Catalonia

[What_the_deuce]

The way the Spanish government acted was awful. Why don't they just offer Catalonia a legal and binding referendum? It would most likely be a No vote. After this, should such a referendum ever be held, it could well be a Yes vote in response to the actions of the authorities.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Rajoy has made a giant ar5e of managing this. The question is why?

The Catalans won't get to make a unilateral declaration of independence stick if they go ahead with it. Spain won't have it and neither will the EU. So what's their game plan?

I dont know - incompetence or design?

There was a suggestion on 5live that that catalan govt are stalling a bit on their UDI to try and provoke a response from spain - dont know how true it is

[ronaldo7]

Had Catalonia been another Arab spring, I'm sure we'd have heard more from the Governments of the UK, and France.:rolleyes:

Reports now saying Madrid are now sending Army units up to Catalonia.

International observers report, strongly condemning police violence.

https://t.co/3Rg7elfWGN

[IberianHibernian]

Good post.

The people decide. Just like in any "Normal", country/colony/area. The referendum was not "legally binding", under Spanish Law, however, to baton old ladies who were going about their business on a Sunday afternoon was nothing short of State terrorism.

The same State who stopped any cohesive discussion on a way forward.

I'm sure you've seen the video's and photo's on social media, and the "Spanish" police wading into crowds of peaceful people.

Spain has lost Catalonia.Millions of people have seen images but how accurate are they ? Already lots of examples of stuff on internet being from 5 or 6 years ago in some cases with Catalan police being the aggressors during demonstrations being passed off as being from Sunday . Worth pointing out that Catalan regional police who are being accused of being passive or worse by their national colleagues ( ? ) have received far more accusations of brutality than Spanish national police or Guardia Civil in Catalonia in recent years . Most vocal victim who claimed she had all 20 fingers broken 1 by 1 has now admitted on Catalan TV ( run by independence supporters ) that none of her fingers are broken and that she just has a bruised hand , numbers of victims in hospital is number of people admitted to hospital for whatever reason - in a place with more than 7 million people quite a few heart attacks and fractures happen every day . Numerous reports of harassment of families of police in last few weeks , police who in some cases have been living peacefully in Catalonia for more than 30 years or are Catalans . Hotels who had police or military as residents threatened with closure ( non renewal of licenses or building licenses rejected ) - we`re not talking of angry protesters after Sunday`s events but something planned over many years .
Even worse , extreme pressure from independence movements over the last decade or more in education . 4000 school teachers have left Catalonia in recent years for example . The stranglehold of independence supporters in other sectors - police , fire service , education and the media are things that have been commented on many times in the last decade or so in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain .
More important what will happen now ? Noone really knows . Extreme element of independence movement ( a small element of Catalan society - under 10 % probably ) must be thinking they`re dreaming as international press and clumsiness / lethargy over recent years of Spanish government give them credibility they`ve never received from Catalans including from some
nationalist but not independence supporting parties who have used them to stay in power and deflect from corruption cases : Key will be how ordinary Catalans respond especially when reality of independence strikes home ( there`s been no debate about EU , currency , defence , language laws , taxation , education , ----and no indication that there are people ready to take control and run the country well - there`s a massive range of ideology within independence movement which is one reason why " results " haven`t been announced yet .

[JeMeSouviens]

Millions of people have seen images but how accurate are they ? Already lots of examples of stuff on internet being from 5 or 6 years ago in some cases with Catalan police being the aggressors during demonstrations being passed off as being from Sunday . Worth pointing out that Catalan regional police who are being accused of being passive or worse by their national colleagues ( ? ) have received far more accusations of brutality than Spanish national police or Guardia Civil in Catalonia in recent years . Most vocal victim who claimed she had all 20 fingers broken 1 by 1 has now admitted on Catalan TV ( run by independence supporters ) that none of her fingers are broken and that she just has a bruised hand , numbers of victims in hospital is number of people admitted to hospital for whatever reason - in a place with more than 7 million people quite a few heart attacks and fractures happen every day . Numerous reports of harassment of families of police in last few weeks , police who in some cases have been living peacefully in Catalonia for more than 30 years or are Catalans . Hotels who had police or military as residents threatened with closure ( non renewal of licenses or building licenses rejected ) - we`re not talking of angry protesters after Sunday`s events but something planned over many years .
Even worse , extreme pressure from independence movements over the last decade or more in education . 4000 school teachers have left Catalonia in recent years for example . The stranglehold of independence supporters in other sectors - police , fire service , education and the media are things that have been commented on many times in the last decade or so in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain .
More important what will happen now ? Noone really knows . Extreme element of independence movement ( a small element of Catalan society - under 10 % probably ) must be thinking they`re dreaming as international press and clumsiness / lethargy over recent years of Spanish government give them credibility they`ve never received from Catalans including from some
nationalist but not independence supporting parties who have used them to stay in power and deflect from corruption cases : Key will be how ordinary Catalans respond especially when reality of independence strikes home ( there`s been no debate about EU , currency , defence , language laws , taxation , education , ----and no indication that there are people ready to take control and run the country well - there`s a massive range of ideology within independence movement which is one reason why " results " haven`t been announced yet .

Oh come on, there were loads of pictures and vids with ballot boxes, international observers holding rubber bullets, etc. etc. You're into tinfoil hat territory here I think. Not least where did you find a woman with 20 fingers?! :wink:

[lucky]

The Socialist party in the Catalan parliament have won a court order to stop the Catalan parliament siting as they oppose a Declaration of Independence. Whilst there’s support for independence it’s nowhere near the 90% mark that’s been claimed.

[One Day Soon]

The Socialist party in the Catalan parliament have won a court order to stop the Catalan parliament siting as they oppose a Declaration of Independence. Whilst there’s support for independence it’s nowhere near the 90% mark that’s been claimed.


Now, as they say, it's a ball game.

If the Catalan Parliament can't be said to be singing with one voice on this where do events go next?

Looks like Spain's politicians are no better than anywhere else. Puigdemont seems to have massively overplayed his hand and Rajoy to have massively misjudged his.

[ronaldo7]

Millions of people have seen images but how accurate are they ? Already lots of examples of stuff on internet being from 5 or 6 years ago in some cases with Catalan police being the aggressors during demonstrations being passed off as being from Sunday . Worth pointing out that Catalan regional police who are being accused of being passive or worse by their national colleagues ( ? ) have received far more accusations of brutality than Spanish national police or Guardia Civil in Catalonia in recent years . Most vocal victim who claimed she had all 20 fingers broken 1 by 1 has now admitted on Catalan TV ( run by independence supporters ) that none of her fingers are broken and that she just has a bruised hand , numbers of victims in hospital is number of people admitted to hospital for whatever reason - in a place with more than 7 million people quite a few heart attacks and fractures happen every day . Numerous reports of harassment of families of police in last few weeks , police who in some cases have been living peacefully in Catalonia for more than 30 years or are Catalans . Hotels who had police or military as residents threatened with closure ( non renewal of licenses or building licenses rejected ) - we`re not talking of angry protesters after Sunday`s events but something planned over many years .
Even worse , extreme pressure from independence movements over the last decade or more in education . 4000 school teachers have left Catalonia in recent years for example . The stranglehold of independence supporters in other sectors - police , fire service , education and the media are things that have been commented on many times in the last decade or so in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain .
More important what will happen now ? Noone really knows . Extreme element of independence movement ( a small element of Catalan society - under 10 % probably ) must be thinking they`re dreaming as international press and clumsiness / lethargy over recent years of Spanish government give them credibility they`ve never received from Catalans including from some
nationalist but not independence supporting parties who have used them to stay in power and deflect from corruption cases : Key will be how ordinary Catalans respond especially when reality of independence strikes home ( there`s been no debate about EU , currency , defence , language laws , taxation , education , ----and no indication that there are people ready to take control and run the country well - there`s a massive range of ideology within independence movement which is one reason why " results " haven`t been announced yet .

Wow, I think I'll just continue to watch the live streams from the streets thanks.

[pollution]

I can't help but think that some Catalan people are starry eyed in their desire for independence.

After all is said and done only 38% of those entitled to vote actually voted for independence.

What is the fuss all about?

[JeMeSouviens]

Now, as they say, it's a ball game.

If the Catalan Parliament can't be said to be singing with one voice on this where do events go next?

Looks like Spain's politicians are no better than anywhere else. Puigdemont seems to have massively overplayed his hand and Rajoy to have massively misjudged his.

For info, the Catalan parliament has 135 members:

Pro-indy:

PdeCat/ERC coalition 62
CUP 10


Anti-indy:

PSC (Catalan branch of PSOE) 16 - they're nominally in favour of more autonomy aiui
PPC (Rajoy's PP) 10
Citizens 25


On fence (support holding agreed referendum, neutral on indy):

CSQP (Podemos/Green alliance) 11


I don't think this move by the PSC makes any odds, it's the Spanish Constitutional Court that made the ruling and the Catalan gov has ignored them so far. They'd be better served putting pressure on the central PSOE to encourage mediation.

The Catalan gov has made some moves towards mediation via the Archbish of Barcelona and the Vatican. Serious or window dressing? Who knows, they do seem to be stalling for a few days on UDI.

The Spanish Podemos party has offered to mediate, welcomed by Catalans, turned down flat by Rajoy. They have also made overtures to the PSOE (Spanish socialist party) to force Rajoy out (PP is in minority).

[lapsedhibee]

I can't help but think that some Catalan people are starry eyed in their desire for independence.

After all is said and done only 38% of those entitled to vote actually voted for independence.

What is the fuss all about?

You dispute, then, Chemical Rajoy's assertion that 'there has not been a referendum in Catalonia'? That idiocy on its own would be guaranteed to generate a fuss.

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't help but think that some Catalan people are starry eyed in their desire for independence.

After all is said and done only 38% of those entitled to vote actually voted for independence.

What is the fuss all about?

38% of those entitled to vote voted Yes.
4% of those entitled to vote voted No.

15% of those entitled to vote voted but their votes were stolen/confiscated* by Spanish police.

42% didn't vote - nobody knows the breakdown among them of the apathetic/principled opposition to referendum/intimidated by police into not voting/didn't manage to get to an open polling station. Probably all 4 were present to varying degrees.

The result does not provide conclusive proof of a Yes majority but it hints that in "normal" circumstances they would have won handily.

What it definitely does not do is provide proof of some sort of "silent majority" as some pro-Spain media outlets are stating. :rolleyes:



* delete to taste

[JeMeSouviens]

Statement by Ada Colau, the mayor of Barcelona (represents the left wing Barcelona en Comu party which is, I think, supportive of a referendum but anti or neutral on independence):



The government of the PP persists in its lies. It continues to deny what is obvious to the international press and to everyone who has seen the images of the police crackdown on October 1 in Catalunya: that there was violence, brutality, viciousness.
For many years, the right-wing in Spain has created a false and distorted image of what is happening in Catalunya. They speak of totalitarianism, of a broken society, of a population cowed by violent separatists. Even the words they choose are not neutral. “Seditious” and “separatist” are not descriptive terms but rather are highly charged. They begin by dehumanizing the other with these words … and they end by beating elderly women in the doors of schools, and calling this behaviour “professionalism”, “proportionality” and “defence of democracy”.
When there are two very different versions of the same reality, it is best to analyse the facts.It is a fact that on October 1, 844 people were injured. One of them has almost lost an eye…proportionality? What is proportional to an eye? What is proportional to pushing a woman down stairs? To grabbing elderly women by the hair? To the fear that children felt and still feel at seeing their schools damaged?
I am not in favour of independence for Catalunya, and I do not support unilateral actions. I have said this many times and I say it again. I am very critical of the government of Puigdemont and I do not like how things have been handled. But there is something which rises above our individual opinions and which should unite all of us who believe in and defend rights, freedom and democracy: the use of state violence against a peaceful population cannot be tolerated.
Today the government spokesman has called the Catalans who demonstrated against the police repression “Nazis”. Again, the words … Nazis? Is Mr. Hernando aware of what the Nazis did? Did the Nazis demonstrate peacefully for years to secure the right to vote? Did the Nazis protect schools while hundreds of police beat them? The thousands of men and women, young and old, who today have filled the streets chanting “We are people of peace” are really “Nazis”? Using the word “Nazi” so carelessly is an insult to the victims of Nazism and Mr. Hernando should be ashamed.If what I am writing manages to cross informational borders, if people outside of Catalunya read it and want to know what is happening here, I would respectfully ask them to attempt to analyse this conflict with an open mind. I would dare them to question what is being said by government spokespeople, what is being denied and, even worse, what is being justified.
We are facing a state crisis without precedent and I am concerned about the complete impasse in the relationship between the Catalan and Spanish governments. But what would be truly tragic would be if we allow the many ties of fraternity and affection that unite us, the people, to be fractured. We cannot allow this.
We have been hit. We have been hurt. It will not be easy to forget this. We need your support.
What has happened violates the fundamental rights and freedoms of all of us: Catalans, Spaniards, Europeans…Today it is Catalunya, but tomorrow it may be anywhere if we accept this and it goes unpunished. If we justify it, we are lost. Everyone loses. Democracy loses.
Our fathers, mothers and grandparents who together fought for democracy would not forgive us. For them, for their legacy, let us join together to save democracy, to remove from their posts those people who ordered this crackdown and who are incapable of seeking political and peaceful solutions. Those in government must listen, must respect the people, must put forth positive proposals and alternatives and, above all, must never act against an unarmed population.

[IberianHibernian]

For info, the Catalan parliament has 135 members:

Pro-indy:

PdeCat/ERC coalition 62
CUP 10


Anti-indy:

PSC (Catalan branch of PSOE) 16 - they're nominally in favour of more autonomy aiui
PPC (Rajoy's PP) 10
Citizens 25


On fence (support holding agreed referendum, neutral on indy):

CSQP (Podemos/Green alliance) 11


I don't think this move by the PSC makes any odds, it's the Spanish Constitutional Court that made the ruling and the Catalan gov has ignored them so far. They'd be better served putting pressure on the central PSOE to encourage mediation.

The Catalan gov has made some moves towards mediation via the Archbish of Barcelona and the Vatican. Serious or window dressing? Who knows, they do seem to be stalling for a few days on UDI.

The Spanish Podemos party has offered to mediate, welcomed by Catalans, turned down flat by Rajoy. They have also made overtures to the PSOE (Spanish socialist party) to force Rajoy out (PP is in minority).From your posts I assume you live in Catalonia or have close links with there . So you`re following news from Catalan sources while I`m mainly getting information from news sources from channels / press etc based in other parts of the peninsula . So I`m reading that stalling on UDI is due to split in pro independence factions and that Rajoy had met archbishops of Madrid and Barcelona on Tuesday . I have read about Podemos offering to mediate but haven`t read anywhere that most Catalans would welcome that - get the impression Spanish authorities don`t want any mediation and Catalan independence side want mediation more for windowdressing as you called it .

[IberianHibernian]

38% of those entitled to vote voted Yes.
4% of those entitled to vote voted No.

15% of those entitled to vote voted but their votes were stolen/confiscated* by Spanish police.

42% didn't vote - nobody knows the breakdown among them of the apathetic/principled opposition to referendum/intimidated by police into not voting/didn't manage to get to an open polling station. Probably all 4 were present to varying degrees.

The result does not provide conclusive proof of a Yes majority but it hints that in "normal" circumstances they would have won handily.

What it definitely does not do is provide proof of some sort of "silent majority" as some pro-Spain media outlets are stating. :rolleyes:



* delete to tasteWhat about people who voted more than once ?

[CapitalGreen]

What about people who voted more than once ?

Depends. Did any No voters duplicate votes or was it solely people voting Yes?

[One Day Soon]

Depends. Did any No voters duplicate votes or was it solely people voting Yes?


Reading this and all the other info on this thread and elsewhere the term that comes to mind is 'clusterf***'.

[JeMeSouviens]

From your posts I assume you live in Catalonia or have close links with there . So you`re following news from Catalan sources while I`m mainly getting information from news sources from channels / press etc based in other parts of the peninsula . So I`m reading that stalling on UDI is due to split in pro independence factions and that Rajoy had met archbishops of Madrid and Barcelona on Tuesday . I have read about Podemos offering to mediate but haven`t read anywhere that most Catalans would welcome that - get the impression Spanish authorities don`t want any mediation and Catalan independence side want mediation more for windowdressing as you called it .

No, I'm just interested. Also following the English language version of El Pais which reads a lot like your posts.

[lord bunberry]

Although it's a different situation, it's pretty obvious that yes voters in the Scottish referendum are behind the Catalans, and the No voters are defending the Spanish.
Being a nationalist I'm 100% behind the Catalans in their struggle for independence.

[JeMeSouviens]

Although it's a different situation, it's pretty obvious that yes voters in the Scottish referendum are behind the Catalans, and the No voters are defending the Spanish.
Being a nationalist I'm 100% behind the Catalans in their struggle for independence.

Apart from IberianHibernian, think that's more or less true.

Having said that, I'd much rather they could have a properly managed, legal referendum and that Catalonia, Spain and the EU would say in advance they'd respect the result.

[Beefster]

Although it's a different situation, it's pretty obvious that yes voters in the Scottish referendum are behind the Catalans, and the No voters are defending the Spanish.
Being a nationalist I'm 100% behind the Catalans in their struggle for independence.

I disagree. Folk generally don’t fit into neat, little boxes like that.

I’m entirely indifferent to the independence question but utterly appalled at the way the Spanish government have dealt with the situation.

[danhibees1875]

Although it's a different situation, it's pretty obvious that yes voters in the Scottish referendum are behind the Catalans, and the No voters are defending the Spanish.
Being a nationalist I'm 100% behind the Catalans in their struggle for independence.

That's how I've seen it from my limited sample too - I don't really understand tbh.
I know nothing about the arguments and reasons for/against Catalonian independence so don't have an opinion personally other than the violence should be condemned.

[lord bunberry]

Apart from IberianHibernian, think that's more or less true.

Having said that, I'd much rather they could have a properly managed, legal referendum and that Catalonia, Spain and the EU would say in advance they'd respect the result.
:agree: I would think that a referendum agreed by all sides would be the best for everyone, but in the absence of one I don’t see what the Catalans can do.

[lord bunberry]

I disagree. Folk generally don’t fit into neat, little boxes like that.

I’m entirely indifferent to the independence question but utterly appalled at the way the Spanish government have dealt with the situation.
In this particular instance I think it in the main does work like that. Most people won’t have a strong opinion on Catalan independence, but it’s human nature to see another situation from your own point of view. Obviously there will be exceptions to that.

[lord bunberry]

That's how I've seen it from my limited sample too - I don't really understand tbh.
I know nothing about the arguments and reasons for/against Catalonian independence so don't have an opinion personally other than the violence should be condemned.
Similarly I only have a limited knowledge of the Catalan situation. What I’m against is a government of any country denying people the right to self determination.
I also agree about violence being condemned, I just hope things don’t escalate.

[IberianHibernian]

No, I'm just interested. Also following the English language version of El Pais which reads a lot like your posts. Good point about the press though I`m certainly not basing my opinion on El Pais or any other Spanish paper though I suspect journalists in Spanish national press will be freer to express their ideas on Catalan situation ( now and in last 10 - 20 years ) than their colleagues who work for Catalan press . When I say freer I mean because they won`t be intimidated by others while a Catalan journalist will think many times before attacking independence .

[Hibrandenburg]

Good point about the press though I`m certainly not basing my opinion on El Pais or any other Spanish paper though I suspect journalists in Spanish national press will be freer to express their ideas on Catalan situation ( now and in last 10 - 20 years ) than their colleagues who work for Catalan press . When I say freer I mean because they won`t be intimidated by others while a Catalan journalist will think many times before attacking independence .

Just like in Scotland you mean :wink:

[Sylar]

Although it's a different situation, it's pretty obvious that yes voters in the Scottish referendum are behind the Catalans, and the No voters are defending the Spanish.
Being a nationalist I'm 100% behind the Catalans in their struggle for independence.

I can't, and don't agree with that at all.

I was 100% a No in the last IndyRef - and if another one were to take place tomorrow, I'd be a No again.

But we were able to have a referendum that didn't experience mass violence/casualties on one side. Sure, the Scottish referendum was divisive, bitter and unpleasant a lot of the time, but we were given the opportunity and a democratic consensus was reached at its conclusion.

Seeing what happened in Catalonia was appalling, and I haven't come across anyone in my circles who voiced anything other than disgust, irrespective of their stance in the Scottish referendum.

[IberianHibernian]

Although it's a different situation, it's pretty obvious that yes voters in the Scottish referendum are behind the Catalans, and the No voters are defending the Spanish.
Being a nationalist I'm 100% behind the Catalans in their struggle for independence.You`re probably right if you`re talking of a simplistic : Scot believes in Scottish independence therefore supports every other independence movement ( Corsica , Quebec , Galicia, etc ) Scot against Scottish independence opposes any independence movement abroad . In my case I`ve been clear , I`m a lifelong supporter of Scottish independence and in the case of Catalonia I believe they should at some point have the chance to decide if they want to continue being part of Spain and / or the EU : I`ve never said I`m against independence for Catalonia ( though an independent Catalonia would have problem of trying to be a member of EU which one of the independence activists CUP are totally opposed to ) in fact I`ve spent decades arguing with Spaniards why I understand independence demands of some Catalans / Galicians /Basques . So any arguments I`ve said here in the last week are not about Catalan independence ( that`s for Catalans to decide but after a free debate which has never happened in Catalonia and is unlikely to be possible for a few years unless things change ) but about how the international press has presented news .

[IberianHibernian]

Just like in Scotland you mean :wink:During the 2014 referendum campaign I often thought the anti YES bias was terrible . Not quite sure if that`s what you`re asking . What I`m saying is that not many Catalan journalists who don`t believe in independence will have expressed those views clearly in public - again I stress in the last 10 - 20 years not just in the last week .

[IberianHibernian]

I can't, and don't agree with that at all.

I was 100% a No in the last IndyRef - and if another one were to take place tomorrow, I'd be a No again.

But we were able to have a referendum that didn't experience mass violence/casualties on one side. Sure, the Scottish referendum was divisive, bitter and unpleasant a lot of the time, but we were given the opportunity and a democratic consensus was reached at its conclusion.

Seeing what happened in Catalonia was appalling, and I haven't come across anyone in my circles who voiced anything other than disgust, irrespective of their stance in the Scottish referendum.Good points but you can hardly compare the Scottish referendum with votes in some parts of Catalonia in 2015 ( ? ) and again last week , both " illegal " / unofficial : I`ve already said on other threads that it`s up to the Catalans what happens there but it`s worth noting that historic Spanish politicians of left and right including many Catalans have been demanding more action from their party leaders to have their views expressed . I`m not defending or justifying scenes shown of Spanish police acting last week butI think it`s worth remembering that it`s not hard to find even stronger images with Spanish police especially the Catalan police acting during strikes in the last 12 months .

[lord bunberry]

I can't, and don't agree with that at all.

I was 100% a No in the last IndyRef - and if another one were to take place tomorrow, I'd be a No again.

But we were able to have a referendum that didn't experience mass violence/casualties on one side. Sure, the Scottish referendum was divisive, bitter and unpleasant a lot of the time, but we were given the opportunity and a democratic consensus was reached at its conclusion.

Seeing what happened in Catalonia was appalling, and I haven't come across anyone in my circles who voiced anything other than disgust, irrespective of their stance in the Scottish referendum.
Were you in favour of Catalan independence before the referendum?

[marinello59]

Although it's a different situation, it's pretty obvious that yes voters in the Scottish referendum are behind the Catalans, and the No voters are defending the Spanish.
Being a nationalist I'm 100% behind the Catalans in their struggle for independence.

That's simply not true. I don't know anybody who has not been appalled at the way the Spanish Government has handled this situation irrespective of their stance on Independence. How thoroughly depressing that some Nationalists simply can't understand that.

[Sylar]

Were you in favour of Catalan independence before the referendum?

I honestly don't have any opinion on Catalonia and it's quest for independence - it's not a subject I've ever done any great research into.

[lord bunberry]

That's simply not true. I don't know anybody who has not been appalled at the way the Spanish Government has handled this situation irrespective of their stance on Independence. How thoroughly depressing that some Nationalists simply can't understand that.
I should’ve made myself clearer in the post you quoted. Everyone seems appalled at the way Spain has handled this. My point was more on the question of Catalan independence. During the Scottish referendum there were quite a few Catalans over here supporting independence. Since then there’s been a bond between the Scots and the Catalans.
Thats the point I was trying to make. If you supported Scottish independence, you are more likely to be sympathetic to the Catalans in their quest for independence, and vice versa.

[IberianHibernian]

I should’ve made myself clearer in the post you quoted. Everyone seems appalled at the way Spain has handled this. My point was more on the question of Catalan independence. During the Scottish referendum there were quite a few Catalans over here supporting independence. Since then there’s been a bond between the Scots and the Catalans.
Thats the point I was trying to make. If you supported Scottish independence, you are more likely to be sympathetic to the Catalans in their quest for independence, and vice versa.Maybe " curious about " might be more accurate than " sympathetic " if talking about independence movements in other countries ? Of course there are similarities between independence movements in Scotland / Catalonia /Corsica / Belgium / Basque Country / Khurdistan etc but also important differences . The president of the Catalan government was , for example , left in a difficult situation in an interview with a Catalan journalist last week when asked why he had voted not to support rights of Kurds and Kosovos ( I think ) to a referendum . In Scotland , of course you read about anti - English sentiments at times but I`m not aware of children of military personnel being harassed at school or judges threatened for not supporting Scottish independence ( am fully aware that legal situation is different ) or school children being lectured about the evils of the English ( the situation in schools is probably far more important than debates about politics and police and it`s very important that those in charge of Scottish education remember that as may be too late to remedy the situation in Catalonia ) . On Sunday there was a massive demonstration in Barcelona in favour of Spanish unity - I`ve already said I`m not Catalan so don`t have a right to decide if Catalonia should continue as part of Spain or not and I suppose a significant minority of the demonstrators will have been Spaniards from outside Catalonia but there was a massive presence and the most important thing was that at last Catalans against independence could express their views freely ( something unionists in Scotland take for granted but has not been an option in Catalonia in last decade ) . As for everyone being appalled at Spain`s handling of last Sunday`s events it`s simply not true . A significant number of Catalans and others from the rest of Spain think action should have been taken earlier to prevent scenes which were shown to international press without any background to reasons for police actions and with no or very little coverage of pressure put on judges several weeks before " referendum " or pressure put on national police forces ( whether those including Catalan members of Policia Nacional or Policia Nacional from other regions ) and their families .
I`ve read my posts on this thread a few times and normally I`d side on the side of the " oppressed minority " but really having knowledge of life in Spain including something about life in Catalonia I feel obliged to give my opinion .

[Mibbes Aye]

I should’ve made myself clearer in the post you quoted. Everyone seems appalled at the way Spain has handled this. My point was more on the question of Catalan independence. During the Scottish referendum there were quite a few Catalans over here supporting independence. Since then there’s been a bond between the Scots and the Catalans.
Thats the point I was trying to make. If you supported Scottish independence, you are more likely to be sympathetic to the Catalans in their quest for independence, and vice versa.

Really?

There's nothing worse than a Scots Nat trying to cash in on the unfortunate scenes in Spain by trying to make out that Scots Nats share some similar affiliation with the Catalans, worse when the suggestion or hint is that there's been some similar sort of oppression. As Iberian has posted, the situations are vastly different, and as we saw today, hundreds of thousands of Catalans were marching against division and separation

It's pathetic and cringeworthy to make out that Scottish separatists share a bond with the Catalans, especially when it appears to be a blatant cash-in on the footage of separatist protesters being injured by police. It actually reminds me of Celtc fans doing the Palestinian thing.

[lord bunberry]

Really?

There's nothing worse than a Scots Nat trying to cash in on the unfortunate scenes in Spain by trying to make out that Scots Nats share some similar affiliation with the Catalans, worse when the suggestion or hint is that there's been some similar sort of oppression. As Iberian has posted, the situations are vastly different, and as we saw today, hundreds of thousands of Catalans were marching against division and separation

It's pathetic and cringeworthy to make out that Scottish separatists share a bond with the Catalans, especially when it appears to be a blatant cash-in on the footage of separatist protesters being injured by police. It actually reminds me of Celtc fans doing the Palestinian thing.
Yes really. I haven’t seen anyone try to cash in on the Catalan situation or claim similar oppression. What is happening in Catalonia isn’t going to have any bearing on the political situation in Scotland.
I don’t care how cringeworthy or pathetic you feel it is, it exists whether you like it or not. To compare it to the Celtic fans is completely wrong and shows a spectacular ignorance on your part.

[ronaldo7]

Maybe " curious about " might be more accurate than " sympathetic " if talking about independence movements in other countries ? Of course there are similarities between independence movements in Scotland / Catalonia /Corsica / Belgium / Basque Country / Khurdistan etc but also important differences . The president of the Catalan government was , for example , left in a difficult situation in an interview with a Catalan journalist last week when asked why he had voted not to support rights of Kurds and Kosovos ( I think ) to a referendum . In Scotland , of course you read about anti - English sentiments at times but I`m not aware of children of military personnel being harassed at school or judges threatened for not supporting Scottish independence ( am fully aware that legal situation is different ) or school children being lectured about the evils of the English ( the situation in schools is probably far more important than debates about politics and police and it`s very important that those in charge of Scottish education remember that as may be too late to remedy the situation in Catalonia ) . On Sunday there was a massive demonstration in Barcelona in favour of Spanish unity - I`ve already said I`m not Catalan so don`t have a right to decide if Catalonia should continue as part of Spain or not and I suppose a significant minority of the demonstrators will have been Spaniards from outside Catalonia but there was a massive presence and the most important thing was that at last Catalans against independence could express their views freely ( something unionists in Scotland take for granted but has not been an option in Catalonia in last decade ) . As for everyone being appalled at Spain`s handling of last Sunday`s events it`s simply not true . A significant number of Catalans and others from the rest of Spain think action should have been taken earlier to prevent scenes which were shown to international press without any background to reasons for police actions and with no or very little coverage of pressure put on judges several weeks before " referendum " or pressure put on national police forces ( whether those including Catalan members of Policia Nacional or Policia Nacional from other regions ) and their families .
I`ve read my posts on this thread a few times and normally I`d side on the side of the " oppressed minority " but really having knowledge of life in Spain including something about life in Catalonia I feel obliged to give my opinion .

As you are resident in Spain, I'm interested in how the news you're getting is so far removed from the stuff I can see on social media. The scenes of violence I witnessed a week passed Sunday really happened, didn't they?

I know that 350,000 marched yesterday in Barcelona for the State to remain intact, and I take your point that many were bussed in for the march, from outwith Catalonia, but I can't think of many who were bussed from outside Catalonia in the Million that marched a week passed Sunday, for Independence.

What's your thoughts on the folk on the march yesterday? Is it fine to have fascists on the streets of Spain again?

[snooky]

It's good to hear both points of view being aired on Hibsnet. Even though I disagree with some, it does give me food for thought.
This is what a forum is all about. Providing what should be a better perception of what's going on.
Both sides have their own agendas and that's understandable. If Netters post what they believe to be the truth, that's about as much as we can hope for.

[marinello59]

As you are resident in Spain, I'm interested in how the news you're getting is so far removed from the stuff I can see on social media. The scenes of violence I witnessed a week passed Sunday really happened, didn't they?

I know that 350,000 marched yesterday in Barcelona for the State to remain intact, and I take your point that many were bussed in for the march, from outwith Catalonia, but I can't think of many who were bussed from outside Catalonia in the Million that marched a week passed Sunday, for Independence.

What's your thoughts on the folk on the march yesterday? Is it fine to have fascists on the streets of Spain again?

I would imagine he would give exactly the same answer to that question as everybody else here. :confused:
Scottish Dawn declared themselves to be part of the Independence movement yet as far as I how am aware nobody thought to ask those of us who want a Yes vote felt about that as the answer would be glaringly obvious.

[JeMeSouviens]

Really?

There's nothing worse than a Scots Nat trying to cash in on the unfortunate scenes in Spain by trying to make out that Scots Nats share some similar affiliation with the Catalans, worse when the suggestion or hint is that there's been some similar sort of oppression. As Iberian has posted, the situations are vastly different, and as we saw today, hundreds of thousands of Catalans were marching against division and separation

It's pathetic and cringeworthy to make out that Scottish separatists share a bond with the Catalans, especially when it appears to be a blatant cash-in on the footage of separatist protesters being injured by police. It actually reminds me of Celtc fans doing the Palestinian thing.

I have empathy with stateless Catalans who want to convince* the majority of their fellow citizens to run their own country. Does that make me cringeworthy and pathetic?


* edit - the way things are going, I suppose I should spell out through peaceful, democratic means, ideally an agreed referendum.

[JeMeSouviens]

As you are resident in Spain, I'm interested in how the news you're getting is so far removed from the stuff I can see on social media. The scenes of violence I witnessed a week passed Sunday really happened, didn't they?

I know that 350,000 marched yesterday in Barcelona for the State to remain intact, and I take your point that many were bussed in for the march, from outwith Catalonia, but I can't think of many who were bussed from outside Catalonia in the Million that marched a week passed Sunday, for Independence.

What's your thoughts on the folk on the march yesterday? Is it fine to have fascists on the streets of Spain again?

El Pais is one of Spain's mainstream newspapers and has an excellent English language site:

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html

Compare and contrast with Catalan press:

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/

[Hibrandenburg]

El Pais is one of Spain's mainstream newspapers and has an excellent English language site:

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html

Compare and contrast with Catalan press:

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/

Looks and feels a little like our own referendum. Just swap the Spanish flags for union flags and Catalan flags for Saltires.

[JeMeSouviens]

Puigdemont to address the Catalan parliament in just over 20 mins. Rumours that Spain has a special forces team standing by to arrest him. :eek:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Puigdemont to address the Catalan parliament in just over 20 mins. Rumours that Spain has a special forces team standing by to arrest him. :eek:

Ha hs, that would be funny but also quite sinister.

Using your military to arrest people? Why couldnt the police just do it?

[Moulin Yarns]

17:00 Here goes

[RyeSloan]

Ha hs, that would be funny but also quite sinister.

Using your military to arrest people? Why couldnt the police just do it?

It's the National Police that would be expected to arrest him not the Catalan Police.

So not the military although I assume they are a quasi military force anyway...

[JeMeSouviens]

Pro-indy Catalan benches still empty - Euronews reporting that Puigdemont is speaking to Jean Claude Juncker.

Edit: Session postponed for an hour.

[JeMeSouviens]

Live stream here:

http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/10/watch-live-catalan-leader-makes-highly-anticipated-address-to-parliament

[Moulin Yarns]

Pro-indy Catalan benches still empty - Euronews reporting that Puigdemont is speaking to Jean Claude Juncker.

Edit: Session postponed for an hour.

Beat me.

Businesses threatened to leave Catalonia. Where have you heard that before?

[RyeSloan]

Beat me.

Businesses threatened to leave Catalonia. Where have you heard that before?

They haven't threatened anything...they have already done it. Most of the Catalan based businesses in the IBEX have already moved their legal bases to Madrid or the like.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's the National Police that would be expected to arrest him not the Catalan Police.

So not the military although I assume they are a quasi military force anyway...

Makes more sense - cheers.

I had visions of SAS style rapelling down the outsidd and throwing in grenades

[CropleyWasGod]

They haven't threatened anything...they have already done it. Most of the Catalan based businesses in the IBEX have already moved their legal bases to Madrid or the like.Similar to the RBS shifting their Registered Office to England - type scenario then?

Presumably the staff remain in Catalonia, paying taxes and contributing to the economy.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Puigdemont hits the ball back to Madrid after talks with Tusk and the EU for more dialogue. Rajoy will be spewing.

[RyeSloan]

Similar to the RBS shifting their Registered Office to England - type scenario then?

Presumably the staff remain in Catalonia, paying taxes and contributing to the economy.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I assume so but not sure of what the ramifications would be if there was an Declaration of Independence...I assume the taxes would be to Madrid but honestly not following it that closely.

The poster suggested there was threats to leave I was merely pointing out that the legal home of most of the big Catalan companies had already been changed...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So they shat it.

This is getting more and more like Scotland... 😈

[Moulin Yarns]

They haven't threatened anything...they have already done it. Most of the Catalan based businesses in the IBEX have already moved their legal bases to Madrid or the like.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41582469



Catalonia is is one of Spain's wealthiest regions, but a stream of companies has announced plans to move head offices out of Catalonia in response to the crisis.

[snooky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41582469

To me that report read as a wee bit weighted. That's not like Auntie at all. :whistle:

[marinello59]

To me that report read as a wee bit weighted. That's not like Auntie at all. :whistle:

I'm really struggling to see why you would think that.

[snooky]

I'm really struggling to see why you would think that.

I agree with you it's not blatantly obvious however, subtleties like "the man that's trying to break up Spain" instead of "the man who seeks freedom for Catelonia" is what I mean. Why not just say "Carles Puigdemont, the Catelonian leader?"

[Beefster]

subtleties like "the man that's trying to break up Spain" instead of "the man who seeks freedom for Catelonia"

The first one is a statement of fact, I suppose. The second is predicated on the fact that the writer believes that Catalonia isn’t free already.

[Moulin Yarns]

The first one is a statement of fact, I suppose. The second is predicated on the fact that the writer believes that Catalonia isn’t free already.

But he is only wanting to "take back control" for the state of Catalonia from Spain.

[JeMeSouviens]

The political nature of the Spanish police is quite something.

This is from the twitter of the Union Federal de Policia, which I think is the equivalent of the Police Federation here.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLrzaCkX0AAbGdA.jpg

("Hablamos?" means "let's talk" and was the slogan, along with the Catalan "Parlem?", of a peace demo in Barcelona last weekend.)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Beat me.

Businesses threatened to leave Catalonia. Where have you heard that before?

Yet people have no trouble believing that the city of london will up sticks and move to Europe.

Seems people believing what they want to believe.

Fwiw, any international business (or a business that would suddenly become international) will have to takr into account any changes to their business environment, especially major ones like indy, brexit or catalexit.

The good news is its not as simple as just upping sticks and moving. Look at the trouble the EMA is having in relocating from London.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The political nature of the Spanish police is quite something.

This is from the twitter of the Union Federal de Policia, which I think is the equivalent of the Police Federation here.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLrzaCkX0AAbGdA.jpg

("Hablamos?" means "let's talk" and was the slogan, along with the Catalan "Parlem?", of a peace demo in Barcelona last weekend.)

That is slightly sinister...

[IberianHibernian]

As you are resident in Spain, I'm interested in how the news you're getting is so far removed from the stuff I can see on social media. The scenes of violence I witnessed a week passed Sunday really happened, didn't they?

I know that 350,000 marched yesterday in Barcelona for the State to remain intact, and I take your point that many were bussed in for the march, from outwith Catalonia, but I can't think of many who were bussed from outside Catalonia in the Million that marched a week passed Sunday, for Independence.

What's your thoughts on the folk on the march yesterday? Is it fine to have fascists on the streets of Spain again? I haven`t added to this thread for a week for a few reasons one being that I think whole issue is far too important to be treated like a student union debate . Millions of Spaniards of all political persuasions have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern, democratic nation in the last 40 odd years . Many of them have parents or grandparents who were victims of Franco regime (or try to forget that their ancestors supported Franco). Catalan president is a good example - his maternal grandfather was forced to leave Spain cause of Francoist oppression while his paternal grandfather also left Spain then returned (in this case to Andalusia) because he fought for Franco`s forces but escaped from his republican enemies . You seem to know a lot about Spanish society in the 21st century thus you feel confident enough to ask if I or anyone else who lives in Spain feels happy about the presence of some " fascists " in a demonstration - would you ask the same of a German joining a demonstration against independence for Bavaria or any other part of Germany if a couple of hundred idiots used occasion to make their presence felt ? Ironically too the term " fascism " has been used more in recent years to refer to Catalan independence supporters who have managed to impose their ideas in schools and other places in Catalonia . I`ve already said I believe all Catalans should have the right to decide if they want to remain part of Spain and the EU but that decision must be made in a legal vote and once there are guarantees that such a vote is possible .
Incidentally , re your comments about transportation to demonstration on 8th October and march on 1st October ( what march - were people not trying to vote that day ? ) do you really believe any statistics given ?

[IberianHibernian]

The political nature of the Spanish police is quite something.

This is from the twitter of the Union Federal de Policia, which I think is the equivalent of the Police Federation here.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLrzaCkX0AAbGdA.jpg

("Hablamos?" means "let's talk" and was the slogan, along with the Catalan "Parlem?", of a peace demo in Barcelona last weekend.)Are you seriously trying to say that this reflects ideas of Spanish people in the 21st century whatever region they live in or whether they are members of the police or armed forces or not ?

[JeMeSouviens]

Are you seriously trying to say that this reflects ideas of Spanish people in the 21st century whatever region they live in or whether they are members of the police or armed forces or not ?

tbh, when I saw it I assumed it was a spoof account but the twitter feed is embedded in their website, http://www.ufpol.org/ , and it's full of highly politicised anti-Catalan-independentist stuff. That pic is probably the standout example.

I'd never heard of the UFP until yesterday, so I don't know if they are the main police union or some small offshoot of something else. Do they represent mainstream police opinion? I have no idea, you tell me?

I wasn't saying anything about "ideas of Spanish people", I am saying they appear to have a highly politicised police force. I can't imagine a UK police organisation tweeting anything of the sort without it being a huge scandal. :dunno:

[Just Alf]

Are you seriously trying to say that this reflects ideas of Spanish people in the 21st century whatever region they live in or whether they are members of the police or armed forces or not ?

I took it as the police of whatever section should, in a democracy, be there for all the people and should refrain from showing political views, don't you think that's fair enough?

[JeMeSouviens]

I haven`t added to this thread for a week for a few reasons one being that I think whole issue is far too important to be treated like a student union debate . Millions of Spaniards of all political persuasions have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern, democratic nation in the last 40 odd years . Many of them have parents or grandparents who were victims of Franco regime (or try to forget that their ancestors supported Franco). Catalan president is a good example - his maternal grandfather was forced to leave Spain cause of Francoist oppression while his paternal grandfather also left Spain then returned (in this case to Andalusia) because he fought for Franco`s forces but escaped from his republican enemies . You seem to know a lot about Spanish society in the 21st century thus you feel confident enough to ask if I or anyone else who lives in Spain feels happy about the presence of some " fascists " in a demonstration - would you ask the same of a German joining a demonstration against independence for Bavaria or any other part of Germany if a couple of hundred idiots used occasion to make their presence felt ? Ironically too the term " fascism " has been used more in recent years to refer to Catalan independence supporters who have managed to impose their ideas in schools and other places in Catalonia . I`ve already said I believe all Catalans should have the right to decide if they want to remain part of Spain and the EU but that decision must be made in a legal vote and once there are guarantees that such a vote is possible .
Incidentally , re your comments about transportation to demonstration on 8th October and march on 1st October ( what march - were people not trying to vote that day ? ) do you really believe any statistics given ?

Absolutely agree with that, but how do you propose they go about securing such a vote?

Do you follow the PP line that they must persuade the rest of Spain to change the constitution by achieving a 2/3 majority of the Spanish parliament and a referendum in all of Spain? When the PP knows fine well it will always implacably oppose that change and have the numbers to get the 1/3 it needs to block it?

From an outsider's limited viewpoint, it would appear that the "constitutional path" is an absolute dead end.

[IberianHibernian]

I took it as the police of whatever section should, in a democracy, be there for all the people and should refrain from showing political views, don't you think that's fair enough?I agree 100% and am not quite sure why you are asking me . Of the three police forces which are legally obliged to protect the interests of everyone in Catalonia ( Catalan run Mossos and nationally run Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional ) it`s only the Mossos ( and even then only a very small number with others regretting behaviour of some of their colleagues ) that have been accused of being influenced politically . I`d already seen the picture with police and agree it`s a joke in very bad taste intended to be read by colleagues at a time of maximum tension ( police being forced to leave hotels etc without being able to act as any police force in Europe would in similar circumstances for example and children being harassed at school ) . Fortunately I`ve only had very limited contact with the police in Spain but I`ve had enough contact to say without any doubt at all that politically their views reflect the ideas of Spaniards all over Spain including Catalonia and the Basque Country .

[IberianHibernian]

tbh, when I saw it I assumed it was a spoof account but the twitter feed is embedded in their website, http://www.ufpol.org/ , and it's full of highly politicised anti-Catalan-independentist stuff. That pic is probably the standout example.

I'd never heard of the UFP until yesterday, so I don't know if they are the main police union or some small offshoot of something else. Do they represent mainstream police opinion? I have no idea, you tell me?

I wasn't saying anything about "ideas of Spanish people", I am saying they appear to have a highly politicised police force. I can't imagine a UK police organisation tweeting anything of the sort without it being a huge scandal. :dunno:I`d already seen the picture on webpage of sports paper Marca . I`m not sure exactly who was supposed to read it and who not but assumed it was a joke ( in very bad taste ) intended for police colleagues posted at a moment of maximum tension for police forces with uncertainty about what was happening in Catalonia and police being harrassed in hotels etc but unable to retaliate in case it caused even more problems ( threads like this show how important propoganda is and Catalan independence movement are several years ahead of rest of Spain in this issue - infiltration of education and police systems for example ) . More importantly , I disagree with your comment about highly politicised police force - I base that opinion on what I observe in everyday life in Spain and people I have met over many years . As for comparisons with UK police forces - you are talking about a tweet intended for workmates , not something meant for the general public : I suppose there are group chats within Scottish Police , English police forces which sometimes include jokes which could be considered to be in bad taste . I`m guessing here but I suspect that the % of Catalan police who would vote for independence would be similar to % in Police Scotland for Scottish independence - high 30s % on both sides with same % against independence and rest unsure .

[IberianHibernian]

Absolutely agree with that, but how do you propose they go about securing such a vote?

Do you follow the PP line that they must persuade the rest of Spain to change the constitution by achieving a 2/3 majority of the Spanish parliament and a referendum in all of Spain? When the PP knows fine well it will always implacably oppose that change and have the numbers to get the 1/3 it needs to block it?

From an outsider's limited viewpoint, it would appear that the "constitutional path" is an absolute dead end.You obviously know more than me when it comes to numbers . I`ve never read / heard of the 2 / 3 , 1 / 3 thing . Never once heard it quoted or read it . I certainly wouldn`t single out the PP either . Whatever the leader of the PSOE said at first he soon realised that the rest of his party ( Socialist party is particularly strong in the south of Spain from where many Andalusians have moved to and set up home in Catalonia over the last 40 years - these people and their children are fed up with discrimination against them ) is totally in favour of the unity of Spain . Likewise Ciudadanos party and even Podemos . Don`t forget either that independence majority in Barcelona includes support from parties whose first priority is anti capitalism with Catalan independence ( and independence for Valencian region etc ) more an opportunity to make an impact than anything else In Scottish parliament the SNP have support of Scottish Greens who support independence but also have other priorities I suppose but don`t think there are other parties which support independence but also oppose almost everything else . . As for change of constitution , it seems inevitable that it is going to happen but not just cause of situation in Catalonia since situation there in the last decade or more has shown that it is necessary to defend the rights of everyone in Spain and not just those who have built up campaign to oppose Spanish unity or use independence fights to achieve other ideas . I think this will mean that constitutional path is not a dead end but will be more difficult than if things had been done in a more democratic way by independence seekers .

[ronaldo7]

I haven`t added to this thread for a week for a few reasons one being that I think whole issue is far too important to be treated like a student union debate . Millions of Spaniards of all political persuasions have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern, democratic nation in the last 40 odd years . Many of them have parents or grandparents who were victims of Franco regime (or try to forget that their ancestors supported Franco). Catalan president is a good example - his maternal grandfather was forced to leave Spain cause of Francoist oppression while his paternal grandfather also left Spain then returned (in this case to Andalusia) because he fought for Franco`s forces but escaped from his republican enemies . You seem to know a lot about Spanish society in the 21st century thus you feel confident enough to ask if I or anyone else who lives in Spain feels happy about the presence of some " fascists " in a demonstration - would you ask the same of a German joining a demonstration against independence for Bavaria or any other part of Germany if a couple of hundred idiots used occasion to make their presence felt ? Ironically too the term " fascism " has been used more in recent years to refer to Catalan independence supporters who have managed to impose their ideas in schools and other places in Catalonia . I`ve already said I believe all Catalans should have the right to decide if they want to remain part of Spain and the EU but that decision must be made in a legal vote and once there are guarantees that such a vote is possible .
Incidentally , re your comments about transportation to demonstration on 8th October and march on 1st October ( what march - were people not trying to vote that day ? ) do you really believe any statistics given ?

Thanks for that.

I was asking a few Spaniards last night in the pub, we had a cordial discussion on the subject. I also have friends in Bilbao who are looking at the situation in Catalonia with new vigour.

You've continually mentioned the education system, and how it's being used in Catalonia, is it suppressing the masses? or is it educating them of their past, and a possible new future?

I think we can all agree that the boot boys were, and are still out in full force in Catalonia, it's just which side you think they're on.

Here's a piece by on the situation for your perusal giving an alternative view. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/10/11/slash-and-burn/

I noticed that El pais has sacked John Carlin for writing a piece, criticising the Spanish government. Nice paper.:rolleyes:

When all is said and done, I just wonder how the Catalan government, who've asked the Spanish gov, on many occasions for a binding referendum, are supposed to move forward.

I'm not sure anyone can take, as true, the stats offered by any side at the moment, considering the pilfering of ballot papers/boxes and the like.

[IberianHibernian]

Thanks for that.

I was asking a few Spaniards last night in the pub, we had a cordial discussion on the subject. I also have friends in Bilbao who are looking at the situation in Catalonia with new vigour.

You've continually mentioned the education system, and how it's being used in Catalonia, is it suppressing the masses? or is it educating them of their past, and a possible new future?

I think we can all agree that the boot boys were, and are still out in full force in Catalonia, it's just which side you think they're on.

Here's a piece by on the situation for your perusal giving an alternative view. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/10/11/slash-and-burn/

I noticed that El pais has sacked John Carlin for writing a piece, criticising the Spanish government. Nice paper.:rolleyes:

When all is said and done, I just wonder how the Catalan government, who've asked the Spanish gov, on many occasions for a binding referendum, are supposed to move forward.

I'm not sure anyone can take, as true, the stats offered by any side at the moment, considering the pilfering of ballot papers/boxes and the like.First of all great that people can have a cordial conversation about situation . In Spain , thankfully that is the situation too - the mood is sadness and disappointment more than anger except in circles of politicians who always have something to gain / lose .
Not quite sure what you mean about bootboys being out in force . I`ve seen reports of groups of football yobs fighting each other in Barcelona . Such groups exist in every country in Europe and in no way reflect views of Spaniards .
I`ve looked quickly at Bella Caledonia thing . I`ll read it again when I have more time but my first impression is that it starts badly with comment about Franco in first sentence then gets progressively worse . I`ve read things from Bella Caledonia before and generally agreed with most of it but think the article shows a complete ignorance of life in Spain including Catalonia . The author would do well to show his article to trade union leaders in Spain especially in Catalonia .Catalan nationalism has historically been supported by the Catalan bourgoise ( Sp) ( Basque nationalism has been left wing ) and even now Puigdemont and Mas etc are having to put up with support of extreme left or anti system to force independence through . I`m a lifelong supporter of Scottish independence and I actually think articles like this will have a negative impact on campaign for Scottish independence .
I`m not good at links but I`d recommend an article called " En Francoland " by a Spanish journalist called Antonio Muñoz Molina in El Pais ( I haven`t heard about John Carlin being booted out but will look into it ) https://elpais.com/cultura/2017/10/10/babelia/1507657374_425961.html about problem Spain has with foreign journalists constantly mentioning Franco ( before and after recent events ) . It`s in Spanish and doesn`t seem to be in English language version of El Pais but I suppose Google translation will help .
The question of education is very important in my opinion - we all see images of police at demonstrations and other events , likewise with politicians but question of what goes on in schools is not so obvious . There have been numerous reports of comments from teachers in Catalan schools after 1st October events mainly in schools where there are children of police ( aged 5 in some cases ) being told how evil the police etc are - diplomatically we can say this was due to understandable anger on the spur of the moment on one day but there have been numerous other reports too in recent years of bullying of teachers and pupils who don`t support independence ( thousands of teachers have left Catalonia in recent years at a time when jobs have been hard to find in the rest of Spain ) . I recommend looking for You Tube videos of a Spanish politician called Toni Cantó ( he`s actually more famous as an actor than a politician ) talking in Spanish parliament about Catalan independence movement and especially problems in classrooms . It`s especially important as he`s from the region of Valencia and he`s worried the same process could be starting in Valencia and Balearic islands . He`s from the centre / right Ciudadanos party - I`ve no great sympathy with his party but think his comments on this subject are well worth listening to and something Scottish nationalists myself included should always remember .

[ronaldo7]

We now have political prisoners in Spain.

https://t.co/rJUh8zQWS9

[IberianHibernian]

We now have political prisoners in Spain.

https://t.co/rJUh8zQWS9BBC article mentions that 2 supporters of Catalan independence have been arrested not that they have been arrested for their political views .They have been arrested on the orders of independent judges ( not by the Spanish government ) so not sure how neutral observers from outwith Spain would consider them to be " political prisoners " - there is a lot of clear evidence that they are guily of inciting violence against representatives of Catalan and Spanish judicial systems - judges and police . In many ways they represent the reason for the current problems - people who have a clear political agenda who have been given key jobs in organisations set up for political reasons . Arresting them will probably prove to be a mistake since it`ll give them even more propoganda points outside Spain ( BBC article is one example ) . Millions of Catalns would feel safer and happier if such people didn`t have such important positions in Catalan society . Whatever happens politically in Catalonia ( independence , status quo , still part of Spain but with even more autonomy ) I hope the Catalans can live in peace and with decent leaders cause if two who have been detained today are representative of their future leaders then there`ll be an exodus and not just of Catalans who feel Spanish and want to remain part of Spain .

[marinello59]

We now have political prisoners in Spain.

https://t.co/rJUh8zQWS9

And still the leaders of the EU look the other way.

[JeMeSouviens]

BBC article mentions that 2 supporters of Catalan independence have been arrested not that they have been arrested for their political views .They have been arrested on the orders of independent judges ( not by the Spanish government ) so not sure how neutral observers from outwith Spain would consider them to be " political prisoners " - there is a lot of clear evidence that they are guily of inciting violence against representatives of Catalan and Spanish judicial systems - judges and police . In many ways they represent the reason for the current problems - people who have a clear political agenda who have been given key jobs in organisations set up for political reasons . Arresting them will probably prove to be a mistake since it`ll give them even more propoganda points outside Spain ( BBC article is one example ) . Millions of Catalns would feel safer and happier if such people didn`t have such important positions in Catalan society . Whatever happens politically in Catalonia ( independence , status quo , still part of Spain but with even more autonomy ) I hope the Catalans can live in peace and with decent leaders cause if two who have been detained today are representative of their future leaders then there`ll be an exodus and not just of Catalans who feel Spanish and want to remain part of Spain .

The ANC is a pressure group set up specifically to campaign for Catalan independence. Having someone whose political views weren't in favour of Catalan independence might be considered somewhat odd?

The Catalan protests and defence of their referendum have been overwhelmingly peaceful, even when riot police were laying into people with batons. I'm not sure how much more "decent" they could be?

[JeMeSouviens]

As mentioned above, the journalist John Carlin (who has a Spanish mother) had his contract terminated by the Spanish newspaper, El Pais, for this article published in The Times:

http://www.collectiuemma.cat/article/2813/catalan-independence-arrogance-of-madrid-explains-this-chaos-john-carlin-in-the-times


Catalan independence: arrogance of Madrid explains this chaos


John Carlin

October 7 2017, The Times

Shortly before the King of Spain addressed the nation this week, some of his more rational-minded subjects hoped that maybe, just maybe, he might rise above the petty-mindedness of the Madrid political establishment. He could, they thought, offer a generous vision of how to resolve the crisis caused by the escalating clamour for Catalan independence. No such luck. By the end of his six-minute speech Felipe VI had only made things worse.
Stiff in his bearing, coldly commanding in his tone, he did not build bridges, he dug trenches. He did not lament the police violence during last Sunday’s simulacrum of a referendum in Catalonia, so damaging to his country’s global image; he denounced the “irresponsibility” and “scorn” of the elected Catalan government and threatened more violence. It was the “responsibility of the legitimate state powers”, the king warned, “to ensure constitutional order”, code for if the Catalan government makes good on its promise to declare unilateral independence, we’ll send in the tanks.

Speaking on behalf not of the nation but of central government, he did as prime minister Mariano Rajoy has done these last five years: he abdicated responsibility and, oblivious to what he was doing, abdicated his sovereign hold on the hearts of Catalonia’s increasingly embittered 7.5 million people, 80 per cent of whom are in favour of the right to vote on independence.

Before Sunday several polls indicated that the secessionist vote in Catalonia stood at between 40 and 50 per cent. There can be no question that those numbers have since risen. As a British friend who knows Spanish politics well remarked, minutes after the king’s speech, “that’s another ten points for the independentistas”. Yes. To add to the ten or more they added after the police clubbings of last Sunday.

I have a more than academic interest in this unfolding slow-motion disaster. My mother is Spanish, from Madrid. I lived 15 years in Catalonia until I moved to London four years ago, but I have always meant to return and applied for a Spanish passport after the Brexit referendum. I love Spain and so am against Catalan independence but I have never loved Spanish politics, especially the authoritarian strain represented by the people in power today and shared by much of the Madrid establishment. I have never forgotten a conversation I had 15 years ago with a man who remains a pillar of that establishment. “I can’t stand the Catalans,” he exclaimed. “They always want to make a deal. They’ve got no principles, for God’s sake! No principles!”

It is Madrid’s adherence to its blessed principles that has led us into today’s dangerous mess. It also explains what, to the Anglo-Saxon mind, seems to be the inexplicable refusal of Rajoy’s government to try to solve the problem through international mediation, or dialogue of any kind. “Principles” in the Catalan context means the Spanish constitution, which does not allow for a Catalan referendum on sovereignty. One might think that a constitution, being a necessarily fallible human document, would be open to change as circumstances change. Not on the Catalan question; not for Rajoy.

Miguel de Unamuno, a celebrated Spanish writer of the last century, lamented what he saw as a national political spirit contaminated “by the barracks and the sacristy”. My sense has long been that the intransigent habit of thought exhibited by Spain’s political classes is the inheritance of 500 years of Catholic absolutism. Spanish Catholicism was to Christendom generally what Saudi Islam is to the Muslim world today: the most resistant to outside philosophical, political, cultural or scientific influence. I don’t think it is any accident that there is no translation in Spanish, or in Arabic, for the English word “compromise”. The concept of “I cede a little and you cede a little so we both end up winning” is alien to the Spanish political mind.

It is why the Spanish empire lost Cuba in 1898 and before that California and the rest of what is now the western United States. It is the chief reason why, on the Catalan question, the centre-right Popular party government of Rajoy and the Madrid establishment have achieved the opposite of what they claim to want: instead of working to preserve the unity of Spain they alienate the Catalan people and fuel the drive for independence.


Put simply, they are third-rate politicians. Rule one for the intelligent resolution of a dispute like the Catalan one is to know your enemy: put yourself in their shoes, try to understand why they think the way they do and then try to persuade them to come around to your point of view, or at least to meet you halfway. The Struggle for Catalonia, a new book by the New York Times correspondent in Spain, Raphael Minder, ends on just this note. The peoples of Spain will not be reunited, Minder writes, so long as the political establishment in Madrid makes no effort to “understand the feelings expressed by hundreds of thousands on the streets of Barcelona”.

Catalan nationalist feelings go back at least 300 years. On September 11, 1714, at the end of the Spanish war of succession, Barcelona fell after a long siege to the army of Felipe V, Spain’s first Bourbon king. His namesake might have trodden with a little more tact in his speech this week had he chosen to recall that this glorious defeat, the Catalan Dunkirk, today marks the date of Catalonia’s annual national holiday. It is a commemoration of the suicidal heroism of the city’s defenders but also a reminder of the oppression they suffered under Felipe V. An absolute ruler, he demolished a fifth of the city, closed the Catalan parliament and the universities and banned Catalan as an administrative language.

An absolute ruler of more recent memory, Francisco Franco, fanned the flames of nationalist grievance by carrying out uncannily similar measures after he assumed absolute power in 1939 following the victory of his fascist forces in the Spanish civil war. Apart from the executions by firing squad of leading Catalan politicians and thousands more, he too suppressed the local language, the chief emblem of Catalan identity. Under Franco’s rule parents were not allowed to give their children Catalan names such as Jordi or Josep. The generalissimo chose to regard Catalan as a dialect, which was as insulting as it was wrong: Catalan is just as much a language in its own right as Spanish, French and Italian.

A hangover of the Franco era that continues to stir the nationalist pot is the disdain for Catalan among other Spaniards. It is accompanied by a dislike for Catalans generally, whom many choose to regard as snooty and superior when the truth is, I think, that they are merely shy. But nationalism is a sentiment, a simmering resentment towards a neighbour perceived to be abusive. Nationalism is not a plan. Independence is. What we see today is how one has evolved into the other and on a scale never before seen. Many who were once merely heart-sore nationalists are now active campaigners for independence.

The years 2006, 2010 and 2012 mark the progression. In 2006 the pro-independence vote stood at barely 15 per cent of the population. A decision taken that year gave hope that the number would drop: not only the Catalan parliament in Barcelona, but the national parliament in Madrid, voted in favour of a new statute defining Catalonia as a nation and granting it greater autonomy than it had enjoyed since the death of Franco in 1975. This included giving Catalonia a greater degree of judicial independence.

Delays in the implementation of the statute gave time for a Spanish nationalist backlash. In 2010 Rajoy’s Popular Party, then in opposition, succumbed to the impulse that sparked the explosion of Catalan independentismo and has led to the present crisis: seeking votes in the rest of Spain, it campaigned against the Catalan statute and took it to the notoriously politicised constitutional court, where it was overruled. The law trumped politics, the precedent that continues to hinder a solution of the problem today.

In 2012 what was then the centre-right Catalan government nevertheless tried to find an accommodation with Rajoy, who had become prime minister the year before. It sought talks to try to obtain fiscal concessions along the lines of those granted to the Basque country, whose government has a much greater authority over the collection and distribution of tax money. But Rajoy rebuffed them. Add the economic crisis and high unemployment to the outrage among ordinary Catalans at the scornful treatment they felt they had received and the upshot was the biggest protest anyone in Catalonia could remember. On the national holiday of September 11 a million people poured on to the streets of Barcelona.

What they called for was a legally binding independence referendum and the clamour only grew after the British government agreed to precisely such a vote in Scotland in 2014. But Rajoy’s government would not budge. The law was the law. Pragmatism was for him an unintelligible Greek word. It was as if he took his cue from the advice Franco once gave a friendly newspaper editor: “Do as I do, don’t get involved in politics.”



part 2 follows ...

[JeMeSouviens]

continues ...


But the Catalans were doing plenty of politics and in 2015 a rag-tag pro-independence coalition led by Carles Puigdemont took power by a slender margin in the Catalan parliament. Whereupon the rhetoric from both sides became more angry and the political climate more hostile.

Rajoy’s government and his supporters in the media have portrayed the mop-topped Puigdemont and his radical comrades as irresponsible and infantile but it has been hard to avoid the conclusion that, if so, the supposedly adult politicians in Madrid have descended to the same level. The education minister stoked the flames by stating the government’s intention to españolizar — Spanishify — Catalan children; the foreign minister did the same when he accused the Catalan government of “an uprising” and “a coup d’état”. Felipe González, a former socialist prime minister, trumped them both in an article in El País in which he compared the independence movement to “the German or Italian adventure” of the 1930s.

Things could have been so different, so easily, starting with the Popular Party restraining the vindictive impulse that drove it to overrule the autonomy statute through the courts. Even if it had not, the massive street protests two years later provided another opportunity. Had Rajoy possessed an ounce of statesmanship, he could have gone to Barcelona, made a conciliatory speech and offered dialogue with the less militant, more pliable Catalan government that was then in power. Applause would have rung out around the hall and the Puigdemont radicals would probably have been done for.

Had Rajoy an ounce of statesmanship, he could have gone to Barcelona in 2012, made a conciliatory speech and offered dialogue with the less militant Catalan government then in power.

The dangerous showdown today between Spanish fanatics and Catalan romantics would never have happened if, along with the change in mood music, the upshot of talks had been the granting of a binding referendum such as the one Scotland was given three years ago. Catalans say of themselves that two emotions vie in their hearts, seny and rauxa: common sense and raging passion. They are by ancient Mediterranean tradition a trading nation. When they are not angry, as they are now, they are the most practical people on earth. A proper referendum held a couple of years ago would have yielded in all likelihood a substantial “no” to independence from Spain and, as happened in Quebec, the subject would have been put to bed for a generation at least.

Instead what we have is the cruel absurdity of the Madrid government acting towards the Catalans like a husband who hates his wife and mistreats her but refuses to let her contemplate leaving him, screaming “She’s mine!”.

What happens now? Puigdemont has said he will make a unilateral declaration of independence but his delay in doing so indicates an entirely realistic fear of more violent reprisals from Madrid, hence his stated desire for EU mediation, so far refused. Such a declaration would signify scarcely more in substance than the outcome of the unilateral “referendum”: it would be more political theatre. Catalonia is not a small Pacific island, sufficient unto itself. It is part of Spain and part of the European Union. A hard, overnight Catexit is simply not possible. Puigdemont is playing a high-risk game.

The Spanish government could see he is playing a game, if it chose to, and react proportionately: watch and wait a while and, acknowledging that the Catalan independence clamour has significant numbers behind it, accede to talks. The wife, in this scenario, could respond yet to some blandishments. Rajoy could do what he should have done five years ago and agree to a binding referendum. In the event of a victory for the “yes” vote, order — at least order of the type now found in Brexit Britain — would be restored. Madrid, having given its legal blessing to the referendum, would have to abide through gritted teeth by the result. In the event of a “no” victory, the problem would be solved.

Fat chance, though, as things stand. More likely is that ominous royal defence of the “constitutional order” by “the legitimate state powers”. Luis de Guindos, the economy minister, showed just how inflexible the Spanish government remains when he said in a television interview on Thursday that Catalan independence was “out of the question” because it was, first, “illegal” and, second, “irrational”: “Catalonia has always been part of Spain”.

A part of me still clings to the sliver of hope I felt before the king’s speech, that maybe the EU will intervene and knock sense into Spanish heads. But it is more likely that they will do so only after the cracking of more Catalan bones, by which time it may be too late. One death at the hands of the king’s police, one martyr for the Catalan cause, and anything could happen. Rajoy calls Puigdemont a traitor but if the conflict descends into widespread violence, and if Catalonia does eventually achieve independence, history may record that the bigger traitor was Rajoy.

[ronaldo7]

continues ...

A cracking article, where the author has no axe to grind. El Pais will be lacking without the likes of Mr Carlin.

Alternatively, this young lass makes an impassioned plea to Europeans.

https://t.co/UBio6bloW8

[IberianHibernian]

A cracking article, where the author has no axe to grind. El Pais will be lacking without the likes of Mr Carlin.

Alternatively, this young lass makes an impassioned plea to Europeans.

https://t.co/UBio6bloW8I take it comments about young lass are tongue in cheek ? The same video ( imitation of Ukranian girl apparently ) is being shown on lots of websites but doubt anyone in Europe at least is taking it seriously . Spanish newspapers which are trying to seem neutral but will tend to not support an uprising against the national government ( can`t imagine that being any different in any country in the world ) are posting the video to ridicule the independence movement . I`m sure 90% of Catalan independence supporters would also admit it`s a total joke though it`s obviously another example of things that were prepared in advance for campaign .
As for Carlin article , it`s a very long article but doesn`t actually say very much about causes of present situation or more importantly what should be done now . It`s easy to say Spanish governments in last 20 or 30 years should have done this, that or other to prevent present situation ( Carlin seems to focus on last few years with solution being to give in to extremes - he talks of 15% a few years ago and that presumably includes democratic independence supporters - as according to him silent majority would have won votes and stabilised life in Catalonia and rest of Spain ( not sure if he mentions the rest of Spain ) .
Anyway , the situation is very worrying for all Spanish people especially for Catalans but also for people in the rest of Europe . I can`t see a peaceful ending in Catalonia and I think it`s inevitable that other large European countries in Europe like France and the UK will take note of what`s happened in Spain in the last 20 - 30 years with devolved power in areas like education and the media to limit powers to regional / national governments . Events in Catalonia will certainly have a very negative effect on hopes of Scottish independence .

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I take it comments about young lass are tongue in cheek ? The same video ( imitation of Ukranian girl apparently ) is being shown on lots of websites but doubt anyone in Europe at least is taking it seriously . Spanish newspapers which are trying to seem neutral but will tend to not support an uprising against the national government ( can`t imagine that being any different in any country in the world ) are posting the video to ridicule the independence movement . I`m sure 90% of Catalan independence supporters would also admit it`s a total joke though it`s obviously another example of things that were prepared in advance for campaign .
As for Carlin article , it`s a very long article but doesn`t actually say very much about causes of present situation or more importantly what should be done now . It`s easy to say Spanish governments in last 20 or 30 years should have done this, that or other to prevent present situation ( Carlin seems to focus on last few years with solution being to give in to extremes - he talks of 15% a few years ago and that presumably includes democratic independence supporters - as according to him silent majority would have won votes and stabilised life in Catalonia and rest of Spain ( not sure if he mentions the rest of Spain ) .
Anyway , the situation is very worrying for all Spanish people especially for Catalans but also for people in the rest of Europe . I can`t see a peaceful ending in Catalonia and I think it`s inevitable that other large European countries in Europe like France and the UK will take note of what`s happened in Spain in the last 20 - 30 years with devolved power in areas like education and the media to limit powers to regional / national governments . Events in Catalonia will certainly have a very negative effect on hopes of Scottish independence .

I find your contributions on this thread reallu useful and interesting, as being back in scotland we are obviiusly quitr removed from the actual situation, even if Barcelona amd Spain are very familiar to many of us.

I thought the Carlin stuff was useful, i especially found his points about the Spanish attitude /stubborness / obstinacy uaeful, as it does explain why the spanish govt act the way they do.

I was once at a meeting in brussels and got speakinh to a spanish lady at the same meeting, and we talked aboutt independence as it was arpund the time of the indy ref here. This was a hifhly educated woman, in a good job, but i was shocked by her '*** em' attitude to catalonia, she was very bitter and angry towards them.

Your point about the scottish indy movement is interesting. I really dont know what to make of the ramifications. On one hand, a nationalism based on language is quite ethnic in chatacter which the SNP will not want to be too closely assoxiated with. Also, Spain and the UK have a mutual interest in not making it too easy for restive regions too easy to join the EU for example.

But Scotland is different in that we have no recent history of english oppression, no recent civil wars etx, and we are not a region on England, we are part of a union which does give it a slightly different character.

I really hope it doesnt all end in violence, but given the spanish obstinancy, if i were a catalan independista, im not sure i would see much alternative and it would certainly put pressure on the EU to intercede.

[JeMeSouviens]

I take it comments about young lass are tongue in cheek ? The same video ( imitation of Ukranian girl apparently ) is being shown on lots of websites but doubt anyone in Europe at least is taking it seriously . Spanish newspapers which are trying to seem neutral but will tend to not support an uprising against the national government ( can`t imagine that being any different in any country in the world ) are posting the video to ridicule the independence movement . I`m sure 90% of Catalan independence supporters would also admit it`s a total joke though it`s obviously another example of things that were prepared in advance for campaign .
As for Carlin article , it`s a very long article but doesn`t actually say very much about causes of present situation or more importantly what should be done now . It`s easy to say Spanish governments in last 20 or 30 years should have done this, that or other to prevent present situation ( Carlin seems to focus on last few years with solution being to give in to extremes - he talks of 15% a few years ago and that presumably includes democratic independence supporters - as according to him silent majority would have won votes and stabilised life in Catalonia and rest of Spain ( not sure if he mentions the rest of Spain ) .
Anyway , the situation is very worrying for all Spanish people especially for Catalans but also for people in the rest of Europe . I can`t see a peaceful ending in Catalonia and I think it`s inevitable that other large European countries in Europe like France and the UK will take note of what`s happened in Spain in the last 20 - 30 years with devolved power in areas like education and the media to limit powers to regional / national governments . Events in Catalonia will certainly have a very negative effect on hopes of Scottish independence .

It's always good to introduce a little levity to these discussions. That's a cracker. :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

I find your contributions on this thread reallu useful and interesting, as being back in scotland we are obviiusly quitr removed from the actual situation, even if Barcelona amd Spain are very familiar to many of us.

I thought the Carlin stuff was useful, i especially found his points about the Spanish attitude /stubborness / obstinacy uaeful, as it does explain why the spanish govt act the way they do.

I was once at a meeting in brussels and got speakinh to a spanish lady at the same meeting, and we talked aboutt independence as it was arpund the time of the indy ref here. This was a hifhly educated woman, in a good job, but i was shocked by her '*** em' attitude to catalonia, she was very bitter and angry towards them.

Your point about the scottish indy movement is interesting. I really dont know what to make of the ramifications. On one hand, a nationalism based on language is quite ethnic in chatacter which the SNP will not want to be too closely assoxiated with. Also, Spain and the UK have a mutual interest in not making it too easy for restive regions too easy to join the EU for example.

But Scotland is different in that we have no recent history of english oppression, no recent civil wars etx, and we are not a region on England, we are part of a union which does give it a slightly different character.

I really hope it doesnt all end in violence, but given the spanish obstinancy, if i were a catalan independista, im not sure i would see much alternative and it would certainly put pressure on the EU to intercede.

At the risk of being told off for talking about Scotland again ... the UK establishment is nothing if not flexible and pragmatic when it comes to knowing how much ground to cede. I don't think it's an accident that, at least since the restoration (and Jacobite adventures notwithstanding), Britain largely avoided the violent revolutions seen elsewhere across Europe. Not having a written constitution and the English concept of supreme parliamentary sovereignty means they just make things up as they go along and get by on acts of parliament where necessary. I know Scottish nationalists in general like to rail on about Westminster, but the Catalan situation has driven home, to me at least, that we should thank our lucky stars we're dealing with a civilised and mature adversary.

[RyeSloan]

I find your contributions on this thread reallu useful and interesting, as being back in scotland we are obviiusly quitr removed from the actual situation, even if Barcelona amd Spain are very familiar to many of us.

I thought the Carlin stuff was useful, i especially found his points about the Spanish attitude /stubborness / obstinacy uaeful, as it does explain why the spanish govt act the way they do.

I was once at a meeting in brussels and got speakinh to a spanish lady at the same meeting, and we talked aboutt independence as it was arpund the time of the indy ref here. This was a hifhly educated woman, in a good job, but i was shocked by her '*** em' attitude to catalonia, she was very bitter and angry towards them.

Your point about the scottish indy movement is interesting. I really dont know what to make of the ramifications. On one hand, a nationalism based on language is quite ethnic in chatacter which the SNP will not want to be too closely assoxiated with. Also, Spain and the UK have a mutual interest in not making it too easy for restive regions too easy to join the EU for example.

But Scotland is different in that we have no recent history of english oppression, no recent civil wars etx, and we are not a region on England, we are part of a union which does give it a slightly different character.

I really hope it doesnt all end in violence, but given the spanish obstinancy, if i were a catalan independista, im not sure i would see much alternative and it would certainly put pressure on the EU to intercede.

The EU will stand behind Spain long and hard on this one...just like it's kept the people of Greece in a decade of severe austerity. Anything but the cuddly 'for the people' institution that it is painted by some in the UK

[JeMeSouviens]

The EU will stand behind Spain long and hard on this one...just like it's kept the people of Greece in a decade of severe austerity. Anything but the cuddly 'for the people' institution that it is painted by some in the UK

That's a tricky one to judge. In the short term, for sure, but longer term who knows? They initially stood behind Yugoslavia but caved to recognising Slovenia and Croatia fairly quickly. Kosovo has had a harder road and is probably a closer example given it's status within Serbia and Serbia being a democracy. Kosovo is officially recognised by 23/28 EU states and is officially a "potential candidate" for accession.

Then again, Spain is an EU member and Serbia isn't, which will probably harden EU attitudes.

I think in the end it comes down to the Catalans themselves. If support for independence is sustained they will probably get there, if it wilts they won't.

[RyeSloan]

That's a tricky one to judge. In the short term, for sure, but longer term who knows? They initially stood behind Yugoslavia but caved to recognising Slovenia and Croatia fairly quickly. Kosovo has had a harder road and is probably a closer example given it's status within Serbia and Serbia being a democracy. Kosovo is officially recognised by 23/28 EU states and is officially a "potential candidate" for accession.

Then again, Spain is an EU member and Serbia isn't, which will probably harden EU attitudes.

I think in the end it comes down to the Catalans themselves. If support for independence is sustained they will probably get there, if it wilts they won't.

Yeah I suppose each situation is different and I'm tempted to think that their attitude will very much depend if a country is a member or not.

As for your last paragraph, I agree completely and maybe that's the point, they can whistle for any support from the EU in advancing their cause.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The EU will stand behind Spain long and hard on this one...just like it's kept the people of Greece in a decade of severe austerity. Anything but the cuddly 'for the people' institution that it is painted by some in the UK

I get that and agree, but it would be hard for them to do so if violence was erupting on the streets.

It would furthet reinforce the perception of the EU as 'economic giant, political pygmy'

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

At the risk of being told off for talking about Scotland again ... the UK establishment is nothing if not flexible and pragmatic when it comes to knowing how much ground to cede. I don't think it's an accident that, at least since the restoration (and Jacobite adventures notwithstanding), Britain largely avoided the violent revolutions seen elsewhere across Europe. Not having a written constitution and the English concept of supreme parliamentary sovereignty means they just make things up as they go along and get by on acts of parliament where necessary. I know Scottish nationalists in general like to rail on about Westminster, but the Catalan situation has driven home, to me at least, that we should thank our lucky stars we're dealing with a civilised and mature adversary.

Yeah thats a good point. And maybe reflects the fact the success Scots have had within the union historically.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's a tricky one to judge. In the short term, for sure, but longer term who knows? They initially stood behind Yugoslavia but caved to recognising Slovenia and Croatia fairly quickly. Kosovo has had a harder road and is probably a closer example given it's status within Serbia and Serbia being a democracy. Kosovo is officially recognised by 23/28 EU states and is officially a "potential candidate" for accession.

Then again, Spain is an EU member and Serbia isn't, which will probably harden EU attitudes.

I think in the end it comes down to the Catalans themselves. If support for independence is sustained they will probably get there, if it wilts they won't.

Also Kosovo is very muddy - it was afaik always part of serbia, and was supplanted by settlers, possibly more like NI. I dont think it was ever its own country, kingdom etc

Ir was also the site of one of the serbs most historic battles against the ottomans, and so it is easy to ser why they are a bit sensitive over it.

[JeMeSouviens]

A cracking article, where the author has no axe to grind. El Pais will be lacking without the likes of Mr Carlin.

Alternatively, this young lass makes an impassioned plea to Europeans.

https://t.co/UBio6bloW8

Spain responds ... :wink:

https://twitter.com/poloniatv3/status/921109877879136256

[IberianHibernian]

At the risk of being told off for talking about Scotland again ... the UK establishment is nothing if not flexible and pragmatic when it comes to knowing how much ground to cede. I don't think it's an accident that, at least since the restoration (and Jacobite adventures notwithstanding), Britain largely avoided the violent revolutions seen elsewhere across Europe. Not having a written constitution and the English concept of supreme parliamentary sovereignty means they just make things up as they go along and get by on acts of parliament where necessary. I know Scottish nationalists in general like to rail on about Westminster, but the Catalan situation has driven home, to me at least, that we should thank our lucky stars we're dealing with a civilised and mature adversary.I agree with you here and of course the fact that 2014 referendum even took place is often given as an example of how tolerant and democratic Britain is compared with other European countries ( independence referendums blocked in Spain and independence parties banned from general elections in France , Germany and Portugal for example ) but we`ll never know what would have happened if Yes vote had won ? Suggesting Spain is not a " civilised democracy " is I think unfair and inaccurate but seeing stuff in foreign press now and a long time ago it does not surprise me .

[RyeSloan]

Now there's a shock....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41683390

[ronaldo7]

I take it comments about young lass are tongue in cheek ? The same video ( imitation of Ukranian girl apparently ) is being shown on lots of websites but doubt anyone in Europe at least is taking it seriously . Spanish newspapers which are trying to seem neutral but will tend to not support an uprising against the national government ( can`t imagine that being any different in any country in the world ) are posting the video to ridicule the independence movement . I`m sure 90% of Catalan independence supporters would also admit it`s a total joke though it`s obviously another example of things that were prepared in advance for campaign .
As for Carlin article , it`s a very long article but doesn`t actually say very much about causes of present situation or more importantly what should be done now . It`s easy to say Spanish governments in last 20 or 30 years should have done this, that or other to prevent present situation ( Carlin seems to focus on last few years with solution being to give in to extremes - he talks of 15% a few years ago and that presumably includes democratic independence supporters - as according to him silent majority would have won votes and stabilised life in Catalonia and rest of Spain ( not sure if he mentions the rest of Spain ) .
Anyway , the situation is very worrying for all Spanish people especially for Catalans but also for people in the rest of Europe . I can`t see a peaceful ending in Catalonia and I think it`s inevitable that other large European countries in Europe like France and the UK will take note of what`s happened in Spain in the last 20 - 30 years with devolved power in areas like education and the media to limit powers to regional / national governments . Events in Catalonia will certainly have a very negative effect on hopes of Scottish independence .

The vid of the young lass could have been taken from hundreds doing the rounds, by the Catalan people.

I'm interested about where you're getting your figures from, where your sure that 90% of Catalan Independence supporters admit that those types of videos, where people are posting in support of Independence are a joke?

It looks like the Spanish government is coming down with the heavy hand again, and article 155, instead of dialogue.

Civil, and democratic indeed.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Spanish government has announced its intention to start the article 155 process tomorrow (allows basically a free hand to suspend the Catalan Generalitat's autonomous powers).

Reports in the Catalan press (elnacional.cat) that they intend to take direct control of the Catalan police (Mossos) and TV3, the Catalan language tv channel.

[IberianHibernian]

The vid of the young lass could have been taken from hundreds doing the rounds, by the Catalan people.

I'm interested about where you're getting your figures from, where your sure that 90% of Catalan Independence supporters admit that those types of videos, where people are posting in support of Independence are a joke?

It looks like the Spanish government is coming down with the heavy hand again, and article 155, instead of dialogue.

Civil, and democratic indeed.Some of the images on the video were filmed in Galicia . I was referring to one video . All I said was that the video is clearly designed for foreign consumption since even the most fanatical Catalan independence supporter would admit video in no way reflects Catalan or Spanish society in general . The fact we`re talking about it shows that effort that went into its production was worthwhile . And the title Help Catalonia means to 100% of Catalans I suppose ? As for article 155 , it will be voted in Spanish parliament after a debate and at present is supported as a last resort ( hopefully something will happen before vote to prevent it ) by 3 of the 4 big national parties ( the leader of the other party is against 155 but is strongly against independence ) so not just the government . Interestingly Rajoy commented that he gets the impression that some of the independence movement are probably happier about 155 than any of those in national parties which have suggested it as a last resort . Noone really knows what 155 could mean but I suspect it could lead to even more misleading propoganda . Very complicated situation with decent independence people gone too far ( and I think they know it ) and receiving too much pressure from splinter groups who back them , to step back and central government too slow with earlier action so forced to do something to bring life in Catalonia back to normality ( Catalan parliament closed by Puigdemont etc in last 10 days for example so no debates in that time ) and reduce economic effects of recent events . Can`t see a good ending for anyone in Catalonia - political commentator on a national channel today commented that situation was bleak and that whatever happens there`ll be no winners only losers and sadly I think he`s right .

[IberianHibernian]

The Spanish government has announced its intention to start the article 155 process tomorrow (allows basically a free hand to suspend the Catalan Generalitat's autonomous powers).

Reports in the Catalan press (elnacional.cat) that they intend to take direct control of the Catalan police (Mossos) and TV3, the Catalan language tv channel.155 still has to be approved by Spanish parliament after a debate . Supported as a last resort by 3 of the 4 main national parties , the 4th large party Podemos are against 155 but against independence . Other sources suggest TV3 will not be affected , the same for Catalan police . Will have to start reading elnacional.cat - does it express views for all Catalans or only those that support independence ?

[JeMeSouviens]

155 still has to be approved by Spanish parliament after a debate . Supported as a last resort by 3 of the 4 main national parties , the 4th large party Podemos are against 155 but against independence . Other sources suggest TV3 will not be affected , the same for Catalan police . Will have to start reading elnacional.cat - does it express views for all Catalans or only those that support independence ?

It’s pro-independence. Vanguardia is a more neutral source but no English translations. Here’s the same story there:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171021/432212695318/articulo-155-hacienda-mossos-informatica-medios-publicos.html

[IberianHibernian]

It’s pro-independence. Vanguardia is a more neutral source but no English translations. Here’s the same story there:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171021/432212695318/articulo-155-hacienda-mossos-informatica-medios-publicos.htmlThanks . I`ve been reading national papers El Pais ( generally supportive of the socialists ) , El Mundo ( more to centre ) and even ABC ( historically to the right ) plus papers published in the south of Spain . On this issue , left / right makes no difference . I know Spanish so prefer to read the original versions and have seen a few howlers in translated articles in the last few days . What I`ve been reading tends to reflect opinions of Spaniards who are not Catalans - importance of respecting Spanish constitution and recently voted Catalan statute and laws in general - and there`s certainly no triumphalism about probable ( and I still think it could be avoided ) activation of article 155 from Spanish press or public . I`ve lived in Spain ( never Catalonia ) for many years ( I followed our 1991 League Cup win on crackly BBC World Service radio news reports as there was an English game on preventing commentary from Hampden ) and though I`ve often not understood lack of independence demands from some regions I respect the people of left / right / centre , often victims or children / grandchildren of victims of Franco regime who have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern , democratic country which respects differences between regions / nations . The probable activation of article 155 is recognised as a sign of one failure of the plan which gives regions /nations a lot of autonomy and will hopefully lead to changes in the future which will be fair for ALL Catalans including the millions who don`t support independence and all other Spaniards . This may be difficult to understand for foreign observers especially in the case of Scottish nationalists ( notice difference between nationalists ( in Scotland usually understood to mean supporters of independence too ) and independence supporters in Catalonia as for many years after the transition Catalonia was controlled by Catalanistas who worked hard to get extra benefits for Catalonia but did not support full independence ) . Noone knows what is going to happen in Catalonia and the rest of Spain in the next few days / weeks /months and Ii don`t think anyone is optimistic - devoted independence supporters will either not get their dream or only see it but with a poorer , even more divided Catalonia and Catalans who want to remain part of Spain will either be forced to leave Catalonia or live even more intimidated than now . Sadly many Catalan families will continue divided .

[JeMeSouviens]

Thanks . I`ve been reading national papers El Pais ( generally supportive of the socialists ) , El Mundo ( more to centre ) and even ABC ( historically to the right ) plus papers published in the south of Spain . On this issue , left / right makes no difference . I know Spanish so prefer to read the original versions and have seen a few howlers in translated articles in the last few days . What I`ve been reading tends to reflect opinions of Spaniards who are not Catalans - importance of respecting Spanish constitution and recently voted Catalan statute and laws in general - and there`s certainly no triumphalism about probable ( and I still think it could be avoided ) activation of article 155 from Spanish press or public . I`ve lived in Spain ( never Catalonia ) for many years ( I followed our 1991 League Cup win on crackly BBC World Service radio news reports as there was an English game on preventing commentary from Hampden ) and though I`ve often not understood lack of independence demands from some regions I respect the people of left / right / centre , often victims or children / grandchildren of victims of Franco regime who have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern , democratic country which respects differences between regions / nations . The probable activation of article 155 is recognised as a sign of one failure of the plan which gives regions /nations a lot of autonomy and will hopefully lead to changes in the future which will be fair for ALL Catalans including the millions who don`t support independence and all other Spaniards . This may be difficult to understand for foreign observers especially in the case of Scottish nationalists ( notice difference between nationalists ( in Scotland usually understood to mean supporters of independence too ) and independence supporters in Catalonia as for many years after the transition Catalonia was controlled by Catalanistas who worked hard to get extra benefits for Catalonia but did not support full independence ) . Noone knows what is going to happen in Catalonia and the rest of Spain in the next few days / weeks /months and Ii don`t think anyone is optimistic - devoted independence supporters will either not get their dream or only see it but with a poorer , even more divided Catalonia and Catalans who want to remain part of Spain will either be forced to leave Catalonia or live even more intimidated than now . Sadly many Catalan families will continue divided .

Be interested to see what you think of this (very long) twitter thread by an ex-pat English guy in Spain:

https://twitter.com/ejhchess/status/920250769475096576

From my interested outsider view, he seems to hit a lot of nails on heads.

[ronaldo7]

Interesting piece in Left foot forward on Catalonia.

http://leftfootforward.org/2017/10/the-spanish-socialist-party-play-a-key-role-in-blocking-catalonian-independence-heres-how/

[IberianHibernian]

Be interested to see what you think of this (very long) twitter thread by an ex-pat English guy in Spain:

https://twitter.com/ejhchess/status/920250769475096576

From my interested outsider view, he seems to hit a lot of nails on heads. I agree with almost all of it and I think most people all over Spain would too . From what I`ve read and heard in the last 20 odd years I disagree strongly with number 4 - I think many ( possibly a majority ) of Catalans including some in favour of independence think that public - funded Catalan TV channel and radio station have been far from impartial and that school system has played a major part in creating divisions in Catalonia . This has probably helped independence movement grow but has also angered the many Catalans who are very comfortable being Spanish and Catalan ( or who have no interest in politics but do want to live in a prosperous place where their children can grow up without being surrounded by intolerance and bitterness ) and who understandably feel angry about how their schools , media and other public services are being controlled at great expense by a relaatively small number of people . As for comments about " racist " PP mayor , I have seen reports about him and his opinions on immigration in his town on the national news and obviously found some of his opinions offensive but ironically he`ll be used to being the victim of abuse from other Catalans for not hiding his Spanishness . In case of Albert Rivera , I may not share his political views but think that one of the many mistakes that independence campaign has made has been to marginalise Catalans like Rivera ( closing down Catalan parliament in last week for example , thus denying opposition , albeit a minority one , the chance to ask questions ) who don`t support independence .

[IberianHibernian]

Interesting piece in Left foot forward on Catalonia.

http://leftfootforward.org/2017/10/the-spanish-socialist-party-play-a-key-role-in-blocking-catalonian-independence-heres-how/Don`t know anything about the author of this article except what I`ve seen here but I find it very hard to believe she`s been living in Catalonia for 9 years and claims to be a journalist . What`s happened in the last few weeks would have been exactly the same with a socialist government in Madrid - this is nothing to do with left / right . Catalan nationalism , unlike in the Basque Country , has been a largely right wing movement ( Puigdemont`s party comes from well - established right wing Catalanist ( for Catalan interests but not in favour of independence till a few years ago ) party . The whole article is full of things which show little knowledge of Spanish politics and life . I take it she supports independence movements all over Europe . If so , I hope she steers clear of Scotland cause she`s going to cost us votes .

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2017/oct/27/beyond-catalonia-pro-independence-movements-in-europe-map

I found this really interesting. Some of these areas seeking more autonomy I'd never even heard about... Moravia?

[Smartie]

I really don't like the noises coming out of Spain at the moment.

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of both "sides", the confrontational dialogue makes it sound like the start of something nasty, like the start of another civil war.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2017/oct/27/beyond-catalonia-pro-independence-movements-in-europe-map

I found this really interesting. Some of these areas seeking more autonomy I'd never even heard about... Moravia?

They've hop-ped on the bandwagon. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

There has been a load of frantic behind the scenes but sometimes leaking into public activity the last few days.

On the Catalan side, there were various proponents of calling elections to avoid imposition of article 155 or a UDI. Puigdemont seemed to be going for the former but it seems that back channels to Madrid (via the Socialists) indicated Rajoy's PP would press ahead with 155 anyway and is determined to get rid of (and probably jail) the leaders of the current PdeCat/ERC coalition.

So it appears Catalonia will declare independence today and Spain will go full steam ahead with 155. How that will pan out, is anybody's guess and somewhat worrying to say the least. :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

Catalan parliament is voting on independence now - pro-Spain unity parties have left the chamber.

[JeMeSouviens]

Catalonia declares independence:


El Parlament aprova la República amb 70 vots favorables, 10 'no' i 2 en blanc

[ronaldo7]

Catalonia declares independence:

For how long though...The Madrid masses will be mobilising their troops.

[IGRIGI]

Spanish government has "activated direct rule", where's Michael Buffer when you need him?

[The Harp Awakes]

For how long though...The Madrid masses will be mobilising their troops.

Probably a matter of hours, but i don't think the Catalans had much choice though as Spain was going to bin the parliament anyway.

[JeMeSouviens]

Use of article 155 to suspend Catalan autonomy approved in the Spanish senate.

So Catalonia is under direct rule from Madrid and also an independent republic. :worried:

[Hibernia&Alba]

The romantic in me opens the history books and remembers the Catalan anarchist experiment of 1936-39; just about the only bone fide attempt at an anarchist society there has ever been. Crushed by Franco and his fascist allies after the Civil War, but also attacked by the Soviet backed Communist Party of Spain during it.

Long live the CNT and the POUM :flag::flag::flag:

[hibsbollah]

The romantic in me opens the history books and remembers the Catalan anarchist experiment of 1936-39; just about the only bone fide attempt at an anarchist society there has ever been. Crushed by Franco and his fascist allies after the Civil War, but also attacked by the Soviet backed Communist Party of Spain during it.

Long live the CNT and the POUM :flag::flag::flag:

Homage to Catalonia will tell you all you need to know about those two organisations. Shambolic and internecine squabbling allowed Franco thirty years, sadly.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Homage to Catalonia will tell you all you need to know about those two organisations. Shambolic and internecine squabbling allowed Franco thirty years, sadly.

That's often the story of the left, sadly, and it was surely inevitable that, in an anarchist society which tried to abolish hierarchy and central control, there was a trade off in terms of discipline and organisation. There's no getting around that, but it was a noble effort to find a path which rejected fascism, soviet communism and capitalism - a unique experiment in socialist libertarianism.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's often the story of the left, sadly, and it was surely inevitable that, in an anarchist society which tried to abolish hierarchy and central control, there was a trade off in terms of discipline and organisation. There's no getting around that, but it was a noble effort to find a path which rejected fascism, soviet communism and capitalism - a unique experiment in socialist libertarianism.

Yeah, just that probably during a civil war wasn't the best time for experimentation.

[hibsbollah]

That's often the story of the left, sadly, and it was surely inevitable that, in an anarchist society which tried to abolish hierarchy and central control, there was a trade off in terms of discipline and organisation. There's no getting around that, but it was a noble effort to find a path which rejected fascism, soviet communism and capitalism - a unique experiment in socialist libertarianism.

Interesting question, whether holding an ethos of deconstruction of hierarchies automatically results in a political organisation being unable to impose hierarchy and discipline upon itself?

I'd say there's no reason why this should be necessarily true. Although we're getting off topic and dangerously close to an undergrad dissertation :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yeah, just that probably during a civil war wasn't the best time for experimentation.

Well it was all part of the same thing. The Spanish Civil War was very complex, with so many groups coming together in a common cause and then splitting off again. The Catalan anarchist groups did fight on the Republican side, but there were major splits within those groups, as hibsbollah said, and between them and other Republican forces e.g. the PCS. It's wasn't two unified sides facing off, particularly on the Republican side.

[JeMeSouviens]

Well it was all part of the same thing. The Spanish Civil War was very complex, with so many groups coming together in a common cause and then splitting off again. The Catalan anarchist groups did fight on the Republican side, but there were major splits within those groups, as hibsbollah said, and between them and other Republican forces e.g. the PCS. It's wasn't two unified sides facing off, particularly on the Republican side.

Yeah, I get that, just saying it might be easier to try and abolish hierarchy and central control while not being involved in bloody warfare.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yeah, I get that, just saying it might be easier to try and abolish hierarchy and central control while not being involved in bloody warfare.

You're likely right there. Hibsbollah ain't so sure :greengrin

The Catalan anarchist experiment had to deal with enemies on the left as well as the fascists. Stalin, who was arming some Republican factions, hated the idea of anarchism every bit as much as Franco, Hitler and Mussolini.

[Hibrandenburg]

UK will not recognise an independent Catalonia.

[Hibernia&Alba]

UK will not recognise an independent Catalonia.

Aye, that'll make them change their minds........

[stoneyburn hibs]

Go Catalonia! I say that with a wee bit jealousy. I'd take Independence that way, wrongly or rightly.

[Hibrandenburg]

Go Catalonia! I say that with a wee bit jealousy. I'd take Independence that way, wrongly or rightly.

Wait and see how this develops, this can't end well.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Wait and see how this develops, this can't end well.

I'm fully aware of the implications, still take it though.

[IGRIGI]

I'm fully aware of the implications, still take it though.

Steady...still not sure if they will be able to watch Eastenders and Strictly so let's not get ahead of ourselves yet.

😁

[Hibs Class]

Go Catalonia! I say that with a wee bit jealousy. I'd take Independence that way, wrongly or rightly.

Wrongly. Maybe they should be entitled to a referendum, but right now there's no way they can claim to have a legitimate mandate. Supporting independence that way is to turn your back on democracy.

Separately, the sottish government's need to issue a supportive statement tonight is as pathetic as it is predictable.

[Smartie]

Wait and see how this develops, this can't end well.

"Decades of bloody civil war" can't end well or "can't use the pound" can't end well?

[ronaldo7]

Wrongly. Maybe they should be entitled to a referendum, but right now there's no way they can claim to have a legitimate mandate. Supporting independence that way is to turn your back on democracy.

Separately, the sottish government's need to issue a supportive statement tonight is as pathetic as it is predictable.

What's wrong with it?

https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia-1

And why did the Government in Madrid not accede to a referendum for Catalonia?

[Hibs Class]

What's wrong with it?

https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia-1

And why did the Government in Madrid not accede to a referendum for Catalonia?

To your first question, my comment was to why they felt the need to issue a statement in the first place. They have no status 're foreign policy so it feels like nothing more than gesture politics. To your second question, I already said there may well be a decent case for a referendum, but right now there is no justification for a declaration of independence.

[ronaldo7]

To your first question, my comment was to why they felt the need to issue a statement in the first place. They have no status 're foreign policy so it feels like nothing more than gesture politics. To your second question, I already said there may well be a decent case for a referendum, but right now there is no justification for a declaration of independence.

Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on.

The Scottish Government seem to have a different opinion to the UK gov, and are getting out there, and saying so. Nothing wrong with that imo. Good on them.

If only the Madrid government had decided to talk rather than block, we wouldn't be here.

[Hibernia&Alba]

To your first question, my comment was to why they felt the need to issue a statement in the first place. They have no status 're foreign policy so it feels like nothing more than gesture politics. To your second question, I already said there may well be a decent case for a referendum, but right now there is no justification for a declaration of independence.

I don't think that's the case, HC. The Catalan government declared its intention to hold a referendum on Catalan independence. The central government sabotaged the vote and then refused to accept the result. As the elected Catalan government is being denied a democratic referendum in its own region, what should it do?

[GreenLake]

To your first question, my comment was to why they felt the need to issue a statement in the first place. They have no status 're foreign policy so it feels like nothing more than gesture politics. To your second question, I already said there may well be a decent case for a referendum, but right now there is no justification for a declaration of independence.

When it is achieved it becomes justified.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Wrongly. Maybe they should be entitled to a referendum, but right now there's no way they can claim to have a legitimate mandate. Supporting independence that way is to turn your back on democracy.

Separately, the sottish government's need to issue a supportive statement tonight is as pathetic as it is predictable.

Bolt

[Hibrandenburg]

"Decades of bloody civil war" can't end well or "can't use the pound" can't end well?

I don't think decades of civil war is likely because the Spanish military would wipe the floor with Catalonia within days if not hours. I meant it won't end well in a Tiananmen Square type of way with an added Basque Separatist type legacy.

[greenlex]

Wrongly. Maybe they should be entitled to a referendum, but right now there's no way they can claim to have a legitimate mandate. Supporting independence that way is to turn your back on democracy.

Separately, the sottish government's need to issue a supportive statement tonight is as pathetic as it is predictable.
Aye. That there Scottish Government should get right back in its box. What was it thinking about?:rolleyes:

[Bristolhibby]

To your first question, my comment was to why they felt the need to issue a statement in the first place. They have no status 're foreign policy so it feels like nothing more than gesture politics. To your second question, I already said there may well be a decent case for a referendum, but right now there is no justification for a declaration of independence.

Gestures are entirely appropriate in politics (and when I say politics it’s actually real peoples lives).

I have universal support for self determination.

J

[danhibees1875]

What's wrong with it?

https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia-1

And why did the Government in Madrid not accede to a referendum for Catalonia?

Thanks for posting that link. I wouldn't even call that a "supportive" statement, certainly not of UDI. It would appear to be a concise and fair statement calling for dialogue and democracy.

Compared to other parliament's whose response seem to be "we don't recognise this" statement which does nothing but stoke resentment and goes nowhere to solving issues.

I don't think declaring independence was the right thing to do, but it's a shame they weren't given the opportunity to have a vote and see what people want.

[IberianHibernian]

What's wrong with it?

https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia-1

And why did the Government in Madrid not accede to a referendum for Catalonia?
Not sure of procedures in Scottish parliament but are statements like this voted on before they are released ? There`s nothing controversial anyway but wondered if statement had been supported by all MSPs or just the SNP and Greens . It`s obvious there`s a huge difference between how things happen at Holyrood and how the Catalan parliament has operated in recent years . Even with an SNP majority I don`t think many non nationalists would accuse the SNP of abusing their power or ignoring or worse non independence supporters while in Catalonia power has been used to gain massive influence in education , media , culture , public services .....leaving non independence supporters as second class citizens in their own country . Noone wants article 155 except perhaps a tiny % on the far right and some supporters of independence who`ll see new propoganda opportunities but it might end up being beneficial for all of Catalonia if it leads to less politicised institutions and starts a slow process of harmonisation within the community and reduces the economic damage caused by exodus of companies .
As for referndum , think that would mean a change in the constitution being approved by all of Spain . Sounds like there will be some changes next year possibly allowing a federal system though I`m not sure how much that would affect Catalonia which already has ( now had ) a lot of autonomy . The Spanish constitution is based on the German one . In Germany , France and Portugal independence parties aren`t even allowed to stand in general elections , something often forgotten when people attack Spain .

[Betty Boop]

I'm fully aware of the implications, still take it though.
Thank goodness the majority of the population don't agree with your view.

[JeMeSouviens]

Not sure of procedures in Scottish parliament but are statements like this voted on before they are released ? There`s nothing controversial anyway but wondered if statement had been supported by all MSPs or just the SNP and Greens . It`s obvious there`s a huge difference between how things happen at Holyrood and how the Catalan parliament has operated in recent years . Even with an SNP majority I don`t think many non nationalists would accuse the SNP of abusing their power or ignoring or worse non independence supporters while in Catalonia power has been used to gain massive influence in education , media , culture , public services .....leaving non independence supporters as second class citizens in their own country . Noone wants article 155 except perhaps a tiny % on the far right and some supporters of independence who`ll see new propoganda opportunities but it might end up being beneficial for all of Catalonia if it leads to less politicised institutions and starts a slow process of harmonisation within the community and reduces the economic damage caused by exodus of companies .
As for referndum , think that would mean a change in the constitution being approved by all of Spain . Sounds like there will be some changes next year possibly allowing a federal system though I`m not sure how much that would affect Catalonia which already has ( now had ) a lot of autonomy . The Spanish constitution is based on the German one . In Germany , France and Portugal independence parties aren`t even allowed to stand in general elections , something often forgotten when people attack Spain .

This statement is on behalf of the Scottish Government, not the parliament. They’ve not debated or voted on it.

The SNP are pretty routinely accused of all those things btw.

[JeMeSouviens]

Thank goodness the majority of the population don't agree with your view.

If the majority of the population agreed with him, we wouldn’t need a udi.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thank goodness the majority of the population don't agree with your view.

Unfortunately a small minority can cause a lot of grief for the majority. See Northern Ireland.

[Jim44]

What are the implications for Barcelona FC.? Would they get kicked out of the Spanish league.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Unfortunately a small minority can cause a lot of grief for the majority. See Northern Ireland.

Not in any way did I suggest or even advocate it would be ok to achieve Independence through violence etc...
Have a word.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not in any way did I suggest or even advocate it would be ok to achieve Independence through violence etc...
Have a word.

Not in any way did I suggest that you would advocate it would be ok to achieve Independence through violence etc...
Have a word yourself.

[IberianHibernian]

Go Catalonia! I say that with a wee bit jealousy. I'd take Independence that way, wrongly or rightly.I know what you`re meaning and I understand it but it`s far too soon to say that the ends justifies the means approach of Catalan independence movement was really the best way to go about it . There were thousands of people celebrating the proclamation of independence yesterday ( many of them schoolkids celebrating the second day of " Anti Francoist oppression " strikes and days off school and tourists but that`s another argument ) but not many of the main independence politicians were really celebrating perhaps because they know that instead of being remembered as Catalan heroes and freedom fighters they`ll be remembered as people who split Catalonia or put back independence for another 20 years ) . Present Catalan independence group is a strange mix of parties and pressure groups . A mixture of right wing Catalanists ( main group who traditionally support more power and money for Catalonia but not complete independence ) , Republican ER and an anti everything (EU , Spain , capitalism ,... ) group CUP being main groups in coalition . It`s only a couple of years since one group was encouraging attacks on leaders of others outside Catalan parliament during demonstrations ( court cases are still pending or were till October 1st referendum was planned - yet another example of how undemocratic a state / region Catalonia has become with leadership who encouraged recent events ) . Flagwaving teenagers and tourists don`t care or know about who`s promoting Catalan independence and consequences of trying to achieve it by present method but people who live and work there obviously do . I don`t know what will happen in Catalonia and the rest of Spain in the next few days / weeks / months but I don`t think Scottish nationalism should look at Catalonia as an example of how to achieve independence since there are so many differences between the cases .
Just reread this . No way am I criticising decent supporters of independence for Catalonia and that is the majority of them who also accept that there are millions of Catalans who feel Catalan and Spanish or feel that for social or economic reasons Catalonia should continue as an autonomous region / nation of Spain and the EU .

[stoneyburn hibs]

Not in any way did I suggest that you would advocate it would be ok to achieve Independence through violence etc...
Have a word yourself.

Fair do's , I thought that you were insinuating that.
Please accept my apologies.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I know what you`re meaning and I understand it but it`s far too soon to say that the ends justifies the means approach of Catalan independence movement was really the best way to go about it . There were thousands of people celebrating the proclamation of independence yesterday ( many of them schoolkids celebrating the second day of " Anti Francoist oppression " strikes and days off school and tourists but that`s another argument ) but not many of the main independence politicians were really celebrating perhaps because they know that instead of being remembered as Catalan heroes and freedom fighters they`ll be remembered as people who split Catalonia or put back independence for another 20 years ) . Present Catalan independence group is a strange mix of parties and pressure groups . A mixture of right wing Catalanists ( main group who traditionally support more power and money for Catalonia but not complete independence ) , Republican ER and an anti everything (EU , Spain , capitalism ,... ) group CUP being main groups in coalition . It`s only a couple of years since one group was encouraging attacks on leaders of others outside Catalan parliament during demonstrations ( court cases are still pending or were till October 1st referendum was planned - yet another example of how undemocratic a state / region Catalonia has become with leadership who encouraged recent events ) . Flagwaving teenagers and tourists don`t care or know about who`s promoting Catalan independence and consequences of trying to achieve it by present method but people who live and work there obviously do . I don`t know what will happen in Catalonia and the rest of Spain in the next few days / weeks / months but I don`t think Scottish nationalism should look at Catalonia as an example of how to achieve independence since there are so many differences between the cases .
Just reread this . No way am I criticising decent supporters of independence for Catalonia and that is the majority of them who also accept that there are millions of Catalans who feel Catalan and Spanish or feel that for social or economic reasons Catalonia should continue as an autonomous region / nation of Spain and the EU .

I get it mate, and my post probably came across as flippant/reactionary to most reading it. I did mean it sincerely though and I have been following (with great intrigue) the Catalonian issue.
Whilst I don't agree with everything you have said, I do find your input insightful, keep it up please.

[Hibrandenburg]

Fair do's , I thought that you were insinuating that.
Please accept my apologies.

Nae bother, no offence meant and none taken.

[ronaldo7]

Not sure of procedures in Scottish parliament but are statements like this voted on before they are released ? There`s nothing controversial anyway but wondered if statement had been supported by all MSPs or just the SNP and Greens . It`s obvious there`s a huge difference between how things happen at Holyrood and how the Catalan parliament has operated in recent years . Even with an SNP majority I don`t think many non nationalists would accuse the SNP of abusing their power or ignoring or worse non independence supporters while in Catalonia power has been used to gain massive influence in education , media , culture , public services .....leaving non independence supporters as second class citizens in their own country . Noone wants article 155 except perhaps a tiny % on the far right and some supporters of independence who`ll see new propoganda opportunities but it might end up being beneficial for all of Catalonia if it leads to less politicised institutions and starts a slow process of harmonisation within the community and reduces the economic damage caused by exodus of companies .
As for referndum , think that would mean a change in the constitution being approved by all of Spain . Sounds like there will be some changes next year possibly allowing a federal system though I`m not sure how much that would affect Catalonia which already has ( now had ) a lot of autonomy . The Spanish constitution is based on the German one . In Germany , France and Portugal independence parties aren`t even allowed to stand in general elections , something often forgotten when people attack Spain .


This statement is on behalf of the Scottish Government, not the parliament. They’ve not debated or voted on it.

The SNP are pretty routinely accused of all those things btw.

Sorry for not answering your question, I was out celebrating last night.:wink:

I see that JMS has answered your question re the statement being from the Scottish Government rather than the parliament, just like the Uk government one is from the gov of the day, and not the parliament.

I get your point on the Media bias though, as we have BBC Scotland to deal with.:greengrin

[PeeJay]

In Germany , France and Portugal independence parties aren`t even allowed to stand in general elections , something often forgotten when people attack Spain .

You're wrong about the case in Germany - the Bayernpartei stood in the last general election here ... they would like independence for Bavaria ...:crazy:

[Hibrandenburg]

You're wrong about the case in Germany - the Bayernpartei stood in the last general election here ... they would like independence for Bavaria ...:crazy:

Think the rest of Germany would like independence for Bavaria:wink:

[ronaldo7]

This on the BBC too. :rolleyes: The year 2015

https://t.co/46gn6AKVYs

Let's hope none of this lot chuck an egg, you never know what the MSM will do.

19597

[IberianHibernian]

This on the BBC too. :rolleyes: The year 2015

https://t.co/46gn6AKVYs

Let's hope none of this lot chuck an egg, you never know what the MSM will do.

19597 I`ve read some of Paul Preston`s books and they`re interesting but , in general , I think he and the other English Hispanists who like to comment on how the Spanish live from their university offices in England are way out of touch with reality . Franco died in 1975 , things had started to change well before then and the transition to democracy in the 70s and 80s has been admired by observers from all over the world . Regions like Catalonia had a lot of autonomy well before the end of the 20th century . Millions of Spaniards of all political colours and none have worked hard to make it a modern , tolerant , plurinational country . Many of these people were imprisoned or forced to leave Spain during the dictatorship but have worked hard to build a better country . They have succeeded which is why recent events in Catalonia have caused more sadness than anger - some Catalans don`t want to continue being Spanish , some do , I`m not sure which is the majority but I`m sure the majority want to live in peace with their children educated in non politicised schools and with neutral media - in the BBC article you attach , Preston mentions Franco`s influence in Spanish schools and press censorship . Sadly , many Catalans feel that the recent Catalan governments have also had too much influence in education and in the media and have actively tried to divide the Catalan community . Would be refreshing to see some analysis of Catalan situation which doesn`t always refer to Franco and at least mentions how abandoned and intimidated many Catalans who also feel Spanish or who have no interest in politics feel .
As for images of hooligans goading the police absolutely disgusting but fortunately only a tiny group in Spanish society .

[ronaldo7]

I`ve read some of Paul Preston`s books and they`re interesting but , in general , I think he and the other English Hispanists who like to comment on how the Spanish live from their university offices in England are way out of touch with reality . Franco died in 1975 , things had started to change well before then and the transition to democracy in the 70s and 80s has been admired by observers from all over the world . Regions like Catalonia had a lot of autonomy well before the end of the 20th century . Millions of Spaniards of all political colours and none have worked hard to make it a modern , tolerant , plurinational country . Many of these people were imprisoned or forced to leave Spain during the dictatorship but have worked hard to build a better country . They have succeeded which is why recent events in Catalonia have caused more sadness than anger - some Catalans don`t want to continue being Spanish , some do , I`m not sure which is the majority but I`m sure the majority want to live in peace with their children educated in non politicised schools and with neutral media - in the BBC article you attach , Preston mentions Franco`s influence in Spanish schools and press censorship . Sadly , many Catalans feel that the recent Catalan governments have also had too much influence in education and in the media and have actively tried to divide the Catalan community . Would be refreshing to see some analysis of Catalan situation which doesn`t always refer to Franco and at least mentions how abandoned and intimidated many Catalans who also feel Spanish or who have no interest in politics feel .
As for images of hooligans goading the police absolutely disgusting but fortunately only a tiny group in Spanish society .

I don't think we should just sweep Mr Preston's history under the carpet, he's studied Spain for over 30 years now. We shouldn't try and sweep the Franco years under the same carpet.

I know Spain has tried to democratise, however, when you have a constitution which keeps those who were in power, in power, it's not really going to change is it?

The images of the hooligans are ten a penny, we even had them in George Square on September 19th, giving the same salute.

I hope and pray that the situation in Catalonia stays peaceful, and respectful, with a dignified outcome for all Catalans. It's up to Madrid whether that happens.

Another piece by Bella for your perusal.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/10/30/catalonia-past-and-future/

[JeMeSouviens]

New Catalonia opinion poll with changes since the previous poll by the same pollster in June.

Indy yes/no:

Yes 48.7 (+7.6)
No 43.6 (-5.8)
DK 6.5
Won't say 1.3


Constitutional pref:

Region of Spain 4.6
Autonomous Community (the status quo) 27.4
Federal state in federal Spain 21.9
Independent state 40.2

It also suggests that the proposed election in December will return a similar result to the last one, a pro-Indy majority of seats.

[IberianHibernian]

I don't think we should just sweep Mr Preston's history under the carpet, he's studied Spain for over 30 years now. We shouldn't try and sweep the Franco years under the same carpet.

I know Spain has tried to democratise, however, when you have a constitution which keeps those who were in power, in power, it's not really going to change is it?

The images of the hooligans are ten a penny, we even had them in George Square on September 19th, giving the same salute.

I hope and pray that the situation in Catalonia stays peaceful, and respectful, with a dignified outcome for all Catalans. It's up to Madrid whether that happens.

Another piece by Bella for your perusal.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/10/30/catalonia-past-and-future/Agree that we should look at all opinions including Preston`s when considering possible reasons for political situation all over Spain but to constantly link Franco with Catalonian " oppression " this century is inaccurate ( massive understatement ) and an offence to the many decent people from all over Spain who died . One of Puigdemont`s grandfathers fought for Franco`s troops , the other on the other side , many families all over Spain will have similar stories . As long as foreign journalists and writers keep up the Franco anti Catalonia stuff , many observers will fail to look at the wider picture .
What do you mean by Spain " has tried to democratise " ? In what way is Spain less democratic than France or Germany for example ? I haven`t said the UK but Catalonia ( and other regions ) has long enjoyed more autonomy than Scotland and the London government has withdrawn powers in Northern Ireland on occasions while Catalonia at present has hardly noticed article 155 because Catalans ( mainly independence supporters probably as they`ll have been appointed by independence groups during Puigdemont regime ) continue to be in power with internal promotion replacing those who flaunted the laws ( Spanish and Catalan ) . The constitution was approved by 91% of Catalan voters albeit 40 years ago .
I also hope and pray that peace prevails in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain and Europe . So far the signs are good but it`s early days and everyone knows that the " proces " has caused massive division in Catalan society . Divide and conquer was one of the main tactics of the " proces " ( and may be considered more violent than a teenage fascist anti independence lout punching an independence supporter by some judges ) but hopefully the future Catalonia whether independent or within Spain and / or the EU will not be run by such people .
I`ll comment on Bella Catalonia article later .

[JimBHibees]

New Catalonia opinion poll with changes since the previous poll by the same pollster in June.

Indy yes/no:

Yes 48.7 (+7.6)
No 43.6 (-5.8)
DK 6.5
Won't say 1.3


Constitutional pref:

Region of Spain 4.6
Autonomous Community (the status quo) 27.4
Federal state in federal Spain 21.9
Independent state 40.2

It also suggests that the proposed election in December will return a similar result to the last one, a pro-Indy majority of seats.

Was watching the Andrew Marr programme on Sunday and they had an eminent Spanish historian who was able to say with some certainty that polls were indicating 55% against in Catalonia with no questioning of that by Marr.

[ronaldo7]

Agree that we should look at all opinions including Preston`s when considering possible reasons for political situation all over Spain but to constantly link Franco with Catalonian " oppression " this century is inaccurate ( massive understatement ) and an offence to the many decent people from all over Spain who died . One of Puigdemont`s grandfathers fought for Franco`s troops , the other on the other side , many families all over Spain will have similar stories . As long as foreign journalists and writers keep up the Franco anti Catalonia stuff , many observers will fail to look at the wider picture .
What do you mean by Spain " has tried to democratise " ? In what way is Spain less democratic than France or Germany for example ? I haven`t said the UK but Catalonia ( and other regions ) has long enjoyed more autonomy than Scotland and the London government has withdrawn powers in Northern Ireland on occasions while Catalonia at present has hardly noticed article 155 because Catalans ( mainly independence supporters probably as they`ll have been appointed by independence groups during Puigdemont regime ) continue to be in power with internal promotion replacing those who flaunted the laws ( Spanish and Catalan ) . The constitution was approved by 91% of Catalan voters albeit 40 years ago .
I also hope and pray that peace prevails in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain and Europe . So far the signs are good but it`s early days and everyone knows that the " proces " has caused massive division in Catalan society . Divide and conquer was one of the main tactics of the " proces " ( and may be considered more violent than a teenage fascist anti independence lout punching an independence supporter by some judges ) but hopefully the future Catalonia whether independent or within Spain and / or the EU will not be run by such people .
I`ll comment on Bella Catalonia article later .

I've seen it quoted here, that one of the Madrid ministers has said that the new elections in December, if won by the pro independence side, then article 155 will be applied again.

It seems only one type of democracy reigns in Spain.

[IberianHibernian]

I've seen it quoted here, that one of the Madrid ministers has said that the new elections in December, if won by the pro independence side, then article 155 will be applied again.

It seems only one type of democracy reigns in Spain.Have not heard that and certainly don`t expect to . Sounds like a rumour started without any evidence whatsoever . 155 was approved as a last resort because the Catalan government was abusing power not because of their political views . Whatever the results in December , I can`t see the new government being so irresponsible again .

[JeMeSouviens]

Agree that we should look at all opinions including Preston`s when considering possible reasons for political situation all over Spain but to constantly link Franco with Catalonian " oppression " this century is inaccurate ( massive understatement ) and an offence to the many decent people from all over Spain who died . One of Puigdemont`s grandfathers fought for Franco`s troops , the other on the other side , many families all over Spain will have similar stories . As long as foreign journalists and writers keep up the Franco anti Catalonia stuff , many observers will fail to look at the wider picture .
What do you mean by Spain " has tried to democratise " ? In what way is Spain less democratic than France or Germany for example ? I haven`t said the UK but Catalonia ( and other regions ) has long enjoyed more autonomy than Scotland and the London government has withdrawn powers in Northern Ireland on occasions while Catalonia at present has hardly noticed article 155 because Catalans ( mainly independence supporters probably as they`ll have been appointed by independence groups during Puigdemont regime ) continue to be in power with internal promotion replacing those who flaunted the laws ( Spanish and Catalan ) . The constitution was approved by 91% of Catalan voters albeit 40 years ago .
I also hope and pray that peace prevails in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain and Europe . So far the signs are good but it`s early days and everyone knows that the " proces " has caused massive division in Catalan society . Divide and conquer was one of the main tactics of the " proces " ( and may be considered more violent than a teenage fascist anti independence lout punching an independence supporter by some judges ) but hopefully the future Catalonia whether independent or within Spain and / or the EU will not be run by such people .
I`ll comment on Bella Catalonia article later .

You should copyright that. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

https://t.co/IeIvwjf1Q6

[Aldo]

Was in Madrid yesterday when it all unfolded. Walked through the Justicia area and the police presence was huge. Mixture of both National (mean looking bunch) and Municipal Police. I counted in excess of 100.

This was around 3pm. It’s fair to say tensions were high!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IberianHibernian]

https://t.co/IeIvwjf1Q6Dreadful article that is full of lies and inaccuracies , the sort of article which is supposed to boost Catalan independence cause but will actually probably have the opposite effect . Like the Bella Caledonia articles desperately trying to look for left - wing support for Catalan independence is ineffective . Catalanism ( movement to get better deal fpr Catalonia including for some independence ) has traditionally been right wing and even now main argument is that Catalonia is richer so why should it subsidise poorer areas ? Many Catalan nationalists consider those from the south of the peninsula to be inferior intellectually speaking , another nasty side to their movement . Areas of Catalonia where there are more families ( usually poorer ) from other parts of Spain and further afield tend to be less enthusiastic about Catalan independence . These are the real victims of " oppression " in the Catalonia of Puigdemont etc. Very sad because Catalonia used to be admired by the rest of Spain for its business sense ( but with respect for the workers ) , creativity , organisational skills and work ethic . Now the " proces " has left it with a split society and hugely damaged economy ( highest rise in unemployment figures in Spain in October and almost 2000 companies have moved registered address out of region ...in October ) . Whole situation is very sad for all of Spain but especially Catalonia but if I look for some light at the end of the tunnel it is that there are still millions of decent people all over Spain including Catalonia who don`t want division and don`t look for division unlike some foreign journalists who claim to be experts on Spain but seem to have had minimal contact with Spanish people .

[IberianHibernian]

You're wrong about the case in Germany - the Bayernpartei stood in the last general election here ... they would like independence for Bavaria ...:crazy:
Although I have German relatives who live in various regions of Germany including Bavaria I know very little about the political system there . Had read that in Germany , France and Portugal parties seeking to change borders / get independence can`t stand in general elections . Some similar restrictions in Italy too perhaps . Do Bavarian party you mention campaign for complete independence at general elections ? Maybe they campaign for independence at other times but not during general election campaigns ?

[Moulin Yarns]

So Spain wants to make the parties which support independence illegal organisations. What a shambles of a supposed democracy.

[Bristolhibby]

So Spain wants to make the parties which support independence illegal organisations. What a shambles of a supposed democracy.

That’s an outrage to democracy. I’d like to see someone defend that.

J

[ronaldo7]

Dreadful article that is full of lies and inaccuracies , the sort of article which is supposed to boost Catalan independence cause but will actually probably have the opposite effect . Like the Bella Caledonia articles desperately trying to look for left - wing support for Catalan independence is ineffective . Catalanism ( movement to get better deal fpr Catalonia including for some independence ) has traditionally been right wing and even now main argument is that Catalonia is richer so why should it subsidise poorer areas ? Many Catalan nationalists consider those from the south of the peninsula to be inferior intellectually speaking , another nasty side to their movement . Areas of Catalonia where there are more families ( usually poorer ) from other parts of Spain and further afield tend to be less enthusiastic about Catalan independence . These are the real victims of " oppression " in the Catalonia of Puigdemont etc. Very sad because Catalonia used to be admired by the rest of Spain for its business sense ( but with respect for the workers ) , creativity , organisational skills and work ethic . Now the " proces " has left it with a split society and hugely damaged economy ( highest rise in unemployment figures in Spain in October and almost 2000 companies have moved registered address out of region ...in October ) . Whole situation is very sad for all of Spain but especially Catalonia but if I look for some light at the end of the tunnel it is that there are still millions of decent people all over Spain including Catalonia who don`t want division and don`t look for division unlike some foreign journalists who claim to be experts on Spain but seem to have had minimal contact with Spanish people .

Your continual swiping away of different voices in the debate is something I'd expect from El Pais. Where is your outrage to the jailing of people for having a different view to Rajoy? Isn't it incumbent on all of the people in the debate to take each others point of view seriously. It seems that Rajoy and his cohorts have tried to diminish the voices of other political parties to his. Some democracy:rolleyes:

The Independence movement is from the people, not left or right. It's a grass roots movement which has been built for many years, I'd say they were the decent people trying to make their lives better.

Another article from a Barcelona based journo.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/15/catalonia-independence-neighbourhood-nationhood-referendum

Barcelona basketball last night.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/926561025738108928

[IberianHibernian]

So Spain wants to make the parties which support independence illegal organisations. What a shambles of a supposed democracy.Where have you read that ? It is complete and utter rubbish . I joined this thread a few weeks ago without having any strong opinion on Catalan independence ( I`ve been in favour of Scottish independence since my teens though I don`t think that means I have to automatically support independence for Catalonia ) because I felt strongly that international press coverage of 1st October referendum especiaally from British press was far from partial . I`m assuming your claim that " Spain " ( Who is Spain ? - present government ? judges ? )want to illegalise independence parties comes from some British newspaper ( if so has British journalaism really got that low ? ) or Catalan independence website ( even then a very minority one ie from a party that is not represented in any local or regional admin ) . Independence parties have representataives all over Spain ( Catalonia , Galicia , Basque Country and in other regions there are parties which fight democratically for more rights for their regions in Aragon , Canaries ,etc ) . A tiny percentage of Spaniards may think that regional autonomy has been abused in some cases but in general despite Catalan situation I think the vast majority of Spaniards think that Spain should continue to give greater autonomy to regions than other countries in Europe . What do you think about freedom independence parties have in France ( Catalan independence supporters don`t even dare to look at French Catalans - why not ? ) or Italy or Germany ( though someone else on this thread who lives in Germany says that Bavarian independence parties are free to promote Bavarian independence in German general elections ) so I`m reluctant to use Germany as an example .
As for " shambles of a supposed democracy " ? Why supposed and why shambles ?

[IberianHibernian]

That’s an outrage to democracy. I’d like to see someone defend that.

JI`d like to see someone prove it`s true . It`s definitely not true . Independence parties exist all over Spain and have done since the transition which started in the mid 1970s and has been acclaimed all over the world as a model for other countries to follow .
What is an outrage and certainly has many people to defend it though maybe not publicly because of fear is :

1. Anti Spanish indoctrinataion in Catalan school classrooms in the last 30 years and in university lectures too .
2. Systematic implantation of independence supporters in influential positions in public services in last decade .
3. Complete media bias in Catalan TV and radio .
In all 3 cases we are talking of services funded by taxpayers .

I`ve no idea of your politics but I`m guessing that you`re sympathetic to Scottish independence ( many in favour of Scottish independence who follow European politics support Catalan and i suppose Corsican , Welsh , Cornish , Breton , Bavarian , etc ) like me . In the cases of Catalonia / Scotland I`m similar to you in that I look at Catalonia from the south of Spain while you look at Scotland from the south of England . I`ve no emotional tie to Catalonia while you do to Scotland . But I have lived in Spain for many years and think that any British journalist who questions degree of democracy in Spain compared with any other country in Europe is either biassed or has very limited knowledge of European politics .

[IberianHibernian]

Your continual swiping away of different voices in the debate is something I'd expect from El Pais. Where is your outrage to the jailing of people for having a different view to Rajoy? Isn't it incumbent on all of the people in the debate to take each others point of view seriously. It seems that Rajoy and his cohorts have tried to diminish the voices of other political parties to his. Some democracy:rolleyes:

The Independence movement is from the people, not left or right. It's a grass roots movement which has been built for many years, I'd say they were the decent people trying to make their lives better.

Another article from a Barcelona based journo.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/15/catalonia-independence-neighbourhood-nationhood-referendum

Barcelona basketball last night.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/926561025738108928I`m not quite sure what your point is here . We`re exchanging opinions here because we happen to support the same football team and we`re both interested in the political situation in Catalonia albeit for different reasons ( in my case because I live in Spain and for numerous reasons have an opinion on the issue ) . You`ll have your reasons though you haven`t actually said what you know about Spain and Spanish politics to make you have such clear opinions . You rightly ( in my opinion ) say that present Catalonia problem is not a left / right problem but then have a go at Rajoy . I`ve been open about where my opinions come from ( living in Spain but never in Catalonia though I have visited parts of region many times ) but I`m not sure where your knowledge of Catalans comes from . Or your knowledge of the Spanish press ? Of course the majority of Catalan independence supporters are decent people just as the vast majority of Catalans who feel happier combining a Catalan parliament in Barcelona with a national parliament in Madrid are also decent people ( in many cases we`re talking of brothers and sisters ) .
You may have strong links with Catalonia ( live there or have lived there or are speaking on behalf of friends / relatives who do for example ) so base your opinion on that ( have noticed oppression from Spanish authorities for example ) or may be basing your opinions on history books you`ve read . Whichever I presume you`ll respect the opinions of the millions of Catalans who have not had the luck to be protected by foreign journalists ( doesn`t sell books ) or more importantly by their regional authorities .

[Moulin Yarns]

Where have you read that ? It is complete and utter rubbish . I joined this thread a few weeks ago without having any strong opinion on Catalan independence ( I`ve been in favour of Scottish independence since my teens though I don`t think that means I have to automatically support independence for Catalonia ) because I felt strongly that international press coverage of 1st October referendum especiaally from British press was far from partial . I`m assuming your claim that " Spain " ( Who is Spain ? - present government ? judges ? )want to illegalise independence parties comes from some British newspaper ( if so has British journalaism really got that low ? ) or Catalan independence website ( even then a very minority one ie from a party that is not represented in any local or regional admin ) . Independence parties have representataives all over Spain ( Catalonia , Galicia , Basque Country and in other regions there are parties which fight democratically for more rights for their regions in Aragon , Canaries ,etc ) . A tiny percentage of Spaniards may think that regional autonomy has been abused in some cases but in general despite Catalan situation I think the vast majority of Spaniards think that Spain should continue to give greater autonomy to regions than other countries in Europe . What do you think about freedom independence parties have in France ( Catalan independence supporters don`t even dare to look at French Catalans - why not ? ) or Italy or Germany ( though someone else on this thread who lives in Germany says that Bavarian independence parties are free to promote Bavarian independence in German general elections ) so I`m reluctant to use Germany as an example .
As for " shambles of a supposed democracy " ? Why supposed and why shambles ?

I read that VOX (far-right party) had applied to the courts to have PDECat, the ERC and the CUP (independence supporting political parties) illegal. I can't find the original source, but I think it was a blogger who isn't in Spain or the UK.



Here you go, straight from VOX official twitter account

https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f534.pngURGENTEhttps://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f534.png VOX iniciará mañana acciones para ilegalización de las organizaciones criminales al servicio del golpe de Estado: CUP, ERC, PdCAT



and



https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/11/04/vox-pedira-tribunales-ilegalizar-pdecat-erc-cup-participar-golpe-1481009?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=ok&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1509779353



(https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/11/04/vox-pedira-tribunales-ilegalizar-pdecat-erc-cup-participar-golpe-1481009?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=ok&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1509779353)

[ronaldo7]

I`m not quite sure what your point is here . We`re exchanging opinions here because we happen to support the same football team and we`re both interested in the political situation in Catalonia albeit for different reasons ( in my case because I live in Spain and for numerous reasons have an opinion on the issue ) . You`ll have your reasons though you haven`t actually said what you know about Spain and Spanish politics to make you have such clear opinions . You rightly ( in my opinion ) say that present Catalonia problem is not a left / right problem but then have a go at Rajoy . I`ve been open about where my opinions come from ( living in Spain but never in Catalonia though I have visited parts of region many times ) but I`m not sure where your knowledge of Catalans comes from . Or your knowledge of the Spanish press ? Of course the majority of Catalan independence supporters are decent people just as the vast majority of Catalans who feel happier combining a Catalan parliament in Barcelona with a national parliament in Madrid are also decent people ( in many cases we`re talking of brothers and sisters ) .
You may have strong links with Catalonia ( live there or have lived there or are speaking on behalf of friends / relatives who do for example ) so base your opinion on that ( have noticed oppression from Spanish authorities for example ) or may be basing your opinions on history books you`ve read . Whichever I presume you`ll respect the opinions of the millions of Catalans who have not had the luck to be protected by foreign journalists ( doesn`t sell books ) or more importantly by their regional authorities .

Do I have to have a point to post about the wrongdoings of the Spanish state against the Catalans, on a thread about Catalonia? I'd rather not see old grannies getting beat over the head by a supposed European democratic state, or political activists/Elected representatives being sent to jail for holding different views to others. I've got friends in Bilbao, and have regular contact with people in Catalonia which forms my opinions on the subject. Shirley I don't have to live in the country to be able to form an opinion, and state it?:dunno:

I've been delighted to hear your views on Catalonia, although you've said you don't live there. I am also interested to hear your views on the way forward for Catalonia, the Basque country, and others. It seems to me the politicos in Madrid are dealing with this current situation in a rather crude way.

The bit in bold...I presume you mean the elected officials in the elected parliament in Catalonia, of which a majority hold the view that Independence is the way forward. If the Catalan people feel they don't represent their views, they had the chance to remove them, by the ballot box of course, and not by jailing them.

Each to their own though.:aok:

[lord bunberry]

It’s unbelievable that in 2017 we have political prisoners in a major European country. I won’t be going back to Spain while this is still the case.

[IberianHibernian]

Do I have to have a point to post about the wrongdoings of the Spanish state against the Catalans, on a thread about Catalonia? I'd rather not see old grannies getting beat over the head by a supposed European democratic state, or political activists/Elected representatives being sent to jail for holding different views to others. I've got friends in Bilbao, and have regular contact with people in Catalonia which forms my opinions on the subject. Shirley I don't have to live in the country to be able to form an opinion, and state it?:dunno:

I've been delighted to hear your views on Catalonia, although you've said you don't live there. I am also interested to hear your views on the way forward for Catalonia, the Basque country, and others. It seems to me the politicos in Madrid are dealing with this current situation in a rather crude way.

The bit in bold...I presume you mean the elected officials in the elected parliament in Catalonia, of which a majority hold the view that Independence is the way forward. If the Catalan people feel they don't represent their views, they had the chance to remove them, by the ballot box of course, and not by jailing them.

Each to their own though.:aok:First of all genuine thanks for answering . Ironic that there`s better debate here than in Catalonia but then we`re lucky we`re not there so can debate freely something that has not been possible there in the last decade or so .
Think people have to remember this is an exceptional case and whatever happens in next few days / weeks / months /years ( How many times have I said the same since October 1st ? ) people will be talking about it hundreds of years from now as an example ( good or bad ) of how ( not ) to fight for independence and whether it was successful or a failure or neither as I suggested two weeks ago though when an independent Catalonia but with a hugely split country in financial ruin looked possible . Totally different from Scotland in 2014 when a referendum was held and results more or less accepted . Catalonia referendum on 1st October was a huge part of the " proces " which was started a number ( 2 , 5 , 10 or more ? ) of years ago to get independence for Catalonia even if majority of Catalans don`t want it or don`t care enough about it to vote for it . It`s been a highly sophisticated " proces " which has involved gaining control of councils and other public authorities , using public organisations to promote the cause at home and abroad ( Catalan embassies , academics in foreign universities..) . Highly sophisticated and therefore very expensive so taxpayers`money has paid for referendum ,embassies etc. Ironically the greatest ally of the " proces " seems to have been the last few Spanish governments of right and left who have done nothing to reduce problems ( too worried about other problems - financial crisis etc ? complacency ? frightened by Catalan reaction on street ? ) until it was too late and article 155 had to be implemented even though it has hardly changed anything in Catalonia or elsewhere in Spain .
Ultimately leaders of " proces " couldn`t fulfill their dreams without breaking numerous laws ( financial fraud , data protection and a lot more ) and splitting Catalan society so badly that next few decades as an independent state or as a part of Spain will be difficult and causing numerous financial problems . Even their own economic experts had warned that an independent Catalonia is / was not viable now or in the forthcoming years ( another difference with what could have happened in Scotland after a Yes vote in 2014 ) and would have needed much more preparation ( economy , border control..) . Politicians in prison gives " proces " followers some oxygen but how much depends on how much evidence of abuse of public power and money comes out before December elections .
If I lived in Scotland I might well be very sympathetic to the cause of Catalan independence but having found out more about how the whole movement seems to have bee run find it hard to have anay sympathy .

[JeMeSouviens]

First of all genuine thanks for answering . Ironic that there`s better debate here than in Catalonia but then we`re lucky we`re not there so can debate freely something that has not been possible there in the last decade or so .
Think people have to remember this is an exceptional case and whatever happens in next few days / weeks / months /years ( How many times have I said the same since October 1st ? ) people will be talking about it hundreds of years from now as an example ( good or bad ) of how ( not ) to fight for independence and whether it was successful or a failure or neither as I suggested two weeks ago though when an independent Catalonia but with a hugely split country in financial ruin looked possible . Totally different from Scotland in 2014 when a referendum was held and results more or less accepted . Catalonia referendum on 1st October was a huge part of the " proces " which was started a number ( 2 , 5 , 10 or more ? ) of years ago to get independence for Catalonia even if majority of Catalans don`t want it or don`t care enough about it to vote for it . It`s been a highly sophisticated " proces " which has involved gaining control of councils and other public authorities , using public organisations to promote the cause at home and abroad ( Catalan embassies , academics in foreign universities..) . Highly sophisticated and therefore very expensive so taxpayers`money has paid for referendum ,embassies etc. Ironically the greatest ally of the " proces " seems to have been the last few Spanish governments of right and left who have done nothing to reduce problems ( too worried about other problems - financial crisis etc ? complacency ? frightened by Catalan reaction on street ? ) until it was too late and article 155 had to be implemented even though it has hardly changed anything in Catalonia or elsewhere in Spain .
Ultimately leaders of " proces " couldn`t fulfill their dreams without breaking numerous laws ( financial fraud , data protection and a lot more ) and splitting Catalan society so badly that next few decades as an independent state or as a part of Spain will be difficult and causing numerous financial problems . Even their own economic experts had warned that an independent Catalonia is / was not viable now or in the forthcoming years ( another difference with what could have happened in Scotland after a Yes vote in 2014 ) and would have needed much more preparation ( economy , border control..) . Politicians in prison gives " proces " followers some oxygen but how much depends on how much evidence of abuse of public power and money comes out before December elections .
If I lived in Scotland I might well be very sympathetic to the cause of Catalan independence but having found out more about how the whole movement seems to have bee run find it hard to have anay sympathy .


Have to say I think you're overegging the pudding somewhat. To say there hasn't been free debate in Catalonia is nonsense. It's not like the Ciudadonos leadership has been locked up or anything. :rolleyes:

The 2015 election was called early specifically to address the question of an independence referendum. The Junts pel Si coalition stood on a mandate of the "proces", openly declared they would hold a referendum and if they won, would declare independence. The result was pro-Indy 48%, anti-Indy 39%, officially-ambivalent-but-favouring-a-referendum 11%.

The mandate of parties seeking a legally agreed referendum seems unquestionable to me and every poll shows 70-80% support in Catalonia for such a referendum. Now, you might say that the independentistas were somewhat foolhardy to press ahead without agreement, and I have some sympathy for that, but what else could they do? They made every attempt to agree a negotiated referendum but were stonewalled at every turn, so they carried out what they said they'd do when they put themselves before the electorate.

An independent Catalonia would be more than economically viable unless Spain and the EU act in a vindictive way against it (and to be fair, there's every sign that if it came to it, that's exactly what they'd do).

[lord bunberry]

I’m finding it heartbreaking seeing all the stuff on Twitter from the brave people of Catalonia. Democracy is dead in Spain, corruption and fascism has taken over.

[IberianHibernian]

I’m finding it heartbreaking seeing all the stuff on Twitter from the brave people of Catalonia. Democracy is dead in Spain, corruption and fascism has taken over.Not taking sides here but some would say exactly the same as you but with the " brave Catalans " being those who are against independence but have had to keep quiet and see their rights eroded over the years and totally ignored in the last 2 or 3 . And accusations of " fascism " would be aimed at those who`ve led the independence movement . Situation is far from clear yet and division caused by independence movement ( I refer to the independence movement of the last decade since past and future movements may be considered far more acceptable by all democrats ) will take generations to cure . I`m trying to be positive and think that democracy in Catalonia is going to resusitate now after a decade in gradual decline culminataing in almost no democracay at all in the last few months ie many Catalans felt that democracy was dead in Catalonia . Hopefully , Catalonia can recover socially and economically so that ALL Catalans can live without intimidation and division and democratically ALL Catalans can decide their future . If the majority of Catalans want it , would love to see Scotland and Catalonia as new independent countries in 10 years`time ( I say 10 because in Catalonia`s case 10 would be an absolute minimum after problems caused by present movement ) IF both places ( can`t say country or nation for Catalonia ) can achieve a democratic independence with a clear majority and respecting the rights of the minority against independence too .

[Hibrandenburg]

Not taking sides here but some would say exactly the same as you but with the " brave Catalans " being those who are against independence but have had to keep quiet and see their rights eroded over the years and totally ignored in the last 2 or 3 . And accusations of " fascism " would be aimed at those who`ve led the independence movement . Situation is far from clear yet and division caused by independence movement ( I refer to the independence movement of the last decade since past and future movements may be considered far more acceptable by all democrats ) will take generations to cure . I`m trying to be positive and think that democracy in Catalonia is going to resusitate now after a decade in gradual decline culminataing in almost no democracay at all in the last few months ie many Catalans felt that democracy was dead in Catalonia . Hopefully , Catalonia can recover socially and economically so that ALL Catalans can live without intimidation and division and democratically ALL Catalans can decide their future . If the majority of Catalans want it , would love to see Scotland and Catalonia as new independent countries in 10 years`time ( I say 10 because in Catalonia`s case 10 would be an absolute minimum after problems caused by present movement ) IF both places ( can`t say country or nation for Catalonia ) can achieve a democratic independence with a clear majority and respecting the rights of the minority against independence too .

The only reason that democracy is dead in Catalonia is that the Spanish government refuse to allow a referendum on their independence. Have the referendum, see what the people want and move on from there. Easy.

[lord bunberry]

Not taking sides here but some would say exactly the same as you but with the " brave Catalans " being those who are against independence but have had to keep quiet and see their rights eroded over the years and totally ignored in the last 2 or 3 . And accusations of " fascism " would be aimed at those who`ve led the independence movement . Situation is far from clear yet and division caused by independence movement ( I refer to the independence movement of the last decade since past and future movements may be considered far more acceptable by all democrats ) will take generations to cure . I`m trying to be positive and think that democracy in Catalonia is going to resusitate now after a decade in gradual decline culminataing in almost no democracay at all in the last few months ie many Catalans felt that democracy was dead in Catalonia . Hopefully , Catalonia can recover socially and economically so that ALL Catalans can live without intimidation and division and democratically ALL Catalans can decide their future . If the majority of Catalans want it , would love to see Scotland and Catalonia as new independent countries in 10 years`time ( I say 10 because in Catalonia`s case 10 would be an absolute minimum after problems caused by present movement ) IF both places ( can`t say country or nation for Catalonia ) can achieve a democratic independence with a clear majority and respecting the rights of the minority against independence too .
How can you say that? Democracy has existed in Catalonia for a long time, until the Spanish government decided it didn’t like like what democracy meant and started imprisoning democratically elected people for carrying out the wishes of those who elected them. We have judges blaming the peaceful protesters for the violence carried out by the Spanish police, and journalists being jailed for supporting a democratically elected government. Nothing has been seen like this in Europe since the 1940s. I presume you live in Spain and are unaware of how the situation looks from the outside.
Its an absolute scandal that the EU are standing by Spain and allowing this to happen. I fully expect Junker to emerge from an aeroplane waving a piece of paper soon.
We shouldn’t be allowing this to happen.

[IberianHibernian]

How can you say that? Democracy has existed in Catalonia for a long time, until the Spanish government decided it didn’t like like what democracy meant and started imprisoning democratically elected people for carrying out the wishes of those who elected them. We have judges blaming the peaceful protesters for the violence carried out by the Spanish police, and journalists being jailed for supporting a democratically elected government. Nothing has been seen like this in Europe since the 1940s. I presume you live in Spain and are unaware of how the situation looks from the outside.
Its an absolute scandal that the EU are standing by Spain and allowing this to happen. I fully expect Junker to emerge from an aeroplane waving a piece of paper soon.
We shouldn’t be allowing this to happen. Yes I live in Spain though in the south . I`m aware that foreign press coverage has often not been favourable to Spain during recent political crisis ( I joined this thread after the illegal referendum of 1st October to comment on press bias more than opinion on Catalan independence - at the time most disagreed with me but since then claims of false images etc have been confirmed ) . For some reason anti Spain bias has been particularly noticeable in the British press - Brexit affect ? British academics who sell books about Franco ? Obviously in Scotland there are extra reasons for some Scots being extra sympathetic towards an independence movement against a bigger neighbour though there are many differences between the two situations . Whole situation is very sad for all of Spain but especially for Catalonia which has been left scarred socially and economically and will take a long time to recover .
One of the interesting aspects of whole situation has been the international press coverage . The independence movement " proces " were very aware of need for international support and have devoted many hours and euros in the last decade to inviting foreign journalists to Catalonia , conferences in Catalonia and abroad etc and were very quick to send images of supposed police violence on day of " referendum " even though some of the images were from several years before on days of strikes with police actually Catalan regional police service . The Spanish government was very slow to try to offer some balance to international press coverage . As for European Union , do you expect them to support a movement which has broken so many laws in the last few years apart from the fact that the EU doesn`t want member states breaking up ( Brexit gives Scotland a chance for independence which it wouldn`t have had with Britain within the UK even with a Yes vote in 2014 ) .
A few other points : 1. Who are the detained journalists you refer to ? I`m not aware of any journalists being detained ? Are you meaning ex president Puigdemont who was a journalist before he became a politician ? 2. When have judges blamed peaceful protesters for violence carried out by others ? Lastly but most important is that you say that there has been democracy in Catalonia for a long time . This is the real issue - many would say that there has been full democracy in all of Spain since the transition ( starting in early 80s ) except in Catalonia in the last few years when the regional government has had full control of the parliament ( closed it down for a couple of weeks soon after " referendum " to prevent debate and on the day of the declaration of independence ( now only " symbolic " ? ) didn`t let opposition have full right of debate , media ( still have control of public TV and radio in Catalonia ) and a huge political influence in other sectors ( education especially ) . In short , there has not been full democracy in Catalonia in recent years .

[IberianHibernian]

The only reason that democracy is dead in Catalonia is that the Spanish government refuse to allow a referendum on their independence. Have the referendum, see what the people want and move on from there. Easy.Living in Germany you`ll know what it`s like to live in a country where regions have a lot of autonomy but the constitution makes it very difficult for those regions to get independence . How easy would it be for Bavaria or any other region of Germanay to have a fully - binding referendum ? The Spanish constitution is based on the German one with the now ( in ) famous article 155 ( which so far has been a massive success ) also coming from the German constitution although with another number . Spain is supposed to be the European country which offers regions most autonomy after Germany and Catalonia has had more autonomy than other Spanish regions .
Many ways of interpreting why democracy is " dead " in Catalonia . Those that say it is now ( at demonstrations in last couple of weeks or in declarations from party meetings in Brussels ) have been in charge in the last few years with complete control of parliament . media , education , etc and have broken numerous Spanish and Catalan laws to keep control . Their political opponents in Catalonia will say that this stranglehold of media , education and other public institutions has meant that democracy has been far from perfect in the last decade or much longer .
Whoever is right , situations are very different from those in Britain ( for history and legal situation etc ) and probably Germany ( not sure how Germaan central government would react to challenge to constitution ) .

[Hibrandenburg]

Living in Germany you`ll know what it`s like to live in a country where regions have a lot of autonomy but the constitution makes it very difficult for those regions to get independence . How easy would it be for Bavaria or any other region of Germanay to have a fully - binding referendum ? The Spanish constitution is based on the German one with the now ( in ) famous article 155 ( which so far has been a massive success ) also coming from the German constitution although with another number . Spain is supposed to be the European country which offers regions most autonomy after Germany and Catalonia has had more autonomy than other Spanish regions .
Many ways of interpreting why democracy is " dead " in Catalonia . Those that say it is now ( at demonstrations in last couple of weeks or in declarations from party meetings in Brussels ) have been in charge in the last few years with complete control of parliament . media , education , etc and have broken numerous Spanish and Catalan laws to keep control . Their political opponents in Catalonia will say that this stranglehold of media , education and other public institutions has meant that democracy has been far from perfect in the last decade or much longer .
Whoever is right , situations are very different from those in Britain ( for history and legal situation etc ) and probably Germany ( not sure how Germaan central government would react to challenge to constitution ) .

It would take a 2/3 majority in the German parliament to allow a referendum on a Bavarian independence vote. It is possible although unlikely as less than 1/3 of the Bavarian population would even consider it. However, if that was to change I'm certain that Germany unlike Spain has learned from its fascist past and would recognise the democratic will of the people.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes I live in Spain though in the south . I`m aware that foreign press coverage has often not been favourable to Spain during recent political crisis ( I joined this thread after the illegal referendum of 1st October to comment on press bias more than opinion on Catalan independence - at the time most disagreed with me but since then claims of false images etc have been confirmed ) . For some reason anti Spain bias has been particularly noticeable in the British press - Brexit affect ? British academics who sell books about Franco ? Obviously in Scotland there are extra reasons for some Scots being extra sympathetic towards an independence movement against a bigger neighbour though there are many differences between the two situations . Whole situation is very sad for all of Spain but especially for Catalonia which has been left scarred socially and economically and will take a long time to recover .
One of the interesting aspects of whole situation has been the international press coverage . The independence movement " proces " were very aware of need for international support and have devoted many hours and euros in the last decade to inviting foreign journalists to Catalonia , conferences in Catalonia and abroad etc and were very quick to send images of supposed police violence on day of " referendum " even though some of the images were from several years before on days of strikes with police actually Catalan regional police service . The Spanish government was very slow to try to offer some balance to international press coverage . As for European Union , do you expect them to support a movement which has broken so many laws in the last few years apart from the fact that the EU doesn`t want member states breaking up ( Brexit gives Scotland a chance for independence which it wouldn`t have had with Britain within the UK even with a Yes vote in 2014 ) .
A few other points : 1. Who are the detained journalists you refer to ? I`m not aware of any journalists being detained ? Are you meaning ex president Puigdemont who was a journalist before he became a politician ? 2. When have judges blamed peaceful protesters for violence carried out by others ? Lastly but most important is that you say that there has been democracy in Catalonia for a long time . This is the real issue - many would say that there has been full democracy in all of Spain since the transition ( starting in early 80s ) except in Catalonia in the last few years when the regional government has had full control of the parliament ( closed it down for a couple of weeks soon after " referendum " to prevent debate and on the day of the declaration of independence ( now only " symbolic " ? ) didn`t let opposition have full right of debate , media ( still have control of public TV and radio in Catalonia ) and a huge political influence in other sectors ( education especially ) . In short , there has not been full democracy in Catalonia in recent years .


You're last few sentences regarding democracy in Catalonia. None of the things you're pointing out relate to "last few years". Yes, the independentistas have played fast and loose with the autonomous parliament's rules and regulations, but only since September, that's not even 3 months ago!

And the reason they did so is pretty clear. They knew they had to compress the time between voting for a non-agreed referendum and actually staging it in order to give the Spanish government as little time as possible to disrupt it.

Anyway, now that "order" has been restored via 155 and the December election will be held under the full "democratic" protection of the Spanish state, what will happen if the independentistas win again? Nobody can claim the people are somehow being hoodwinked any longer, surely?

[Moulin Yarns]

Now, this did make me chuckle, but, if the BBC saw fit to ban 'Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead' when a certain former prime Minister died how could a state boradcaster possibly think this is acceptable?

IberianHibernian has accused the Catalan media of bias, what are your views on this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41977385


(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41977385)

[ronaldo7]

Now, this did make me chuckle, but, if the BBC saw fit to ban 'Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead' when a certain former prime Minister died how could a state boradcaster possibly think this is acceptable?

IberianHibernian has accused the Catalan media of bias, what are your views on this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41977385


(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41977385)

So, the BBC refer to the TV station as, the Spanish State Broadcaster. I suppose it is State owned, unlike the BBC. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Good Luck, Catalunya

19929

[John_R_Corbett]

Good Luck, Catalunya

19929I'd like to echo those sentiments

https://rlv.zcache.com/catalonia_estelada_flag_postcard-r3489df256761443daa7d9127965ab456_vgbaq_8byvr_324. jpg

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest polling indicates it's going to be very tight with the right-wing pro-Spain Ciutadans looking like being the largest party but the 3 pro-Indy parties being very close to an overall majority between them.

http://www.thenational.scot/resources/images/7202625.png

The polling during the campaign has seen the 2 blocs remain roughly static overall but with a steady drift from the ERC to Puigdemont's Junts per Catalunya coalition and also a drift from the PP and the PSC to C's.

[ronaldo7]

Still counting, however, it's looking like the Independence movement have won again.

Rajoy's party bringing up the rear.

[John_R_Corbett]

Still counting, however, it's looking like the Independence movement have won again.

Rajoy's party bringing up the rear.Good news on both counts then, hopefully correct.

https://www.calrei.com/12715-tm_large_default/7458-bandera-cataluya-estelada-64x160-betes.jpg

[ronaldo7]

19935

With political leaders in prison and in exile, Catalonia still sends a message to Rajoy, they have a majority for Independence, and the political prisoners need to be released, and the President allowed back to Catalonia without the threat of prison.

Visca Catalunya

[Moulin Yarns]

While the result gives the independence parties a slim majority it is one of the national parties that has the most seats and will probably be invited by Madrid to try and form a government.

[Bristolhibby]

While the result gives the independence parties a slim majority it is one of the national parties that has the most seats and will probably be invited by Madrid to try and form a government.

Which if they do will surely collapse as it would be ineffective.

Europeans have coalititions all the time (as we do in the UK now despite having a FPTP system).

J

[John_R_Corbett]

While the result gives the independence parties a slim majority it is one of the national parties that has the most seats and will probably be invited by Madrid to try and form a government.They may well do, can't see how it would work though. It's not like here where the tories can rely on being propped up by a party of similarly minded bigots (even if they had to bribe them) to have a majority. Not that they need it most of the time because most of the so called opposition either march through the lobbies with them or (l)abstain. There's simply no majority to be had for pro spain parties. How can a government function when it can never rely on a majority even on a vote by vote basis, how would it get anything through parliament unless they simply intend to ignore the majority.

[hibsbollah]

Which if they do will surely collapse as it would be ineffective.

Europeans have coalititions all the time (as we do in the UK now despite having a FPTP system).

J

We don't have a coalition government in the UK, strictly speaking, the DUP agreement is a bit different (semantic alert)!

[lord bunberry]

Another five elected politicians jailed today. Spain has now returned to fascism. Why is the rest of Europe standing by while Catalan citizens are being beaten and jailed for wanting independence? It’s an absolute disgrace that this is happening within the EU. I will be avoiding the majority of Spain for the foreseeable future.

[Dinkydoo]

Theresa May says to Nicola Sturgeon.

TM: Don't you dare hold a referrendum. If you do, it will be illegal

NS: I'm holding one anyway

TM: It won't count, it's illegal

NS proceeds to divert a couple of million quid to holding the referrendum.

What do you think would happen?

This kind of political stand-off results in absolutely no winners in the short term. The State, although they may be wrong in their decision to deny a referrendum, has their hands totally tied after this kind of consultation.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

Theresa May says to Nicola Sturgeon.

TM: Don't you dare hold a referrendum. If you do, it will be illegal

NS: I'm holding one anyway

TM: It won't count, it's illegal

NS proceeds to divert a couple of million quid to holding the referrendum.

What do you think would happen?

This kind of political stand-off results in absolutely no winners in the short term. The State, although they may be wrong in their decision to deny a referrendum, has their hands totally tied after this kind of consultation.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

See, if there is a working set of political and electoral apparatus in a country / region. And the people of that place decide they want something and this is backed by the population in a plebiscite. Then they should to be allowed to exercise their right to self determination.

It is the cornerstone of Human Rights.

J

[Dinkydoo]

See, if there is a working set of political and electoral apparatus in a country / region. And the people of that place decide they want something and this is backed by the population in a plebiscite. Then they should to be allowed to exercise their right to self determination.

It is the cornerstone of Human Rights.

JI think you mean democrasy, rather than Human Rights ;)

And you didn't answer the question.

Teresa May famously said "now is not the time" .... if NS decided that now certainly was the time, what would happen?

She wouldn't be first minister for very long.

I'd rather not knee-jerk into calling a neighbouring country facist, just because I disagree with a region of that country being denied a legal referrendum on independance.

Yeah, it sucks. But neither side has been very grown up about it. Where was the dialgoue? Surely trying to work with the state is better than slapping them in the face.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

Theresa May says to Nicola Sturgeon.

TM: Don't you dare hold a referrendum. If you do, it will be illegal

NS: I'm holding one anyway

TM: It won't count, it's illegal

NS proceeds to divert a couple of million quid to holding the referrendum.

What do you think would happen?

This kind of political stand-off results in absolutely no winners in the short term. The State, although they may be wrong in their decision to deny a referrendum, has their hands totally tied after this kind of consultation.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Has their hands been tied when arresting comedians for making jokes? Were there hands tied when they allowed today’s five jailed politicians to stand in the election? Were their hands tied when sent in police to break up peaceful protests. Were their hands tied when they banned people wearing yellow ribbons in support of independence? The actions of the Spanish government in Catalonia have been barbaric and totally out of proportion to what has gone on. It makes me so angry to hear the defence that they had no choice. They did have a choice, and they chose brutality and oppression.
Facists.

[Dinkydoo]

Has their hands been tied when arresting comedians for making jokes?

Can't defend that, if that's exactly what happened.



Were there hands tied when they allowed today’s five jailed politicians to stand in the election?

I mean, they did say no, don't do this.

They did it.

If they said oh ok, don't do it again. What precedent does that set?

It's a really difficult one.




Were their hands tied when sent in police to break up peaceful protests. Were their hands tied when they banned people wearing yellow ribbons in support of independence? The actions of the Spanish government in Catalonia have been barbaric and totally out of proportion to what has gone on.

Yep, no idea wtf they were thinking about when they sent the police in to break up the polling centres. That was a terrible idea and the images and video of innocent voters being assualted was awful.

Poor politics on both sides lead to an unwinnable situation and the Spanish government that day made it worse.



It makes me so angry to hear the defence that they had no choice. They did have a choice, and they chose brutality and oppression.
Facists.

You've also avoided answering my original question. What happens if Nicola Sturgeon holds a referrendum after being told no?

She'd be out of a job, at least.

It's funny, because this board generally (and imo, quite rightly) slags off the mainstream media in this country at every opportunity for selective reporting, pushing thier own agenda and turning the population's head away from the real issues that we want our government to deal with.

Yet when something crops up that we think aligns with our own political bias and can be related to Scottish independance, suddenly we're getting the full picture.

The opinion in other Spanish regions - Andalucia and Madrid are the ones I've spoke to people and listened to radio from - pretty much universally feel sympathetic towards the situation in Cataluyna, but also feel that they broke the law.

Despite this, partially because I'm not able to digest an entire rapid conversation flawlessly yet, I still don't feel overly informed about the whole thing. So I'll reserve judgement on branding the country as being facist until I feel it's not a knee-jerk to do so.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

Can't defend that, if that's exactly what happened.



I mean, they did say no, don't do this.

They did it.

If they said oh ok, don't do it again. What precedent does that set?

It's a really difficult one.




Yep, no idea wtf they were thinking about when they sent the police in to break up the polling centres. That was a terrible idea and the images and video of innocent voters being assualted was awful.

Poor politics on both sides lead to an unwinnable situation and the Spanish government that day made it worse.



You've also avoided answering my original question. What happens if Nicola Sturgeon holds a referrendum after being told no?

She'd be out of a job, at least.

It's funny, because this board generally (and imo, quite rightly) slags off the mainstream media in this country at every opportunity for selective reporting, pushing thier own agenda and turning the population's head away from the real issues that we want our government to deal with.

Yet when something crops up that we think aligns with our own political bias and can be related to Scottish independance, suddenly we're getting the full picture.

The opinion in other Spanish regions - Andalucia and Madrid are the ones I've spoke to people and listened to radio from - pretty much universally feel sympathetic towards the situation in Cataluyna, but also feel that they broke the law.

Despite this, partially because I'm not able to digest an entire rapid conversation flawlessly yet, I still don't feel overly informed about the whole thing. So I'll reserve judgement on branding the country as being facist until I feel it's not a knee-jerk to do so.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
The stuff I’m talking about has happened after the independence referendum. There’s since been an election for the Catalan parliament. Spain allowed the five who were jailed today to stand, and have today jailed them.
The independence referendum was illegal, but the Catalans felt they had no other option, I would hope the Nicola Sturgeon would do the same. What I wouldn’t expect is the oppression that the Catalans have had to endure.

[snooky]

My point was not a view on how democratic or otherwise the Spanish position was, it was merely a recognition of why their position is what it is.

But in brief I agree and disagree re the 'will of the people stuff' referendums can be deeply flawed processes. I'm not sure the recent bout of them in the UK have proven their worth in terms of either settling the argument or providing people with an informed choice. They seem to create more division and polarisation than the deliverance of the 'will of the people'

You got that right for sure, RS.
Sometimes the worst thing you can do is give people a choice. Try asking a bunch of kids if the want to play on the swings or the roundabout. Better to say to them "Everybody go and play on the shute." See, nae problem.

[lord bunberry]

You got that right for sure, RS.
Sometimes the worst thing you can do is give people a choice. Try asking a bunch of kids if the want to play on the swings or the roundabout. Better to say to them "Everybody go and play on the shute." See, nae problem.
What if people want a choice? They’re adults not kids.

[Bristolhibby]

I think you mean democrasy, rather than Human Rights ;)

And you didn't answer the question.

Teresa May famously said "now is not the time" .... if NS decided that now certainly was the time, what would happen?

She wouldn't be first minister for very long.

I'd rather not knee-jerk into calling a neighbouring country facist, just because I disagree with a region of that country being denied a legal referrendum on independance.

Yeah, it sucks. But neither side has been very grown up about it. Where was the dialgoue? Surely trying to work with the state is better than slapping them in the face.

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To answer the question, there would be a constitututional crisis. And if troops were sent to Endiburgh to beat people up and our politicians arrested, and Parliament dissolved that would be a sure fire way to independence.

I don’t for one second believe that the rUK would be as cack handed as the Spanish though.

Like I said, if asking permission for a vote and the answer is no, and the people want a vote, there has to IMHO a vote. This vote needs to be free of intimidation.

Anyway, when would May say “Now is the time”?

(Still rankles that she tells Scots when it is their time to vote).

J

[snooky]

What if people want a choice? They’re adults not kids.

The point I am making is not whether the people want a choice or not. It is, if they get one (unless the result is obviously going to be one-sided) then you create division. As I said before, the worst possible outcome in the recent referendums was a 50/50 split and that's what we got (more or less). They have torn first Scotland, and then the UK, apart.

[Glory Lurker]

Any country that imposes criminal sanctions for having a vote has a very serious problem.

[lord bunberry]

The point I am making is not whether the people want a choice or not. It is, if they get one (unless the result is obviously going to be one-sided) then you create division. As I said before, the worst possible outcome in the recent referendums was a 50/50 split and that's what we got (more or less). They have torn first Scotland, and then the UK, apart.
I don’t think it’s torn Scotland apart. I think it’s been largely positive in Scotland, and it’s engaged people in politics like never before. If you look at the debates we’ve all had on here, it’s been heated at times, but almost always civil. If there’s a difference of opinions, it should be debated and if necessary voted on. We can’t restrict a certain side, because it may cause divisions as that would only lead to more division.

[lord bunberry]

Any country that imposes criminal sanctions for having a vote has a very serious problem.
Yes, we’ll said. Spain decided who could stand in the recent elections, then blocked the winning party from pointing a president because they didn’t agree with the decision. Ultimately they put the winning politicians up in court and jailed them.
People can dance around this and find excuses, but this is fascism in action.

[snooky]

It's kicking off again....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43523811

[Dinkydoo]

It's kicking off again....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43523811At first glance I thought oh no, not again. Do people not have a right to peacefully protest... then I read the bit about people trying to storm through the riot police wall to get into government buildings.

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[lord bunberry]

https://twitter.com/cdr_pa_tgn/status/977338105635024896?s=21

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think you mean democrasy, rather than Human Rights ;)

And you didn't answer the question.

Teresa May famously said "now is not the time" .... if NS decided that now certainly was the time, what would happen?

She wouldn't be first minister for very long.

I'd rather not knee-jerk into calling a neighbouring country facist, just because I disagree with a region of that country being denied a legal referrendum on independance.

Yeah, it sucks. But neither side has been very grown up about it. Where was the dialgoue? Surely trying to work with the state is better than slapping them in the face.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Why do you think she wouldnt be FM for very long.

I think if tye nats had wanted to hold one, they would have and the tories and possibly other unionist parties would habe campaigned for a boycott, leading to a low turnout that would have meant any result was delegitimised, making the whole process pointless.

I highly doubt that the police would have arrested the cabinet!

[snooky]

I don’t think it’s torn Scotland apart. I think it’s been largely positive in Scotland, and it’s engaged people in politics like never before. If you look at the debates we’ve all had on here, it’s been heated at times, but almost always civil. If there’s a difference of opinions, it should be debated and if necessary voted on. We can’t restrict a certain side, because it may cause divisions as that would only lead to more division.

Okay, I didn't mean that in a nasty or violent way, I meant more in a divisive sense. For example, the main posters on this thread have their flags well nailed to their respective masts. There seems to be only a few posters holding the middle ground.
Sadly, I don't foresee there being a significant cross-over from either the Yes or No voters in the near or distant future so the indy division will remain, which is detrimental to all of us.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Okay, I didn't mean that in a nasty or violent way, I meant more in a divisive sense. For example, the main posters on this thread have their flags well nailed to their respective masts. There seems to be only a few posters holding the middle ground.
Sadly, I don't foresee there being a significant cross-over from either the Yes or No voters in the near or distant future so the indy division will remain, which is detrimental to all of us.

Agree with your last sentence completely. Which was my main issue with the SNP campaigning for a new indyref so soon aftwr the first one, bevause it didnt allow wounds to heal, created a permanent state of campaign in our politics (to the detriment of other areas) and entrenched people. And i say all of that as someone who voted yes in 2014 and was disappointed at the result.

[ronaldo7]

Theresa May says to Nicola Sturgeon.

TM: Don't you dare hold a referrendum. If you do, it will be illegal

NS: I'm holding one anyway

TM: It won't count, it's illegal

NS proceeds to divert a couple of million quid to holding the referrendum.

What do you think would happen?

This kind of political stand-off results in absolutely no winners in the short term. The State, although they may be wrong in their decision to deny a referrendum, has their hands totally tied after this kind of consultation.

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You missed the bit out, where our Parliament voted for another referendum, that's your Parliament, and mine, it's all the people living and breathing in Scotland, the Nation.

Why would a Nation, who were supposed to be an "EQUAL PARTNER" have to ask for permission from another Country?

[Future17]

I see one of the ex-Cabinet members, for whom an arrest warrant has been reactivated, is in Scotland.

[Hibrandenburg]

Carles Puigdemont has been arrested in Germany. Will be interesting to see what happens next.

[snooky]

Agree with your last sentence completely. Which was my main issue with the SNP campaigning for a new indyref so soon aftwr the first one, bevause it didnt allow wounds to heal, created a permanent state of campaign in our politics (to the detriment of other areas) and entrenched people. And i say all of that as someone who voted yes in 2014 and was disappointed at the result.

I, personally, don't want an Indyref2 at this time however, IMO it's unfair to blame the SNP for going down that path when you see all the pre-Indy1 promises made by the government being systematically broken and their self-serving policies steamrolling on.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I, personally, don't want an Indyref2 at this time however, IMO it's unfair to blame the SNP for going down that path when you see all the pre-Indy1 promises made by the government being systematically broken and their self-serving policies steamrolling on.

Yeah, i can see why you some think that, and its fair enough as a position to take. Its just not my view - i think the yes campaign decided to keep going as soon as the result was known. Im not saying it was wrong per se, i just think it demonstrated bad faith and a lack of respect for the result - but of course many others dont see it that way, which is just as valid a view as mine.

[Dinkydoo]

Why do you think she wouldnt be FM for very long.

I think if tye nats had wanted to hold one, they would have and the tories and possibly other unionist parties would habe campaigned for a boycott, leading to a low turnout that would have meant any result was delegitimised, making the whole process pointless.

I highly doubt that the police would have arrested the cabinet!

If she diverted a couple of million quid to hold an illegal referendum, her position would become untenable. Maybe the scale of punishment would be different, but there would be repurcussions, which was my point.

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[Dinkydoo]

You missed the bit out, where our Parliament voted for another referendum, that's your Parliament, and mine, it's all the people living and breathing in Scotland, the Nation.

Why would a Nation, who were supposed to be an "EQUAL PARTNER" have to ask for permission from another Country?

Yeah, my bad, the comparison isn't the same is it.

It would be the equivalent of Scotland seeking a referendum and not having the authority to hold one (if it was knocked back by our parliment or there was some other UK level override).




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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If she diverted a couple of million quid to hold an illegal referendum, her position would become untenable. Maybe the scale of punishment would be different, but there would be repurcussions, which was my point.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Ok, get you now - i thought you meant she would be removed (by someone) - her position may become politically untenable, agreed.

[ronaldo7]

Yeah, my bad, the comparison isn't the same is it.

It would be the equivalent of Scotland seeking a referendum and not having the authority to hold one (if it was knocked back by our parliment or there was some other UK level override).




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Aye ok.

Let's have a look at the Brexit referendum. Was it advisory or binding?

[Dinkydoo]

Aye ok.

Let's have a look at the Brexit referendum. Was it advisory or binding?This has something to do with the scenario I was describing, how?

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[ronaldo7]

This has something to do with the scenario I was describing, how?

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I don't accept the premise of Theresa's assertion that it would be illegal, or maybe we're being taken out of the EU illegally.

I'm sure the Electoral commission will put two and two together and eventually come up with 4.

[Dinkydoo]

I don't accept the premise of Theresa's assertion that it would be illegal, or maybe we're being taken out of the EU illegally.

I'm sure the Electoral commission will put two and two together and eventually come up with 4.Yep, I agreed that the comparison was flawed....you even quoted the reply.

"It would be the equivalent of Scotland seeking to hold a referendum and not having the authority to hold one"

There is no premise to accept. In this hypothetical, it just is.

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[ronaldo7]

Yep, I agreed that the comparison was flawed....you even quoted the reply.

"It would be the equivalent of Scotland seeking to hold a referendum and not having the authority to hold one"

There is no premise to accept. In this hypothetical, it just is.

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It can't be hypothetical, as Ruth told us she won the election and Indyref2 was dead in the water.

[Dinkydoo]

It can't be hypothetical, as Ruth told us she won the election and Indyref2 was dead in the water.Well, I won't be the first to say it but Ruth talks ***** ;)

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[ronaldo7]

Tomorrow, it will be 6 months since Jordi Sanchez, and Jordi Cuixart, were imprisoned by the Spanish state for their political views.

They don't stand alone.

20554

[lord bunberry]

Tomorrow, it will be 6 months since Jordi Sanchez, and Jordi Cuixart, were imprisoned by the Spanish state for their political views.

They don't stand alone.

20554

They don’t.

[IberianHibernian]

I have paid a few short visits to Barcelona in the last month or so and have been glad to see that the city has returned to having the civilised atmosphere of any other Spanish city . As many reading this will know , Barcelona has become far more than the capital of Catalonia or one of the most important cities in Spain in the last 30 years . It has become a massive centre of culture , tourism , fashion etc etc . a cosmopolitan city welcoming people from all over the globe after many years of welcoming fellow Spaniards from all over Spain particularly from the poorer regions in the south and west of Spain .
The above is the positive impression I got after several very short visits to Barcelona but of course Catalonia is much more than Barcelona and the current political situation in Catalonia is not good for anyone except for some politicians who continue to have a very comfortable lifestyle while others suffer the consequences of their mistakes . 3000 companies moved their registered addresses out of Catalonia after the illegal referendum and failed coup dètat , hotel reservations fell while they rose elsewhere in Spain , unemployment grew in Catalonia while it fell elsewhere in Spain , Barcelona lost chance of thousands of jobs from European agencies leaving the UK after Brexit , etc etc but Catalonia is still a wonderful place .and I sincerely hope it can return to what it was ( a forward - looking European region which welcomes everyone whatever language they speak and whatever their nationality ) but I doubt that will happen until there is a big change in the leadership of the main political parties in Catalonia ( national and regional parties though those terms may upset some ) .
Considering how big Spain is in Europe in terms of population , I think it is surprising how little attention the Catalan crisis has received from the European press . In Spain , the situation reached saturation point where people were just bored after 6 months of non - stop news about the same every day . Other big European countries like Germany ( Spanish constitution banning independence for regions is based on Germany`s constitution ) , France or Italy would never have let situation get as far as Spain did while the UK is an exception as regards referendum etc.
As in October 2017 ( and more importantly before - most of the accusations against those in prison in Spain or living outside prison in Belgium , Germany , Switzerland or Scotland refer to threatening / violent behaviour in September 2017 though plans including intimidation started several years ago ) most if not all of the accused were very aware of the consequences of their actions and have declared so openly .
Noone knows what will happen in Catalonia in coming years . The so far failed independence " process " has created a very divided Catalan society which is paying a high economic price for its actions while the rest of Spain is moving on from the terrible economic crisis which it suffered at the same time as Greece and Portugal . Multiple rumours from Balearics suggest that Mallorca and other islands might end up as part of Catalonia or as independent states at some point though I think that would take a long time .

[lord bunberry]

I have paid a few short visits to Barcelona in the last month or so and have been glad to see that the city has returned to having the civilised atmosphere of any other Spanish city . As many reading this will know , Barcelona has become far more than the capital of Catalonia or one of the most important cities in Spain in the last 30 years . It has become a massive centre of culture , tourism , fashion etc etc . a cosmopolitan city welcoming people from all over the globe after many years of welcoming fellow Spaniards from all over Spain particularly from the poorer regions in the south and west of Spain .
The above is the positive impression I got after several very short visits to Barcelona but of course Catalonia is much more than Barcelona and the current political situation in Catalonia is not good for anyone except for some politicians who continue to have a very comfortable lifestyle while others suffer the consequences of their mistakes . 3000 companies moved their registered addresses out of Catalonia after the illegal referendum and failed coup dètat , hotel reservations fell while they rose elsewhere in Spain , unemployment grew in Catalonia while it fell elsewhere in Spain , Barcelona lost chance of thousands of jobs from European agencies leaving the UK after Brexit , etc etc but Catalonia is still a wonderful place .and I sincerely hope it can return to what it was ( a forward - looking European region which welcomes everyone whatever language they speak and whatever their nationality ) but I doubt that will happen until there is a big change in the leadership of the main political parties in Catalonia ( national and regional parties though those terms may upset some ) .
Considering how big Spain is in Europe in terms of population , I think it is surprising how little attention the Catalan crisis has received from the European press . In Spain , the situation reached saturation point where people were just bored after 6 months of non - stop news about the same every day . Other big European countries like Germany ( Spanish constitution banning independence for regions is based on Germany`s constitution ) , France or Italy would never have let situation get as far as Spain did while the UK is an exception as regards referendum etc.
As in October 2017 ( and more importantly before - most of the accusations against those in prison in Spain or living outside prison in Belgium , Germany , Switzerland or Scotland refer to threatening / violent behaviour in September 2017 though plans including intimidation started several years ago ) most if not all of the accused were very aware of the consequences of their actions and have declared so openly .
Noone knows what will happen in Catalonia in coming years . The so far failed independence " process " has created a very divided Catalan society which is paying a high economic price for its actions while the rest of Spain is moving on from the terrible economic crisis which it suffered at the same time as Greece and Portugal . Multiple rumours from Balearics suggest that Mallorca and other islands might end up as part of Catalonia or as independent states at some point though I think that would take a long time .
What a patronising pile of pish. Catalan leaders are not living a comfortable life as so many are in jail or in exile. The people of Spain should be ashamed of what has happened in their name. Political prisoners in Europe in 2018 is an absolute disgrace. The only people that can’t see it are the Spanish.

[Mibbes Aye]

What a patronising pile of pish. Catalan leaders are not living a comfortable life as so many are in jail or in exile. The people of Spain should be ashamed of what has happened in their name. Political prisoners in Europe in 2018 is an absolute disgrace. The only people that can’t see it are the Spanish.

Bad post and hopefully you can see that with the benefit of hindsight.

IberianHibernian has posted a few times on the Catalan issue, made it clear he is a supporter of Scottish independence but warned against the portrayal of the debate in UK media outlets as it fails to capture a lot of the nuance and complexity. The posts have been balanced and fair IMO.

Your first sentence is poor, this is meant to be a place for debate, not slinging insults, although I applaud your use of alliteration. Your last sentence is funny - what a sweeping generalisation about a nation! But then, isn't that what nationalists do :wink:?

[lord bunberry]

Bad post and hopefully you can see that with the benefit of hindsight.

IberianHibernian has posted a few times on the Catalan issue, made it clear he is a supporter of Scottish independence but warned against the portrayal of the debate in UK media outlets as it fails to capture a lot of the nuance and complexity. The posts have been balanced and fair IMO.

Your first sentence is poor, this is meant to be a place for debate, not slinging insults, although I applaud your use of alliteration. Your last sentence is funny - what a sweeping generalisation about a nation! But then, isn't that what nationalists do :wink:?
The first part of the post was a bit ott, I stand by the rest of it. He isn’t presenting a balanced opinion of the Catalan situation, he’s presenting his view from a pro Spanish point of view. Jailing dissenting voices (not just politicians) is not acceptable in 2018. There are many European countries and human rights groups who have criticised the Spanish for the way they are handling this. I would be prepared to bet that the extradition warrant for Clara Ponsati will be successfully appealed, and there is suggestion that the Germans will do likewise for Carlos Puigdemont. Where will that leave Spain if fellow European countries don’t believe elected politicians are safe in their country? This is about more than me supporting the Catalan people because I support Scottish independence, even though that’s how it started.
I wish that Iberianhibernian would acknowledge the other side of the story as well. Unless that happens it all comes across as one sided propaganda to me.

[ronaldo7]

I have paid a few short visits to Barcelona in the last month or so and have been glad to see that the city has returned to having the civilised atmosphere of any other Spanish city . As many reading this will know , Barcelona has become far more than the capital of Catalonia or one of the most important cities in Spain in the last 30 years . It has become a massive centre of culture , tourism , fashion etc etc . a cosmopolitan city welcoming people from all over the globe after many years of welcoming fellow Spaniards from all over Spain particularly from the poorer regions in the south and west of Spain .
The above is the positive impression I got after several very short visits to Barcelona but of course Catalonia is much more than Barcelona and the current political situation in Catalonia is not good for anyone except for some politicians who continue to have a very comfortable lifestyle while others suffer the consequences of their mistakes . 3000 companies moved their registered addresses out of Catalonia after the illegal referendum and failed coup dètat , hotel reservations fell while they rose elsewhere in Spain , unemployment grew in Catalonia while it fell elsewhere in Spain , Barcelona lost chance of thousands of jobs from European agencies leaving the UK after Brexit , etc etc but Catalonia is still a wonderful place .and I sincerely hope it can return to what it was ( a forward - looking European region which welcomes everyone whatever language they speak and whatever their nationality ) but I doubt that will happen until there is a big change in the leadership of the main political parties in Catalonia ( national and regional parties though those terms may upset some ) .
Considering how big Spain is in Europe in terms of population , I think it is surprising how little attention the Catalan crisis has received from the European press . In Spain , the situation reached saturation point where people were just bored after 6 months of non - stop news about the same every day . Other big European countries like Germany ( Spanish constitution banning independence for regions is based on Germany`s constitution ) , France or Italy would never have let situation get as far as Spain did while the UK is an exception as regards referendum etc.
As in October 2017 ( and more importantly before - most of the accusations against those in prison in Spain or living outside prison in Belgium , Germany , Switzerland or Scotland refer to threatening / violent behaviour in September 2017 though plans including intimidation started several years ago ) most if not all of the accused were very aware of the consequences of their actions and have declared so openly .
Noone knows what will happen in Catalonia in coming years . The so far failed independence " process " has created a very divided Catalan society which is paying a high economic price for its actions while the rest of Spain is moving on from the terrible economic crisis which it suffered at the same time as Greece and Portugal . Multiple rumours from Balearics suggest that Mallorca and other islands might end up as part of Catalonia or as independent states at some point though I think that would take a long time .


Barcelona is a wonderful city, I don't think anyone can argue that. It currently has hundreds of thousands of people on the streets, demanding the release of their political leaders.

I wonder when the Spanish government will start listening to the people.

[RyeSloan]

Barcelona is a wonderful city, I don't think anyone can argue that. It currently has hundreds of thousands of people on the streets, demanding the release of their political leaders.

I wonder when the Spanish government will start listening to the people.

Maybe it is?

The latest opinion poll published by the Catalan government in February said that support for independence had decreased to 40 percent from near 49 percent in October. The poll surveyed 1,200 people and had a margin of error of 2.8 percent.

[Mibbes Aye]

I wonder when the Spanish government will start listening to the people.


Maybe it is?

The latest opinion poll published by the Catalan government in February said that support for independence had decreased to 40 percent from near 49 percent in October. The poll surveyed 1,200 people and had a margin of error of 2.8 percent.

:agree:

It's an uncomfortable truth for the Scottish Nats who've tried to link themselves to the Spanish thing. They put me in mind of the Celtc fans flying Palestinian flags - merely trying to bolster their own image off the back of a complex situation they don't bother to try and understand.

[Mibbes Aye]

The first part of the post was a bit ott, I stand by the rest of it. He isn’t presenting a balanced opinion of the Catalan situation, he’s presenting his view from a pro Spanish point of view. Jailing dissenting voices (not just politicians) is not acceptable in 2018. There are many European countries and human rights groups who have criticised the Spanish for the way they are handling this. I would be prepared to bet that the extradition warrant for Clara Ponsati will be successfully appealed, and there is suggestion that the Germans will do likewise for Carlos Puigdemont. Where will that leave Spain if fellow European countries don’t believe elected politicians are safe in their country? This is about more than me supporting the Catalan people because I support Scottish independence, even though that’s how it started.
I wish that Iberianhibernian would acknowledge the other side of the story as well. Unless that happens it all comes across as one sided propaganda to me.

Fair enough to you for the first sentence.

As for the rest of it, it's been hilarious watching SNP-minded posters on here reacting to IberianHibernian's posts.

He's been clear that he's only posting his view and that he's also a supporter of Scottish independence.

Everything else he's posted has been balanced and fair. But it doesn't tie into the grief mentality that Scottish Nationalists are desperately trying to engender - some sort of coat-tailing on the Catalan situation in an attempt to make out they are representing the downtrodden and victimised.

The reality is that people rejected the narrow-mindedness of nationalism here, and very likewise would do so again.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Fair enough to you for the first sentence.

As for the rest of it, it's been hilarious watching SNP-minded posters on here reacting to IberianHibernian's posts.

He's been clear that he's only posting his view and that he's also a supporter of Scottish independence.

Everything else he's posted has been balanced and fair. But it doesn't tie into the grief mentality that Scottish Nationalists are desperately trying to engender - some sort of coat-tailing on the Catalan situation in an attempt to make out they are representing the downtrodden and victimised.

The reality is that people rejected the narrow-mindedness of nationalism here, and very likewise would do so again.

Just to defend Scottish Nationalism a tad, whilr it has its flaws, im not sure rejecting it as narrow nationalist is fair - i dont think it is that.

I dont know as much about catalan nationalism, but it has never struck me as narrow nationalist either.

I do agree with your point about the linking of the two issues though. Its always struck me as a bit trite, and a wee bit arrogant to presume to judge somebody elses country through the prism of your own movement.

[lord bunberry]

Fair enough to you for the first sentence.

As for the rest of it, it's been hilarious watching SNP-minded posters on here reacting to IberianHibernian's posts.

He's been clear that he's only posting his view and that he's also a supporter of Scottish independence.

Everything else he's posted has been balanced and fair. But it doesn't tie into the grief mentality that Scottish Nationalists are desperately trying to engender - some sort of coat-tailing on the Catalan situation in an attempt to make out they are representing the downtrodden and victimised.

The reality is that people rejected the narrow-mindedness of nationalism here, and very likewise would do so again.
I’m not really sure why you keep bringing up Scottish independence on this thread. Political prisoners and violence against peaceful demonstrators is unacceptable whatever side of the fence you sit on. As for fair and balanced, that is a matter of opinion.

[lord bunberry]

Just to defend Scottish Nationalism a tad, whilr it has its flaws, im not sure rejecting it as narrow nationalist is fair - i dont think it is that.

I dont know as much about catalan nationalism, but it has never struck me as narrow nationalist either.

I do agree with your point about the linking of the two issues though. Its always struck me as a bit trite, and a wee bit arrogant to presume to judge somebody elses country through the prism of your own movement.
I’m not sure people are judging another countries situation through the prism of our own movement. The Catalan situation is very different from the Scottish one. Thankfully for us we haven’t had to endure anything like what the Catalans have, and it’s something we should all be grateful for.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I’m not sure people are judging another countries situation through the prism of our own movement. The Catalan situation is very different from the Scottish one. Thankfully for us we haven’t had to endure anything like what the Catalans have, and it’s something we should all be grateful for.

I highly doubt all those waiving the Catalan flag in recent months are fully immersed in the issues though.

Otherwise i agree with you, and for all folk go on about the UK being a terrible country, tories etc etc, it seems there are worst places to live and be politically active...

[ronaldo7]

Maybe it is?

The latest opinion poll published by the Catalan government in February said that support for independence had decreased to 40 percent from near 49 percent in October. The poll surveyed 1,200 people and had a margin of error of 2.8 percent.


That'll be that then. 1 opinion poll v hundreds of thousands on the streets.

The Catalonia independence movement best just shut up and eat their tapas.