Black Lives Matter

[easty]

Are you suggesting banning the laugh smiley? I used it because he’s made a good point about the boys total inability to defend the indefensible, and I thought bringing the 6-2 into it was funny. If you’re offended by that I respectfully suggest you dry your eyes.

I’m no offended at all. Making an observation. You laugh away at someone like the snide wee mate of the school bully.

If you don’t like my comment I suggest you dry your eyes.

[hibsbollah]

I’m no offended at all. Making an observation. You laugh away at someone like the snide wee mate of the school bully.

If you don’t like my comment I suggest you dry your eyes.

Who are you in this fantasy playground scenario? I’m genuinely interested. I’m voting the janny.

[bigwheel]

It's all a good laugh, eh? It must be nice to be in a position to mock the views of someone who is witnessing firsthand, the problems caused by an increase in crime and a reduction of law enforcement to tackle it.

Ah playing the sympathy point now .. get over yourself. We all live in a complex social world these days. Many people worse of than the UK or the US. You’ve wriggled around a divisive political agenda for pages on this thread ..each time your point is proven weak or wrong you’ve narrowed to a different point on the same agenda ..I was trying to make a funny to draw a line under it all.

[easty]

Who are you in this fantasy playground scenario? I’m genuinely interested. I’m voting the janny.

Cannae post the laughing emoji on my phone, sorry...good one...

[IvanSproule]

I think i'm gonna post my reasons for not supporting the BLM organisation and many of their political supporters because I think they vary from the other posters on this thread that have been critical of them.

I don't care about funding trails, anyone that gives their money to a cause they support (from BLM to OXFAM) knows that not every penny goes where it's intended. This argument is entirely without value.

The violence being seen at protests across the U.S cannot be dropped at the door of an avowedly anti- violent protest movement. Do I think that leading BLM figures speaking out against the violence we're seeing would be helpful? Yes. However that in no way makes them responsible for it.

And my opposition certainly is not born of a belief that the problem they are attempting to tackle is not real. Racism is still alive in every society on the globe, including our own.


My issue is one of misplaced focus and ineffective goals.

By choosing to campaign for the defunding of police forces (this is happening in the UK as well as the US) I believe that the communities that will be most harmed by this are those that BLM claims to be campaigning for. Imagine the improvement to social justice that we would see if it became a legal requirement for all Police officers to wear a body camera that was permanently recording and could not be turned off. Imagine the Rodney King incident if this was the case.
This would require huge funding to achieve and would see an immediate impact. Instead BLM wants to defund police forces, leading to poorer training and a poorer quality of applicants.
That's before you get to how economically vital police careers are for working class/ immigrant/ ethnic minorities trying to pull themselves up the ladder.
It's hard to imagine a more counter-intuitive aim.

I wonder how many people are aware that the state gov't of California (in collaboration with leading BLM activists) has just voted to REPEAL anti-discrimination laws that heroes like Dr Martin Luther King JR literally f##king died to have enshrined in law. This is because this organisation does not believe in achieving equality and judging people by the content of their character, but would rather see active discrimination on particularly racial grounds. This kind of division ends in violence. I can't support it.

From a football standpoint I dislike seeing players and clubs support BLM specifically simply because it is a political organisation. I don't think politics has any place in sport (even good politics) because it is by it's very nature divisive. Sport should be completely inclusive. For an example I give a percentage of my income every year to Help for Heroes and the poppy fund, however a few years back I supported the stance of FIFA that the home nations should not be allowed to wear the poppy in international games because, like it or not, when that symbol leaves these shores it becomes political.
I do not however consider a stance against racism in society to be political, in fact i think it is a pre-requisite to being a decent human being. That is why I would whole-heartedly support the anti-racism displays in our game being fully dedicated to APOLITICAL anti-racist organisations such as SRTRC and Kick it out.

Anyway thats a long post but I just wanted to register a different viewpoint on this.

[Sir David Gray]

I think i'm gonna post my reasons for not supporting the BLM organisation and many of their political supporters because I think they vary from the other posters on this thread that have been critical of them.

I don't care about funding trails, anyone that gives their money to a cause they support (from BLM to OXFAM) knows that not every penny goes where it's intended. This argument is entirely without value.

The violence being seen at protests across the U.S cannot be dropped at the door of an avowedly anti- violent protest movement. Do I think that leading BLM figures speaking out against the violence we're seeing would be helpful? Yes. However that in no way makes them responsible for it.

And my opposition certainly is not born of a belief that the problem they are attempting to tackle is not real. Racism is still alive in every society on the globe, including our own.


My issue is one of misplaced focus and ineffective goals.

By choosing to campaign for the defunding of police forces (this is happening in the UK as well as the US) I believe that the communities that will be most harmed by this are those that BLM claims to be campaigning for. Imagine the improvement to social justice that we would see if it became a legal requirement for all Police officers to wear a body camera that was permanently recording and could not be turned off. Imagine the Rodney King incident if this was the case.
This would require huge funding to achieve and would see an immediate impact. Instead BLM wants to defund police forces, leading to poorer training and a poorer quality of applicants.
That's before you get to how economically vital police careers are for working class/ immigrant/ ethnic minorities trying to pull themselves up the ladder.
It's hard to imagine a more counter-intuitive aim.

I wonder how many people are aware that the state gov't of California (in collaboration with leading BLM activists) has just voted to REPEAL anti-discrimination laws that heroes like Dr Martin Luther King JR literally f##king died to have enshrined in law. This is because this organisation does not believe in achieving equality and judging people by the content of their character, but would rather see active discrimination on particularly racial grounds. This kind of division ends in violence. I can't support it.

From a football standpoint I dislike seeing players and clubs support BLM specifically simply because it is a political organisation. I don't think politics has any place in sport (even good politics) because it is by it's very nature divisive. Sport should be completely inclusive. For an example I give a percentage of my income every year to Help for Heroes and the poppy fund, however a few years back I supported the stance of FIFA that the home nations should not be allowed to wear the poppy in international games because, like it or not, when that symbol leaves these shores it becomes political.
I do not however consider a stance against racism in society to be political, in fact i think it is a pre-requisite to being a decent human being. That is why I would whole-heartedly support the anti-racism displays in our game being fully dedicated to APOLITICAL anti-racist organisations such as SRTRC and Kick it out.

Anyway thats a long post but I just wanted to register a different viewpoint on this.

Good post, well said.

[Rocky]

I think i'm gonna post my reasons for not supporting the BLM organisation and many of their political supporters because I think they vary from the other posters on this thread that have been critical of them.

I don't care about funding trails, anyone that gives their money to a cause they support (from BLM to OXFAM) knows that not every penny goes where it's intended. This argument is entirely without value.

The violence being seen at protests across the U.S cannot be dropped at the door of an avowedly anti- violent protest movement. Do I think that leading BLM figures speaking out against the violence we're seeing would be helpful? Yes. However that in no way makes them responsible for it.

And my opposition certainly is not born of a belief that the problem they are attempting to tackle is not real. Racism is still alive in every society on the globe, including our own.


My issue is one of misplaced focus and ineffective goals.

By choosing to campaign for the defunding of police forces (this is happening in the UK as well as the US) I believe that the communities that will be most harmed by this are those that BLM claims to be campaigning for. Imagine the improvement to social justice that we would see if it became a legal requirement for all Police officers to wear a body camera that was permanently recording and could not be turned off. Imagine the Rodney King incident if this was the case.
This would require huge funding to achieve and would see an immediate impact. Instead BLM wants to defund police forces, leading to poorer training and a poorer quality of applicants.
That's before you get to how economically vital police careers are for working class/ immigrant/ ethnic minorities trying to pull themselves up the ladder.
It's hard to imagine a more counter-intuitive aim.

I wonder how many people are aware that the state gov't of California (in collaboration with leading BLM activists) has just voted to REPEAL anti-discrimination laws that heroes like Dr Martin Luther King JR literally f##king died to have enshrined in law. This is because this organisation does not believe in achieving equality and judging people by the content of their character, but would rather see active discrimination on particularly racial grounds. This kind of division ends in violence. I can't support it.

From a football standpoint I dislike seeing players and clubs support BLM specifically simply because it is a political organisation. I don't think politics has any place in sport (even good politics) because it is by it's very nature divisive. Sport should be completely inclusive. For an example I give a percentage of my income every year to Help for Heroes and the poppy fund, however a few years back I supported the stance of FIFA that the home nations should not be allowed to wear the poppy in international games because, like it or not, when that symbol leaves these shores it becomes political.
I do not however consider a stance against racism in society to be political, in fact i think it is a pre-requisite to being a decent human being. That is why I would whole-heartedly support the anti-racism displays in our game being fully dedicated to APOLITICAL anti-racist organisations such as SRTRC and Kick it out.

Anyway thats a long post but I just wanted to register a different viewpoint on this.

You do know that the anti racism displays in the Scottish game are dedicated to SRTRC I assume?

[IvanSproule]

You do know that the anti racism displays in the Scottish game are dedicated to SRTRC I assume?

I do, and i'm glad of how much focus SRTRC are getting.

However I think you are also aware of the BLM banners at every ground including Easter Road, and I would rather the pre-game show of support was the players holding the SRTRC logo instead of taking the knee.

[Rocky]

I do, and i'm glad of how much focus SRTRC are getting.

However I think you are also aware of the BLM banners at every ground including Easter Road, and I would rather the pre-game show of support was the players holding the SRTRC logo instead of taking the knee.
So if a "political organisation" half way round the world uses a phrase which at its core is apolitical, and adopts taking the knee, a powerful gesture of solidarity, that means that no-one else can use them and remain apolitical?

Given that the "football lads alliance" form corteos to games should we have to stop those too? Is it really that easy to claim ownership of a gesture?

For what it's worth I agree with much of what you say but only because some of the issues around politicisation have made it far too easy for racists to deflect from the core message.

[AT8]

I'm absolutely sickened by this. I've been following reports of BLM attacking a good samaritan in Portland, OR last night and came across the following video which goes into detail of how the events unfolded. I urge you to watch this and maybe then, you will understand where my line of thinking comes from. I have no doubt that BLM UK is an entirely different organization to what I'm dealing with, so I hope this video provides some insight.

WARNING - GRAPHIC CONTENT

https://youtu.be/SZt2KchYgmI

[Rocky]

I'm absolutely sickened by this. I've been following reports of BLM attacking a good samaritan in Portland, OR last night and came across the following video which goes into detail of how the events unfolded. I urge you to watch this and maybe then, you will understand where my line of thinking comes from. I have no doubt that BLM UK is an entirely different organization to what I'm dealing with, so I hope this video provides some insight.

WARNING - GRAPHIC CONTENT

https://youtu.be/SZt2KchYgmI

I'm not going to watch it but I'll assume it's the Keese Love incident which is absolutely sickening and definitely worthy of discussion and he needs to go to jail for a very long time. And if, as suggested, there are groups mobilising under the Black Lives Matter banner to carry out vigilante action then that also needs clamped down on.

To your second point, no, it doesn't explain your position. It only happened last night.

[AT8]

I'm not going to watch it but I'll assume it's the Keese Love incident which is absolutely sickening and definitely worthy of discussion and he needs to go to jail for a very long time. And if, as suggested, there are groups mobilising under the Black Lives Matter banner to carry out vigilante action then that also needs clamped down on.

To your second point, no, it doesn't explain your position. It only happened last night.

This is the sort of behavior that’s been going on for weeks in America (admittedly, this example is the most extreme) which is why I have a dislike for BLM.

I’m glad to hear you condemn this action and I’m equally surprised you were already aware of it as I thought it would have been something the msm would have kept buried.

[WeeRussell]

This is the sort of behavior that’s been going on for weeks in America (admittedly, this example is the most extreme) which is why I have a dislike for BLM.

I’m glad to hear you condemn this action and I’m equally surprised you were already aware of it as I thought it would have been something the msm would have kept buried.

Inevitable examples of bad behaviour from all sides of the argument absolutely aren't to be defended or excused, and I can tell before opening your link that this specific example is only going to cause trouble/harm for the BLM cause... however I think the reason you've taken a lot of stick on this thread, having skimmed through the last couple of pages, is that you seem to be shirking (at times even denying) the sort of behaviour that has been going on for years/decades/centuries. i.e. systemic and historic racism towards black people, including amongst a significant number of law enforcers.

Generally speaking, people who go to persistent great lengths in criticising these movements without acknowledging any positives, or even accepting there is good reason for such a movement, are assumed to have certain 'characteristics'.

[RIP]

This is the sort of behavior that’s been going on for weeks in America (admittedly, this example is the most extreme) which is why I have a dislike for BLM.

I’m glad to hear you condemn this action and I’m equally surprised you were already aware of it as I thought it would have been something the msm would have kept buried.

BLM is as I understand it a US-only (plus Canada?) organisation which operates in a racially-charged environment where the last President was of African descent and the current President is a white supremacist.

As a Scot living there, what's your take on Trump and whether he is fuelling racism in the US? And what ideas do you have for unifying black and white Americans to campaign against him?

[Hibrandenburg]

This is the sort of behavior that’s been going on for weeks in America (admittedly, this example is the most extreme) which is why I have a dislike for BLM.

I’m glad to hear you condemn this action and I’m equally surprised you were already aware of it as I thought it would have been something the msm would have kept buried.

Did you hate Hibs when we had an element of thugs that followed the club and used it as a premise to indulge in thuggish behaviour?

[AT8]

Inevitable examples of bad behaviour from all sides of the argument absolutely aren't to be defended or excused, and I can tell before opening your link that this specific example is only going to cause trouble/harm for the BLM cause... however I think the reason you've taken a lot of stick on this thread, having skimmed through the last couple of pages, is that you seem to be shirking (at times even denying) the sort of beha i.e. systemic and historic racism towards black people, including amongst a significant number of law enforcers.

Generally speaking, people who go to persistent great lengths in criticising these movements without acknowledging any positives, or even accepting there is good reason for such a movement, are assumed to have certain 'characteristics'.

I would caution you to choose your words wisely.

[Rocky]

I would caution you to choose your words wisely.
His words are fine. People do make those assumptions whether they're correct or not.

[AT8]

BLM is as I understand it a US-only (plus Canada?) organisation which operates in a racially-charged environment where the last President was of African descent and the current President is a white supremacist.

As a Scot living there, what's your take on Trump and whether he is fuelling racism in the US? And what ideas do you have for unifying black and white Americans to campaign against him?

Why would I want to campaign against Trump? I'm one of probably only two Republicans associated with Hibs.

[AT8]

Did you hate Hibs when we had an element of thugs that followed the club and used it as a premise to indulge in thuggish behaviour?

If the violence was having a direct impact on my life, then yes, I probably would have abandoned Hibs and football in general.

[MKHIBEE]

If the violence was having a direct impact on my life, then yes, I probably would have abandoned Hibs and football in general.

So your answer to the question is no. Are you a politician?

[WeeRussell]

I would caution you to choose your words wisely.

Don’t worry. I always do.

Curious as to why your only response was to lash out and warn me about my words though. What is it that made you uncomfortable?

Did you say you’re a fan of Donald Trump?

[WeeRussell]

His words are fine. People do make those assumptions whether they're correct or not.

👍

[AT8]

Don’t worry. I always do.

Curious as to why your only response was to lash out and warn me about my words though. What is it that made you uncomfortable?

Did you say you’re a fan of Donald Trump?

I may have misunderstood your intentions, but you gave the impression you were accusing me of being a racist. If that wasn’t your intention, then fine but given that labeling someone a racist in the current climate is the most damaging thing you can do to someone, I urge you to choose your words wisely.

[lapsedhibee]

labeling someone a racist in the current climate is the most damaging thing you can do to someone

Toss-up but I'd still plump for kneeling on someone's neck being worse.

[MKHIBEE]

Toss-up but I'd still plump for kneeling on someone's neck being worse.

Not even close, especially after 9 minutes

[Rocky]

This is the sort of behavior that’s been going on for weeks in America (admittedly, this example is the most extreme) which is why I have a dislike for BLM.

I’m glad to hear you condemn this action and I’m equally surprised you were already aware of it as I thought it would have been something the msm would have kept buried.
Would you consider this article sufficient justification for me to say "this is why I have a dislike for the police"? If not, can you articulate the difference between your position on BLM and me doing so?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-53818588

For the record, I don't dislike the police. I wouldn't judge an entire organisation on the behaviour of some of their members.

[IvanSproule]

So if a "political organisation" half way round the world uses a phrase which at its core is apolitical, and adopts taking the knee, a powerful gesture of solidarity, that means that no-one else can use them and remain apolitical?

Given that the "football lads alliance" form corteos to games should we have to stop those too? Is it really that easy to claim ownership of a gesture?

For what it's worth I agree with much of what you say but only because some of the issues around politicisation have made it far too easy for racists to deflect from the core message.

Correct, by adopting the imagery of an avowedly political organisation it forces people to assume/hope that when players wear BLM on their shirts or take a knee that they are not advocating for the crazy political goals of that organisation, this confuses and weakens the core message
There would be none of that ambiguity with other apolitical organisations.

Could i ask you to expand on that last sentence? Im not sure i understood what you're trying to say.

[Hibrandenburg]

Another black man shot by police in the US. He was shot 7 times in the back whilst trying to check on his kids in the car after breaking up a fight. Guess well have to wait to hear the police side of events.

[EAZY-ME]

Another black man shot by police in the US. He was shot 7 times in the back whilst trying to check on his kids in the car after breaking up a fight. Guess well have to wait to hear the police side of events.

We're his kids in the glove box?.... more to the point have you actually watched the video or just baiting

[-Jonesy-]

We're his kids in the glove box?.... more to the point have you actually watched the video or just baiting

I’ve seen it, don’t know what you’ve seen that shows him reaching into the glovebox? Don’t know why either seeing as he wasn’t armed

[Scouse Hibee]

We're his kids in the glove box?.... more to the point have you actually watched the video or just baiting

I’ve watched it, didn’t see him in the glove box though, what I did see was him being shot without any attempt to subdue him with his back to the officers. Would love to hear the explanation for this one!

[AT8]

Another black man shot by police in the US. He was shot 7 times in the back whilst trying to check on his kids in the car after breaking up a fight. Guess well have to wait to hear the police side of events.

You're totally at it. There was an active warrant for his arrest (not justification for being shot) which is probably why he resisted, failed to follow Police commands and then reached inside his car (possibly for a gun). This was most definitely not a case of the Police shooting a black man who was simply checking on his kids.

[Scouse Hibee]

You're totally at it. There was an active warrant for his arrest (not justification for being shot) which is probably why he resisted, failed to follow Police commands and then reached inside his car (possibly for a gun). This was most definitely not a case of the Police shooting a black man who was simply checking on his kids.

Unarmed black men shot in the back seven times by cops with no sign of him brandishing a weapon.....seven times! Who’s really at it?

[AT8]

Unarmed black men shot in the back seven times by cops with no sign of him brandishing a weapon.....seven times! Who’s really at it?

I stand by my statement that he wasn't shot because he was black and simply checking on his kids.

[EAZY-ME]

I’ve watched it, didn’t see him in the glove box though, what I did see was him being shot without any attempt to subdue him with his back to the officers.

Watch again.... The police were screaming at him to stop... he then pushes away the officer and marches round to the drivers side and reaches under the steering wheel area... (some yank cars have glove boxes or shelfs in that area). He then continued to ignore the police and started reaching in. Maybe seven shots was excessive but the cops were in fear of their lives as they thought he was about to pull out a weapon. If he had cooperated he would not have been shot

[Scouse Hibee]

I stand by my statement that he wasn't shot because he was black and simply checking on his kids.

And I stand by mine.

[Scouse Hibee]

Watch again.... The police were screaming at him to stop... he then pushes away the officer and marches round to the drivers side and reaches under the steering wheel area... (some yank cars have glove boxes or shelfs in that area). He then continued to ignore the police and started reaching in. Maybe seven shots was excessive but the cops were in fear of their lives as they thought he was about to pull out a weapon. If he had cooperated he would not have been shot

I’ve watched it several times, unless you have X-ray vision you have made assumptions that will no doubt be the same assumptions the cops that shot him will be putting in their statements. If the cops had simply subdued and restrained him there would have been no need to shoot first and make up excuses later. Maybe seven shots were excessive.......maybe????
Still I suppose they could have dragged him to the flor and kneeled on his neck instead!

[AT8]

I’ve watched it several times, unless you have X-ray vision you have made assumptions that will no doubt be the same assumptions the cops that shot him will be putting in their statements. If the cops had simply subdued and restrained him there would have been no need to shoot first and make up excuses later. Maybe seven shots were excessive.......maybe????

There was a warrant out for his arrest, he had a violent criminal history past, he had already ignored orders, are the Police just supposed to sit back and see what he does next?

[Scouse Hibee]

There was a warrant out for his arrest, he had a violent criminal history past, he had already ignored orders, are the Police just supposed to sit back and see what he does next?

Well they’re are certainly not just supposed to shoot him just in case, are they? If his background was that well known they could have well restrained him before he even got to the car.

[AT8]

Well they’re are certainly not just supposed to shoot him just in case, are they? If his background was that well known they could have well restrained him before he even got to the car.

They did try to restrain him and he kept walking to his car. Once again, a classic example of someone who thinks the laws don't apply to him.

[EAZY-ME]

Well they’re are certainly not just supposed to shoot him just in case, are they? If his background was that well known they could have well restrained him before he even got to the car.

They tried that and he shrugged them off ... most cops would have shot him before he even reached the car

[Scouse Hibee]

They tried that and he shrugged them off ... most cops would have shot him before he even reached the car

He shrugged them off 😂
Believe me if you think someone may pose you such a threat that you intend to restrain them, you don’t just allow them to shrug you off.
“Most cops would have shot an unarmed man before he reached the car” wow these guys were just a bit late then eh.

[EAZY-ME]

.

[Hibrandenburg]

We're his kids in the glove box?.... more to the point have you actually watched the video or just baiting

Simply commenting on what I was reading and saw last night. It's relevant to this thread and it's all in the link. What is your problem?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/jacob-blake-national-guard-scrambled-to-wisconsin-as-protests-ignite-over-us-police-shooting-of-black-man-12056018

[Colr]

They tried that and he shrugged them off ... most cops would have shot him before he even reached the car

They don’t have tazers?

They seemed to have plenty of opportunity to deal with the situation without gunning him down.

[Hibrandenburg]

You're totally at it. There was an active warrant for his arrest (not justification for being shot) which is probably why he resisted, failed to follow Police commands and then reached inside his car (possibly for a gun). This was most definitely not a case of the Police shooting a black man who was simply checking on his kids.

Totally at it by adding to a link about BLM the news that another black man was shot by police seven times in the back? Maybe you know more about it than I do but reporting what I'm reading on one of our national TV news outlets on a relevant thread is not being "at it". Try and keep the heid.

[hibsbollah]

I stand by my statement that he wasn't shot because he was black and simply checking on his kids.

I think it’s now apparent that you will defend anything at this point, however outrageous.

I understand that you distrust most media sources but in the interests of getting an alternative point of view, why not give this a listen? It’s a conversation with a black D.C. prosecutor.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/25xcWGvKYjDQIn2sZnQV6Q?si=3ZpQxVy-QVqiYEIMGfi47Q (https://open.spotify.com/episode/25xcWGvKYjDQIn2sZnQV6Q?si=3ZpQxVy-QVqiYEIMGfi47Q)

[Bristolhibby]

They don’t have tazers?

They seemed to have plenty of opportunity to deal with the situation without gunning him down.

Maybe they should. And have intensive deescaliation training and training with batons and non lethal control.

It always seems to be shoot first, think later.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Also, was there actually a gun in the car in the glovebox?

Or was this just something he “could have” been reaching for. The mans kids were in the car. Would you pull a gun on cops with your kids in the back??

J

[JimBHibees]

Am I reading this right some people justifying shooting someone seven times in the back with his kids in the car. Unbelievable.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sky now reporting that an exchange of gunfire has taken place in Wisconsin at a protest over the death of Jacob Blake,at least one fatality.

[EAZY-ME]

Sky now reporting that an exchange of gunfire has taken place in Wisconsin at a protest over the death of Jacob Blake,at least one fatality.

Hes not dead. Doctors saying he won't walk again though which is absolutely awful. If he just complied with the arresting officers especially knowing his kids were there then none of this would ever have happened. Seven shots was excessive but if your the officer and he's reaching into a car when he's been ordered to stop then you aren't going to take any chances.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hes not dead. Doctors saying he won't walk again though which is absolutely awful. If he just complied with the arresting officers especially knowing his kids were there then none of this would ever have happened. Seven shots was excessive but if your the officer and he's reaching into a car when he's been ordered to stop then you aren't going to take any chances.

My mistake, don't know why I wrote death instead of shooting, but there's just so many similar incidents it's easy to start getting crossed wires.

[Scouse Hibee]

Hes not dead. Doctors saying he won't walk again though which is absolutely awful. If he just complied with the arresting officers especially knowing his kids were there then none of this would ever have happened. Seven shots was excessive but if your the officer and he's reaching into a car when he's been ordered to stop then you aren't going to take any chances.

Yes you don’t take any chances, you restrain him before he even gets to his car, trying to justify this shooting is remarkable.

[EAZY-ME]

Yes you don’t take any chances, you restrain him before he even gets to his car, trying to justify this shooting is remarkable.

So if you were a trained police officer in that situation and it played out exactly as it did in the video would you have waited to see what he pulled out the car..

[Scouse Hibee]

So if you were a trained police officer in that situation and it played out exactly as it did in the video would you have waited to see what he pulled out the car..

As I have already said if I was a trained Police officer dealing with a guy with a record and a history of violence I would have restrained him before he got to the car or had the opportunity to reach for or get to any potential concealed weapon. There was ample opportunity to do so. I am not a cop but have worked in an environment where the reputation and potential for a person to be violent has meant that along with my colleagues we have restrained them before they had any opportunity, admittedly mostly the threat of knives and not firearms in my experience but that is immaterial. I have been trained in arrest and restraint, twenty odd years ago but I still recall many a potential threatening situation that we dealt with. And to add we never carried any weapons or devices to defend ourselves.

[danhibees1875]

Maybe I just seen a shorter video but I didn't see much attempt to restrain him - surely there's better ways to stop someone, who at the time was unarmed, than put 7 bullets into their back. :dunno:

It's a shame it escalated to there and the guy hasn't helped himself by not following police orders and going into his car. Those actions required a reaction - but I don't think they required that reaction.

[Hibrandenburg]

So if you were a trained police officer in that situation and it played out exactly as it did in the video would you have waited to see what he pulled out the car..

Depends on the training. If the training dictates that I should shoot black men 7 times in the back before I actually was pretty certain that he had the intention of harming me or others and also had the means (gun), then I'd have handed in my badge a long time ago.

[Mon Dieu4]

As I have already said if I was a trained Police officer dealing with a guy with a record and a history of violence I would have restrained him before he got to the car or had the opportunity to reach for or get to any potential concealed weapon.

That's where I would come from, are there racist police out there, hell yes, but seems to me that there are more who are not suitable for the job from a psychological standpoint and that the training they receive is nowhere near sufficient for the job they are doing

Looks like they all need some serious de-escalation training as he shouldnt have had the chance to get anywhere near the car door in the first place

[EAZY-ME]

Depends on the training. If the training dictates that I should shoot black men 7 times in the back before I actually was pretty certain that he had the intention of harming me or others and also had the means (gun), then I'd have handed in my badge a long time ago.

The training doesn't dictate shooting black men. Otherwise i doubt there would be any black police officers. Why is the shooting of a black man by police deemed racist. White men are shot as well.

[Scouse Hibee]

The training doesn't dictate shooting black men. Otherwise i doubt there would be any black police officers. Why is the shooting of a black man by police deemed racist. White men are shot as well.

To be honest I just saw cops shoot an unarmed man in the back, I never took note of the ethnicity of anyone involved.

[Moulin Yarns]

You're totally at it. There was an active warrant for his arrest (not justification for being shot) which is probably why he resisted, failed to follow Police commands and then reached inside his car (possibly for a gun). This was most definitely not a case of the Police shooting a black man who was simply checking on his kids.

Unarmed, shot in the back, point blank range 7 times. Obviously resisting arrest right enough. And you justify this because you claim there was an active warrant for his arrest, no news site appears to be reporting this. So if you have proof, provide it. But you can't defend the indefensible.

BBC

Police say they were responding to a domestic incident when they went to the site of Sunday's shooting but have given few other details. So far it is unclear who called the police, how many officers were involved, and what happened before the shooting.
Footage of the incident show Mr Blake opening the door and leaning into the car, at which point one officer grabs his shirt and opens fire. Seven shots can be heard in the video, as witnesses shout and scream.



CNN

On Sunday evening, Blake was on a Kenosha street lined with apartment buildings. He was "breaking up a fight between two women," said Benjamin Crump, an attorney hired by the family.
Kenosha police arrived, responding to a domestic incident, police said.



Al Jazeera

As Blake opens the door and leans into the car, an officer grabs his shirt from behind and opens fire while Blake has his back turned. Seven shots can be heard, though it is not clear how many struck Blake or how many officers fired.

Police did not say whether Blake was armed or why police opened fire, they released no details on the domestic dispute, and they did not immediately disclose the race of the three officers at the scene.

[Berwickhibby]

Depends on the training. If the training dictates that I should shoot black men 7 times in the back before I actually was pretty certain that he had the intention of harming me or others and also had the means (gun), then I'd have handed in my badge a long time ago.

Spoken like a true woke fandan who wants to make everything a race issue ��

The excessive shooting is not justified imho

But let's discuss the lead up which conviently is not recorded and I can only go in what I have read, so I could be misled by the press reports.

Police were called to a violent incident where its reported there is someone with a knife. On arrival Blake is involved on altercation (suggestions are he was breaking up a fight) he has an outstanding warrant. He becomes uncooperative with police, he gets arrested. Again this is from reports he resists arrest a taser is used but fails to deploy. He heads towards his car followed by officers pointing guns at him. It's alleged that he said he was going for his gun. He then opens his car door leans in and officer (s) fire 7 rounds.

My main points are

1. The amount of rounds fired is excessive

2. He should have been physically restrained long before he got to his car, rather than following him pointing a firearm.

3. If he had actually not risisted then he would not have got shot.

4. It's America FFS

5. I imagine this scenario would play out the same, and probably has regardless of the race and colour of the person involved.

[Hibrandenburg]

Unarmed, shot in the back, point blank range 7 times. Obviously resisting arrest right enough. And you justify this because you claim there was an active warrant for his arrest, no news site appears to be reporting this. So if you have proof, provide it. But you can't defend the indefensible.

BBC


CNN


Al Jazeera

To be fair there are several reports that there was a warrant out on him related to a domestic incident. The police were called to a domestic incident and arrived 3 minutes before the shooting took place. There's still a lot of details to come out, but an arrest warrant doesn't justify him being shot 7 times in the back.

[Mon Dieu4]

Unarmed, shot in the back, point blank range 7 times. Obviously resisting arrest right enough. And you justify this because you claim there was an active warrant for his arrest, no news site appears to be reporting this. So if you have proof, provide it. But you can't defend the indefensible.

BBC


CNN


Al Jazeera

I've seen online what claims to be the guys arrest history and what the current warrants he has are for, if they are true then he's no a nice dude in the slightest, doesn't justify the polices handling of this though and should have been nipped in the bud long before he got to the car door

[EAZY-ME]

I wonder what would happen if it was the other way round and the guy shot the police officer. I suspect we wouldn't even hear about it.

[Moulin Yarns]

There was a warrant out for his arrest, he had a violent criminal history past, he had already ignored orders, are the Police just supposed to sit back and see what he does next?

Again, if you are making damning statements you have to back it up with evidence.

CNN

Blake's family has a legacy of activism.
His grandfather, the Rev. Jacob Blake Sr., led the fight for fair housing in Evanston throughout the 1960s and '70s and led the Ebenezer AME Church congregation. He organized marches following the assassination of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. that eventually led Evanston City Council members to ban racial discrimination in housing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hes not dead. Doctors saying he won't walk again though which is absolutely awful. If he just complied with the arresting officers especially knowing his kids were there then none of this would ever have happened. Seven shots was excessive but if your the officer and he's reaching into a car when he's been ordered to stop then you aren't going to take any chances.

Put yourself in Jacob Blake's position, a number of armed police are called to a domestic dispute which you have intervened to break up, they are restraining you, not the people who were fighting to begin with, you have a number of choices, try to defuse the situation as a black man against several armed police, tell the police you have young children in the car and need to check on them and tell them daddy is going to be a while, accept your arrest leaving 3 young children in the car.

You have a choice to make, which will it be?

As for your avatar, considering the subject matter?!

[Moulin Yarns]

So if you were a trained police officer in that situation and it played out exactly as it did in the video would you have waited to see what he pulled out the car..

Shooting an armed suspect is slightly more justifiable than SEVEN shots in the back from point blank range of an unarmed man when he has, as far as any of us know, done nothing wrong!

[Mon Dieu4]

See what has happened, it has been said by one poster that Jacob Blake had a record and history of violence, yet none of the news reports I have read state this as fact, but now it is a Hibs.net fact.

The BBC are now reporting that he had arrest warrants out for sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct but that they are unsure if the police officers knew this at the time, again none of that justifies the outcome

[Hibrandenburg]

Spoken like a true woke fandan who wants to make everything a race issue 😡

The excessive shooting is not justified imho

But let's discuss the lead up which conviently is not recorded and I can only go in what I have read, so I could be misled by the press reports.

Police were called to a violent incident where its reported there is someone with a knife. On arrival Blake is involved on altercation (suggestions are he was breaking up a fight) he has an outstanding warrant. He becomes uncooperative with police, he gets arrested. Again this is from reports he resists arrest a taser is used but fails to deploy. He heads towards his car followed by officers pointing guns at him. It's alleged that he said he was going for his gun. He then opens his car door leans in and officer (s) fire 7 rounds.

My main points are

1. The amount of rounds fired is excessive

2. He sound have been physically restrained long before he got to his car, rather than following him pointing a firearm.

3. If he had actually not risisted then he would not have got shot.

4. It's America FFS

5. I imagine this scenario would play out the same, and probably has regardless of the race and colour of the person involved.

Spoken like an angry gammon who for one reason or another is in denial about America's racial problems. I normally would have chosen a different start to my reply to you, but let's keep it on the record that it was you who first brought the debate down to this level by introducing personal insults.

Do I believe that there is a racial problem amongst some American police officers? You're damn right I do and it goes right back to the origins of many regional forces.

There are several conflicting reports of the incident from different sources at the moment and I wouldn't trust any of them just yet. Like I said earlier, there's more to come out in the wash but nothing will justify shooting someone 7 times in the back. 7 times in 2 rapid bursts.

As for your list of points I think we can agree on 1.-4., point 5. I'm not too sure about.

[Scouse Hibee]

See what has happened, it has been said by one poster that Jacob Blake had a record and history of violence, yet none of the news reports I have read state this as fact, but now it is a Hibs.net fact.

II was just using it to justify why alternative action should have been taken in response to it being used as an excuse for shooting him.

[JeMeSouviens]

Spoken like a true woke fandan who wants to make everything a race issue ��

The excessive shooting is not justified imho

But let's discuss the lead up which conviently is not recorded and I can only go in what I have read, so I could be misled by the press reports.

Police were called to a violent incident where its reported there is someone with a knife. On arrival Blake is involved on altercation (suggestions are he was breaking up a fight) he has an outstanding warrant. He becomes uncooperative with police, he gets arrested. Again this is from reports he resists arrest a taser is used but fails to deploy. He heads towards his car followed by officers pointing guns at him. It's alleged that he said he was going for his gun. He then opens his car door leans in and officer (s) fire 7 rounds.

My main points are

1. The amount of rounds fired is excessive

2. He should have been physically restrained long before he got to his car, rather than following him pointing a firearm.

3. If he had actually not risisted then he would not have got shot.

4. It's America FFS

5. I imagine this scenario would play out the same, and probably has regardless of the race and colour of the person involved.


You can bring up mitigating circumstances for any individual incident until the cows come home. It won't change the massively disproportionate statistics of black people shot by US police.

[EAZY-ME]

Spoken like a true woke fandan who wants to make everything a race issue ��

The excessive shooting is not justified imho

But let's discuss the lead up which conviently is not recorded and I can only go in what I have read, so I could be misled by the press reports.

Police were called to a violent incident where its reported there is someone with a knife. On arrival Blake is involved on altercation (suggestions are he was breaking up a fight) he has an outstanding warrant. He becomes uncooperative with police, he gets arrested. Again this is from reports he resists arrest a taser is used but fails to deploy. He heads towards his car followed by officers pointing guns at him. It's alleged that he said he was going for his gun. He then opens his car door leans in and officer (s) fire 7 rounds.

My main points are

1. The amount of rounds fired is excessive

2. He should have been physically restrained long before he got to his car, rather than following him pointing a firearm.

3. If he had actually not risisted then he would not have got shot.

4. It's America FFS

5. I imagine this scenario would play out the same, and probably has regardless of the race and colour of the person involved.

There is a video circulating where someone is discussing a screen shot of the incident and has circled something in his waistband and claims its a knife..... there is definitely something there but it could be a mobile phone or wallet and as i wasnt certain i didn't mention it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hes not dead. Doctors saying he won't walk again though which is absolutely awful. If he just complied with the arresting officers especially knowing his kids were there then none of this would ever have happened. Seven shots was excessive but if your the officer and he's reaching into a car when he's been ordered to stop then you aren't going to take any chances.

Yeah, because there's been absolutely no history of anything going wrong for black people who "complied with arresting officers". :rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

There is a video circulating where someone is discussing a screen shot of the incident and has circled something in his waistband and claims its a knife..... there is definitely something there but it could be a mobile phone or wallet and as i wasnt certain i didn't mention it.

If it was a knife, then surely these highly trained police officers would know that instead of pumping 7 rounds into his back, that by simply taking 3 steps backwards with weapons pointed would nullify any danger from an undrawn blade? Or was it noted on the arrest warrant that he was known to be a knife throwing ninja?

[EAZY-ME]

Yeah, because there's been absolutely no history of anything going wrong for black people who "complied with arresting officers". :rolleyes:

Is that statistically speaking again ?

As you seem to know all the stats can we please see them

[Berwickhibby]

You can bring up mitigating circumstances for any individual incident until the cows come home. It won't change the massively disproportionate statistics of black people shot by US police.

Your right it doesn't, but not every shooting of black people by police in America is based on Racism.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah, because there's been absolutely no history of anything going wrong for black people who "complied with arresting officers". :rolleyes:

Is it just coincidence that many of those who justify fear of ethnic minorities and the reaction towards them by pointing out that some terrorist attacks have been carried out by people of ethnic minorities, are the same people that can't get their heads round the idea that the black community are frightened of the police?

[Hibrandenburg]

Your right it doesn't, but not every shooting of black people by police in America is based on Racism.

Now we're getting somewhere, at least we're now recognizing that some are.

[Smartie]

Spoken like an angry gammon who for one reason or another is in denial about America's racial problems. I normally would have chosen a different start to my reply to you, but let's keep it on the record that it was you who first brought the debate down to this level by introducing personal insults.

Do I believe that there is a racial problem amongst some American police officers? You're damn right I do and it goes right back to the origins of many regional forces.

There are several conflicting reports of the incident from different sources at the moment and I wouldn't trust any of them just yet. Like I said earlier, there's more to come out in the wash but nothing will justify shooting someone 7 times in the back. 7 times in 2 rapid bursts.

As for your list of points I think we can agree on 1.-4., point 5. I'm not too sure about.

I appreciate all of the racial issues America has but my biggest personal bugbear with Americans is their insistence on the right to bear arms.

This will go against the grain here, but I think I agree with point 5.

As a white Scot, I’d fully expect to be shot dead in America if I did what this guy did. I don’t think it’s right, but I think it’s where they are.

Questions might reasonably be asked about why he felt he couldn’t comply with police orders, and there are enough examples of compliance and relative compliance ending in tragedy.

On the face of it, a black man being shot in these circumstances will end up with questions being asked. I don’t know if this individual incident has any hallmarks of being racially aggravated, whilst ignoring the wider context of what is going on in the USA right now.

[JeMeSouviens]

Your right it doesn't, but not every shooting of black people by police in America is based on Racism.

Indeed. So rather than arguing the toss over every individual shooting, it might be better to acknowledge the wider problem and try to fix it?

[Berwickhibby]

Now we're getting somewhere, at least we're now recognizing that some are.

I never ever suggested that there has'nt been, American police history is littered with Raciest attacks and poor unsavoury behaviour. However it appears (especially in the press) nthat every action or interaction a police officer has with a member of the black community is raciest. Which imho is b ollock s

[JeMeSouviens]

Is that statistically speaking again ?

As you seem to know all the stats can we please see them

Google not working for you? Let me assist:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

[MKHIBEE]

The training doesn't dictate shooting black men. Otherwise i doubt there would be any black police officers. Why is the shooting of a black man by police deemed racist. White men are shot as well.
You have any cases of unarmed white men being shot 7 times in the back.? Or white men having a police knee on their necks long enough to kill them? Why are you so against the idea that some police may be racist enough to want to kill black people?

[Hibrandenburg]

I appreciate all of the racial issues America has but my biggest personal bugbear with Americans is their insistence on the right to bear arms.

This will go against the grain here, but I think I agree with point 5.

As a white Scot, I’d fully expect to be shot dead in America if I did what this guy did. I don’t think it’s right, but I think it’s where they are.

Questions might reasonably be asked about why he felt he couldn’t comply with police orders, and there are enough examples of compliance and relative compliance ending in tragedy.

On the face of it, a black man being shot in these circumstances will end up with questions being asked. I don’t know if this individual incident has any hallmarks of being racially aggravated, whilst ignoring the wider context of what is going on in the USA right now.

As a white Scot you have little reason to not comply with gun wielding cops, as a black man you have, no matter if your fears are justified or not.

I said I'm not sure about point 5. because I genuinely don't know, but as mentioned the situation would unlikely escalate to non compliance in the first place.

[silverhibee]

Two people shot dead as gunman opens fire on looters, looks like a young white lad with a high powered rifle.

[Berwickhibby]

Two people shot dead as gunman opens fire on looters, looks like a young white lad with a high powered rifle.

Yanks and their right to bear arms = stupidity and death

[neil7908]

Two people shot dead as gunman opens fire on looters, looks like a young white lad with a high powered rifle.

I await Trump and his fans talking about law and order, chaos on the streets etc. I suspect they will be much less vocal on this incident.

[One Day Soon]

I await Trump and his fans talking about law and order, chaos on the streets etc. I suspect they will be much less vocal on this incident.

They want this. It fuels culture wars and that works for them electorally. It drives centre ground voters to support illiberal and extreme positions.

[silverhibee]

I await Trump and his fans talking about law and order, chaos on the streets etc. I suspect they will be much less vocal on this incident.

Just seen the video, seemingly 17 year old was protecting property that was being looted and fired his gun, was then chased by protesters and was brought to the ground, he turns round and just starts shooting anyone close to him, everyone runs away apart from one person on ground, the young lad then gets up and just walks down the middle of the street towards the police where police just drive past him and is eventually stopped by police but must have been released straight away, reports say the police were thanking him on the good job he had done, would seem a number of folk were heavily armed protecting themselves.

Young lad linked to Blue Lives Matter.

[Smartie]

Just seen the video, seemingly 17 year old was protecting property that was being looted and fired his gun, was then chased by protesters and was brought to the ground, he turns round and just starts shooting anyone close to him, everyone runs away apart from one person on ground, the young lad then gets up and just walks down the middle of the street towards the police where police just drive past him and is eventually stopped by police but must have been released straight away, reports say the police were thanking him on the good job he had done, would seem a number of folk were heavily armed protecting themselves.

Young lad linked to Blue Lives Matter.

It's time to brace ourselves for Trump's inappropriate words in response, and the reaction that they will undoubtedly bring about...

[Mon Dieu4]

Just seen the video, seemingly 17 year old was protecting property that was being looted and fired his gun, was then chased by protesters and was brought to the ground, he turns round and just starts shooting anyone close to him, everyone runs away apart from one person on ground, the young lad then gets up and just walks down the middle of the street towards the police where police just drive past him and is eventually stopped by police but must have been released straight away, reports say the police were thanking him on the good job he had done, would seem a number of folk were heavily armed protecting themselves.

Young lad linked to Blue Lives Matter.

No old enough to buy a pint but perfectly acceptable to own an assault rifle, no wonder the place is ****ed

[Keith_M]

The ongoing rioting and burning down shops is really helpful.


:rolleyes:

[IvanSproule]

As I have already said if I was a trained Police officer dealing with a guy with a record and a history of violence I would have restrained him before he got to the car or had the opportunity to reach for or get to any potential concealed weapon. There was ample opportunity to do so. I am not a cop but have worked in an environment where the reputation and potential for a person to be violent has meant that along with my colleagues we have restrained them before they had any opportunity, admittedly mostly the threat of knives and not firearms in my experience but that is immaterial. I have been trained in arrest and restraint, twenty odd years ago but I still recall many a potential threatening situation that we dealt with. And to add we never carried any weapons or devices to defend ourselves.

It's not immaterial. U.S police have to keep something in mind that U.K police dont, that every physical confrontation has to be treated as a fight for a firearm. They cant risk being knocked unconscious.

From what i've seen of this latest shooting, (im assuming the same ~20second video everyone else has) the lack of any attempt to use non-lethal force coupled with the cop emptying his gun on Jacob Blake is surely excessive force/ unlawful. However that needs to be determined in a courtroom not on the streets, there is undoubtedly information we don't know yet.

I wish there was more messaging about complying with police even if you disagree with them. All of these high-profile killings we are seeing involve resisting arrest. The place to get mad and get even against unlawful arrests is in the police station with a lawyer next to you.

[IvanSproule]

Google not working for you? Let me assist:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

That doesn't take into account that black people in the U.S are more likely to commit crime and therefor have more police interactions per capita.

You may well argue (as I would) that a reason for that increased likelyhood of crime is legacy racism, but it is not evidence that U.S police are more likely to shoot a black person than they are a white person. In fact there are statistics that show the opposite may well be true.

This is an excellent podcast that tries to disect the issue if anyone has 2 hours to kill.
https://samharris.org/podcasts/207-can-pull-back-brink/

[Scouse Hibee]

It's not immaterial. U.S police have to keep something in mind that U.K police dont, that every physical confrontation has to be treated as a fight for a firearm. They cant risk being knocked unconscious.

From what i've seen of this latest shooting, (im assuming the same ~20second video everyone else has) the lack of any attempt to use non-lethal force coupled with the cop emptying his gun on Jacob Blake is surely excessive force/ unlawful. However that needs to be determined in a courtroom not on the streets, there is undoubtedly information we don't know yet.

I wish there was more messaging about complying with police even if you disagree with them. All of these high-profile killings we are seeing involve resisting arrest. The place to get mad and get even against unlawful arrests is in the police station with a lawyer next to you.

It was immaterial as I was speaking of my own experiences so as to put it into context. Also criminals in the U.K. also carry firearms, you do realise that surely, the bigger difference is UK cops can’t just draw a routinely carried firearm and shoot anyone that resists them.

[IvanSproule]

It was immaterial as I was speaking of my own experiences so as to put it into context. Also criminals in the U.K. also carry firearms, you do realise that surely, the bigger difference is UK cops can’t just draw a routinely carried firearm and shoot anyone that resists them.

Yup apologies I just re-read your post and I didn't pick that up first time.

I understand that criminals in the UK can carry firearms, the point I was making was that for U.S police EVERY physical confrontation is a fight for a firearm, the cop's firearm.

[Scouse Hibee]

Yup apologies I just re-read your post and I didn't pick that up first time.

I understand that criminals in the UK can carry firearms, the point I was making was that for U.S police EVERY physical confrontation is a fight for a firearm, the cop's firearm.

I get your point and would tend to agree that the risk is higher with a one on one confrontation with an armed officer who could possibly be relieved of his firearm. However in this latest instance, there was more than one cop and I’m pretty sure with their training they should have been able to confront and restrain the guy with minimum fuss. Two guys who know what they are doing can take down the biggest and meanest of them in my experience yet in this case they didn’t seem to try too hard to stop him reaching his vehicle and posing an alleged threat by reaching inside the car.

[IvanSproule]

I get your point and would tend to agree that the risk is higher with a one on one confrontation with an armed officer who could possibly be relieved of his firearm. However in this latest instance, there was more than one cop and I’m pretty sure with their training they should have been able to confront and restrain the guy with minimum fuss. Two guys who know what they are doing can take down the biggest and meanest of them in my experience yet in this case they didn’t seem to try too hard to stop him reaching his vehicle and posing an alleged threat by reaching inside the car.

Totally agree, from the video we have all seen this was surely excessive force/ unlawful.
However there is undoubtedly pertinent information that we can't be aware of from a 20 second video shot 100 yards away.

[neil7908]

The ongoing rioting and burning down shops is really helpful.


:rolleyes:

The ongoing police shooting of unarmed black people is also really helpful.

Clearly looting is wrong, I'm happy to condemn that. I'm not sure though why your primary concern is looting when you have a black man shot in the back 7 times by police, and 2 protestors murdered?

[Scouse Hibee]

The ongoing police shooting of unarmed black people is also really helpful.

Clearly looting is wrong, I'm happy to condemn that. I'm not sure though why your primary concern is looting when you have a black man shot in the back 7 times by police, and 2 protestors murdered?

I missed the bit where he said looting was his primary concern, outrageous he should be ashamed.

[neil7908]

I missed the bit where he said looting was his primary concern, outrageous he should be ashamed.

Well his only post on the topic was looting. So pretty obvious that is where priorities lie. A guy is paralysed and two people are dead. But yest looting is the main problem to focus on 🙄🙄

[Scouse Hibee]

Well his only post on the topic was looting. So pretty obvious that is where priorities lie. A guy is paralysed and two people are dead. But yest looting is the main problem to focus on 🙄🙄

Assumptions eh, how wrong they can be. Plenty of evidence of that in this most recent incident too.

[-Jonesy-]

https://twitter.com/bad_takes/status/1298774196026322946?s=21

That’s right wing white supremacist mouthpiece and all around living bag of **** Tucker Carlson justifying a 17 year old without license to carry a firearm travelling across state lines to commit a double murder

[wpj]

Shocking
https://twitter.com/kirkacevedo/status/1298616591328804865?s=09

[Hibrandenburg]

Shocking
https://twitter.com/kirkacevedo/status/1298616591328804865?s=09

I guess we now have our answer to the question regarding do white men have to be worried about being shot by the police. He's just shot 3 people, is still toting the murder weapon and the first police vehicles don't even recognise him as a threat.

[Bristolhibby]

I appreciate all of the racial issues America has but my biggest personal bugbear with Americans is their insistence on the right to bear arms.

This will go against the grain here, but I think I agree with point 5.

As a white Scot, I’d fully expect to be shot dead in America if I did what this guy did. I don’t think it’s right, but I think it’s where they are.

Questions might reasonably be asked about why he felt he couldn’t comply with police orders, and there are enough examples of compliance and relative compliance ending in tragedy.

On the face of it, a black man being shot in these circumstances will end up with questions being asked. I don’t know if this individual incident has any hallmarks of being racially aggravated, whilst ignoring the wider context of what is going on in the USA right now.

There’s a social pact with Policing. The minute one community feels that the Police are boot boys who stomp first ask questions later you will get non compliance.

Which is why there is a drive in the U.K. to get Police that are reflective of the community they “protect and serve”.

J

[Scouse Hibee]

I guess we now have our answer to the question regarding do white men have to be worried about being shot by the police. He's just shot 3 people, is still toting the murder weapon and the first police vehicles don't even recognise him as a threat.

Unbelievable eh? It makes the “he might have been reaching for a weapon”brigade look even more ridiculous when trying to justify why the guy at his car was shot seven times.

[matty_f]

I guess we now have our answer to the question regarding do white men have to be worried about being shot by the police. He's just shot 3 people, is still toting the murder weapon and the first police vehicles don't even recognise him as a threat.

As good a way to illustrate the point as you're likely to get.


It's not ok for police to just shoot people regardless if there's a perceived threat. You can't have a law system where the police are allowed to be judge, jury and executioner.

[makaveli1875]

There’s a social pact with Policing. The minute one community feels that the Police are boot boys who stomp first ask questions later you will get non compliance.

Which is why there is a drive in the U.K. to get Police that are reflective of the community they “protect and serve”.

J

They need to look at something like that in America, I don't think Scotland really needs to go down that road.

[hibsbollah]

MLS games and basketball playoff games now cancelled in player boycott. I’ve been watching the Fox News coverage and it’s just pure White Backlash. The gap between two America’s is just getting bigger and bigger.

[Hibrandenburg]

They need to look at something like that in America, I don't think Scotland really needs to go down that road.

You might be disappointed to find that Scotland already has.

https://www.scotland.police.uk/recruitment/diversity/

[Sergio sledge]

So if you were a trained police officer in that situation and it played out exactly as it did in the video would you have waited to see what he pulled out the car..

They are not trained though, that's part of the problem.

It's a few years old, but it is shocking how little training in de-escalation a lot of police officers in America are given.

https://www.apmreports.org/story/2017/05/05/police-de-escalation-training

Throw into the mix race, a recent history of racial segregation which still lingers to this day, extreme poverty (and the ingrained American belief that if you are poor you are not working hard enough), the rampant gun culture, excessive criminalisation, excessive incarceration rates, extremely varied educational standards (and the lingering effect of racial segregation on the educational system) and you have a "perfect" storm of issues which all contribute to the situation you have now in the USA.

Do I support looting and rioting? No, but I can completely understand why it is happening in this situation and why, after years and years of peaceful protests which elicited no response or an angry response (Colin Kaepernick), people have decided different action is needed.

Leadership is needed to de-escalate the situation and then work on ways to solve the issues. This leadership has to come from the top and sadly the guy at the top seems intent on escalating things by flexing his muscles and sending in heavily armed forces to try to stop what's going on in these cities.

Violence has never been a long term solution to systemic problems and throwing the army and more guns at the problem might supress it for now but it won't solve the issues. Real change only comes from dialogue, education and action to implement cultural change.

Sadly I can't see that sort of thing happening under the republican party when they had speaking at their conference the guy and his wife who were waving their guns at BLM protestors who were walking down their street, how is waving your gun at someone going to de-escalate the situation and how is one of the two main political parties lauding them as some sort of heroes going to help anyone?

Forgetting the racial inequality that exists in the USA for one second and simply looking at the police, I feel for the ordinary police officer in America, they are not all racist, and I'm sure a significant proportion of them are as horrified by what they see other officers doing as we are. But they are all being sent out into an extremely scary situation (facing a high likelihood of guns being involved in most situations) with poor training.

Lower the likelihood of guns being present by introducing gun controls, give officers more training in non-violet de-escalation, give officers more training in how to deal with mental illness and police officers may not react in the way we are seeing when someone is non-compliant.

[Moulin Yarns]

Now that it's being reported that the police found a knife in the car, is it feasible that Jacob was putting it there so that he WASN'T carrying it when he was arrested?

[Hibrandenburg]

They are not trained though, that's part of the problem.

It's a few years old, but it is shocking how little training in de-escalation a lot of police officers in America are given.

https://www.apmreports.org/story/2017/05/05/police-de-escalation-training

Throw into the mix race, a recent history of racial segregation which still lingers to this day, extreme poverty (and the ingrained American belief that if you are poor you are not working hard enough), the rampant gun culture, excessive criminalisation, excessive incarceration rates, extremely varied educational standards (and the lingering effect of racial segregation on the educational system) and you have a "perfect" storm of issues which all contribute to the situation you have now in the USA.

Do I support looting and rioting? No, but I can completely understand why it is happening in this situation and why, after years and years of peaceful protests which elicited no response or an angry response (Colin Kaepernick), people have decided different action is needed.

Leadership is needed to de-escalate the system and then work on ways to solve the issues. This leadership has to come from the top and sadly the guy at the top seems intent on escalating things by flexing his muscles and sending in heavily armed forces to try to stop what's going on in these cities.

Violence has never been a long term solution to systemic problems and throwing the army and more guns at the problem might supress it for now but it won't solve the issues. Real change only comes from dialogue, education and action to implement cultural change.

Sadly I can't see that sort of thing happening under the republican party when they had speaking at their conference the guy and his wife who were waving their guns at BLM protestors who were walking down their street, how is waving your gun at someone going to de-escalate the situation and how is one of the two main political parties lauding them as some sort of heroes going to help anyone?

Forgetting the racial inequality that exists in the USA for one second and simply looking at the police, I feel for the ordinary police officer in America, they are not all racist, and I'm sure a significant proportion of them are as horrified by what they see other officers doing as we are. But they are all being sent out into an extremely scary situation (facing a high likelihood of guns being involved in most situations) with poor training.

Lower the likelihood of guns being present by introducing gun controls, give officers more training in non-violet de-escalation, give officers more training in how to deal with mental illness and police officers may not react in the way we are seeing when someone is non-compliant.

Great post

[makaveli1875]

You might be disappointed to find that Scotland already has.

https://www.scotland.police.uk/recruitment/diversity/

That's not what I meant at all so not dissapointed.

[Bristolhibby]

That's not what I meant at all so not dissapointed.

Pretty sure it’s what I meant. If a population is 10% black, then it goes to stand that about 10% of Police officers should be black.

If 5% of the population are Muslim, there should be about 5% Muslim police officers.

10% Gay - 10% gay police

50% Women - 50% of Police should be women.

J

[Scouse Hibee]

Pretty sure it’s what I meant. If a population is 10% black, then it goes to stand that about 10% of Police officers should be black.

If 5% of the population are Muslim, there should be about 5% Muslim police officers.

10% Gay - 10% gay police

50% Women - 50% of Police should be women.

J

What about the other genders 😉

[Berwickhibby]

Pretty sure it’s what I meant. If a population is 10% black, then it goes to stand that about 10% of Police officers should be black.

If 5% of the population are Muslim, there should be about 5% Muslim police officers.

10% Gay - 10% gay police

50% Women - 50% of Police should be women.

J

Why??..... surely it should be the best candidate to do the job....I could not care if the Police service was 100% Black officers providing they were the best.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why??..... surely it should be the best candidate to do the job....I could not care if the Police service was 100% Black officers providing they were the best.

Because it's about how the public perceive the police. Policing only works if the public they serve feel represented by them, if they perceive they represent other communities and not theirs, then issues of trust are inevitable.

[Moulin Yarns]

Because it's about how the public perceive the police. Policing only works if the public they serve feel represented by them, if they perceive they represent other communities and not theirs, then issues of trust are inevitable.

I wonder if all the police in Kelty are Fifers? 🤔

[Keith_M]

The ongoing police shooting of unarmed black people is also really helpful.

Clearly looting is wrong, I'm happy to condemn that. I'm not sure though why your primary concern is looting when you have a black man shot in the back 7 times by police, and 2 protestors murdered?


It seems to be a common response now to read things into other people's posts.

:rolleyes:


FYI: I posted on a subject that was ongoing on the news at the time... before I read about the shooting. Others have covered the shooting in myriad posts since then (mostly in an argumentative way that I saw no point in adding to).

[neil7908]

Why??..... surely it should be the best candidate to do the job....I could not care if the Police service was 100% Black officers providing they were the best.

The police, more than any organisation, should look like the people they are supposed to be protecting. That is the only way they will gain the trust and support of large swathes of the country.

We know what happens when the selection is just "best for the job". We've had that for years and it means white men hiring white men. And then organisations take on the values of the people that make them up.

That's doesn’t mean all white men are racist, but that they may not be best placed to decide on policing tactics for every part of the UK.

I don't personally believe that the numbers need to be exact but that they should be strongly pushed to recruit a force that represents the country.

[lord bunberry]

Have they heard of non lethal force in America? Surely things like tasers would be a better option.

[Berwickhibby]

The police, more than any organisation, should look like the people they are supposed to be protecting. That is the only way they will gain the trust and support of large swathes of the country.

We know what happens when the selection is just "best for the job". We've had that for years and it means white men hiring white men. And then organisations take on the values of the people that make them up.

That's doesn’t mean all white men are racist, but that they may not be best placed to decide on policing tactics for every part of the UK.

I don't personally believe that the numbers need to be exact but that they should be strongly pushed to recruit a force that represents the country.

Are you suggesting discrimination by employing someone solely on their race or colour to fill numbers

[lord bunberry]

Are you suggesting discrimination by employing someone solely on their race or colour to fill numbers
That already happens, it’s called positive discrimination.

[Hibrandenburg]

Are you suggesting discrimination by employing someone solely on their race or colour to fill numbers

Ah, the old positive discrimination chestnut. No, I can't speak for Neil but I think we might be suggesting fair representation of the general public within the police force.

[Berwickhibby]

Ah, the old positive discrimination chestnut. No, I can't speak for Neil but I think we might be suggesting fair representation of the general public within the police force.

Who mentioned positive discrimination...not me

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you suggesting discrimination by employing someone solely on their race or colour to fill numbers

Otherwise known universally as positive discrimination. 🙄

[neil7908]

Are you suggesting discrimination by employing someone solely on their race or colour to fill numbers

Not exactly, as I've said in my last sentence "I don't personally believe that the numbers need to be exact but that they should be strongly pushed to recruit a force that represents the country".

The best person for the job doesn't work as well when it's only white middle aged men making a decision on who's best. And who also set the requirements for the job.

[Berwickhibby]

Not exactly, as I've said in my last sentence "I don't personally believe that the numbers need to be exact but that they should be strongly pushed to recruit a force that represents the country".

The best person for the job doesn't work as well when it's only white middle aged men making a decision on who's best. And who also set the requirements for the job.

From my own experience that's not been true in police recruitment in the Met since the mid 90s entrance boards normally consist of Human Resources officer (civilian) 2 Chief Inspectors one male one female. Also one member must be BAME.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not exactly, as I've said in my last sentence "I don't personally believe that the numbers need to be exact but that they should be strongly pushed to recruit a force that represents the country".

The best person for the job doesn't work as well when it's only white middle aged men making a decision on who's best. And who also set the requirements for the job.

I experienced the other side of this where the recruitment policy was to employ people who could be 'controlled' and staff were not allowed to be honest about their feelings. Turnover of female staff over a period of 3 or 4 years was astonishing. Yes, white middle aged men.

[Berwickhibby]

My final point is that the most important people Police deal with are victims and from my experience i have never had a victim say to me or any officer, you cannot deal with my problem or investigate the crime that has been committed because you are white, black, Asian, female, gay or whatever. They see a uniform and someone who is trying to help.

[Hibrandenburg]

My final point is that the most important people Police deal with are victims and from my experience i have never had a victim say to me or any officer, you cannot deal with my problem or investigate the crime that has been committed because you are white, black, Asian, female, gay or whatever. They see a uniform and someone who is trying to help.

Surely for example, an ethnic witness is more likely to give pertinent information to an ethnic cop, especially if that cop comes from the community concerned and even better speaks the ethnic language and understands the culture?

[Berwickhibby]

Surely for example, an ethnic witness is more likely to give pertinent information to an ethnic cop, especially if that cop comes from the community concerned and even better speaks the ethnic language and understands the culture?

You might think that but again from my experience working in London is not the case, Black and Asian officer recieved more abuse from their own race than white officers.

[Moulin Yarns]

You might think that but again from my experience working in London is not the case, Black and Asian officer recieved more abuse from their own race than white officers.

Because they are seen as, for want of a better word, traitors perhaps?

[silverhibee]

I guess we now have our answer to the question regarding do white men have to be worried about being shot by the police. He's just shot 3 people, is still toting the murder weapon and the first police vehicles don't even recognise him as a threat.

They didn't even detain him, the police later on arrested him at his home.

[Bristolhibby]

Are you suggesting discrimination by employing someone solely on their race or colour to fill numbers

We don’t even get enough black and Asian people APPLYING to join the Police. That’s a problem.

Especially when certain towns and cities the ethnic mix might be much higher then the arbitrary 10% I plucked from the air.

J

[Bristolhibby]

You might think that but again from my experience working in London is not the case, Black and Asian officer recieved more abuse from their own race than white officers.

It’s a slow process mate.

Imagine being the first black person at a College in Alabama in the 60s.

Compare that to now, then hopefully compare it in 50 years time.

J

[Berwickhibby]

It’s a slow process mate.

Imagine being the first black person at a College in Alabama in the 60s.

Compare that to now, then hopefully compare it in 50 years time.

J

Agreed, I just commented with my own experience

[Moulin Yarns]

They didn't even detain him, the police later on arrested him at his home.

https://twitter.com/crimethinc/status/1298695207744155649?s=19

Jesus wept, some Republicans want the boy to be POTUS.

[Mon Dieu4]

Not exactly, as I've said in my last sentence "I don't personally believe that the numbers need to be exact but that they should be strongly pushed to recruit a force that represents the country".

The best person for the job doesn't work as well when it's only white middle aged men making a decision on who's best. And who also set the requirements for the job.

A study found that 72% of people who work in HR departments are women, doesn't really suit the white middle aged men are making all the decisions viewpoint though, especially when we live in a country with a female head of state, a female first minister and a female who runs the club we all support, they are all white though :wink:

[Keith_M]

A study found that 72% of people who work in HR departments are women, doesn't really suit the white middle aged men are making all the decisions viewpoint though, especially when we live in a country with a female head of state, a female first minister and a female who runs the club we all support, they are all white though :wink:



Please don't ruin their arguments. They're enjoying having a good old rant.


:wink:

[Berwickhibby]

Please don't ruin their arguments. They're enjoying having a good old rant.


:wink:

:greengrin :greengrin really need to put Facebook style likes and smilies on this site

[Keith_M]

:greengrin :greengrin really need to put Facebook style likes and smilies on this site


I don't want a comment of mine 'liked' by a copper!


That would ruin my reputation.


:na na:

[Moulin Yarns]

A study found that 72% of people who work in HR departments are women, doesn't really suit the white middle aged men are making all the decisions viewpoint though, especially when we live in a country with a female head of state, a female first minister and a female who runs the club we all support, they are all white though :wink:



Is that not just the typing pool? 😉

[Berwickhibby]

I don't want a comment of mine 'liked' by a copper!


That would ruin my reputation.


:na na:

Retired copper ... get it right lol 😝😝😂

[Keith_M]

Is that not just the typing pool? ��



Secretary! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tPTeYuBT_s)

(start from about 4:00)


:wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Secretary! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tPTeYuBT_s)

(start from about 4:00)


:wink:


🤣

[AT8]

There's a lot of talk about "police reform" (much of it merited) but no-one ever mentions the need for "civilian reform". Let's face it, society is going down the pan at an alarming rate where things we used to take for granted, such as common courtesy and respect are slowly becoming a thing of the past.

Could the police do a better job when dealing with minorities? Yes, but I stand by the point I've made numerous times before that the best way to avoid having negative interactions with law enforcement is to refrain from engaging in criminal activity.

[lapsedhibee]

Let's face it, society is going down the pan at an alarming rate where things we used to take for granted, such as common courtesy and respect are slowly becoming a thing of the past.

You've probably seen this before, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA

[Keith_M]

And the thread is now back on track!



:offski:

[AT8]

You've probably seen this before, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA

I have seen it before, thanks. I'm as appalled by it now as I was when I first saw it.

[Moulin Yarns]

There's a lot of talk about "police reform" (much of it merited) but no-one ever mentions the need for "civilian reform". Let's face it, society is going down the pan at an alarming rate where things we used to take for granted, such as common courtesy and respect are slowly becoming a thing of the past.

Could the police do a better job when dealing with minorities? Yes, but I stand by the point I've made numerous times before that the best way to avoid having negative interactions with law enforcement is to refrain from engaging in criminal activity.


https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/27/us/kenosha-wisconsin-shooting-suspect/index.html

What a great idea, pity this prick didn't heed your advice. Amazing the type of people attracted to the police.

[IvanSproule]

They are not trained though, that's part of the problem.

It's a few years old, but it is shocking how little training in de-escalation a lot of police officers in America are given.

https://www.apmreports.org/story/2017/05/05/police-de-escalation-training

Throw into the mix race, a recent history of racial segregation which still lingers to this day, extreme poverty (and the ingrained American belief that if you are poor you are not working hard enough), the rampant gun culture, excessive criminalisation, excessive incarceration rates, extremely varied educational standards (and the lingering effect of racial segregation on the educational system) and you have a "perfect" storm of issues which all contribute to the situation you have now in the USA.

Do I support looting and rioting? No, but I can completely understand why it is happening in this situation and why, after years and years of peaceful protests which elicited no response or an angry response (Colin Kaepernick), people have decided different action is needed.

Leadership is needed to de-escalate the situation and then work on ways to solve the issues. This leadership has to come from the top and sadly the guy at the top seems intent on escalating things by flexing his muscles and sending in heavily armed forces to try to stop what's going on in these cities.

Violence has never been a long term solution to systemic problems and throwing the army and more guns at the problem might supress it for now but it won't solve the issues. Real change only comes from dialogue, education and action to implement cultural change.

Sadly I can't see that sort of thing happening under the republican party when they had speaking at their conference the guy and his wife who were waving their guns at BLM protestors who were walking down their street, how is waving your gun at someone going to de-escalate the situation and how is one of the two main political parties lauding them as some sort of heroes going to help anyone?

Forgetting the racial inequality that exists in the USA for one second and simply looking at the police, I feel for the ordinary police officer in America, they are not all racist, and I'm sure a significant proportion of them are as horrified by what they see other officers doing as we are. But they are all being sent out into an extremely scary situation (facing a high likelihood of guns being involved in most situations) with poor training.

Lower the likelihood of guns being present by introducing gun controls, give officers more training in non-violet de-escalation, give officers more training in how to deal with mental illness and police officers may not react in the way we are seeing when someone is non-compliant.


Outstanding post.

[IvanSproule]

Now that it's being reported that the police found a knife in the car, is it feasible that Jacob was putting it there so that he WASN'T carrying it when he was arrested?

Of course it's feasible.
Just another reason for everyone to remember that we don't know half of the pertinent facts in any case just from a video we see. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it, but be careful not to think that what you think you saw was in fact what happened. Or rather the entirety of what happened.

There are 100 variables that could make this a lawful killing, and 100 variables that could make it murder.

[lapsedhibee]

Of course it's feasible.
Just another reason for everyone to remember that we don't know half of the pertinent facts in any case just from a video we see. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it, but be careful not to think that what you think you saw was in fact what happened. Or rather the entirety of what happened.

There are 100 variables that could make this a lawful killing, and 100 variables that could make it murder.

Doubt it.

[AT8]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/27/us/kenosha-wisconsin-shooting-suspect/index.html

What a great idea, pity this prick didn't heed your advice. Amazing the type of people attracted to the police.

FFS. What's your point caller? When I suggested "civilian reform", I didn't say it was only certain parts of society that needs reform. Every race, color and creed has its share of a******s that need to get in line and behave like decent human beings.

[Moulin Yarns]

FFS. What's your point caller? When I suggested "civilian reform", I didn't say it was only certain parts of society that needs reform. Every race, color and creed has its share of a******s that need to get in line and behave like decent human beings.

Even people who want to join the wonderful police???

[IvanSproule]

Doubt it.

Doubt what?

[lapsedhibee]

Doubt what?
There are 100 variables that could make this a lawful killing, and 100 variables that could make it murder.

[IvanSproule]

There are 100 variables that could make this a lawful killing, and 100 variables that could make it murder.

Oh, ok.

Nah i stand by that. Sure you could think of a couple examples for both in about 30 seconds.

[lapsedhibee]

Oh, ok.

Nah i stand by that. Sure you could think of a couple examples for both in about 30 seconds.

There is absolutely no chance that a verdict of lawful killing will ensue. No chance whatsoever.

[Scouse Hibee]

Oh, ok.

Nah i stand by that. Sure you could think of a couple examples for both in about 30 seconds.

No way on this earth could that ever be justified as a lawful killing, they shot an unarmed man seven times in the back FFS!

[Berwickhibby]

There is absolutely no chance that a verdict of lawful killing will ensue. No chance whatsoever.

It’s America.... nothing would surprise me

[lapsedhibee]

It’s America.... nothing would surprise me

Nope, won't happen.

[IvanSproule]

There is absolutely no chance that a verdict of lawful killing will ensue. No chance whatsoever.

I just don't know how you can be so sure of that given that ( I assume) all you have seen of the incident is a 20second video shot 100 yards away?

You don't know what was said or done before or after the video. For example Blake may have claimed to be armed, leading to the officers' reluctance to restrain him before using lethal force. Likewise it could emerge that these cops were rampant racists actively looking to kill a black man.

In short you and I don't know jack about the full circumstances, I just think that is an important thing to keep in the back of your mind and an important lense to view these incidents through.

A court of law is the only place to ascertain concrete truth.

[IvanSproule]

No way on this earth could that ever be justified as a lawful killing, they shot an unarmed man seven times in the back FFS!

I understand that and based on what we have seen of the incident then it was surely a criminal act.

I also just realised that i'm talking about a police killing when Jacob Blake is in fact thankfully still alive, I apologise for that.

The point i'm making is when we see these little snippets of incidents we should be aware of how little we know about the full circumstances, and while discussion of them is good, judgement before due process is not.

[Scouse Hibee]

I understand that and based on what we have seen of the incident then it was surely a criminal act.

I also just realised that i'm talking about a police killing when Jacob Blake is in fact thankfully still alive, I apologise for that.

The point i'm making is when we see these little snippets of incidents we should be aware of how little we know about the full circumstances, and while discussion of them is good, judgement before due process is not.

No need to apologise as I too caught in the moment had it in my mind as a killing when of course I know that he is still alive. I accept what you are saying about our limited knowledge of the incident aside from the short video and of course you are correct that all is not always what it seems. However I just can’t see how a justification for this act could ever be achieved, time and a court of law will tell though so I will wait for that.

[EAZY-ME]

I came across a video of the 17 year old that shot the protesters. In the video you can see that the guy he shot in the stomach has a gun in his hand and was pointing it towards the 17 year old. I managed to get a screen shot of the gun in hand but can't upload it....... the other thing is the guys only 17 but surely there must be an age limit on buying or owning such dangerous weapons. Who let's their kids take something like that outside... just a recipe for disaster. 2 people needlessly killed and a kid potentially facing life without parole....... what a waste

[AT8]

I came across a video of the 17 year old that shot the protesters. In the video you can see that the guy he shot in the stomach has a gun in his hand and was pointing it towards the 17 year old. I managed to get a screen shot of the gun in hand but can't upload it....... the other thing is the guys only 17 but surely there must be an age limit on buying or owning such dangerous weapons. Who let's their kids take something like that outside... just a recipe for disaster. 2 people needlessly killed and a kid potentially facing life without parole....... what a waste

This guy was an absolute clown but from looking at the video evidence, he has a pretty good claim of self defense for the two killings and wounding the third guy (that doesn't make what he did right before someone comes on here saying I'm defending the guy).

He is however, guilty of being a minor in possession of a firearm and crossing State lines with a firearm, but I honestly don't know what the penalty for those charges would be.

[stoneyburn hibs]

This guy was an absolute clown but from looking at the video evidence, he has a pretty good claim of self defense for the two killings and wounding the third guy (that doesn't make what he did right before someone comes on here saying I'm defending the guy).

He is however, guilty of being a minor in possession of a firearm and crossing State lines with a firearm, but I honestly don't know what the penalty for those charges would be.

A pretty good case for self defence? Wtf
The guy wasn't even from the same state but chose to travel to Kenosha during a lockdown armed with a lethal weapon.

[AT8]

A pretty good case for self defence? Wtf
The guy wasn't even from the same state but chose to travel to Kenosha during a lockdown armed with a lethal weapon.

If you watch the videos, the guy that he shot in the head was lobbing a molotov cocktail at him. The second guy attacked him when he was on the ground with a skateboard and the guy whose arm he almost blew off was coming at him with a handgun. I know it sounds ridiculous, but in America, you can use lethal force to defend yourself.

It seems I need to insert a disclaimer into everything I post here, so for the record, I'm not defending the guy, I'm simply pointing out that he has a case for self defense.

[Just Alf]

If you watch the videos, the guy that he shot in the head was lobbing a molotov cocktail at him. The second guy attacked him when he was on the ground with a skateboard and the guy whose arm he almost blew off was coming at him with a handgun. I know it sounds ridiculous, but in America, you can use lethal force to defend yourself.

It seems I need to insert a disclaimer into everything I post here, so for the record, I'm not defending the guy, I'm simply pointing out that he has a case for self defense.I hear what you're saying, but part of the issue, and it's a massive part, why was he even there needing to defend himself in the 1st place? All he did was put himself in danger and raise tensions in the area.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[AT8]

I hear what you're saying, but part of the issue, and it's a massive part, why was he even there needing to defend himself in the 1st place? All he did was put himself in danger and raise tensions in the area.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I've already said that he's a clown and he is 100% guilty of being a minor in possession of a firearm and crossing State lines with a firearm. You're correct that he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[Just Alf]

I've already said that he's a clown and he is 100% guilty of being a minor in possession of a firearm and crossing State lines with a firearm. You're correct that he shouldn't have been there in the first place.:agree

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[EAZY-ME]

He shouldnt have been there but just before the shooting there's more footage of him being chased and someone actually throws a molotov cocktail at him

[Mon Dieu4]

The claim is that he travelled across state lines with an AR-15 to "defend" properties that were nothing to do with him, I think he travelled in the hope he would get to shoot someone and that eventually any provocation would have been acceptable to him, ****ing wee weirdo

[Moulin Yarns]

He shouldnt have been there but just before the shooting there's more footage of him being chased and someone actually throws a molotov cocktail at him

None of which could have happened had he been a law abiding citizen.

There are lots of social media photos of him posing with guns. And he was some kind of junior police cadet so obviously was thinking of a career in the police.

[AT8]

None of which could have happened had he been a law abiding citizen.

There are lots of social media photos of him posing with guns. And he was some kind of junior police cadet so obviously was thinking of a career in the police.

OK? What point are you trying to make here? We're all in agreement that the boy's an erse.

[Moulin Yarns]

OK? What point are you trying to make here? We're all in agreement that the boy's an erse.

If that's the type of person looking to be a police officer in America, neither wonder so many people get shot by them. I can only imagine the carnage he could unleash at his school if he was rejected by the police.

[EAZY-ME]

OK? What point are you trying to make here? We're all in agreement that the boy's an erse.

Precisely.... erse of the highest calibre:greengrin

[-Jonesy-]

Most of the internet now seems sure that no one threw a Molotov at him, it was simply a carrier bag with something in it.

He shot this person in the head and fled from a mob who tried to gang stomp him and he shot two more people killing one.

It then appears he stands up and fires 8 shots into the fleeing crowd before running at police with his hands up, who pass him by and move on to the site of the shooting And he was arrested at home hours later.

Whatever side of the fence your political bread is buttered on, America is an absolute disaster of a nation right now.
.

[EAZY-ME]

Most of the internet now seems sure that no one threw a Molotov at him, it was simply a carrier bag with something in it.

He shot this person in the head and fled from a mob who tried to gang stomp him and he shot two more people killing one.

It then appears he stands up and fires 8 shots into the fleeing crowd before running at police with his hands up, who pass him by and move on to the site of the shooting And he was arrested at home hours later.

Whatever side of the fence your political bread is buttered on, America is an absolute disaster of a nation right now.
.

The footage was on tik tok and it did look like a petrol bomb however the camera pans away quite quick and you can't see if it bursts into flame. He is then hit with a brick or bottle before being hit with a skateboard. The guy he shot does clearly point a gun at him.....a good defence team might prove self defence but carrying a high powered weapon through state lines and the fact he's only 17 is surely a felony

[AT8]

The footage was on tik tok and it did look like a petrol bomb however the camera pans away quite quick and you can't see if it bursts into flame. He is then hit with a brick or bottle before being hit with a skateboard. The guy he shot does clearly point a gun at him.....a good defence team might prove self defence but carrying a high powered weapon through state lines and the fact he's only 17 is surely a felony

It most certainly is.

[EAZY-ME]

Most of the internet now seems sure that no one threw a Molotov at him, it was simply a carrier bag with something in it.

He shot this person in the head and fled from a mob who tried to gang stomp him and he shot two more people killing one.

It then appears he stands up and fires 8 shots into the fleeing crowd before running at police with his hands up, who pass him by and move on to the site of the shooting And he was arrested at home hours later.

Whatever side of the fence your political bread is buttered on, America is an absolute disaster of a nation right now.
.

Yes you're correct i managed to pause the footage and it's defo a bag with something in it

[IvanSproule]

New York Times journalist Christian Treibert has made a timeline collating all the video and eyewitnesses from last night's shooting.

Here
https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298839097923063809

[NOLA]

The cop who shot Jacobs in the back? I’m sure he could have aimed for his legs but saw a nice big target and was overcome with bloodlust, shoot someone in the back 1 time I’m pretty confident they won’t be perceived to be a danger anymore but to fire another 6 bullets?? [emoji50]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mon Dieu4]

The cop who shot Jacobs in the back? I’m sure he could have aimed for his legs but saw a nice big target and was overcome with bloodlust, shoot someone in the back 1 time I’m pretty confident they won’t be perceived to be a danger anymore but to fire another 6 bullets?? [emoji50]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Police are trained to shoot the center mass of a body as there is more chance of hitting the target and not missing in a public place etc, shooting someone in the back that many times is an all together different story though

[Hibrandenburg]

Police are trained to shoot the center mass of a body as there is more chance of hitting the target and not missing in a public place etc, shooting someone in the back that many times is an all together different story though

If the police thought he had a knife (apparently that could be heard on the video) then all they had to do was step back 3 paces. They had weapons drawn and putting some distance between themselves and the knife would have nullified the threat of that knife. Unless of course Blake was a well known knife throwing ninja.

[Mon Dieu4]

If the police thought he had a knife (apparently that could be heard on the video) then all they had to do was step back 3 paces. They had weapons drawn and putting some distance between themselves and the knife would have nullified the threat of that knife. Unless of course Blake was a well known knife throwing ninja.

I agree, it should never have even got that far, with what looked to be 4 officers there he should have been huckled well before it even got to this stage, was purely referring to the mechanics of why police don't try and aim for limbs etc

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree, it should never have even got that far, with what looked to be 4 officers there he should have been huckled well before it even got to this stage, was purely referring to the mechanics of why police don't try and aim for limbs etc

:agree: It would appear that US de-escalation training comprises of drawing your weapon and shouting orders at people.

[Berwickhibby]

:agree: It would appear that US de-escalation training comprises of drawing your weapon and shouting orders at people.

No amount of de-escalation training was going to stop Blake returning to his car, old fashioned restraint, taken to the ground and cuffed was required.

[Moulin Yarns]

No amount of de-escalation training was going to stop Blake returning to his car, old fashioned restraint, taken to the ground and cuffed was required.

Maybe allow him to get back in his car and take his kids home, allow everyone to calm down and speak to him later?

Take eye witness accounts at the scene to assess the situation instead of going in all guns blazing. If Jacob had broken restrictions then he could be arrested under different calmer circumstances.

I realise Policing is different in the US to here, but de-escalation should and would have avoided the situation.

[Scouse Hibee]

No amount of de-escalation training was going to stop Blake returning to his car, old fashioned restraint, taken to the ground and cuffed was required.

Said this all along, simple or it should have been to a group of trained cops.

[Berwickhibby]

Maybe allow him to get back in his car and take his kids home, allow everyone to calm down and speak to him later?

Take eye witness accounts at the scene to assess the situation instead of going in all guns blazing. If Jacob had broken restrictions then he could be arrested under different calmer circumstances.

I realise Policing is different in the US to here, but de-escalation should and would have avoided the situation.

Not a chance, allow him into a vehicle with the possibility to mow police or members of the public down. I am not defending the police in the States they handled this incident appallingly. But you do not let a potentially armed man drive off after an alleged domestic violence call.

[Hibrandenburg]

No amount of de-escalation training was going to stop Blake returning to his car, old fashioned restraint, taken to the ground and cuffed was required.

Isn't old fashioned restraint (without kneeling on someone's neck for 8 minutes) a de-escalation from shooting someone in the back 7 times?

[Berwickhibby]

Isn't old fashioned restraint (without kneeling on someone's neck for 8 minutes) a de-escalation from shooting someone in the back 7 times?

De-escalation training is all about communication, Blake was not going to communicate or comply, he had already resisted a poor attempt to arrest him. The next step is to use physical restraint, which in law is an assault, to ensure legality, Home Office approved techniques are used. In the UK as soon as someone is cuffed he must be sat up to ensure that there is no positional asphyxiation. Unless the guidelines have changed using knees whilst cuffs are applied were considered acceptable. This whole incident should have been dealt with long before he got to his vehicle.

[Keith_M]

Isn't old fashioned restraint (without kneeling on someone's neck for 8 minutes) a de-escalation from shooting someone in the back 7 times?


I'd say so, yes.

Going by the number of similar cases reported recently, shooting people multiple times seems to be the default course of action for some Police Officers in the US.

I honestly don't know how they can live with themselves after doing something like that.

[EAZY-ME]

Apparently his go fund me page has clocked up nearly 2 million :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

Apparently his go fund me page has clocked up nearly 2 million :confused:

Blake?
Rittenhouse?
The Cop?

[neil7908]

Not a chance, allow him into a vehicle with the possibility to mow police or members of the public down. I am not defending the police in the States they handled this incident appallingly. But you do not let a potentially armed man drive off after an alleged domestic violence call.

What you say totally makes sense and I would agree completely. My trouble here is that clearly wasn't the case with the 17 year old accused of double murder. He literally killed two people and walked past police with a rifle. And they totally ignored him, even though witnesses to the killings were imploring the police to arrest him.

We have a black man who is shot 7 times in the back as he may be going for a weapon. But a white male who has clearly has a gun and actually killed 2 people is able to literally walk by police from the scene of the crime.

And people (not you I may add) suggest US police aren't racist.

[Hibrandenburg]

De-escalation training is all about communication, Blake was not going to communicate or comply, he had already resisted a poor attempt to arrest him. The next step is to use physical restraint, which in law is an assault, to ensure legality, Home Office approved techniques are used. In the UK as soon as someone is cuffed he must be sat up to ensure that there is no positional asphyxiation. Unless the guidelines have changed using knees whilst cuffs are applied were considered acceptable. This whole incident should have been dealt with long before he got to his vehicle.

De-escalation is about many things. Arriving at the scene in blues and two's with your hand on your gun and handcuffs at the ready isn't any of them. The mere arrival of the cops in the US would appear to signal an escalation in proceedings.

From my experience the arrival of the emergency services at a domestic incident normally preludes a cessation of hostilities at least on a temporary basis where all parties want to show they're the ones being reasonable. It's a crossroads that can then go either way depending on how the emergency services then react. If they've got their hands on their guns and handcuffs at the ready then there's a good chance that it can only go downhill from there.

De-escalation works, but only of it's implemented from the start. If the calvary arrive blowing trumpets at a charge, then the Indians are going to get nervous.

[hibsbollah]

Blake?
Rittenhouse?
The Cop?

I think he means Trumpie Bear. Yours with two payments of $19.95 and you get a certificate of authenticity too.

[PeeJay]

I wonder if people ever consider the situation from the PO's point-of-view? To me, it is never as black & white as many of you on here seem to be simply assuming?

Police officers, Edilmiro Garza and Ismael Chavez, were called to a domestic disturbance at a home on July 11,2020 - they were both shot dead after ringing the doorbell at the home in question ... their own guns were still holstered.
https://www.themonitor.com/2020/07/15/community-weeps-slain-mcallen-policemen-public-viewing/

"De-escalation" doesn't necessarily work either ... as this case shows

ANTHONY DIA - July 4, 2020
Police Officer Anthony Dia was shot and killed after responding to a disturbance at a Home Depot store at 1035 West Alexis Road at about 12:30 am.
A drunk subject had started to harass participants of an informal car show that was in the parking lot of the store. Officer Dia was the first officer on the scene and attempted to contact the subject. The man produced a handgun and opened fire, striking Officer Dia in the chest. Despite his wounds, Officer Dia was able to return fire as the man fled.

Seems to me that this is what these guys are up against a lot of the time, why they are "edgy": their lives are always on the line.

Preliminary figures looking at 32 police officer gun shot fatalities this year - think it averages out at 49 p.a.

[Berwickhibby]

What you say totally makes sense and I would agree completely. My trouble here is that clearly wasn't the case with the 17 year old accused of double murder. He literally killed two people and walked past police with a rifle. And they totally ignored him, even though witnesses to the killinags were imploring the police to arrest him.

We have a black man who is shot 7 times in the back as he may be going for a weapon. But a white male who has clearly has a gun and actually killed 2 people is able to literally walk by police from the scene of the crime.

And people (not you I may add) suggest US police aren't racist.

Agreed, another cluster****** by the American Police, he should have been arrested immediately, it appeared he was trying to give himself up

[Prof. Shaggy]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1298983030116110338

Some interesting points.

[lapsedhibee]

Preliminary figures looking at 32 police officer gun shot fatalities this year - think it averages out at 49 p.a.

That's obviously far too many, but isn't it still a smallish proportion of the total gunshot fatalities "involving law enforcement" - between five and six hundred, it says here (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/).

[Keith_M]

That's obviously far too many, but isn't it still a smallish proportion of the total gunshot fatalities "involving law enforcement" - between five and six hundred, it says here (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/).


I think he was just trying to illustrate what could be going through the minds of a police officer when faced with a situation like this.

To me, it just helps to highlight what actually happens when you allow practically everyone to own a gun.

[lapsedhibee]

I think he was just trying to illustrate what could be going through the minds of a police officer when faced with a situation like this.

To me, it just helps to highlight what actually happens when you allow practically everyone to own a gun.

Has Trump suggested yet that if all the children in the car had been armed then the polis might have backed off and tragedy averted?

[PeeJay]

That's obviously far too many, but isn't it still a smallish proportion of the total gunshot fatalities "involving law enforcement" - between five and six hundred, it says here (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/).

Absolutely too many - but, as far as I can see, less than roughly 3% of gun shot fatalities are attributable to the police - isn't there a bigger problem out there?

[lapsedhibee]

Absolutely too many - but, as far as I can see, less than roughly 3% of gun shot fatalities are attributable to the police - isn't there a bigger problem out there?

Absolut :agree:

[Berwickhibby]

Absolutely too many - but, as far as I can see, less than roughly 3% of gun shot fatalities are attributable to the police - isn't there a bigger problem out there?

Spot on, but every Yank I have met have the opinion "it's my goddam right to bear arms"

[Mon Dieu4]

I wonder if people ever consider the situation from the PO's point-of-view? To me, it is never as black & white as many of you on here seem to be simply assuming?

Police officers, Edilmiro Garza and Ismael Chavez, were called to a domestic disturbance at a home on July 11,2020 - they were both shot dead after ringing the doorbell at the home in question ... their own guns were still holstered.
https://www.themonitor.com/2020/07/15/community-weeps-slain-mcallen-policemen-public-viewing/

"De-escalation" doesn't necessarily work either ... as this case shows

ANTHONY DIA - July 4, 2020
Police Officer Anthony Dia was shot and killed after responding to a disturbance at a Home Depot store at 1035 West Alexis Road at about 12:30 am.
A drunk subject had started to harass participants of an informal car show that was in the parking lot of the store. Officer Dia was the first officer on the scene and attempted to contact the subject. The man produced a handgun and opened fire, striking Officer Dia in the chest. Despite his wounds, Officer Dia was able to return fire as the man fled.

Seems to me that this is what these guys are up against a lot of the time, why they are "edgy": their lives are always on the line.

Preliminary figures looking at 32 police officer gun shot fatalities this year - think it averages out at 49 p.a.

I completely get where you are coming from but that's why I think you should have complete psychological evaluations during the application process and ongoing when you are on the job, you can't really have people out there with the power of life and death who are "edgy" all the time, some people aren't cut out for it and with the amount of things they likely see on a daily basis there will be lots of them with PTSD and other mental health issues

[EAZY-ME]

Blake?
Rittenhouse?
The Cop?

Blake

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1298983030116110338

Some interesting points.

What a fantastically eloquent man, great watch, thanks for posting.

[Hibrandenburg]

To me, it just helps to highlight what actually happens when you allow practically everyone to own a gun.

To a certain extent this is true, but it can't be rolled out as a blanket excuse for all they shootings, strangulations and beatings we see almost on a weekly basis of black men. There's much more than just fear at work here.

[Hibrandenburg]

Blake

It won't get him far, but I suspect there's a fat check courtesy of the Wisconsin Police Department whizzing his way in the post. By god he'll need it being paralysed from the waist down and living with the American health system.

[Andy74]

What you say totally makes sense and I would agree completely. My trouble here is that clearly wasn't the case with the 17 year old accused of double murder. He literally killed two people and walked past police with a rifle. And they totally ignored him, even though witnesses to the killings were imploring the police to arrest him.

We have a black man who is shot 7 times in the back as he may be going for a weapon. But a white male who has clearly has a gun and actually killed 2 people is able to literally walk by police from the scene of the crime.

And people (not you I may add) suggest US police aren't racist.

Come on now. Video clips and all that don’t give full context.

Are folk seriously suggesting that the only defining factor in how two totally different incidents is the colour of skin involved?

Sorry but we’ll never get anywhere on all of this if anything that happens to a black persons is automatically due to racism.

[neil7908]

Come on now. Video clips and all that don’t give full context.

Are folk seriously suggesting that the only defining factor in how two totally different incidents is the colour of skin involved?

Sorry but we’ll never get anywhere on all of this if anything that happens to a black persons is automatically due to racism.

And equally we'll never get anywhere if people dismiss acts that are clearly racist.

Do you genuinely believe that if a black man had shot and killed 2 people he would be allowed to walk out of the crime scene, past cops, with the murder weapon displayed without being stopped?

[matty_f]

It’s fascinating the lengths folk will go to in order to justify the killing of someone. Like it’s a reasonable thing to do.

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s fascinating the lengths folk will go to in order to justify the killing of someone. Like it’s a reasonable thing to do.

I'm not sure if it's malicious, I think many can't see it because they're in denial.

[Andy74]

And equally we'll never get anywhere if people dismiss acts that are clearly racist.

Do you genuinely believe that if a black man had shot and killed 2 people he would be allowed to walk out of the crime scene, past cops, with the murder weapon displayed without being stopped?
I think it would be entirely down to the circumstances.

[Andy74]

I'm not sure if it's malicious, I think many can't see it because they're in denial.

Comments like this are just stupid.

I’m very aware of racism and equally the historical circumstances particularly in the US which means black people are more likely to continue to be disproportionally impacted by their interactions with police, however, you can’t just say that things that happen to black people are automatically racist. The context of each incident needs to be taken into account.

[beensaidbefore]

Maybe allow him to get back in his car and take his kids home, allow everyone to calm down and speak to him later?

Take eye witness accounts at the scene to assess the situation instead of going in all guns blazing. If Jacob had broken restrictions then he could be arrested under different calmer circumstances.

I realise Policing is different in the US to here, but de-escalation should and would have avoided the situation.


You have been a strong advocate throughout this thread for equal treatment and fairness, so I can't understand how yesterday you said when referring the 17 yo shooter, 'none of which would have happened had he been a law abiding citizen'. You seem to completely contradict that in you comments above. Surely the same logic should apply to your arguments regardless who is breaking the law? In this instance, had he followed instructions form police then the same locig should apply, no?

Not looking for an argument, but its seems daft to argue that there's a problem because people are being treated differently because of who they are then suggest treating people differently because of who they are.

[matty_f]

You have been a strong advocate throughout this thread for equal treatment and fairness, so I can't understand how yesterday you said when referring the 17 yo shooter, 'none of which would have happened had he been a law abiding citizen'. You seem to completely contradict that in you comments above. Surely the same logic should apply to your arguments regardless who is breaking the law? In this instance, had he followed instructions form police then the same locig should apply, no?

Not looking for an argument, but its seems daft to argue that there's a problem because people are being treated differently because of who they are then suggest treating people differently because of who they are.
:agree: and the idea that he shot at people because someone had a gun or threw something at him doesn’t take into consideration that maybe people threw something at him because he was carrying a rifle etc.

The bias/rush to defend the situation automatically paints the victims in the worst way whilst absolving the murderer of blame.

[Keith_M]

Comments like this are just stupid.

I’m very aware of racism and equally the historical circumstances particularly in the US which means black people are more likely to continue to be disproportionally impacted by their interactions with police, however, you can’t just say that things that happen to black people are automatically racist. The context of each incident needs to be taken into account.


I think that's a fair point and it's unfair to say to anybody that raises questions about a particular incident that they're 'in denial'.


Are there racist cops? Of course there are.

It's also the case that there are cops out there that are not outright racist, but that possibly see black males (and, incidentally, Latinos) as being potentially more dangerous due to the disproportionately high level of gun crimes in those groups compared to the population in general.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't reasons behind that difference (e.g. the higher level of poverty in Black and Latino communities), or that it's fair for anyone to judge somebody else... even sub-consciously... because they meet a certain profile, But being aware of the crime statistics may make that person more nervous when meeting an angry black male (once again, I am not justifying that in any way).


If anybody thinks this is a straightforward subject with an easy answer, then I'm not sure they've thought it through.

[Berwickhibby]

:agree: and the idea that he shot at people because someone had a gun or threw something at him doesn’t take into consideration that maybe people threw something at him because he was carrying a rifle etc.

The bias/rush to defend the situation automatically paints the victims in the worst way whilst absolving the murderer of blame.

There is no defence in my book, he is a youth carrying an illegal firearm, he traveled to an area to be a vigilante, he discharged his rifle prior to the incident on tape, he was chased and fell over, he then discharged his weapon at 3 people.

[Hibrandenburg]

Comments like this are just stupid.

I’m very aware of racism and equally the historical circumstances particularly in the US which means black people are more likely to continue to be disproportionally impacted by their interactions with police, however, you can’t just say that things that happen to black people are automatically racist. The context of each incident needs to be taken into account.

I'll start at the back and work from there.

You can say that things that happen to black people are racist. Not all things but many of the things that have come to light in the past few months are. Whether that be cops shooting black people deliberately because they ARE racist or cops shooting black people because they're frightened of black people makes little difference and both are racially motivated.

If like me, someone strongly believes that many of these incidents are racially motivated then I have to ask myself why some people want or appear to want to dismiss these incidents as non racially motivated and because I like to think that people are generally good then I conclude that most of them like me don't want to believe that there are racist elements to the police, however there clearly are racist policemen in the US given what we're witnessing now and not accepting that fact is being in denial.

I don't think anyone is saying that all things that happen to black people is racist, that would be utterly stupid and to suggest anyone is saying that is equally stupid.

[neil7908]

I think it would be entirely down to the circumstances.

I've never suggested any black person shot by police automatically equals racism. But the number of such events is staggering.

And my post is about a specific case of how a white man who has committed a double murder is treated by the police versus a black man perceived to be a threat.

It's not like every black man shot by police makes national news. Plenty of the killings are probably "justified" under the law and never make the news. We hear about the cases that are dubious at best. And there are plenty of them.

[Moulin Yarns]

You have been a strong advocate throughout this thread for equal treatment and fairness, so I can't understand how yesterday you said when referring the 17 yo shooter, 'none of which would have happened had he been a law abiding citizen'. You seem to completely contradict that in you comments above. Surely the same logic should apply to your arguments regardless who is breaking the law? In this instance, had he followed instructions form police then the same locig should apply, no?

Not looking for an argument, but its seems daft to argue that there's a problem because people are being treated differently because of who they are then suggest treating people differently because of who they are.

The difference between Jacob Blake and Kyle Rittenhouse, as I see it, are that the former admitted to police he had a knife, and was not restrained by the numerous police officers which allowed him to walk round to the drivers door of his car. With his back to the nearest police officer he was shot from a range of about 1m seven times in the back. As far as I can ascertain, Jacob was at a house where his girlfriend was present, a girlfriend he had previously assaulted (rape?) Jacob had their 3 children in the car, (was he either picking them up or dropping them off?) The police were called and Jacob was shot during the subsequent altercation with the police. At this moment we don't know why Jacob was at that house.

Kyle, on the other hand took it upon himself to be an armed vigilante to stop looting and damage. He broke several laws, I believe he faces 6 charges, including first degree murder, as a result of being a minor taking a firearm onto the streets, across state lines. He was a prospective police officer, having been a member of a police cadet group. video footage show him chatting with police and getting a bottle of water from them before trouble kicked off, Why did the police not check his gun licence earlier? He looks very young in the videos. The police even thanked him for protecting property. What happened to Kyle, was brought on by his own actions.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2020-08-27/jacob-blake-shooting-trevor-noah-daily-show

I made this same comment earlier regarding the 'due process' of de-escalation of the Jacob Blake situation


“How come Jacob Blake was seen as a deadly threat for a theoretical gun — that he might have and might try to commit a crime with — but this gunman, who was armed and had already shot people, who had shown that he is a threat, was arrested the next day, given full due process of the law and generally treated like a human being whose life matters?”

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53950621

I see the police are worried Jacob Blake is going to do a runner. 🙄

[IvanSproule]

I've never suggested any black person shot by police automatically equals racism. But the number of such events is staggering.

And my post is about a specific case of how a white man who has committed a double murder is treated by the police versus a black man perceived to be a threat.

It's not like every black man shot by police makes national news. Plenty of the killings are probably "justified" under the law and never make the news. We hear about the cases that are dubious at best. And there are plenty of them.

I don't think comparing the two incidents is at all enlightening. The first police that he walked past clearly had no idea he was the shooter and were more focused on getting to the bodies lying in the street, he was then arrested minutes later. Are you suggesting that the cops knew he had just shot 2 people and left him alone?

Bizarrely the fact that he was carrying an assault rifle is barely relevant as you can see from footage of the area that so many people are carrying guns.

With regards to the reporting of shootings the figures are available if you are struggling to find them, the washington post has an extensive database of police shootings that is freely available.

[beensaidbefore]

The difference between Jacob Blake and Kyle Rittenhouse, as I see it, are that the former admitted to police he had a knife, and was not restrained by the numerous police officers which allowed him to walk round to the drivers door of his car. With his back to the nearest police officer he was shot from a range of about 1m seven times in the back. As far as I can ascertain, Jacob was at a house where his girlfriend was present, a girlfriend he had previously assaulted (rape?) Jacob had their 3 children in the car, (was he either picking them up or dropping them off?) The police were called and Jacob was shot during the subsequent altercation with the police. At this moment we don't know why Jacob was at that house.

Kyle, on the other hand took it upon himself to be an armed vigilante to stop looting and damage. He broke several laws, I believe he faces 6 charges, including first degree murder, as a result of being a minor taking a firearm onto the streets, across state lines. He was a prospective police officer, having been a member of a police cadet group. video footage show him chatting with police and getting a bottle of water from them before trouble kicked off, Why did the police not check his gun licence earlier? He looks very young in the videos. The police even thanked him for protecting property. What happened to Kyle, was brought on by his own actions.

I hear what you are saying, but both circumstances would have been different if both obeyed the law of the land. Obviously the circumstances are completely different but both involved guns. I think one of the main reasons we are where we are is there has been exception made/given depending on who has committed a crime. To move on from that I think we need to avoid making exceptions for criminal behavior, regardless of circumstance, otherwise there will always be someone able point a finger and say so and so gets preferential treatment. :aok:

[lapsedhibee]

I don't think comparing the two incidents is at all enlightening. The first police that he walked past clearly had no idea he was the shooter and were more focused on getting to the bodies lying in the street, he was then arrested minutes later. Are you suggesting that the cops knew he had just shot 2 people and left him alone?


He was arrested the following day in Illinois, a different state.

[IvanSproule]

He was arrested the following day in Illinois, a different state.

Wow, apologies. Just saw the news outlet I got that info from has since retracted it. Thanks for telling me.

[neil7908]

I don't think comparing the two incidents is at all enlightening. The first police that he walked past clearly had no idea he was the shooter and were more focused on getting to the bodies lying in the street, he was then arrested minutes later. Are you suggesting that the cops knew he had just shot 2 people and left him alone?

Bizarrely the fact that he was carrying an assault rifle is barely relevant as you can see from footage of the area that so many people are carrying guns.

With regards to the reporting of shootings the figures are available if you are struggling to find them, the washington post has an extensive database of police shootings that is freely available.

I'm suggesting a black man walking away from the site of a shooting with a rifle strapped to him would have been immediately detained. The key isn't carrying the gun, as you say that is sadly normal, it's shooting someone and then barely seconds later being allowed to waltz past police brandishing the murder weapon.

I think you need to read more on this. As another poster noted, he wasn't detained 2 minutes later, it was well after the fact. He was literally allowed to walk out of the crime scene with the smoking gun and head back home. No one apparently even looked twice at him. And reports state that many witnesses to the shooting immediately told police it was him. And he still got home.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is on police shootings. I've seen the figures and to reiterate, not all police shootings of black men are racist. I can concede that. My point though is that the shootings that do make the news are for a reason - there is more than a wiff of racism. It isn't like every black man killed by the police makes the news.

[neil7908]

Wow, apologies. Just saw the news outlet I got that info from has since retracted it. Thanks for telling me.

That was my reaction as well. Like you I was a bit more ambivalent about things until I did a bit of digging. That's the problem with these stories, it can take days for the truth to emerge.

[IvanSproule]

I'm suggesting a black man walking away from the site of a shooting with a rifle strapped to him would have been immediately detained. The key isn't carrying the gun, as you say that is sadly normal, it's shooting someone and then barely seconds later being allowed to waltz past police brandishing the murder weapon.

I think you need to read more on this. As another poster noted, he wasn't detained 2 minutes later, it was well after the fact. He was literally allowed to walk out of the crime scene with the smoking gun and head back home. No one apparently even looked twice at him. And reports state that many witnesses to the shooting immediately told police it was him. And he still got home.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is on police shootings. I've seen the figures and to reiterate, not all police shootings of black men are racist. I can concede that. My point though is that the shootings that do make the news are for a reason - there is more than a wiff of racism. It isn't like every black man killed by the police makes the news.


Yeah I was under the impression that he was detained shortly after.
I'm still not with you though as it seems you are inferring that the decision was consciously made by cops who knew he was the shooter to just let him go. I dont think that is the case at all, as you can see here https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298839097923063809 some bystanders did shout trying to identify the guy but they are shouting at cops in cars roughly 50 feet away. As he reaches the police one police vehicle alerts over tannoy "someone injured straight ahead" showing that their focus is on getting to the casualties and also ( I believe) showing that they don't know the guy walking past them did it.

In short I think you're trying to chalk up the incident as further evidence of racist policing and I think you're wrong.

I wasn't making any point by referencing the Washington Post database, you had just mentioned that most people are only exposed to a small number of high profile cases and wanted to make that resource known for anyone wanting to look further into it.

[Bristolhibby]

If anyone likes seeing racists getting knocked spark out.

This is the Tweet for you.

https://twitter.com/panoparker/status/1295327666665553920?s=21

J

[Rocky]

Yeah I was under the impression that he was detained shortly after.
I'm still not with you though as it seems you are inferring that the decision was consciously made by cops who knew he was the shooter to just let him go. I dont think that is the case at all, as you can see here https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298839097923063809 some bystanders did shout trying to identify the guy but they are shouting at cops in cars roughly 50 feet away. As he reaches the police one police vehicle alerts over tannoy "someone injured straight ahead" showing that their focus is on getting to the casualties and also ( I believe) showing that they don't know the guy walking past them did it.

In short I think you're trying to chalk up the incident as further evidence of racist policing and I think you're wrong.

I wasn't making any point by referencing the Washington Post database, you had just mentioned that most people are only exposed to a small number of high profile cases and wanted to make that resource known for anyone wanting to look further into it.

May I ask if you think that a black man carrying an AR-15 would have been allowed to walk through those police lines?

[Bristolhibby]

May I ask if you think that a black man carrying an AR-15 would have been allowed to walk through those police lines?

He’s be too dead to be doing any walking.

J

[IvanSproule]

May I ask if you think that a black man carrying an AR-15 would have been allowed to walk through those police lines?

Yes I do, no way of knowing of course.

He walks past the cops with arms in the air and looks no more threatening than any of the hundreds of other people on the street with handguns and assault rifles. If you think those police officers had not seen numerous armed men, black and otherwise, already that night you need to see the footage.

May I ask you if you think the cops he walked past knew he had just shot 2 people?

[Rocky]

Yes I do, no way of knowing of course.

He walks past the cops with arms in the air and looks no more threatening than any of the hundreds of other people on the street with handguns and assault rifles. If you think those police officers had not seen numerous armed men, black and otherwise, already that night you need to see the footage.

May I ask you if you think the cops he walked past knew he had just shot 2 people?

I've no idea but I'm not making representations on anyone's behalf like some. If your intention is to continue to take a position on the incident I'd recommend taking a look at Bellingcat on Twitter as they've done a forensic reconstruction of what went on.

[IvanSproule]

I've no idea but I'm not making representations on anyone's behalf like some. If your intention is to continue to take a position on the incident I'd recommend taking a look at Bellingcat on Twitter as they've done a forensic reconstruction of what went on.

If you mean myself the I think that's the opposite of what I'm doing, I was posting in response to someone that I believe was trying to chalk down the fact that the shooter walking past the police was further evidence of racist police. I thought that was a massive leap and was not backed up by the footage.

Yup that's an excellent reconstruction, I posted it on here 2 pages back.

[Moulin Yarns]

Check out the people shot by Kyle, one was a medic providing first aid to the BLM protesters.

[AT8]

Check out the people shot by Kyle, one was a medic providing first aid to the BLM protesters.

I never knew that first aid kits came with hand guns. You learn something new every day.

[neil7908]

Yeah I was under the impression that he was detained shortly after.
I'm still not with you though as it seems you are inferring that the decision was consciously made by cops who knew he was the shooter to just let him go. I dont think that is the case at all, as you can see here https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298839097923063809 some bystanders did shout trying to identify the guy but they are shouting at cops in cars roughly 50 feet away. As he reaches the police one police vehicle alerts over tannoy "someone injured straight ahead" showing that their focus is on getting to the casualties and also ( I believe) showing that they don't know the guy walking past them did it.

In short I think you're trying to chalk up the incident as further evidence of racist policing and I think you're wrong.

I wasn't making any point by referencing the Washington Post database, you had just mentioned that most people are only exposed to a small number of high profile cases and wanted to make that resource known for anyone wanting to look further into it.

I don't of course think the cops deliberately let him go knowing he was the shooter.

It was that they didn't even think of him as a suspect. I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this one but if a black male gunned down 2 people, not a chance in hell they are walking by the cops out of the crime scene with the murder weapon strapped across them.