Labour Party Leadership

[hibsbollah]

I like it when you post something like people shouldn't refer to Corbyn being disloyal, because, erm, well you haven't really given a reason :greengrin

He happily took all the trappings that went with being a member of a large, well-resourced party but turned his nose up at following the whip hundreds of times. It's all a bit self-serving and hypocritical really, isn't it?

You can't keep blaming the leadership challenge for the polls, it doesn't wash. If nothing else, there has been remarkable public unity since the last challenge. And while Corbyn won comfortably, both times, the fact remains that at both elections 40% of members didn't want him. Do you think that figure is higher or lower now?

My issue with him is he is simply not a leader.

You mentioned polls - you will know all the ones that specifically rate his competence as a leader, people's trust in him in a crisis etc etc. His figures are rank, aren't they? Not the figures of a man the country sees as a leader. You can't really blame anyone else for those.

This lack of leadership has been writ large over the last week, with the rather botched reboot where he couldn't manage to articulate the same clear message on pay from what he said in the morning to what he said in the afternoon.

Again though, as I've already said, it's on the NHS that his lack of leadership is weakest.

For the last seven days the NHS in England has dominated the domestic news. Dominated in terms of the existential crisis it faces. Yet the public statement that brought the focus, that really skewered the government was the British Red Cross calling it a 'humanitarian crisis'.

Corbyn didn't do anything at PMQs other than ride on the coattails of the Red Cross. They were the ones leading the opposition to the government, not the Leader of the Opposition.

It's stuff like that which highlights just how ineffectual he actually is.

You have said most of this already, and I have responded to most of it. Suffice it to say I think you will continue to filter out the positives and exacerbate the negatives, because it fits your conceptions. But pretending the Red Cross was in the dispatch box and not the Leader of the Opposition is a new one, I must admit.

[Mibbes Aye]

You have said most of this already, and I have responded to most of it. Suffice it to say I think you will continue to filter out the positives and exacerbate the negatives, because it fits your conceptions. But pretending the Red Cross was in the dispatch box and not the Leader of the Opposition is a new one, I must admit.

They were well ahead of him and set the narrative with the term 'humanitarian crisis'.

That became a clear message, communicated widely, and forced the government to respond.

That's what a competent leader could, should and would do.

[hibsbollah]

They were well ahead of him and set the narrative with the term 'humanitarian crisis'.

That became a clear message, communicated widely, and forced the government to respond.

That's what a competent leader could, should and would do.

He's been successfully targeting her on the NHS for months, here's a link from just one such occasion on 30/11.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/nov/30/may-and-corbyn-clash-over-nhs-and-social-care-funding-at-pmqs-video-highlights

The Red Cross statement was incendiary because it was the Red Cross making it, and rightly so. But the opposition has hardly been ignoring the crisis prior to this statement, quite the opposite.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tonight's Corbyn policy on the hoof is to throw poor old Kezia and her "new act of union" under a bus.

He might be a nice guy with some interesting ideas* but a leader? Not so much.


* much like poor old Kezia in fact, only with interesting ideas.

[steakbake]

Not that I think he's been given a fair crack,with a clearly biased media and a political class that have no time for even the slightest radicalism, it really is time for Corbyn to end this s**tshow.

Dugdale also woefully out of her depth - continually. Seems a decent enough person but Sturgeon and Davidson are miles ahead. She's no match for them.

[Hibbyradge]

Not that I think he's been given a fair crack,with a clearly biased media and a political class that have no time for even the slightest radicalism, it really is time for Corbyn to end this s**tshow.

Dugdale also woefully out of her depth - continually. Seems a decent enough person but Sturgeon and Davidson are miles ahead. She's no match for them.

He was never, ever going to get a fair crack at it. That's one of the reasons folk have been saying from the outset, that he's unelectable.

It's like being warned that you'll get soaked if you go out without a coat on, but you do so anyway and when you do get soaked, you say "I only got soaked because it was raining".

[hibsbollah]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tristram-hunt-tells-oxbridge-labour-students-that-the-top-1-per-cent-must-take-leadership-in-labour-a6717731.html

A great loss to the movement.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tristram-hunt-tells-oxbridge-labour-students-that-the-top-1-per-cent-must-take-leadership-in-labour-a6717731.html

A great loss to the movement.

The movement?

[hibsbollah]

The movement?

The Labour Movement? Google it if you're unfamiliar with the concept.

[Hibbyradge]

The Labour Movement? Google it if you're unfamiliar with the concept.

The movement these days, if it ever really existed, is going in entirely the opposite direction to the one that I used to pin my hopes upon, and thought I was part of, in the 70s and 80s.

The movement, in the way you revere it, doesnt exist.

[hibsbollah]

The movement these days, if it ever really existed, is going in entirely the opposite direction to the one that I used to pin my hopes upon, and thought I was part of, in the 70s and 80s.

The movement, in the way you revere it, doesnt exist.

It really does.

I don't 'revere' the labour movement, I'm just conscious of its existence. Maybe you mean 'define'.

[Hibbyradge]

I meant revere.

I used to revere it. I can still give a rousing rendiion of bandiera rossa la triumfera and a bunch of other ditties I used to think meant something.

Of course, it took 18 years for Tony Blair to give the Labour Party, and "the movement", any power or credibility.

The movement? is a valid question.

[hibsbollah]

I meant revere.

I used to revere it. I can still give a rousing rendiion of bandiera rossa la triumfera and a bunch of other ditties I used to think meant something.

Of course, it took 18 years for Tony Blair to give the Labour Party, and "the movement", any power or credibility.

The movement? is a valid question.

Tony Blair gave the labour movement 'credibility'?
An interesting point of view.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Tony Blair gave the labour movement 'credibility'?
An interesting point of view.


Blair hated the party he belonged to. It was bizarre; he was in the wrong party. He abolished clause four and refused to restore the rights working people had been stripped of during 18 years of Tory rule. He supported neoliberalism, PFI, illegal wars. Labour did some good things, such as minimum wage and working families tax credits, but it was tinkering at the edges and sowed the seeds of a terrible dilemma for Labour: eventually the traditional Labour vote saw the party wasn't interested in them, so peeled away; at the same time the traditional Tory voters who went for a change with New Labour returned back to their natural party. What looked like an impregnable centrist majority lost its identity and its support to the left and right. Ultimately, if you try to be all things to all men, you end up looking devoid of principles. It's going to be very difficult to Labour to restore itself in Scotland, and the north of England and South Wales are no longer rock solid.

[Hibbyradge]

Tony Blair gave the labour movement 'credibility'?
An interesting point of view.

3 election victories.

What a sell out.

[Hibbyradge]

Blair hated the party he belonged to. It was bizarre; he was in the wrong party. He abolished clause four and refused to restore the rights working people had been stripped of during 18 years of Tory rule. He supported neoliberalism, PFI, illegal wars. Labour did some good things, such as minimum wage and working families tax credits, but it was tinkering at the edges and sowed the seeds of a terrible dilemma for Labour: eventually the traditional Labour vote saw the party wasn't interested in them, so peeled away; at the same time the traditional Tory voters who went for a change with New Labour returned back to their natural party. What looked like an impregnable centrist majority lost its identity and its support to the left and right. Ultimately, if you try to be all things to all men, you end up looking devoid of principles. It's going to be very difficult to Labour to restore itself in Scotland, and the north of England and South Wales are no longer rock solid.

Tony Blair loves the Labour Party.

He achieved loads for the the poor and needy.

"Illegal wars" is a boat lod of pish phrase.

Bed time.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Tony Blair loves the Labour Party.

He achieved loads for the the poor and needy.

"Illegal wars" is a boat lod of pish phrase.

Bed time.

Is it? Over a million dead in Iraq for a war based upon a blatant lie of WMD and a fabricated dossier with claims of attacks within 45 minutes. No U.N. clearance for the war; it was illegal under international law. It isn't a load of pish to the countless families destroyed; it isn't a load of pish when it allowed ISIS to move into Iraq and destabilise the whole region.

What's this loads he achieved? Welfare 'reform' i.e. kicking the most needy off of the help they needed to survive, and calling it welfare to work. Inequality INCREASED under New Labour. I said they did some good things, but they harmed many of the poorest in the UK and across the middle east.

He will always be remembered for Iraq. The worst act of terrorism of the twenty-first century so far. He destroyed the credibility of the Labour Party; short term electoral success gave way to long term decline once the electorate saw the vacuous nature of the strategy. Being nicer Tories isn't going to inspire voters to support Labour.

[hibsbollah]

3 election victories.

What a sell out.

The Labour movement delivered universal suffrage, votes for women, health and safety at work acts and a number of things I've forgotten about so, even if you like Tony Blair, as you do, saying he 'legitimised the labour movement' is a bit silly.

[Hibbyradge]

I prefer Tony Blair to David Cameron or Theresa May.

You enjoy "the labour movement", whatever that means to you. 👍

I'll continue to despair that the Tories are more popular in Scotland than Labour, and that the f-wits in UKIP are being taken more seriously than Labour in England.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I prefer Tony Blair to David Cameron or Theresa May.

You enjoy "the labour movement", whatever that means to you. 👍

I'll continue to despair that the Tories are more popular in Scotland than Labour, and that the f-wits in UKIP are being taken more seriously than Labour in England.

That's like choosing between chlamydia and gonorrhea. I'd rather not sully myself with either :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

That's like choosing between chlamydia and gonorrhea. I'd rather not sully myself with either :greengrin

It'll be a long time before you're faced with such a dilemma again. You'll no doubt be pleased about that.

In the meantime, I hope the Tories take care of the poor and vulnerable.

Mon the Tories.

[hibsbollah]

It'll be a long time before you're faced with such a dilemma again. You'll no doubt be pleased about that.

In the meantime, I hope the Tories take care of the poor and vulnerable.

Mon the Tories.

You don't know what the labour movement is. You chuck around words like 'trot' as pejorative terms. I can't recall any post in which you've criticised Tory policies, or the Nats. But every day there's a new kick Corbyn post, as if we don't already know what you think about him.

Its hard to know when you're being sarcastic sometimes.

[Hibbyradge]

You don't know what the labour movement is. You chuck around words like 'trot' as pejorative terms. I can't recall any post in which you've criticised Tory policies, or the Nats. But every day there's a new kick Corbyn post, as if we don't already know what you think about him.

Its hard to know when you're being sarcastic sometimes.

Very good. I knw that the labour movement is going backwards with Corbyn at the helm. And even that direction isn't linear. He's all over the place.

When you, or anyone else starts a thread critisising Tory policies, let me know and I'll join in.

I live in England now so what the SNP are up to doesn't register quite as easily. However, Corbyn's incompetence hits me between the eyes every day.

Let's just leave it. We're never going to agree about politics.

Or malt whisky, as it turns out!

[heretoday]

I thought Corbyn made a good speech today at the Fabian Society. Interestingly, it was shown live on Sky News channel including part of the question/answer session afterwards.

The BBC, in contrast, had a smirking Gavin Esler talking to a political hack about how awful Corbyn is etc etc.

Who's the public service broadcaster now?

[marinello59]

I thought Corbyn made a good speech today at the Fabian Society. Interestingly, it was shown live on Sky News channel including part of the question/answer session afterwards.

The BBC, in contrast, had a smirking Gavin Esler talking to a political hack about how awful Corbyn is etc etc.

Who's the public service broadcaster now?

Is it the one that agrees with your own viewpoint? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Very good. I knw that the labour movement is going backwards with Corbyn at the helm. And even that direction isn't linear. He's all over the place.

When you, or anyone else starts a thread critisising Tory policies, let me know and I'll join in.

I live in England now so what the SNP are up to doesn't register quite as easily. However, Corbyn's incompetence hits me between the eyes every day.

Let's just leave it. We're never going to agree about politics.

Or malt whisky, as it turns out!

Fill yer boots:greengrin

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?317104-Tories

[Mibbes Aye]

I thought Corbyn made a good speech today at the Fabian Society. Interestingly, it was shown live on Sky News channel including part of the question/answer session afterwards.

The BBC, in contrast, had a smirking Gavin Esler talking to a political hack about how awful Corbyn is etc etc.

Who's the public service broadcaster now?

In fairness, Sky News has covered policy speeches live in full, for years and from both the two main parties. It's purely my opinion but I think they do it to a far greater extent than BBC, which makes me wonder whether the BBC are constrained in terms of balancing out airtime? Just a guess, I've never thought about it until now!

[Hibbyradge]

Fill yer boots:greengrin

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?317104-Tories

Seriously?

Which policies was that attacking?

You can do better than that.

[Hibbyradge]

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/43923/No+to+retreat+on+freedom+of+movement

[Mibbes Aye]

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/43923/No+to+retreat+on+freedom+of+movement

It's like it's meant to be The Onion but just without any humour and lots of self-contradiction :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Seriously?

Which policies was that attacking?

You can do better than that.

It's a thread to attack the Tories, which you asked for:wink: It's been their for a while now, but Corbyn is in your cross hairs, and theirs no shifting you.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

It's a thread to attack the Tories, which you asked for:wink: It's been their for a while now, but Corbyn is in your cross hairs, and theirs no shifting you.:greengrin

Read my post again.

I asked for a thread attacking their policies. You even highlighted that request. :wink:

I'll shift my position regarding Corbyn when he becomes credible with the electorate.

FFS, Labour are even behind on the NHS!

On who would do a better job at managing the NHS this winter:
T. May & the Tories: 43%
J. Corbyn & Labour: 31%
(via ComRes / 11 - 13 Jan)

[Colr]

Read my post again.

I asked for a thread attacking their policies. You even highlighted that request. :wink:

I'll shift my position regarding Corbyn when he becomes credible with the electorate.

FFS, Labour are even behind on the NHS!

On who would do a better job at managing the NHS this winter:
T. May & the Tories: 43%
J. Corbyn & Labour: 31%
(via ComRes / 11 - 13 Jan)

Christ on a bike!!

[Mr Grieves]

Read my post again.

I asked for a thread attacking their policies. You even highlighted that request. :wink:

I'll shift my position regarding Corbyn when he becomes credible with the electorate.

FFS, Labour are even behind on the NHS!

On who would do a better job at managing the NHS this winter:
T. May & the Tories: 43%
J. Corbyn & Labour: 31%
(via ComRes / 11 - 13 Jan)

Not completely correct, the mention of Corbyn in the question appears to have had an effect :wink:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/820335121408688128

"Note that poll prompts May and Corbyn in question.
Latest YouGov (04/01) which doesn't include the leaders in the Q, has it Lab 28, Con 20."

[Hibbyradge]

Not completely correct, the mention of Corbyn in the question appears to have had an effect :wink:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/820335121408688128

"Note that poll prompts May and Corbyn in question.
Latest YouGov (04/01) which doesn't include the leaders in the Q, has it Lab 28, Con 20."

Yes, that's my point. Thank you.

Corbyn is toxic.

Edit: Mind you 28 - 20 is poor. Labour should constantly be much higher.

[hibsbollah]

Yes, that's my point. Thank you.

Corbyn is toxic.

Edit: Mind you 28 - 20 is poor. Labour should constantly be much higher.

I think we're all aware that this is your 'point'. I think its gone well beyond mere repetition.

[Hibbyradge]

I think we're all aware that this is your 'point'. I think its gone well beyond mere repetition.

Oh, I do hope you're not trying to silence a dissenting voice . . .

You may not like it, but I'll make my points about the Labour Party leadership on a thread called "Labour Party Leadership" as often as I see fit, thank you.

Next thing you'll be telling folk to stop slagging the Yams because it's gone beyond repitition.

[hibsbollah]

Oh, I do hope you're not trying to silence a dissenting voice . . .

You may not like it, but I'll make my points about the Labour Party leadership on a thread called "Labour Party Leadership" as often as I see fit, thank you.

Next thing you'll be telling folk to stop slagging the Yams because it's gone beyond repitition.

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”

[Mibbes Aye]

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”

How about answering the point?

The public trust the Tories more than Corbyn on the NHS!

How the hell did it come to this?!

[hibsbollah]

How about answering the point?

The public trust the Tories more than Corbyn on the NHS!

How the hell did it come to this?!


Come to what? that political debate has been reduced to quoting opinion polls three years prior to a general election as if that's all that matters?

[Hibbyradge]

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”

Well, if my remarks about Corbyn's incompetence help get rid of them, I'll be very happy.

[Hibbyradge]

Come to what? that political debate has been reduced to quoting opinion polls three years prior to a general election as if that's all that matters?

You've repeated that line a few times, by the way. :wink:

Labour should constantly get NHS approval ratings north of 60%. They're now behind the Tories. That's what it's come to.

If the Hibs manager was performing as poorly as Corbyn, you wouldn't be stubbornly supporting him in the hope that something unknown, and unlikely, might happen to reverse his fortunes.

[Mibbes Aye]

Come to what? that political debate has been reduced to quoting opinion polls three years prior to a general election as if that's all that matters?

You can't answer, can you?

[hibsbollah]

You can't answer, can you?

Yes, that's right. You've won the argument. Corbyn is a cock.

[hibsbollah]

You've repeated that line a few times, by the way. :wink:

Labour should constantly get NHS approval ratings north of 60%. They're now behind the Tories. That's what it's come to.

If the Hibs manager was performing as poorly as Corbyn, you wouldn't be stubbornly supporting him in the hope that something unknown, and unlikely, might happen to reverse his fortunes.

The Hibs manager as Labour party leader analogy only works if you ignore the fact that in UK politics what happens on the night of the general election is in fact, all that matters. Hibs season, surprisingly enough, is a different thing. One would think that after Brexit, Trump, and Corbyns 100/1 leadership victory
people would be a tiny bit sceptical of extrapolating future events based on political polling.

But Im repeating myself. I trust everyone can make up their own minds.

[marinello59]

Yes, that's right. You've won the argument. Corbyn is a cock.
:faf:

[Hibbyradge]

The Hibs manager as Labour party leader analogy only works if you ignore the fact that in UK politics what happens on the night of the general election is in fact, all that matters. Hibs season, surprisingly enough, is a different thing. One would think that after Brexit, Trump, and Corbyns 100/1 leadership victory
people would be a tiny bit sceptical of extrapolating future events based on political polling.

But Im repeating myself. I trust everyone can make up their own minds.

Ok. We're 3 years away fron the GE, unless May finds a way to call one in the next couple of months.

When should we start worrying?

Or are the polls so unreliable that a 8 - 14 points deficit might be recoverable "on the night"?

[hibsbollah]

Ok. We're 3 years away fron the GE, unless May finds a way to call one in the next couple of months.

When should we start worrying?

Or are the polls so unreliable that a 8 - 14 points deficit might be recoverable "on the night"?

A five point deficit is probably recoverable on the night. Anything above that would be highly unlikely. But it's happened before.

And assuming you actually want Labour under Corbyn to win an election, you'd probably worry if there was no improvement in voting intention polling with 9 months to go. Although of course seismic events like scandal, war, recession, financial shock can change public opinion quite quickly.

[Hibbyradge]

Although of course seismic events like war, recession, financial shock will change all that.

Here's hoping, eh?

[RyeSloan]

The poorest don't earn enough to pay income tax, or at least only pay little, so that accounts for that. But why are the richest 20% of earners only paying 23.5% of their income in tax, when their earnings have rocketed in the last 35 years? The higher up the earnings scale, the faster their income has grown. What matters is inequality and the proportion of earnings each individual is contributing based upon their earnings. Inequality is growing all the time, and the poor are actually getting poorer again. IMHO, income tax is far too low at the top, and it's totally unacceptable in a society that is being severely damaged by the austerity agenda which has produced an explosion in homelessness, food banks and a crisis in the NHS. You cannot have equality of opportunity in a vastly unequal society, and the UK is one of the most unequal societies in the developed world. When you have a top 1% earning tens of millions per year and employing lawyers and accountants to pay only a fraction of the 45% top rate, something is wrong. I don't see how anyone who earns a seven figure salary every year could object a top marginal income tax rate of 80% or so. They wouldn't pay it on all their earnings but only on earnings beyond that required for a fantastic lifestyle. Half the world's population live on $1.50 per day; let's be reasonable here. This is a man made system of allocation of resources, which can be changed in favour of a more equitable distribution. We don't have to accept there's no alternative to mass poverty and great inequality.

Sorry not had time to reply to this and as I thought we are definitely not going to agree but none the less I feel the need to reply as some of what you have said is simply incorrect. There is some very interesting stuff published by the IFS, DWP, OBR etc on this and some of it is conveniently summaried in the IFS Living Standards, Poverty and Inequality documentation.

Two key points that you make that are not accurate are as follows:

You say "Inequality is growing all the time" - This is simply not true. Quite simply inequality is at very similar levels to the last 2 or 3 decades and in fact the ratio between incomes at the 90th and 10th percentiles in Great Britain fell from 4.4 to 3.9 between 1990 and 2014–15.

You also add "and the poor are not actually getting poorer again". - Again this is simply not true. Between 2011–12 and 2014–15, real individual weekly earnings grew by 4.4% at the 10th percentile. Over the period since 2007–08, the fall in inequality is even larger: incomes grew by 7.7% at the 10th percentile and by 2.2% at the median, and were roughly unchanged at the 90th percentile.

You then say " UK is one of the most unequal societies in the developed world"...a very dramatic statement that really doesn't hold true. According to the equality trust on a wealth measure it has a GINI of 73.2% compared to an OECD average of 72.9% and sits roughly in the middle. On an income measure it is not as good and is 7th out of 30 but hardly meeting the expectations of your statement.

I don't argue that the top 1% have too much and that their share of the pie seems to be ever increasing so measures should be considered to moderate that but none the less you conflate the existence of food banks with non stop growing inequality and a crisis in the NHS and then demand 80% tax rates to resolve it. But in reality inequality is not growing all the time at all and correlation is not causation.

That said I agree whole heartedly with your statement "We don't have to accept there's no alternative to mass poverty and great inequality"...we certainly do not. However expecting punitive tax rates to work (there is a limit to the total tax that an economy can produce and consensus suggests the UK is already at about that level) and even if they did somehow generate great floods of cash then trusting the state to actually be able to effectively re-distribute the wealth to rid us of poverty and inequality permanently is, to me at least, little more than complete pie in the sky.

[hibsbollah]

Sorry not had time to reply to this and as I thought we are definitely not going to agree but none the less I feel the need to reply as some of what you have said is simply incorrect. There is some very interesting stuff published by the IFS, DWP, OBR etc on this and some of it is conveniently summaried in the IFS Living Standards, Poverty and Inequality documentation.

Two key points that you make that are not accurate are as follows:

You say "Inequality is growing all the time" - This is simply not true. Quite simply inequality is at very similar levels to the last 2 or 3 decades and in fact the ratio between incomes at the 90th and 10th percentiles in Great Britain fell from 4.4 to 3.9 between 1990 and 2014–15.

You also add "and the poor are not actually getting poorer again". - Again this is simply not true. Between 2011–12 and 2014–15, real individual weekly earnings grew by 4.4% at the 10th percentile. Over the period since 2007–08, the fall in inequality is even larger: incomes grew by 7.7% at the 10th percentile and by 2.2% at the median, and were roughly unchanged at the 90th percentile.

You then say " UK is one of the most unequal societies in the developed world"...a very dramatic statement that really doesn't hold true. According to the equality trust on a wealth measure it has a GINI of 73.2% compared to an OECD average of 72.9% and sits roughly in the middle. On an income measure it is not as good and is 7th out of 30 but hardly meeting the expectations of your statement.

I don't argue that the top 1% have too much and that their share of the pie seems to be ever increasing so measures should be considered to moderate that but none the less you conflate the existence of food banks with non stop growing inequality and a crisis in the NHS and then demand 80% tax rates to resolve it. But in reality inequality is not growing all the time at all and correlation is not causation.

That said I agree whole heartedly with your statement "We don't have to accept there's no alternative to mass poverty and great inequality"...we certainly do not. However expecting punitive tax rates to work (there is a limit to the total tax that an economy can produce and consensus suggests the UK is already at about that level) and even if they did somehow generate great floods of cash then trusting the state to actually be able to effectively re-distribute the wealth to rid us of poverty and inequality permanently is, to me at least, little more than complete pie in the sky.

The UK is undoubtedly one of the developed worlds most unequal societies, the data is very clear. 2009 The Spirit Level is the book to read for equality indicators, and I wont attempt to post the reams of data but for the vast majority of measurements (health, education, income, social mobility, crime) There is USA, UK, Portugal, Israel New Zealand at one end of the scale and Sweden, Japan, Netherlands, Finland Norway Denmark on the other.

Equality doesn't happen by accident, its a result of social policy. There are two kinds of capitalism on offer to policy makers; the anglo saxon model of unfettered free market, with low tax, low investment and high levels of inequality and the 'northern European model' of mixed private and public ownership high taxation, high investment and low levels of inequality. Politicians pretend we can have both things but we simply can't.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sorry not had time to reply to this and as I thought we are definitely not going to agree but none the less I feel the need to reply as some of what you have said is simply incorrect. There is some very interesting stuff published by the IFS, DWP, OBR etc on this and some of it is conveniently summaried in the IFS Living Standards, Poverty and Inequality documentation.

Two key points that you make that are not accurate are as follows:

You say "Inequality is growing all the time" - This is simply not true. Quite simply inequality is at very similar levels to the last 2 or 3 decades and in fact the ratio between incomes at the 90th and 10th percentiles in Great Britain fell from 4.4 to 3.9 between 1990 and 2014–15.

You also add "and the poor are not actually getting poorer again". - Again this is simply not true. Between 2011–12 and 2014–15, real individual weekly earnings grew by 4.4% at the 10th percentile. Over the period since 2007–08, the fall in inequality is even larger: incomes grew by 7.7% at the 10th percentile and by 2.2% at the median, and were roughly unchanged at the 90th percentile.

You then say " UK is one of the most unequal societies in the developed world"...a very dramatic statement that really doesn't hold true. According to the equality trust on a wealth measure it has a GINI of 73.2% compared to an OECD average of 72.9% and sits roughly in the middle. On an income measure it is not as good and is 7th out of 30 but hardly meeting the expectations of your statement.

I don't argue that the top 1% have too much and that their share of the pie seems to be ever increasing so measures should be considered to moderate that but none the less you conflate the existence of food banks with non stop growing inequality and a crisis in the NHS and then demand 80% tax rates to resolve it. But in reality inequality is not growing all the time at all and correlation is not causation.

That said I agree whole heartedly with your statement "We don't have to accept there's no alternative to mass poverty and great inequality"...we certainly do not. However expecting punitive tax rates to work (there is a limit to the total tax that an economy can produce and consensus suggests the UK is already at about that level) and even if they did somehow generate great floods of cash then trusting the state to actually be able to effectively re-distribute the wealth to rid us of poverty and inequality permanently is, to me at least, little more than complete pie in the sky.

The government's own figures say inequality has increased by 42 per cent in the past four decades - since 1977

Of the 34 OECD (developed) countries the UK is seventh most unequal

According to Poverty.org, the poorest the poorest ten per cent of the population saw their net income fall by 12 per cent between 1999 and 2009, and that's before the financial crisis! Whilst the working poor were given much needed help with Working Families Tax Credits, New Labour returned to the dichotomy of the deserving and undeserving poor, which meant the very poorest, those on benefits, got nothing - no real terms increase in welfare payments. The poor are getting poorer; the very poorest became even poorer under a Labour government, which is a disgrace. Since then the Tory-Lib coalition and the Tories have slashed welfare, meaning the gap is growing even faster.

http://poverty.org.uk/09/a.png

Since the crash of 2008, the huge cuts in spending have taken the very poorest into even further poverty.

40 per cent of all new income between 2000 and 2010 went to the richest 10 per cent

Gini coefficient up until 2009 - BEFORE the crisis which has done so much damage to the poorest. Nevertheless it's a sorry story: inequality rising under a New Labour government.




http://poverty.org.uk/09/f.png


Inequality widening all the time, with the very poorest becoming worse off. This trend is now moving up the income scale, as the cuts since 2010 have also hit those in work, e.g. tax credits claimants.

[Hibbyradge]

I can't even imagine Theresa May coming out with something like this. It's incompetence at best.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/02/jeremy-corbyn-under-fire-for-saying-people-choose-to-be-gay-6423405/

[hibsbollah]

Youre right, our glorious leader Theresa May has been the very epitome of competence of late :faf:

Come on now.

[Hibbyradge]

Youre right, our glorious leader Theresa May has been the very epitome of competence of late :faf:

Come on now.

I want May to be incompetent so she gets found out asap, but I don't think she would say sonething as horrific as Corbyn did. Neither would Cameron before her.

But for a Labour leader to say such a thing? What would you call it if not incompetent? Homophobic? :dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

I want May to be incompetent so she gets found out asap, but I don't think she would say sonething as horrific as Corbyn did. Neither would Cameron before her.

But for a Labour leader to say such a thing? What would you call it if not incompetent? Homophobic? :dunno:
To be fair, it was clarified later. They don't choose to be gay, they choose to live their lives in a certain way. I get that.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

To be fair, it was clarified later. They don't choose to be gay, they choose to live their lives in a certain way. I get that.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Sorry, but I don't choose to live my life in a certain way. Neither do you and neither do LGBT people.

What's the choice?

Imagine if Theresa May did come out with that and then "clarified it" with that twaddle.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry, but I don't choose to live my life in a certain way. Neither do you and neither do LGBT people.

What's the choice?
As I interpret it, it's about the choice between living as an out gay man or woman, or staying in the closet.

Incidentally, why did you assume that I wasn't LGBT?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Sir David Gray]

If a Conservative Prime Minister had come out with a statement like that, this thread would already be on its 10th page by now.

[Hibbyradge]

As I interpret it, it's about the choice between living as an out gay man or woman, or staying in the closet.

Incidentally, why did you assume that I wasn't LGBT?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Your use of the pronoun "they" suggested that you were not part of that community.

[Hibbyradge]

If a Conservative Prime Minister had come out with a statement like that, this thread would already be on its 10th page by now.

If anyone in the Holy Ground had said it . . .

[CropleyWasGod]

Your use of the pronoun "they" suggested that you were not part of that community.
I was paraphrasing what was said in the article. Probably should have lifted the quote directly....but cba getting my laptop out 😁

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

I was paraphrasing what was said in the article. Probably should have lifted the quote directly....but cba getting my laptop out 😁

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

The art of internet communication. 😀

I don't for a second think Corbyn is homophobic. Oh jeez I hope he's not.

He's just friggin hopeless.

[CropleyWasGod]

The art of internet communication. 😀

I don't for a second think Corbyn is homophobic. Oh jeez I hope he's not.

He's just friggin hopeless.
You really think so?[emoji14]

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

You really think so?[emoji14]

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I may have mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.

[lord bunberry]

Is this the most pathetic point scoring thread ever started on hibs.net? The op has long since made his views clear on this subject. Give it a rest and try and be more productive.
From what I gather from previous posts the op was a socialist activist in the late 70s early 80s.
Talk about preaching to the used to be converted.
Micheal foot used to attract big crowds to rallies including the op, but he now wants to tell us that socialism doesn't work.

[calumhibee1]

Sorry, but I don't choose to live my life in a certain way. Neither do you and neither do LGBT people.

What's the choice?

Imagine if Theresa May did come out with that and then "clarified it" with that twaddle.

You don't choose what sexuality you are and it is a bad comment to make. But everyone chooses in what way to live their life IMO.

[hibsbollah]

You don't choose what sexuality you are and it is a bad comment to make. But everyone chooses in what way to live their life IMO.
:agree:
In the context of the speech he obviously meant The choice to be free and open about one's sexuality, not the choice about whether to be biologically gay or not.

[RyeSloan]

:agree:
In the context of the speech he obviously meant The choice to be free and open about one's sexuality, not the choice about whether to be biologically gay or not.

Poor choice of words but really....the guy was giving a speech supporting the LGBT community, for him then to be 'under fire' for how one word was interpreted is just daft and not even worth a thread on here!

[Jim44]

:agree:
In the context of the speech he obviously meant The choice to be free and open about one's sexuality, not the choice about whether to be biologically gay or not.


Poor choice of words but really....the guy was giving a speech supporting the LGBT community, for him then to be 'under fire' for how one word was interpreted is just daft and not even worth a thread on here!

I think Hibsbollah's interpretation is correct. But, bottom line, it showed a lack of thoroughness in speech preparation by Corbyn or his speechwriter.

[Hibbyradge]

Is this the most pathetic point scoring thread ever started on hibs.net? The op has long since made his views clear on this subject. Give it a rest and try and be more productive.
From what I gather from previous posts the op was a socialist activist in the late 70s early 80s.
Talk about preaching to the used to be converted.
Micheal foot used to attract big crowds to rallies including the op, but he now wants to tell us that socialism doesn't work.

Foot, like Corbyn, did get big crowds at rallies. They translated into the biggest Conservative victory at the 1983 general election, giving Thatcher the platform for everything she did to the miners and the TU movement.

I totally agree, we should look back and learn from Michael Foot's disastrous time as leader, but instead, we're repeating the same stupid mistakes in the naive hope that something different might happen this time. :crazy:

What Corbyn meant to say, isn't the issue. It's his inability to do so. He should be able to communicate succinctly without his cronies having to come out afterwards to mitigate his drivel.

I won't be giving my opposition to Corbyn as leader a rest any time soon. He's destroying the Labour Party, and sitting quietly watching him do it, is about as unproductive as it can get. The sooner he's gone the better.

[Hibbyradge]

I think Hibsbollah's interpretation is correct. But, bottom line, it showed a lack of thoroughness in speech preparation by Corbyn or his speechwriter.

Exactly.

"What I meant to say" isn't good enough from any public figure, never mind a leader.

[hibsbollah]

Is there any chance of getting this thread merged into the other Labour Leadership thread? There are at least six or seven similar threads on the same subject over the last few months as well...

[allmodcons]

Poor choice of words but really....the guy was giving a speech supporting the LGBT community, for him then to be 'under fire' for how one word was interpreted is just daft and not even worth a thread on here!

Agree with this. For me this is just another opportunity of some lowlife journalist having a pop at Corbyn.

FFS he was speaking in support of the LGBT community.

[Colr]

I can't even imagine Theresa May coming out with something like this. It's incompetence at best.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/02/jeremy-corbyn-under-fire-for-saying-people-choose-to-be-gay-6423405/

Its more than a bit ****ey to pick up a turn of phrase whilst ignoring the fact that his speech was one of solidarity with LGBT people.

I harbour a lot of resentment toward his party at the moment but this is nonsense.

[judas]

I want May to be incompetent so she gets found out asap, but I don't think she would say sonething as horrific as Corbyn did. Neither would Cameron before her.

But for a Labour leader to say such a thing? What would you call it if not incompetent? Homophobic? :dunno:


Cameron referred to migrants as 'swarms' and demeaned women with his 'calm down dear' retort.

May hasn't made any faux paus yet, but I have a feeling we wont have to wait long.

[Hibbyradge]

May hasn't made any faux paus yet, but I have a feeling we wont have to wait long.

I'm sure May will get her comeuppance, and I hope it's soon, but it's a bit unfair to condemn her for something you admit she hasn't done.

Corbyn, on the other hand, goes from gaffe to gaffe.

I see this thread has been buried at Bollah's request. If you can't silence the pesky opposition, at least keep them out of sight. The Donald would be proud. :wink:

Meanwhile, Corbyn continues to help the right wing of the Tory party take us out of the EU, at a time that soiidarity with Europe against Trump would seem completely desireable.

Presumably he knows that Trump will turn the UK into a sweatshop for America First, so he must be looking forward to being able to protest from the sidelines in that very scary angry voice of his, whilst hoping that the "movement" and the revolution builds.

Irresponsible buffoon.

[Hibbyradge]

Brinsworth & Catcliffe (Rotherham) result:

LDEM: 66.0% (+50.4)
LAB: 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 12.8% (-16.4)
CON: 3.0% (-8.8)
GRN: 1.0% (+1.0)

[northstandhibby]

Brinsworth & Catcliffe (Rotherham) result:

LDEM: 66.0% (+50.4)
LAB: 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 12.8% (-16.4)
CON: 3.0% (-8.8)
GRN: 1.0% (+1.0)

Good to see the pro EU lib dem councilor's gain. Also great to see the ridiculous Farage's ukip on the way down and the extreme right wing tories the gormless May leads down too.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Brinsworth & Catcliffe (Rotherham) result:

LDEM: 66.0% (+50.4)
LAB: 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 12.8% (-16.4)
CON: 3.0% (-8.8)
GRN: 1.0% (+1.0)

Dinington (Rotherham) result on the same night.

Labour 670 [36.1%; +3.9%]
UKIP 303 [16.3%; -14.1%]
Conservative 238 [12.8%;+12.8%]
Independent 232 [12.5%; -12.8%]
Independent 180 [9.7%; +9.7%]
Independent 81 [4.4%; +4.4%]
Green 78 [4.2%; -7.9%]
LD Stephen Thornley 75 [4.0%;+4.0%]
Majority 367
Labour gain from UKIP :aok:

[Beefster]

Some doubts over Abbott's loyalty...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/04/diane-abbott-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-loyalty-vote-article-50

[hibsbollah]

Dinington (Rotherham) result on the same night.

Labour 670 [36.1%; +3.9%]
UKIP 303 [16.3%; -14.1%]
Conservative 238 [12.8%;+12.8%]
Independent 232 [12.5%; -12.8%]
Independent 180 [9.7%; +9.7%]
Independent 81 [4.4%; +4.4%]
Green 78 [4.2%; -7.9%]
LD Stephen Thornley 75 [4.0%;+4.0%]
Majority 367
Labour gain from UKIP :aok:


:faf: shh, dont spoil the narrative.

[Hibbyradge]

:faf: shh, dont spoil the narrative.

:ostrich:

You've already made your excuses for Copeland and Stoke. What's that narrative about?

I'll answer for you. Every Labour hold or gain will be greeted as proof positive that Jezza's the man. But all the losses, and there will be many, will be blamed on someone else.

Labour are well behind in the polls at time that a clueless Tory party are about to unleash a scary, uncertain and quite probably calamitous, future upon the country in the shape of Brexit.

Corbyn's shrewd political response? Impose a 3 line whip to help them do it.

They have also been dumped into third place by the Tories in Scotland, FFS. At least the jambo MP had the balls to defy the clown, but Ronaldo's lot will be pouring resources into Ed South to take the seat from him.

Spoil the narative? :faf:

[ronaldo7]

:ostrich:

You've already made your excuses for Copeland and Stoke. What's that narrative about?

I'll answer for you. Every Labour hold or gain will be greeted as proof positive that Jezza's the man. But all the losses, and there will be many, will be blamed on someone else.

Labour are well behind in the polls at time that a clueless Tory party are about to unleash a scary, uncertain and quite probably calamitous, future upon the country in the shape of Brexit.

Corbyn's shrewd political response? Impose a 3 line whip to help them do it.

They have also been dumped into third place by the Tories in Scotland, FFS. At least the jambo MP had the balls to defy the clown, but Ronaldo's lot will be pouring resources into Ed South to take the seat from him.

Spoil the narative? :faf:

Totally. :wink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-33615619

[hibsbollah]

:ostrich:

You've already made your excuses for Copeland and Stoke. What's that narrative about?

I'll answer for you. Every Labour hold or gain will be greeted as proof positive that Jezza's the man. But all the losses, and there will be many, will be blamed on someone else.

Labour are well behind in the polls at time that a clueless Tory party are about to unleash a scary, uncertain and quite probably calamitous, future upon the country in the shape of Brexit.

Corbyn's shrewd political response? Impose a 3 line whip to help them do it.

They have also been dumped into third place by the Tories in Scotland, FFS. At least the jambo MP had the balls to defy the clown, but Ronaldo's lot will be pouring resources into Ed South to take the seat from him.

Spoil the narative? :faf:

On a night when there were two elections in the same town, involving swings of a few hundred people, one a success for Labour and one a failure for Labour, you referenced one and not the other.

There's nothing else to say really.

[Hibbyradge]

On a night when there were two elections in the same town, involving swings of a few hundred people, one a success for Labour and one a failure for Labour, you referenced one and not the other.

There's nothing else to say really.

It was brought to my attention because Labour lost a 5000 majority in the seat I highlighted.

In fact, there were 3 by elections on Thursday.
Dinnington (Rotherham):

Labour gain from UKIP.
Labour 36.1% (+15.5)
UKIP 16.3 (-3.1)
Conservative 12.8 (+2.8)
Independent 12.5 (-3.7)
Independent 9.7 (-3.7)
Independent 4.4 (+4.4)
Green 4.2 (-3.5)
Liberal Democrat 4.0 (+4.0)

Brinsworth & Catcliffe (Rotherham):

Liberal Democrat gain from Labour.
Liberal Democrat: 66.0% (+50.4)
Labour: 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 12.8% (-16.4)
Conservative: 3.0% (-8.8)
Green: 1.0% (+1.0)

Town (East Staffordshire):

Conservative hold.
Conservative: 52.3% (-0.3)
Labour: 29.9% (-3.0)
UKIP: 17.8% (+17.8)
The Greens did not stand a candidate at this by-election.

That's the full picture.

[northstandhibby]

It was brought to my attention because Labour lost a 5000 majority in the seat I highlighted.

In fact, there were 3 by elections on Thursday.
Dinnington (Rotherham):

Labour gain from UKIP.
Labour 36.1% (+15.5)
UKIP 16.3 (-3.1)
Conservative 12.8 (+2.8)
Independent 12.5 (-3.7)
Independent 9.7 (-3.7)
Independent 4.4 (+4.4)
Green 4.2 (-3.5)
Liberal Democrat 4.0 (+4.0)

Brinsworth & Catcliffe (Rotherham):

Liberal Democrat gain from Labour.
Liberal Democrat: 66.0% (+50.4)
Labour: 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 12.8% (-16.4)
Conservative: 3.0% (-8.8)
Green: 1.0% (+1.0)

Town (East Staffordshire):

Conservative hold.
Conservative: 52.3% (-0.3)
Labour: 29.9% (-3.0)
UKIP: 17.8% (+17.8)
The Greens did not stand a candidate at this by-election.

That's the full picture.

The really good aspect of these by elections is it would appear the Ukip bubble is bursting post Brexit. I assume the +17.8% they obtained in East Staffordshire was because of putting up a first time candidate for that borough and of which 17.8% is a pretty abysmal share of the voting cast.

I'm hoping folk have now realised Ukip are a very nasty bunch of BNP types and that they Ukip are to very soon disappear back down into the sewers they managed to escape from.

glory glory

[Hibbyradge]

The really good aspect of these by elections is it would appear the Ukip bubble is bursting post Brexit. I assume the +17.8% they obtained in East Staffordshire was because of putting up a first time candidate for that borough and of which 17.8% is a pretty abysmal share of the voting cast.

I'm hoping folk have now realised Ukip are a very nasty bunch of BNP types and that they Ukip are to very soon disappear back down into the sewers they managed to escape from.

glory glory

That would be nice, but I tend to think thst you're a tad optimistic.

UK polling report has them at 14% nationally , which is as high as they've been.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2

[Beefster]

"Real fight starts now" says Corbyn, almost a year after the referendum and right after the Tories cruised the Article 50 bill through the Commons.

As someone much wittier than I said, it's a bit like the Black Knight losing all his limbs and saying "Alright, we'll call it a draw".

[Moulin Yarns]

"Real fight starts now" says Corbyn, almost a year after the referendum and right after the Tories cruised the Article 50 bill through the Commons.

As someone much wittier than I said, it's a bit like the Black Knight losing all his limbs and saying "Alright, we'll call it a draw".


Leanne Wood responded with this


The fight should've started on June 24th & it should've included not giving the Tories a license to do as they please, letting people down.

[hibsbollah]

"Real fight starts now" says Corbyn, almost a year after the referendum and right after the Tories cruised the Article 50 bill through the Commons.

As someone much wittier than I said, it's a bit like the Black Knight losing all his limbs and saying "Alright, we'll call it a draw".

Its all rhetoric isn't it? And he's sort of right, there will be bigger squabbles over the months and years over the actual terms of leaving. But it was a stupid tactical decision to back article 50, he should have held up his hands and said 'the Party is divided on this, the country is divided, so my MPs have a free vote and should balance their personal beliefs with how their constituents voted'. The way he's done it he's managed to come across as weak AND dictatorial at the same time.

[Hibbyradge]

Its all rhetoric isn't it? And he's sort of right, there will be bigger squabbles over the months and years over the actual terms of leaving. But it was a stupid tactical decision to back article 50, he should have held up his hands and said 'the Party is divided on this, the country is divided, so my MPs have a free vote and should balance their personal beliefs with how their constituents voted'. The way he's done it he's managed to come across as weak AND dictatorial at the same time.

Yrs, he's made a real mess of the whole issue. His statement, rhetoric or not, will only be well received by his staunchest of supporters. He will look ridiculous to everyone else.

He's in his comfort zone again, though.

On the sidelines protesting.

Except this time he's protesting against a situation to which he's complicit.

Remember, he was accused of betraying the remain campaign at the time by going on holiday and only giving half hearted support. He was the only person to argue that we shoukd trigger 50 immediately on June 24. :crazy:

Labour should have opposed the triggering of Article 50 from the start. Party policy points in that direction.

If they didn't have the balls to do that, they should have supported a second referendum.

Now, they're more irrelevant than ever.

It may not be too late. If negotiations aren't going "well", parliament could still decide to go to the country.

A new, credible, Labour leader would be a prerequisite, however.

[hibsbollah]

Yrs, he's made a real mess of the whole issue. His statement, rhetoric or not, will only be well received by his staunchest of supporters. He will look ridiculous to everyone else.

He's in his comfort zone again, though.

On the sidelines protesting.

Except this time he's protesting against a situation to which he's complicit.

Remember, he was accused of betraying the remain campaign at the time by going on holiday and only giving half hearted support. He was the only person to argue that we shoukd trigger 50 immediately on June 24. :crazy:

Labour should have opposed the triggering of Article 50 from the start. Party policy points in that direction.

If they didn't have the balls to do that, they should have supported a second referendum.

Now, they're more irrelevant than ever.

It may not be too late. If negotiations aren't going "well", parliament could still decide to go to the country.

A new, credible, Labour leader would be a prerequisite, however.

I don't think it will go down well with his 'staunchest supporters' at all. Assuming by staunchest you mean furthest left, the Left is as divided about Brexit as any other group, this issue doesn't go down straight ideological lines.

And of course I've already disputed the misinformation that he was somehow invisible during the campaign and therefore tacitly supporting Brexit. He was the most visible interviewed politician behind Boris and Farage during the campaign and sent emails to members pleading everyone to vote Remain three days before it. But reality and perception are far apart when it comes to Corbyn and the media.

I can only assume the three line whip was meant to somehow placate working class constituencies like Stoke-on-Trent and prove that Labour is 'listening to them', instead of making his case for what he believes in and try to persuade.

Which is fatally flawed logic, almost as if he was reading a guide to being a labour leader as authored by Gordon Brown.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't think it will go down well with his 'staunchest supporters' at all. Assuming by staunchest you mean furthest left, the Left is as divided about Brexit as any other group, this issue doesn't go down straight ideological lines.

And of course I've already disputed the misinformation that he was somehow invisible during the campaign and therefore tacitly supporting Brexit. He was the most visible interviewed politician behind Boris and Farage during the campaign and sent emails to members pleading everyone to vote Remain three days before it. But reality and perception are far apart when it comes to Corbyn and the media.

I can only assume the three line whip was meant to somehow placate working class constituencies like Stoke-on-Trent and prove that Labour is 'listening to them', instead of making his case for what he believes in and try to persuade.

Which is fatally flawed logic, almost as if he was reading a guide to being a labour leader as authored by Gordon Brown.

I said "staunchest of supporters". Like Diane Abbot who cited her loyalty to Corbyn as justification for voting to trigger 50 last night.

We're not going to agree about his contribution to the remain campaign. I heard his interviews and I was shocked at his lack of passion and direction. I genuinely thought he'd give his best shot, but he didn't. He talked more about what he didn't like about Europe than why it was good for the UK and why we should remain. That was not selective listening, please believe me.

While I agree that Corbyn's logic is flawed, he imposed the 3 line whip in order to ensure that Brexit happened, plain and simple. He's delighted we're out.

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/16699707_10212630053652705_967871943_n.jpg?oh=ce16 fbc1abce9bace9dce93d340dd921&oe=589EC78A

[hibsbollah]

I said "staunchest of supporters". Like Diane Abbot who cited her loyalty to Corbyn as justification for voting to trigger 50 last night.

We're not going to agree about his contribution to the remain campaign. I heard his interviews and I was shocked at his lack of passion and direction. I genuinely thought he'd give his best shot, but he didn't. He talked more about what he didn't like about Europe than why it was good for the UK and why we should remain. That was not selective listening, please believe me.

While I agree that Corbyn's logic is flawed, he imposed the 3 line whip in order to ensure that Brexit happened, plain and simple. He's delighted we're out.

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/16699707_10212630053652705_967871943_n.jpg?oh=ce16 fbc1abce9bace9dce93d340dd921&oe=589EC78A


We're 'out' anyway, whatever Labour do or Corbyn does is a distraction. It needs to be remembered that David Camerons miscalculation caused Brexit.

[northstandhibby]

We're 'out' anyway, whatever Labour do or Corbyn does is a distraction. It needs to be remembered that David Camerons miscalculation caused Brexit.

Some might say it was a miscalculation. Others might say it was a well constructed plan.

glory glory

[Hibbyradge]

We're 'out' anyway, whatever Labour do or Corbyn does is a distraction.

I still cling on to a tiny hope.

However, this is about the Labour leadership, not Brexit.

Corbyn continues to show himself as incompetent and unable to lead the left, never mind the party or the country, so the sooner he is replaced the better. I don't think it will be long now.


It needs to be remembered that David Camerons miscalculation caused Brexit.

Yes, that opened the door.

[Hibrandenburg]

We're 'out' anyway, whatever Labour do or Corbyn does is a distraction. It needs to be remembered that David Camerons miscalculation caused Brexit.

Now it is, yesterday we gave the Tories a blank cheque to carry out brexit how they see fit. Labour had the chance to fight for some comprises that would at least have had the backing of 48% of the UK electorate and they flunked it. How we leave the EU will be the foundations to how we move forward as a society and that's now in the hands of the Tories alone.

[ronaldo7]

In the spirit of balance and fairness. :wink:

Prescot east (Prescot toon council)

Greens 44.9% (+44.9)
Lib Dems 35.4% (+6.4)
Labour 19.7% (-51.3)

OOFT!

[lord bunberry]

In the spirit of balance and fairness. :wink:

Prescot east (Prescot toon council)

Greens 44.9% (+44.9)
Lib Dems 35.4% (+6.4)
Labour 19.7% (-51.3)

OOFT!
-51.3%!!!! Did the candidate stand outside the polling station and insult everyone's mothers as they went in?

[Moulin Yarns]

-51.3%!!!! Did the candidate stand outside the polling station and insult everyone's mothers as they went in?

The vacancy arose because the previous Labour Councillor refused to attend any Council meetings. Maybe more of a protest than anything else.

[lord bunberry]

The vacancy arose because the previous Labour Councillor refused to attend any Council meetings. Maybe more of a protest than anything else.
You would think that attending council meetings would be considered a minimum requirement.

[Hibbyradge]

You voted Corbyn twice, funking over the Labour Party, but were shocked to find out he's a bit sheet & anti-EU. Your next move:

A. Back to the greens!

B. See 'A'

C. See 'B'

D. See 'C'

[Moulin Yarns]

You would think that attending council meetings would be considered a minimum requirement.

It is a LEGAL requirement according to the Prescot Cooncil website

[Colr]

Good to see Clive Lewis considering a leadership bid!!

The former political correspondent for the BBC who was sacked for not knowing anything about politics!

They really do have an inexaustable supply of no hopers in Labour at the moment.

[lucky]

Good to see Clive Lewis considering a leadership bid!!

The former political correspondent for the BBC who was sacked for not knowing anything about politics!

They really do have an inexaustable supply of no hopers in Labour at the moment.

He actually said he was not interested in challenging for the leadership but don't let the truth get in the way off your story. You might want to consider a career in fake news at the s*n or the mail

[Colr]

He actually said he was not interested in challenging for the leadership but don't let the truth get in the way off your story. You might want to consider a career in fake news at the s*n or the mail

But that's not the truth, Poundshop Donald.

[lucky]

But that's not the truth, Poundshop Donald.

Really is that your response for posting lies. I think I'll just let you get on with it in your wee world. But just in case your interested in the truth;

“You can quote me on this. It is total bollocks,” he told the Eastern Daily Press. Any talk suggesting he was preparing to challenge Corbyn was part of a “game of fantasy politics in Westminster”, he added, and “nothing could be further from my mind”.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/11/clive-lewis-dismisses-rumours-of-corbyn-leadership-challenge?client=safari

[Colr]

Really is that your response for posting lies. I think I'll just let you get on with it in your wee world. But just in case your interested in the truth;

“You can quote me on this. It is total bollocks,” he told the Eastern Daily Press. Any talk suggesting he was preparing to challenge Corbyn was part of a “game of fantasy politics in Westminster”, he added, and “nothing could be further from my mind”.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/11/clive-lewis-dismisses-rumours-of-corbyn-leadership-challenge?client=safari

You'll excuse me if I don't accept your attempt to position yourself as the sole arbiter on this issue.

Clive Lewis's public position reflects the timing of his ambitions more than there direction of travel.

You want to work on your turn of phrase BTW.

[lucky]

You'll excuse me if I don't accept your attempt to position yourself as the sole arbiter on this issue.

Clive Lewis's public position reflects the timing of his ambitions more than there direction of travel.

You want to work on your turn of phrase BTW.

Hardly positioning myself as sole arbiter, I just posted direct quote which dispels your posting. My turn of phrase was fine because you deliberately posted a untruth and couldn't back it up

[Hibbyradge]

In a nutshell.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/11/british-government-cruel-opposition-useless

Corbyn is taking Labour down the pan. I'd settle for just about anyone else, providing they get their EU act together.

Possibly.

[snooky]

A Party leader should have an element of charisma.
Corbyn is on par with Gordon Brown. i.e. his charisma reading is in the minus.

[lucky]

Think Corbyns time as leader is coming to an end. But the question is who is capable of connecting with the British public and standing up against the Tories. JC has shown he's a capable politician but is not a leader or a PM in waiting

[Hibbyradge]

Cirbyn polling 3rd among working class voters.

FFS, what does he need to happen before he walks away for the goid of the Labour Party and the country?

[https://mobile.twitter.com/Conorpope/status/831123418183524352/photo/1

[Colr]

Labour might not be in such trouble in Stoke at this rate.

Nuttall has been telling post-truths, it would seem.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/14/ukip-leader-admits-claim-that-he-lost-close-friends-at-hillsborough-was-false

[Colr]

Think Corbyns time as leader is coming to an end. But the question is who is capable of connecting with the British public and standing up against the Tories. JC has shown he's a capable politician but is not a leader or a PM in waiting

But whom?

Who has been developing a political philosophy that can be rolled out as a vision of leadership for the country? The last challenger was an unworthy opportunist so I ended up voting for Corbyn.

Hillary Benn doesn't look interested. Dan Jarvis has been a really damp squib. I'm struggling here!!!

[northstandhibby]

But whom?

Who has been developing a political philosophy that can be rolled out as a vision of leadership for the country? The last challenger was an unworthy opportunist so I ended up voting for Corbyn.

Hillary Benn doesn't look interested. Dan Jarvis has been a really damp squib. I'm struggling here!!!

Could David Milliband be persuaded to run again? He would be a live contender.

edit... Just read he's after a job with the UN, pity as he would have been a good choice if Corbyn is on the way out.

glory glory

[hibsbollah]

I seriously doubt Corbyns position is under threat.

He won a landslide in September 2015. He was then challenged and won by an increased majority in September 2016. The largest popular mandate for any Labour leader in history at the Head of the largest political membership in Western Europe. Regardless of the schism in the Party, despite the opinion polls, you simply can't ignore the ridiculous big popular mandate. Otherwise you may as well dispense with leadership elections, reject the democratic process and just call for a new leader based on what opinion polls are telling you.

If say, Corbyn decided to resign for personal or health reasons, a new leader would have to reflect the mandate given. Left wing policies with a more media savvy face, perhaps? But I'm fairly sure whoever this apocryphal leader was there would be whisperings, briefings, attempts to undermine him or her and eventually some sort of coup again before 2020. Because the schism in Labour predates Corbyn coming to power, and Labour's last two election defeats and the SNP landslide up here predates him as well. He's inherited a disunited party and it will probably stay like that for at least a term, maybe more.

[RyeSloan]

Labour might not be in such trouble in Stoke at this rate.

Nuttall has been telling post-truths, it would seem.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/14/ukip-leader-admits-claim-that-he-lost-close-friends-at-hillsborough-was-false

The Labour candidate hardly seems top drawer either...and was a 'remainer' who is now fighting a seat that voted 70% leave. He has asked for the vote not to be a re run of the referendum but at the very least its not exactly going to help his chances is it?

[hibsbollah]

Labour might not be in such trouble in Stoke at this rate.

Nuttall has been telling post-truths, it would seem.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/14/ukip-leader-admits-claim-that-he-lost-close-friends-at-hillsborough-was-false

Its hard to disprove a negative, though, which is why the Guardian is trying it on.

[fulshie]

Labour might not be in such trouble in Stoke at this rate.

Nuttall has been telling post-truths, it would seem.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/14/ukip-leader-admits-claim-that-he-lost-close-friends-at-hillsborough-was-false
Yes this is certainly true but seemingly the LP candidate has history of bad mouthing women on social media. This was brought up on the Wright Show today. You have to be squeaky clean in this day in age it would seem.

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour and UKIP work together to undermine the Welsh Assembly


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/village-welsh-schools-row-controversy-12604880?service=responsive



LEANNE WOOD

"I’m aware that among a group of residents campaigning against Carmarthenshire County Council’s decision, there are some people standing for the Labour Party in Llangennech in May’s county and community council elections. It’s come to my attention that some of those candidates claim to be working with Ukip. Is it acceptable to you that Labour candidates are working with Ukip to undermine the Welsh Government’s policy on Welsh medium education?"

[RyeSloan]

More grim reading for Corbyn in the latest Guardian poll..

17% approval rating...jeez.

[beensaidbefore]

More grim reading for Corbyn in the latest Guardian poll..

17% approval rating...jeez.

As high as that?!
😂

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/i-was-wrong-to-defend-corbyn-he-has-betrayed-us-over-brexit

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/i-was-wrong-to-defend-corbyn-he-has-betrayed-us-over-brexit

That's an excoriating piece.

It's a joke to pretend he's a leader.

[hibsbollah]

That's an excoriating piece.

It's a joke to pretend he's a leader.

He is a leader because he won the election. Twice. Saying he isn't a leader doesn't make it true.

[Mibbes Aye]

He is a leader because he won the election. Twice. Saying he isn't a leader doesn't make it true.

Right then.

Four reshuffles in eighteen months?

Sold the jerseys over Brexit?

Shambles of a relaunch, where he changed his position within a couple of hours of public appearances?

His personal polling is toxic - I highlight this because I know you like to blame Labour's polling on division - and it's true that nearly half the party and most of the parliamentary party seem to think he is incompetent, feeble and a charlatan.

One question - can you point me to a time anywhere in history, where the polling has consistently shown the public trust the Tories more than Labour on the NHS?

Where's the vision?

Where's the message?

Where's the holding government to account?

I noted you did a bit self-congratulatory back-slapping a couple of months age when he had a decent PMQs. You were silent when he got bitchslapped by May at the following ones. May isn't good at PMQs, it should be an open goal. But he's not capable of that.

Where is the leadership Hibsbollah?

[Mibbes Aye]

He is a leader because he won the election. Twice. Saying he isn't a leader doesn't make it true.

Sorry, but on reflection, I really need to challenge that. I know from your posts that you're smart and I'm astonished that you would post that.

Do you really, really stand by a statement like that? Really?

[bigwheel]

He is a leader because he won the election. Twice. Saying he isn't a leader doesn't make it true.

Being a leader isn't a job title ...it's the impact you have on others around you ..do you inspire ? Bring great strategy ? Do you develop the capability of your team and those in your organisation and most of all do you deliver results ?

Being appointed the leader of the Labour Party doesn't make you an effective leader ...that has to be earned

[Mibbes Aye]

Corbyn's problem is he is incapable of being a manager and incapable of being a leader.

The Labour Party needs both but he isn't competent for either role.

[RyeSloan]

He is a leader because he won the election. Twice. Saying he isn't a leader doesn't make it true.

But just saying he won a party election twice doesn't make him any good as a Labour leader or an effective leader of the opposition.

It means he has grass roots support within his party, nothing more.

[Mibbes Aye]

But just saying he won a party election twice doesn't make him any good as a Labour leader or an effective leader of the opposition.

It means he has grass roots support within his party, nothing more.

He's like a silly puppet figurehead.

He never wanted to stand and was talked into it.

He rode the luck of a swell, the same swell that saw the other recent results.

But he can't actually deliver, he's incapable.

That means that a really poor Theresa May isn't being held to account.

What an absolute shambles.

[hibsbollah]

Sorry, but on reflection, I really need to challenge that. I know from your posts that you're smart and I'm astonished that you would post that.

Do you really, really stand by a statement like that? Really?

Absolutely. Completely and without a shadow of a doubt. How on earth can you challenge that statement?

Whether you think he is a good leader or bad leader is one question. To which you can debate and reason (despite the rather hysterical tone of the Corbyn debate where everything is reduced to mockery or argument from incredulity, which you've used above.)

But saying he's 'not a leader' is a factual fallacy. He's a leader by the rules of the Labour Party, and has the crushing and massive mandate. You could modify your language or even explain it away by saying what you meant was he doesn't have the ability to be a leader, but what you are actually doing is denying the reality of his mandate. Which is anti-democratic and therefore, in my eyes anyway, wrong.

[hibsbollah]

Right then.

Four reshuffles in eighteen months?

Sold the jerseys over Brexit?

Shambles of a relaunch, where he changed his position within a couple of hours of public appearances?

His personal polling is toxic - I highlight this because I know you like to blame Labour's polling on division - and it's true that nearly half the party and most of the parliamentary party seem to think he is incompetent, feeble and a charlatan.

One question - can you point me to a time anywhere in history, where the polling has consistently shown the public trust the Tories more than Labour on the NHS?

Where's the vision?

Where's the message?

Where's the holding government to account?

I noted you did a bit self-congratulatory back-slapping a couple of months age when he had a decent PMQs. You were silent when he got bitchslapped by May at the following ones. May isn't good at PMQs, it should be an open goal. But he's not capable of that.

Where is the leadership Hibsbollah?

You're ranting a bit.
I didn't even mention Corbyns qualities or otherwise. Im questioning the accuracy of your post.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're ranting a bit.
I didn't even mention Corbyns qualities or otherwise. Im questioning the accuracy of your post.

Why not just refute my points?

Oh, that's right. You refused when asked before.

Answer my post?

[Mibbes Aye]

Absolutely. Completely and without a shadow of a doubt. How on earth can you challenge that statement?

Whether you think he is a good leader or bad leader is one question. To which you can debate and reason (despite the rather hysterical tone of the Corbyn debate where everything is reduced to mockery or argument from incredulity, which you've used above.)

But saying he's 'not a leader' is a factual fallacy. He's a leader by the rules of the Labour Party, and has the crushing and massive mandate. You could modify your language or even explain it away by saying what you meant was he doesn't have the ability to be a leader, but what you are actually doing is denying the reality of his mandate. Which is anti-democratic and therefore, in my eyes anyway, wrong.

My eyes nearly bled reading this post but the last sentence was utterly revealing.

Incidentally, you never replied when I called you out on a previous thread- you said Labour had done nothing progressive since Attlee. Do you just make it up?

[hibsbollah]

My eyes nearly bled reading this post but the last sentence was utterly revealing.

Incidentally, you never replied when I called you out on a previous thread- you said Labour had done nothing progressive since Attlee. Do you just make it up?

That's a bit rude. Again. You seem indignantly angry all the time about Corbyn, way out of proportion, and that now extends to how you respond to me I think. I'm under no obligation to answer your 'points' one by one, which in reality are just repetitions of opinions you've already aired and I've already disagreed with. It's interesting that you complain that I don't respond to your points, because that's exactly how you behave with mine :dunno:

[Hibbyradge]

"The far left are the Tories best friends".

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/left-tories-best-friends/

[Hibbyradge]

Absolutely. Completely and without a shadow of a doubt. How on earth can you challenge that statement?

Whether you think he is a good leader or bad leader is one question. To which you can debate and reason (despite the rather hysterical tone of the Corbyn debate where everything is reduced to mockery or argument from incredulity, which you've used above.)

But saying he's 'not a leader' is a factual fallacy. He's a leader by the rules of the Labour Party, and has the crushing and massive mandate. You could modify your language or even explain it away by saying what you meant was he doesn't have the ability to be a leader, but what you are actually doing is denying the reality of his mandate. Which is anti-democratic and therefore, in my eyes anyway, wrong.

You're semantically correct.

Corbyn is a "leader".

He's a "leader" in the same way that Alan O'Brien was a "footballer", Harold Shipman was a "GP", and Tony Soprano was a "waste management consultant".

[hibsbollah]

You're semantically correct.

Corbyn is a "leader".

He's a "leader" in the same way that Alan O'Brien was a "footballer", Harold Shipman was a "GP", and Tony Soprano was a "waste management consultant".

:faf: I admit that's quite funny, although it also shows how far divorced from reality the debate has got when we get when Corbyn gets compared to Harold Shipman. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the Guardian picks it up and runs with it...

[Hibbyradge]

:faf: I admit that's quite funny, although it also shows how far divorced from reality the debate has got when we get when Corbyn gets compared to Harold Shipman. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the Guardian picks it up and runs with it...

I quite liked it myself. :greengrin

However, you're correct again. The idea that Corbyn is a "leader" is, indeed, a long, long way from reality.

As the spectator article I posted points out, he's utterly innefectual. Why the far left aren't worried about it baffles me.

[northstandhibby]

"The far left are the Tories best friends".

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/left-tories-best-friends/

An interesting read which only confirms what most tuned in folk think anyhow in that the authorities ultimately serve themselves first and always.

glory glory

[mjhibby]

An interesting read which only confirms what most tuned in folk think anyhow in that the authorities ultimately serve themselves first and always.

glory glory

Very accurate summing up of the state of politics. I only know a couple of corbyn supporters and trying to reason with them is pointless. They seem to think that for some reason he is a Messiah type figure and the polls are all the fault of the press. It is utterly depressing watching the worst govt in my nearly forty years of voting blunder their way through one cock up after another and if course the impending doom of the total mishandling of ukip by Cameron and now Mays handling of brexit and trump. My dad must be turning in his grave to think how hard he fought in the second world war and in his working life. Youngsters don't know any different but for us of a certain age it's gut wrenching watching this shambles of a govt let off Scot free while the left navel gaze.

[hibsbollah]

Very accurate summing up of the state of politics. I only know a couple of corbyn supporters and trying to reason with them is pointless. They seem to think that for some reason he is a Messiah type figure and the polls are all the fault of the press. It is utterly depressing watching the worst govt in my nearly forty years of voting blunder their way through one cock up after another and if course the impending doom of the total mishandling of ukip by Cameron and now Mays handling of brexit and trump. My dad must be turning in his grave to think how hard he fought in the second world war and in his working life. Youngsters don't know any different but for us of a certain age it's gut wrenching watching this shambles of a govt let off Scot free while the left navel gaze.

I seriously doubt any Labour supporter sees Corbyn as a 'messiah type figure'. Who have you spoken to that thinks this? Maybe they are one of the hundreds of thousands of people who voted for him because they simply like his policies?

[Hibbyradge]

I seriously doubt any Labour supporter sees Corbyn as a 'messiah type figure'. Who have you spoken to that thinks this? Maybe they are one of the hundreds of thousands of people who voted for him because they simply like his policies?

https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.210944958.5795/gptr,x3104,front,black-c,550,680,985,1100-bg,f8f8f8.2u2.jpg

Just google "Corbyn merchandise" and you'll find an astonishing array of hero worship items. Pillow cases with his picture and "I love Jez" next to it. Nah, not a cult.

Of course, you've ignored the real point about his inability to challenge the Tories and opted for an exercise in semantics again.

They're closing hospitals and getting away with it. The most incompetent cabinet in my living history staggers from mistake to lie to fantasy, yet Corbyn can't land a blow.

Plus, forcing Labour MPs to vote with the Tories on Brexit was a dusgrace and it will speed the party's decline in the polls, but that doesn't seem to bother the far left as long as it's the non-messiah that's doing it.

[CapitalGreen]

Just google "Corbyn merchandise" and you'll find an astonishing array of hero worship items. Pillow cases with his picture and "I love Jez" next to it. Nah, not a cult.

Do the same for any political leader and you will get the same thing. For example Ed Miliband:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ed+miliband+merchandise&safe=off&espv=2&biw=736&bih=502&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP076HuqPSAhXBLcAKHXg6DYsQ_AUIBigB

[Hibbyradge]

Do the same for any political leader and you will get the same thing. For example Ed Miliband:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ed+miliband+merchandise&safe=off&espv=2&biw=736&bih=502&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP076HuqPSAhXBLcAKHXg6DYsQ_AUIBigB

True, but most of that stuff was taking the pish out of Miliband and it was never close to the scale we see with Corbyn.

Thatcher was the last leader I remember having such a cult folliwing.

[hibsbollah]

https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.210944958.5795/gptr,x3104,front,black-c,550,680,985,1100-bg,f8f8f8.2u2.jpg

Just google "Corbyn merchandise" and you'll find an astonishing array of hero worship items. Pillow cases with his picture and "I love Jez" next to it. Nah, not a cult.

Of course, you've ignored the real point about his inability to challenge the Tories and opted for an exercise in semantics again.

They're closing hospitals and getting away with it. The most incompetent cabinet in my living history staggers from mistake to lie to fantasy, yet Corbyn can't land a blow.

Plus, forcing Labour MPs to vote with the Tories on Brexit was a dusgrace and it will speed the party's decline in the polls, but that doesn't seem to bother the far left as long as it's the non-messiah that's doing it.

:faf: come on now. Are you seriously saying those that shirts are evidence of cult worship? It's tongue in cheek Ffs. He's a greying pacifist geezer from Islington, Nobody thinks he's the messiah. The nonsense demonising anyone who wants an alternative from austerity and neo liberalism as 'trots' or 'far left' is boring.

Am I 'far left' for wanting a mixed economy of some state owned industry and some private industry? In a recent poll 60% of the population wants a publicly run Post office, as Corbyn does. Are they extremists too?

[CapitalGreen]

True, but most of that stuff was taking the pish out of Miliband and it was never close to the scale we see with Corbyn.

Thatcher was the last leader I remember having such a cult folliwing.

So a pillow with "I love Ed" on it is taking the pish but a pillow with "I love Jez" on it is evidence of cultish hero worship? ok then.

There are lots of reasons and ammunition available to criticise Corbyn about but this is stretching it a bit and coming over a bit sad.

[One Day Soon]

I seriously doubt Corbyns position is under threat.

He won a landslide in September 2015. He was then challenged and won by an increased majority in September 2016. The largest popular mandate for any Labour leader in history at the Head of the largest political membership in Western Europe. Regardless of the schism in the Party, despite the opinion polls, you simply can't ignore the ridiculous big popular mandate. Otherwise you may as well dispense with leadership elections, reject the democratic process and just call for a new leader based on what opinion polls are telling you.

If say, Corbyn decided to resign for personal or health reasons, a new leader would have to reflect the mandate given. Left wing policies with a more media savvy face, perhaps? But I'm fairly sure whoever this apocryphal leader was there would be whisperings, briefings, attempts to undermine him or her and eventually some sort of coup again before 2020. Because the schism in Labour predates Corbyn coming to power, and Labour's last two election defeats and the SNP landslide up here predates him as well. He's inherited a disunited party and it will probably stay like that for at least a term, maybe more.


I think he has to be given the opportunity to lead the party to the cataclysmically bad election result that his 'leadership' deserves. So does Trump and so do the consequences of Brexit. The political 'leaders' are not to blame here, the idiots who voted for them are. Until people see that political actions have consequences there is zero chance that a more rational politics will prevail.

This split in the party has existed since almost its foundation. Of course in recent decades it was mitigated by the dominance of the New Labour orthodoxy and the fact that most of the revolutionary left were spending their time and energies outside Labour. The mass entryism, the credulous wave of new non-entryist membership, the sheer dearth of Parliamentary talent and the failure to know or find a coherent response to globalisation and global economic stagnation (though to be fair that applies to every political party everywhere) has delivered a perfect storm for Labour.

Corbyn hasn't just inherited a disunited party, he's been one of the most tireless propagators of that divided party throughout his political life.

The most fascinating element of all this is the psychology at work that allows his supporters to watch his record breaking 5hite poll ratings in every regard and somehow deny or dismiss them. Its a bit like the relatives of a terminally ill man being given his serially deteriorating vital signs and just insisting that he's fine. But then I suspect that for most of these people politics is a parlour game whose consequences they are well insulated from.

[easty]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tom-watson-dab-video-pmqs-dance-move-corbyn-parliament-deputy-labour-leader-a7593411.html

what's that all about? :confused:

what a dick.

[hibsbollah]

I think he has to be given the opportunity to lead the party to the cataclysmically bad election result that his 'leadership' deserves. So does Trump and so do the consequences of Brexit. The political 'leaders' are not to blame here, the idiots who voted for them are. Until people see that political actions have consequences there is zero chance that a more rational politics will prevail.

This split in the party has existed since almost its foundation. Of course in recent decades it was mitigated by the dominance of the New Labour orthodoxy and the fact that most of the revolutionary left were spending their time and energies outside Labour. The mass entryism, the credulous wave of new non-entryist membership, the sheer dearth of Parliamentary talent and the failure to know or find a coherent response to globalisation and global economic stagnation (though to be fair that applies to every political party everywhere) has delivered a perfect storm for Labour.

Corbyn hasn't just inherited a disunited party, he's been one of the most tireless propagators of that divided party throughout his political life.

The most fascinating element of all this is the psychology at work that allows his supporters to watch his record breaking 5hite poll ratings in every regard and somehow deny or dismiss them. Its a bit like the relatives of a terminally ill man being given his serially deteriorating vital signs and just insisting that he's fine. But then I suspect that for most of these people politics is a parlour game whose consequences they are well insulated from.

An intelligent post dealing with political reality, even if I disagree with some of the analysis.

The 'perfect storm for labour' line will be trotted out more than once during the by-election coverage tomorrow. Storm Doris should result in a < 20% turnout in Stoke.

[Hibbyradge]

:faf: come on now. Are you seriously saying those that shirts are evidence of cult worship? It's tongue in cheek Ffs. He's a greying pacifist geezer from Islington, Nobody thinks he's the messiah. The nonsense demonising anyone who wants an alternative from austerity and neo liberalism as 'trots' or 'far left' is boring.

Am I 'far left' for wanting a mixed economy of some state owned industry and some private industry? In a recent poll 60% of the population wants a publicly run Post office, as Corbyn does. Are they extremists too?

The real evidence of the Cult is the way his followers treat dissenters.

Also, most cults believe that supernatural things will happen like the end of days or the second coming.

In this case, Corbyn's cult is waiting for, and I quote, "seismic events like scandal, war, recession and financial shock". 😉

[Peevemor]

The real evidence of the Cult is the way his followers treat dissenters.

Also, most cults believe that supernatural things will happen like the end of days or the second coming.

In this case, Corbyn's cult is waiting for, and I quote, "seismic events like scandal, war, recession and financial shock". 😉

Politics seems to attract all sorts of cults.

[Hibbyradge]

An intelligent post dealing with political reality, even if I disagree with some of the analysis.

The 'perfect storm for labour' line will be trotted out more than once during the by-election coverage tomorrow. Storm Doris should result in a < 20% turnout in Stoke.

I'm delighted you are comfortable with that post. Common ground at last.

As regards tomorrow's by-elections, are you getting your excuses in early? Surely the biggest political movement in history will be able to put in a wee shift to mobilise the Labour vote regardless of a bit wind and rain.

Or do all the £3 folk think they've done their bit by saddling us with Corbyn?

[Hibbyradge]

Politics seems to attract all sorts of cults.

We'll chat about Marie le Pen later . . .

[hibsbollah]

I'm delighted you are comfortable with that post. Common ground at last.

As regards tomorrow's by-elections, are you getting your excuses in early? Surely the biggest political movement in history will be able to put in a wee shift to mobilise the Labour vote regardless of a bit wind and rain.

Or do all the £3 folk think they've done their bit by saddling us with Corbyn?

I'm not sure how to answer either of those questions, the first one is just you being cheeky and the second one I genuinely don't understand.

[Colr]

I'm delighted you are comfortable with that post. Common ground at last.

As regards tomorrow's by-elections, are you getting your excuses in early? Surely the biggest political movement in history will be able to put in a wee shift to mobilise the Labour vote regardless of a bit wind and rain.

Or do all the £3 folk think they've done their bit by saddling us with Corbyn?

I didn't vote Corbyn the first time but did the second time as there alternative was an appalling option. Had Angela Eagle had the backbone to stand, she would have got my vote but she didn't and neither has anyone else credible which in itself is an appaulling indictment of the quality of individual in the parliamentary party at the moment. They're all staring at their shoes waiting for someone else to step forward on their behalf. Spineless cowards!

[Hibbyradge]

I didn't vote Corbyn the first time but did the second time as there alternative was an appalling option. Had Angela Eagle had the backbone to stand, she would have got my vote but she didn't and neither has anyone else credible which in itself is an appaulling indictment of the quality of individual in the parliamentary party at the moment. They're all staring at their shoes waiting for someone else to step forward on their behalf. Spineless cowards!

I understand that it looks like that, but they're not.

They're deliberately giving Corbyn enough rope. More and more people are turning away from him and when the time is right, he'll be challenged again.

[hibsbollah]

I understand that it looks like that, but they're not.

They're deliberately giving Corbyn enough rope. More and more people are turning away from him and when the time is right, he'll be challenged again.

The one thing that guarantees Labour's continuing opposition is annual leadership contests. He's won in 2015 and 2016. I'd like there to be a clause in this apocryphal 2017 re-election that if he wins again the mandelsons et al must **** off and do the obvious thing and form SDP2. Or just give up any pretence that Labour is democratic.

[Hibbyradge]

The one thing that guarantees Labour's continuing opposition is annual leadership contests. He's won in 2015 and 2016. I'd like there to be a clause in this apocryphal 2017 re-election that if he wins again the mandelsons et al must **** off and do the obvious thing and form SDP2. Or just give up any pretence that Labour is democratic.

Jeremy Corbyn guarantees continual opposition. In fact, he guarantees diminishing opposition. He just achieved a lower share of the vote in Copeland than Michael Foot did and he was a total disaster.

As soon as he is replaced by a credible leader, Labour's popularity will rise.

I thought democracy meant that if the person you voted for isn't delivering what you want or expect, they can be removed.

[stantonhibby]

The one thing that guarantees Labour's continuing opposition is annual leadership contests. He's won in 2015 and 2016. I'd like there to be a clause in this apocryphal 2017 re-election that if he wins again the mandelsons et al must **** off and do the obvious thing and form SDP2. Or just give up any pretence that Labour is democratic.

I agree that having leadership elections every few months is bonkers and pointless...... I'd prefer Corbyn to do the decent thing and stand down and give someone else a chance to prevent a catastrophic result in the next General Election.

[hibsbollah]

I agree that having leadership elections every few months is bonkers and pointless...... I'd prefer Corbyn to do the decent thing and stand down and give someone else a chance to prevent a catastrophic result in the next General Election.

There are two central problems with this course of action; first, democratic legitimacy. Even if he wanted to, would it be legitimate to just ignore the memberships massive mandate, unprecedented in scale and frequency? Second, it is NOT inevitable that Labour loses in 2020. The polls suggest it to be likely, but if we always listened to what the polls tell us the UK would still be in Europe and Hilary Clinton would be in the White House.

If you could ensure that a candidate came forward that could unite the Party AND still have a left wing manifesto which the Party membership wants, personally id welcome that, but that's almost impossible because the Partys divisions predate Corbyn and will still be there when and if he leaves.​ Everyone really knows this, right?

[Hibbyradge]

Funny yet depressingly true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/copeland-by-election-churchillian-corbyn-knows-that-it-is-only-through-failure-that-you-find-success-a7598416.html

"that leadership having varied not one nanodegree from the path of the entirely foreseeable."

[ronaldo7]

18152

Jezza, struggling to fill the hall.

[ronaldo7]

Go Jezza.:greengrin

https://twitter.com/AlbaTwanda/status/835844640137953281

[Hibbyradge]

Go Jezza.:greengrin

https://twitter.com/AlbaTwanda/status/835844640137953281

:embarrass :bitchy:

[marinello59]

Go Jezza.:greengrin

https://twitter.com/AlbaTwanda/status/835844640137953281

Brilliant. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

:embarrass :bitchy:

You'll have to vote Green.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

You'll have to vote Green.:greengrin

It's a Tory seat here so it'll be a tactical vote for the liberals for me, I think.

Unless . . .

[Hibbyradge]

Here's a devastating indictment of Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party from an Editorial in yesterday's edition of 'The Times'.

"In the past 20 years Labour has won three elections handsomely, two of them by landslides. Yet the party is now not merely enfeebled but in crisis. Responsibility for this precipitous decline lies entirely with the party itself. However pleasing this will be for Theresa May, it is damaging for the country and the quality of public debate.

Since losing the 2015 election by a wide margin, Labour has abandoned the conventions of two-party politics. It has abdicated the constitutional responsibilities of a serious parliamentary opposition, floated policy ideas of extravagant absurdity and elected as leader a man whose patent unsuitability to high office is exemplified in habitual halting statements and rhetorical fumbles. This has brought the derision of his colleagues and poll ratings that break postwar records for unpopularity.

Losing the Copeland by-election to the Conservatives was, in all the wrong senses, a historic achievement. The Tories increased their share of the vote by 8.5 per cent. That result confirms the chasm at the heart of British politics. Copeland is the first time since 1982, in the wake of victory in the Falklands, that a governing party has won a seat from the opposition. The constituency was held by Labour continuously from the 1930s. In the by-election in Stoke, Labour held on but with a decline in its share of the vote. It had the good fortune that the contest, in a strongly pro-Brexit area, had originally been seen as a battle between Labour and Ukip. The Ukip candidate and party leader, Paul Nuttall, turned out to be a mercurial character with a taste for making lurid autobiographical statements. His vote was almost eclipsed by the Tories.

Interviewed in The Times today, David Miliband, the former foreign secretary, says that his party is further from power than at any point in his lifetime. The only quarrel an observer could have with his comment is that it may understate the severity of Labour’s plight. If the Copeland swing were replicated uniformly on a national scale, the Conservative majority would soar from 12 to 124, with Labour winning 177 seats.

Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader in name if little else, is unlikely to do as well as that in a general election. The public has thus far seen little of him. He became leader, and was re-elected to the post against the wishes of Labour MPs because he promised an ideological purity regardless of the historic failures of socialism and in defiance of the views of the electorate. Yet the defining characteristic of Mr Corbyn’s leadership is not his doctrinaire politics and unsavoury alliances with extremists and antisemites, but his remorseless incompetence. His grasp of policy is minimal and his lack of articulacy is demonstrated repeatedly in parliamentary debate.

Widely regarded as an affable duffer, Mr Corbyn lacks even that reputed public amiability. When pressed in interviews he loses his temper. His public standing and refusal to recognise fault in himself are born of vanity. While the government needs to be held to account in handling Brexit negotiations, Labour has abandoned those of its voters (two-thirds of them) who supported Remain. The Liberal Democrats are reaping some rewards from this. Meanwhile Ukip may have been badly wounded by Mr Nuttall’s failure to take a seat he should have won, but Labour risks further losses in the north of England to the Conservatives.

Capable and moderate figures are abandoning Labour. Hence as the government embarks on the task of finding a new place for Britain in the international economic order outside the European Union, a parliamentary opposition exists in name alone. For Britain it is a dismal political prospect. For Labour, a historic catastrophe.

And for Mr Corbyn, an indelible disgrace."

[Hibbyradge]

Nobody thinks he's the messiah.

The Guardian's Zoe Willams certainly doesn't.

"I also thought of Corbyn as a John the Baptist figure, who would make way for Jesus when the time came".

:hilarious

Not a bad article, really.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/27/navel-gazing-labour-radical-policy-platform-jeremy-corbyn

[hibsbollah]

Here's a devastating indictment of Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party from an Editorial in yesterday's edition of 'The Times'.

"In the past 20 years Labour has won three elections handsomely, two of them by landslides. Yet the party is now not merely enfeebled but in crisis. Responsibility for this precipitous decline lies entirely with the party itself. However pleasing this will be for Theresa May, it is damaging for the country and the quality of public debate.

Since losing the 2015 election by a wide margin, Labour has abandoned the conventions of two-party politics. It has abdicated the constitutional responsibilities of a serious parliamentary opposition, floated policy ideas of extravagant absurdity and elected as leader a man whose patent unsuitability to high office is exemplified in habitual halting statements and rhetorical fumbles. This has brought the derision of his colleagues and poll ratings that break postwar records for unpopularity.

Losing the Copeland by-election to the Conservatives was, in all the wrong senses, a historic achievement. The Tories increased their share of the vote by 8.5 per cent. That result confirms the chasm at the heart of British politics. Copeland is the first time since 1982, in the wake of victory in the Falklands, that a governing party has won a seat from the opposition. The constituency was held by Labour continuously from the 1930s. In the by-election in Stoke, Labour held on but with a decline in its share of the vote. It had the good fortune that the contest, in a strongly pro-Brexit area, had originally been seen as a battle between Labour and Ukip. The Ukip candidate and party leader, Paul Nuttall, turned out to be a mercurial character with a taste for making lurid autobiographical statements. His vote was almost eclipsed by the Tories.

Interviewed in The Times today, David Miliband, the former foreign secretary, says that his party is further from power than at any point in his lifetime. The only quarrel an observer could have with his comment is that it may understate the severity of Labour’s plight. If the Copeland swing were replicated uniformly on a national scale, the Conservative majority would soar from 12 to 124, with Labour winning 177 seats.

Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader in name if little else, is unlikely to do as well as that in a general election. The public has thus far seen little of him. He became leader, and was re-elected to the post against the wishes of Labour MPs because he promised an ideological purity regardless of the historic failures of socialism and in defiance of the views of the electorate. Yet the defining characteristic of Mr Corbyn’s leadership is not his doctrinaire politics and unsavoury alliances with extremists and antisemites, but his remorseless incompetence. His grasp of policy is minimal and his lack of articulacy is demonstrated repeatedly in parliamentary debate.

Widely regarded as an affable duffer, Mr Corbyn lacks even that reputed public amiability. When pressed in interviews he loses his temper. His public standing and refusal to recognise fault in himself are born of vanity. While the government needs to be held to account in handling Brexit negotiations, Labour has abandoned those of its voters (two-thirds of them) who supported Remain. The Liberal Democrats are reaping some rewards from this. Meanwhile Ukip may have been badly wounded by Mr Nuttall’s failure to take a seat he should have won, but Labour risks further losses in the north of England to the Conservatives.

Capable and moderate figures are abandoning Labour. Hence as the government embarks on the task of finding a new place for Britain in the international economic order outside the European Union, a parliamentary opposition exists in name alone. For Britain it is a dismal political prospect. For Labour, a historic catastrophe.

And for Mr Corbyn, an indelible disgrace."

Its an astonishing rant in Murdochs flagship, devoid of any kind of balanced analysis. Ironically, almost Stalinist propaganda.

[Colr]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/27/clive-lewis-denies-registering-websites-for-labour-leadership-bid


Hmmmmm!!

[Hibbyradge]

Its an astonishing rant in Murdochs flagship, devoid of any kind of balanced analysis. Ironically, almost Stalinist propaganda.

Predictable.

No need to deal with the criticism because it's in the Times.

Unfortunately, the electorate doesn't see it that way.

[hibsbollah]

Predictable.

No need to deal with the criticism because it's in the Times.

Unfortunately, the electorate doesn't see it that way.

The irony in you calling anyone else 'predictable' is brilliant. We've had months and months of you posting the same crap links to the same crap articles, almost every day.
Its a crap article. Corbyn an 'anti-Semite':rolleyes:. Give me strength.

[Hibbyradge]

The irony in you calling anyone else 'predictable' is brilliant. We've had months and months of you posting the same crap links to the same crap articles, almost every day.
Its a crap article. Corbyn an 'anti-Semite':rolleyes:. Give me strength.

It's not ironic in the slightest. I knew your response would be to dismiss the article because of where it was written.

It's the only defence the left have. No answers to the actual criticisms. Just say they're "Crap links to crap articles" without a shred of substance or evidence to the contrary.

When you point out how brilliant Corbyn is doing/has done, I'll either agree or I'll refute the remarks with counter arguments/examples.

I won't merely duck for cover behind the fact that it was in the Socialist Worker or merely call it a crap article, even though it might be.

[Hibbyradge]

Which "non- trot", "non entryist" said, "I’m not in the Labour party because I’m a believer of the Labour party as some supreme body or something God-given or anything like that,”

“It’s a tactic. It’s as simple as that. If it’s no longer a useful vehicle, move on."?

[Mibbes Aye]

Which "non- trot", "non entryist" said, "I’m not in the Labour party because I’m a believer of the Labour party as some supreme body or something God-given or anything like that,”

“It’s a tactic. It’s as simple as that. If it’s no longer a useful vehicle, move on."?

Well it wouldn't be someone committed to the Labour Party would it?

You couldn't, say for example, draw a salary as a Labour MP, hold a position as a Labour shadow minister and have those beliefs, could you?. It would be sheer hypocrisy.

It would be like,oh I don't know, taking all the benefits of the Party's support but voting against it year after year after year. Sheer hypocrisy and fundamental dishonesty. Selfish and vainglorious even?

The problem for McDonnell and Corbyn is that if they think they had to fight off the moderates, they forgot that the most bitter and vicious elements in the Party and the movement are those who cling onto the old far leftist tropes. Some of them are starting to gun for the leadership now and it's a zero sum game when that happens.

And all the while,no one holds this wretchedly poor Tory government to account.

It's scandalous.

[ronaldo7]

Jezza comes out for Indyref2. I wonder how Kezia is going to take this one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39244890

[Hibrandenburg]

Jezza comes out for Indyref2. I wonder how Kezia is going to take this one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39244890

:faf:

[Hibbyradge]

Jezza comes out for Indyref2. I wonder how Kezia is going to take this one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39244890

Ms Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister and SNP leader, tweeted that it was "always a pleasure to have Jeremy Corbyn campaigning in Scotland". :hilarious

[Hibbyradge]

Is it ok to laugh? Leader?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-referred-prime-minister-12797076

[RyeSloan]

Is it ok to laugh? Leader?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-referred-prime-minister-12797076

Wow...that speech is so all over the place I don't know where to start!

Well maybe I do. Can someone explain this to me please:

“And as any homeowner who has ever had a mortgage knows, taking on huge debt can save you money in the long run.”

[Hibbyradge]

https://s18.postimg.org/o9105qg4p/image.jpg

For reasons that evade me, a rubbish bin next to a flag pointing at them which says "Dangerous" seems to have offered a photo opportunity too good to miss.

#governmentinthewaiting?

[Hibbyradge]

The lack of judgement throughout Corbyn's front bench is bewildering.

As it's a Sun article, I've followed protocol and copy/pasted the main paragraphs for you.

I've left out the ones about the Tories calling for him to distance himself from the band etc.

Labour’s justice boss ridiculed after he joins a heavy metal band that delights in Nazi symbols!

Shadow Justice Secretary and MP for East Leeds Richard Burgon has started doing vocals for rock band Dream Troll.

The group uses the name of Hitler’s infamous SS security unit as lettering in its promotion posters.

It also spells its name in German military font, complete with an umlaut over the letter ‘o’’, and has the motto; “We Sold our Soul for Rock n’Troll’”.

Mr Burgon posted a snap of himself recording with the band on Facebook last week, telling followers: “Away from politics, music is my main interest”.

The revelation is an embarrassment for under-fire opposition boss Jeremy Corbyn, as Burgon is a key leftwing ally and one of his most loyal supporters.

It also follows furious protests from Labour MPs over the party’s failure to expel ex-London mayor Ken Livingstone for making offensive comments about Hitler.

First elected only two years ago, Mr Burgon was promoted to the shadow cabinet last year after multiple resignations in protest against Mr Corbyn’s leadership.

Burgon has been criticised by moderate Labour MPs in the past for speaking at Communist Party rallies and wants the Queen to step down as head of state.

Burgon told The Sun last night: “I grew up in Leeds with the members of this band. I have known them since we were teenagers.

“They are ordinary decent blokes and there’s not a racist or Nazi bone in their bodies.”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3334260/labours-justice-boss-ridiculed-after-he-joins-a-heavy-metal-band-that-delights-in-nazi-symbols/

[marinello59]

We can only hope that the Labour Party gets behind Corbyn now in order to limit any Tory gains as much as possible.
If every single person who only joined the party or paid their few quid to elect him as leader played their part and got out on the streets he might have a chance of giving a respectable showing. I wonder what percentage of those people will deliver as much as one leaflet. Precious few I would imagine.

[Colr]

Rumour in the Guardian that David Milliband may seek a seat to contest!!

[northstandhibby]

Rumour in the Guardian that David Milliband may seek a seat to contest!!

I've always quietly hoped he'd make a comeback as he's got what it takes. Great news if true.

:agree:

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

I've always quietly hoped he'd make a comeback as he's got what it takes. Great news if true.

:agree:

glory glory

Not sure he'd be welcomed back into the New Social Nationalist Party.

[Scorrie]

I've always quietly hoped he'd make a comeback as he's got what it takes. Great news if true.

:agree:

glory glory

But Labour have fought the last 2 elections on a Blairite type ticket and got humped. Why would it change this time? If there are two Tory type parties available, people will always go with the real thing.

[northstandhibby]

But Labour have fought the last 2 elections on a Blairite type ticket and got humped. Why would it change this time? If there are two Tory type parties available, people will always go with the real thing.

I think you're underestimating David Milliband's intellect. Who says he'll run on a Blairite type agenda anyway? He'd set out his own agenda and I think he'd unite the party and set out his own direction of travel for the party. Delighted to hear this if true which I think is highly likely to be.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Not sure he'd be welcomed back into the New Social Nationalist Party.

:greengrin

Not bad at all Hb.

glory glory

[Hibbyradge]

Rumour in the Guardian that David Milliband may seek a seat to contest!!

Please, please, please . . .

[Hibbyradge]

But Labour have fought the last 2 elections on a Blairite type ticket and got humped. Why would it change this time? If there are two Tory type parties available, people will always go with the real thing.

Drivel.

Blair won 3 elections in a row and gave the country some of the best policies we've had in modern times.

Gordon Brown "lost" because he was hopeless in front of a TV camera. The Libdems sealed his fate, of course.

Miliband moved left and lost.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not sure he'd be welcomed back into the New Social Nationalist Party.

Fair play to him if he gives up his 500k a year job in NY.

Will be a very serious additiob to UK politics.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.labour.org.uk/pages/parliamentary-selection-process-2017

Go on Hibby Labour types, you couldn't do any worse ... :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

In today's edition of The Times, Philip Collins looks at what the Tories and the Labour Party might stand to gain from the upcoming General Election.

He concludes that, whilst Mrs May might be taking the Conservative Party nowhere, Old Corbo is driving the Labour Party over a cliff!

But, but, but, it's the Times . . . :rolleyes:

"The only real question of this untimely general election is how low the Labour Party can go. It is an unusual election in that every party has a reason for wanting it. The Tories to seek a crushing victory, the SNP to gain a mandate for a second independence referendum, the Liberal Democrats to lock in recovery and Labour to get shot of Jeremy Corbyn. The central question, though, is the last one. Has Theresa May hastened the dying day of the Labour Party or brought forward its salvation?

The prime minister’s opening remarks were a study in needless dishonesty. With a large majority in parliament for her Article 50 process it was bizarre to pretend that her plans are being thwarted. She should leave that sort of unworthy stupidity to the Daily Mail which is practised in it. It is entirely reasonable for a new prime minister to want her own mandate. She should say that and stick to it. No television debate, no questions at stage-managed public appearances. So far she has been fragile, not entirely candid and scared of a conversation.

Spare yourself the ‘oh, but Trump’, ‘oh, but Brexit’ nonsense
Which makes her a certain victor. Labour enters the campaign on 24 per cent in the opinion polls. Mr Corbyn is thought to be the best option as prime minister by only 15 per cent of the country. More people think the moon landings were faked than think Labour will win on June 8. If the broadcasters proceed with the plan to put an empty chair on stage where Mrs May should be, Mr Corbyn has a decent chance of winning that exchange, as long as he doesn’t turn up. Labour MPs in tight races are giving up and nobody with a majority of 5,000 or fewer expects to win. Labour MPs believe that a poll score of 24 per cent flatters them and that, once the election campaign moves on to Mr Corbyn’s views on the IRA (which it will), the party might flirt with the high teens.

There is a parlour game in the gallows for the historically minded, which is to work out the appropriate year for comparison. Is it perhaps 1983, in which Labour produced The New Hope for Britain, a 39-page booklet, as its manifesto. The section on “the law of the sea” was my favourite, although it may as well have been the law of the jungle for all the difference it made. Michael Foot’s Labour won 27.6 per cent of the vote and 209 seats. Mr Corbyn will struggle to do as well. Perhaps the way to salvage historical notoriety from 2017 is, in memoriam to Gerald Kaufman who coined the phrase “the longest suicide note in history”, to call the manifesto No Hope for Britain and make it at least 40 pages long.

So if 1983 is too high a bar, maybe the better precedent is 1935 when Labour won only 154 seats. Even that performance marked something of a recovery from the 52 seats of 1931, and the improvement was due to an unusual manoeuvre from which Labour could still learn. As the election loomed the party was led by a committed pacifist from the left of the party, George Lansbury. When, a month before the election, the Labour conference voted in favour of sanctions against Italy for its aggression against Abyssinia, Lansbury was replaced by Attlee. There is no Attlee on hand with a month to go, alas, and Mr Corbyn seems intent on his vain but not glorious adventure to oblivion. The Corbyn experiment has been an education in basic politics for some new members of the Labour Party who didn’t know better and some old ones who should have done. The class of 2017 is about to graduate, with dishonour.

The opening of the campaign was a comic-book caper. Labour has set up a website called I Like Corbyn, But. . . which helpfully sets out all the reasons you might regard him as a nice chap but a hapless leader and then a few darker reservations such as Mr Corbyn keeping company with terrorists. Hackney Momentum is advising all supporters to put a tenner on Mr Corbyn to win which will shift the odds in his favour and “change the narrative”. Short of changing it to The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, I can’t see how this works. Then Mr Corbyn himself appeared, shouting platitudes of an unpopular populist type, railing against the establishment, vowing not to play by the rules and saying there are no rules in politics anyway. Here is a rule: any election that opens with the opposition leader moaning that the result is not necessarily a foregone conclusion is a foregone conclusion.

After the election, the government will soon look empty of purpose
A charismatic leader with a competent team running on a left-wing programme would lose an election to Theresa May. Labour is insulting the electorate by putting up a man of no charisma and little intellect who, on small matters like Britain and the EU, has nothing to say. It is a recipe for catastrophe and the only question is how bad it gets. Spare yourself the inevitable “oh, but Trump”, “oh, but Brexit”, “oh, but Le Pen” nonsense. Labour is putting a cast-iron solid dud in front of the British people and they are going to deliver the message to Mr Corbyn that his own party has struggled to articulate.

The abject weakness of the Labour Party means that this election will produce the largest majority for an empty political project in British electoral history. Here is another rule of politics which pertains to Mrs May: if more grammar schools is the way you signal your direction then the direction you are heading in is nowhere. But going nowhere is preferable to going off a cliff, although at least if Mr Corbyn runs an authentic left-wing shouty campaign the discredit will be all his. The evidence suggests that the patience of Labour members is running out. He will not survive a big defeat. A moment will come, soon, when the Labour Party could salvage itself as a viable political organisation.

There is a shaft of optimism, strange to say. It is conceivable, when the economy turns and when leaving the EU proves to be dull and difficult and we have forgotten quite what the point was, that government will be caught up in daily stories of small events going awry. The post-election cabinet, with the best people leaving parliament or in exile, will be of very poor quality and the government will soon look empty of purpose.

An opposition led by a grown-up could be back in clover quickly. Yvette Cooper is being lined up. Keir Starmer is an option. Perhaps Chuka Umunna or Dan Jarvis. This is the question of this general election. It’s just the latest drama in the permanent Labour leadership election."

[Pretty Boy]

Aside from his many other problems Corbyn is a terrible public speaker. I watched his speech yesterday and it was just woefully delivered. The attempts to inject a bit passion and excitement were reminiscent of Iain Duncan Smith and his final speech at conference as Tory leader.

Of course his supporters will argue it should be about substance over style and I sympathise with that to an extent. We live in the world of the meme and the snapchat though. People like things in soundbites and that's the message they take away. It takes a skill to deliver a speech that says something and also contains enough easily digested pieces that people remember it. It takes an even greater skill to say practically nothing but have people believing they have heard something profound. Corbyn possesses neither skill from what I have seen and that's just another issue he has to overcome if he wants to leave a semi respectable base for the next leader to work with.

[Colr]

Aside from his many other problems Corbyn is a terrible public speaker. I watched his speech yesterday and it was just woefully delivered. The attempts to inject a bit passion and excitement were reminiscent of Iain Duncan Smith and his final speech at conference as Tory leader.

Of course his supporters will argue it should be about substance over style and I sympathise with that to an extent. We live in the world of the meme and the snapchat though. People like things in soundbites and that's the message they take away. It takes a skill to deliver a speech that says something and also contains enough easily digested pieces that people remember it. It takes an even greater skill to say practically nothing but have people believing they have heard something profound. Corbyn possesses neither skill from what I have seen and that's just another issue he has to overcome if he wants to leave a semi respectable base for the next leader to work with.

What substance is that? He had a couple of decent stand alone policy concepts but that usually undermined by his gob***** shadow chancellor.

[northstandhibby]

Aside from his many other problems Corbyn is a terrible public speaker. I watched his speech yesterday and it was just woefully delivered. The attempts to inject a bit passion and excitement were reminiscent of Iain Duncan Smith and his final speech at conference as Tory leader.

Of course his supporters will argue it should be about substance over style and I sympathise with that to an extent. We live in the world of the meme and the snapchat though. People like things in soundbites and that's the message they take away. It takes a skill to deliver a speech that says something and also contains enough easily digested pieces that people remember it. It takes an even greater skill to say practically nothing but have people believing they have heard something profound. Corbyn possesses neither skill from what I have seen and that's just another issue he has to overcome if he wants to leave a semi respectable base for the next leader to work with.

Virtually anyone will look like an improvement on Corbyn (and I hate criticising him but he never should have been in the position in the first place) however is that enough to halt the tory and snp bandwagons just having anyone else at the helm? I say no because we require a person of intellect with sharp political nous added with a sprinkle of charisma and I believe that person is David Milliband. Everything regarding him is suited to taking on the tories and the snp.

Apparently Yvette Cooper is the bookies fav to succeed Corbyn. While she would be the anyone taking over after Corbyn type improvement i don't believe she has the personality to resonate enough with the middle ground UK.

I'm really almost praying now the rumours of a comeback by D Milliband are correct.

glory glory