’ve been asked to expand on your views. Polite debate.

[hibee-boys]

I agree with you, but you should be prepared to be told you’re wrong. You’re not allowed to be a realist, you have to be all or nothing. Either you agree that the police are racist, or you’re a BLM denier, well on the Holy Ground that’s how it works. I think.

Probably why i've stayed clear of the Holy Ground, seems to be that with all emotive subjects, whether it is police conduct, racism, politics, Covid 19 etc, it's fashionable to take one of 2 extreme views.

[Hibrandenburg]

Because millions of people say “the police” are racist, all the police, then it must be true.

Well, that’s me told.

I've yet to see anyone say that "all the police are racist", except for those who are trying to deflect from the fact that there's a racism problem within the police/society.

[makaveli1875]

I've yet to see anyone say that "all the police are racist", except for those who are trying to deflect from the fact that there's a racism problem within the police/society.

This is exactly it the police are society, some will be racist, some will be wife beaters some will be up to no good and some we assume are good people.

[easty]

I've yet to see anyone say that "all the police are racist", except for those who are trying to deflect from the fact that there's a racism problem within the police/society.

Setting off from a default of an incident being racially motivated, because it’s the police, does actually imply that all police are racist. So no, it’s not me trying to deflect, it’s me saying not all the incidents are racially motivated.

[easty]

No, you’ve been asked to expand on your views. Polite debate.

I disagree. I think referring to anyone who disagrees with you as deniers and condoners isn’t exactly polite debate.

My views though, I’ve shared.

[easty]

Which specific individual incidents have you come across that you would put into the “ could be racially motivated”? bracket.?

Any of them “could be” racially motivated. I’d just rather it was looked into and investigated, before being labelled as a racist attack.

[bigwheel]

I agree with you, but you should be prepared to be told you’re wrong. You’re not allowed to be a realist, you have to be all or nothing. Either you agree that the police are racist, or you’re a BLM denier, well on the Holy Ground that’s how it works. I think.

I’ve genuinely never seen a post on here that suggests every policeman/woman is racist, nor have I seen anything that suggests that police wake up in the morning aiming to shoot or harm people of colour . I think everyone realises it is much more complex and multi dimensional problem than that.

Even deep reform of the policing system won’t solve the inequalities that still exists across today’s society. It’s not even the place where the change needs to start.

The debates about individual instances in this thread seem to have overtaken the real cause and concerns of BLM and other groups fighting for change. The heart of the issue we should be grappling with is how do we build a healthy society which is safe for people of all race, religions, gender and sexuality to live in - how do we create a society which is a place where mutual respect is the dominant value . There are some institutions which need major change to help that, policing and the criminal justice system are two of those. But that should be down the road, as part of a strategy to build a better society, not seen as a solution in itself .

[neil7908]

Is the US police racist? No, are there individuals within the police racist, clearly there is. Are all african americans a threat to the police? No, are there individuals who are, yes.

If I was a black american, and I was pulled over/questioned or had any interaction with the poluce, I'd comply with their requests and go on my way. Yes i'd be aggreaved if I was being unfairly targeted but we can clearly see what the worst case outcome can be, why take the risk?

It's maybe a too simplistic view but as a parent that would be my advice to my children. From what i have seen i've not seen any american's, of any ethnic origin, being murdered going about there daily business or when fully complying with police instructions.

I'm really surprised you are posting this in light of the video above showing the cop kicking the guy in the back. What do you think the "suspect" has done wrong in that situation? They appeared to comply, had their hands up and were still assaulted.

Surely all of these individual incidents add up to something more?

There seems to be a misconception here about what racism means in the context of the police. I don't think any serious BLM supporter thinks every single US cop is racist (indeed, a fair few will be non white). But the system that trains them, arms them, gives them orders and protects them from serious repercussions if they do something wrong is inherently prejudiced against black people. And if you are determined to treat each individual incident as being a totally separate matter then of course you will never see a pattern and ever believe there are fundamental problems, no matter now many cases there are.

[hibsbollah]

I disagree. I think referring to anyone who disagrees with you as deniers and condoners isn’t exactly polite debate.

My views though, I’ve shared.

I didn’t say ‘anyone who disagrees with me’ is a denier and condoner’, did I?
If you don’t want to answer my question about what is actually motivating BLM, that’s OK.

[-Jonesy-]

From what i have seen i've not seen any american's, of any ethnic origin, being murdered going about there daily business or when fully complying with police instructions.

Breonna Taylor, Tamir Rice, Atatiana Jefferson, Stephon Clark, Philando Castile, Botham Jean

Do you live your life with your eyes sealed shut??

[IvanSproule]

What I don't understand about the deniers, condoners and those who are simply in denial about police brutality against black people and institutional racism is:

There's a whole race of people with very few exceptions who are telling you in no uncertain terms that they are subject to discrimination and police brutality. We see evidence of it on a weekly basis on our TV/Computer/smartphone screens but they are actually living it on a day to day basis. Are all of them, men, women and children, old and young, well educated and poorly educated, rich and poor, Democrats and Republicans, criminal and law abiding, are all these humans, millions of them mistaken? Are they all just being over sensitive? Lying? Exaggerating? Playing the victim card? Seeking advantages? Or are you just in denial?

I think you'll struggle to find anyone on here that denies race problems or condones police brutality. I would also caution you not to categorise black people into a form of group think, a recent Pew poll shows 71% of black americans strongly supported the message of BLM. A strong majority? Yes, but "a whole race of people with very few exceptions" no. Many prominent black academics are highly critical of the goals and methods of the movement, look at Thomas Chatterton Williams, Chloe Valdary, Coleman Hughes, John McWhorter etc.

I think the only disagreement you will find, from me at least, is to what extent racism is enscribed "institutionally" and also on the methods and tactics that should be deployed to address racial injustices.

[MKHIBEE]

Any of them “could be” raci
ally motivated. I’d just rather it was looked into and investigated, before being labelled as a racist attack.

Do you think that any of killings that have been looked into and investigated had racial undertones?

[easty]

Do you think that any of killings that have been looked into and investigated had racial undertones?

I don’t know. They could. All of them could.

What do you think?

[easty]

I didn’t say ‘anyone who disagrees with me’ is a denier and condoner’, did I?
If you don’t want to answer my question about what is actually motivating BLM, that’s OK.

You wanted the people who don’t agree with you, who you referred to as deniers and condoners, to give an explanation of what’s going on.

What question about the motivation of BLM are you asking?

[hibsbollah]

You wanted the people who don’t agree with you, who you referred to as deniers and condoners, to give an explanation of what’s going on.

What question about the motivation of BLM are you asking?

You’ve already lifted a quote from it, post #531.

[hibee-boys]

I'm really surprised you are posting this in light of the video above showing the cop kicking the guy in the back. What do you think the "suspect" has done wrong in that situation? They appeared to comply, had their hands up and were still assaulted.

Surely all of these individual incidents add up to something more?

There seems to be a misconception here about what racism means in the context of the police. I don't think any serious BLM supporter thinks every single US cop is racist (indeed, a fair few will be non white). But the system that trains them, arms them, gives them orders and protects them from serious repercussions if they do something wrong is inherently prejudiced against black people. And if you are determined to treat each individual incident as being a totally separate matter then of course you will never see a pattern and ever believe there are fundamental problems, no matter now many cases there are.

Yes, I was shocked by the video. There are numerous videos online showing, what it seems, excessive police force. Then again, to assume there is a systemic issue we'd need to understand the proportion of these incidents where compared with all police interactions. There will be tens of thousands of these interactions each year but they don't make the news or onto youtube.

One case of police brutality, or un-justified murder, is one too many and hopefully the justice system will deal with these individuals accordingly. Bottom line is that we are human, we make errors in judgement, we make mistakes, therefore, these incidents will continue indefinately. We either put trust in the justice system to deal with them, or use peaceful protest or political change to impact on law, or there will be continuous rioting and greater long term damage.

[-Jonesy-]

Many defenders of Kenosha shooter Kyle Rittenhouse like to play to the fact the two people he killed were convicted criminals, the same people use this as justification for the shooting of Jacob Blake as he was a known felon. It’s interesting to see how this line of argument will hold up now as Rittenhouse’s criminal record is now on the public domain and video has surfaced of him repeatedly sucker punching a teenage girl from behind in a brawl.

[MKHIBEE]

I don’t know. They could. All of them could.

What do you think?

I think you will go to great lengths to avoid saying that some black peoples deaths at the hands of the police are motivated by racist tendencies.

[easty]

I think you will go to great lengths to avoid saying that some black peoples deaths at the hands of the police are motivated by racist tendencies.

No. Not if there’s any kind of evidence.

[McD]

Is the US police racist? No, are there individuals within the police racist, clearly there is. Are all african americans a threat to the police? No, are there individuals who are, yes.

If I was a black american, and I was pulled over/questioned or had any interaction with the poluce, I'd comply with their requests and go on my way. Yes i'd be aggreaved if I was being unfairly targeted but we can clearly see what the worst case outcome can be, why take the risk?

It's maybe a too simplistic view but as a parent that would be my advice to my children. From what i have seen i've not seen any american's, of any ethnic origin, being murdered going about there daily business or when fully complying with police instructions.



I think I understand the meaning and sentiment behind what you’ve said here, but by doing what you’ve suggested, you would be asking your children, and yourself, to accept being unfairly treated as second class citizens, based completely on their race. And even then, we’ve seen that acting in that way still doesn’t keep you safe.

where does that acceptance stop? You’ve mentioned the police, what about job opportunities? Which school your children can attend? What about being able to live in certain areas?


as I said, I think I get the sentiment behind what you’ve said, and this isn’t me having a go. Shouldn’t everyone, every single person, be able to expect consistent behaviour from the police/anyone regardless of race/skin colour/ethnicity?

[IvanSproule]

I think I understand the meaning and sentiment behind what you’ve said here, but by doing what you’ve suggested, you would be asking your children, and yourself, to accept being unfairly treated as second class citizens, based completely on their race. And even then, we’ve seen that acting in that way still doesn’t keep you safe.

where does that acceptance stop? You’ve mentioned the police, what about job opportunities? Which school your children can attend? What about being able to live in certain areas?


as I said, I think I get the sentiment behind what you’ve said, and this isn’t me having a go. Shouldn’t everyone, every single person, be able to expect consistent behaviour from the police/anyone regardless of race/skin colour/ethnicity?

Absolutely nobody should have to accept that. And if anyone feels that way they should use their vote, their voice and their right to protest in order to rail against that injustice.

But at the point of arrest? You have no say in the matter. I feel if there was prominent messaging from groups like BLM that nobody should resist arrest the result would be that black people that would otherwise have been unlawfully killed would still be alive, which is what the movement is meant to be about.

[neil7908]

Absolutely nobody should have to accept that. And if anyone feels that way they should use their vote, their voice and their right to protest in order to rail against that injustice.

But at the point of arrest? You have no say in the matter. I feel if there was prominent messaging from groups like BLM that nobody should resist arrest the result would be that black people that would otherwise have been unlawfully killed would still be alive, which is what the movement is meant to be about.

The problem here is that people don't think rationally in these situations. You of course shouldn't resist arrest, its not going to help the situation, whatever the reasons you've been stopped. But when you are surrounded by armed police, it's all adrenaline.

But aren't we letting cops off the hook? Why are they given a free pass here when black people are having to keep iron discipline, even in cases of wrongful arrest?

And what does this solution do to stop structural issues in the police? What does messages of not resisting arrest matter to Breonna Taylors family or the gentleman who was kicked in the back as we've further up this thread?

[Hibrandenburg]

I think you'll struggle to find anyone on here that denies race problems or condones police brutality. I would also caution you not to categorise black people into a form of group think, a recent Pew poll shows 71% of black americans strongly supported the message of BLM. A strong majority? Yes, but "a whole race of people with very few exceptions" no. Many prominent black academics are highly critical of the goals and methods of the movement, look at Thomas Chatterton Williams, Chloe Valdary, Coleman Hughes, John McWhorter etc.

I think the only disagreement you will find, from me at least, is to what extent racism is enscribed "institutionally" and also on the methods and tactics that should be deployed to address racial injustices.

I was careful not to mention BLM because even amongst the black community they have their critics. If 71% strongly support BLM then that doesn't mean the other 29% think there is no inequality within society or racism within the police. The fact that many US police forces have their roots in the slave trade industry and were formed to ensure that slaves remained slaves, ensures that racism will remain institutionalized in many forces, it's part of their DNA.

[MKHIBEE]

No. Not if there’s any kind of evidence.
ok, fair enough

[WeeRussell]

Sanctimonious much?

I thought the post you quoted was spot-on. The poster didn’t name anyone individually or even indicate that he was referring to anybody on hibs.net

Perfectly reasonable questions to ask (and if answered properly by anyone it applies to, would be interesting). Curious as to why you would react like that?

[WeeRussell]

I saw a news report from Washington where a senator and his wife were coming back from a meeting and were almost attacked by protesters. Luckily they had a police escort or would have been in serious trouble. He was on the news claiming that most of these protesters are being paid to be there and are also being put up in hotels. No idea if true but one thing that strikes me is that there are pallets of bricks being left on street corners. These are brand new bricks not just a pile of rubble

If it’s the one I seen on Twitter (that Farage used as an endorsement for voting trump!) then I don’t get the “almost attacked” part. Seemed to me all involved were very careful to ensure they were only using words (albeit strong ones) and insisting he answered their question.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not condoning harassing behaviour like that, just thought it was strange for a report to judge as “almost attacked”.

[Berwickhibby]

I was careful not to mention BLM because even amongst the black community they have their critics. If 71% strongly support BLM then that doesn't mean the other 29% think there is no inequality within society or racism within the police. The fact that many US police forces have their roots in the slave trade industry and were formed to ensure that slaves remained slaves, ensures that racism will remain institutionalized in many forces, it's part of their DNA.

Can you show a link where racism is a gene or chromosome within the DNA structure.... :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Can you show a link where racism is a gene or chromosome within the DNA structure.... :greengrin

No, that would be racist. :wink:

[neil7908]

Not directly linked to BLM but I think this is a really interesting article that touches on many of the issues discussed in this thread on violence, racism and the lack of accountability in modern police forces.

However, lots of stuff on the lack of training, horrendous stress, depression and suicide etc.

[Rocky]

Not directly linked to BLM but I think this is a really interesting article that touches on many of the issues discussed in this thread on violence, racism and the lack of accountability in modern police forces.

However, lots of stuff on the lack of training, horrendous stress, depression and suicide etc.
Did you forget to add link?

[Future17]

If it’s the one I seen on Twitter (that Farage used as an endorsement for voting trump!) then I don’t get the “almost attacked” part. Seemed to me all involved were very careful to ensure they were only using words (albeit strong ones) and insisting he answered their question.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not condoning harassing behaviour like that, just thought it was strange for a report to judge as “almost attacked”.

I bought a lottery ticket recently; I was almost a millionaire. :greengrin

[neil7908]

Did you forget to add link?

Doh!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/french-reporter-who-joined-police-exposes-racism-and-violence-valentin-gendrot

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/54034705/car-drives-into-crowd-of-black-lives-matter-protesters-in-times-square

More terror attacks on BLM protesters as a car is deliberately driven into the crowd in Times Square, NYC.

[I'm_cabbaged]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/54034705/car-drives-into-crowd-of-black-lives-matter-protesters-in-times-square

More terror attacks on BLM protesters as a car is deliberately driven into the crowd in Times Square, NYC.

You see that after every match at ER.

[hibsbollah]

[QUOTE=Moulin Yarns;6291610]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/54034705/car-drives-into-crowd-of-black-lives-matter-protesters-in-times-square

More terror attacks on BLM protesters as a car is deliberately driven into the crowd in Times Square, NYC.[/https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2020/06/15/cars-ramming-protests/%3foutputType=amp

Washington Post has investigated this, 19 instances of cars being deliberately driven into BLM protestors since the George Floyd death. BLM protestors killed in Seattle this way, probably copycat attacks after Heather Heyer was killed in this way in Charlottesville in 2017 in the ‘many fine people on that march’ killing.

[Hibrandenburg]

[QUOTE=Moulin Yarns;6291610]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/54034705/car-drives-into-crowd-of-black-lives-matter-protesters-in-times-square

More terror attacks on BLM protesters as a car is deliberately driven into the crowd in Times Square, NYC.[/https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2020/06/15/cars-ramming-protests/%3foutputType=amp

Washington Post has investigated this, 19 instances of cars being deliberately driven into BLM protestors since the George Floyd death. BLM protestors killed in Seattle this way, probably copycat attacks after Heather Heyer was killed in this way in Charlottesville in 2017 in the ‘many fine people on that march’ killing.

Are they using cars so they can stick to the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.

[hibsbollah]

https://youtu.be/Re8jUhGOZu4

Louisville Kentucky.

[Kato]

https://youtu.be/Re8jUhGOZu4

Louisville Kentucky.I stopped watching when the self-titled "Angry Vikings" came on. Utter twats.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Mon Dieu4]

I stopped watching when the self-titled "Angry Vikings" came on. Utter twats.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Angry viking needs to calm down on the roids

[Rocky]

Thought provoking article. I personally think it overplays its hand in the conclusion but interesting nonetheless.

https://prospect.org/api/amp/justice/police-and-racist-vigilantes-even-worse-than-you-think/

[hibsbollah]

Angry viking needs to calm down on the roids

Chilled out Viking as a name wouldn’t work in the same way :greengrin
Grandmaster Js ‘ not ****ing around coalition’ militia looked no less scary though, in the interest of balance.

[IvanSproule]

https://youtu.be/Re8jUhGOZu4

Louisville Kentucky.

That is f#ckin bonkers.


I stopped watching when the self-titled "Angry Vikings" came on. Utter twats.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Keep watching mate it's an important bit of footage. Thanks for posting HB.

[Jones28]

https://youtu.be/Re8jUhGOZu4

Louisville Kentucky.

Wow.

[lapsedhibee]

https://youtu.be/Re8jUhGOZu4

Louisville Kentucky.

Completely fake report, because the reporter isn't American. :agree:

[Bristolhibby]

https://youtu.be/Re8jUhGOZu4

Louisville Kentucky.

Jesus Christ! Scary times.

The thing I find incredible is none of those tooled up whack jobs were breaking the law. It’s an armed insurrection!

J

[silverhibee]

Jesus Christ! Scary times.

The thing I find incredible is none of those tooled up whack jobs were breaking the law. It’s an armed insurrection!

J

And when the police do turn up they are tooled up with wooden batons to go against a small army.

[Pretty Boy]

I don't know if anyone watched Louis Theroux last weekend. The 1st part of him looking back retrospectively at his career.

One of the people he spoke to was a guy who had been a survivalist, who had lived off grid in a community of like minded souls. They fundemantally distrusted the federal government and stated they were willing to die to protect, among other things, their 2nd amendment rights. He first met the guy whilst Clinton was President. The same guy no longer lived in the community but still held many of the same views. He was asked about Trumps presidency and was positively glowing in his assessment and declared Trump was his kind of president.

When you look at videos like the above, it's scary. Trump did this. He legitimised these people. This isn't people who have been dicked over by successive US administrations, that's a totally different grievance. This is a group of armed and dangerous nutjobs who are being actively encouraged by the leader of their country.

[Berwickhibby]

BLM supporters shouting “We hope they die ! “ outside the hospital where the 2 Californian deputies are receiving emergency life saving surgery. Imho those chanting this are ****

[Hibrandenburg]

BLM supporters shouting “We hope they die ! “ outside the hospital where the 2 Californian deputies are receiving emergency life saving surgery. Imho those chanting this are ****

Yep, that's pretty ****my, just as ****my as those shouting all lives matter everytime a black man actually dies at the hands of the police in unjustifiable shootings, but slightly less ****my than actually killing black men.

[Berwickhibby]

Yep, that's pretty ****my, just as ****my as those shouting all lives matter everytime a black man actually dies at the hands of the police in unjustifiable shootings, but slightly less ****my than actually killing black men.

Do you actually believe the utter drivel you spout...

[hibsbollah]

Do you actually believe the utter drivel you spout...

Ooft thats a bit rude.

I agree with him. On a sliding scale of being evil, shouting 'i wish he dies' without justification is clearly less evil than, like, actually killing someone without justification. Don't you agree?

[Berwickhibby]

Ooft thats a bit rude.

I agree with him. On a sliding scale of being evil, shouting 'i wish he dies' without justification is clearly less evil than, like, actually killing someone without justification. Don't you agree?

And you spout as much drivel as him

[hibsbollah]

And you spout as much drivel as him

OK. Can you elaborate on that?

[Hibrandenburg]

OK. Can you elaborate on that?

I think it translates as "I disagree with your opinion old chap".

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you actually believe the utter drivel you spout...

I'm agreeing with you.

[Moulin Yarns]

BLM supporters shouting “We hope they die ! “ outside the hospital where the 2 Californian deputies are receiving emergency life saving surgery. Imho those chanting this are ****

Where is it reported that the protesters outside the hospital are BLM supporters?

[Berwickhibby]

Where is it reported that the protesters outside the hospital are BLM supporters?

From today's Mail on Sunday ....... Shameful footage said to have been taken outside St. Francis Medical Center in Lynwood on Saturday night shows as one protester yells: 'I want to deliver a message to the family of the pigs, I hope they f***ing die.' The protesters have been connected to the Black Lives Matter movement on Twitter but that has not been officially confirmed.

[Moulin Yarns]

From today's Mail on Sunday ....... Shameful footage said to have been taken outside St. Francis Medical Center in Lynwood on Saturday night shows as one protester yells: 'I want to deliver a message to the family of the pigs, I hope they f***ing die.' The protesters have been connected to the Black Lives Matter movement on Twitter but that has not been officially confirmed.




OK, so no evidence, just supposition.

Maybe if the police in the US were less quick to shoot first and not bother with the questions they would be less at risk of retaliation?

[AT8]

Yep, that's pretty ****my, just as ****my as those shouting all lives matter everytime a black man actually dies at the hands of the police in unjustifiable shootings, but slightly less ****my than actually killing black men.

You do realize that these two officers were the victims of a text book assassination attempt whereas 99.9% of blacks shot by Police were engaging in criminal activity and/or resisting arrest.

I'm glad to see you say that wishing death to these two officers is ****y behavior but the line of "unjustifiable shootings" is getting tiresome.

[AT8]

OK, so no evidence, just supposition.

Maybe if the police in the US were less quick to shoot first and not bother with the questions they would be less at risk of retaliation?

Evidence right here:- https://www.foxnews.com/us/protesters-hospital-los-angeles-sheriffs-deputies-ambushed

[Moulin Yarns]

Evidence right here:- https://www.foxnews.com/us/protesters-hospital-los-angeles-sheriffs-deputies-ambushed

Where? No mention of any of the protesters outside the hospital being linked to the BLM movement.

[Rocky]

You do realize that these two officers were the victims of a text book assassination attempt whereas 99.9% of blacks shot by Police were engaging in criminal activity and/or resisting arrest.

I'm glad to see you say that wishing death to these two officers is ****y behavior but the line of "unjustifiable shootings" is getting tiresome.

Just to clarify, are you saying you're tired of unjustifiable shootings or just tired of hearing about them?

[silverhibee]

I don't know if anyone watched Louis Theroux last weekend. The 1st part of him looking back retrospectively at his career.

One of the people he spoke to was a guy who had been a survivalist, who had lived off grid in a community of like minded souls. They fundemantally distrusted the federal government and stated they were willing to die to protect, among other things, their 2nd amendment rights. He first met the guy whilst Clinton was President. The same guy no longer lived in the community but still held many of the same views. He was asked about Trumps presidency and was positively glowing in his assessment and declared Trump was his kind of president.

When you look at videos like the above, it's scary. Trump did this. He legitimised these people. This isn't people who have been dicked over by successive US administrations, that's a totally different grievance. This is a group of armed and dangerous nutjobs who are being actively encouraged by the leader of their country.

If Trump gets another 4 years in office then he will need these nut jobs to protect the streets and do the dirty work, can you imagine what it will be like if these 4 officers get found not guilty of the charges relating to the death George Floyd when the trial comes up in March, it will be mayhem.

[stokesmessiah]

If Trump gets another 4 years in office then he will need these nut jobs to protect the streets and do the dirty work, can you imagine what it will be like if these 4 officers get found not guilty of the charges relating to the death George Floyd when the trial comes up in March, it will be mayhem.

It doesn’t really matter what outcome comes of that trial, mayhem is going to happen regardless.

[Berwickhibby]

If Trump gets another 4 years in office then he will need these nut jobs to protect the streets and do the dirty work, can you imagine what it will be like if these 4 officers get found not guilty of the charges relating to the death George Floyd when the trial comes up in March, it will be mayhem.

Get ready for mayhem, as what I have read and seen of the evidence, especially the autopsy reports 3 of the officers will get found not guilty. Chauvet is another story... he will be found guilty...I imagine it will be manslaughter.... remember murder needs to be premeditated and I doubt that would be proved.

[lapsedhibee]

From today's Mail on Sunday ....... Shameful footage said to have been taken outside St. Francis Medical Center in Lynwood on Saturday night shows as one protester yells: 'I want to deliver a message to the family of the pigs, I hope they f***ing die.' The protesters have been connected to the Black Lives Matter movement on Twitter but that has not been officially confirmed.




Wtf are you reporting something as fact on the basis that someone said it on twitter? :confused:

[Kato]

Wtf are you reporting something as fact on the basis that someone said it on twitter? :confused:

Yes, but it's in the Mail On Sunday. Don't you trust the Mail On Sunday and head directly to that news outlet if you need to gain some balanced news on the BLM Movement?

[bigwheel]

Yes, but it's in the Mail On Sunday. Don't you trust the Mail On Sunday and head directly to that news outlet if you need to gain some balanced news on the BLM Movement?

[emoji1787]

[Berwickhibby]

Yes, but it's in the Mail On Sunday. Don't you trust the Mail On Sunday and head directly to that news outlet if you need to gain some balanced news on the BLM Movement?

Perhaps because 2 officers were shot sitting in their car, serving, doing their duty...then a bunch of funkwits attend the hospital to protest, stopping ambulances and chanting disgusting abuse.....unbelievable... perhaps this feels closer to me as my colleague David Rathban was shot in the face by that coward Raol Moat whilst sitting in his vehicle... I hope Moat rots in hell!!!!

I hope the shooter gets caught and gets the needle

[lapsedhibee]

Perhaps because 2 officers were shot sitting in their car, serving, doing their duty...then a bunch of funkwits attend the hospital to protest, stopping ambulances and chanting disgusting abuse.....unbelievable... perhaps this feels closer to me as my colleague David Rathban was shot in the face by that coward Raol Moat whilst sitting in his vehicle... I hope Moat rots in hell!!!!

I hope the shooter gets caught and gets the needle

Oh well, in that case I agree with the bloke on twitter.

[Kato]

Perhaps because 2 officers were shot sitting in their car, serving, doing their duty...then a bunch of funkwits attend the hospital to protest, stopping ambulances and chanting disgusting abuse.....unbelievable... perhaps this feels closer to me as my colleague David Rathban was shot in the face by that coward Raol Moat whilst sitting in his vehicle... I hope Moat rots in hell!!!!

I hope the shooter gets caught and gets the needle

This conversation has been going on decades and the above addition to it, although typical, does nothing to bring it to an amicable and beneficial end.

[Berwickhibby]

This conversation has been going on decades and the above addition to it, although typical, does nothing to bring it to an amicable and beneficial end.

Absolutely.....however do you condone the actions of the shooter or the behaviours of the protesters? Do you think this will help?

[bigwheel]

This conversation has been going on decades and the above addition to it, although typical, does nothing to bring it to an amicable and beneficial end.

It’s a powerful point you raise. These threads (myself included at times) spark whataboutery from either viewpoint after each note worthy incident.

The US is broken, with large swathes of the population feeling marginalised and unfairly treated. The rise of the white supremacy voice and the counter reaction from the black and left has accentuated years (decades )of the division and distrust.

We are seeing the same in the UK. All sides of the political divide seem to be be digging deep trenches of their opposition.

None of the leaders seem to be reaching out across the divide to seek to address the root cause and bring populations back together. I wonder who or what will trigger solutions rather than deeper divisions and hurt. Certainly no sign from the current governments in each country .

[Kato]

Absolutely.....however do you condone the actions of the shooter or the behaviours of the protesters?

I don't condone any violence bud, but what do I know? I'm not black, haven't been brought up in that culture and, apart from the reporting of an intrinsically biased media, can only rely on reportage. I haven't read about this incident or seen the behaviour of the protesters from any reliable stance.

So I, like you, actually know ***** ALL about these specific incidents but I also don't allow myself to get all worked up and triggered about it by pathetic publications like The Mail On Sunday.


So whether I condone them or not is neither here or there. It's a sub section of football forum, and if I said I supported them it wouldn't matter and vice versa.


I support the protesters that are protesting legally, as little as that means, and I understand what they are protesting against.

Do you support those who are protesting legally?



Do you think this will help?

Violence, i.e. needles, guns, truncheons, tazers, isn't the answer.

[AT8]

Just to clarify, are you saying you're tired of unjustifiable shootings or just tired of hearing about them?

I'm tired of the shootings being labeled as unjustified. The ladies and gentlemen of law enforcement put their lives on the line to keep those of us who obey the law safe and they have every right to return to their families after a difficult shift. Nine times out of ten, the police are perfectly justified in discharging their weapons when dealing with the absolute dregs of society.

[Kato]

It’s a powerful point you raise. These threads (myself included at times) spark whataboutery from either viewpoint after each note worthy incident.

The US is broken, with large swathes of the population feeling marginalised and unfairly treated. The rise of the white supremacy voice and the counter reaction from the black and left has accentuated years (decades )of the division and distrust.

We are seeing the same in the UK. All sides of the political divide seem to be be digging deep trenches of their opposition.

None of the leaders seem to be reaching out across the divide to seek to address the root cause and bring populations back together. I wonder who or what will trigger solutions rather than deeper divisions and hurt. Certainly no sign from the current governments in each country .


Someone always profits when a programme of divide and rule is being invoked. The fact that the leaders of these countries are not leading to heal the division, but are in fact stoking it, speaks volumes.

[bigwheel]

Someone always profits when a programme of divide and rule is being invoked. The fact that the leaders of these countries are not leading to heal the division, but are in fact stoking it, speaks volumes.

Truth ...

[Berwickhibby]

I don't condone any violence bud, but what do I know? I'm not black, haven't been brought up in that culture and, apart from the reporting of an intrinsically biased media, can only rely on reportage. I haven't read about this incident or seen the behaviour of the protesters from any reliable stance.

So I, like you, actually know ***** ALL about these specific incidents but I also don't allow myself to get all worked up and triggered about it by pathetic publications like The Mail On Sunday.


So whether I condone them or not is neither here or there. It's a sub section of football forum, and if I said I supported them it wouldn't matter and vice versa.


I support the protesters that are protesting legally, as little as that means, and I understand what they are protesting against.

Do you support those who are protesting legally?




Violence, i.e. needles, guns, truncheons, tazers, isn't the answer.

Of course I support legal protests .... most protests are just with a cause. I also believe in the law and order...

[Kato]

Of course I support legal protests .... most protests are just with a cause. I also believe in the law and order...


....but you allow yourself to pay most attention, according to what I've seen on these threads, to the side issues of a minority who aren't legally protesting.

Why is that?

[CropleyWasGod]

BBC News - Edinburgh University renames David Hume Tower over 'racist' views
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54138247

[lapsedhibee]

BBC News - Edinburgh University renames David Hume Tower over 'racist' views
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54138247

What about all the racists who were 40, or called George? :grr: :panic:

[CropleyWasGod]

What about all the racists who were 40, or called George? :grr: :panic:

And the non-binary regular rectangles.

[wpj]

Wee side question, did SPL take the knee over the weekend? I see EPL did. Im a fan by the way and make no apologies for my opinion at all just interested.

[easty]

Wee side question, did SPL take the knee over the weekend? I see EPL did. Im a fan by the way and make no apologies for my opinion at all just interested.

Yes

[Colr]

BBC News - Edinburgh University renames David Hume Tower over 'racist' views
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54138247

I hope Edinburgh University students will be debating and considering Hume’s racism. It’s an interesting subject as is Voltaire’s racist attitudes and worthy of discussion.

[Moulin Yarns]

I still don't see any real evidence that the protesters outside the hospital are representing BLM.

[wpj]

Yes

👍 thanks

[Colr]

Pleased to see that the Packers didn’t take the field for the American Anthem this evening.

Trump will be going ape****.

[Pretty Boy]

BBC News - Edinburgh University renames David Hume Tower over 'racist' views
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54138247

I hope the man who said this has all his honours removed, I believe he has statues and is even on bank notes:

'There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.'

[Moulin Yarns]

Remember the Robertson jam image?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/13/why-im-putting-the-faces-of-black-british-heroes-on-grocery-shelves


A positive way to portray people of colour.

[Hibrandenburg]

I still don't see any real evidence that the protesters outside the hospital are representing BLM.

They're black so obviously associated with BLM in the same way all white people are associated with the KKK.

[Berwickhibby]

They're black so obviously associated with BLM in the same way all white people are associated with the KKK.

Watch the video https://abc7.com/la-deputies-shot-los-angeles-shooting-compton-ambush/6421043/ the first protestors have BLM flags ... I doubt they are there to visit or bring grapes

[Kato]

Watch the video https://abc7.com/la-deputies-shot-los-angeles-shooting-compton-ambush/6421043/ the first protestors have BLM flags ... I doubt they are there to visit or bring grapesSo from your point of view what does that tell us?

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[Berwickhibby]

So from your point of view what does that tell us?

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My point of view is that the shooter and protesters, especially the those blocking the ambulance bays and shouting the abuse about the officers are **** as per my original post

[Rocky]

My point of view is that the shooter and protesters, especially the those blocking the ambulance bays and shouting the abuse about the officers are **** as per my original post

And did you post that on this thread because you think that it in some way nullifies the value of the protests? We hear a lot from the police that we shouldn't let a "few bad eggs" spoil the fine reputation of the others, I just wonder what the point is you're making here and why it's different?

[Berwickhibby]

And did you post that on this thread because you think that it in some way nullifies the value of the protests? We hear a lot from the police that we shouldn't let a "few bad eggs" spoil the fine reputation of the others, I just wonder what the point is you're making here and why it's different?

If you think shooting police officers and protesting at the hospital is acceptable... that’s your opinion.., personally I don’t and actually dilutes what these protests are really about

[Rocky]

If you think shooting police officers and protesting at the hospital is acceptable... that’s your opinion.., personally I don’t and actually dilutes what these protests are really about

Did you reply to the wrong post by accident?

[Kato]

My point of view is that the shooter and protesters, especially the those blocking the ambulance bays and shouting the abuse about the officers are **** as per my original postSo why the need to conflate it with BLM?

If some guy wearing a Hibs scarf attacked someone in the street would that have anything to do with Hibernian FC?

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[hibsbollah]

Pleased to see that the Packers didn’t take the field for the American Anthem this evening.

Trump will be going ape****.

Almost every game had symbolic gestures of varying degrees validating BLM. The NFL has gone from being the preserve of racism deniers to the most public face of the National demand for equality in about 3 months.

[AT8]

From reading the comments on here, I have to assume the news being broadcast in the UK is heavily filtered. Every single day, BLM "protestors" are causing havoc across America and what happened to those two deputy sheriffs is just the start of what's to come.

[Berwickhibby]

So why the need to conflate it with BLM?

If some guy wearing a Hibs scarf attacked someone in the street would that have anything to do with Hibernian FC?

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Really ... so they were just passing the hospital carrying BLM flags and thought they would have a quick protest on the off chance..,

[Rocky]

From reading the comments on here, I have to assume the news being broadcast in the UK is heavily filtered. Every single day, BLM "protestors" are causing havoc across America and what happened to those two deputy sheriffs is just the start of what's to come.

Which news outlets would you recommend for the truth?

[Berwickhibby]

Which news outlets would you recommend for the truth?

Good question as every outlet have their own agenda.., but regardless some actions are repugnant, from the unlawful shootings by police to the unlawful shootings of police

[Hibrandenburg]

My point of view is that the shooter and protesters, especially the those blocking the ambulance bays and shouting the abuse about the officers are **** as per my original post

But then when I agree with you, you get abusive. :confused:

[AT8]

Which news outlets would you recommend for the truth?

I actually watch all the news networks (Fox, CNN, CBS etc) and realize that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Even the local news channels that have no political affiliation paint the picture that BLM, which started out as a noble cause, has morphed into something extremely dangerous

[Hibrandenburg]

Really ... so they were just passing the hospital carrying BLM flags and thought they would have a quick protest on the off chance..,

If BLM have to take the wrap for every incident involving so called activists then surely the whole police force has to take the blame for every rogue/racist cop killing black men.

[Rocky]

Good question as every outlet have their own agenda.., but regardless some actions are repugnant, from the unlawful shootings by police to the unlawful shootings of police

Yeah agendas can do that. Like a little while ago where yours led you to say that I found police shootings acceptable when I'd said nothing even close to that.

It's good to see you've accepted that the actions of a small number of cops have diluted the value of the entire force though. It's only with that level of intolerance of bad behaviour that we can really push forward to address the issues.

[Kato]

If BLM have to take the wrap for every incident involving so called activists then surely the whole police force has to take the blame for every rogue/racist cop killing black men.Berwick seems to want that logic to go his way when it suits but not the way you describe.

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[Berwickhibby]

Yeah agendas can do that. Like a little while ago where yours led you to say that I found police shootings acceptable when I'd said nothing even close to that.

It's good to see you've accepted that the actions of a small number of cops have diluted the value of the entire force though. It's only with that level of intolerance of bad behaviour that we can really push forward to address the issues.

Double edge sword ..., bad officers spoil it, as do bad protestors... I found this incident very disturbing, I will call those there **** ... not the movement

[Rocky]

Double edge sword ..., bad officers spoil it, as do bad protestors... I found this incident very disturbing, I will call those there **** ... not the movement

You definitely said it diluted the protests. And I'm sure those who've commented above are speaking out of turn when they're suggesting you wouldn't apply the same logic to the police. That would just be double standards huh?

[Berwickhibby]

You definitely said it diluted the protests. And I'm sure those who've commented above are speaking out of turn when they're suggesting you wouldn't apply the same logic to the police. That would just be double standards huh?

I probably have less tolerance for bent or bad cops than most. Protect and serve without fear or favour.

[Rocky]

I probably have less tolerance for bent or bad cops than most. Protect and serve without fear or favour.

You have a knack for throwing in a soundbite instead of responding to a challenge. Ever considered politics?

[Berwickhibby]

You have a knack for throwing in a soundbite instead of responding to a challenge. Ever considered politics?

Not a chance... I am to honest

[Kato]

Double edge sword ..., bad officers spoil it, as do bad protestors... I found this incident very disturbing, I will call those there **** ... not the movementBut earlier on you were attempting to attach them and their actions to movement. Using flimsy Mail via Twitter tittle tattle as evidence.





From today's Mail on Sunday ....... Shameful footage said to have been taken outside St. Francis Medical Center in Lynwood on Saturday night shows as one protester yells: 'I want to deliver a message to the family of the pigs, I hope they f***ing die.' The protesters have been connected to the Black Lives Matter movement on Twitter but that has not been officially confirmed.




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[IvanSproule]

I hope the man who said this has all his honours removed, I believe he has statues and is even on bank notes:

'There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.'

Few people have ever deserved a statue more.

Are you confident that, had you lived at the time, you would have held different views?

To erase people like Hume, who did more to bring about equality and empowerment than any contemporary figure I can think of today, because they were not in possession of our full 21st century moral framework is beyond naive.

It fails to recognise that the getting from oppression to equality takes a long time, with a few brave people moving the dial more than everyone else. Without Hume you dont get Wilberforce, without Wilberforce you don't get Lincoln (who thought the idea of political equality for black people was laughable), without Lincoln you dont get Dr Martin Luther King (who treated women like ****). Without all of them put together you don't get the superior understanding of equality that you and me enjoy today by sheer luck of birth.

Regarding the Uni building, the amusing irony is that they have re-named it 40 George Sq. The "George" being George Brown, brother of the architect, who was an army officer in India and a poltical and financial ally of Dundas. They have removed the name of a great humanist philosopher and replaced it with a colonialist slave-trading profiteer.

[Pretty Boy]

Few people have ever deserved a statue more.

Are you confident that, had you lived at the time, you would have held different views?

To erase people like Hume, who did more to bring about equality and empowerment than any contemporary figure I can think of today, because they were not in possession of our full 21st century moral framework is beyond naive.

It fails to recognise that the getting from oppression to equality takes a long time, with a few brave people moving the dial more than everyone else. Without Hume you dont get Wilberforce, without Wilberforce you don't get Lincoln (who thought the idea of political equality for black people was laughable), without Lincoln you dont get Dr Martin Luther King (who treated women like ****). Without all of them put together you don't get the superior understanding of equality that you and me enjoy today by sheer luck of birth.

Regarding the Uni building, the amusing irony is that they have re-named it 40 George Sq. The "George" being George Brown, brother of the architect, who was an army officer in India and a poltical and financial ally of Dundas. They have removed the name of a great humanist philosopher and replaced it with a colonialist slave-trading profiteer.

I think we are broadly in agreement. My post maybe needed a sarcasm smilie.

[CropleyWasGod]

Few people have ever deserved a statue more.

Are you confident that, had you lived at the time, you would have held different views?

To erase people like Hume, who did more to bring about equality and empowerment than any contemporary figure I can think of today, because they were not in possession of our full 21st century moral framework is beyond naive.

It fails to recognise that the getting from oppression to equality takes a long time, with a few brave people moving the dial more than everyone else. Without Hume you dont get Wilberforce, without Wilberforce you don't get Lincoln (who thought the idea of political equality for black people was laughable), without Lincoln you dont get Dr Martin Luther King (who treated women like ****). Without all of them put together you don't get the superior understanding of equality that you and me enjoy today by sheer luck of birth.

Regarding the Uni building, the amusing irony is that they have re-named it 40 George Sq. The "George" being George Brown, brother of the architect, who was an army officer in India and a poltical and financial ally of Dundas. They have removed the name of a great humanist philosopher and replaced it with a colonialist slave-trading profiteer.

They haven't removed the name completely, though. If you read their statement, this is an interim measure, pending a wider review. They also acknowledge Hume's place in history.

I think the Uni have played this well. They could have had the same knee-jerk response as others, and they could have done nothing. Either way, they would have been open to criticism. They have chosen a balanced view, temporarily acknowledging those who "would" erase Hume from history, whilst at the same time recognising the need for a much wider, and less emotionally-driven, debate.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-54197358


Well done that man for taking racist **** all the way to the court.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-54197358


Well done that man for taking racist **** all the way to the court.

Happened in Wetherspoons? Im surprised it wasn’t that prick Tim Martin.

[Keith_M]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-54197358


Well done that man for taking racist **** all the way to the court.



Kudos to the police, as they seem to have been very determined to get the idiot responsible.

[hibsbollah]

https://edition.cnn.com/

Breonna Taylor getting no justice.

[-Jonesy-]

https://edition.cnn.com/

Breonna Taylor getting no justice.

The woman was shot to death in her sleep and one single officer had been charged with “endangerment” for firing into her home.

This will go down well with the BLM protestors...

[silverhibee]

Two police officers shot last night in Kentucky, police officer in statement says "this is now personal" the amount of folk armed to the teeth protecting premises is unbelievable.

[Berwickhibby]

Two police officers shot last night in Kentucky, police officer in statement says "this is now personal" the amount of folk armed to the teeth protecting premises is unbelievable.

I have said it numerous times Yanks and their guns = deaths....

[weecounty hibby]

It is about to become full blown civil war. Trump is already making it clear that he will not accept the outcome if he loses. Trump, NRA, religious zealots, right wing militias v BLM, antifa and others. All armed as well as small countries. Police and possibly military in the middle. What could go wrong.

[Berwickhibby]

It is about to become full blown civil war. Trump is already making it clear that he will not accept the outcome if he loses. Trump, NRA, religious zealots, right wing militias v BLM, antifa and others. All armed as well as small countries. Police and possibly military in the middle. What could go wrong.

I could not have put it any better

[Moulin Yarns]

I couldn't decide whether the US election, Trump or this thread was the right place for this.

One of my all time favourite singer songwriters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSvEOzZqhI


Watch right to the end.

[bigwheel]

I couldn't decide whether the US election, Trump or this thread was the right place for this.

One of my all time favourite singer songwriters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSvEOzZqhI


Watch right to the end.

That’s great. Thanks for sharing ..

[Hibrandenburg]

Another innocent and unarmed black man shot dead. It's not only the fact he was shot that is disturbing in this case, but also the actions or rather inactions of the officers at the scene after he was shot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/31/andre-hill-shooting-body-cam-footage-first-aid

[hibsbollah]

Another innocent and unarmed black man shot dead. It's not only the fact he was shot that is disturbing in this case, but also the actions or rather inactions of the officers at the scene after he was shot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/31/andre-hill-shooting-body-cam-footage-first-aid

Something will come out about a criminal record, or drugs being found in his system, or some other justification.

[matty_f]

Another innocent and unarmed black man shot dead. It's not only the fact he was shot that is disturbing in this case, but also the actions or rather inactions of the officers at the scene after he was shot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/31/andre-hill-shooting-body-cam-footage-first-aid

What a tragic and needless loss of life.

[Keith_M]

Another innocent and unarmed black man shot dead. It's not only the fact he was shot that is disturbing in this case, but also the actions or rather inactions of the officers at the scene after he was shot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/31/andre-hill-shooting-body-cam-footage-first-aid


What exactly was the guy supposed to have done?

:confused:


They don't mention him committing, or even being suspected of, any crime.

[Hibrandenburg]

What exactly was the guy supposed to have done?

:confused:


They don't mention him committing, or even being suspected of, any crime.

He was being black as far as I can tell.

[Colr]

He was being black as far as I can tell.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjV0-Kj0PvtAhVVQkEAHY6sAMYQwqsBMAB6BAgDEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dte SPN8sVbFU&usg=AOvVaw1ELkkIS6uNBGHf6UAKnvek

[hibsbollah]

No charges for cop in Kenosha shooting.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jan/05/georgia-senate-runoffs-trump-republicans-biden-latest-politics-live

[Hibrandenburg]

No charges for cop in Kenosha shooting.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jan/05/georgia-senate-runoffs-trump-republicans-biden-latest-politics-live

I'd say unbelievable, but unfortunately it's not.

[matty_f]

Marked difference in the handling of the situation yesterday to the handling of some recent protests.

[Hibrandenburg]

Marked difference in the handling of the situation yesterday to the handling of some recent protests.

Yep, I said on the Trump thread yesterday, if that was BLM supporters storming the Capitol, they'd still be clearing the dead bodies this morning.

[147lothian]

Lyle Talylor, Nottingham Forest, refused to take the knee, he said, "It's not because I don't think black life's matter, of course they do, but I don't support Black Lifes Matter the organisation".

[Sir David Gray]

Lyle Talylor, Nottingham Forest, refused to take the knee, he said, "It's not because I don't think black life's matter, of course they do, but I don't support Black Lifes Matter the organisation".

Very brave of him to come out with this.

I listened to his interview and thought he spoke very well.

[Keith_M]

Lyle Talylor, Nottingham Forest, refused to take the knee, he said, "It's not because I don't think black life's matter, of course they do, but I don't support Black Lifes Matter the organisation".


I had to look the guy up on Google, to check his ethnicity, before I passed judgement on that viewpoint.

It's a good job he self-identifies as a 'Montserratian', or I would have given him pelters.

[Scouse Hibee]

Lyle Talylor, Nottingham Forest, refused to take the knee, he said, "It's not because I don't think black life's matter, of course they do, but I don't support Black Lifes Matter the organisation".

Good on him, there will be plenty more not brave enough to do the same and feel they are forced to go along with it.

[147lothian]

Good on him, there will be plenty more not brave enough to do the same and feel they are forced to go along with it.

Yeah I say good on him too Scouse Hibee, for what t's worth my wife is black originally from Kenya, and she thinks of black lifes matter (the movement) as a bit of a joke, to her the idea that she is oppressed because she happens to be black and that me, her neighbours and folk she works with are all privilleged because they happen to be white is laughable, so for me although BLM is supported by all the major companies Sky, Google, Spotify etc etc etc I don't think it will last because it hasn't got much support amongst ordinary black people, this will be it's downfall IMO

[Onceinawhile]

Lyle Talylor, Nottingham Forest, refused to take the knee, he said, "It's not because I don't think black life's matter, of course they do, but I don't support Black Lifes Matter the organisation".

Because he thinks they want a Marxist agenda, which to him means higher taxes, which he isn't happy about.

[Berwickhibby]

Because he thinks they want a Marxist agenda, which to him means higher taxes, which he isn't happy about.

Where did you read that? I read this online which had the most detail of his interview https://www.voice-online.co.uk/sport/football/2021/01/11/footballer-refuses-to-take-the-knee-as-he-has-his-doubts-over-black-lives-matter-campaign/

[Lendo]

Where did you read that? I read this online which had the most detail of his interview https://www.voice-online.co.uk/sport/football/2021/01/11/footballer-refuses-to-take-the-knee-as-he-has-his-doubts-over-black-lives-matter-campaign/

Lyle Taylor came across as an absolute moron when he was at Falkirk. I’m 100% confident he has no idea what a Marxist Agenda is.

[Keith_M]

Because he thinks they want a Marxist agenda, which to him means higher taxes, which he isn't happy about.


So you're saying that a guy that lives and works in the UK is opposed to a movement that might bring higher taxes in the US?

I'm presuming you posted that as a joke, as it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[wookie70]

Can anyone explain why Dundee Utd not taking the knee today was deemed an appropriate way to offer support to a black player who had been allegedly racially abused. I can't get my head round it apart from actually doing something different to make it a talking point.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/19175767.dundee-united-players-show-solidarity-rangers-glen-kamara-not-taking-knee/?fbclid=IwAR3XrdpPrvHQtRSKsCqU1tv_35LSqKWMAwFGa2gR xVXI2kNenTGbbWrDUIg

[Keith_M]

Can anyone explain why Dundee Utd not taking the knee today was deemed an appropriate way to offer support to a black player who had been allegedly racially abused. I can't get my head round it apart from actually doing something different to make it a talking point.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/19175767.dundee-united-players-show-solidarity-rangers-glen-kamara-not-taking-knee/?fbclid=IwAR3XrdpPrvHQtRSKsCqU1tv_35LSqKWMAwFGa2gR xVXI2kNenTGbbWrDUIg


Seems a bit weird... but maybe it makes Kamara happy, in some strange way that I can't fathom.

[Andy74]

Can anyone explain why Dundee Utd not taking the knee today was deemed an appropriate way to offer support to a black player who had been allegedly racially abused. I can't get my head round it apart from actually doing something different to make it a talking point.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/19175767.dundee-united-players-show-solidarity-rangers-glen-kamara-not-taking-knee/?fbclid=IwAR3XrdpPrvHQtRSKsCqU1tv_35LSqKWMAwFGa2gR xVXI2kNenTGbbWrDUIg

Their point was that they are standing with him and against racism.

They and other teams have also said that taking the knee was effective at a point in time but isn’t now and they will be focusing on actions rather than a gesture that they think has run its course.

[hibsbollah]

Can anyone explain why Dundee Utd not taking the knee today was deemed an appropriate way to offer support to a black player who had been allegedly racially abused. I can't get my head round it apart from actually doing something different to make it a talking point.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/19175767.dundee-united-players-show-solidarity-rangers-glen-kamara-not-taking-knee/?fbclid=IwAR3XrdpPrvHQtRSKsCqU1tv_35LSqKWMAwFGa2gR xVXI2kNenTGbbWrDUIg

Wilfred Zaha spoke very well on why he’s stopping it. This seems to be an extension of the point, that when something becomes commonplace and everyday it loses its meaning.

[wookie70]

Wilfred Zaha spoke very well on why he’s stopping it. This seems to be an extension of the point, that when something becomes commonplace and everyday it loses its meaning.

Looks like commonplace racism has managed to outlast commonplace protest or raising awareness.

I have no issue with taking a knee stopping if it is done en masse and replaced with something else or better still deemed to be a success but letting it fizzle out one team at a time is about the worse thing that could happen to the symbolism. To me it is like singing "We shall not be moved" while half your fellow protestors are walking away to the pub behind you. Will Dundee Utd take the knee in their next game, if so it might make a bit of sense standing up today.

[Keith_M]

Looks like commonplace racism has managed to outlast commonplace protest or raising awareness.

I have no issue with taking a knee stopping if it is done en masse and replaced with something else or better still deemed to be a success but letting it fizzle out one team at a time is about the worse thing that could happen to the symbolism. To me it is like singing "We shall not be moved" while half your fellow protestors are walking away to the pub behind you. Will Dundee Utd take the knee in their next game, if so it might make a bit of sense standing up today.


I can't imagine many people thought that one gesture at a football match would end racism, though.

The alternative to stopping it would be to make it a permanent feature, with racism carrying on regardless.

[DH1875]

Rangers and Celtic are standing together today and NOT taking the knee.

[Keith_M]

Rangers and Celtic are standing together today and NOT taking the knee.


I'm confused, I thought we were supposed to criticise players for not taking the knee.

Are we now supposed to commend them for not doing so?

:confused:

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm confused, I thought we were supposed to criticise players for not taking the knee.

Are we now supposed to commend them for not doing so?

:confused:

Like a notice pinned on a notice board for too long , people don’t take any notice of it and it loses it’s effect.

[hibsbollah]

Like a notice pinned on a notice board for too long , people don’t take any notice of it and it loses it’s effect.

There’s also the issue of the commentators running out of different ways to to sound serious and respectful after the thousands of times it’s happened. Cartilages everywhere will be breathing a sigh of relief too.

[Keith_M]

There’s also the issue of the commentators running out of different ways to to sound serious and respectful after the thousands of times it’s happened. Cartilages everywhere will be breathing a sigh of relief too.


:greengrin

[DaveF]

Rangers and Celtic are standing together today and NOT taking the knee.

So now we have kneeling, standing or just plain not doing anything. That'll get the message across...

[greenlex]

I'm confused, I thought we were supposed to criticise players for not taking the knee.

Are we now supposed to commend them for not doing so?

:confused:
Handstands. That’ll get some notice..................for a wee bit anyway.

[DH1875]

Marvin Bartley was on radio Clyde tonight talking about it all. Was on for about 20 minutes and a really good listen if you can get it.

[The Modfather]

Marvin Bartley was on radio Clyde tonight talking about it all. Was on for about 20 minutes and a really good listen if you can get it.

I’m sure I saw something about him being hired as the diversity officer (or whatever the title was) for the SFA.

[Keith_M]

I’m sure I saw something about him being hired as the diversity officer (or whatever the title was) for the SFA.


"Livingston captain Marvin Bartley named Scottish FA Equality Advisor as organisation continue efforts to eradicate racism"


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/livingston-captain-marvin-bartley-named-23778115

[Itsnoteasy]

Getting done over by Brora Rangers.

Now that would get you noticed.

[hibsbollah]

Motherwell players discussion, starts 13:45 in

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aB4_y-T5NsU

[wookie70]

The mad Tories understand the value of having a symbol repeated time after time with their compulsory Union Jack flying.

[hibsbollah]

The mad Tories understand the value of having a symbol repeated time after time with their compulsory Union Jack flying.

They’ve gone flag daft. Wrap yourself in it at all times chaps

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/24/government-buildings-to-fly-union-jack-every-day-under-new-rules

[Radium]

https://twitter.com/motherwellfc/status/1375115256968646656?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

https://twitter.com/motherwellfc/status/1375115256968646656?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's disgusting people have to go through that just because of the colour of their skin.

[CMurdoch]

It's disgusting people have to go through that just because of the colour of their skin.

I hate the way the insidious nature of racism slowly breaks people down.
As for social media the ability to be anonymous should have been addressed many years ago. It enables racial abuse, political abuse, undue influence, misinformation etc etc to flourish without risk of challenge. Unacceptable.

As for folk being racist face to face, that blows my mind. Take the incident in the Rangers European game. Racially abused by a fellow player in a high profile game. Not a numpty in the ground or online but a fellow player. As I said, mind blowing.

[Hibrandenburg]

Full video of the murder of George Floyd just been shown during the opening statement from the prosecution in the trial. Utterly despicable and disturbing.

[Crunchie]

Full video of the murder of George Floyd just been shown during the opening statement from the prosecution in the trial. Utterly despicable and disturbing.
Has it been proven he was murdered?

[Hibrandenburg]

Has it been proven he was murdered?

To me it has, any other verdict would be a travesty.

[Crunchie]

To me it has, any other verdict would be a travesty.
Now there's justice for you.

[Smartie]

Now there's justice for you.

In all fairness he has viewed a "full video".

I know there can be all sorts of context to situations, mitigating circumstances etc, but if he's seen a full video then all but made his mind up then surely that's not all that unreasonable, especially given he's no more than a punter on a message board voicing an opinion?

It would be more of a problem if he was on the jury and voicing an opinion based purely on the colour of a defendant's skin, occupation etc without having seen any evidence?

[Crunchie]

In all fairness he has viewed a "full video".

I know there can be all sorts of context to situations, mitigating circumstances etc, but if he's seen a full video then all but made his mind up then surely that's not all that unreasonable, especially given he's no more than a punter on a message board voicing an opinion?

It would be more of a problem if he was on the jury and voicing an opinion based purely on the colour of a defendant's skin, occupation etc without having seen any evidence?
I'm pretty sure his mind was made up before he even saw the video. it's easy to criticise the police, I'd love to see the people doing the criticising walk in a police officers shoes for a day and see how easy it is to police the streets in America.

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm pretty sure his mind was made up before he even saw the video. it's easy to criticise the police, I'd love to see the people doing the criticising walk in a police officers shoes for a day and see how easy it is to police the streets in America.

Police get a raw deal and it's a hard job, doesn't excuse kneeling on someone's neck for a prolonged period of time

[Hibrandenburg]

Now there's justice for you.

I'm a punter on a football forum expressing an opinion not a jury member casting the deciding vote. I get that my personal opinion doesn't sit well with your views, but I'm afraid that if you insist on reading them, then you'll have to put up with them.

[Smartie]

I'm pretty sure his mind was made up before he even saw the video. it's easy to criticise the police, I'd love to see the people doing the criticising walk in a police officers shoes for a day and see how easy it is to police the streets in America.

I think it must be absolute hell to police America and I loathe their gun culture. The dangers they have to face up to every day of their working life are unthinkable.

That doesn't give them a free reign to do what they want to who they want. It is only correct that serious questions are asked after certain incidents, including this one.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm pretty sure his mind was made up before he even saw the video. it's easy to criticise the police, I'd love to see the people doing the criticising walk in a police officers shoes for a day and see how easy it is to police the streets in America.

How can you possibly be sure of what I think and when I decided to think it? That's just stupid. How can you possibly defend anyone, not just a police officer but anyone who presses his knee on someone's neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds, especially when for at least 4 of those minutes George Floyd wasn't breathing?

[Sir David Gray]

I'm pretty sure his mind was made up before he even saw the video. it's easy to criticise the police, I'd love to see the people doing the criticising walk in a police officers shoes for a day and see how easy it is to police the streets in America.

I'm very supportive of the police and certainly in the USA being a police officer must be an extremely tough job and I wouldn't thank you for it. However the footage from that day was very uncomfortable and the officer involved is rightly being asked questions over possible criminal actions.

I do generally agree with you though that I think terms like "murder" should be avoided before a trial has concluded, even on a football forum based thousands of miles away from the incident.

[speedy_gonzales]

I was always told "Murder" was premeditated.
The "legal eagle" that told me this reckoned the only way to get a murder charge to stick in Scotland was to prove the accused woke up with killing on their mind, everything else would eventually be argued down to a manslaughter charge.
Dunno much about the American legal system, do they have manslaughter charge?

[Sir David Gray]

I was always told "Murder" was premeditated.
The "legal eagle" that told me this reckoned the only way to get a murderer charge to stick in Scotland was to prove the accused woke up with killing on their mind, everything else would eventually he argued down to a manslaughter charge.
Dunno much about the American legal system, do they have manslaughter charge?

Yes they do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_(United_States_law)

[neil7908]

I'm pretty sure his mind was made up before he even saw the video. it's easy to criticise the police, I'd love to see the people doing the criticising walk in a police officers shoes for a day and see how easy it is to police the streets in America.

I find it funny when people ask us to sympathise with the police given whenever I've dealt with them I've found them to be the least sympathetic people on the planet.

[CMurdoch]

I think it must be absolute hell to police America and I loathe their gun culture. The dangers they have to face up to every day of their working life are unthinkable.

That doesn't give them a free reign to do what they want to who they want. It is only correct that serious questions are asked after certain incidents, including this one.

American gun culture is insanity.
You simply cannot let everyone have guns and avoid deaths.

When you combine an American cop who wants to stay alive with American gun culture you have a recipe for death.
Stopping cars, going to volatile disturbances etc day and night for days, months and years. I wouldn't fancy the odds.

Cops in Scotland don't have to deal with that sort of pressure and guess what the police and public don't get shot.
It's a lot harder to kill or be killed with bare hands, a lot less fear and stress on both sides without guns and a lot more time to think.

[Keith_M]

I was always told "Murder" was premeditated.
The "legal eagle" that told me this reckoned the only way to get a murderer charge to stick in Scotland was to prove the accused woke up with killing on their mind, everything else would eventually he argued down to a manslaughter charge.
Dunno much about the American legal system, do they have manslaughter charge?


IIRC, they have First and Second Degree Murder, as a way of differentiating the premeditated from 'spur of the moment' murder.

[CMurdoch]

Yes they do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_(United_States_law)

Slightly different here.
We basically have Murder and Culpable Homocide.
Murder is premeditated and Culpable Homocide is not but generally comes about as a result of an illegal or reckless act.

So if we argued on here about Christian Doidge and I sourced a gun and then shot you dead as you left your house it would be murder. I planned to kill you and my intent was to kill you. No grey areas
If alternatively I saw you at the football a few weeks later and we argued in the course of which I punched you and you fell to the ground, hitting the back of your head on the ground and dying as a result I would be guilty of culpable homocide. Murder wasn't my intention but you died as a result of being assaulted by me.

The difference between murder can be very slight.
During the miners strike in the mid 80's two miners were convicted with murder after dropping a block of concrete off a bridge onto a taxi taking a working miner to work killing the driver. On appeal it was reduced to manslaughter/culpable homocide and it is common for defence agents for the accused to argue for reduction of the charge against their client.

[Keith_M]

Slightly different here.
We basically have Murder and Culpable Homocide.
Murder is premeditated and Culpable Homocide is not but generally comes about as a result of an illegal or reckless act.

So if we argued on here about Christian Doidge and I sourced a gun and then shot you dead as you left your house it would be murder. I planned to kill you and my intent was to kill you. No grey areas
If alternatively I saw you at the football a few weeks later and we argued in the course of which I punched you and you fell to the ground, hitting the back of your head on the ground and dying as a result I would be guilty of culpable homocide. Murder wasn't my intention but you died as a result of being assaulted by me.



I can't imagine SDG will be taking you for a pint any time soon.

[Sir David Gray]

Slightly different here.
We basically have Murder and Culpable Homocide.
Murder is premeditated and Culpable Homocide is not but generally comes about as a result of an illegal or reckless act.

So if we argued on here about Christian Doidge and I sourced a gun and then shot you dead as you left your house it would be murder. I planned to kill you and my intent was to kill you. No grey areas
If alternatively I saw you at the football a few weeks later and we argued in the course of which I punched you and you fell to the ground, hitting the back of your head on the ground and dying as a result I would be guilty of culpable homocide. Murder wasn't my intention but you died as a result of being assaulted by me.

The difference between murder can be very slight.
During the miners strike in the mid 80's two miners were convicted with murder after dropping a block of concrete off a bridge onto a taxi taking a working miner to work killing the driver. On appeal it was reduced to manslaughter/culpable homocide and it is common for defence agents for the accused to argue for reduction of the charge against their client.

I'd be ok if it was Christian Doidge who was your accomplice. According to folk on here he never hits the target. :greengrin

[CMurdoch]

I'd be ok if it was Christian Doidge who was your accomplice. According to folk on here he never hits the target. :greengrin

Christian always hits the keeper when he is one on one so no chance you would survive :wink:

[CMurdoch]

I can't imagine SDG will be taking you for a pint any time soon.

I don't think anyone on here will :greengrin

Dangerous to know!

For the avoidance of doubt I wouldn't know how to load a gun never mind shoot it and accordingly would be too scared to put it in my pocket in case I shot my own nads off by mistake. Additionally I need to keep SDG alive because he keeps me updated on the daily administering rates of vaccine in each of the home countries so he is safe meantime.

[Crunchie]

I think it must be absolute hell to police America and I loathe their gun culture. The dangers they have to face up to every day of their working life are unthinkable.

That doesn't give them a free reign to do what they want to who they want. It is only correct that serious questions are asked after certain incidents, including this one.
I agree 100%, I just hope the man gets a fair trial.

[wookie70]

I agree 100%, I just hope the man gets a fair trial. So do I but I expect the establishment will have other ideas

[matty_f]

Motherwell players discussion, starts 13:45 in

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aB4_y-T5NsU

Excellent video.

[matty_f]

I'm a punter on a football forum expressing an opinion not a jury member casting the deciding vote. I get that my personal opinion doesn't sit well with your views, but I'm afraid that if you insist on reading them, then you'll have to put up with them.

It’s not ok for you to decide it’s murder based on a video but it’s ok for the police to kill the guy without him being proven guilty of anything. Have i got that right?

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s not ok for you to decide it’s murder based on a video but it’s ok for the police to kill the guy without him being proven guilty of anything. Have i got that right?

Sounds about right. It's also always worth noting that for over 4 minutes of the 9:26 where the murderer was kneeling on the victims neck, the victim wasn't breathing.

[Sir David Gray]

It’s not ok for you to decide it’s murder based on a video but it’s ok for the police to kill the guy without him being proven guilty of anything. Have i got that right?

No I'm not aware of anyone saying that on this thread.

[matty_f]

No I'm not aware of anyone saying that on this thread.

We have Crunchie hoping that the police officer gets a fair trial (fair enough) and questioning someone on whether they should call it murder, but the same poster hasn't (as far as I can see) expressed any concern that the police were allowed to take the life of a man who had no trial or charges brought against him.


So it's not said, but it's what's not said that's being questioned.

[Keith_M]

On a more general point...



Who on earth came up with the idea that good policing should involve restraining a suspect by compressing somebody's neck with their knee?

:confused:



Surely there must be better ways of dealing with a suspect that's resisting arrest.

[Killiehibbie]

I'm pretty sure his mind was made up before he even saw the video. it's easy to criticise the police, I'd love to see the people doing the criticising walk in a police officers shoes for a day and see how easy it is to police the streets in America.

I'm sure the majority of people would manage it without exerting deadly force on a suspects neck.

[Killiehibbie]

On a more general point...



Who on earth came up with the idea that good policing should involve restraining a suspect by compressing somebody's neck with their knee?

:confused:



Surely there must be better ways of dealing with a suspect that's resisting arrest.

It's cheaper than bullets.

[wookie70]

I'm sure the majority of people would manage it without exerting deadly force on a suspects neck. Especially if they had 4 like minded mates in close attendance.

I just watched the opening statements. It will be interesting to see the wider views from the cameras as the defence have made it out that there was a riot about to unfold and officers were distracted etc. From the body cams you can hardly hear anything apart from some very calm officers dealing with a suspect that hardly moved throughout the time he was on the ground. The officers are in no rush whatsoever kneeling on his neck and twisting his wrist and perhaps if they had shown some patience when he was telling them why he didn't want to go in the car or when he said at an earlier point he was struggling to breathe then maybe Floyd would still be alive. No wonder, as the defence stated, that things often escalate when the police arrive.

I will admit to thinking this is more about the US Police in general than that particular officer. Given the crime was initially passing a fake 20 and he may have been completely unaware it was fake. The shop workers never even questioned the cash at the time only coming out to the car shortly after. At that point he has every right to tell them where to go as the person accusing him could have swapped twenties. Not saying that is what happened but the reaction of the police to a potential crime is unbelievable over the top to me.

[Berwickhibby]

On a more general point...



Who on earth came up with the idea that good policing should involve restraining a suspect by compressing somebody's neck with their knee?

:confused:



Surely there must be better ways of dealing with a suspect that's resisting arrest.

Yanks

[wookie70]

On a more general point...



Who on earth came up with the idea that good policing should involve restraining a suspect by compressing somebody's neck with their knee?

:confused:



Surely there must be better ways of dealing with a suspect that's resisting arrest.

From what was said by the defence he was kneeling on the shoulders not the neck and that was accepted process for Hog Tying a suspect. From all angles it was the neck imo.

If Floyd had been struggling I could see how the placement of the knee may have been difficult but he looked unbelievably passive considering the force being exerted on him particularly if he was a speedbomb crazy man with huge powers as the defence are appearing to say. Looks like the defence will just chuck statement after statement, even if they contradict themselves, just to lay some doubt. I'd love to know the process where they whittle the jury down from 400 and what jurors that leaves. If it is those who don't get involved with social media and haven't heard much about the story then they will be a particular demographic already with their own views already baked in.

[hibsbollah]

#10 report says

There is no
Institutional racism in the UK.

The UK should be used ‘as an exemplar’ for all white majority countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/uk-an-exemplar-of-racial-equality-no-10s-race-commission-concludes

Nice to know.

[lapsedhibee]

#10 report says

There is no
Institutional racism in the UK.

The UK should be used ‘as an exemplar’ for all white majority countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/uk-an-exemplar-of-racial-equality-no-10s-race-commission-concludes

Nice to know.

Didn't #10 also say early on that UK was an exemplar for dealing with a pandemic? :hmmm:

[hibsbollah]

Didn't #10 also say early on that UK was an exemplar for dealing with a pandemic? :hmmm:

Another nice thing to know. Maybe the lefties should pay attention and stop moaning.

I just read the bbc report here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56585538 You could blink and you’d miss that; 1. This is the UK Govt saying there is no problem in the UK and 2. The chair of the report is a well known sceptic of structural racism and was hired by Boris for that exact reason.

Meanwhile it’s become obvious that Boris was ****ging Arcuri while awarding her six figure sums and then sneaking home in the early hours to his wife with a cancer diagnosis, and Sunak Cameron and Boris are knee deep in corrupt ****. Not obvious to the beeb though.