Catalonia

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m not really sure why you keep bringing up Scottish independence on this thread. Political prisoners and violence against peaceful demonstrators is unacceptable whatever side of the fence you sit on. As for fair and balanced, that is a matter of opinion.

I didn't join this thread until around the tenth page. By that point several posters, including you, had linked what was happening in Catalonia with Scottish nationalism/independence on a repeated and recurring basis. It was in the very first post. You will note that this is my fifth post on this thread, you are in the thirties and have referenced Scottish independence several times.

Moving on, I agree with you on the point of political prisoners. I think we have to be mindful of context and where the line is drawn (and by whom) between a 'political prisoner' and a 'seditionist' or 'terrorist' or 'traitor'.

There are no shortage of people in this world who would describe Republican and Loyalist paramilitaries, imprisoned during the Troubles, as political prisoners. There's a raft of Muslims who were subject to control orders who many would describe as 'political prisoners'. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned on treason/terrorism charges yet few would argue that he wasn't a political prisoner.

The point is it is easy to throw around an accusation of imprisoning people for political reasons but generally, that accusation seems to reflect the mindset of those making the accusation. And from an objective point of view and even with the benefit of historical hindsight, sometimes it seems true and sometimes it seems false.

[Mibbes Aye]

That'll be that then. 1 opinion poll v hundreds of thousands on the streets.

The Catalonia independence movement best just shut up and eat their tapas.

Hundreds of thousands of people turned up on the streets for both Hibs and HOMFC cup-winning parades, in a nation a little bit smaller than Catalonia.

It doesn't express the democratic will of the people though, does it?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Don't know if anyone read about the bar fight in a disputed Basque town ?
Young guys got into a fight with two off duty civil guards, one of the guards suffering a fractured ankle.
Three of the accused have been in jail for over a year awaiting trial, a trial that could see them banged up for 50 years as the Spanish government may charge them with terrorism offences.

Read it in the Guardian a few days ago.

[Mibbes Aye]

Just to defend Scottish Nationalism a tad, whilr it has its flaws, im not sure rejecting it as narrow nationalist is fair - i dont think it is that.

I dont know as much about catalan nationalism, but it has never struck me as narrow nationalist either.

I do agree with your point about the linking of the two issues though. Its always struck me as a bit trite, and a wee bit arrogant to presume to judge somebody elses country through the prism of your own movement.

It's a philosophical thing I guess.

The idea of 'nationalism' has engendered some of the finest contributions to culture, most especially in the second half of the nineteenth century, intertwined with the Romanticism that followed on from the Enlightenment. I'm a big fan of the composer Sibelius, who created some breathtaking works that were essentially a paean to Finland. It would be churlish to reject them because of their nationalist sentiment.

The whole point of nationalism is it is narrow-minded though.

Nationalism, by definition, creates an 'us' and an 'other'. If you're not one of 'us' then you're part of the 'other'.

How 'us' gets defined tends to be either by blood or soil. To be 'Scottish' you need to be born here or be born to Scottish parents. I don't think anyone would pretend that an English person who moved here for work, say, would be considered 'Scottish' just because their adult working life was spent in Edinburgh.

I don't want to be defined by blood and soil and I don't think many others do either. It's a primitive mindset. I suspect I've got more in common with someone my age, with my recreational interests and in my line of work in Spain, Slovenia or South Korea than I do with either of my next-door neighbours, even more so in our increasingly-gloabalised world.

Defining ourselves according to some trumped-up narrative about nationhood that only developed a few hundred years ago and becomes ever more redundant with every passing day seems a fool's game.

[Smartie]

It's a philosophical thing I guess.

The idea of 'nationalism' has engendered some of the finest contributions to culture, most especially in the second half of the nineteenth century, intertwined with the Romanticism that followed on from the Enlightenment. I'm a big fan of the composer Sibelius, who created some breathtaking works that were essentially a paean to Finland. It would be churlish to reject them because of their nationalist sentiment.

The whole point of nationalism is it is narrow-minded though.

Nationalism, by definition, creates an 'us' and an 'other'. If you're not one of 'us' then you're part of the 'other'.

How 'us' gets defined tends to be either by blood or soil. To be 'Scottish' you need to be born here or be born to Scottish parents. I don't think anyone would pretend that an English person who moved here for work, say, would be considered 'Scottish' just because their adult working life was spent in Edinburgh.

I don't want to be defined by blood and soil and I don't think many others do either. It's a primitive mindset. I suspect I've got more in common with someone my age, with my recreational interests and in my line of work in Spain, Slovenia or South Korea than I do with either of my next-door neighbours, even more so in our increasingly-gloabalised world.

Defining ourselves according to some trumped-up narrative about nationhood that only developed a few hundred years ago and becomes ever more redundant with every passing day seems a fool's game.

What is becoming abundantly clear to me is that there are different types of nationalism, some I like and some I really don't.

I don't know anything like enough about the Catalonian situation, so I don't think it would be right for me to comment on the rights and wrongs of that situation.

The people who object most to nationalism normally object to it because they object to the idea of that nation, and favour a nationalism of their own. Those who object most to Scottish nationalism tend to be British nationalists (and vice versa) and the same is true with Catalonia/ Spain.

Humans are still primitive on many levels, and until we can live in a world free of borders (a nice idea but pretty far off from where we are now in reality) then there will always be an "us" and "them".

I suppose it is all about your approach to this. Is it going to be an inclusive "us" where you encourage people to your country, and treat them upon arrival as being your own, or is it the angry, right-wing nationalism that seems hell bent on keeping foreigners out?

It is good that people have a commitment to something greater than narrow personal gain - there should be a commitment to a "greater good", whether that is a community, a continent, or why not a nation?

[Mibbes Aye]

What is becoming abundantly clear to me is that there are different types of nationalism, some I like and some I really don't.

I don't know anything like enough about the Catalonian situation, so I don't think it would be right for me to comment on the rights and wrongs of that situation.

The people who object most to nationalism normally object to it because they object to the idea of that nation, and favour a nationalism of their own. Those who object most to Scottish nationalism tend to be British nationalists (and vice versa) and the same is true with Catalonia/ Spain.

Humans are still primitive on many levels, and until we can live in a world free of borders (a nice idea but pretty far off from where we are now in reality) then there will always be an "us" and "them".

I suppose it is all about your approach to this. Is it going to be an inclusive "us" where you encourage people to your country, and treat them upon arrival as being your own, or is it the angry, right-wing nationalism that seems hell bent on keeping foreigners out?

It is good that people have a commitment to something greater than narrow personal gain - there should be a commitment to a "greater good", whether that is a community, a continent, or why not a nation?

I like your post but I would take issue with the bit highlighted in bold.

I think those who object to nationalism, object to nationalism. I object strenuously to Scottish nationalism but I would also object strenuously to British nationalism. The politics of differentiation is crude, divisive but nevertheless energises people. Unfortunately that energy, through a nationalist lens has translated into conflict and genocide when at its worst, and at its least worst distracts us from what we should focus on - delivering better outcomes for all, whether in relation to health, education or life chances generally.

With regard to your last sentence, the idea of nations or nation states is relatively new, at least in terms of Western liberal democracies. Germany and Italy are formulations that came about as late as the second half of the nineteenth century. 'Nationhood' is an artificial construct, that draws upon disparate elements such as geography and language, but ultimately reflects power-broking decisions made by those who exercised power at the time.

Lines on a map, drawn by whoever had the power at the time and redrawn by whoever has the power subsequently. 'Nationhood' is a bankrupt concept and diverts us away from what's truly important.

When you talk about communities, I agree. But I don't agree with a Scottish community, nor do I agree with other crude differentiation, whether race or religion or other.

What about a community of values? Regardless of your skin, your place of birth, the religion your parents brought you up in or you chose, your sexuality etc etc.

It is all about identity. I choose to identify with people who are like-minded. I don't wish to identify with people on the basis that we were born within a set of lines drawn on a map. Nor do many in a world that doesn't care about lines. That's why nationalism is redundant.

[Pete]

It's a philosophical thing I guess.

The idea of 'nationalism' has engendered some of the finest contributions to culture, most especially in the second half of the nineteenth century, intertwined with the Romanticism that followed on from the Enlightenment. I'm a big fan of the composer Sibelius, who created some breathtaking works that were essentially a paean to Finland. It would be churlish to reject them because of their nationalist sentiment.

The whole point of nationalism is it is narrow-minded though.

Nationalism, by definition, creates an 'us' and an 'other'. If you're not one of 'us' then you're part of the 'other'.

How 'us' gets defined tends to be either by blood or soil. To be 'Scottish' you need to be born here or be born to Scottish parents. I don't think anyone would pretend that an English person who moved here for work, say, would be considered 'Scottish' just because their adult working life was spent in Edinburgh.

I don't want to be defined by blood and soil and I don't think many others do either. It's a primitive mindset. I suspect I've got more in common with someone my age, with my recreational interests and in my line of work in Spain, Slovenia or South Korea than I do with either of my next-door neighbours, even more so in our increasingly-gloabalised world.

Defining ourselves according to some trumped-up narrative about nationhood that only developed a few hundred years ago and becomes ever more redundant with every passing day seems a fool's game.

Without wanting to go off on a tangent, this is very similar to my way of thinking on the subject. As a former nationalist, I started to look at things differently when I realised that I was probably facing the same issues as someone from my economic class who's living in...well they could be living anywhere.

I would consider myself left wing in the sense that I believe in democtatic socialism but I have issues when the SNP supporters describe themselves as a socialist party. I probably don't know as much about it as you do but I'm not sure Nationalism and socialism are compatible.

[Hibrandenburg]

Without wanting to go off on a tangent, this is very similar to my way of thinking on the subject. As a former nationalist, I started to look at things differently when I realised that I was probably facing the same issues as someone from my economic class who's living in...well they could be living anywhere.

I would consider myself left wing in the sense that I believe in democtatic socialism but I have issues when the SNP supporters describe themselves as a socialist party. I probably don't know as much about it as you do but I'm not sure Nationalism and socialism are compatible.

Tell that to all those Labour voters who voted for Brexit because Johnny Foreigner was taking their jobs.

[Smartie]

I like your post but I would take issue with the bit highlighted in bold.

I think those who object to nationalism, object to nationalism. I object strenuously to Scottish nationalism but I would also object strenuously to British nationalism. The politics of differentiation is crude, divisive but nevertheless energises people. Unfortunately that energy, through a nationalist lens has translated into conflict and genocide when at its worst, and at its least worst distracts us from what we should focus on - delivering better outcomes for all, whether in relation to health, education or life chances generally.

With regard to your last sentence, the idea of nations or nation states is relatively new, at least in terms of Western liberal democracies. Germany and Italy are formulations that came about as late as the second half of the nineteenth century. 'Nationhood' is an artificial construct, that draws upon disparate elements such as geography and language, but ultimately reflects power-broking decisions made by those who exercised power at the time.

Lines on a map, drawn by whoever had the power at the time and redrawn by whoever has the power subsequently. 'Nationhood' is a bankrupt concept and diverts us away from what's truly important.

When you talk about communities, I agree. But I don't agree with a Scottish community, nor do I agree with other crude differentiation, whether race or religion or other.

What about a community of values? Regardless of your skin, your place of birth, the religion your parents brought you up in or you chose, your sexuality etc etc.

It is all about identity. I choose to identify with people who are like-minded. I don't wish to identify with people on the basis that we were born within a set of lines drawn on a map. Nor do many in a world that doesn't care about lines. That's why nationalism is redundant.

I would consider nationhood to be a national evolution from tribes and clans, but taking on a larger scale. We have always existed in groups and have had to have leaders, leaders who govern, rule and have power in order to keep some sort of order. As I said, we're still a fairly primitive bunch and we're a wee bit away from being able to dispense with all of that yet.

I like your bit about a community of values, and that would be ideal. I suppose that with globalisation, social media and the internet age it is easier than ever to migrate towards those of similar values (although you could take a quick peek at Rangers Media today if you want to see the problems that that can also bring).

Sometimes it is good to have a mix - for a community/ tribe/ clan/ nation to have people with different values, free speech and the ability to exchange views openly and honestly in a non-violent way? Sometimes you need to challenge yourself, and others.

In most cases nations will have a generally common set of values (although it appears that many countries are deeply divided on a number of issues these days). Even though it might not always appear obvious, we often have more in common with each other than that which divides us. I am a nationalist with a deep mistrust of nationalism. I just happen to think that the loose, general set of values that exists within the Scottish people would be better served by Scotland being an independent nation. I accept the fact that many disagree. I deeply dislike the right-wing, ant-immigration rhetoric that is so popular in England and I am hugely frustrated by the fact that Scotland will be being dragged out of the the EU by this type of thinking - but we've made our choice and must live with it.

Nationalism should always be viewed with suspicion, but if it stands up to scrutiny I don't always think that it is a bad thing at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

But it MUST stand up to scrutiny.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a philosophical thing I guess.

The idea of 'nationalism' has engendered some of the finest contributions to culture, most especially in the second half of the nineteenth century, intertwined with the Romanticism that followed on from the Enlightenment. I'm a big fan of the composer Sibelius, who created some breathtaking works that were essentially a paean to Finland. It would be churlish to reject them because of their nationalist sentiment.

The whole point of nationalism is it is narrow-minded though.

Nationalism, by definition, creates an 'us' and an 'other'. If you're not one of 'us' then you're part of the 'other'.

How 'us' gets defined tends to be either by blood or soil. To be 'Scottish' you need to be born here or be born to Scottish parents. I don't think anyone would pretend that an English person who moved here for work, say, would be considered 'Scottish' just because their adult working life was spent in Edinburgh.

I don't want to be defined by blood and soil and I don't think many others do either. It's a primitive mindset. I suspect I've got more in common with someone my age, with my recreational interests and in my line of work in Spain, Slovenia or South Korea than I do with either of my next-door neighbours, even more so in our increasingly-gloabalised world.

Defining ourselves according to some trumped-up narrative about nationhood that only developed a few hundred years ago and becomes ever more redundant with every passing day seems a fool's game.

Fair enough, thats a good post - i dont agree with all of it, but i think we risk hijacking the thread!

[Mibbes Aye]

Without wanting to go off on a tangent, this is very similar to my way of thinking on the subject. As a former nationalist, I started to look at things differently when I realised that I was probably facing the same issues as someone from my economic class who's living in...well they could be living anywhere.

I would consider myself left wing in the sense that I believe in democtatic socialism but I have issues when the SNP supporters describe themselves as a socialist party. I probably don't know as much about it as you do but I'm not sure Nationalism and socialism are compatible.

I wouldn't pretend to know any more than anyone else and I do know I learn from listening to others.

First principles are important though, values are important, and like you I struggle to see how nationalism and socialism correlate.

There are examples from history where it has been made to work. Unfortunately they are what we describe as fascism.

And taking it off on even more of a tangent, the approaches in the likes of Germany and Italy pre-WW2 weren't 'pure fascism', they were driven heavily by a cult of leadership.

Getting back to the point though, there isn't a definition of nationalism that stands up to scrutiny. It's simply not rational.

[Mibbes Aye]

I would consider nationhood to be a national evolution from tribes and clans, but taking on a larger scale. We have always existed in groups and have had to have leaders, leaders who govern, rule and have power in order to keep some sort of order. As I said, we're still a fairly primitive bunch and we're a wee bit away from being able to dispense with all of that yet.

I like your bit about a community of values, and that would be ideal. I suppose that with globalisation, social media and the internet age it is easier than ever to migrate towards those of similar values (although you could take a quick peek at Rangers Media today if you want to see the problems that that can also bring).

Sometimes it is good to have a mix - for a community/ tribe/ clan/ nation to have people with different values, free speech and the ability to exchange views openly and honestly in a non-violent way? Sometimes you need to challenge yourself, and others.

In most cases nations will have a generally common set of values(although it appears that many countries are deeply divided on a number of issues these days). Even though it might not always appear obvious, we often have more in common with each other than that which divides us. I am a nationalist with a deep mistrust of nationalism. I just happen to think that the loose, general set of values that exists within the Scottish people would be better served by Scotland being an independent nation. I accept the fact that many disagree. I deeply dislike the right-wing, ant-immigration rhetoric that is so popular in England and I am hugely frustrated by the fact that Scotland will be being dragged out of the the EU by this type of thinking - but we've made our choice and must live with it.

Nationalism should always be viewed with suspicion, but if it stands up to scrutiny I don't always think that it is a bad thing at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

But it MUST stand up to scrutiny.

I'm going to possibly contradict myself but I don't disagree with you :greengrin. How those values are developed and set and become a narrative is a different story and helps inform the cultural identity which people adopt or sign up to and then leads to the idea and construction of what 'nation' means.

In Scotland, there's a developing sense of a Scottish approach to public sector reform. It's not party political and it is positive and progressive. It's also attracted interest from around the globe.

The challenge is that it fits into existing ideas of Scottish thinking but transcends the current debate - and Scottish thinkers were at the forefront of the Enlightenment after all. But doesn't mean that being Scottish inherently means being progressive - yesterday's semi-final is a useful reminder.

'We' aren't better because of where we were born or where our parents were born, 'We' are better because we don't want to tie ourselves to redundant identities based on flags, or lines on maps, or which church we got taken to.

'We' are better because of the values we espouse and live to and they are ignorant of white diagonal stripes on a blue background because that's just colour on a bit of cloth and doesn't mean a thing.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm going to possibly contradict myself but I don't disagree with you :greengrin. How those values are developed and set and become a narrative is a different story and helps inform the cultural identity which people adopt or sign up to and then leads to the idea and construction of what 'nation' means.

In Scotland, there's a developing sense of a Scottish approach to public sector reform. It's not party political and it is positive and progressive. It's also attracted interest from around the globe.

The challenge is that it fits into existing ideas of Scottish thinking but transcends the current debate - and Scottish thinkers were at the forefront of the Enlightenment after all. But doesn't mean that being Scottish inherently means being progressive - yesterday's semi-final is a useful reminder.

'We' aren't better because of where we were born or where our parents were born, 'We' are better because we don't want to tie ourselves to redundant identities based on flags, or lines on maps, or which church we got taken to.

'We' are better because of the values we espouse and live to and they are ignorant of white diagonal stripes on a blue background because that's just colour on a bit of cloth and doesn't mean a thing.

The people of Scotland are no better or worse than any other people that we share this planet with. We're lucky that we we're born into a society that has been formed by generations of progressive thinkers that have given us the chances in life we enjoy. People become part of the world they inherit and most people adopt the values that form that society. Many people in Scotland have been disenfranchised from the rest of the UK because they feel that their values, those of their families, those of their friends and those of their neighbours are being constantly undermined by a government that they feel does not speak for them and long for a government that they feel is of the people, by the people and for the people they relate to. To equate the wish for self-determination in Scotland or Catalonia as nationalism is fundamentally wrong and therefore all assumptions based on that premise are equally wrong.

[beensaidbefore]

The people of Scotland are no better or worse than any other people that we share this planet with. We're lucky that we we're born into a society that has been formed by generations of progressive thinkers that have given us the chances in life we enjoy. People become part of the world they inherit and most people adopt the values that form that society. Many people in Scotland have been disenfranchised from the rest of the UK because they feel that their values, those of their families, those of their friends and those of their neighbours are being constantly undermined by a government that they feel does not speak for them and long for a government that they feel is of the people, by the people and for the people they relate to. To equate the wish for self-determination in Scotland or Catalonia as nationalism is fundamentally wrong and therefore all assumptions based on that premise are equally wrong.

Nice post.

[Mibbes Aye]

The people of Scotland are no better or worse than any other people that we share this planet with. We're lucky that we we're born into a society that has been formed by generations of progressive thinkers that have given us the chances in life we enjoy. People become part of the world they inherit and most people adopt the values that form that society. Many people in Scotland have been disenfranchised from the rest of the UK because they feel that their values, those of their families, those of their friends and those of their neighbours are being constantly undermined by a government that they feel does not speak for them and long for a government that they feel is of the people, by the people and for the people they relate to. To equate the wish for self-determination in Scotland or Catalonia as nationalism is fundamentally wrong and therefore all assumptions based on that premise are equally wrong.

I agree with the general sentiment of your post but for the bit in bold, ...Really? Have they?

You've been away from Scotland for a couple of decades now?

We have had eighteen years of Labour government where social policy was basically the diktat of Gordon Brown. That was the Granita agreement where he stood aside and supported TB in return for control over economic and social policy.

That policy was investment in SureStart, child and pensioner tax credits, the minimum wage etc etc.

Under the SNP administration we've seen a refusal to take up powers to increase income tax. We've seen the insistence on freezing the council tax, a levy which punishes the marginalised and subsidised the middle classes. We've seen populist policies which reward the middle classes - I'm not ridiculously well-off but can certainly afford prescription charges. That's money being wasted which could be spent on addressing real need.

Of the people, by the people and for the people, nice words but not what's happening here in Scotland.

Still, brave of you to offer your view from very far away. I think maybe your premise is wrong?

[ronaldo7]

Hundreds of thousands of people turned up on the streets for both Hibs and HOMFC cup-winning parades, in a nation a little bit smaller than Catalonia.

It doesn't express the democratic will of the people though, does it?

I'd say, voting in a referendum or elections would be a better reflection of peoples right to self determination, wouldn't you?

[ronaldo7]

:agree:

It's an uncomfortable truth for the Scottish Nats who've tried to link themselves to the Spanish thing. They put me in mind of the Celtc fans flying Palestinian flags - merely trying to bolster their own image off the back of a complex situation they don't bother to try and understand.

Patronising much.

The gatherings yesterday, as I'm sure you were aware, were to bring to bring pressure on the Spanish Gov, for the release of their political leaders. I'm always left wondering when those so called International socialists are going to stand up and be counted on this one.

It seems they head for the hills, when the going gets tough.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm going to possibly contradict myself but I don't disagree with you :greengrin. How those values are developed and set and become a narrative is a different story and helps inform the cultural identity which people adopt or sign up to and then leads to the idea and construction of what 'nation' means.

In Scotland, there's a developing sense of a Scottish approach to public sector reform. It's not party political and it is positive and progressive. It's also attracted interest from around the globe.

The challenge is that it fits into existing ideas of Scottish thinking but transcends the current debate - and Scottish thinkers were at the forefront of the Enlightenment after all. But doesn't mean that being Scottish inherently means being progressive - yesterday's semi-final is a useful reminder.

'We' aren't better because of where we were born or where our parents were born, 'We' are better because we don't want to tie ourselves to redundant identities based on flags, or lines on maps, or which church we got taken to.

'We' are better because of the values we espouse and live to and they are ignorant of white diagonal stripes on a blue background because that's just colour on a bit of cloth and doesn't mean a thing.

‘We’ can’t make the transition to the sort of modern outward looking, socially responsible, European democracy many of us aspire to live in until we detach ourselves from the UK. It’s heading (at a rate of knots) in the opposite direction.

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree with the general sentiment of your post but for the bit in bold, ...Really? Have they?

You've been away from Scotland for a couple of decades now?

We have had eighteen years of Labour government where social policy was basically the diktat of Gordon Brown. That was the Granita agreement where he stood aside and supported TB in return for control over economic and social policy.

That policy was investment in SureStart, child and pensioner tax credits, the minimum wage etc etc.

Under the SNP administration we've seen a refusal to take up powers to increase income tax. We've seen the insistence on freezing the council tax, a levy which punishes the marginalised and subsidised the middle classes. We've seen populist policies which reward the middle classes - I'm not ridiculously well-off but can certainly afford prescription charges. That's money being wasted which could be spent on addressing real need.

Of the people, by the people and for the people, nice words but not what's happening here in Scotland.

Still, brave of you to offer your view from very far away. I think maybe your premise is wrong?

Yes, Trident, the environment, fishing, farming, healthcare, bedroom tax, Brexit are just some areas where many in Scotland feel their voices have not been heard.

I do get you, I understand completely where you're coming from and I hold similar views. I just think the realisation of those views would be achievable in an independent Scotland but impossible under a Westminster one.

[JeMeSouviens]

I agree with the general sentiment of your post but for the bit in bold, ...Really? Have they?

You've been away from Scotland for a couple of decades now?

We have had eighteen years of Labour government where social policy was basically the diktat of Gordon Brown. That was the Granita agreement where he stood aside and supported TB in return for control over economic and social policy.

That policy was investment in SureStart, child and pensioner tax credits, the minimum wage etc etc.

Under the SNP administration we've seen a refusal to take up powers to increase income tax. We've seen the insistence on freezing the council tax, a levy which punishes the marginalised and subsidised the middle classes. We've seen populist policies which reward the middle classes - I'm not ridiculously well-off but can certainly afford prescription charges. That's money being wasted which could be spent on addressing real need.

Of the people, by the people and for the people, nice words but not what's happening here in Scotland.

Still, brave of you to offer your view from very far away. I think maybe your premise is wrong?

New Labour was every bit as reluctant to raise tax. Actually probably even more so. Their policy was borrow from the rich to give to the poor, and make the rich richer by dint of that.

[JeMeSouviens]

Maybe it is?

The latest opinion poll published by the Catalan government in February said that support for independence had decreased to 40 percent from near 49 percent in October. The poll surveyed 1,200 people and had a margin of error of 2.8 percent.

The last *actual election* in December, returned the same pro independence majority* in spite of the proces going about as badly as it could possibly have gone.

* only a plurality of votes at 48% but comfortably more than pro-Spain parties.

[RyeSloan]

The last *actual election* in December, returned the same pro independence majority* in spite of the proces going about as badly as it could possibly have gone.

* only a plurality of votes at 48% but comfortably more than pro-Spain parties.

Yeah I know that I was merely putting out a question with regards to the latest polling.

I’m not overly minded to get involved in taking sides one this one. I can see why Spain feels the need to aggressively defend its nation state and I can see why the Catalans feel the need to aggressively push for their own. As far as I can see both sides have not covered themselves in glory with their tactics.

[Pete]

Tell that to all those Labour voters who voted for Brexit because Johnny Foreigner was taking their jobs.

Come on there was more to it than that. A lot of what you say about Scottish independence can apply here: The feeling of disenfranchisement, not being listened to, the feeling that rules are being made above your head etc...

What the two have most in common is a feeling that change is needed.

People can say that Brexiteers in Labour heartlands kicked out in the wrong way but why would they believe people when they say that staying in the EU is good for jobs? What jobs? They’ve been in the EU for decades and all that’s happened is deindustrialisation and a rise in low paid, low skill, emotionally draining work.

Jonny Foreigner in Teeside probably voted leave too.

[lord bunberry]

I didn't join this thread until around the tenth page. By that point several posters, including you, had linked what was happening in Catalonia with Scottish nationalism/independence on a repeated and recurring basis. It was in the very first post. You will note that this is my fifth post on this thread, you are in the thirties and have referenced Scottish independence several times.

Moving on, I agree with you on the point of political prisoners. I think we have to be mindful of context and where the line is drawn (and by whom) between a 'political prisoner' and a 'seditionist' or 'terrorist' or 'traitor'.

There are no shortage of people in this world who would describe Republican and Loyalist paramilitaries, imprisoned during the Troubles, as political prisoners. There's a raft of Muslims who were subject to control orders who many would describe as 'political prisoners'. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned on treason/terrorism charges yet few would argue that he wasn't a political prisoner.

The point is it is easy to throw around an accusation of imprisoning people for political reasons but generally, that accusation seems to reflect the mindset of those making the accusation. And from an objective point of view and even with the benefit of historical hindsight, sometimes it seems true and sometimes it seems false.
I think one of the defining moments in this will be if the Scottish and German courts decide not to extradite Ponsati and Puigdemont. That for me would suggest that the Catalans currently in prison are indeed political prisoners.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think one of the defining moments in this will be if the Scottish and German courts decide not to extradite Ponsati and Puigdemont. That for me would suggest that the Catalans currently in prison are indeed political prisoners.

German court released Puigdemont ages ago and also stated he can't be extradited to Spain.

[lord bunberry]

German court released Puigdemont ages ago and also stated he can't be extradited to Spain.
I knew he had been released, I thought it was just until his appeal against the extradition warrant was heard.

[IberianHibernian]

Representatives of Societat Civil a large Catalan anti - independence organisation are starting a mini tour of Europe this week visiting Berlin , Brussels and Luxembourg before finishing in Edinburgh next week . Idea seems to be to meet local press to counteract propaganda from Puigdemont and his followers and to let people know that there are many Catalans totally opposed to independence and about all the negative effects of the independence " process ". Will be interesting to see if and how it is reported by the Scottish press after reading some of the stuff written after one of the accused moved back to St Andrews .

[JeMeSouviens]

I knew he had been released, I thought it was just until his appeal against the extradition warrant was heard.

Extradition on the grounds of "sedition" was rejected. Extradition on the grounds of illegal use of public money (ie. spending it on the referendum) is ongoing. The problem for Spain is that if this extradition is successful they can only try Puigdemont for the charge he was extradited on so they'd have to let the sedition thing drop.

[lord bunberry]

Representatives of Societat Civil a large Catalan anti - independence organisation are starting a mini tour of Europe this week visiting Berlin , Brussels and Luxembourg before finishing in Edinburgh next week . Idea seems to be to meet local press to counteract propaganda from Puigdemont and his followers and to let people know that there are many Catalans totally opposed to independence and about all the negative effects of the independence " process ". Will be interesting to see if and how it is reported by the Scottish press after reading some of the stuff written after one of the accused moved back to St Andrews .
Tbh it rarely makes the news here anymore. I think most people are aware that support for independence in Catalonia is finely balanced. It’s the reaction from the Spanish government that has caused alarm from many around Europe.

[lord bunberry]

Extradition on the grounds of "sedition" was rejected. Extradition on the grounds of illegal use of public money (ie. spending it on the referendum) is ongoing. The problem for Spain is that if this extradition is successful they can only try Puigdemont for the charge he was extradited on so they'd have to let the sedition thing drop.
That for me makes the prisoners in Catalonia political prisoners then.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That for me makes the prisoners in Catalonia political prisoners then.

Sedition just seems so anachronistic, and slightly sinister. Fair enough the public money thing, because they did willfully do that (in a 'the law is blind' kinda way) but the idea of 'sedition' in modern Europe just doesnt sit right with me.

[lord bunberry]

Sedition just seems so anachronistic, and slightly sinister. Fair enough the public money thing, because they did willfully do that (in a 'the law is blind' kinda way) but the idea of 'sedition' in modern Europe just doesnt sit right with me.
Apparently they are being accused of rebellion rather than sedition. Spain is looking to lower the charge to sedition in the case of Carlos Puigdemont in the hope that Germany might reverse its earlier decision not to extradite him.

[Bristolhibby]

Apparently they are being accused of rebellion rather than sedition. Spain is looking to lower the charge to sedition in the case of Carlos Puigdemont in the hope that Germany might reverse its earlier decision not to extradite him.

Rebellion sounds just as archaic as sedition. Why not chuck in Treason while we are at it?

Regicide?

J

[lord bunberry]

Rebellion sounds just as archaic as sedition. Why not chuck in Treason while we are at it?

Regicide?

J
It’s almost like going back to the days of the Spanish Inquisition :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s almost like going back to the days of the Spanish Inquisition :wink:

Nobody expects that!!! :greengrin

[IberianHibernian]

Tbh it rarely makes the news here anymore. I think most people are aware that support for independence in Catalonia is finely balanced. It’s the reaction from the Spanish government that has caused alarm from many around Europe.You mean from a few Spanish judges not from the Spanish government I suppose ? What alarm in Europe ? Governments of larger countries ( France, Italy, Germany and UK ) will be glad to see illegal attempts to break up Spain have failed and smaller countries uninterested . In Scotland`s case , news of an illegal attempt by some in a region to get independence will definitely affect our chances of getting a civilised independence from the rest of the UK , something people should think about before waving Catalan independence flags with Saltires or inviting Catalan politicians ( especially ones with tarnished reputation for corruption ) to meetings in Scotland .

[JimBHibees]

You mean from a few Spanish judges not from the Spanish government I suppose ? What alarm in Europe ? Governments of larger countries ( France, Italy, Germany and UK ) will be glad to see illegal attempts to break up Spain have failed and smaller countries uninterested . In Scotland`s case , news of an illegal attempt by some in a region to get independence will definitely affect our chances of getting a civilised independence from the rest of the UK , something people should think about before waving Catalan independence flags with Saltires or inviting Catalan politicians ( especially ones with tarnished reputation for corruption ) to meetings in Scotland .

The alarm caused by the violent repression of people trying to vote. You werent alarmed when elderly women were being physically assaulted and dragged across the street by the police.

[lord bunberry]

You mean from a few Spanish judges not from the Spanish government I suppose ? What alarm in Europe ? Governments of larger countries ( France, Italy, Germany and UK ) will be glad to see illegal attempts to break up Spain have failed and smaller countries uninterested . In Scotland`s case , news of an illegal attempt by some in a region to get independence will definitely affect our chances of getting a civilised independence from the rest of the UK , something people should think about before waving Catalan independence flags with Saltires or inviting Catalan politicians ( especially ones with tarnished reputation for corruption ) to meetings in Scotland .
You have an extremely one sided view on this which is fair enough, but I take the complete opposite view from you. When a country uses violence and jails people for their political beliefs, then that is something that should cause alarm for anyone that believes in democracy. The Catalan situation will have no bearing on Scottish independence as for all our faults we live in a country that believes in the right of the people to determine their own fate. The fact that we’re now sadly leaving the EU after nearly half of the country voted against it proves that.
When human rights groups are raising concerns as to what is happening in a European country in 2018 we should all be concerned.

[johnbc70]

You have an extremely one sided view on this which is fair enough, but I take the complete opposite view from you. When a country uses violence and jails people for their political beliefs, then that is something that should cause alarm for anyone that believes in democracy. The Catalan situation will have no bearing on Scottish independence as for all our faults we live in a country that believes in the right of the people to determine their own fate. The fact that we’re now sadly leaving the EU after nearly half of the country voted against it proves that.
When human rights groups are raising concerns as to what is happening in a European country in 2018 we should all be concerned.

You sure you still want to be part of the EU that stands by and does nothing as this unfolded, and encourages member states to arrest the catalans.

[lord bunberry]

You sure you still want to be part of the EU that stands by and does nothing as this unfolded, and encourages member states to arrest the catalans.
It’s not something I agree with that’s for sure. It’s scandalous that the EU has stood by and watched this happen. It’s one of the flaws with the continued politicising of the EU, it has no idea what to do when a member state steps out of line. The union is more important than the citizens.
Saying that I still wish we weren’t leaving, but I know a lot of Catalans don’t want to be part of it now.

[lord bunberry]

Nobody expects that!!! :greengrin
Nobody ever does apparently :greengrin

[IberianHibernian]

The alarm caused by the violent repression of people trying to vote. You werent alarmed when elderly women were being physically assaulted and dragged across the street by the police.If I lived in Scotland and my opinion was based on what was shown on British TV then yes I`d be alarmed . But I live in Spain and know it`s a modern democratic country with well - prepared police forces which have a good reputation for their work in Spain and far beyond ( earthquakes in South America etc ) . It`s common knowledge that there was massive manipulation of reports of police action on the day of the illegal referendum and of statistics of injuries on the same day . Also that elderly people and children , even babies were placed on the front line on the day of the illegal vote and failed general strike a couple of days later . Almost nobody in Spain condones some of the police action on 1st October but it would be inaccurate to ignore other incidents like hotel owners being threatened with closure if they accepted police as guests or children of police being threatened at school by school authorities , etc etc ( and it`s a very long etc ) .

[IberianHibernian]

You have an extremely one sided view on this which is fair enough, but I take the complete opposite view from you. When a country uses violence and jails people for their political beliefs, then that is something that should cause alarm for anyone that believes in democracy. The Catalan situation will have no bearing on Scottish independence as for all our faults we live in a country that believes in the right of the people to determine their own fate. The fact that we’re now sadly leaving the EU after nearly half of the country voted against it proves that.
When human rights groups are raising concerns as to what is happening in a European country in 2018 we should all be concerned.Not sure what you mean by one - sided . If you refer to view on whether Catalonia should become an independent country for the first time in its history I`ve already said that that should depend on opinions of Catalans meaning all Catalans but any changes must respect the laws of Spain and Catalonia . Any future referendum on changes in constitution including territorial changes would have to be approved by voters all over Spain not just in Catalonia . That is not my personal opinion just the law according to the Spanish constitution and Catalan Statute .
Violence and jails ? I don`t think any of the politicians who are in prison in Spain or who have fled abroad are political prisoners . It`s not a satisfactory situation for anybody ( families of accused miss their loved ones , Catalonia is being governed from a distance though things seem to be running better than before , Catalonian economy is suffering , Spain is having to hear criticism about human rights etc as on this thread ...) but everyone knew what could happen or should have though I accept that independence parties had got such complete control of public institutions in Catalonia that some people may have thought that independence would be achieved without any problems with police (regional or national ) and other authorities .
I disagree completely about Scottish independence and Catalonia though . Both nations / regions have very different histories and I think Catalan situation will and does have a big bearing on Scottish situation . I warned of danger of Spanish interference ( maybe not the right word ) in Scottish situation several years before the 2014 referendum and after failed coup dètat in Catalonia situation will be worse . In 2014 I couldn`t vote but openly told Spanish friends , relatives and clients ( I have a small business ) I would have voted YES . If there`s another referendum in Scotland in the next year or so I still won`t be able to vote ( not complaining ) but I`ll certainly be aware that showing public support for a YES in Scotland might be misinterpreted as support for a vote for independence for Catalonia .

[lord bunberry]

If I lived in Scotland and my opinion was based on what was shown on British TV then yes I`d be alarmed . But I live in Spain and know it`s a modern democratic country with well - prepared police forces which have a good reputation for their work in Spain and far beyond ( earthquakes in South America etc ) . It`s common knowledge that there was massive manipulation of reports of police action on the day of the illegal referendum and of statistics of injuries on the same day . Also that elderly people and children , even babies were placed on the front line on the day of the illegal vote and failed general strike a couple of days later . Almost nobody in Spain condones some of the police action on 1st October but it would be inaccurate to ignore other incidents like hotel owners being threatened with closure if they accepted police as guests or children of police being threatened at school by school authorities , etc etc ( and it`s a very long etc ) .
You’ve lost what little credibility you had with that post. Do you think that people in Scotland are relying on the main stream media for our information on what is happening in the world? A modern democratic country doesn’t still hark back to facist leaders like Spain does.
I find your accusations of Catalan people putting elderly and young people in the front line to be absolutely disgusting. There is only a front line because Spain has created one. The Catalan independence movement has been based on peaceful protest, and Spain doesn’t know how to deal with that. Meanwhile the counter rallies involve racists and facist salutes. Who do think is on the right side of democracy here?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I dont think you can say the poster has lost credibility, just because you dont agree with him.

Ive enjoyed his posts - its great to have an 'embedded' poster giving us all the alternative view.

This is a good thread, which ive enjoyed and learned a lot from - and that includes the view from non-Catalan Spain.

You could say that you lost credibility when you accused him of having a one sided view, then said you had the opposite view (implying your own view is just as one sided, just from the opposite side!)

[lord bunberry]

I dont think you can say the poster has lost credibility, just because you dont agree with him.

Ive enjoyed his posts - its great to have an 'embedded' poster giving us all the alternative view.

This is a good thread, which ive enjoyed and learned a lot from - and that includes the view from non-Catalan Spain.

You could say that you lost credibility when you accused him of having a one sided view, then said you had the opposite view (implying your own view is just as one sided, just from the opposite side!)
My view is one sided, I’m not trying to pretend it isn’t. I’m not trying to pretend to be fair and balanced either. I believe he has lost credibility by saying that the Catalan people have been putting children on the front line. That’s nonsense as protests have been peaceful, they’ve only turned violent when the Spanish police have attacked protesters.

fwiw I also enjoy reading his posts as it’s interesting to hear how people view what’s going on from the inside. I don’t agree with him though.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see the Spanish police were stopping and searching Barcelona fans in Madrid and making them put yellow shirts in bins before being allowed into a stadium this weekend.

Imagine the threat to democracy from a yellow shirt?!

[lord bunberry]

I see the Spanish police were stopping and searching Barcelona fans in Madrid and making them put yellow shirts in bins before being allowed into a stadium this weekend.

Imagine the threat to democracy from a yellow shirt?!
Unbelievable
https://twitter.com/cataloniahelp1/status/987795144412934144?s=21

[snooky]

Rajoy has gone (a no confidence vote).
What now for Catalonia? Same old, same old?

[xyz23jc]

Be interesting to see what the 'Socialists' and Sanchez do.... Much the same as here in the Uk I'd imagine! One nation bollox as per! :rolleyes:

[Glory Lurker]

Be interesting to see what the 'Socialists' and Sanchez do.... Much the same as here in the Uk I'd imagine! One nation bollox as per! :rolleyes:

Yep. Solidarity with the workers we agree with.

[ronaldo7]

Be interesting to see what the 'Socialists' and Sanchez do.... Much the same as here in the Uk I'd imagine! One nation bollox as per! :rolleyes:

A good start would be releasing the political prisoners.

[Stranraer]

do the Socialist opposition in Spain back independence for Catalonia?

[Glory Lurker]

do the Socialist opposition in Spain back independence for Catalonia?

No, they’re full square against. For me, Rajoy getting emptied is just like seeing one half of the bigot brothers get humiliated in Europe - tearfully hilarious, but not hurting the other lot at all.

[IberianHibernian]

do the Socialist opposition in Spain back independence for Catalonia?There are 4 main national parties in Spain plus lots of regional parties from Canaries , Catalonia , Basque Country , Balearics etc Of the 4 national parties the 2 centre / right parties ( Partido Popular of Rajoy and very weak in Catalonia as traditionally they`ve worked with right - wing Catalanist parties before they started pushing for independence in the last few years ) and Ciudadanos ( founded in Catalonia and most - voted party last December in Catalonia ) are totally against break up of Spain . The two other main parties are socialist party ( Sanchez`s party ) which historically is strong in Catalonia especially in areas where people moved from other regions of Spain in last 50 years in search of work and Podemos ( using different names in different parts of Spain and is further left ) . The socialist party is against Catalan independence and Podemos officially too though they tend to be less vociferous about defending unity in case it upsets parts of their support in Catalonia and other parts of Spain . Parts of Podemos might support a referendum but would probably try to delay it till result was obvious . Change of president shouldn`t change Catalan situation at all .

[IberianHibernian]

A good start would be releasing the political prisoners.I may be wrong but I don`t think any president in Spain has power to release any prisoners , independent judges take those decisions . Even if that`s not the case , Sanchez supported Rajoy`s party and very openly right from the start of the Catalan crisis and I haven`t read anything to suggest his party will change now . Noone really knows what will happen in Spain now but a general election before the end of the year is probably the most likely outcome . I don`t think Catalan situation will be affected by what has happened / will happen in central government - I would guess that Ciudadanos will win general election at end of this year and form a coalition with what`s left of PP thus leading to more money and attention for Catalonia . Very hard to predict what will happen in Catalonia or rest of Spain .

[IberianHibernian]

Rajoy has gone (a no confidence vote).
What now for Catalonia? Same old, same old?The change of president in Madrid has nothing to do with situation in Catalonia . Rajoy has gone because his party has been shown by courts ( same courts in some cases which have found strong evidence against Catalan politicians in various cases in attempted coup dètat and in financial mismanagement etc ) to have had a lot of corruption . There are many cases being investigated about the Pujol family which more or less controlled the Catalanist movement ( pushing for more autonomy etc while sending money to Andorra etc ) for decades so corruption seems to be a problem throughout Spanish politics especially where lots of public money is not controlled properly . Catalan independence movement is unlikely to benefit from accusations of corruption against politicians from rest of Spain since there have been numerous accusations of corruption in Catalonia . Worth remembering that Catalan independence movement is right wing based on poorer parts of Spain " stealing " from Catalonia .

[snooky]

The change of president in Madrid has nothing to do with situation in Catalonia . Rajoy has gone because his party has been shown by courts ( same courts in some cases which have found strong evidence against Catalan politicians in various cases in attempted coup dètat and in financial mismanagement etc ) to have had a lot of corruption . There are many cases being investigated about the Pujol family which more or less controlled the Catalanist movement ( pushing for more autonomy etc while sending money to Andorra etc ) for decades so corruption seems to be a problem throughout Spanish politics especially where lots of public money is not controlled properly . Catalan independence movement is unlikely to benefit from accusations of corruption against politicians from rest of Spain since there have been numerous accusations of corruption in Catalonia . Worth remembering that Catalan independence movement is right wing based on poorer parts of Spain " stealing " from Catalonia .

I've been told the same from friends who have family there. That being the case, the two Indies movements have some fundemental differences.

[JeMeSouviens]

I've been told the same from friends who have family there. That being the case, the two Indies movements have some fundemental differences.

The Catalan indy parties are centre right (PDeCat), left (ERC) and hard left (CUP).

The basis for the “stealing” argument is the widespread belief that Catalonia contributes well above the per-head Spanish average in taxes but receives below the per-head Spanish average in spending. I don’t know how true that is. Also it’s difficult to sell that on solidarity lines when other autonomous regions (the Basques) get a better deal and there are widespread tales of corruption and ridiculous infrastructure spending like high speed train lines ignoring Barcelona but going to rural parts of Spain and the famous airport where nobody lives.