Catalonia

[JeMeSouviens]

Surprised this hasn't attracted any comment given the obvious parallels.

It all looks very messy atm. How do we see this ending up?

[steakbake]

Surprised this hasn't attracted any comment given the obvious parallels.

It all looks very messy atm. How do we see this ending up?

Probably some kind of independence for Catalonia and with the EU sitting on the fence as they wouldn't want to upset Spain.

Hopefully, people here will take notice.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Surprised this hasn't attracted any comment given the obvious parallels.

It all looks very messy atm. How do we see this ending up?

Whats happening there?

[ronaldo7]

Surprised this hasn't attracted any comment given the obvious parallels.

It all looks very messy atm. How do we see this ending up?

Franco is back.

[Killiehibbie]

Whats happening there?
Referendum coming soon.

[JeMeSouviens]

Whats happening there?

Catalan government (which is an uneasy coalition of centrist nationalists and leftist radicals) has called a referendum for October 1st and the Catalan parliament has passed a law stating a Yes vote will lead to independence asap.

The Spanish courts have suspended both the referendum and the transition law. The Spanish government (led by the PP, more or less their version of the Tories) has vowed the referendum is illegal and will not happen and that Catalan secession would be against the Spanish constitution. They have threatened to imprison the Mayors of local authorities that co-operate with the vote.

Catalan government says it will press on regardless ...

[EH6 Hibby]

Catalan government (which is an uneasy coalition of centrist nationalists and leftist radicals) has called a referendum for October 1st and the Catalan parliament has passed a law stating a Yes vote will lead to independence asap.

The Spanish courts have suspended both the referendum and the transition law. The Spanish government (led by the PP, more or less their version of the Tories) has vowed the referendum is illegal and will not happen and that Catalan secession would be against the Spanish constitution. They have threatened to imprison the Mayors of local authorities that co-operate with the vote.

Catalan government says it will press on regardless ...

I wonder if there is likely to be any trouble following the referendum, I'm booked to go to Salou on 13th October. I knew there was a referendum planned, but I didn't realise it was so soon.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wonder if there is likely to be any trouble following the referendum, I'm booked to go to Salou on 13th October. I knew there was a referendum planned, but I didn't realise it was so soon.

Don't stand in front of the tanks and I'm sure you'll be fine. :wink:

[lucky]

I can't see anything happening as the referendum has no legal status. But if they vote for it it should be allowed to happen but I don't see parallels with Scotland as we collectively rejected independence in a legal referendum

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't see anything happening as the referendum has no legal status. But if they vote for it it should be allowed to happen but I don't see parallels with Scotland as we collectively rejected independence in a legal referendum

Can't imagine you looked very hard. :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

Can't imagine you looked very hard. :rolleyes:

He did explain his reasoning, and in the same sentence.

It seems it was you that didn't look too hard. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

He did explain his reasoning, and in the same sentence.

It seems it was you that didn't look too hard. :wink:

His reasoning was that Scotland voted no. The Catalans haven't even voted yet. And that our referendum was legal, that's fair enough.

But you really can't see any other parallels between Catalonia/Spain and Scotland/UK?

[pollution]

His reasoning was that Scotland voted no. The Catalans haven't even voted yet. And that our referendum was legal, that's fair enough.

But you really can't see any other parallels between Catalonia/Spain and Scotland/UK?The weather?

[JeMeSouviens]

The weather?

Nah, it's the McGinn/Messi thing that should leap out. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

The polls are close but there is still a majority against secession, 49%-41%. And even if there's a last minute surge and the secessionists win, Madrid wouldnt honour it. Catalonia is too rich and important to the economy.

[JeMeSouviens]

The polls are close but there is still a majority against secession, 49%-41%. And even if there's a last minute surge and the secessionists win, Madrid wouldnt honour it. Catalonia is too rich and important to the economy.

Actually the Yes side is almost certain to "win" because a high proportion of the No side are urging abstention, including Rajoy and the King. That's assuming the vote goes ahead.

What happens in the aftermath of a clear Yes result but on a low turnout is anyone's guess? They need international recognition and support and I think are unlikely to get either.

[hibsbollah]

Actually the Yes side is almost certain to "win" because a high proportion of the No side are urging abstention, including Rajoy and the King. That's assuming the vote goes ahead.

What happens in the aftermath of a clear Yes result but on a low turnout is anyone's guess? They need international recognition and support and I think are unlikely to get either.

Why would No voters abstain? That seems self defeating :dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

Why would No voters abstain? That seems self defeating :dunno:Because they're making the point that the referendum is probably illegal, and certainly not binding?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Because they're making the point that the referendum is probably illegal, and certainly not binding?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I see. I haven't really been following it aside from the opinion poll mentioned already. It would be peculiar that the majority would oppose secession yet potentially lose a referendum on the subject.

[lord bunberry]

It's completely un democratic of Spain not to recognise this vote. Politicians are elected to carry out the will of the people. If the Catalans want to have a vote they should be allowed to. Spain should do what the UK did and make the case for remaining a part of Spain.
The vote will be irrelevant as the no campaign won't take part meaning the result will be illegitimate.

[Killiehibbie]

The polls are close but there is still a majority against secession, 49%-41%. And even if there's a last minute surge and the secessionists win, Madrid wouldnt honour it. Catalonia is too rich and important to the economy.
That can't be right the Spanish version of project fear have said unemployment will be over 40% within days.

[Glory Lurker]

From what I can tell, Spain's constitution is loaded against self-determination. That is completely undemocratic, but they don't seem to be bothered.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Interesting one. I knew a ref was in the offing, i didnt know it was now set.

Hard to know how it will end up, and a bery tricky situation for the EU to potentially manahe, in terms of whether or not to recognise.

Its not really a fight i personally habe much of an interest in, but as far as i know catalonia is far morw prosperous and wealthy than the rest of spain, so why wouldnt they?

FC Barcelona could be the real losers thougj - thrown out of the spanish league?

[RyeSloan]

It's completely un democratic of Spain not to recognise this vote. Politicians are elected to carry out the will of the people. If the Catalans want to have a vote they should be allowed to. Spain should do what the UK did and make the case for remaining a part of Spain.
The vote will be irrelevant as the no campaign won't take part meaning the result will be illegitimate.

Why bother though...experience has shown that even if they did have a referendum and the Indy side lost they will merrily ignore the result and just plan another one.

Spain has little to gain from a referendum and very much doubt their position will change on that front anytime soon.

[JeMeSouviens]

This may be misreporting but Juncker says that both the Spanish Constitutional Court *and* a Catalan yes vote would be respected. :confused:

https://www.panorama.am/en/news/2017/09/15/EC-President-Juncker-says-he-will-respect-the-results-of-a-yes-vote-in-a-Catalan-independence-referendum/1835086

Also says Catalonia would have to apply to join the EU.

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting one. I knew a ref was in the offing, i didnt know it was now set.

Hard to know how it will end up, and a bery tricky situation for the EU to potentially manahe, in terms of whether or not to recognise.

Its not really a fight i personally habe much of an interest in, but as far as i know catalonia is far morw prosperous and wealthy than the rest of spain, so why wouldnt they?

FC Barcelona could be the real losers thougj - thrown out of the spanish league?

Armageddon! :greengrin

Could actually be the catalyst that sees cross border leagues accepted by UEFA.

Yet another country that would give us a doing in qualifiers though. :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Things just ratcheted up another notch. It looks like Madrid is going to play hard ball.

https://t.co/hAAKCse6zG

[lord bunberry]

Why bother though...experience has shown that even if they did have a referendum and the Indy side lost they will merrily ignore the result and just plan another one.

Spain has little to gain from a referendum and very much doubt their position will change on that front anytime soon.
That's nonsense. You know fine well the reason that there was calls for another referendum here. The prime minister himself said a brexit vote would be grounds for a second referendum after the promises made in the original campaign.

[RyeSloan]

That's nonsense. You know fine well the reason that there was calls for another referendum here. The prime minister himself said a brexit vote would be grounds for a second referendum after the promises made in the original campaign.

It's not nonsense...'Support the 45' was literally created the day after.

It's clear to pretty much any observer that the Scottish referendum result was simply ignored by the nationalists the moment it was announced. It was clearly seen as 'losing a battle and not the war' and their actions and words since have proven that to be the case.

The same happened in Canada with their Neverendum and I reckon it would happen in Spain as well so I stick by my view that there is little for Spain to gain by validating a vote as even if the vote was No the Catalan separatists will just carry on regardless.

[lord bunberry]

It's not nonsense...'Support the 45' was literally created the day after.

It's clear to pretty much any observer that the Scottish referendum result was simply ignored by the nationalists the moment it was announced. It was clearly seen as 'losing a battle and not the war' and their actions and words since have proven that to be the case.

The same happened in Canada with their Neverendum and I reckon it would happen in Spain as well so I stick by my view that there is little for Spain to gain by validating a vote as even if the vote was No the Catalan separatists will just carry on regardless.
Of course they will carry on regardless, but it doesn't mean that the powers that be will grant another referendum. The situation in Scotland was pretty unique in that one of the biggest tools used by the no campaign turned out to be completely false. If you believe in something, you will continue to campaign for that belief. Had the the EU referendum gone the other way there wouldn't have been plans made for a second vote by the SNP.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not nonsense...'Support the 45' was literally created the day after.

It's clear to pretty much any observer that the Scottish referendum result was simply ignored by the nationalists the moment it was announced. It was clearly seen as 'losing a battle and not the war' and their actions and words since have proven that to be the case.

The same happened in Canada with their Neverendum and I reckon it would happen in Spain as well so I stick by my view that there is little for Spain to gain by validating a vote as even if the vote was No the Catalan separatists will just carry on regardless.

Québec's 2nd indyref was 14 years after the first! And followed the failure to carry through the negotiated Meech Lake accord. Canada had to seriously wise up after squeaking home the 2nd time and Québec now, while still within the federation, has powers Scotland can only dream of.

[RyeSloan]

Of course they will carry on regardless, but it doesn't mean that the powers that be will grant another referendum. The situation in Scotland was pretty unique in that one of the biggest tools used by the no campaign turned out to be completely false. If you believe in something, you will continue to campaign for that belief. Had the the EU referendum gone the other way there wouldn't have been plans made for a second vote by the SNP.

We could argue all night about the why's and wherefores as to how and when Indy2 was first thought of as a target for the SNP. I'm pretty sure it wasn't just the day after Brexit vote and more like the day after the first vote.

Any how if, as you say, people will continue to campaign regardless (and there can be no doubting here has been a vigorous and pretty consistent campaign since 2014 in Scotland) then where is the value for Spain holding a vote? You can easily imagine them seeing that the Indy vote hear merely emboldened the Separatist movement rather than resolving a long term issue.

So suggesting that may well have a lot to lose and little to gain could be nonsense but I'm still not agreeing that it is [emoji16]

[RyeSloan]

Québec's 2nd indyref was 14 years after the first! And followed the failure to carry through the negotiated Meech Lake accord. Canada had to seriously wise up after squeaking home the 2nd time and Québec now, while still within the federation, has powers Scotland can only dream of.

Yet still it goes on...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/nationalpost.com/news/politics/pq-leadership-candidate-martine-ouellet-says-quebec-urgently-needs-to-separate-from-canada/amp

[EH6 Hibby]

Why bother though...experience has shown that even if they did have a referendum and the Indy side lost they will merrily ignore the result and just plan another one.

Spain has little to gain from a referendum and very much doubt their position will change on that front anytime soon.

Do you think that those that voted No would have just quietly accepted the result had it gone the other way?

[Just Alf]

In the Scottish context, regardless of which way the vote had gone the losers would always have had a few who'd continue to campaign, Indy 2 however only really became a "thing" after the Brexit vote confirmed the previous promises were hollow.
In fact if you were really bothered, have a look back at the threads on here and you'll see things began to be mentioned in the lead up to the vote ("what if" etc) and crystallised when it became apparent that many had placed their vote while being misled.

[RyeSloan]

Do you think that those that voted No would have just quietly accepted the result had it gone the other way?

Pretty much so yeah.

[lord bunberry]

We could argue all night about the why's and wherefores as to how and when Indy2 was first thought of as a target for the SNP. I'm pretty sure it wasn't just the day after Brexit vote and more like the day after the first vote.

Any how if, as you say, people will continue to campaign regardless (and there can be no doubting here has been a vigorous and pretty consistent campaign since 2014 in Scotland) then where is the value for Spain holding a vote? You can easily imagine them seeing that the Indy vote hear merely emboldened the Separatist movement rather than resolving a long term issue.

So suggesting that may well have a lot to lose and little to gain could be nonsense but I'm still not agreeing that it is [emoji16]
The main aim of the SNP is independence of course they were planning for a second vote as soon as they lost the first one. It's all about the timing of a second vote. Without brexit a second vote wouldn't be being discussed for a good number of years. Every political party has their own personal beliefs and goals, and they will continue to fight for them regardless of the result of any particular election result or referendum result.
The difference between a yes/leave vote is that they're virtually impossible to reverse.

[RyeSloan]

The main aim of the SNP is independence of course they were planning for a second vote as soon as they lost the first one. It's all about the timing of a second vote. Without brexit a second vote wouldn't be being discussed for a good number of years. Every political party has their own personal beliefs and goals, and they will continue to fight for them regardless of the result of any particular election result or referendum result.
The difference between a yes/leave vote is that they're virtually impossible to reverse.

Labouring the point now but largely that's what I'm saying...where in the above is there any incentive for the non separatists incumbents to facilitate a vote? It resolves nothing but risks an irreversible decision if the vote goes against them.

Ergo I can see why Spain are disinclined to validate any referendum.

[lord bunberry]

Labouring the point now but largely that's what I'm saying...where in the above is there any incentive for the non separatists incumbents to facilitate a vote? It resolves nothing but risks an irreversible decision if the vote goes against them.

Ergo I can see why Spain are disinclined to validate any referendum.
Surely it's democratic to allow the vote. If it's the will of the people, then it should be allowed to happen. We allowed the brexit vote when it was clearly against the national interest, why should an independence vote be any different.

[RyeSloan]

Surely it's democratic to allow the vote. If it's the will of the people, then it should be allowed to happen. We allowed the brexit vote when it was clearly against the national interest, why should an independence vote be any different.

My point was not a view on how democratic or otherwise the Spanish position was, it was merely a recognition of why their position is what it is.

But in brief I agree and disagree re the 'will of the people stuff' referendums can be deeply flawed processes. I'm not sure the recent bout of them in the UK have proven their worth in terms of either settling the argument or providing people with an informed choice. They seem to create more division and polarisation than the deliverance of the 'will of the people'

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest poll if google translate link works:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://m.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html&usg=ALkJrhgLk1tLnR67uksE98VArl6gvrf2DQ

Suggests 51% certain to vote, 60% likely.

Overall Yes leads 44-38. Of those likely to vote, Yes miles ahead.

If Yes wins on a 60% turnout then the recognition argument starts to look a lot more hopeful.

[beensaidbefore]

That can't be right the Spanish version of project fear have said unemployment will be over 40% within days.

Scaremongering from the establishment in the run up to an election that could see them lose their little lacky side kick and a huge chunk of revenue each year...wonders will never cease.

[beensaidbefore]

Why bother though...experience has shown that even if they did have a referendum and the Indy side lost they will merrily ignore the result and just plan another one.

Spain has little to gain from a referendum and very much doubt their position will change on that front anytime soon.


Sounds all too familiar doesn't it. rUN stood to gain nothing, so came up with a number big reasons why Scotland would t manage alone.

Lies and scaremongering have a successful track record so little surprise to see Spain giving it a go.

[beensaidbefore]

It's not nonsense...'Support the 45' was literally created the day after.

It's clear to pretty much any observer that the Scottish referendum result was simply ignored by the nationalists the moment it was announced. It was clearly seen as 'losing a battle and not the war' and their actions and words since have proven that to be the case.

The same happened in Canada with their Neverendum and I reckon it would happen in Spain as well so I stick by my view that there is little for Spain to gain by validating a vote as even if the vote was No the Catalan separatists will just carry on regardless.

Would you also concede that there was little for rUK to gain and lots for Scotland had their been a successful yes vote bin 14?

[hibsbollah]

Latest poll if google translate link works:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://m.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html&usg=ALkJrhgLk1tLnR67uksE98VArl6gvrf2DQ

Suggests 51% certain to vote, 60% likely.

Overall Yes leads 44-38. Of those likely to vote, Yes miles ahead.

If Yes wins on a 60% turnout then the recognition argument starts to look a lot more hopeful.

Something very funny going on with the polling. It doesn't fluctuate that much in a week.

[JeMeSouviens]

Something very funny going on with the polling. It doesn't fluctuate that much in a week.


Polls here, the 41Y-49N one that's been widely reported is 5 weeks old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#On_the_1_Oct ober_2017_referendum

[RyeSloan]

Would you also concede that there was little for rUK to gain and lots for Scotland had their been a successful yes vote bin 14?

Ach I'm not inclined to get into another Indy debate to be honest, I think those arguments have been had / rumble onwards on another thread.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yet still it goes on...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/nationalpost.com/news/politics/pq-leadership-candidate-martine-ouellet-says-quebec-urgently-needs-to-separate-from-canada/amp

It's coming up for 22 years and the PQ has only flirted with the idea. They've never gone out to get a mandate for a 3rd ref. The article you quote has an also ran for their leadership election trying to appeal to the PQ base with talk of a new ref. The other 3 aren't even doing that, indeed 1 has explicitly ruled it out. Can you imagine that happening in the SNP?

[beensaidbefore]

Ach I'm not inclined to get into another Indy debate to be honest, I think those arguments have been had / rumble onwards on another thread.

Fair do's. IL take that as a yes😝

[RyeSloan]

Fair do's. IL take that as a yes[emoji13]

Take it anyway you want [emoji12]

[RyeSloan]

It's coming up for 22 years and the PQ has only flirted with the idea. They've never gone out to get a mandate for a 3rd ref. The article you quote has an also ran for their leadership election trying to appeal to the PQ base with talk of a new ref. The other 3 aren't even doing that, indeed 1 has explicitly ruled it out. Can you imagine that happening in the SNP?

Maybe it will, maybe it won't I have no idea as I've mis placed my crystal ball! [emoji57]

The point was that there is still at least some political effort in Canada to revive the concept of another referendum. I totally accept though that it does not currently appear to be the majority view there politically.

[Bristolhibby]

It's completely un democratic of Spain not to recognise this vote. Politicians are elected to carry out the will of the people. If the Catalans want to have a vote they should be allowed to. Spain should do what the UK did and make the case for remaining a part of Spain.
The vote will be irrelevant as the no campaign won't take part meaning the result will be illegitimate.

That's the No campaigns fault.

IMHO self determination should go to the heart of any vote.

What we are saying here is because Madrid doesn't want to have a vote where the population of Catelonia decides its future, it can never happen?

Smacks of "It's my ball and I'm away home" to me.

Fair play to the Catelonians. They have strong governance, fair elections, well publicised and recognised in their autonomous legislature, then that's good enough for me.

It's for the people of Catelonia to decide.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Interesting one. I knew a ref was in the offing, i didnt know it was now set.

Hard to know how it will end up, and a bery tricky situation for the EU to potentially manahe, in terms of whether or not to recognise.

Its not really a fight i personally habe much of an interest in, but as far as i know catalonia is far morw prosperous and wealthy than the rest of spain, so why wouldnt they?

FC Barcelona could be the real losers thougj - thrown out of the spanish league?

A Cardiff/Swansea or Berwick Rangers situation perhaps?

J

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A Cardiff/Swansea or Berwick Rangers situation perhaps?

J

Possibly - im sure they will fudge it somehow.

Would just seem a rad hypocritical of that great icon of catalan nationalism to turn their back on their new country for money.

[lord bunberry]

[QUOTE=Bristolhibby;5171743]That's the No campaigns fault.

IMHO self determination should go to the heart of any vote.

What we are saying here is because Madrid doesn't want to have a vote where the population of Catelonia decides its future, it can never happen?

Smacks of "It's my ball and I'm away home" to me.

Fair play to the Catelonians. They have strong governance, fair elections, well publicised and recognised in their autonomous legislature, then that's good enough for me.

It's for the people of Catelonia to decide.

J[/QUOT
I agree, but we both know that the result will be declared illegitimate by the Spanish government.

[Bristolhibby]

[QUOTE=Bristolhibby;5171743]That's the No campaigns fault.

IMHO self determination should go to the heart of any vote.

What we are saying here is because Madrid doesn't want to have a vote where the population of Catelonia decides its future, it can never happen?

Smacks of "It's my ball and I'm away home" to me.

Fair play to the Catelonians. They have strong governance, fair elections, well publicised and recognised in their autonomous legislature, then that's good enough for me.

It's for the people of Catelonia to decide.

J[/QUOT
I agree, but we both know that the result will be declared illegitimate by the Spanish government.

Indeed. They are in a catch 22.

Hold a referendum and Madrid trashes it.
Don't hold a referendum and you are still a part of Spain.

Either way, the Catelonians are being shat on. They have no option but to go unilateral and organise their own referendum, as they will never get any agreement out of Madrid.

How do you function if you need agreementnof the very entity you are trying to become independent from and they don't want you to even vote on the matter, let alone ever stand on your own two feet.

J

[hibsbollah]

What we are saying here is because Madrid doesn't want to have a vote where the population of Catelonia decides its future, it can never happen?

I think that's exactly what we're saying here. Catalonia is now an existential question for a fading Imperial power like Spain. It should only come as a surprise to those who are naive enough to believe that representational democracy is used as anything other than a fig leaf to disguise state power. They'll only allow part of the whole power game to fall apart if it's in their own interests.

[One Day Soon]

We've spent 70 years painstakingly trying to move beyond nation-state identity politics after the slaughter of WWII.

Now that folk memory of what that looks like is fading it's suddenly a good idea to have secessionist movements, new nation-states and the break up of stable nations.

I despair. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

[Bristolhibby]

We've spent 70 years painstakingly trying to move beyond nation-state identity politics after the slaughter of WWII.

Now that folk memory of what that looks like is fading it's suddenly a good idea to have secessionist movements, new nation-states and the break up of stable nations.

I despair. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

I’d argue it’s globalisation that’s reduced nationalism. Not some desire not to fight each other.

Too much money to be risked fighting. At least people who can fight back.

When the oil and clean water runs out, that’s when the **** will really hit the fan.

[steakbake]

We've spent 70 years painstakingly trying to move beyond nation-state identity politics after the slaughter of WWII.

Now that folk memory of what that looks like is fading it's suddenly a good idea to have secessionist movements, new nation-states and the break up of stable nations.

I despair. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

The majority of the world's self governing nations either formed or became independent after 1945.

Self determination and secessionist movements did not cause WW1, WW2 and certainly won't be causing WW3.

[Future17]

Spanish police starting to arrest Catalonian Government officials.

[lord bunberry]

Spanish police starting to arrest Catalonian Government officials.
This won't end well now.

[JeMeSouviens]

We've spent 70 years painstakingly trying to move beyond nation-state identity politics after the slaughter of WWII.

Now that folk memory of what that looks like is fading it's suddenly a good idea to have secessionist movements, new nation-states and the break up of stable nations.

I despair. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Think you might be slightly mixing up your world wars there. :wink:

But even if you remembered history enough to understand it. The idea that Spain, which in the last century fought a bloody civil war, endured decades of a totalitarian dictatorship and a violent insurrection by the Basques and is made up of several national groups (Castilians, Catalans, Galicians, Basques) some continually pushing for further autonomy, constitutes a "stable nation" is pretty laughable tbh.

[One Day Soon]

Think you might be slightly mixing up your world wars there. :wink:

But even if you remembered history enough to understand it. The idea that Spain, which in the last century fought a bloody civil war, endured decades of a totalitarian dictatorship and a violent insurrection by the Basques and is made up of several national groups (Castilians, Catalans, Galicians, Basques) some continually pushing for further autonomy, constitutes a "stable nation" is pretty laughable tbh.


I think I have my world wars spot on there thanks.

The idea that Spain - which is over 500 years old - isn't a stable nation, is beyond parody. But then perhaps you don't think France, Germany, or Italy are stable countries either?

Cossetted political elites are playing with fire using identity politics. They think its a parlour game with no consequences and the world somehow owes rich European countries a living so any indulgence is fine.

Our children will end up paying for this crap.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think I have my world wars spot on there thanks.

The idea that Spain - which is over 500 years old - isn't a stable nation, is beyond parody. But then perhaps you don't think France, Germany, or Italy are stable countries either?

Cossetted political elites are playing with fire using identity politics. They think its a parlour game with no consequences and the world somehow owes rich European countries a living so any indulgence is fine.

Our children will end up paying for this crap.

Well there's really no point arguing then, is there. Your last 3 lines read like a parody of student politics. You're not Jim Murphy are you?

[Hibrandenburg]

We've spent 70 years painstakingly trying to move beyond nation-state identity politics after the slaughter of WWII.

Now that folk memory of what that looks like is fading it's suddenly a good idea to have secessionist movements, new nation-states and the break up of stable nations.

I despair. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

We've spent 70 years trying to ensure that the reasons for fighting each other are replaced with reasons to support each other and grow together, none more important than the establishment of a common market and open borders allowing free movement and cultural exchange. It's such a shame that Britain's largest socialist party isn't willing to fight to keep us a part of it.

[ronaldo7]

Barcelona, right now.

19382

[One Day Soon]

Well there's really no point arguing then, is there. Your last 3 lines read like a parody of student politics. You're not Jim Murphy are you?


You're probably right, if you don't accept that the present EU was born out of the deep desire 70 years ago to avoid another European conflagration then we'll have little to discuss.

The tone of your reply hits the standard Yes level. No wonder Yes and the Nats are bleeding support.

[One Day Soon]

We've spent 70 years trying to ensure that the reasons for fighting each other are replaced with reasons to support each other and grow together, none more important than the establishment of a common market and open borders allowing free movement and cultural exchange. It's such a shame that Britain's largest socialist party isn't willing to fight to keep us a part of it.


I could not agree more. Corbyn's position as been completely disingenuous.

Mind you the Tories are in the same boat and the SNP were happy to take us out of it with Independence.

[Hibrandenburg]

I could not agree more. Corbyn's position as been completely disingenuous.

Mind you the Tories are in the same boat and the SNP were happy to take us out of it with Independence.

In your opinion. In mine we'd be sitting back with popcorn watching the farce in Westminster unravel and safe in the knowledge that our little nation-state was not about to be dragged back 70 years by the bigger nation-state next door. So much for learning from the past.

[The Pointer]

We've spent 70 years trying to ensure that the reasons for fighting each other are replaced with reasons to support each other and grow together, none more important than the establishment of a common market and open borders allowing free movement and cultural exchange. It's such a shame that Britain's largest socialist party isn't willing to fight to keep us a part of it.

The common market was a good idea but we've seen what free movement and open borders have done and will very quickly get worse.

[snooky]

I can't see anything happening as the referendum has no legal status. But if they vote for it it should be allowed to happen but I don't see parallels with Scotland as we collectively rejected independence in a -------- legal referendum
You missed out "arguably". :coffee:

[Hibrandenburg]

The common market was a good idea but we've seen what free movement and open borders have done and will very quickly get worse.

What have they done?

[snooky]

It's not nonsense...'Support the 45' was literally created the day after.

It's clear to pretty much any observer that the Scottish referendum result was simply ignored by the nationalists the moment it was announced. It was clearly seen as 'losing a battle and not the war' and their actions and words since have proven that to be the case.

The same happened in Canada with their Neverendum and I reckon it would happen in Spain as well so I stick by my view that there is little for Spain to gain by validating a vote as even if the vote was No the Catalan separatists will just carry on regardless.

It was also pretty clear that "the moment it was announced" all the promises made in the "THE VOW" were quickly broken and all the threats of closing stores, company HQ's and manufacturing plants moving south were implimented regardless of the "No" vote. The referendum was a staged farce by the government and media from the outset. That being the case, we have every right to pursue a second ref. Alas, I am of the belief that there's no chance of independence. The Westminster government will never allow it - by fair means or foul.

[RyeSloan]

It was also pretty clear that "the moment it was announced" all the promises made in the "THE VOW" were quickly broken and all the threats of closing stores, company HQ's and manufacturing plants moving south were implimented regardless of the "No" vote. The referendum was a staged farce by the government and media from the outset. That being the case, we have every right to pursue a second ref. Alas, I am of the belief that there's no chance of independence. The Westminster government will never allow it - by fair means or foul.

Not sure the Vow promised very much at all.

I honestly don't want to get into a protracted discussion on this but on the flip side I'm interested as to what long list of promises you think it contained?

You are also being completely revisionist if you believe the referendum was a 'staged farce'.

I agree on one thing though, I don't think the UK government will contemplate agreeing to another one for quite some time. Partly for the reasons I have put forward for Spain not wanting to agree to one and partly because they probably agree with Alex Salmond "In my view this is a once in a generation - perhaps even a once in a lifetime - opportunity." And with Nicola's "once in a generation ‘opportunity’ or ‘event’". Of course both have been rather revisionist on those statements as well [emoji57][emoji12]

[JeMeSouviens]

Not sure the Vow promised very much at all.

I honestly don't want to get into a protracted discussion on this but on the flip side I'm interested as to what long list of promises you think it contained?

You are also being completely revisionist if you believe the referendum was a 'staged farce'.

I agree on one thing though, I don't think the UK government will contemplate agreeing to another one for quite some time. Partly for the reasons I have put forward for Spain not wanting to agree to one and partly because they probably agree with Alex Salmond "In my view this is a once in a generation - perhaps even a once in a lifetime - opportunity." And with Nicola's "once in a generation ‘opportunity’ or ‘event’". Of course both have been rather revisionist on those statements as well [emoji57][emoji12]

:agree: There was plenty of spin about "devo super max" but nothing specific.

Compared to Spain, the UK gov seems like a paragon of democratic virtue (albeit the media was almost 100% pro-Union). Indyref2 will come when it's popular enough to attract sustained support. Could be in a couple of years or 10 but it's coming. :wink:

I'm actually a bit more relaxed about the urgency since I think the UK is inexorably shifting towards at least a transitionally soft Brexit. Once that's in place and accepted, the harder Brexiters will find it a hard job to shift things their way. Like the supposedly temporary retention of the pound until the "5 tests" for Euro adoption were met. So I think Scotland stands a better chance of avoiding full on economic carnage until we get our act together.

[JeMeSouviens]

You're probably right, if you don't accept that the present EU was born out of the deep desire 70 years ago to avoid another European conflagration then we'll have little to discuss.

The tone of your reply hits the standard Yes level. No wonder Yes and the Nats are bleeding support.

Eh? I'm pro-EU, it's you Unionists that want to rip us out into isolationism.

btw, latest poll this month, Survation Yes 46% (+3). Given the collapse of the oil price and the relentless Nat-bashing barrage from the media (and you on any random thread you can shoehorn your condescension into), that's pretty solid. :wink:

[snooky]

Not sure the Vow promised very much at all.

I honestly don't want to get into a protracted discussion on this but on the flip side I'm interested as to what long list of promises you think it contained?

You are also being completely revisionist if you believe the referendum was a 'staged farce'.

I agree on one thing though, I don't think the UK government will contemplate agreeing to another one for quite some time. Partly for the reasons I have put forward for Spain not wanting to agree to one and partly because they probably agree with Alex Salmond "In my view this is a once in a generation - perhaps even a once in a lifetime - opportunity." And with Nicola's "once in a generation ‘opportunity’ or ‘event’". Of course both have been rather revisionist on those statements as well [emoji57][emoji12]

If I was viewing from your vantage point, I guess I wouldn't be as cynical. However, from this side of the hill, .......

[RyeSloan]

If I was viewing from your vantage point, I guess I wouldn't be as cynical. However, from this side of the hill, .......

I'm either being slow (has been known on occasion [emoji23]) or this response makes little sense...

[pacoluna]

La Liga giant Barcelona issued an official club communiqué saying it “condemns” any opposition to free speech.

in the wake of the events that have transpired in recent days and, especially, today, with regard to the current political situation in Catalonia, FC Barcelona, in remaining faithful to its historic commitment to the defense of the nation, to democracy, to freedom of speech, and to self-determination, condemns any act that may impede the free exercise of these rights.
Therefore, FC Barcelona publicly expresses its support for all people, entities, and institutions that work to guarantee these rights.
FC Barcelona, in holding the utmost respect for its diverse body of members, will continue to support the will of the majority of Catalan people, and will do so in a civil, peaceful, and exemplary way.

[ronaldo7]

Not sure the Vow promised very much at all.

I honestly don't want to get into a protracted discussion on this but on the flip side I'm interested as to what long list of promises you think it contained?

You are also being completely revisionist if you believe the referendum was a 'staged farce'.

I agree on one thing though, I don't think the UK government will contemplate agreeing to another one for quite some time. Partly for the reasons I have put forward for Spain not wanting to agree to one and partly because they probably agree with Alex Salmond "In my view this is a once in a generation - perhaps even a once in a lifetime - opportunity." And with Nicola's "once in a generation ‘opportunity’ or ‘event’". Of course both have been rather revisionist on those statements as well [emoji57][emoji12]

International law doesn't recognise "once in a generation", you accept the result, then move to the next one. Indyref2 here we come.

[snooky]

I'm either being slow (has been known on occasion [emoji23]) or this response makes little sense...

Sorry for the muddy waters, RS.
It's a bit like the difference of opinion between myself and Livi's manager regarding Beaton's performance on Tuesday night. David Hopkin thought the ref favoured us - I thought the opposite.
Whatever side your on generally dictates the way you see things.

[Hibrandenburg]

International law doesn't recognise "once in a generation", you accept the result, then move to the next one. Indyref2 here we come.

Never ceases to amaze me how Britnats are happy to brush off the promises made to the Scottish people days before the referendum as spin but consider the off the cuff statement made by Salmond as set in stone.

[RyeSloan]

Sorry for the muddy waters, RS.
It's a bit like the difference of opinion between myself and Livi's manager regarding Beaton's performance on Tuesday night. David Hopkin thought the ref favoured us - I thought the opposite.
Whatever side your on generally dictates the way you see things.

I'm still not getting if you are saying that I'm suggesting it was a staged farce or you are saying it was a staged farce [emoji23]

First off I didn't say that and I don't believe that it was, second if you are saying that then I stand by the fact I think you are being rather revisionist if taking that view!

Anyhoo don't suppose it matters too much either way! 🤣

[RyeSloan]

Never ceases to amaze me how Britnats are happy to brush off the promises made to the Scottish people days before the referendum as spin but consider the off the cuff statement made by Salmond as set in stone.

Is 'Britnat' the new 'Unionist'?

And as ever it is possible to view two things separately and without having to label someone who questions such things.

Both leaders of the SNP stated in televised interviews that it was a once in a generation type event...it's therefore fair to question their subsequent actions based on those comments.

The Vow contained very little in the way of 'promises' so it's also fair to question what promises people think were broken.

Asking the question shouldn't label someone immediately as a BritNat or whatever just because the question is aimed at Indy politicians or supporters. But I suppose that's why I decline to get involved in most of these discussions these days as it seems rather impossible to ask reasonable questions or seek reasonable answers without the labels coming straight out and the responses reverting back to the rhetoric that was being queried in the first place!

[RyeSloan]

:agree: There was plenty of spin about "devo super max" but nothing specific.

Compared to Spain, the UK gov seems like a paragon of democratic virtue (albeit the media was almost 100% pro-Union). Indyref2 will come when it's popular enough to attract sustained support. Could be in a couple of years or 10 but it's coming. :wink:

I'm actually a bit more relaxed about the urgency since I think the UK is inexorably shifting towards at least a transitionally soft Brexit. Once that's in place and accepted, the harder Brexiters will find it a hard job to shift things their way. Like the supposedly temporary retention of the pound until the "5 tests" for Euro adoption were met. So I think Scotland stands a better chance of avoiding full on economic carnage until we get our act together.

I tend to agree...most things never end up at the extreme ends as portrayed by the yea or nae sides of any debate.

[Beefster]

but consider the off the cuff statement made by Salmond as set in stone.

I think the fact that Sturgeon said 'once in a lifetime' probably adds a bit of weight to the notion.

[snooky]

I'm still not getting if you are saying that I'm suggesting it was a staged farce or you are saying it was a staged farce [emoji23]

First off I didn't say that and I don't believe that it was, second if you are saying that then I stand by the fact I think you are being rather revisionist if taking that view!

Anyhoo don't suppose it matters too much either way! ��

To clarify. I think the media bias, 'the Vow', company threats + some questionable incidents made the whole referendum a fiasco. You obviously don't see it that way & that's fair enough, I respect your opinion. Simples.

A 'revisionist'? :hmmm: I guess that's similar to folk calling someone a 'terrorist' or 'freedom-fighter'. i.e. It depends on one's view point.

[hibsbollah]

I think the fact that Sturgeon said 'once in a lifetime' probably adds a bit of weight to the notion.

I think repeating this quote as if it's some sort of smoking gun that Nicola is nothing but a lying hound is unfair.

It's patently obvious to me (and I've never voted SNP to be clear) that the earthquake that is Brexit is a change that is so fundamental to Scotland, and such a challenge to democratic legitimacy, that a second referendum is justified.

But even if it wasn't, the phrase 'once in a lifetime opportunity' was used again and again by Sturgeon to describe the referendum as a phrase to tub thump, to drum up support, to engender enthusiasm. It does not mean 'I will commit to never ever having another referendum at any point in the future regardless of circumstance.'

Cameron made his Blomberg speech way back in 2013 in which he committed to having a brexit referendum, to placate the voters who were deserting them to UKIP. But even after this, most commentators were shocked when he called it in Feb 2016, and were equally shocked when the result happened. We all were! I think it's fair to say that no-one in the SNP hierarchy really believed Brexit would give them another shot at it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the fact that Sturgeon said 'once in a lifetime' probably adds a bit of weight to the notion.

Horse manure. Expressing the opinion in a TV interview that an upcoming referendum is possibly a "once in a generation" opportunity and with the precedence of the previous one having taken place a generation before is hardly a pledge or "vow". It's simply not comparable with the leaders of all three major parties coming north of the border at the 11th hour with an empty promise designed to sway undecided voters that there is a third choice, even if it doesn't appear on the ballot paper. Comparing comments made based on personal opinion and a strategic lie is simply silly.

[RyeSloan]

To clarify. I think the media bias, 'the Vow', company threats + some questionable incidents made the whole referendum a fiasco. You obviously don't see it that way & that's fair enough, I respect your opinion. Simples.

A 'revisionist'? :hmmm: I guess that's similar to folk calling someone a 'terrorist' or 'freedom-fighter'. i.e. It depends on one's view point.

Ha ha OK!

Not sure on the terrorist bit to be fair but I'm pretty damn certain there was few if any people on here the night before the vote claiming the whole thing a fiasco..

But opinions are opinions and you are entitled to yours and as you went to such lengths to clarify for my slow heed I'm happy to let it lie there and even admit that to some degree I see where you are coming from! And really I suppose your point does echo to my earlier post on this thread about my musings on how effective referendums actually are....(almost got this chat relating back to the OP [emoji16])

✌️

[xyz23jc]

I think the fact that Sturgeon said 'once in a lifetime' probably adds a bit of weight to the notion.

Maybe she's a big Talking Heads fan? :greengrin

Sure the quote, often misquoted was 'once in a generation opportunity', but not 100% on that. Think Hibrandenberg's comment sums it up perfectly! :agree:

[ronaldo7]

Is 'Britnat' the new 'Unionist'?

And as ever it is possible to view two things separately and without having to label someone who questions such things.

Both leaders of the SNP stated in televised interviews that it was a once in a generation type event...it's therefore fair to question their subsequent actions based on those comments.

The Vow contained very little in the way of 'promises' so it's also fair to question what promises people think were broken.

Asking the question shouldn't label someone immediately as a BritNat or whatever just because the question is aimed at Indy politicians or supporters. But I suppose that's why I decline to get involved in most of these discussions these days as it seems rather impossible to ask reasonable questions or seek reasonable answers without the labels coming straight out and the responses reverting back to the rhetoric that was being queried in the first place!

The vow starts off as follows,

The Scottish Parliament is permanent. That's the lie, as shown by the supreme court.

Take away all the other promises on jobs, pensions, renewables, oil bonanza, ship orders etc, our parliament is based on whether Westminster decides if it should stay open at all.

Stay, they said, you're an equal partner they said, lead the Uk, don't leave, your EU membership is safe if you vote NO, they said.

Then, David Cameron, the morning after the vote came out with EVEL.

[lord bunberry]

Maybe she's a big Talking Heads fan? :greengrin

Sure the quote, often misquoted was 'once in a generation opportunity', but not 100% on that. Think Hibrandenberg's comment sums it up perfectly! :agree:
People are so quick to bring up the "once in a generation quote" but never seem to mention that the then prime minister stated that brexit would be enough reason for a second vote as it would've meant that the promises made in the independence referendum were false.

[Bristolhibby]

Brexit changes everything IMHO.

It’s the reset button, all bets are off. Virgin snow.

Anyway back to Catelonia. Personally I think they’ve been boxed in a corner. Madrid says it’s illegal to have a referendum. Madrid decides what’s leagal or not. Madrid will never allow a referendum to happen. How do the Catalonian people express their democratic desires?

Madrid then arrrest Catelonians politicians. It’s ****** mental! Moderate Catelonians (Soft no’s, let’s call them) should be flooding to the Independence flag as a result of these boot boy thug tactics.

Crazy!

I’m not being over dramatic, but it’s the exact ignoring of democracy that started the Civil war in 1936.

J

[One Day Soon]

Eh? I'm pro-EU, it's you Unionists that want to rip us out into isolationism.

You are aware that significant numbers of people who voted Yes also voted to leave the EU? Including a number of SNP MSPs.

btw, latest poll this month, Survation Yes 46% (+3). Given the collapse of the oil price and the relentless Nat-bashing barrage from the media (and you on any random thread you can shoehorn your condescension into), that's pretty solid. :wink:

It's pretty telling that you consider it noteworthy to criticise me for expressing a contrary opinion - regardless of the number of threads I do it on. In fact I have only recently started posting on these themes again. Yessers seem to have real difficulty tolerating dissenting voices to the approved line.

I can see a Survation poll showing Yes at 42% but perhaps there's been another. Sturgeon clearly doesn't fancy it any time soon. Can't see it being her choice after the next SP elections.

[RyeSloan]

The vow starts off as follows,

The Scottish Parliament is permanent. That's the lie, as shown by the supreme court.

Take away all the other promises on jobs, pensions, renewables, oil bonanza, ship orders etc, our parliament is based on whether Westminster decides if it should stay open at all.

Stay, they said, you're an equal partner they said, lead the Uk, don't leave, your EU membership is safe if you vote NO, they said.

Then, David Cameron, the morning after the vote came out with EVEL.


Hee hee I knew you would be along at some point with a balanced, objective viewpoint [emoji12]

My post was specifically asking about what promises the vow made and which were broken...not sure the vast majority of your post was found in the vow.

But on a serous tip what was the Supreme Court ruling you mention? Not sure I caught that whatever and whenever it happened.

[Bristolhibby]

From the Independent.

“The best way to judge the scale of the constitutional crisis in Spain is to transpose it, albeit imperfectly, to a UK context. Imagine, then, a world where Theresa May orders in police and soldiers to raid Scottish government’s offices in Edinburgh, arresting 14 senior officials in the process, and seizing independence referendum materials. Then the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, declares the financial “credit” Scottish-based agencies can receive from UK-wide entities to pay wages and order supplies is suspended, and they require Edinburgh to seek HM Treasury approval for all non-essential Scottish government spending.

Then there’s a broadcast by the Prime Minister calling Nicola Sturgeon’s unofficial referendum illegal and urging her to end her “escalation of radicalism and disobedience”, adding a threat of jail for postal workers and local authorities if they have anything to do with the regional referendum.”

J

[ronaldo7]

Hee hee I knew you would be along at some point with a balanced, objective viewpoint [emoji12]

My post was specifically asking about what promises the vow made and which were broken...not sure the vast majority of your post was found in the vow.

But on a serous tip what was the Supreme Court ruling you mention? Not sure I caught that whatever and whenever it happened.

That why I said take away the rest.:greengrin

Some reading here regarding the sewel convention, and the law in which it pertains to the Scottish Parliament. Decipher as you wish.:wink:

https://devolutionmatters.wordpress.com/the-sewel-convention/

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0196-judgment.pdf

[RyeSloan]

That why I said take away the rest.:greengrin

Some reading here regarding the sewel convention, and the law in which it pertains to the Scottish Parliament. Decipher as you wish.:wink:

https://devolutionmatters.wordpress.com/the-sewel-convention/

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0196-judgment.pdf

Cool. So if I understand this correctly,
technically the UK government could repatriate all powers without the consent of the Scottish parliament...thus killing said parliament.

And this appears to have been decided in 2017 by a court (although indirectly as it wasn't the main chat in the case) after an interpretation of the legislation that actually attempted to strengthen the parliaments position by legislating for its permanence through protecting any change of devolved powers as requiring the acquiesce of the devolved parliament in 2016?

So I'm not sure how this directly relates to the vow in 2014...seems to me that in the real world the Scottish parliament is as permanent a political institution as other main parliaments in Europe and beyond. And the legal status has simply been subject to some poorly written legislation, not nefarious lies by three politicians in 2014

Getting bothered about that all seems a bit of a stretch to me to say the least but maybe I'm not understanding it correctly at all [emoji23]

[pacoluna]

BBC show Rafael Nadal telling everyone how important catalonia is to Spain yet fail to mention the statement released by the worlds biggest football team barca. Partial steps taking already by the BBC.

[Bishop Hibee]

BBC show Rafael Nadal telling everyone how important catalonia is to Spain yet fail to mention the statement released by the worlds biggest football team barca. Partial steps taking already by the BBC.

I thought they balanced it with the protestors but it did smack of "lets find a famous Spanish person and see what they think." Strange that Nadal was born in the Balearic Isles but supports Real Madrid as the natives speak Catalan.

The whole way the Spanish government is dealing with this issue actually reflects very well on UK democracy and how the indy ref was handled in spite of the, in my opinion, bias shown to the No side. It's well seen that Spain was a dictatorship until 1975. Plenty Spanish conservative factions who are happy to put the boot in to the Catalans.

[snooky]

Dontcha just love bully democracy?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41346839

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

From the Independent.

“The best way to judge the scale of the constitutional crisis in Spain is to transpose it, albeit imperfectly, to a UK context. Imagine, then, a world where Theresa May orders in police and soldiers to raid Scottish government’s offices in Edinburgh, arresting 14 senior officials in the process, and seizing independence referendum materials. Then the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, declares the financial “credit” Scottish-based agencies can receive from UK-wide entities to pay wages and order supplies is suspended, and they require Edinburgh to seek HM Treasury approval for all non-essential Scottish government spending.

Then there’s a broadcast by the Prime Minister calling Nicola Sturgeon’s unofficial referendum illegal and urging her to end her “escalation of radicalism and disobedience”, adding a threat of jail for postal workers and local authorities if they have anything to do with the regional referendum.”

J

Good quote, and a good way of looking at it.

The Spanish really are handling this very badly - petrol on the flames. I hope Catalans get what they want.

As a general ref point though, after the brexit vote, i would consider that some kind of winning margin needs to be put in place if status quo is to change. I used to be a 50+1 believer, but now im not so sure it works?

[ronaldo7]

Cool. So if I understand this correctly,
technically the UK government could repatriate all powers without the consent of the Scottish parliament...thus killing said parliament.

And this appears to have been decided in 2017 by a court (although indirectly as it wasn't the main chat in the case) after an interpretation of the legislation that actually attempted to strengthen the parliaments position by legislating for its permanence through protecting any change of devolved powers as requiring the acquiesce of the devolved parliament in 2016?

So I'm not sure how this directly relates to the vow in 2014...seems to me that in the real world the Scottish parliament is as permanent a political institution as other main parliaments in Europe and beyond. And the legal status has simply been subject to some poorly written legislation, not nefarious lies by three politicians in 2014

Getting bothered about that all seems a bit of a stretch to me to say the least but maybe I'm not understanding it correctly at all [emoji23]

That about covers it, the parliament of Wallonia has more clout at the moment, than ours.


Some more info for you to peruse :greengrin It's 30 minutes long, but sections 3 and 4 are interesting.:wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgONEcyB0Ic

Catalonia shows what can happen when people get above their station eh. The established order must be preserved.

Madrid/London win.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good write up on how the current drive for Catalan independence came about and Spain's role in making that happen.

https://nationalismstudies.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/the-indissoluble-unity-of-the-spanish-nation/

[One Day Soon]

That about covers it, the parliament of Wallonia has more clout at the moment, than ours.


Some more info for you to peruse :greengrin It's 30 minutes long, but sections 3 and 4 are interesting.:wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgONEcyB0Ic

Catalonia shows what can happen when people get above their station eh. The established order must be preserved.

Madrid/London win.


That video is comedy gold. Nothing about the secret oilfields though? :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

It's pretty telling that you consider it noteworthy to criticise me for expressing a contrary opinion - regardless of the number of threads I do it on. In fact I have only recently started posting on these themes again. Yessers seem to have real difficulty tolerating dissenting voices to the approved line.

I can see a Survation poll showing Yes at 42% but perhaps there's been another. Sturgeon clearly doesn't fancy it any time soon. Can't see it being her choice after the next SP elections.

I have no problem arguing/discussing pro and anti Indy on here (probably v boringly but ho hum) with all sorts of unionists from GB Young and his British identity to SSideHB's jaded post-Yes cynicism. You are special because you pull the issue into all sorts of random Hibs threads, eg. last week on the need (or not) for a review of SFA governance vis a vis the Huns, you pile in with an attempt to blame the Scottish government (ffs!) No takers - surprise, surprise. Your arguments are predictable, one dimensional Nat bashing and add (imo) nothing to the debate on here, which is in parts pretty good.

Survation poll is here, with up to date fieldwork: http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Final-SDM-VI-Tables-1c0d1h6-080917MBJRFSTJNHCH-I.pdf

... and I know you're not interested but for the record ... I dissent from the SNP line on monarchy, ridiculous post-Indy plans for stupidly inflated conventional military, was never keen on currency union, wish the Scottish government would be bolder on land reform and inequality and probably umpteen other things. Doesn't change the basic principle that the people who live in Scotland should govern it.

[One Day Soon]

I have no problem arguing/discussing pro and anti Indy on here (probably v boringly but ho hum) with all sorts of unionists from GB Young and his British identity to SSideHB's jaded post-Yes cynicism. You are special because you pull the issue into all sorts of random Hibs threads, eg. last week on the need (or not) for a review of SFA governance vis a vis the Huns, you pile in with an attempt to blame the Scottish government (ffs!) No takers - surprise, surprise. Your arguments are predictable, one dimensional Nat bashing and add (imo) nothing to the debate on here, which is in parts pretty good.

Survation poll is here, with up to date fieldwork: http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Final-SDM-VI-Tables-1c0d1h6-080917MBJRFSTJNHCH-I.pdf

... and I know you're not interested but for the record ... I dissent from the SNP line on monarchy, ridiculous post-Indy plans for stupidly inflated conventional military, was never keen on currency union, wish the Scottish government would be bolder on land reform and inequality and probably umpteen other things. Doesn't change the basic principle that the people who live in Scotland should govern it.


I appreciate you taking the time to respond like that - though perhaps not the pejorative nature of some of your comments.

You've taken the figure in that poll which excludes all undecided and refused to say respondents. I could be wrong but I think that inflates the value of Yes respondents does it not? The poll trends for Yes and SNP are all heading in the other direction, unless I'm missing something - though I don't pay that close attention to polls so I could be wrong tbf.

I think the reason you are sensitive to my raising the Scottish Government's failure to intervene on SFA governance is because a) it is a legitimate point and they are vulnerable on it and because b) Yessers don't like to have the Scottish Government exposed for its failings and certainly not in contexts where others generally less politically interested might be inclined to agree with the criticism. For the record I'll carry on posting wherever I think it is relevant to do so unless an admin prick advises me not to, as I imagine most other posters do.

To contextualise further, politicians in the UK parliament have not been slow to jump on the EFA publicly over their incompetent conduct in relation to the former England Women's team manager. Up here we have a staggering mess at the SFA in relation to both the former Rangers and current The Rangers and in relation to ongoing sectarian singing. The Scottish Government - which is not slow to make its mouth go whenever it thinks there are votes to be had in most other situations (it even has time to make formal statements about the internal constitutional issues of a separate sovereign state - Spain) - is deafeningly silent about the mess that is Scottish football. The Justice Minster was all over the 2016 Cup Final pitch invasion (frankly a very minor although visible public order issue) with public statements - but on something cancerous at the heart of our game over which the presiding body looks utterly compromised there's not a cheap from Scottish Government. I think that's pretty staggering. I'll not exempt the other parties in the Parliament from this either - but they aren't the ones holding Ministerial office.

You're entitled to think what you like about my arguments. I notice however that is generally regarded as acceptable by Nat and Yes posters to make predictable, one dimensional attacks on all other parties and that's ok. But criticise the SNP and we're into untouchable territory. Its fairly textbook play the man not the ball stuff.

I'm not sure which SNP line on the Monarchy you dissent from - the official line that we'd keep the queen after the Indyref or the below the line spin that of course we wouldn't that was just window dressing for monarchists.

None of the above changes the basic principle that the people who live in Scotland do govern it - they just choose to pool their sovereignty with the rest of the UK so that some decisions are made at UK level and some are made at Scotland level. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond like that - though perhaps not the pejorative nature of some of your comments.

You've taken the figure in that poll which excludes all undecided and refused to say respondents. I could be wrong but I think that inflates the value of Yes respondents does it not? The poll trends for Yes and SNP are all heading in the other direction, unless I'm missing something - though I don't pay that close attention to polls so I could be wrong tbf.


Quoting results excluding DKs is the best direct comparison with how everybody knows the 2014 result. 45-55 then vs 46-54 in that poll. Both sides values are therefore inflated.

The poll trend for Indy has been remarkably steady. There was some small movement towards Y following the referendum and a brief Yes lead immediately after Brexit which turned out to be a blip. It's settled back to a range a couple of points either side of the Indyref result and stayed there. Polling suggests about 10% of each side's vote have switched to the other.

The SNP have definitely lost ground from historic highs. I think the hardcore Unionist vote and some of the pro-Brexit former Indy supporters have coalesced around the Tories and there was some movement to Labour among left leaning voters resulting from Corbyn's election surge. Given that background, the Yes vote holding up is very encouraging albeit it's worrying that Holyrood has a fair chance of losing its pro-Indy majority if the SNP don't get some kind of revival underway.



I think the reason you are sensitive to my raising the Scottish Government's failure to intervene on SFA governance is because a) it is a legitimate point and they are vulnerable on it and because b) Yessers don't like to have the Scottish Government exposed for its failings and certainly not in contexts where others generally less politically interested might be inclined to agree with the criticism. For the record I'll carry on posting wherever I think it is relevant to do so unless an admin prick advises me not to, as I imagine most other posters do.


Nope, I don't think it's legitimate and I don't think the SG is remotely vulnerable on it. I don't think the SFA should require government intervention nor do I think there is even a tiny amount of public pressure for them to do so. Apart from anything else, the international organisations the SFA answers to expressly forbid any state interference. Your attempt to drag them into it (which notably drew zero response afaics) struck me as particularly desperate stuff.

They could be vulnerable on the offensive behaviour thing because I think they've made a right mess of it but I don't think anyone's really paying that much attention, apart from a core of Celtc and Sevco fans who want to offend one another, and attempting to repeal it lays the opposition open to the charge of being soft on bigots.



To contextualise further, politicians in the UK parliament have not been slow to jump on the EFA publicly over their incompetent conduct in relation to the former England Women's team manager. Up here we have a staggering mess at the SFA in relation to both the former Rangers and current The Rangers and in relation to ongoing sectarian singing. The Scottish Government - which is not slow to make its mouth go whenever it thinks there are votes to be had in most other situations (it even has time to make formal statements about the internal constitutional issues of a separate sovereign state - Spain) - is deafeningly silent about the mess that is Scottish football. The Justice Minster was all over the 2016 Cup Final pitch invasion (frankly a very minor although visible public order issue) with public statements - but on something cancerous at the heart of our game over which the presiding body looks utterly compromised there's not a cheap from Scottish Government. I think that's pretty staggering. I'll not exempt the other parties in the Parliament from this either - but they aren't the ones holding Ministerial office.


Simple. They stay out of football where possible because they are **** scared of getting involved in perceived sectarian side taking. Actually that's fairly typical of the SNP's main failing in my eyes (although I understand the strategy), an unwillingness to even slightly rock any boats this side of independence. Although imo there is no need for them to get involved in the Huns thing - that's just a straightforward failure of the SFA to follow its own rules - they could have done a far better job on the sectarianism front.



You're entitled to think what you like about my arguments. I notice however that is generally regarded as acceptable by Nat and Yes posters to make predictable, one dimensional attacks on all other parties and that's ok. But criticise the SNP and we're into untouchable territory. Its fairly textbook play the man not the ball stuff.


"But, but, but, what about what *they* did?"



I'm not sure which SNP line on the Monarchy you dissent from - the official line that we'd keep the queen after the Indyref or the below the line spin that of course we wouldn't that was just window dressing for monarchists.


I'd like to get the guillotine out, tbh, :wink:



None of the above changes the basic principle that the people who live in Scotland do govern it - they just choose to pool their sovereignty with the rest of the UK so that some decisions are made at UK level and some are made at Scotland level. :wink:

If you view giving up 100% of your sovereignty to your neighbour as "pooling" then fair enough.

[Beefster]

If you view giving up 100% of your sovereignty to your neighbour as "pooling" then fair enough.

Unless something pretty big happened this morning and I’ve just not caught up, we don’t have the UK as a neighbour any more than the EU is [currently] a neighbour.

[JeMeSouviens]

Unless something pretty big happened this morning and I’ve just not caught up, we don’t have the UK as a neighbour any more than the EU is [currently] a neighbour.

If you get in bed with an elephant, it decides how much space you get, whatever the "pooled" arrangements for decision making were.

[Beefster]

If you get in bed with an elephant, it decides how much space you get, whatever the "pooled" arrangements for decision making were.

Depends on whether you get a friendly elephant or not, I suppose. Dumbo would make sure you had enough room before lying down, I’d wager.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I have no problem arguing/discussing pro and anti Indy on here (probably v boringly but ho hum) with all sorts of unionists from GB Young and his British identity to SSideHB's jaded post-Yes cynicism. You are special because you pull the issue into all sorts of random Hibs threads, eg. last week on the need (or not) for a review of SFA governance vis a vis the Huns, you pile in with an attempt to blame the Scottish government (ffs!) No takers - surprise, surprise. Your arguments are predictable, one dimensional Nat bashing and add (imo) nothing to the debate on here, which is in parts pretty good.

Survation poll is here, with up to date fieldwork: http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Final-SDM-VI-Tables-1c0d1h6-080917MBJRFSTJNHCH-I.pdf

... and I know you're not interested but for the record ... I dissent from the SNP line on monarchy, ridiculous post-Indy plans for stupidly inflated conventional military, was never keen on currency union, wish the Scottish government would be bolder on land reform and inequality and probably umpteen other things. Doesn't change the basic principle that the people who live in Scotland should govern it.

A jaded, post-yes cynic - very accurate JMS!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If you get in bed with an elephant, it decides how much space you get, whatever the "pooled" arrangements for decision making were.

Is that a pro-Brexit point... 😁

Notwistanding the quality of the discussion that you and ODS are having, i do find it a little sad and jading (😉) that a genuinely interesting, and possibly worrying issues in a friendly , neighbouring country that almost all of us will be very familiar with, is dragged into a yes/no argument.

Scotland's constitutional future has been settled for the short to medium term, why cant we all (not a dig at you) stop viewing everything through yes/no prism?

[marinello59]

Is that a pro-Brexit point... 😁

Notwistanding the quality of the discussion that you and ODS are having, i do find it a little sad and jading (😉) that a genuinely interesting, and possibly worrying issues in a friendly , neighbouring country that almost all of us will be very familiar with, is dragged into a yes/no argument.

Scotland's constitutional future has been settled for the short to medium term, why cant we all stop viewing everything through yes/no prism?

Amen to that.

[ronaldo7]

Amen to that.

Aye, let's just move on.

[IberianHibernian]

Interesting to read opinions on Catalan situation here . Inevitably opinion that Catalans are being denied democratic right to a referendum in which a majority would vote for independence seems to be the general opinion here . I say inevitably because people in Scotland are obviously more aware of independence debates than most other Europeans . I`m a lifelong Scottish nationalist but have lived more time in Spain ( though never in Catalonia though I have visited Catalonia many times and have spoken to many Catalans over the years ) than in Scotland and think it`s a massive oversimplification to describe present situation as repression from Madrid against Catalan nationalism . There are many other factors to consider - significant number of Catalans ( I don`t know % , who does ? ) who are very comfortable being Catalan and Spanish but can`t express their views in public , cases of corruption involving families with powerful links with Catalan nationalist parties ( and cases of corruption in parties which are represented all over Spain - both sides of independence debate have used debate to deflect attention from their fraudulent activity ) . Noone really knows what will happen in the next 2 weeks except that there will be some sort of symbolic referendum on 1st October ( just as there was 2 years ago ) . Both sides ( Catalan nationalists in power in Catalan parliament and Spanish government in Madrid ( which includes a lot of Catalans ) could probably have handled the whole affair better and hopefully the situation will not get out of hand . As a Scottish nationalist I sincerely hope Scottish nationalists distance themselves from Catalan situation as I think situation is too complex and similarities are not as clear as some would think .

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Interesting to read opinions on Catalan situation here . Inevitably opinion that Catalans are being denied democratic right to a referendum in which a majority would vote for independence seems to be the general opinion here . I say inevitably because people in Scotland are obviously more aware of independence debates than most other Europeans . I`m a lifelong Scottish nationalist but have lived more time in Spain ( though never in Catalonia though I have visited Catalonia many times and have spoken to many Catalans over the years ) than in Scotland and think it`s a massive oversimplification to describe present situation as repression from Madrid against Catalan nationalism . There are many other factors to consider - significant number of Catalans ( I don`t know % , who does ? ) who are very comfortable being Catalan and Spanish but can`t express their views in public , cases of corruption involving families with powerful links with Catalan nationalist parties ( and cases of corruption in parties which are represented all over Spain - both sides of independence debate have used debate to deflect attention from their fraudulent activity ) . Noone really knows what will happen in the next 2 weeks except that there will be some sort of symbolic referendum on 1st October ( just as there was 2 years ago ) . Both sides ( Catalan nationalists in power in Catalan parliament and Spanish government in Madrid ( which includes a lot of Catalans ) could probably have handled the whole affair better and hopefully the situation will not get out of hand . As a Scottish nationalist I sincerely hope Scottish nationalists distance themselves from Catalan situation as I think situation is too complex and similarities are not as clear as some would think .

Good post. Im ot sure your nuance and insight will work too well, because obviously every political situatiob can be resuced to a binary seps v britnats choice.

But its interesting to read your view.

I spoke to a spanish lady through my work about it, and was shocked by fhe level of intransigence and vitriol she showed, and she is an educated lady who works in and around politics - so im not surprised its not as simple as all that.

[One Day Soon]

Quoting results excluding DKs is the best direct comparison with how everybody knows the 2014 result. 45-55 then vs 46-54 in that poll. Both sides values are therefore inflated.

The poll trend for Indy has been remarkably steady. There was some small movement towards Y following the referendum and a brief Yes lead immediately after Brexit which turned out to be a blip. It's settled back to a range a couple of points either side of the Indyref result and stayed there. Polling suggests about 10% of each side's vote have switched to the other.

The SNP have definitely lost ground from historic highs. I think the hardcore Unionist vote and some of the pro-Brexit former Indy supporters have coalesced around the Tories and there was some movement to Labour among left leaning voters resulting from Corbyn's election surge. Given that background, the Yes vote holding up is very encouraging albeit it's worrying that Holyrood has a fair chance of losing its pro-Indy majority if the SNP don't get some kind of revival underway.



Nope, I don't think it's legitimate and I don't think the SG is remotely vulnerable on it. I don't think the SFA should require government intervention nor do I think there is even a tiny amount of public pressure for them to do so. Apart from anything else, the international organisations the SFA answers to expressly forbid any state interference. Your attempt to drag them into it (which notably drew zero response afaics) struck me as particularly desperate stuff.

They could be vulnerable on the offensive behaviour thing because I think they've made a right mess of it but I don't think anyone's really paying that much attention, apart from a core of Celtc and Sevco fans who want to offend one another, and attempting to repeal it lays the opposition open to the charge of being soft on bigots.



Simple. They stay out of football where possible because they are **** scared of getting involved in perceived sectarian side taking. Actually that's fairly typical of the SNP's main failing in my eyes (although I understand the strategy), an unwillingness to even slightly rock any boats this side of independence. Although imo there is no need for them to get involved in the Huns thing - that's just a straightforward failure of the SFA to follow its own rules - they could have done a far better job on the sectarianism front.



"But, but, but, what about what *they* did?"



I'd like to get the guillotine out, tbh, :wink:



If you view giving up 100% of your sovereignty to your neighbour as "pooling" then fair enough.


To be clear JMS, I am not the one complaining about this. There's no "But, but, but, what about what *they* did?" from me because I have no problem with Yessers or whoever having a go at their opponents. In fact if we don't have that we don't have any debate.

Getting back on topic, I don't see how the Spanish government can allow an illegal referendum to go ahead in Catalonia:

1. It breaks the rule of law - so what other laws is it then okay to break?

2. If it goes ahead are they then bound by the result?

3. If this is allowed to go ahead a precedent is then set for the Basques and a whole host of other Spanish secessionist movements to host illegal referendums too.

I'm not sure it was too astute a tactical move for Scottish Government to make statements about this either. Partly because as IberianHibernian has said it is a complex picture but more importantly for the following reason. If Indyref2 happens at some stage in the future then the question of possible Scottish membership of the EU will re-emerge The Spanish are not going to be shy about settling debts on this one. Bearing in mind their increased seniority within the EU following UK departure, their public stance and their internal influence on the EU position is going to be all the harder for Yes to finesse.

In fact if this all ends in a separate Catalonia then a whole bunch of separatist movements are going to be encouraged across a range of EU nations - and I suspect that will mean an even tougher EU line for an independent Catalonia.

To disappear into one dimension of this, I'm sure Real Madrid would be just fine within a La Liga that did not include Barcelona but what would happen to Barca (and Espanyol) if the Spanish decided to take Catalonian independence really badly?

[JeMeSouviens]

To be clear JMS, I am not the one complaining about this. There's no "But, but, but, what about what *they* did?" from me because I have no problem with Yessers or whoever having a go at their opponents. In fact if we don't have that we don't have any debate.


Ok, that's cool. I suppose I was a bit moany, of course you have every right to Nat-bash as much as and wherever you like albeit it comes across as contrived, mostly high handed and belittling to me.



Getting back on topic, I don't see how the Spanish government can allow an illegal referendum to go ahead in Catalonia:

1. It breaks the rule of law - so what other laws is it then okay to break?


Hmmm, I'm not particularly impressed with "it's the law" as an argument either in the general sense or the specifics. Rosa Parks, Pastor Niemoeller, Nelson Mandela etc etc. These were obviously bad laws that deserved to be broken. None would have changed without civil unrest and/or violence.

The Spanish constitution was written at a time when the Spanish military were very much poised to regain control if they felt the need. And indeed some of them tried in 1981. The Catalan and Spanish governments negotiated further autonomy and recognition of Catalonia as a nation within Spain in 2006. This was endorsed in a referendum recognised by both sides and approved by the Spanish and Catalan parliaments. It was then struck down at the behest of the PP by the Spanish constitutional court (by judges with PP affiliations aiui).

It was following that that massive numbers took to the streets in protest for the 2012 "diada", a turnout which took everybody by suprise. And it was only after that that Catalan political leaders started pushing for a referendum (although as stated by others the timing was convenient for Artur Mas to deflect from allegations of corruption). They have spent almost 5 years campaigning to be allowed to hold a legally agreed referendum and Spain has just refused to engage in any dialogue whatsoever.

Support for independence has been more or less 50-50 for a few years but what's not in doubt is support for a referendum to be held, which regularly polls at around 70-80%.

What would you propose the Catalan independentists should do?



2. If it goes ahead are they then bound by the result?

3. If this is allowed to go ahead a precedent is then set for the Basques and a whole host of other Spanish secessionist movements to host illegal referendums too.


Because the standoff has been allowed to develop to this point, it's extremely hard to plot a reasonable path out of it. I don't think the EU or its member states will recognise an independent Catalonia, so Spanish rule will be re-imposed. I just hope that can be done peacefully. Where they go from there is anyone's guess? I hope pressure can be brought to bear on Spain (without bloodshed) to concede an agreed referendum.



I'm not sure it was too astute a tactical move for Scottish Government to make statements about this either. Partly because as IberianHibernian has said it is a complex picture but more importantly for the following reason. If Indyref2 happens at some stage in the future then the question of possible Scottish membership of the EU will re-emerge The Spanish are not going to be shy about settling debts on this one. Bearing in mind their increased seniority within the EU following UK departure, their public stance and their internal influence on the EU position is going to be all the harder for Yes to finesse.


They're between a rock and a hard place on this. Not supporting Catalonia's right to decide would be a sellout but I agree on the likely implications.



In fact if this all ends in a separate Catalonia then a whole bunch of separatist movements are going to be encouraged across a range of EU nations - and I suspect that will mean an even tougher EU line for an independent Catalonia.

To disappear into one dimension of this, I'm sure Real Madrid would be just fine within a La Liga that did not include Barcelona but what would happen to Barca (and Espanyol) if the Spanish decided to take Catalonian independence really badly?

Losing Barca would have a big effect on Madrid. (Though obv not as huge as the effect on Barca of playing in a Catalan league). Spanish teams sell their own tv rights and without the Clasicos these would be significantly diminished. La Liga is probably currently top dog among Europe's leagues and while it would still have loads of big clubs, it's not too hard to imagine it dropping below others in the pecking order. Once that happens (as with Serie A after dominating in the 90s) you start to lose the ability to attract the cream of international talent.

Keeping Barca and Madrid together might be what eventually breaks open UEFA sanctioned cross border leagues.

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest poll on eldiario.es has 83% yes on a 63% turnout.

That would be an actual majority of the electorate (better than either the No side in indyref or Leave in brexit).

If they can get to the polls in peace ...

Edit: actually I think it’s 83% support an agreed referendum. No habla Espanol :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Latest poll on eldiario.es has 83% yes on a 63% turnout.

That would be an actual majority of the electorate (better than either the No side in indyref or Leave in brexit).

If they can get to the polls in peace ...

Edit: actually I think it’s 83% support an agreed referendum. No habla Espanol :greengrin

Or Catalan.... 😉

[heretoday]

Good luck to them. Boring old Spain. It's not the same as our situation though. Smaller country for a start.

[Mr Grieves]

The Spanish government aren't holding back - rubber bullets, police brutality, storming polling stations to confiscate ballot boxes, shutting down internet access to polling stations. No matter what you think of the referendum, this ain't a good look for a democracy.

[IGRIGI]

And still not a peep from the Galactic Empire esque EU

[Pretty Boy]

It's getting a bit scary now.

Whatever your opinion on the referendum the pictures coming from Catalonia don't look good. The image of the fire service protecting civilians from the Police was heartening though.

[Peevemor]

It's getting a bit scary now.

Whatever your opinion on the referendum the pictures coming from Catalonia don't look good. The image of the fire service protecting civilians from the Police was heartening though.
Heartening but not surprising. Almost 30 years ago I was in Galicia to play at a festival and, being fairly ignorant of Spanish politics, was amazed to see the animosity shown by the state police. The municipal police warned us to be careful at night on the streets and became pretty much our private taxi service, while the state police would literally gob on us from the back of their trucks as they drove past.

The state police were basically under orders to undermine the festival and were looking for any excuse to lift anyone involved.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

They really are inflaming the situation.

I get that the vote is 'illegal', but there are umpteen ways they could deal with that better than acting like a third world dictatorship.

[Pretty Boy]

Barcelona game today to be played behind closed doors.

[The_Exile]

Barcelona game today to be played behind closed doors.

La Liga showing their class by refusing to postpone the game. Shameful.

[snooky]

They really are inflaming the situation.

I get that the vote is 'illegal', but there are umpteen ways they could deal with that better than acting like a third world dictatorship.

And we used to sing Viva Espana. :ill:

[Pete]

Pictures look pretty shocking with nearly 400 injured. Wading into polling stations with paramilitaries, wtf?

As previously said, this surely could have been handled better.

[Moulin Yarns]

Casualties now over 450.

[One Day Soon]

What a fricken mess.

I think both sides in this have covered themselves in crap. That said, I'm really not sure what either side could be doing differently. You shouldn't be holding illegal referendums and equally you shouldn't be breaking up illegal referendums in ways that injure people.

Thank god it's not here.

[Bristolhibby]

Local police fighting against Madrid’s storm troopers.

No Pasaran!

This is bat**** crazy! Let them vote.

J

[Bristolhibby]

What a fricken mess.

I think both sides in this have covered themselves in crap. That said, I'm really not sure what either side could be doing differently. You shouldn't be holding illegal referendums and equally you shouldn't be breaking up illegal referendums in ways that injure people.

Thank god it's not here.

How can they pray tell, hold a legal referendum when Madrid will not allow a referendum to EVER take place?

No option IMHO.

J

[snooky]

Surely they could let them have a referendum, legal or not, and whatever the result the Spanish government could say "So what?" Nae need for this. The worms are out the jar, big time.
I wonder how the Basques are viewing this? Maybe that's part of the reason for the Spanish government's crazy action.

[One Day Soon]

How can they pray tell, hold a legal referendum when Madrid will not allow a referendum to EVER take place?

No option IMHO.

J

They either uphold the law and want others to or they don't. Otherwise its a free for all in picking which laws to observe.

If they have no option what is to stop all the other secessionist movements in Spain - and there are many - from also holding illegal referendums? And what is Spain supposed to do with the result of this and any others that are held?

[Glory Lurker]

They either uphold the law and want others to or they don't. Otherwise its a free for all in picking which laws to observe.

If they have no option what is to stop all the other secessionist movements in Spain - and there are many - from also holding illegal referendums? And what is Spain supposed to do with the result of this and any others that are held?

They could always ignore them as illegitimate? Better than firing plastic bullets.

[One Day Soon]

Surely they could let them have a referendum, legal or not, and whatever the result the Spanish government could say "So what?" Nae need for this. The worms are out the jar, big time.
I wonder how the Basques are viewing this? Maybe that's part of the reason for the Spanish government's crazy action.


I think the Catalans are crazy for going this path knowing what the Spanish reaction would be and I think the Spanish government is crazy for enforcing it this way knowing what the Catalan reaction will be.

Not just the Basques - there are a whole bunch of other regional separatist movements in the queue too. Perhaps the rest of Europe could learn a thing or two from the Germans and their federated structure. The global economic future is going to be competition between city regions not states, so organising on that basis within federated structures makes a lot more sense - and would perhaps offer a way forward for Catalonia among others.

Not sure the Spanish govt could just say 'so what' BTW, the Catalonian leader had apparently said he could declare independence within days of the referendum - and that would be a troops on the streets situation I think...

[One Day Soon]

They could always ignore them as illegitimate? Better than firing plastic bullets.


Perhaps, but threat of declaration of UDI kind of kneecaps that path. In fact in some ways it might even be more violent.

Underlines a particular point for me - the calibre of Western politicians right now seems to be at its very lowest just at the time when we face the biggest set of crises and most need good leadership.

[CropleyWasGod]

They either uphold the law and want others to or they don't. Otherwise its a free for all in picking which laws to observe.

If they have no option what is to stop all the other secessionist movements in Spain - and there are many - from also holding illegal referendums? And what is Spain supposed to do with the result of this and any others that are held?They ignore them, as their laws dictate. And they prosecute those who broke the law.

All they are succeeding in doing now is encouraging support and sympathy, both in Spain and elsewhere, for the separatist causes.

Edit... you've answered that [emoji6]

[Bristolhibby]

So can anyone answer what the Catelonians are supposed to do? They have a mandate through their local regional elections to have the referendum, yet Madrid puts its fingers in its ears and cracks skulls.

Self determination is the right of every people.

Bringing the storm troopers in, battering women and people peacefully trying to exercise their democratic right is mental. Regional Police fighting National storm troopers. All that’s doing is killing any moderates. It’s us and them now.

J

[Glory Lurker]

Perhaps, but threat of declaration of UDI kind of kneecaps that path. In fact in some ways it might even be more violent.



That's all assuming yes won. Tell the no voters to take part and - probably - yes loses . Spain's trenchant aversion to self determination has blinded Madrid in this.

[Bristolhibby]

They ignore them, as their laws dictate. And they prosecute those who broke the law.

All they are succeeding in doing now is encouraging support and sympathy, both in Spain and elsewhere, for the separatist causes.

Edit... you've answered that [emoji6]

When did Voting become breaking the law?

"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

J

[CropleyWasGod]

When did Voting become breaking the law?

"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

JWhen Spain put it in its Constitution...... someone will tell us when that was, presumably after the Civil War.?

Right now, though, Spain are piling one moral injustice on top of another

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think the Catalans are crazy for going this path knowing what the Spanish reaction would be and I think the Spanish government is crazy for enforcing it this way knowing what the Catalan reaction will be.

Not just the Basques - there are a whole bunch of other regional separatist movements in the queue too. Perhaps the rest of Europe could learn a thing or two from the Germans and their federated structure. The global economic future is going to be competition between city regions not states, so organising on that basis within federated structures makes a lot more sense - and would perhaps offer a way forward for Catalonia among others.

Not sure the Spanish govt could just say 'so what' BTW, the Catalonian leader had apparently said he could declare independence within days of the referendum - and that would be a troops on the streets situation I think...

Agree with your point about federated structures, but i disagree that they couldnt just ignore it.

Also they should have called the bluff of the universal declaration of independence- let him call it, knowimg that other countries wont recognise, that around 50% (maybe more) of the catalan population would be furious, and that the vote was illegal.

This is just stupid, and if i were a no voting catalan, im fairly sure id now be a yes voting catalan.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So can anyone answer what the Catelonians are supposed to do? They have a mandate through their local regional elections to have the referendum, yet Madrid puts its fingers in its ears and cracks skulls.

Self determination is the right of every people.

Bringing the storm troopers in, battering women and people peacefully trying to exercise their democratic right is mental. Regional Police fighting National storm troopers. All that’s doing is killing any moderates. It’s us and them now.

J

I agree its polaraising.

Whether or not the catalans shpuld or shpuld not have held the vote seems a pointless discussion now. That was a discussion about politics (such as we had) but this is now way bwyond that imo.

Regardless of whether or not tge catalans were right or wrong, rhis seems ridiculous.

[JeMeSouviens]

Or Catalan.... 😉

Si, no parla catala. ;-)

However, the article I was trying to decipher was in Spanish so that was kind of relevant.

[JeMeSouviens]

When Spain put it in its Constitution...... someone will tell us when that was, presumably after the Civil War.?

Right now, though, Spain are piling one moral injustice on top of another

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1978. If Catalans or Basques or anyone else had tried to get a right to secession into that constitution, the army would have (re)taken over Spain tout de suite.

[CropleyWasGod]

1978. If Catalans or Basques or anyone else had tried to get a right to secession into that constitution, the army would have (re)taken over Spain tout de suite.Ta. Post-Franco then... makes sense.

His spirit still stalks the land, it seems.

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[One Day Soon]

1978. If Catalans or Basques or anyone else had tried to get a right to secession into that constitution, the army would have (re)taken over Spain tout de suite.

You don't need a right of secession in your constitution - though I guess it would help. We had neither a constitution nor a right of secession and we've still managed three referendums. What you do need is politicians with some common sense. I'd suggest neither Catalonia nor Spain has these at the minute.

[OxoHibby]

Spain currently looking like Franco has been reincarnated

[Pretty Boy]

It's all getting a bit 1930s isn't it.

An increasingly destabilised Europe, a United Nations that seems somewhat toothless, posturing and flexing of military muscle in the Far East, ideologically opposed superpowers eyeing each other suspiciously, fighting on the streets of Spain and the infinite struggles in the Middle East and North Africa.

I've argued in recent years that the increasing politicisation of the poppy was due to the decreased number of 1st hand accounts of the World Wars available to the current generations in power. People have been allowed to begin to forget the horrors of those wars and what was once a quiet, sensitive act of rememberance has, in my opinion, taken a slightly sinister turn. I can't help but think the same issue is clouding some of the actions and reactions we are seeing in the geopolitical sphere now. We are at a crossroads and decisions made now will determine what kind of world we have left in a generation. I'm not hopeful, another global conflict would be a fitting last hurrah for the boomers generation of politician.

[One Day Soon]

It's all getting a bit 1930s isn't it.

An increasingly destabilised Europe, a United Nations that seems somewhat toothless, posturing and flexing of military muscle in the Far East, ideologically opposed superpowers eyeing each other suspiciously, fighting on the streets of Spain and the infinite struggles in the Middle East and North Africa.

I've argued in recent years that the increasing politicisation of the poppy was due to the decreased number of 1st hand accounts of the World Wars available to the current generations in power. People have been allowed to begin to forget the horrors of those wars and what was once a quiet, sensitive act of rememberance has, in my opinion, taken a slightly sinister turn. I can't help but think the same issue is clouding some of the actions and reactions we are seeing in the geopolitical sphere now. We are at a crossroads and decisions made now will determine what kind of world we have left in a generation. I'm not hopeful, another global conflict would be a fitting last hurrah for the boomers generation of politician.


I could not agree more.

I think I quoted elsewhere the aphorism that 'those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it'.

[Peevemor]

I don't understand why the Spanish government didn't simply wait for the polls to close then seize the ballot boxes and close down the counts.

Getting physical with the public has made them look like they're in the wrong, regardless the legality of the referendum.

[CropleyWasGod]

Rajoy says that a majority of people didn't vote today.

Job done then, boys.

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[Bristolhibby]

Rajoy says that a majority of people didn't vote today.

Job done then, boys.

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Right enough, it’s hard to vote with a split skull in a sacked polling station.

J

[IberianHibernian]

Far too early to say what impact today`s events will have on Catalonia and rest of Europe . Propaganda war at least outside Spain seems to have been won by independence supporters with politicians very careful to seem reasonable with foreign press but comments here about return of Franco etc are just ridiculous and in no way reflect modern Spain whatever lazy British journalists like to say . I don`t know enough about Catalonia to know if they have a good cause for independence but a common opinion in Spain including Catalonia is that the independence movement has been much more sophisticated than other independence movements in Europe with a very strong influence in education in Catalonia in the last 15 years and with control of public services ( even today there has been criticism of limited action by Catalan Police ) . From a Scottish independence point of view think SNP and rest of independence movement would do well to distance themselves from Catalonia .

[Peevemor]

Right enough, it’s hard to vote with a split skull in a sacked polling station.

J
Apparently 25% of the polling stations ended up out of action.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Far too early to say what impact today`s events will have on Catalonia and rest of Europe . Propaganda war at least outside Spain seems to have been won by independence supporters with politicians very careful to seem reasonable with foreign press but comments here about return of Franco etc are just ridiculous and in no way reflect modern Spain whatever lazy British journalists like to say . I don`t know enough about Catalonia to know if they have a good cause for independence but a common opinion in Spain including Catalonia is that the independence movement has been much more sophisticated than other independence movements in Europe with a very strong influence in education in Catalonia in the last 15 years and with control of public services ( even today there has been criticism of limited action by Catalan Police ) . From a Scottish independence point of view think SNP and rest of independence movement would do well to distance themselves from Catalonia .

Watxhing from afar, it definitely seems like that there is an authoritarianism to the Spanish reaction that would happen in few, if any other western european countries. Its hard not to look into the recent past and see a common thread.

[IGRIGI]

Really is hard to understand why the Spanish government has went in so heavy handed, if they had let it go ahead and then ignored it declaring it unconstitutional it would've been forgotten about by next week, now all hell is going to break loose.

[IberianHibernian]

Watxhing from afar, it definitely seems like that there is an authoritarianism to the Spanish reaction that would happen in few, if any other western european countries. Its hard not to look into the recent past and see a common thread.I understand that from afar you would think that but still think references to Franco and 1930s are completely unjustified . Independence movement leaders look happy tonight on TV and have managed to split Catalan society and make people forget corruption cases . Maybe a properly-organised referendum might be the best solution now but I can`t see it happening for several years as it would take ages to change the constitution and at some point Catalans who are opposed to independence are going to start to make themselves heard . That leaves open possibility of declaration of independence after today`s farce which could happen but would surely have no validity - don`t think Spain recognises Kosovo as an independent country yet so doubt she`d be quick to recognise Catalonia after a highly doubtful referendum today .

[IberianHibernian]

Really is hard to understand why the Spanish government has went in so heavy handed, if they had let it go ahead and then ignored it declaring it unconstitutional it would've been forgotten about by next week, now all hell is going to break loose.I think governmemt in Madrid assumed things wouldn`t go so far and by the time they realised vote could really happen had to decide quickly whether to do nothing and allow another vote ( there was something similar in parts of Catalonia a couple of years ago ) which would involve vast sums of public expenditure again or to take firmer action . Worth remembering too that there are images of police being attacked as well and idea that many Catalans including journalists don`t feel free to express anti independence beliefs is being expressed by many . Hopefully things will not get out of control though unfortunately some politicians are probably very happy with today`s events or how they are being reported anyway .

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I understand that from afar you would think that but still think references to Franco and 1930s are completely unjustified . Independence movement leaders look happy tonight on TV and have managed to split Catalan society and make people forget corruption cases . Maybe a properly-organised referendum might be the best solution now but I can`t see it happening for several years as it would take ages to change the constitution and at some point Catalans who are opposed to independence are going to start to make themselves heard . That leaves open possibility of declaration of independence after today`s farce which could happen but would surely have no validity - don`t think Spain recognises Kosovo as an independent country yet so doubt she`d be quick to recognise Catalonia after a highly doubtful referendum today .

Im not arguing as such, you will no more than me amd be far closer and also see the orher side, which im sure will have a valid case too. I suppose i am just very surprised and shocked to see a country i was in not two weeks ago act in a mannsr more in keeping with turkey than a western country.

I dont doubt youre right, but im sure catalan separatists will be rejoicing at the spanish govts reaction. It just seems so unnecessary to me. Petrol on the flames.

There are so many better ways they could have dealth with it. Can you imahine how you would feel if met police officers had marched up to scotland and closed down an advisory referendum jere with scenes of violence amd confrontation?

[IberianHibernian]

Im not arguing as such, you will no more than me amd be far closer and also see the orher side, which im sure will have a valid case too. I suppose i am just very surprised and shocked to see a country i was in not two weeks ago act in a mannsr more in keeping with turkey than a western country.

I dont doubt youre right, but im sure catalan separatists will be rejoicing at the spanish govts reaction. It just seems so unnecessary to me. Petrol on the flames.

There are so many better ways they could have dealth with it. Can you imahine how you would feel if met police officers had marched up to scotland and closed down an advisory referendum jere with scenes of violence amd confrontation?I`m not taking sides on independence question though I`ve heard and read enough to suspect that a noisy minority has managed to get control of parts of press and public institutions and have a huge influence on educational system . Catalans are generally unpopular in the rest of Spain , seen as moneygrabbers who have enjoyed wealth often created by efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain . Catalonia`s prosperous companies rely on the Spanish market and Spaniards will not be slow to boycott Catalan products if necessary ( many already do - simple example , some would prefer to buy expensive champagne than cheap cava at New Year ) . Today`s events won`t help Spain`s international reputation but suspect Catalans of all political colours will be the biggest losers . Hopefully in Scotland the nationalist movement can continue to be a civilised and respectful one .

[superfurryhibby]

I understand that from afar you would think that but still think references to Franco and 1930s are completely unjustified . Independence movement leaders look happy tonight on TV and have managed to split Catalan society and make people forget corruption cases . Maybe a properly-organised referendum might be the best solution now but I can`t see it happening for several years as it would take ages to change the constitution and at some point Catalans who are opposed to independence are going to start to make themselves heard . That leaves open possibility of declaration of independence after today`s farce which could happen but would surely have no validity - don`t think Spain recognises Kosovo as an independent country yet so doubt she`d be quick to recognise Catalonia after a highly doubtful referendum today .

You have obviously missed the reality of what has been happening. People have been brutalised for expressing their views. Split Catalan society....... I think the Spanish state has done more damage than anyone seeking independence. Democracy is at stake in Spain and that concerns any right mindd person. Sickened to the core by recent events and deeply worri d for my Catalan friends and family.

Many older Catalans lived under the Franco regime and believe me, today brings back memories. Forget the 1930's, the state were terrorising people in the 1970's.

[superfurryhibby]

Use your eyes people and make up your own mind. The people of Catalonia want freedom to express their views. The violence perpetrated by the Spanish state is shocking. Heavilly armed police smashing civilians who are protecting their democratic right. These are ordinary people, not rioting anarchists. This is heartbreaking to see unfold.

Democracy is very important to us. Our government allowed a referendum here, we voted no. Imagine if the state had done this in Scotland? No excuse for the terrible deeds of today.

[snooky]

Use your eyes people and make up your own mind. The people of Catalonia want freedom to express their views. The violence perpetrated by the Spanish state is shocking. Heavilly armed police smashing civilians who are protecting their democratic right. These are ordinary people, not rioting anarchists. This is heartbreaking to see unfold.

Democracy is very important to us. Our government allowed a referendum here, we voted no. Imagine if the state had done this in Scotland? No excuse for the terrible deeds of today.

Different times however, food for thought...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square

[snooky]

I`m not taking sides on independence question though I`ve heard and read enough to suspect that a noisy minority has managed to get control of parts of press and public institutions and have a huge influence on educational system . Catalans are generally unpopular in the rest of Spain , seen as moneygrabbers who have enjoyed wealth often created by efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain . Catalonia`s prosperous companies rely on the Spanish market and Spaniards will not be slow to boycott Catalan products if necessary ( many already do - simple example , some would prefer to buy expensive champagne than cheap cava at New Year ) . Today`s events won`t help Spain`s international reputation but suspect Catalans of all political colours will be the biggest losers . Hopefully in Scotland the nationalist movement can continue to be a civilised and respectful one .

Interesting to get your own personal viewpoint on the background on what has lead this horrible situation.
More food for thought.

[GreenLake]

I`m not taking sides on independence question though I`ve heard and read enough to suspect that a noisy minority has managed to get control of parts of press and public institutions and have a huge influence on educational system . Catalans are generally unpopular in the rest of Spain , seen as moneygrabbers who have enjoyed wealth often created by efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain . Catalonia`s prosperous companies rely on the Spanish market and Spaniards will not be slow to boycott Catalan products if necessary ( many already do - simple example , some would prefer to buy expensive champagne than cheap cava at New Year ) . Today`s events won`t help Spain`s international reputation but suspect Catalans of all political colours will be the biggest losers . Hopefully in Scotland the nationalist movement can continue to be a civilised and respectful one .


And I am a Hearts supporter.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.facebook.com/CatalansForYes/photos/a.728313533885380.1073741828.727393710644029/1577412675642124/?type=3

No excuses.

[JeMeSouviens]

You don't need a right of secession in your constitution - though I guess it would help. We had neither a constitution nor a right of secession and we've still managed three referendums. What you do need is politicians with some common sense. I'd suggest neither Catalonia nor Spain has these at the minute.

The Spanish constitution says Spain is “indissoluble”. Even Rajoy’s central government could not call a “legal” (as the PP defines it) referendum in Catalonia without first changing the constitution.

[superfurryhibby]

Interesting to get your own personal viewpoint on the background on what has lead this horrible situation.
More food for thought.

Except that is full of untruths.

The efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain..... The reality is that in the 1950's Franco encouraged people from Andalucia and other parts of the south of Spain to move to Catalonia. There is a huge population of Catalan people whose parents or grandparents did this. The idea was to dilute Catalan influence and in effect it was a plantation of people friendly to the regime. They have prospered by benefitting from the success of the economy, they have hardly been treated like slaves.

The Francoist state banned the Catalan language. I have friends who have had to legally change their name from a Spanish one to their Catalan one, going through a legal process to do this.

There were tens of thousands of people marching in other regions of Spain in support of Democracy. Check of pictures of this from the Basque country.

Finally, the nationalist movement in Catalonia is a civilised and democratic one. They are in power in the Generalitat and are no more extreme than the SNP. To suggest otherwise is to collude with the anti- democratic forces at work in Spain.

I have lived in Catalonia, two of my children are Catalans and my ex and her family are ordinary people, not overtly political. Yesterday my ex was out at her local polling station, alongside half of her town, showing solidarity and defending the right to freedom of thought. To think that these fascists *******s were attacking people like her with batons sickens me to the core.

Think for yourself people. The propaganda coming from Madrid is disgusting. There are still people who were beneficiaries of the Francoist state and continue to have power and influence. The army and Guardia are still instruments of repression and the Madrid elite have fascism on their bloodied hands.

[JeMeSouviens]

... and changing the constitution in Spain requires a 2/3 majority in both chambers of parliament and a Spain wide referendum. A “legal” referendum in Catalonia is to all intents and purposes impossible. Hence why the PP has adopted that as their battle cry.

[JeMeSouviens]

Preliminary result:

Yes - 2,020,144 90%
No - 176,566 8%
Spoiled etc 2%

Approximately 770,000 ballots were stolen by the Guardia Civil.
Total turnout approximately 58%.

[JeMeSouviens]

If the 770,000 were roughly in the same proportion as the counted ballots, then an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence.

[PeeJay]

If the 770,000 were roughly in the same proportion as the counted ballots, then an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence.


Only 43% of the Catalonian electorate voted (2,26 million) of that percentage 90% voted for the motion - an "illegal" referendum was held which the majority of the electorate duly ignored - so I'm not sure how you can claim an "absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence" - This is surely not the case on a valid democratic basis ? :confused:

[Peevemor]

Only 43% of the Catalonian electorate voted (2,26 million) of that percentage 90% voted for the motion - an "illegal" referendum was held which the majority of the electorate duly ignored - so I'm not sure how you can claim an "absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence" - This is surely not the case on a valid democratic basis ? :confused:


Approx. 25% of the polling stations were effectively closed down by tha state police, so you can't really say it was ignored by the majority.

[JeMeSouviens]

Only 43% of the Catalonian electorate voted (2,26 million) of that percentage 90% voted for the motion - an "illegal" referendum was held which the majority of the electorate duly ignored - so I'm not sure how you can claim an "absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence" - This is surely not the case on a valid democratic basis ? :confused:

Read my post above - 770,000 completed ballots were stolen by Spanish police, so actually around 58% of the electorate voted. I am not claiming an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence, I am saying that it is likely based on the proportions in the ballots that were counted. Obviously we'll never know for sure, which was the objective of the Spanish government.

[PeeJay]

Approx. 25% of the polling stations were effectively closed down by tha state police, so you can't really say it was ignored by the majority.



Well bearing that in mind and the clear indications that some voters voted several times over along with the issue of electoral lists not being settled, I don't see how there can be a legitimate democratic basis for a "Yes" to independence ...

[Peevemor]

Read my post above - 770,000 completed ballots were stolen by Spanish police, so actually around 58% of the electorate voted. I am not claiming an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence, I am saying that it is likely based on the proportions in the ballots that were counted. Obviously we'll never know for sure, which was the objective of the Spanish government.

Also, we'll never know how many people were deterred from voting by the actions of the state police.

[Peevemor]

Well bearing that in mind and the clear indications that some voters voted several times over along with the issue of electoral lists not being settled, I don't see how there can be a legitimate democratic basis for a "Yes" to independence ...

I honestly don't know enough about what went on and TBH I'm undecided on the issue of Catalan independance, however there is one 'side' in all this that definitely weren't democratic.

[PeeJay]

Read my post above - 770,000 completed ballots were stolen by Spanish police, so actually around 58% of the electorate voted. I am not claiming an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence, I am saying that it is likely based on the proportions in the ballots that were counted. Obviously we'll never know for sure, which was the objective of the Spanish government.


I did read your post - you wrote - "an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence", now you are saying you didn't write that, yet you did, although perhaps you meant something else, but that makes it difficult for me ... :greengrin

I find it interesting that you mention police "stealing" completed ballots, but fail to mention the dubious means by which the 2 laws were passed previously in the regional government of Catalonia to make this possible - half the members of parliament were absent and NO debate was allowed ... is that "democratic"?

You simply have to question the validity of this referendum, which seems to me to lack any basic legal and democratic basis ...

... and while Franco and "State Police" keep getting pushed on here by some - for balance, one should not leave out the nationalist funded propaganda for the referendum with no opposition advertising or polling, nor the pressure felt or placed on the "silent majority" in Catalonia not to be openly against the referendum -

This sort of ego-trip nonsense should not be happening in this day in age, and particularly not in the EU ...

[JeMeSouviens]

I honestly don't know enough about what went on and TBH I'm undecided on the issue of Catalan independance, however there is one 'side' in all this that definitely weren't democratic.

:agree:

I empathise with Catalans who feel stateless but I would absolutely respect a majority decision to stay within Spain. Irrespective of all that though, wtf were Rajoy & co thinking yesterday? Madness.

[JeMeSouviens]

I did read your post - you wrote - "an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence", now you are saying you didn't write that, yet you did, although perhaps you meant something else, but that makes it difficult for me ... :greengrin


I wrote, "If the 770,000 were roughly in the same proportion as the counted ballots, then an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence."

The use of "if" and "then" are fairly obvious I would have thought? :rolleyes: I subsequently wrote, "obviously we'll never know for sure". I really didn't think I had to explicitly say how obvious that was, but you live and learn ...

[Peevemor]

I did read your post - you wrote - "an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence", now you are saying you didn't write that, yet you did, although perhaps you meant something else, but that makes it difficult for me ... :greengrin

I find it interesting that you mention police "stealing" completed ballots, but fail to mention the dubious means by which the 2 laws were passed previously in the regional government of Catalonia to make this possible - half the members of parliament were absent and NO debate was allowed ... is that "democratic"?

You simply have to question the validity of this referendum, which seems to me to lack any basic legal and democratic basis ...

... and while Franco and "State Police" keep getting pushed on here by some - for balance, one should not leave out the nationalist funded propaganda for the referendum with no opposition advertising or polling, nor the pressure felt or placed on the "silent majority" in Catalonia not to be openly against the referendum -

This sort of ego-trip nonsense should not be happening in this day in age, and particularly not in the EU ...

I mention "state police" specifically to distinguish them from the local/municipal police - there's a huge difference. It was the state police that were filmed yesterday turning on voters and, in the main, peaceful protesters.

[Peevemor]

I did read your post - you wrote - "an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence", now you are saying you didn't write that, yet you did, although perhaps you meant something else, but that makes it difficult for me ... :greengrin

I find it interesting that you mention police "stealing" completed ballots, but fail to mention the dubious means by which the 2 laws were passed previously in the regional government of Catalonia to make this possible - half the members of parliament were absent and NO debate was allowed ... is that "democratic"?

You simply have to question the validity of this referendum, which seems to me to lack any basic legal and democratic basis ...

... and while Franco and "State Police" keep getting pushed on here by some - for balance, one should not leave out the nationalist funded propaganda for the referendum with no opposition advertising or polling, nor the pressure felt or placed on the "silent majority" in Catalonia not to be openly against the referendum -

This sort of ego-trip nonsense should not be happening in this day in age, and particularly not in the EU ...

If the Scottish Government was to use the mandate that it has (or claims to have depending on your point of view) and cracked on with a second referendum, how would you feel if the UK government, fearing a UDI, sent in the army to block the polling stations and confiscate the ballot boxes?

[JeMeSouviens]

I find it interesting that you mention police "stealing" completed ballots, but fail to mention the dubious means by which the 2 laws were passed previously in the regional government of Catalonia to make this possible - half the members of parliament were absent and NO debate was allowed ... is that "democratic"?

You simply have to question the validity of this referendum, which seems to me to lack any basic legal and democratic basis ...


The circumstances surrounding the referendum have been far from ideal, I agree. However, faced with 5 years of intransigence from Madrid and the complete refusal to even begin to negotiate on the holding of an agreed referendum, what were they supposed to do?

There was a debate in the Catalan parliament, 52 of 135 (a good bit less than half) walked out because they didn't like what the result was going to be. And yes, procedures were shortened and the timescale hastily compressed to make it more difficult for Spain to suppress the vote entirely.

Surely the right thing to do now would be concede the Catalans right to decide their future, and allow an agreed referendum with the regular safeguards to take place?

[JeMeSouviens]

I mention "state police" specifically to distinguish them from the local/municipal police - there's a huge difference. It was the state police that were filmed yesterday turning on voters and, in the main, peaceful protesters.

In some cases, the local Catalan "Mossos" police protected voters from the Spanish "Guardia Civil" police.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-referendum-independence-police-violence-mossos-vielha-a7976921.html


In many cases, firefighters formed protective cordons:

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/ay_111024294.jpg

[PeeJay]

I wrote, "If the 770,000 were roughly in the same proportion as the counted ballots, then an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence."

The use of "if" and "then" are fairly obvious I would have thought? :rolleyes: I subsequently wrote, "obviously we'll never know for sure". I really didn't think I had to explicitly say how obvious that was, but you live and learn ...

Yeah, fair enough, my mistake - I should have read that more closely ...

[PeeJay]

If the Scottish Government was to use the mandate that it has (or claims to have depending on your point of view) and cracked on with a second referendum, how would you feel if the UK government, fearing a UDI, sent in the army to block the polling stations and confiscate the ballot boxes?

Well, if the referendum was "illegal" then the state would have the right to stop it from happening IMO - breaking the law is not OK and cannot simply be ignored - violence on either side of course is not to be condoned ...

[Hibrandenburg]

The silence from the EU is deafening. It would appear that democracy is only democracy when it is used to uphold the establishment.

[JeMeSouviens]

Well, if the referendum was "illegal" then the state would have the right to stop it from happening IMO - breaking the law is not OK and cannot simply be ignored - violence on either side of course is not to be condoned ...




Afaics there are zero reports of violence instigated by Catalan voters, so you only have one side left to condone there.

How far do you take a "breaking the law is not OK" line of argument? To pick the obvious extreme: Hitler came to power legally and changed German laws in a constitutional manner.

[snooky]

Well bearing that in mind and the clear indications that some voters voted several times over along with the issue of electoral lists not being settled, I don't see how there can be a legitimate democratic basis for a "Yes" to independence ...

:agree: Job done. That's it over. What's for tea?

:timebomb:

[PeeJay]

I mention "state police" specifically to distinguish them from the local/municipal police - there's a huge difference. It was the state police that were filmed yesterday turning on voters and, in the main, peaceful protesters.


Yeah, the state police were of course only there because the local/municipal police failed to provide sufficient assurance that they would uphold the law as it stands (perhaps undertsandable in the given circumstances, I'm not sure myself ...) Seems the narrative of "violent police" and "peaceful protesters" is being used by the nationalists to full effect ...

Spain has handled this poorly, but Catalonia has not been much better - dialogue would have been a better option to sort this out

[PeeJay]

Afaics there are zero reports of violence instigated by Catalan voters, so you only have one side left to condone there.

How far do you take a "breaking the law is not OK" line of argument? To pick the obvious extreme: Hitler came to power legally and changed German laws in a constitutional manner.

Not quite - reports of 33 police injured, stones/missiles thrown at police - the discrepancy in figures is however there for all to see ...
I've no problems with a legal referendum, one has to wonder why the Catalans were unable to get this off the ground? Anyway, I don't see how this nonsense benefits anybody and breaking the law just because you feel like it and just because you can doesn't mean it is OK to go ahead and do so ...

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah, the state police were of course only there because the local/municipal police failed to provide sufficient assurance that they would uphold the law as it stands (perhaps undertsandable in the given circumstances, I'm not sure myself ...) Seems the narrative of "violent police" and "peaceful protesters" is being used by the nationalists to full effect ...

Spain has handled this poorly, but Catalonia has not been much better - dialogue would have been a better option to sort this out

Dialogue like both Spanish and Catalan parliaments agreeing on a deal for further autonomy? We've had that. It was torpedoed by the Spanish courts and the PP.

Since then the Catalans have waited 5 years for a response to their request to hold a referendum. Madrid says, sure, we can have dialogue, just as soon as you drop 100% of your demands. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Not quite - reports of 33 police injured, stones/missiles thrown at police - the discrepancy in figures is however there for all to see ...
I've no problems with a legal referendum, one has to wonder why the Catalans were unable to get this off the ground? Anyway, I don't see how this nonsense benefits anybody and breaking the law just because you feel like it and just because you can doesn't mean it is OK to go ahead and do so ...



Tell that to Rosa Parks.

[snooky]

Well, if the referendum was "illegal" then the state would have the right to stop it from happening IMO - breaking the law is not OK and cannot simply be ignored - violence on either side of course is not to be condoned ...


Surely any government can pass 'laws' to stifle any faction they see as becoming a threat to their power?

[Bristolhibby]

Not quite - reports of 33 police injured, stones/missiles thrown at police - the discrepancy in figures is however there for all to see ...
I've no problems with a legal referendum, one has to wonder why the Catalans were unable to get this off the ground? Anyway, I don't see how this nonsense benefits anybody and breaking the law just because you feel like it and just because you can doesn't mean it is OK to go ahead and do so ...



Quite frankly, if my heads getting stoved In by a storm trooper and I’m dodging rubber bullets, I’d be the first with a half brick in my hand.

J

[snooky]

Tell that to Rosa Parks.

In tennis terms, that's an ace. :aok:

[superfurryhibby]

Not quite - reports of 33 police injured, stones/missiles thrown at police - the discrepancy in figures is however there for all to see ...
I've no problems with a legal referendum, one has to wonder why the Catalans were unable to get this off the ground? Anyway, I don't see how this nonsense benefits anybody and breaking the law just because you feel like it and just because you can doesn't mean it is OK to go ahead and do so ...



Just as well Nelson Mandela didn't listen to your take on adhering to the law then. Why can't Madrid just allow freedom of expression and accept that the people have the right to decide? The British state knew they couldn't stop the people voting in this country. They won the arguement without resorting to brutality.

The reasons why the Spanish state refused to endorse a referendum are obvious. Your arguement is nonsense.


https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3/y4/r/-PAXP-deijE.gif

[One Day Soon]

In tennis terms, that's an ace. :aok:

Conflating race inequality - and the associated murders, lynchings and segregation - in the United States in the era of Rosa Parks with this is completely disproportionate.

[One Day Soon]

The circumstances surrounding the referendum have been far from ideal, I agree. However, faced with 5 years of intransigence from Madrid and the complete refusal to even begin to negotiate on the holding of an agreed referendum, what were they supposed to do?

There was a debate in the Catalan parliament, 52 of 135 (a good bit less than half) walked out because they didn't like what the result was going to be. And yes, procedures were shortened and the timescale hastily compressed to make it more difficult for Spain to suppress the vote entirely.

Surely the right thing to do now would be concede the Catalans right to decide their future, and allow an agreed referendum with the regular safeguards to take place?


I'm not at all sure that would be the right thing to do. In fact I think that may be exactly the wrong thing to do.

Essentially what this would mean is: "Right, you went ahead with an illegal referendum. Since this turned ugly when we tried to stop it you can now go ahead and have a referendum anyway."

I ask again, what is to stop this tactic from being used in the many other parts of Spain with secessionist movements? Why on earth should the Spanish government agree to this?

A very slow motion version of what you suggest seems more likely/possible: an agreement to discuss how a referendum might take place and in what circumstances, an agreement to amend the constitution to allow a referendum to take place, a referendum - in about a decade, once everyone has calmed down.

On two other points I wonder whether anyone can provide a bit of clarity:

1. What is the main drive for Catalan independence about? Is it more economic powers, is it statehood, is it a desire to stop subsidising Spain? I saw Superfuddyhibby's post above about past repression but I'm not sure any of that still stands?

2. Mention has been made of this referendum being called and run as a way to cover up corruption at senior levels in Catalonia. Is there actually any evidence to support this claim or is it just assertion?

[JeMeSouviens]

Conflating race inequality - and the associated murders, lynchings and segregation - in the United States in the era of Rosa Parks with this is completely disproportionate.

The murders and lynchings are beside the point, as you know. The point is that race inequality and segregation were legal and constitutional. Just because something is "the law" doesn't make it right. Sometimes peaceful, civic disobedience is justified, even in ostensibly democratic countries.

[One Day Soon]

The murders and lynchings are beside the point, as you know. The point is that race inequality and segregation were legal and constitutional. Just because something is "the law" doesn't make it right. Sometimes peaceful, civic disobedience is justified, even in ostensibly democratic countries.


They are not beside the point as you know because context is everything. What are the similarities between Catalonia and the situation of Rosa Parks that justify breaking the law in this instance?

[snooky]

They are not beside the point as you know because context is everything. What are the similarities between Catalonia and the situation of Rosa Parks that justify breaking the law in this instance?

The similarity is the Law is and ass. (tongue-in-cheek smiley)

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not at all sure that would be the right thing to do. In fact I think that may be exactly the wrong thing to do.

Essentially what this would mean is: "Right, you went ahead with an illegal referendum. Since this turned ugly when we tried to stop it you can now go ahead and have a referendum anyway."

I ask again, what is to stop this tactic from being used in the many other parts of Spain with secessionist movements? Why on earth should the Spanish government agree to this?

A very slow motion version of what you suggest seems more likely/possible: an agreement to discuss how a referendum might take place and in what circumstances, an agreement to amend the constitution to allow a referendum to take place, a referendum - in about a decade, once everyone has calmed down.

On two other points I wonder whether anyone can provide a bit of clarity:

1. What is the main drive for Catalan independence about? Is it more economic powers, is it statehood, is it a desire to stop subsidising Spain? I saw Superfuddyhibby's post above about past repression but I'm not sure any of that still stands?

2. Mention has been made of this referendum being called and run as a way to cover up corruption at senior levels in Catalonia. Is there actually any evidence to support this claim or is it just assertion?


You may dismiss this as nat rambling or whatever but I've tried to be objective:


1. From my not especially extensive reading, it's all of the above. The memory of repression is still alive and well, eg. the Catalan language has only been legally allowed since the late 70s. Catalonia contributes above Spanish averages in taxation but (crucially, I think) receives well below the Spanish average in terms of central government funds, eg. Barcelona was way behind other cities in getting a high speed train connection and it only goes to Madrid, not to Valencia or towards France. So, they feel hard done by and, with asuterity in place, that resentment has grown into the "Spain robs us" sentiment.

Anyway, as I've said above a couple of times, Catalonia and Spain agreed a deal in the mid-2000s giving Catalonia more autonomy and which recognised Catalonia as a "nation". It was ratified by the Catalan and Spanish parliaments (the socialist PSOE was in power in Madrid and also its sister PSC in Catalonia, I think) and approved by a referendum in Catalonia. The PP raised court action against the deal and the Spanish Constitutional Court (with, aiui judges politically affiliated to the PP) overturned the new statute. This was the turning point in popular support for independence. The following Diada saw well over a million Catalans (somewhat unexpectedly) join a march through Barcelona.

2. Aiui, this claim is mostly targeted at Artur Mas, the previous leader of the CiU, the previously moderate centre-right Catalan nationalists. He was replaced in 2015 by Puigdemont when the 3rd party in the coalition (the fairly far left CUP) refused to back the coalition unless he went. Afaik there are no corruption allegations against the current leaders of the 2 main pro-independence parties, Puigdemont and Junqueras (leader of the leftist ERC). There are also a ton of historical allegations against Jordi Pujol who led Catalonia in the 90s. I think a lot of that was coming out around the same time as Mas made the shift to independence. Hence the claims that independence was a smokescreen.

[JeMeSouviens]

They are not beside the point as you know because context is everything. What are the similarities between Catalonia and the situation of Rosa Parks that justify breaking the law in this instance?

Leaving Catalonia aside for a moment, do you agree that Rosa Parks was justified in breaking the law?

[snooky]

I'm not at all sure that would be the right thing to do. In fact I think that may be exactly the wrong thing to do.

Essentially what this would mean is: "Right, you went ahead with an illegal referendum. Since this turned ugly when we tried to stop it you can now go ahead and have a referendum anyway."

I ask again, what is to stop this tactic from being used in the many other parts of Spain with secessionist movements? Why on earth should the Spanish government agree to this?

A very slow motion version of what you suggest seems more likely/possible: an agreement to discuss how a referendum might take place and in what circumstances, an agreement to amend the constitution to allow a referendum to take place, a referendum - in about a decade, once everyone has calmed down.

On two other points I wonder whether anyone can provide a bit of clarity:

1. What is the main drive for Catalan independence about? Is it more economic powers, is it statehood, is it a desire to stop subsidising Spain? I saw Superfuddyhibby's post above about past repression but I'm not sure any of that still stands?

2. Mention has been made of this referendum being called and run as a way to cover up corruption at senior levels in Catalonia. Is there actually any evidence to support this claim or is it just assertion?

This is the cusp of the matter, IMO. The door will be open leading to the fragmentation of Spain as one entity. Whether you agree with the tactics of any of sides to defend their own perceived rights is a matter of your own perception.

[superfurryhibby]

I'm not at all sure that would be the right thing to do. In fact I think that may be exactly the wrong thing to do.

Essentially what this would mean is: "Right, you went ahead with an illegal referendum. Since this turned ugly when we tried to stop it you can now go ahead and have a referendum anyway."

I ask again, what is to stop this tactic from being used in the many other parts of Spain with secessionist movements? Why on earth should the Spanish government agree to this?

A very slow motion version of what you suggest seems more likely/possible: an agreement to discuss how a referendum might take place and in what circumstances, an agreement to amend the constitution to allow a referendum to take place, a referendum - in about a decade, once everyone has calmed down.

On two other points I wonder whether anyone can provide a bit of clarity:

1. What is the main drive for Catalan independence about? Is it more economic powers, is it statehood, is it a desire to stop subsidising Spain? I saw Superfuddyhibby's post above about past repression but I'm not sure any of that still stands?

2. Mention has been made of this referendum being called and run as a way to cover up corruption at senior levels in Catalonia. Is there actually any evidence to support this claim or is it just assertion?


The only other autonomy with a popular independence movement is the Basque Country. The reason any government, including that of the Uk would allow a referendum that might lead to the demise of the nation state concerened is that it respects the wishes of it's people. Imagine if Westminster had denied the right to a Scottish referendum on the basis of it being unconstitutional?

The Catalan Generalitat isn't a fixed entity. The main parties have ebbed and flowed and the whole issue has been on slow burn anyway. The current position has been a response to Madrid's refusal to countenance anything which could lead to Catalan independence. The Catalan government has a mandate to pursue independence, given in fair and free election. That is the will of the people and is undeniable

The basis for independence includes all the things you refer to and more. Past repression lingers long in the memories of people. The situation differs from that of the UK in many ways. Spain has never had a Catalan prime minister. There isn't equality of opportunity in public life, so that creates deep resentment.

Corruption in the Generalitat is not an issue that I know a great deal about and certainly not at the heart of any independence movement. Look at corruption in Westminster. Scandals about weapons of mass destruction and the cover up of peadophilia at the heart of our establishment. That isn't fundamental to our independence movement, it is much older and more deep rooted than that. It's the same in Catalonia.

[One Day Soon]

You may dismiss this as nat rambling or whatever but I've tried to be objective:


1. From my not especially extensive reading, it's all of the above. The memory of repression is still alive and well, eg. the Catalan language has only been legally allowed since the late 70s. Catalonia contributes above Spanish averages in taxation but (crucially, I think) receives well below the Spanish average in terms of central government funds, eg. Barcelona was way behind other cities in getting a high speed train connection and it only goes to Madrid, not to Valencia or towards France. So, they feel hard done by and, with asuterity in place, that resentment has grown into the "Spain robs us" sentiment.

Anyway, as I've said above a couple of times, Catalonia and Spain agreed a deal in the mid-2000s giving Catalonia more autonomy and which recognised Catalonia as a "nation". It was ratified by the Catalan and Spanish parliaments (the socialist PSOE was in power in Madrid and also its sister PSC in Catalonia, I think) and approved by a referendum in Catalonia. The PP raised court action against the deal and the Spanish Constitutional Court (with, aiui judges politically affiliated to the PP) overturned the new statute. This was the turning point in popular support for independence. The following Diada saw well over a million Catalans (somewhat unexpectedly) join a march through Barcelona.

I'm not generally a fan of Wiki but this bit on Catalonia is quite interesting:

"The Preamble of the 2006 Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia states that the Parliament of Catalonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Catalonia) has defined Catalonia as a nation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation), but that "the Spanish Constitution recognizes Catalonia's national reality as a nationality".[64] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-69) While the Statute was approved by and sanctioned by both the Catalan and Spanish parliaments, and later by referendum in Catalonia, it has been subject to a legal challenge by the surrounding autonomous communities of Aragon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragon), Balearic Islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balearic_Islands) and Valencia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian_Community),[65] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-70) as well as by the conservative People's Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_%28Spain%29). The objections are based on various issues such as disputed cultural heritage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_heritage) but, especially, on the Statute's alleged breaches of the principle of "solidarity between regions" in fiscal and educational matters enshrined by the Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Constitution_of_1978).[66]" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-71)

2. Aiui, this claim is mostly targeted at Artur Mas, the previous leader of the CiU, the previously moderate centre-right Catalan nationalists. He was replaced in 2015 by Puigdemont when the 3rd party in the coalition (the fairly far left CUP) refused to back the coalition unless he went. Afaik there are no corruption allegations against the current leaders of the 2 main pro-independence parties, Puigdemont and Junqueras (leader of the leftist ERC). There are also a ton of historical allegations against Jordi Pujol who led Catalonia in the 90s. I think a lot of that was coming out around the same time as Mas made the shift to independence. Hence the claims that independence was a smokescreen.

Interesting. Doesn't really shed a lot of light on whether they are true or not but I guess that's to be expected.

[One Day Soon]

Leaving Catalonia aside for a moment, do you agree that Rosa Parks was justified in breaking the law?

Yes, why?

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes, why?

Because it means you accept the general principle that not all laws are right and that peaceful, civil disobedience is justifiable in some circumstances.

Having agreed, we can move to the specific and that just saying "it's illegal" isn't sufficient justification on its own to support the suppression of the Catalan vote.

So, is it justified in this case?

I think Catalonia should have the right to a self determination referendum if it wants one. The Catalan parliament has a majority consisting of 3 parties who all stood on the platform of a referendum. The Spanish constitution expressly forbids such a thing and the Spanish right wing has made it crystal clear that they will never allow any change to the constitution that threatens the "indissoluble unity" of Spain. They only need 1/3 of the vote in either chamber of the Spanish parliament to block any change.

Under these circumstances, I think holding an "illegal" referendum was a justifiable act.

[One Day Soon]

Because it means you accept the general principle that not all laws are right and that peaceful, civil disobedience is justifiable in some circumstances.

Not sure anyone would disagree with that.

Having agreed, we can move to the specific and that just saying "it's illegal" isn't sufficient justification on its own to support the suppression of the Catalan vote.

Yes, context is everything.

So, is it justified in this case?

Not in my view.

I think Catalonia should have the right to a self determination referendum if it wants one. The Catalan parliament has a majority consisting of 3 parties who all stood on the platform of a referendum. The Spanish constitution expressly forbids such a thing and the Spanish right wing has made it crystal clear that they will never allow any change to the constitution that threatens the "indissoluble unity" of Spain. They only need 1/3 of the vote in either chamber of the Spanish parliament to block any change.

Not just the Spanish right wing - other areas of Spain too it would appear, which feel they would suffer if Catalonia became independent.

Under these circumstances, I think holding an "illegal" referendum was a justifiable act.

Under these circumstances I think the notion of holding an illegal referendum (there's no "illegal" about it, it was illegal) was a highly dubious enterprise. Given the current autonomy of Catalonia, the lack of any practical injustice that I can see and the possibility of pursuing additional powers short of independence instead, this doesn't seem a sensible call to me.

Poor politicians playing bad politics on both sides in my view.

[superfurryhibby]

Under these circumstances I think the notion of holding an illegal referendum (there's no "illegal" about it, it was illegal) was a highly dubious enterprise. Given the current autonomy of Catalonia, the lack of any practical injustice that I can see and the possibility of pursuing additional powers short of independence instead, this doesn't seem a sensible call to me.

Poor politicians playing bad politics on both sides in my view.


You are ignoring or missing the point.

Do you believe in democracy?

If you do then you have to accept that Catalonia has an elected government which has a mandate to pursue independence?

If said government declined to progress the right to self determination would they not be acting undemocratically?

Regardless of your views on Scottish independence, would you be happy with British police ( especially an organisation which has such strong past links to anti democratic forces) treating citizens like the Guardia did yesterday?

Is it OK to attack peaceful civilians exercising their democratic rights?

The Guardia attacked voters in polling stations, they attacked folk with batons and rubber bullets on the streets, creating chaos and random terror through their actions. The police attacked other police officers from the Catalan police force and firefighters who had gathered to protect the people making their views known. These weren't tooled up anarchists rioting, they were ordinary citizens.

It's not about any lack of injustice which you can see, it's about peoples right to self-determination.

Anyone unsure of what is going on take a look for yourselves, watch the videos. This was done with the eyes of the world watching them. Think for yourself and imagine if that had happened here, would it be OK? Then you have the answer

[hibsbollah]

You are ignoring or missing the point.

Do you believe in democracy?

If you do then you have to accept that Catalonia has an elected government which has a mandate to pursue independence?

If said government declined to progress the right to self determination would they not be acting undemocratically?

Regardless of your views on Scottish independence, would you be happy with British police ( especially an organisation which has such strong past links to anti democratic forces) treating citizens like the Guardia did yesterday?

Is it OK to attack peaceful civilians exercising their democratic rights?

The Guardia attacked voters in polling stations, they attacked folk with batons and rubber bullets on the streets, creating chaos and random terror through their actions. The police attacked other police officers from the Catalan police force and firefighters who had gathered to protect the people making their views known. These weren't tooled up anarchists rioting, they were ordinary citizens.

It's not about any lack of injustice which you can see, it's about peoples right to self-determination.

Anyone unsure of what is going on take a look for yourselves, watch the videos. This was done with the eyes of the world watching them. Think for yourself and imagine if that had happened here, would it be OK? Then you have the answer

Democracy has its limits, apparently.

[snooky]

You are ignoring or missing the point.

Do you believe in democracy?

If you do then you have to accept that Catalonia has an elected government which has a mandate to pursue independence?

If said government declined to progress the right to self determination would they not be acting undemocratically?

Regardless of your views on Scottish independence, would you be happy with British police ( especially an organisation which has such strong past links to anti democratic forces) treating citizens like the Guardia did yesterday?

Is it OK to attack peaceful civilians exercising their democratic rights?

The Guardia attacked voters in polling stations, they attacked folk with batons and rubber bullets on the streets, creating chaos and random terror through their actions. The police attacked other police officers from the Catalan police force and firefighters who had gathered to protect the people making their views known. These weren't tooled up anarchists rioting, they were ordinary citizens.

It's not about any lack of injustice which you can see, it's about peoples right to self-determination.

Anyone unsure of what is going on take a look for yourselves, watch the videos. This was done with the eyes of the world watching them. Think for yourself and imagine if that had happened here, would it be OK? Then you have the answer

Oddly enough, that's what the Guardia behaved like to me. :coffee:

[Bristolhibby]

Under these circumstances I think the notion of holding an illegal referendum (there's no "illegal" about it, it was illegal) was a highly dubious enterprise. Given the current autonomy of Catalonia, the lack of any practical injustice that I can see and the possibility of pursuing additional powers short of independence instead, this doesn't seem a sensible call to me.

Poor politicians playing bad politics on both sides in my view.


So the criteria in your eyes to Independence is
a) must be injustice present.
b) have a lack of autonomy.

How about, c) the people want to vote on the issue?

J

[IberianHibernian]

Quite frankly, if my heads getting stoved In by a storm trooper and I’m dodging rubber bullets, I’d be the first with a half brick in my hand.

JThe most serious incident of police being attacked by mobs with bricks took place in Tarragona at 8 am before voting began and before any rubber bullets had been used . I condemn police violence 100% but to suggest that the police were responsible for all of the violence and that repression was like in times of Franco etc is lazy journalism . There should and will be investigations into the police`s behaviour yesterday but on a wider scale also into use of educational system ( reports of 5 year olds being told stuff about police in schools , political interference in Catalan schools in general in last 20 years - it`s too late for that to be corrected there but hopefully in Scotland for example we`ll be extra careful not to let hatred of neighbours be instilled into children ) .

[IberianHibernian]

You have obviously missed the reality of what has been happening. People have been brutalised for expressing their views. Split Catalan society....... I think the Spanish state has done more damage than anyone seeking independence. Democracy is at stake in Spain and that concerns any right mindd person. Sickened to the core by recent events and deeply worri d for my Catalan friends and family.

Many older Catalans lived under the Franco regime and believe me, today brings back memories. Forget the 1930's, the state were terrorising people in the 1970's.I agree that police behaviour was completely unacceptable and has done a lot of damage to the image of Spain and at same time deflected attention from other issues like actual voting and what happened in months and years before yesterday . Have certainly not missed reality of what happened yesterday and having spent more than 30 years in various places in Spain I`m certainly very aware of how many Catalans have been educated to see the rest of Spain and how Spaniards see Catalonia . As for Franco , he died a long time ago and left victims all over Spain just as he had supporters all over Spain not least in Catalonia . Anyway main thing is that things settle down and that all of Spain returns to being a friendly and tolerant country .

[GreenLake]

Not quite - reports of 33 police injured, stones/missiles thrown at police - the discrepancy in figures is however there for all to see ...
I've no problems with a legal referendum, one has to wonder why the Catalans were unable to get this off the ground? Anyway, I don't see how this nonsense benefits anybody and breaking the law just because you feel like it and just because you can doesn't mean it is OK to go ahead and do so ...



Was the separation of Kosovo against the law? :greengrin

http://www.atimes.com/article/future-eu-stake-catalonia/

[JeMeSouviens]

Was the separation of Kosovo against the law? :greengrin

http://www.atimes.com/article/future-eu-stake-catalonia/

The separation of Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia was absolutely against the law of Yugoslavia. The EU initially refused to recognise their declarations of independence but backed down after Germany broke ranks and recognised them.

Presumably the lesson there is start a war if you want a nice "legal" break in the EU's eyes. :rolleyes:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-06-26/news/9102260502_1_croatian-parliament-croatia-and-slovenia-largest-republic

[JeMeSouviens]

The most serious incident of police being attacked by mobs with bricks took place in Tarragona at 8 am before voting began and before any rubber bullets had been used . I condemn police violence 100% but to suggest that the police were responsible for all of the violence and that repression was like in times of Franco etc is lazy journalism . There should and will be investigations into the police`s behaviour yesterday but on a wider scale also into use of educational system ( reports of 5 year olds being told stuff about police in schools , political interference in Catalan schools in general in last 20 years - it`s too late for that to be corrected there but hopefully in Scotland for example we`ll be extra careful not to let hatred of neighbours be instilled into children ) .

A lot of the Franco stuff might be hyperbolic but the pictures and videos speak for themselves in terms of the level of police brutality and the one sided nature of the instigation of violence. There are countless showing peaceful people with their hands up being laid into with batons.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The separation of Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia was absolutely against the law of Yugoslavia. The EU initially refused to recognise their declarations of independence but backed down after Germany broke ranks and recognised them.

Presumably the lesson there is start a war if you want a nice "legal" break in the EU's eyes. :rolleyes:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-06-26/news/9102260502_1_croatian-parliament-croatia-and-slovenia-largest-republic

The whole yugoslavia break-up is a different kettle of fish, and way more complex. Its quite fascinating though. Kosovo was a strange one though, still not sure i agree with that, although admittedly i dont know all of the facts.

[JeMeSouviens]

The whole yugoslavia break-up is a different kettle of fish, and way more complex. Its quite fascinating though. Kosovo was a strange one though, still not sure i agree with that, although admittedly i dont know all of the facts.

Of course it is, but the same "it's the law" dynamic applied.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Of course it is, but the same "it's the law" dynamic applied.

Yeah, sorry i wasnt disputing that.

I dont particularly buy the its against the law. Laws are human made and so are fallible, they are not absolute and beyond challenge.

[One Day Soon]

Yeah, sorry i wasnt disputing that.

I dont particularly buy the its against the law. Laws are human made and so are fallible, they are not absolute and beyond challenge.


Really shark infested water here. It's not just people we agree with who can decide not to obey the law if they feel strongly about it. Once the law doesn't decide what is right and wrong, who or what does?

[Glory Lurker]

Any constitution that prohibits self determination, and that has built-in mechanisms to prevent that ever being changed, is morally wrong.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Really shark infested water here. It's not just people we agree with who can decide not to obey the law if they feel strongly about it. Once the law doesn't decide what is right and wrong, who or what does?

Im not pro or anti anything in this case.

People decide. The law serves the people, not the people serve the law. If the law doesnt work for the people, and in this case it seems it isnt, then the law is wrong amd should be changed. If there is no recourse to change the law, then you have a problem...

Dont get me wrong, i get what you are saying and that we cant just have anarchy, but the law is rarely black and white, thats why we have lawyers and judges and politicians. In this case there seems to be a genuine grievance where the law is not able to provide a solution, or is an unfair barrier to that grievance being resolved.

In that case, we require human judgement, with all its vagaries and fallibility.

[JeMeSouviens]

Im not pro or anti anything in this case.

People decide. The law serves the people, not the people serve the law. If the law doesnt work for the people, and in this case it seems it isnt, then the law is wrong amd should be changed. If there is no recourse to change the law, then you have a problem...

Dont get me wrong, i get what you are saying and that we cant just have anarchy, but the law is rarely black and white, thats why we have lawyers and judges and politicians. In this case there seems to be a genuine grievance where the law is not able to provide a solution, or is an unfair barrier to that grievance being resolved.

In that case, we require human judgement, with all its vagaries and fallibility.

Well said.

[JeMeSouviens]

Meanwhile the slick Spanish pr machine puts up a king to talk at a movement rooted in republicanism. :rolleyes:

[IberianHibernian]

Meanwhile the slick Spanish pr machine puts up a king to talk at a movement rooted in republicanism. :rolleyes:I`ve no interest in Spanish royal family or any other but I`ve read the speech online and it makes a lot of very valid points . It`s just a pity he and others hadn`t made such speeches several years ago as this week`s worrying situation might have been prevented if more people had felt strong enough or supported enough to stand up and condemn abuse of public services at many levels in Catalonia .

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Listening to the news this morning, it sedms both sides are ratcheting up their language.

If we arent aleady, i think we are approaching a point of no return.

[ronaldo7]

Im not pro or anti anything in this case.

People decide. The law serves the people, not the people serve the law. If the law doesnt work for the people, and in this case it seems it isnt, then the law is wrong amd should be changed. If there is no recourse to change the law, then you have a problem...

Dont get me wrong, i get what you are saying and that we cant just have anarchy, but the law is rarely black and white, thats why we have lawyers and judges and politicians. In this case there seems to be a genuine grievance where the law is not able to provide a solution, or is an unfair barrier to that grievance being resolved.

In that case, we require human judgement, with all its vagaries and fallibility.

Good post.

The people decide. Just like in any "Normal", country/colony/area. The referendum was not "legally binding", under Spanish Law, however, to baton old ladies who were going about their business on a Sunday afternoon was nothing short of State terrorism.

The same State who stopped any cohesive discussion on a way forward.

I'm sure you've seen the video's and photo's on social media, and the "Spanish" police wading into crowds of peaceful people.

Spain has lost Catalonia.

[One Day Soon]

Im not pro or anti anything in this case.

People decide. The law serves the people, not the people serve the law. If the law doesnt work for the people, and in this case it seems it isnt, then the law is wrong amd should be changed. If there is no recourse to change the law, then you have a problem...

Dont get me wrong, i get what you are saying and that we cant just have anarchy, but the law is rarely black and white, thats why we have lawyers and judges and politicians. In this case there seems to be a genuine grievance where the law is not able to provide a solution, or is an unfair barrier to that grievance being resolved.

In that case, we require human judgement, with all its vagaries and fallibility.


Leaving to one side for the moment whether it is the case that there is a genuine grievance where the law is not able to provide a solution here, who decides when and where it is acceptable to ignore the law? The one thing in defence of the law is that while its wheels may turn slowly and it may be imperfect it is at least an objective set of rules. Without that it's the Wild West.

Many people argue that the war in Iraq was illegal. I disagree, but that's a separate issue. If people can break the law when they feel it is important enough to do so then they could, for example, go ahead with a war in Iraq if they feel that the circumstances merit it because something has to be done but the UN will not give a mandate and therefore it is an ass. They may be wrong in their thinking but nonetheless why shouldn't they take things into their own hands if they feel the rules stopping them from doing so are not providing a solution? What's to stop Trump from doing the same with with North Korea? Why shouldn't Argentina annexe the Malvinas? What's wrong with Putin intervening wherever he likes on his borders?

These things don't exist in a vacuum. One revolutionary's path to justice is another fascist's path to oppression.

I retain my original position on all this - the leadership of both the Catalan and Spanish governments here has been ham-fisted, almost deliberately destructive. They are playing very bad politics with people's lives and I'm left wondering why. Some of the stuff I've learned elsewhere in the last few days persuades me that in both cases endemic corruption and criminal activity in both Barcelona and Madrid is a very important subtext. A constitutional crisis certainly distracts public attention for both sides from other extremely messy internal party political issues.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Leaving to one side for the moment whether it is the case that there is a genuine grievance where the law is not able to provide a solution here, who decides when and where it is acceptable to ignore the law? The one thing in defence of the law is that while its wheels may turn slowly and it may be imperfect it is at least an objective set of rules. Without that it's the Wild West.

Many people argue that the war in Iraq was illegal. I disagree, but that's a separate issue. If people can break the law when they feel it is important enough to do so then they could, for example, go ahead with a war in Iraq if they feel that the circumstances merit it because something has to be done but the UN will not give a mandate and therefore it is an ass. They may be wrong in their thinking but nonetheless why shouldn't they take things into their own hands if they feel the rules stopping them from doing so are not providing a solution? What's to stop Trump from doing the same with with North Korea? Why shouldn't Argentina annexe the Malvinas? What's wrong with Putin intervening wherever he likes on his borders?

These things don't exist in a vacuum. One revolutionary's path to justice is another fascist's path to oppression.

I retain my original position on all this - the leadership of both the Catalan and Spanish governments here has been ham-fisted, almost deliberately destructive. They are playing very bad politics with people's lives and I'm left wondering why. Some of the stuff I've learned elsewhere in the last few days persuades me that in both cases endemic corruption and criminal activity in both Barcelona and Madrid is a very important subtext. A constitutional crisis certainly distracts public attention for both sides from other extremely messy internal party political issues.

You are right imo, it is frought and highly debateable.

Iraq was different because international law is dubious, and is more a set of norms than a legal system as exists in states.

But who decides...again i say the people. In the same way that mass protests amd illegal non-payment stopped the poll tax, or civil disobedience ended british colonial rule in India, or the civil rights movement changed the law that allowed discrimination against catholics in northern ireland, and black people in the southern US.

If the mass of the catalan people are determined to have a vote, and it appears they were (regardless of views on indy or staying in Spain), and the spanish state has to deploy paramilitary police to forcibly prevent such a vote, then i would suggest that the law is out of kilter and is not suitable.

History shows us that a democratic country cannot suppress the democratic expression of people. Any attempts to do so with force are doomed to failure as they radicalise moderates. Jeexo, even the UK with all its government level failings rexognised this fact. Its realpolitik. The law exists only in so far as it can be enforced, and it has the tacit consent of the people and the political classes.

Spain seems to lack all three now.

The irony is they probably woyld have had a better chance if they had participated and campaigned not to secede.

I agree about the handling, it seems to me one ofnthose situations that politicians start, then quickly lose control of and are overtaken by events. Like the story of how the berlin wall was opened by accident by some bumbling east german politician.

But politicians have to deal with events as they are, not as they wish them to be, and short of sending in the military, i dont see how spains position of putting their fingers in their ears and loudly shouting 'im not listening' is in any way tenable.

[One Day Soon]

You are right imo, it is frought and highly debateable.

Iraq was different because international law is dubious, and is more a set of norms than a legal system as exists in states.

But who decides...again i say the people. In the same way that mass protests amd illegal non-payment stopped the poll tax, or civil disobedience ended british colonial rule in India, or the civil rights movement changed the law that allowed discrimination against catholics in northern ireland, and black people in the southern US.

If the mass of the catalan people are determined to have a vote, and it appears they were (regardless of views on indy or staying in Spain), and the spanish state has to deploy paramilitary police to forcibly prevent such a vote, then i would suggest that the law is out of kilter and is not suitable.

History shows us that a democratic country cannot suppress the democratic expression of people. Any attempts to do so with force are doomed to failure as they radicalise moderates. Jeexo, even the UK with all its government level failings rexognised this fact. Its realpolitik. The law exists only in so far as it can be enforced, and it has the tacit consent of the people and the political classes.

Spain seems to lack all three now.

The irony is they probably woyld have had a better chance if they had participated and campaigned not to secede.

I agree about the handling, it seems to me one ofnthose situations that politicians start, then quickly lose control of and are overtaken by events. Like the story of how the berlin wall was opened by accident by some bumbling east german politician.

But politicians have to deal with events as they are, not as they wish them to be, and short of sending in the military, i dont see how spains position of putting their fingers in their ears and loudly shouting 'im not listening' is in any way tenable.


Rajoy has made a giant ar5e of managing this. The question is why?

The Catalans won't get to make a unilateral declaration of independence stick if they go ahead with it. Spain won't have it and neither will the EU. So what's their game plan?

[Dinkydoo]

I'd be raging if the UK declared a Scottish independance referrendum as illegal, as a remain voter I'd decided there was therefore no point in voting, only for Scotland to declare independance on the back of said vote.

Politically speaking, neither side is covering themselves in glory here.

Instead of opening dialogue to figure out how the hell some kind of compromise can be met, both Madrid and Pro-Indy Catalonia would seemingly rather stagger into a conflict.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[CapitalGreen]

Many people argue that the war in Iraq was illegal. I disagree, but that's a separate issue. If people can break the law when they feel it is important enough to do so then they could, for example, go ahead with a war in Iraq if they feel that the circumstances merit it because something has to be done but the UN will not give a mandate and therefore it is an ass. They may be wrong in their thinking but nonetheless why shouldn't they take things into their own hands if they feel the rules stopping them from doing so are not providing a solution? What's to stop Trump from doing the same with with North Korea? Why shouldn't Argentina annexe the Malvinas? What's wrong with Putin intervening wherever he likes on his borders?

You have previously described JMS conflating the Catalonia independence movement and race inequality as "completely disproportionate".

Do you not think that by conflating the attempt to hold a peaceful referendum and the aggressive military invasion of a foreign territory is as equally disproportionate?

[One Day Soon]

You have previously described JMS conflating the Catalonia independence movement and race inequality as "completely disproportionate".

I did. In the case of the former what is being sought (it seems a bit confusing what they are really after) is statehood, either within Spain or as an independent nation, or alternatively substantially more power than they currently have and/or a new constitutional settlement within Spain. This in the context of what is already a free, open, equal society in which Catalans have all the same rights as everyone else in Spain - perhaps even more given that they have autonomous government which not all the rest of Spain has.

In the case of the latter what was being sought was the most basic of human rights and equality under the law. This in the context at the time of routine instances of race based murder, rape, unjustified incarceration, exclusion from basic services on an equal basis and much more beside.

None of this is to say the Catalans do not have a case for independence - they may or may not - I just do not see the two sets of circumstances as equivalent if seeking a justification for breaking the law. Up until this episode it appeared to be the case that a majority of Catalans did not want to be independent, that would give me a lot of pause for thought before deciding that an illegal referendum was the way forward.

Do you not think that by conflating the attempt to hold a peaceful referendum and the aggressive military invasion of a foreign territory is as equally disproportionate?

I'm not conflating them. I'm simply pointing out that once we are in the territory of it being alright to break the law for good reasons then all bets are off because anyone can justify their choosing to break the law on their own terms for their own ''good' reasons. It becomes possible for anyone who wishes to do so to conflate them. Putin certainly does. Hitler did over the Czech Sudetenland. China does over Tibet. Argentina did over the Falklands.

Put it another way, either everyone has to stick to the law or everyone doesn't. Both cannot be the case.

[JeMeSouviens]

You have previously described JMS conflating the Catalonia independence movement and race inequality as "completely disproportionate".

Do you not think that by conflating the attempt to hold a peaceful referendum and the aggressive military invasion of a foreign territory is as equally disproportionate?

I know it's by the by but ... I didn't conflate or attempt to draw equivalence between race inequality and Catalan self determination. I used (or attempted to) civil disobedience in the face of race inequality as an example of when doing something illegal can be justified by the circumstances. If you accept that principle then just saying simply "it's the law" will not wash as an argument.

I suspect it's no coincidence that a range of Labour folk have adpoted that line here and on twitter, presumably with an eye to a future where a Westminster government refuses Indyref2?

[One Day Soon]

I know it's by the by but ... I didn't conflate or attempt to draw equivalence between race inequality and Catalan self determination. I used (or attempted to) civil disobedience in the face of race inequality as an example of when doing something illegal can be justified by the circumstances. If you accept that principle then just saying simply "it's the law" will not wash as an argument.

That's true and my response was that any law breaking needed to be contextualised which is why we discussed the two circumstances.

I suspect it's no coincidence that a range of Labour folk have adpoted that line here and on twitter, presumably with an eye to a future where a Westminster government refuses Indyref2?

I thought we were working to avoid projecting Indyref past/present/future on to the Catalonian situation?

For the record I think the two circumstances are completely different.

[JeMeSouviens]

I thought we were working to avoid projecting Indyref past/present/future on to the Catalonian situation?

For the record I think the two circumstances are completely different.


Sorry - that's me back on the naughty step. :embarrass

[One Day Soon]

Sorry - that's me back on the naughty step. :embarrass

I think the avatar might be the give-away. Just saying. :na na:

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the avatar might be the give-away. Just saying. :na na:

I like my big green Yes. Anyway, it's surely less contentious than Tam's barnet in yours. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

I like my big green Yes. Anyway, it's surely less contentious than Tam's barnet in yours. :wink:

TBF that's a pretty frikkin close call right enough...

[JeMeSouviens]

Looking very much like Catalonia will declare independence on Monday and Spain will impose direct rule from Madrid. After Sunday, I very much doubt this will be achieved peacefully. I hope the Catalan people can stick to their so far almost entirely exemplary peaceful approach.

I think in the longer term this will come down to the attitude of the Catalan people. If Spain's behaviour has built a majority for independence and they continually vote for it then I think they will eventually get it. Could take years though.