Labour Party Leadership

[RyeSloan]

Well each individual needs to make an objective assessment of what makes more sense, dont they? But in terms of mainstream media, its not a battle of equals. it's about which source represents power in society, who has the loudest voices. Clearly that isn't Bella Caledonia. A lot of their recent articles are refreshing because when I objectively analyse what I'm being told by the MSM it doesn't make any sense. And BC is eye opening quite often. For example, the mainstream orthodoxy you will hear repeated ad infinitum is 'Britons will never vote for a Left wing manifesto because they tried that in 1983 with Michael Foot and he lost'. This makes no sense to me for a number of reasons. Objectively, Labour lost that election because the three most senior figures at the top of the party Shirley Williams David Owen and Roy Jenkins walked out overnight and started up the SDP. Total chaos and pandemonium. Nobody knew who was in power, SDP were overnight Top of the opinion polls overnight, I remember it well. NOBODY could have won that election for Labour. But that's not the story that's told by the MSM, instead we see footage of Foot stumbling on the cenotaph steps again and again. And of course even if you dont accept that analysis, you just have to use logic. Are we really saying because one set of events happened over 30 years ago they will continue to happen forever? Will Hibs never win the scottish cup because they havent done for 114 years? It just makes no sense. But that's the orthodoxy we keep hearing. So when Kuennsberg et al remind me of Michael Foot ad nauseam, as if this is the major political lesson of the 20th century (when in fact it's Dont Have a Major Frontbench Split Immediately Before An Election), I switch off. Because I think I've seen through the crap I'm being fed. And that's just one policy example. If Bella Caledonia ever become the voice of power I might feel that way about them too. Chomsky said something about 'the most effective way to ensure compliance is to ensure lively political debate within a very narrow spectrum of beliefs'. I feel that's becoming more and more true with every day that passes. Edit: I wouldn't patronize any individual by accusing them of being brainwashed by orthodoxy because they don't agree with my politics. But when you look at society there is a dripdrip effect. People are influenced by The Express running daily headlines about immigrants stealing Christmas or raping chickens or whatever for years and years. Even if you don't read those papers we see them in the corner shop and the garage forecourt and they become the norm. Psychologically it's impossible to ignore. And I honestly believe it's the most powerful tool a state has at its disposal.

There is also however plenty written to repudiate the express view surely that has some counter weight though?

Also I take your points about Foot etc but the fact is that there was a huge vote for pretty much the opposite of what he stood for. Is there any evidence that Britain would ever vote in large numbers for a true left manifesto? I honestly don't think there is hence New Labours taking of the middle ground to win power. By its nature to win a majority you have to appeal to the majority and I think that's the point about Corbyn's move to the left, it will win him votes from people who are already sympathetic to such a move but at the same time remove any possibility that Labour will get the majority of people on side.

To me it's a bit of a lazy argument to simply lay the blame for that at the door of the MSM when it's much more likely that in reality those policies just don't appeal to enough people.

Maybe that's my internal bias due to the fact that proper left policies leave me rather cold but I just can't see the evidence to support the untapped desire of the electorate for a proper left government or mainstream party. Again that's not to say there isn't a vocal section of them that doesn't just that across the political spectrum they are not a large enough body to allow a party to focus on and still win power. And I think that's the PLP's point (Corbyn's leadership credentials aside)

[Hibbyradge]

No, 79 was the incumbent moderate Jim Callaghan. Foot stood in 83 and Kinnock in 87 and 92. The Kinnock of 87 was still regarded as something of a left winger (Foot's protege), still supported unilateral disarmement etc but had just fought an internal battle to expel Militant.

Also, your numbers are way off.

79 - Tory 43.9%, Lab 36.9%, Lib 13.8%

83 - Tory 42.4%, Lab 27.6%, SDP/Lib Alliance 25.4%

87 - Tory 42.2%, Lab 30.8%, SDP/Lib Alliance 22.6%

92 - Tory 41.9%, Lab 34.4%, Lib Dem 17.8%


I think polling shows people actually quite liked Ed Milliband's policies, they just didn't like him or at least didn't regard him as leadership material. For Corbyn you could probably ramp up that "leadership deficit" by about x100 and the thought of what the tabloids would do with his past links to Irish republicanism, radical Palestine, radical Islamism etc. should make anyone in Labour shudder.

I'm travelling today so lazily copied figures from one site without double checking. I quoted percentage of seats, not percentage of votes. :doh:

Of course you're right about 1979 and Callaghan.

I used this http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/uktable.htm

Spot on about Corbyn's past. If Miliband got slated for eating a bacon roll awkwardly...

[hibsbollah]

There is also however plenty written to repudiate the express view surely that has some counter weight though?

Also I take your points about Foot etc but the fact is that there was a huge vote for pretty much the opposite of what he stood for. Is there any evidence that Britain would ever vote in large numbers for a true left manifesto? I honestly don't think there is hence New Labours taking of the middle ground to win power. By its nature to win a majority you have to appeal to the majority and I think that's the point about Corbyn's move to the left, it will win him votes from people who are already sympathetic to such a move but at the same time remove any possibility that Labour will get the majority of people on side.

To me it's a bit of a lazy argument to simply lay the blame for that at the door of the MSM when it's much more likely that in reality those policies just don't appeal to enough people.

Maybe that's my internal bias due to the fact that proper left policies leave me rather cold but I just can't see the evidence to support the untapped desire of the electorate for a proper left government or mainstream party. Again that's not to say there isn't a vocal section of them that doesn't just that across the political spectrum they are not a large enough body to allow a party to focus on and still win power. And I think that's the PLP's point (Corbyn's leadership credentials aside)

I have no certainties at all. Can Corbyn win over a large amount of Tory voters to win swing 'target' seats in middle england? No. Could he win back a large amount of UKIP and Didnt Voters in deprived working class seats? Tough but possible. Could Corbyn win over enough of the 15% of the population who didnt care enough to vote last time round to make up the 8% deficit he currently has? It's mathematically possible IMO. But I'm not sure the data exists to tell whether these people live in sufficient numbers in the target swing seats to make a difference.

I also think it's definite and inarguable that in the next 3 years all sorts of things will change. But I don't know and neither does anyone else. Its people who bang on about impossible and inarguable and unelectable to whom I immediately zone out. Just vote for who you believe represents your views.

[High-On-Hibs]

Are media sources that aren't mainstream somehow immune from carrying an agenda and attempting to sway people. Does one who gets much of their info from say Bella Caledonia have a more objective view of the world than someone who reads The Guardian?

I rarely ever read Bella Caledonia to be honest. But on the few occasions that I have, they have always backed up their statements with evidence and statistics. It's not like a newspaper where they feed you a quote with absolutely nothing to back their statement up.

People are lazy. They like easy information that doesn't require much thought. Empty sound bites and quotes will almost always win over information that requires research and a high level of engagement.

It's a sad state of affairs, but it's the reality that we live in.

I don't say what I say because i'm trying to patronize people. I say it, because i'm genuinely trying to get through to people. I don't just expect them to take my word for it however. I do however expect them to do their own research which goes beyond simply what they hear on the TV or read in their favourite newspaper. Questioning the world you live in is a healthy thing to do and I encourage everyone to do it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I have no certainties at all. Can Corbyn win over a large amount of Tory voters to win swing 'target' seats in middle england? No. Could he win back a large amount of UKIP and Didnt Voters in deprived working class seats? Tough but possible. Could Corbyn win over enough of the 15% of the population who didnt care enough to vote last time round to make up the 8% deficit he currently has? It's mathematically possible IMO. But I'm not sure the data exists to tell whether these people live in sufficient numbers in the target swing seats to make a difference.

I also think it's definite and inarguable that in the next 3 years all sorts of things will change. But I don't know and neither does anyone else. Its people who bang on about impossible and inarguable and unelectable to whom I immediately zone out. Just vote for who you believe represents your views.

... and in a fptp system, pretty irrelevant.

Agree about the "impossible" etc though. Even a few weeks before the 2015 election, most people thought >50 SNP MPs was impossible.

[High-On-Hibs]

... and in a fptp system, pretty irrelevant.

Agree about the "impossible" etc though. Even a few weeks before the 2015 election, most people thought >50 SNP MPs was impossible.

I remember when the SNP membership first shot up. It more than trebled in the space of a month. Yet people were saying pretty much what they're saying now about Labour. Suggesting that it was some sort of membership "bubble" that wouldn't have much reflection on the election results. Then they went on to take 56 out of the 59 available seats at Westminster.

I still believe Corbyn will surprise a lot of people.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I remember when the SNP membership first shot up. It more than trebled in the space of a month. Yet people were saying pretty much what they're saying now about Labour. Suggesting that it was some sort of membership "bubble" that wouldn't have much reflection on the election results. Then they went on to take 56 out of the 59 available seats at Westminster.

I still believe Corbyn will surprise a lot of people.


I dont, he wont ever be PM, i am very confident of that (although of course i dont know that).

I dont remembrt people talking about the nat surge as a bubble, ive never heard anyone talking about it deflating.

I dont think labour surge in members is a bubble, i think it was a lot of annoyed, disenchanted youg folk trying to find an alternative. And i dont mean that critically.

But when these ideals cant even win over their own party, they wont be able to attract non-labour voters that they need to win a general election.

[Hibbyradge]

I still believe Corbyn will surprise a lot of people.

We'll, he might, but it would be a political surprise of gargantuan proportions.

On 13 July 2011, the corresponding day in the last parliament to today, Labour were 8 points ahead of the Tories, 43 - 35, and they lost by 6.5 points.

Today, the Tories are 8 ahead. 30 -38.

If anyone could offer a serious, well thought through strategy as to how Jezza is going to make up the nett 16 points to catch up with where Miliband was at this stage, then go on to turn round the 6.5% losing margin, then I'll give him some credibility.

"Something might change" just isn't good enough.

I think it's more likely that Labour will be regularly polling percentages in the 20s, rather than the high 40s.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Agree.

If a split does happen, will be fascinating to see what happens.

[lucky]

As an active member of Labour I believe Corbyn will be re-elected as leader and will run a very good election campaign. But Labour generally only come to power when the Tories go to far with their policies. Time will tell how May performs but her cabinet appointments don't bare well for a centrist government. If the Progress element of Lablour leave it won't damage Labour at this stage, if a split comes it depends on who leaves and who get custody of the name and history. A new New Labour will fail miserably there's a demand for change and trying to turn the clock back to 1997 is not going to bought by the electorate

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As an active member of Labour I believe Corbyn will be re-elected as leader and will run a very good election campaign. But Labour generally only come to power when the Tories go to far with their policies. Time will tell how May performs but her cabinet appointments don't bare well for a centrist government. If the Progress element of Lablour leave it won't damage Labour at this stage, if a split comes it depends on who leaves and who get custody of the name and history. A new New Labour will fail miserably there's a demand for change and trying to turn the clock back to 1997 is not going to bought by the electorate

A sevco party... "we're the same old party, honest guv"

[Colr]

I paid my £3 to vote last time. Does that still count for this election or do I need to shell out £25 this time?

I've read conflicting accounts of the process.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I paid my £3 to vote last time. Does that still count for this election or do I need to shell out £25 this time?

I've read conflicting accounts of the process.

Who would you vote for, if you dont mind me asking?

[High-On-Hibs]

Agree.

If a split does happen, will be fascinating to see what happens.

If Labour split, they will never win another election. Those planning to split the party know this full well. They know exactly what they're doing.

[JeMeSouviens]

I paid my £3 to vote last time. Does that still count for this election or do I need to shell out £25 this time?

I've read conflicting accounts of the process.

I think you're supposed to shell out again. The Independent has a handy guide to save you money though :wink:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-leadership-contest-vote-jeremy-corbyn-new-members-momentum-vote-avoid-paying-25-fee-a7133851.html

[JeMeSouviens]

Is this for real? They won't let their members meet? Stalin would be proud* :rolleyes:


Suspension of meetings: our AGM will no longer take place on 21 July.

Dear XXXXX

We have received instructions from the Scottish Labour Party that all local meetings, except those called explicitly and solely to agree nominations for the upcoming leadership election, are to be suspended until after the leadership election is completed.

This means that regrettably our AGM scheduled for 21 July will no longer be taking place.

Full details of the leadership election process should be released shortly. Apologies on behalf of your CLP Executive for this further postponement, which is outwith our control. We will continue to keep you informed on developments.

Best wishes,

Duncan Hothersall
Chair, Edinburgh Southern CLP
Margaret Graham
Secretary, Edinburgh Southern CLP




* hyperbole, but only just! :wink:

[Colr]

Who would you vote for, if you dont mind me asking?

I need to find out more about this Jones character. I'm not wild about Angela Eagle but she's better than that middle class twat Corbyn.

Mind you, I voted Liz Kendall last time so that shows how in step I m with the rest of the membership!!

Just passed Nigel Farage in the street BTW!!

[High-On-Hibs]

I need to find out more about this Jones character. I'm not wild about Angela Eagle but she's better than that middle class twat Corbyn.

Mind you, I voted Liz Kendall last time so that shows how in step I m with the rest of the membership!!

Just passed Nigel Farage in the street BTW!!

Supported the benefit cuts, tuition fee rises and NHS privatization. The perfect character to replace "that middle class twat" Corbyn.

[Colr]

Supported the benefit cuts, tuition fee rises and NHS privatization. The perfect character to replace "that middle class twat" Corbyn.

She would not have the party trailing 8% in the polls. Corbyn's Labour party will deliver the Tories. He's a theorist and a protestor who will deliver nothing for the working class people of this country.

[Colr]

Up in the air again.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/labour-donor-to-mount-legal-challenge-over-leadership-ballot

Personally, I think Corbyn has to be allowed to stand.

[High-On-Hibs]

She would not have the party trailing 8% in the polls. Corbyn's Labour party will deliver the Tories. He's a theorist and a protestor who will deliver nothing for the working class people of this country.

I was referring to Owen Jones. Eagle couldn't win a game of Buckaroo.

Corbyn won't deliver the Tories, because the Tories are about to shoot themselves in the foot big time. The working class will only continue to back the Tories for so long until they realize that things are actually getting worse for them.

[High-On-Hibs]

Up in the air again.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/labour-donor-to-mount-legal-challenge-over-leadership-ballot

Personally, I think Corbyn has to be allowed to stand.

Sorry, but it's pathetic. They're showing themselves up big time as anti-democratic. There is absolutely no chance that Labour would be more successful under any of them.

[Colr]

I was referring to Owen Jones. Eagle couldn't win a game of Buckaroo.

Corbyn won't deliver the Tories, because the Tories are about to shoot themselves in the foot big time. The working class will only continue to back the Tories for so long until they realize that things are actually getting worse for them.

We'll see!!

[Colr]

I was referring to Owen Jones. Eagle couldn't win a game of Buckaroo.

Corbyn won't deliver the Tories, because the Tories are about to shoot themselves in the foot big time. The working class will only continue to back the Tories for so long until they realize that things are actually getting worse for them.

I thought you were referring to Liz Kendall!!

I'm not wild about Eagle. I was especially disappointed in her pronouncements on gender which, once again, showed that Labour still doesn't get equality right. Yvette Cooper had the same problem.

I'd never heard of Owen Jones until now!!

[Colr]

I thought you were referring to Liz Kendall!!

I'm not wild about Eagle. I was especially disappointed in her pronouncements on gender which, once again, showed that Labour still doesn't get equality right. Yvette Cooper had the same problem.

I'd never heard of Owen Jones until now!!

Owen Smith, sorry.

Although that mistake tells you something!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Up in the air again.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/labour-donor-to-mount-legal-challenge-over-leadership-ballot

Personally, I think Corbyn has to be allowed to stand.


Admittedly these are from 2015, but it is fairly clear that, unless the NEC decide to change the rules, Corbyn is on the paper.


Nomination

i. In the case of a vacancy for leader or deputy
leader, each nomination must be supported
by 15 per cent of the Commons members of
the PLP. Nominations not attaining this
threshold shall be null and void.

ii. Where there is no vacancy, nominations may
be sought by potential challengers each year
prior to the annual session of Party
conference. In this case any nomination must
be supported by 20 per cent of the Commons
members of the PLP. Nominations not
attaining this threshold shall be null and void.

[Hibbyradge]

I was referring to Owen Jones. Eagle couldn't win a game of Buckaroo.

Corbyn won't deliver the Tories, because the Tories are about to shoot themselves in the foot big time. The working class will only continue to back the Tories for so long until they realize that things are actually getting worse for them.

You ARE SWP!

I knew it.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Owen Smith, sorry.

Although that mistake tells you something!!

Was it Owen Tuder-Jones that played for Hibs? I guess he wasnt the most memorable person either.

[High-On-Hibs]

You ARE SWP!

I knew it.

:yawn: Just join the Conservative Party and get it over with already. You lot have nowhere else to do.

[Hibbyradge]

:yawn: Just join the Conservative Party and get it over with already. You lot have nowhere else to do.

Cool story Bro.

[snooky]

Was it Owen Tuder-Jones that played for Hibs? I guess he wasnt the most memorable person either.

Aye Tent Pole Tudor he was.

[High-On-Hibs]

As someone who supports Scottish Independence, it's not in my best interests for Labour to have a strong leader. However, I respect Corbyn. He talks about things that other politicians aren't brave enough to talk about. We have multi national industries crushing local competitors who contribute their fair share of tax to the public purse. As a result, local authorities have even less money to spend on vital public services. Goods may come cheaper on Amazon than anywhere else, but the long term costs are utterly disastrous. At least a major figure in politics is talking about it and not just ignoring it.

[Hibbyradge]

Kinnock secret recording at PLP.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/secret-recording-neil-kinnock-jeremy-corbyn-step-down-speech-to-mps-in-full

[marinello59]

As someone who supports Scottish Independence, it's not in my best interests for Labour to have a strong leader. However, I respect Corbyn. He talks about things that other politicians aren't brave enough to talk about. We have multi national industries crushing local competitors who contribute their fair share of tax to the public purse. As a result, local authorities have even less money to spend on vital public services. Goods may come cheaper on Amazon than anywhere else, but the long term costs are utterly disastrous. At least a major figure in politics is talking about it and not just ignoring it.

As someone who supports Scottish Independence it is in my interest to have a strong Labour leader both up here and in Westminster. Like it or not we are still presently part of the UK and Id rather see it made to work better for us all whilst we are.

[Pretty Boy]

As someone who supports Scottish Independence it is in my interest to have a strong Labour leader both up here and in Westminster. Like it or not we are still presently part of the UK and Id rather see it made to work better for us all whilst we are.

:agree:

[Betty Boop]

Kinoch secret recording at PLP.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/secret-recording-neil-kinnock-jeremy-corbyn-step-down-speech-to-mps-in-full

Lord Kinnoch who lost two elections, one to John Major. Says it all really.

[Hibbyradge]

Lord Kinnoch who lost two elections, one to John Major. Says it all really.

Hmm. You never struck me as a Blairite. Every day is a school day.

Kinnock certainly knows what it takes to lose an election and he can see it magnified in spades by Corbyn.

[Betty Boop]

Hmm. You never struck me as a Blairite. Every day is a school day.

Kinnock certainly knows what it takes to lose an election and he can see it magnified in spades by Corbyn.

You're havering now. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

As someone who supports Scottish Independence it is in my interest to have a strong Labour leader both up here and in Westminster. Like it or not we are still presently part of the UK and Id rather see it made to work better for us all whilst we are.

I'd rather have a strong Labour leader who wouldn't throw the UK to the Tories, all because he didn't like the way Scotland voted.

http://news.sky.com/story/1475500/miliband-id-rather-lose-than-do-snp-deal

[marinello59]

I'd rather have a strong Labour leader who wouldn't throw the UK to the Tories, all because he didn't like the way Scotland voted.

http://news.sky.com/story/1475500/miliband-id-rather-lose-than-do-snp-deal

He was trying to win as many Labour seats as possible against a backdrop of Sturgeon saying vote SNP if you wanted a non -Tory goverment. What else could he really say at the time, suggesting in any way that he would let the SNP pull his strings was going to be nothing but a vote loser in England. As it was he found a few other ways to lose votes anyway.
And those of us who did vote SNP got a Tory government after all.

[ronaldo7]

He was trying to win as many Labour seats as possible against a backdrop of Sturgeon saying vote SNP if you wanted a non -Tory goverment. What else could he really say at the time, suggesting in any way that he would let the SNP pull his strings was going to be nothing but a vote loser in England. As it was he found a few other ways to lose votes anyway.
And those of us who did vote SNP got a Tory government after all.

We'll continue to get a Tory gov for some years if we stay in the Union of 4.

He was all over the place when it came to the SNP. The Tories used it to their advantage, and it seems the shires won't be going back to Labour in the near future.

[Hibbyradge]

You're havering now. :greengrin

Maybe suggesting that you're a Blairgowrie was a stretch too far :wink:, but if you don't think Kinnock is is well placed to talk about what it takes to win GEs because he lost twice, then I assume you would take the word of the one man who won 3 in a row.

I agree with them both regarding JC obviously.

Edit: I liked that autocorrect so much, I'm going to leave it! You're a Blairgowrie! :greengrin:

[High-On-Hibs]

And those of us who did vote SNP got a Tory government after all.

Which we would have been landed with anyway, even if every single voter in Scotland had voted Labour.

[marinello59]

Which we would have been landed with anyway, even if every single voter in Scotland had voted Labour.

I know.
Sturgeon's pre-vote calculations were just a wee bit out there weren't they? Sadly.

[jacomo]

As someone who supports Scottish Independence, it's not in my best interests for Labour to have a strong leader. However, I respect Corbyn. He talks about things that other politicians aren't brave enough to talk about. We have multi national industries crushing local competitors who contribute their fair share of tax to the public purse. As a result, local authorities have even less money to spend on vital public services. Goods may come cheaper on Amazon than anywhere else, but the long term costs are utterly disastrous. At least a major figure in politics is talking about it and not just ignoring it.

The thing is, you need to do more than talk about them. Changing the world in a democracy means holding power in parliament to make policy and laws.

Corbyn is a career campaigner. But he's not been an effective parliamentarian. As leader of the PLP, he has to be.

[High-On-Hibs]

I know.
Sturgeon's pre-vote calculations were just a wee bit out there weren't they? Sadly.

Hers and everybody elses (including all polling data). But lets just make it look like she was the only one to get it wrong.


The thing is, you need to do more than talk about them. Changing the world in a democracy means holding power in parliament to make policy and laws.

Corbyn is a career campaigner. But he's not been an effective parliamentarian. As leader of the PLP, he has to be.

It's hard to be an effective parliamentarian when your own MPs have the knifes out right from the very start. Just because they decided to include a genuine left wing candidate on the leadership ballot (to appease left wing Labour members) which he won by a landslide majority. I have absolutely no doubt that if this backstabbing hadn't been going on, Corbyn would be fairing considerably better than he is. But as it is, his own MPs have given the media all the ammo it requires to put people (not off Corbyn, but off the Labour Party as a whole).

They're not concerned that Labour can't win. They're concerned that Labour actually could win under Jeremy Corbyn. So are doing their damn hardest to ensure he has no chance.

[Hibbyradge]

Hers and everybody elses (including all polling data). But lets just make it look like she was the only one to get it wrong.




They're not concerned that Labour can't win. They're concerned that Labour actually could win under Jeremy Corbyn. So are doing their damn hardest to ensure he has no chance.

Wow.

All those career politicians who you've learned to despise (unless they're SNP presumably) are leaving in case their seats remain safe under Jezza?

This includes MPs from the left and right of the party and some of his closest, most trusted left wing advisors.

Politicians who don't want their seats anymore because their party might get power. Whatever next? :faf:

[High-On-Hibs]

Wow.

All those career politicians who you've learned to despise (unless they're SNP presumably) are leaving in case their seats remain safe under Jezza?

This includes MPs from the left and right of the party and some of his closest, most trusted left wing advisors.

Politicians who don't want their seats anymore because their party might get power. Whatever next? :faf:

When will you learn that what politicians say and what politicians actually do are 2 separate things? A career politician is somebody that tells the electorate what they think they want to hear. It isn't necessarily in line with their own personal views. There are plenty of "left wing" politicians within the Labour Party who aren't. It's just a way of scooping up votes in constituencies that traditionally vote left. They just have to come out every now and then and state how left wing they are, because they know the vast majority of the electorate that they are preaching too are paying absolutely no attention to the way their own MP is voting in the House of Commons on a weekly basis.

Politicians who say they don't want their seats anymore, but cling onto them anyway? :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

When will you learn that what politicians say and what politicians actually do are 2 separate things? A career politician is somebody that tells the electorate what they think they want to hear. It isn't necessarily in line with their own personal views. There are plenty of "left wing" politicians within the Labour Party who aren't. It's just a way of scooping up votes in constituencies that traditionally vote left. They just have to come out every now and then and state how left wing they are, because they know the vast majority of the electorate that they are preaching too are paying absolutely no attention to the way their own MP is voting in the House of Commons on a weekly basis.

Politicians who say they don't want their seats anymore, but cling onto them anyway? :rolleyes:

:top marks

Every single argument you've made is an argument from ignorance. There is nothing concrete to back it up, but also little to disprove it. And you've added a hint of condescension to give it some more credibility.

You sure are sticking it to the man! Keep it up, it's fun.

I remember a campaign over jobs in the 90s when a deal was reached that there would be no compulsory redundancies due to new technology hitting the Civil Service.

The Trots opposed what was a good assurance for members on the basis that management might renege on it at some point in the future. :faf:

[High-On-Hibs]

Finally. Somebody in Labour in Scotland (Neil Findlay) actually talking some sense.

[marinello59]

Hers and everybody elses (including all polling data). But lets just make it look like she was the only one to get it wrong.



Did I say she was the only one to get ity wrong? It seems that as well as assuming what others think, you are now moving on to making up things that they have said. Maybe you should just stick to ranting away to yourself as you certainly aren't here to debate anything with others. Having strongly held unpopular views isn't a bad thing. Being a bigot isn't going to win over others though.

[RyeSloan]

Finally. Somebody in Labour in Scotland (Neil Findlay) actually talking some sense.

Pray tell what has he said?

I assume that this is the same Neil Findlay who was a leading light in the Campaign for Socialism (now effectively subsumed by Momentum), is known for his support of Corbyn and who called Surgeon a liar?

[High-On-Hibs]

Did I say she was the only one to get ity wrong? It seems that as well as assuming what others think, you are now moving on to making up things that they have said. Maybe you should just stick to ranting away to yourself as you certainly aren't here to debate anything with others. Having strongly held unpopular views isn't a bad thing. Being a bigot isn't going to win over others though.

Bigot? What a pathetic statement to make. I don't have a problem with other people holding different views. What I do have a problem with is when they try and shut down other peoples views, without providing anything to support their own views. If you want a sensible date, then actually present something meaningful to the debate to back up the claims you use to support your own side of the argument. Otherwise nobody is going to take it seriously.

[RyeSloan]

Bigot? What a pathetic statement to make. I don't have a problem with other people holding different views. What I do have a problem with is when they try and shut down other peoples views, without providing anything to support their own views. If you want a sensible date, then actually present something meaningful to the debate to back up the claims you use to support your own side of the argument. Otherwise nobody is going to take it seriously.

Take some of your own medicine then...of the 172 who voted against Corbyn how many are the career politicians who only say the occasional comment to pull the wool over the electorate eyes? You could also explain why those same people who seem to care only about their seat would be so scared of Corbyn winning and them retaining their seat...as surely they wouldn't care what was said to get the win as they would be safe and could happily vote any way they wanted in the Commons because no one pays a blind bit of attention anyway.

I await you presenting something meaningful to back up your assertions on this thread.

[#FromTheCapital]

What I do have a problem with is when they try and shut down other peoples views, without providing anything to support their own views. If you want a sensible date, then actually present something meaningful to the debate to back up the claims you use to support your own side of the argument. Otherwise nobody is going to take it seriously.

You do realise you just gave a perfect summary of your own behaviour in that rant?

[jacomo]

Hers and everybody elses (including all polling data). But lets just make it look like she was the only one to get it wrong.



It's hard to be an effective parliamentarian when your own MPs have the knifes out right from the very start. Just because they decided to include a genuine left wing candidate on the leadership ballot (to appease left wing Labour members) which he won by a landslide majority. I have absolutely no doubt that if this backstabbing hadn't been going on, Corbyn would be fairing considerably better than he is. But as it is, his own MPs have given the media all the ammo it requires to put people (not off Corbyn, but off the Labour Party as a whole).

They're not concerned that Labour can't win. They're concerned that Labour actually could win under Jeremy Corbyn. So are doing their damn hardest to ensure he has no chance.

I get the impression that you just want an argument rather than find common ground. Most of your posts are dismissive or condescending. You seem to hold your own opinions in very high regard and your opponents to be 100% wrong - no grey areas, no credit where it's due, no nuance.

This is, sadly, where Labour finds itself now.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

When will you learn that what politicians say and what politicians actually do are 2 separate things? A career politician is somebody that tells the electorate what they think they want to hear. It isn't necessarily in line with their own personal views. There are plenty of "left wing" politicians within the Labour Party who aren't. It's just a way of scooping up votes in constituencies that traditionally vote left. They just have to come out every now and then and state how left wing they are, because they know the vast majority of the electorate that they are preaching too are paying absolutely no attention to the way their own MP is voting in the House of Commons on a weekly basis.

Politicians who say they don't want their seats anymore, but cling onto them anyway? :rolleyes:


Surely a career politician is a politician for whom politics is their chosen career?

It is often derogatory because it characterises those who lack experience and perspective and aree very much part of party machinery.

[Just Alf]

Bigot? What a pathetic statement to make. I don't have a problem with other people holding different views. What I do have a problem with is when they try and shut down other peoples views, without providing anything to support their own views. If you want a sensible date, then actually present something meaningful to the debate to back up the claims you use to support your own side of the argument. Otherwise nobody is going to take it seriously.
This post is amazing HOH!

I feel.it could have been posted by almost everyone youve had "discussions " but pointed at you!!! Im guessing you dont do irony?

and appologies in advance, i feel ive dipped way down to your level and made a remark pointed at your posting style rather than addtess a particular argument of yours ( you know all about that as well though!)

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Bigot? What a pathetic statement to make. I don't have a problem with other people holding different views. What I do have a problem with is when they try and shut down other peoples views, without providing anything to support their own views. If you want a sensible date, then actually present something meaningful to the debate to back up the claims you use to support your own side of the argument. Otherwise nobody is going to take it seriously.

😂

That is brilliant. You are definitely a parody poster eh!

[jacomo]

Surely a career politician is a politician for whom politics is their chosen career?

It is often derogatory because it characterises those who lack experience and perspective and aree very much part of party machinery.

Corbyn's been an MP for three decades. He's definitely a career politician.

[Pretty Boy]

Corbyn's been an MP for three decades. He's definitely a career politician.

And before that he was secretary of his local CLP whilst an elected councillor. Before that he was a trade union rep.

You couldn't really get more of a career (Labour) politician than that. Not that it's relevant if someone is competent I couldn't care if they'd worked the 9-5 for years or been in politics all their days. It's just a bit of an odd thing that Corbyn supporters want to use the phrase as an insult so often.

[hibsbollah]

I get the impression that you just want an argument rather than find common ground. Most of your posts are dismissive or condescending. You seem to hold your own opinions in very high regard and your opponents to be 100% wrong - no grey areas, no credit where it's due, no nuance.

This is, sadly, where Labour finds itself now.

No nuance? That's a very interesting comment. Ironically 'nuance' is the very thing that Corbyns policies offer, a departure from the narrow set of choices that we have in our little 'democracy', and it's the policies, not the man himself, that's so worrying to the establishment and 'career politicians' (to use the correct use of the term, those wedded to the party machinery and the Westminster hack/lobby cabal. Saying Corbyn is a career politician because he's been a MP for a long time just shows a misunderstanding of the term.) The opposite of Nuance is fascism, as someone rightly once said.

I'm not quite sure why high on hibs is getting such a hard time.
If anything there's more condescending and rudeness directed at him than the other way round.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No nuance? That's a very interesting comment. Ironically 'nuance' is the very thing that Corbyns policies offer, a departure from the narrow set of choices that we have in our little 'democracy', and it's the policies, not the man himself, that's so worrying to the establishment and 'career politicians' (to use the correct use of the term, those wedded to the party machinery and the Westminster hack/lobby cabal. Saying Corbyn is a career politician because he's been a MP for a long time just shows a misunderstanding of the term.) The opposite of Nuance is fascism, as someone rightly once said.

I'm not quite sure why high on hibs is getting such a hard time.
If anything there's more condescending and rudeness directed at him than the other way round.

I disagree, i would say corbyns backgroubd is exactly that of a lefty career politician.

[jacomo]

No nuance? That's a very interesting comment. Ironically 'nuance' is the very thing that Corbyns policies offer, a departure from the narrow set of choices that we have in our little 'democracy', and it's the policies, not the man himself, that's so worrying to the establishment and 'career politicians' (to use the correct use of the term, those wedded to the party machinery and the Westminster hack/lobby cabal. Saying Corbyn is a career politician because he's been a MP for a long time just shows a misunderstanding of the term.) The opposite of Nuance is fascism, as someone rightly once said.

I'm not quite sure why high on hibs is getting such a hard time.
If anything there's more condescending and rudeness directed at him than the other way round.

What are Corbyn's policies? Actual policies - laws, tax changes, that sort of thing.

I'm a pretty avid follower of politics, and I will be honest with you - I have only a very flimsy idea of what a Corbyn government would actually do.

For example - I can assume he would renationalise the railways, but how? Immediately, or as franchises come up? Would there continue to be a split between infrastructure and train operators, or one company?

How about the NHS? How would it be organised?

Even Trident was clear cut, but now there seems to be an idea to build new subs but without the nuclear missiles?

This stuff matters.

You may well be dismissing me as a right wing stooge. This couldn't be further from the truth.

[hibsbollah]

I disagree, i would say corbyns backgroubd is exactly that of a lefty career politician.

He's followed an ideological path vastly at odds with his party leadership for 30 years. There's no way he can be described as one.

But really who cares? It's just semantics, not policy.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

He's followed an ideological path vastly at odds with his party leadership for 30 years. There's no way he can be described as one.

But really who cares? It's just semantics, not policy.

Agree, its semantics.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What are Corbyn's policies? Actual policies - laws, tax changes, that sort of thing.

I'm a pretty avid follower of politics, and I will be honest with you - I have only a very flimsy idea of what a Corbyn government would actually do.

For example - I can assume he would renationalise the railways, but how? Immediately, or as franchises come up? Would there continue to be a split between infrastructure and train operators, or one company?

How about the NHS? How would it be organised?

Even Trident was clear cut, but now there seems to be an idea to build new subs but without the nuclear missiles?

This stuff matters.

You may well be dismissing me as a right wing stooge. This couldn't be further from the truth.


Iys a fair question.

Im not sure. I think he is more used to arguing against thinhs than for them.

[hibsbollah]

What are Corbyn's policies? Actual policies - laws, tax changes, that sort of thing.

I'm a pretty avid follower of politics, and I will be honest with you - I have only a very flimsy idea of what a Corbyn government would actually do.

For example - I can assume he would renationalise the railways, but how? Immediately, or as franchises come up? Would there continue to be a split between infrastructure and train operators, or one company?

How about the NHS? How would it be organised?

Even Trident was clear cut, but now there seems to be an idea to build new subs but without the nuclear missiles?

This stuff matters.

You may well be dismissing me as a right wing stooge. This couldn't be further from the truth.

I wasn't dismissing anyone as anything. I dont even know/remember what your political position is to be honest...There are quite a few folk that jump on these threads to indulge in trolling/misrepresentation to indulge their own petty smugness but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :greengrin
And I agree with you. Policy is what matters. If youre interested, Go straight to Red Labour or his own webpage or look at the financial bill that McDonnels been working on. Obviously at this stage of the parliamentary cycle no party is going to tell you 'How' but if I recall correctly you will certainly find out 'what' and 'why'.

[jacomo]

I wasn't dismissing anyone as anything. I dont even know/remember what your political position is to be honest...There are quite a few folk that jump on these threads to indulge in trolling/misrepresentation to indulge their own petty smugness but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :greengrin
And I agree with you. Policy is what matters. If youre interested, Go straight to Red Labour or his own webpage or look at the financial bill that McDonnels been working on. Obviously at this stage of the parliamentary cycle no party is going to tell you 'How' but if I recall correctly you will certainly find out 'what' and 'why'.

You are hopefully familiar enough with my posts on the main board to know I'm not a troll. :greengrin:

Cards on table, I live in England, I'm a Labour member, I voted Corbyn.

I've seen Corbyn speak many times before he became Leader, and he's essentially the same - a campaigner.

Leader of the PLP is a different job. He deserved his chance, and he's been the catalyst for a surge in enthusiasm. But I don't think he's the right man for the job.

[Hibbyradge]

You are hopefully familiar enough with my posts on the main board to know I'm not a troll. :greengrin:

Cards on table, I live in England, I'm a Labour member, I voted Corbyn.

I've seen Corbyn speak many times before he became Leader, and he's essentially the same - a campaigner.

Leader of the PLP is a different job. He deserved his chance, and he's been the catalyst for a surge in enthusiasm. But I don't think he's the right man for the job.

Away and join the Tories where you belong! :tee hee:

[hibsbollah]

You are hopefully familiar enough with my posts on the main board to know I'm not a troll. :greengrin:

Cards on table, I live in England, I'm a Labour member, I voted Corbyn.

I've seen Corbyn speak many times before he became Leader, and he's essentially the same - a campaigner.

Leader of the PLP is a different job. He deserved his chance, and he's been the catalyst for a surge in enthusiasm. But I don't think he's the right man for the job.

Which is obviously fair enough. Id imagine there might be a few like yourself with well thought out reasons why a different leader would be better. Id personally wish him well and goodbye if i thought he had shifted the terms of POLITICAL debate to include policy areas that have been off limits up to now. Owen Smiths public support for rail nationalisation yesterday shows that in some ways Corbyn has already done his job in that respect. Baby steps away from the broken Blairist legacy he inherited. The problem is, what do you do with the massive mandate he got less than twelve months ago? Can we in all good conscience just ignore the implications of ignoring the mandate? Testing that mandate is still there is a good thing, bring on the election. But the biggest story for me is that 14/32 of the NEC actually believed Corbyn should have been off the ballot altogether! Which says to me they have total disregard for the membership.

[Hibbyradge]

Which is obviously fair enough. Id imagine there might be a few like yourself with well thought out reasons why a different leader would be better. Id personally wish him well and goodbye if i thought he had shifted the terms of POLITICAL debate to include policy areas that have been off limits up to now. Owen Smiths public support for rail nationalisation yesterday shows that in some ways Corbyn has already done his job in that respect. Baby steps away from the broken Blairist legacy he inherited. The problem is, what do you do with the massive mandate he got less than twelve months ago? Can we in all good conscience just ignore the implications of ignoring the mandate? Testing that mandate is still there is a good thing, bring on the election. But the biggest story for me is that 14/32 of the NEC actually believed Corbyn should have been off the ballot altogether! Which says to me they have total disregard for the membership.

It's easy to understand why people view Corbyn's "mandate" with suspicion. Allowing anybody to vote for the leader in return for £3, was madness.

One of the right wing newspapers, the Telegraph I think, actively encouraged its readers to do exactly that. Trots, people who had previously been thrown out of the Party and other dafties did the same.

There's nothing democratic about that although we'll never know how much it affected the final result.

It's also important to remember that the MPs were elected by millions of constituents, not just the Party membership.

One final point. Corbyn is about to ignore Party policy on Trident by voting against its renewal. Isn't that a blatant breach of democracy too?

[jacomo]

It's easy to understand why people view Corbyn's "mandate" with suspicion. Allowing anybody to vote for the leader in return for £3, was madness.

One of the right wing newspapers, the Telegraph I think, actively encouraged its readers to do exactly that. Trots, people who had previously been thrown out of the Party and other dafties did the same.

There's nothing democratic about that although we'll never know how much it affected the final result.

It's also important to remember that the MPs were elected by millions of constituents, not just the Party membership.

True, although I think this 'infiltration' can be overstated. Labour have experienced a surge in membership over the past year, and Corbyn has been largely responsible.

This is where it is so messy - Corbyn does have a popular mandate. The PLP have tried to undermine him from the start... people like Chuka Umunna and Tristram Hunt who resigned from the shadow cabinet as soon as Corbyn became leader.

For all that people complain of a 'faction' around Corbyn, there is also a right wing faction who are just as intolerant of other opinions. People like Tessa Jowell, who think that power is the only thing that matters - never mind if that Labour government starts waging war and privatising public services.

That is not a Labour Party I want to be part of. I - like thousands of others - walked away from the party in disgust at what was being done.

I am glad that Labour is finding its principles again, but they need to be translated into workable policies by a competent and effective opposition. It's this second part of the equation where Labour is falling down.

[Hibbyradge]

True, although I think this 'infiltration' can be overstated. Labour have experienced a surge in membership over the past year, and Corbyn has been largely responsible.

This is where it is so messy - Corbyn does have a popular mandate. The PLP have tried to undermine him from the start... people like Chuka Umunna and Tristram Hunt who resigned from the shadow cabinet as soon as Corbyn became leader.

For all that people complain of a 'faction' around Corbyn, there is also a right wing faction who are just as intolerant of other opinions. People like Tessa Jowell, who think that power is the only thing that matters - never mind if that Labour government starts waging war and privatising public services.

That is not a Labour Party I want to be part of. I - like thousands of others - walked away from the party in disgust at what was being done.

I am glad that Labour is finding its principles again, but they need to be translated into workable policies by a competent and effective opposition. It's this second part of the equation where Labour is falling down.

I agree although I do believe that having power must be the priority.

There's not much point (grammar?) holding the strongest principles and having a glorious vision of a socially fair society if you don't have the opportunity to create it.

Also, I'd far rather a right wing Labour government than any variety of Conservative administration.

The people who say they're the same thing either didn't live through the Thatcher years or have forgotten them. It gves me the shivers just thinking about her.

[snooky]

I agree although I do believe that having power must be the priority.

There's not much point (grammar?) holding the strongest principles and having a glorious vision of a socially fair society if you don't have the opportunity to create it.

Also, I'd far rather a right wing Labour government than any variety of Conservative administration.

The people who say they're the same thing either didn't live through the Thatcher years or have forgotten them. It gves me the shivers just thinking about her.
Her reincarnation has just arrived. Shiver me timbers.

[Pretty Boy]

True, although I think this 'infiltration' can be overstated. Labour have experienced a surge in membership over the past year, and Corbyn has been largely responsible.

This is where it is so messy - Corbyn does have a popular mandate. The PLP have tried to undermine him from the start... people like Chuka Umunna and Tristram Hunt who resigned from the shadow cabinet as soon as Corbyn became leader.

For all that people complain of a 'faction' around Corbyn, there is also a right wing faction who are just as intolerant of other opinions. People like Tessa Jowell, who think that power is the only thing that matters - never mind if that Labour government starts waging war and privatising public services.

That is not a Labour Party I want to be part of. I - like thousands of others - walked away from the party in disgust at what was being done.

I am glad that Labour is finding its principles again, but they need to be translated into workable policies by a competent and effective opposition. It's this second part of the equation where Labour is falling down.

The parts in bold are roughly where I am.

I joined Labour as youth member at 16 and was a full member and relatively active in my local branches until about 4 years ago. I was also involved with both the Labour and socialist societies whilst at uni. In addition to that I was involved with a union as soon as I started work and was again active I being so. Giving up that membership was a big decision and not one I took lightly.

Within those circles you see both sides to every picture. There are those who are power mad and would sell their soul for a shot at being in charge. Equally there are those who are so wrapped up in ideology and theory that any practicalities go out the window.

A few years ago I was involved with a charity based in the north east that helped recovering alcoholics and substance users get into employment or training. I was quite surprised that I was met with some hostility amongst the socialist society. My attitude was described as 'Victorian' and I had made a judgement on who were the 'deserving poor'. The prevailing view seemed to be that charity work only encouraged a continuation of the current system, very laudable in theory but practically of no use to those in need.

Whilst I understand frustrations that the political spectrum in this country is increasingly narrow it's not easy to resolve in the short to medium term. We have arguably been stuck in or around the centre ground for nigh on 25 years now with small swings either left or right in that time. I'm glad to see Labour rediscovering or at least alluding to their basic principles but that has to be balanced with practicalities, an acceptance of the limitations of a limited parliamentary term and an understanding of what is currently deemed electable in the UK.

[AndyM_1875]

Corbyn's been an MP for three decades. He's definitely a career politician.

In that he's a successful MP, sure. But he's a dreadful leader and his performance has been abysmal. When you have MPs queuing up outside his office for hours to get direction on policy and being refused admission to met him as was the case with Heidi Alexander recently and your parliamentary party is against you it more than a case of shouting "Blairite" (meaningless now) whilst threatening de-selection and thinking that will cut it because it doesn't.

I was genuinely hopeful when Corbyn was elected but that is now gone. He's turning Labour from a party that should be ready to take power into a protest movement of placards rather than policies which is no use to the many people in the UK who now need a Labour Government.

Corbyn says he's "anti-austerity" and it's "a new kind of politics". These are just empty soundbites. They mean absolutely nothing when not backed up by economic policies and Corbyn doesn't have any. He preaches to his fanboys in Momentum and thinks that somehow will reach out to the general public. Again, no. The latest opinion polls are disastrous for him. He's viewed as being an inferior candidate for PM in a poll of people who voted Labour in 2015 and the party is now trailing the Tories by 10 points.

The only number that dear old Jezza needs to understand is 10 million. Because that's the number of votes he needs to attract to ensure Labour has a sniff of getting power. Right now he's miles off that. Labour needs a leader not a Membership secretary.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

[/B]
Her reincarnation has just arrived. Shiver me timbers.

Because shes a woman?

[Hibbyradge]

Thangam Debbonaire on Facebook

"Dear everyone who has asked me what my problems are with Corbyn's leadership,

Here is my experience.

Mr Corbyn appointed me and press released this without my knowledge or consent whilst I was in the middle of cancer treatment. He then sacked me the next day when he realized he had given away part of someone else's role. But didn't bother to tell me that either. By then my office had been besieged by press and the story was out that I was Shadow Minister. I decided to make the best of it and to serve. I worked on his Arts policy whilst I was still having treatment but in Bristol..

When I went back to Westminster, I discovered that he had sacked me but hadn't told me and did not have any ideas for how I was supposed to explain it to Bristol West members or constituents. I was then faced with the choice of telling the truth - that he had made a series of errors, and inevitably thereby face a pile of criticism from his supporters - or say I had changed my mind about accepting the role - and thereby face a pile of criticism from.his supporters. And I knew the pile would arrive because I had seen how it went for others who had resigned. And because Corbyn supporters had already piled into me for disloyalty when I had had to miss votes for cancer treatment.

I then, contrary to the story he keeps giving on TV, found it near on impossible to get to talk to him about this problem

Eventually I did get to meet him and he had nothing to say. No idea what to do. It took my boss Maria Eagle to explain to him that as he was leader he could re appoint me if that was what he wanted.

I then worked hard for him on his Arts policy, loyally didn't go to the press about the above, got stuck in and worked. And yes, I enjoyed the role, it is one of my dream jobs in parliament and I believe I did Corbyn and the Labour Party a great service, as millions of people work in the arts and culture sectors and they valued being involved in policy-making. So it was never my intention to resign.

However, I kept hearing from other colleagues on the front bench just how difficult or impossible it was to get a decision out of him on important policy issues - the very thing Corbyn is supposed to be good on. I also noticed that the policy making process through the National Policy Forum was being slowed down by lack of decisions from Corbyn's office.

But then he was missing in action during the EU referendum, including going on a week's holiday three weeks before the day. I found that unforgivable. I had re-started campaigning in this campaign, phone-canvassing to conserve my energy, and kept hearing Labour voters saying 'but your leader wants out, doesn't he?' His team didn't send anyone to the EU Campaign meetings in Westminster and his lack of enthusiasm showed.

On the day after the referendum he asked for an early Brexit. My constituents want exactly the opposite and were telling me so in their hundreds, and voted 85% to remain.

That was the tipping point for me - it is not allowed to remain on the front bench whilst taking an opposing view to the leader in something so important.

I therefore had to resign.

The reason I then voted no confidence in him as leader is because I have no confidence in him as leader. See above. Plus I had found out from other front bench women how unwilling and unable Corbyn is to communicate with, listen to or work with anyone outside his narrow group.

Since then he has stated publicly that he isn't prioritizing winning elections. How can I support a Labour leader who doesn't want to form a Labour government above everything? When working people, the old, the young, the poor, the country, need a Labour government above everything?

I want a Labour government more than anything, because that is how we change the world and how we help millions of people, just as the 1997-2010 Labour government helped millions of people, my own family included.

I profoundly wished I never had to say all this publicly, but people keep asking, and I believe they have a right to know the truth about what Corbyn's leadership is like.

We cannot win general elections with a leader who is unable and unwilling to learn how to communicate with, listen to and persuade people with whom he doesn't already agree - we need to convince swing voters who voted Tory last year in Southern seats to vote Labour next time and we need Labour voters in Wales and the North to continue to vote Labour - without this we can't win a general election.

all that is what's at stake. Not having a Labour government again is unbearable. I will do anything I can to help to ensure this. It's the constitutional duty of all Labour MPs, especially the leader, to try to secure a better life for working class people through parliamentary means. And that's what I will continue to do.

I hope that's clear."

[RyeSloan]

Thangam Debbonaire on Facebook "Dear everyone who has asked me what my problems are with Corbyn's leadership, Here is my experience. Mr Corbyn appointed me and press released this without my knowledge or consent whilst I was in the middle of cancer treatment. He then sacked me the next day when he realized he had given away part of someone else's role. But didn't bother to tell me that either. By then my office had been besieged by press and the story was out that I was Shadow Minister. I decided to make the best of it and to serve. I worked on his Arts policy whilst I was still having treatment but in Bristol.. When I went back to Westminster, I discovered that he had sacked me but hadn't told me and did not have any ideas for how I was supposed to explain it to Bristol West members or constituents. I was then faced with the choice of telling the truth - that he had made a series of errors, and inevitably thereby face a pile of criticism from his supporters - or say I had changed my mind about accepting the role - and thereby face a pile of criticism from.his supporters. And I knew the pile would arrive because I had seen how it went for others who had resigned. And because Corbyn supporters had already piled into me for disloyalty when I had had to miss votes for cancer treatment. I then, contrary to the story he keeps giving on TV, found it near on impossible to get to talk to him about this problem Eventually I did get to meet him and he had nothing to say. No idea what to do. It took my boss Maria Eagle to explain to him that as he was leader he could re appoint me if that was what he wanted. I then worked hard for him on his Arts policy, loyally didn't go to the press about the above, got stuck in and worked. And yes, I enjoyed the role, it is one of my dream jobs in parliament and I believe I did Corbyn and the Labour Party a great service, as millions of people work in the arts and culture sectors and they valued being involved in policy-making. So it was never my intention to resign. However, I kept hearing from other colleagues on the front bench just how difficult or impossible it was to get a decision out of him on important policy issues - the very thing Corbyn is supposed to be good on. I also noticed that the policy making process through the National Policy Forum was being slowed down by lack of decisions from Corbyn's office. But then he was missing in action during the EU referendum, including going on a week's holiday three weeks before the day. I found that unforgivable. I had re-started campaigning in this campaign, phone-canvassing to conserve my energy, and kept hearing Labour voters saying 'but your leader wants out, doesn't he?' His team didn't send anyone to the EU Campaign meetings in Westminster and his lack of enthusiasm showed. On the day after the referendum he asked for an early Brexit. My constituents want exactly the opposite and were telling me so in their hundreds, and voted 85% to remain. That was the tipping point for me - it is not allowed to remain on the front bench whilst taking an opposing view to the leader in something so important. I therefore had to resign. The reason I then voted no confidence in him as leader is because I have no confidence in him as leader. See above. Plus I had found out from other front bench women how unwilling and unable Corbyn is to communicate with, listen to or work with anyone outside his narrow group. Since then he has stated publicly that he isn't prioritizing winning elections. How can I support a Labour leader who doesn't want to form a Labour government above everything? When working people, the old, the young, the poor, the country, need a Labour government above everything? I want a Labour government more than anything, because that is how we change the world and how we help millions of people, just as the 1997-2010 Labour government helped millions of people, my own family included. I profoundly wished I never had to say all this publicly, but people keep asking, and I believe they have a right to know the truth about what Corbyn's leadership is like. We cannot win general elections with a leader who is unable and unwilling to learn how to communicate with, listen to and persuade people with whom he doesn't already agree - we need to convince swing voters who voted Tory last year in Southern seats to vote Labour next time and we need Labour voters in Wales and the North to continue to vote Labour - without this we can't win a general election. all that is what's at stake. Not having a Labour government again is unbearable. I will do anything I can to help to ensure this. It's the constitutional duty of all Labour MPs, especially the leader, to try to secure a better life for working class people through parliamentary means. And that's what I will continue to do. I hope that's clear."


You lot never give up do you ;-)

Quality name she has that's for sure and a rather damning story to tell as well...

[Hibbyradge]

You lot never give up do you ;-)



Is that the electorate you're referring to again? :wink:

[hibsbollah]

http://votecheck.jeremyforlabour.com/

A 48 hour window to vote for your candidate of choice. 25 earth pounds is the fee.

[jacomo]

http://votecheck.jeremyforlabour.com/

A 48 hour window to vote for your candidate of choice. 25 earth pounds is the fee.

Whatever else, I hope we can agree that these rules are an absolute farce!

How can it possibly be right that one person can sign up as a member in March and yet not allowed to vote, while another can pay £25 tonight and get a vote?

[hibsbollah]

Whatever else, I hope we can agree that these rules are an absolute farce!

How can it possibly be right that one person can sign up as a member in March and yet not allowed to vote, while another can pay £25 tonight and get a vote?

Quite. And totally politically counterproductive because it reinforces the concept of persecution and conspiracy. The short window is equally ridiculous as the new joining fee. Not long to wait now.

[Jonnyboy]

Whatever else, I hope we can agree that these rules are an absolute farce!

How can it possibly be right that one person can sign up as a member in March and yet not allowed to vote, while another can pay £25 tonight and get a vote?

You should email Mr Corbyn and he might read it out at PMQ's :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour MPs vote to renew Trident and Corbyn against. Says it all really.

[RyeSloan]

Labour MPs vote to renew Trident and Corbyn against. Says it all really.

The BBC are suggesting the Labour policy review into their official position on Trident has not been completed yet...if true that's a total embarrassment and maybe an indication that the comments around lack of policy planning may hold some truth.

[jacomo]

The BBC are suggesting the Labour policy review into their official position on Trident has not been completed yet...if true that's a total embarrassment and maybe an indication that the comments around lack of policy planning may hold some truth.

Yes and no.

Labour is very pro Trident, that is official party policy. Corbyn has said he wants to change it but it was always going to be a tough slog.

But... then, seemingly from nowhere he suggests building the subs but without the nuclear war heads. Wtf? This sounds just like a dumb plan to keep the unions on board.

He should be quite clear: scrap Trident and give the Navy what they really need (such as patrol ships to police our new Brexit seas) or spend the cash on projects to revive ship building.

[Hibbyradge]

Does anyone else get the Word of the Day?

Today's word is "Doctrinaire". 😋

[Hibbyradge]

Owen Smith to oppose Jeremy Corbyn.

[jacomo]

Owen Smith to oppose Jeremy Corbyn.

Craig Murray not a fan:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/07/entirely-fake-owen-smith/

And he fell into the Tory Trident trap last night

[Hibbyradge]

Here's another, er, Blairite, ready to join the Tory party.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/07/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-corbyns-economics/

[jacomo]

Here's another, er, Blairite, ready to join the Tory party.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/07/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-corbyns-economics/

Doesn't sound good, does it?

The problem is, I think, that the PLP (shorthand for the anti-Corbyn faction) are now turning this into a Values vs Competency debate.

This is yet another mistake.

Corbyn might be a nightmare to work with, but most people don't work with him. They just see the guy who doesn't look like other, polished politicians, and they like it.

These revelations about the day to day workings of the party won't persuade many.

[Hibbyradge]

I guess it depends on your definition of "leader".

http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lilian_s_speech_to_nottingham_south_labour_party_m embers

[jacomo]

I guess it depends on your definition of "leader".

http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lilian_s_speech_to_nottingham_south_labour_party_m embers

My MP posted this on her Facebook feed earlier.

You don't have to convince me. All I am saying is that the PLP - who really, really need to rebuild trust with the membership and find a way of welcoming all these new supporters rather than viewing them with suspicion - are making mistake after mistake.

It is pretty extraordinary for a political party to get a thumping at a General Election, and follow it with a sustained, massive surge in membership. I know people who had no interest in politics, suddenly becoming avowed socialists.

Something extraordinary is happening. Labour need to find a way of harnessing that energy.

By isolating Corbyn from the outset, they fed into a paranoid, us v them narrative. Now the stubborn git has dug his heels in while they plot and organise botched coups against him.

They are a sorry bunch, they really are.

[Hibbyradge]

It's a mess, for sure.

However, anecdotes about people who previously had no interest in politics becoming avowed socialists are a bit hard to swallow.

It's also not unusual for a beaten party to increase membership. I'm on my phone so it's too hard to type it all, but it's a phenomenon called "commitment and consistency".

It's explained well in Robert Cialdini's book Influence: the psychology of persuasion.

A cracking read, by the way.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's a mess, for sure.

However, anecdotes about people who previously had no interest in politics becoming avowed socialists are a bit hard to swallow.

It's also not unusual for a beaten party to increase membership. I'm on my phone so it's too hard to type it all, but it's a phenomenon called "commitment and consistency".

It's explained well in Robert Cialdini's book Influence: the psychology of persuasion.

A cracking read, by the way.

:agree:

I had let my membership lapse but rejoined within a few days of the 2010 defeat.

I understand I was one of many tens of thousands.

I think Corbyn became fashionable for a lot of people and at three quid a pop, what did you have to lose? By his own admission it was his turn to front up for the awkward squad when the leadership election came, he just happened to get lucky. It could have been McDonnell or Abbott, instead we got Corbyn.

He has no leadership skills, no clear policy sense. There's no sense of what the vision is and all the anecdotal evidence is that he is incapable of making decisions. He's not a leader.

Miliband was slated for not being a leader but he publicly took on Murdoch, the Daily Mail and the energy companies. Corbyn can't demonstrate anything approaching that.

Corbyn is a vainglorious, self-indulgent excuse of a Labour MP. Happy to have taken all the trappings that go with being supported by the party, happy to have voted against it hundreds of times but too cowardly to resign the whip and risk his pension by standing as an independent.

Utter hypocrite as well - complains about disloyalty after voting against his party hundreds of times. Talks about the democratic will and his mandate when his pals at the head of Unite etc are bullying MPs with the threat of deselection.

We all know how history will remember him, it's a travesty that he's been so selfish when there's such a need for the Tories to be held to account.

[jacomo]

It's a mess, for sure.

However, anecdotes about people who previously had no interest in politics becoming avowed socialists are a bit hard to swallow.

It's also not unusual for a beaten party to increase membership. I'm on my phone so it's too hard to type it all, but it's a phenomenon called "commitment and consistency".

It's explained well in Robert Cialdini's book Influence: the psychology of persuasion.

A cracking read, by the way.

I'll look it up. :aok:

I'm vaguely aware of this from a marketing perspective. But there is also something else that is more profound. Iraq, Trident are issues that people base their values on. It is a statement about the kind of world you want to live in, if not the world we actually inhabit.

[Hibbyradge]

It's a shame the Labour leader is going to be male again.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's a shame the Labour leader is going to be male again.

It's a sin that Labour hasn't had a female leader yet. Good article in the Guardian that questions why we haven't seen a female leader and calls into question the role of the unions in that, or more specifically the men in charge. For me, the equal pay issue was damning for the public sector unions, males in senior positions in the unions acquiesced in women being underpaid. They should be held answerable for that and it's a cop-out to blame the employers when the unions were dodging their responsibility to stand up for all their members, let alone the unrepresented.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's a sin that Labour hasn't had a female leader yet. Good article in the Guardian that questions why we haven't seen a female leader and calls into question the role of the unions in that, or more specifically the men in charge. For me, the equal pay issue was damning for the public sector unions, males in senior positions in the unions acquiesced in women being underpaid. They should be held answerable for that and it's a cop-out to blame the employers when the unions were dodging their responsibility to stand up for all their members, let alone the unrepresented.


BBC reported on Owen Smith's backround as having
worked for makers of Viagra, Pfizer. So at least he will stand up for his members. :greengrin

Stiff on drugs as well.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a sin that Labour hasn't had a female leader yet. Good article in the Guardian that questions why we haven't seen a female leader and calls into question the role of the unions in that, or more specifically the men in charge. For me, the equal pay issue was damning for the public sector unions, males in senior positions in the unions acquiesced in women being underpaid. They should be held answerable for that and it's a cop-out to blame the employers when the unions were dodging their responsibility to stand up for all their members, let alone the unrepresented.

Maybe the 'progressive' left are actually a lot more conservative than they like to think eh...

[jacomo]

Maybe the 'progressive' left are actually a lot more conservative than they like to think eh...

I am 100% pro equality and it is a good point about trade unions letting down their female members.

But a woman as leader doesn't guarantee anything. You think PM May is going to back up her portentous rhetoric with real change? I don't think so.

[Hibbyradge]

October election if Corbin wins again?

The only argument I read against all this data is that the polls have been wrong before, but it would be lunacy to keep someone in the leadership position on that unrealistic hope.

17188

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I am 100% pro equality and it is a good point about trade unions letting down their female members.

But a woman as leader doesn't guarantee anything. You think PM May is going to back up her portentous rhetoric with real change? I don't think so.

Nobody knows the answer to that, certainly not me. But im prepared to take her atbher word until i habe reason not too - not least because ot makes electoral sense fpr her to do so.

And no a woman doesnt guarenttlee anything, but there is now one party in the uk that has delivered two female PMs. And its not the so-called progressive party.

[Betty Boop]

180,000 registered to vote in the last 48 hours. Mon Jezza !

[Hibbyradge]

180,000 registered to vote in the last 48 hours. Mon Jezza !

Democracy in action. :rolleyes:

I have little doubt that Corbyn will win and, as a result, Labour will be able to do nothing to stop the Tories attacking all the areas that the left hold so dear.

But at least it'll be pure. Utterly ineffective, but pure.

[RyeSloan]

Democracy in action. :rolleyes: I have little doubt that Corbyn will win and, as a result, Labour will be able to do nothing to stop the Tories attacking all the areas that the left hold so dear. But at least it'll be pure. Utterly ineffective, but pure.

Im still struggling to find Corbyn policies...I've looked on his website and it appears to be just a list of his speeches where he highlights what he thinks is wrong but puts very little meat on the bones of what he would do about it.

I'm genuinely curious as again yesterday we had the 5 ill's and yet the only policy I have seen reported is the slightly bizarre pay and conditions report requirements which hardly seems like it would transform the 5 ill's.

I'm unsure as to how people can vote in another leadership contest for him when it (to me at least) it is totally unclear after almost a year in the job just what policies and actions he would implement.

[Ozymandias]

I've voted Labour on occasion in the past, but SNP for the last few elections.
What I find stunning is the way Labour have allowed a massive Tory fallout over Brexit to not be seized upon as an opportunity to push their agenda or at least demand an election. I think Labour standing on an anti-Brexit/2nd referendum ticket would at least give them a chance to be elected.
Corbyn must shoulder the bulk of the blame, surely

[Betty Boop]

Democracy in action. :rolleyes:

I have little doubt that Corbyn will win and, as a result, Labour will be able to do nothing to stop the Tories attacking all the areas that the left hold so dear.

But at least it'll be pure. Utterly ineffective, but pure.

I think you're warming to him ! :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Im still struggling to find Corbyn policies.

Scrap trident, stop bombing Middle East, free vote on withdrawing from NATO, renationalise railways and post office, social housing building programme, increase corporation tax, increase top rate of tax, stop private sector involvement in NHS and education.

It's fairly straightforward and unsurprising. The kind of policies I would have loved to have seen on a Labour manifesto but we haven't seen for thirty years. It's not a revolution, nobody is forcing these policies on anyone, it just would be nice to see them tested in front of the apocryphal court of Great British Public opinion.

The LSE has done a really interesting study on how the press has covered Corbyn, and one of the findings is his policy position has barely been mentioned past the deluge of abuse. The Express is particularly Pyongyang-like, they have a policy of never actually quoting his words, like Sinn Fein in the 80s. It's quite creepy.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/pdf/JeremyCorbyn/Cobyn-Report-FINAL.pdf

Might explain your difficulty in finding his position on things.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Scrap trident, stop bombing Middle East, free vote on withdrawing from NATO, renationalise railways and post office, social housing building programme, increase corporation tax, increase top rate of tax, stop private sector involvement in NHS and education.

It's fairly straightforward and unsurprising. The kind of policies I would have loved to have seen on a Labour manifesto but we haven't seen for thirty years. It's not a revolution, nobody is forcing these policies on anyone, it just would be nice to see them tested in front of the apocryphal court of Great British Public opinion.

The LSE has done a really interesting study on how the press has covered Corbyn, and one of the findings is his policy position has barely been mentioned past the deluge of abuse. The Express is particularly Pyongyang-like, they have a policy of never actually quoting his words, like Sinn Fein in the 80s. It's quite creepy.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/pdf/JeremyCorbyn/Cobyn-Report-FINAL.pdf

Might explain your difficulty in finding his position on things.

Most of those policies are so superficial that they are laughable.

No private companies involved in the nhs? Really? No agency nurses, no scanners and no medicines? The NHS really.wouldbt last long.

But at least it would be ideologically pure though eh.

Those policies are the very epitome of lazy opposition type policies that are practically impossible. Labour would never win an election with those policies.

[Moulin Yarns]

Most of those policies are so superficial that they are laughable.

No private companies involved in the nhs? Really? No agency nurses, no scanners and no medicines? The NHS really.wouldbt last long.

But at least it would be ideologically pure though eh.

Those policies are the very epitome of lazy opposition type policies that are practically impossible. Labour would never win an election with those policies.

You have picked one of the long list, what about the others? And the aim for the NHS would be to stop private sector contracts at the delivery end, not across the whole of the NHS if I am not mistaken, certainly more to what I expect from a left leaning party.

[hibsbollah]

Most of those policies are so superficial that they are laughable.

No private companies involved in the nhs? Really? No agency nurses, no scanners and no medicines? The NHS really.wouldbt last long.

But at least it would be ideologically pure though eh.

Those policies are the very epitome of lazy opposition type policies that are practically impossible. Labour would never win an election with those policies.

In what way superficial? In what way impossible?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You have picked one of the long list, what about the others? And the aim for the NHS would be to stop private sector contracts at the delivery end, not across the whole of the NHS if I am not mistaken, certainly more to what I expect from a left leaning party.

I picked that one because, contrary to what you took from it (i interpreted it the same way) his ridiculous comments about pharma companies in relation to owen smith show just how out of touch with reality he is.

Renationalising the railyway, i dont disagree with but it would be expensive. The post office seems to me an anchronism anyway.

Raising taxes? Ok, i dont agree but its not mad. Building social housing, will be expensive also. All while there is a huge deficit amd he is 'anti-austerity' - so the very obvious question is, who os goign to pay for all of this?

Oh yeah, the very people he would need to vote for him if je were to win

His wishy-washy foreign policy also would lose votes, and is again symptomatic of a leader who is really a protester.

[RyeSloan]

Scrap trident, stop bombing Middle East, free vote on withdrawing from NATO, renationalise railways and post office, social housing building programme, increase corporation tax, increase top rate of tax, stop private sector involvement in NHS and education. It's fairly straightforward and unsurprising. The kind of policies I would have loved to have seen on a Labour manifesto but we haven't seen for thirty years. It's not a revolution, nobody is forcing these policies on anyone, it just would be nice to see them tested in front of the apocryphal court of Great British Public opinion. The LSE has done a really interesting study on how the press has covered Corbyn, and one of the findings is his policy position has barely been mentioned past the deluge of abuse. The Express is particularly Pyongyang-like, they have a policy of never actually quoting his words, like Sinn Fein in the 80s. It's quite creepy. http://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/pdf/JeremyCorbyn/Cobyn-Report-FINAL.pdf Might explain your difficulty in finding his position on things.

Thanks 'bollah but where is the detail on how these things would be achieved and the cost?

Renationalisation is a good example, sounds great (if that's your thing) but why and how? What would renationalisation for the post office achieve for the country, how much would it cost and what are the benefits to all? Same with the railways, would it involve cancelling the current franchises? Repatriation of all the rolling stock and combing the operators with network rail (or whatever they are called now)? Again what's the cost, what's the benefits and how long would it take?

Increase of tax rates...why? Is it just for 'fairness' or is it expected to increase the tax take and if so how much and how quickly? What would the increases do for job creation and securing business in the UK? Every action has a reaction so where is the analysis to show this is a good idea?

As for the NHS....that sounds impossible on the face of it as there must be thousands of private companies that are suppliers to the NHS. Is the policy then just to cover front line staff and premises or does it go deeper?

As I struggle to find your list anywhere easily (including his own website) I'm even more at a loss as to where I can find the detail behind such grand statements so I can assess whether I think they are a sound idea or not.

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder who agrees with this


Scotland can provide affordable accessible public transport:
Better buses. Too many people are underserved by local bus routes. We would support the re-regulation of buses to stop companies ‘cherry- picking’ profitable routes and leaving some communities stranded. Regulations should include a minimum level of service guarantee; requirements to invest in making services fully accessible to all disabled people and parents; increasing energy efficient vehicles, such as electric or biowaste buses; and a renovation programme for bus stations to make them attractive places. We will support campaigns to extend the free bus pass to unpaid carers on benefits provide enhanced support to community transport schemes.

Reliable rail. We will campaign to bring the railway back into public hands at the end of the current contract. Bringing railways back into public hands could reduce fares, improve links with other transport and ensure that the service is fully accessible to all. We support creating wi-fi and 3G coverage on all intercity public transport, including in stations. Reopening of old routes, such as to Methil and Leven, dualling the Highland mainline, and a switch from road freight to rail delivery will also be targets alongside securing faster journey times to London.

Connecting islands. Ferries and air travel are a lifeline for many island communities. We will campaign to keep ferry services in public hands, support the expansion of the Road Equivalent Tariff between Mainland to Orkney, and work to ensure contracts deliver highest level of reliability for islands’ air passengers.

International travel. Aviation connects Scotland to other parts of the world for holidays and business. Travel is vital, but tax cuts benefit the richest frequent flyers more than people who save for a holiday. Cuts also bring further austerity. We will campaign to provide fast rail alternatives where possible and for airline tax to represent the industry’s environmental cost.

[RyeSloan]

I wonder who agrees with this Scotland can provide affordable accessible public transport: Better buses. Too many people are underserved by local bus routes. We would support the re-regulation of buses to stop companies ‘cherry- picking’ profitable routes and leaving some communities stranded. Regulations should include a minimum level of service guarantee; requirements to invest in making services fully accessible to all disabled people and parents; increasing energy efficient vehicles, such as electric or biowaste buses; and a renovation programme for bus stations to make them attractive places. We will support campaigns to extend the free bus pass to unpaid carers on benefits provide enhanced support to community transport schemes. Reliable rail. We will campaign to bring the railway back into public hands at the end of the current contract. Bringing railways back into public hands could reduce fares, improve links with other transport and ensure that the service is fully accessible to all. We support creating wi-fi and 3G coverage on all intercity public transport, including in stations. Reopening of old routes, such as to Methil and Leven, dualling the Highland mainline, and a switch from road freight to rail delivery will also be targets alongside securing faster journey times to London. Connecting islands. Ferries and air travel are a lifeline for many island communities. We will campaign to keep ferry services in public hands, support the expansion of the Road Equivalent Tariff between Mainland to Orkney, and work to ensure contracts deliver highest level of reliability for islands’ air passengers. International travel. Aviation connects Scotland to other parts of the world for holidays and business. Travel is vital, but tax cuts benefit the richest frequent flyers more than people who save for a holiday. Cuts also bring further austerity. We will campaign to provide fast rail alternatives where possible and for airline tax to represent the industry’s environmental cost.

Scottish Green policies?

Some laudable aims but my question is why do they need to be achieved through public ownership? Why are they not being achieved now? What will the cost to the public purse be not only on the re-organisation but on an ongoing basis? It would seem obvious that unprofitable routes are under served therefore if they were to be maintained or increased then that would require increased and on going subsidy and therefore less cash to spend elsewhere...so the implications and costs of these policies need thought through even if on face value they might seem agreeable.

It's also clear they don't like air travel but yet that is often the most convenient route for tourists to come to Scotland. Tourism is a large part of the Scottish economy so what impact would the proposed airline tax have? Also clearly those hat use it most will gain from any reduction in taxes that doesn't always mean it's a bad thing...those frequent flyers are generating more revenue for airlines and the ancillary services so maybe they are the very types to be encouraged rather than focussing on the once a year family trips?

[Hibbyradge]

I think you're warming to him ! :greengrin

I think you may be mistaken about that!

Here's some more data which might give you aneed idea as to why!

https://mobile.twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/754434632368656385/photo/1

[Hibbyradge]

Sorry, I can't post that link with my phone.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry, I can't post that link with my phone.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnhKE0KWcAAJ1ze.jpg

[hibsbollah]

Thanks 'bollah but where is the detail on how these things would be achieved and the cost?

Renationalisation is a good example, sounds great (if that's your thing) but why and how? What would renationalisation for the post office achieve for the country, how much would it cost and what are the benefits to all? Same with the railways, would it involve cancelling the current franchises? Repatriation of all the rolling stock and combing the operators with network rail (or whatever they are called now)? Again what's the cost, what's the benefits and how long would it take?

Increase of tax rates...why? Is it just for 'fairness' or is it expected to increase the tax take and if so how much and how quickly? What would the increases do for job creation and securing business in the UK? Every action has a reaction so where is the analysis to show this is a good idea?

As for the NHS....that sounds impossible on the face of it as there must be thousands of private companies that are suppliers to the NHS. Is the policy then just to cover front line staff and premises or does it go deeper?

As I struggle to find your list anywhere easily (including his own website) I'm even more at a loss as to where I can find the detail behind such grand statements so I can assess whether I think they are a sound idea or not.

I can't answer all of those questions, of course. Costed proposals are fairly unusual from political parties of any colour three and a half years before an election!

What I can say is from my experience, working in both policy development and project delivery in a government department in the Blair regime, is that big policy changes and injection of funds directly to the providers of services and away from the private sector monopolies that currently have a stranglehold on the UK economy can happen surprisingly quickly when there's political will. I don't have a monopoly on wisdom but I'll need some evidence from the poster earlier who claimed It's somehow impossible or fanciful to achieve these things to change my mind. Post Office privatisation would be easy. We are TOLD a mixed economy is problematic by people who have an interest in keeping in that way.

I'm pleased we're actually discussing policy for once...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can't answer all of those questions, of course. Costed proposals are fairly unusual from political parties of any colour three and a half years before an election!

What I can say is from my experience, working in both policy development and project delivery in a government department in the Blair regime, is that big policy changes and injection of funds directly to the providers of services and away from the private sector monopolies that currently have a stranglehold on the UK economy can happen surprisingly quickly when there's political will. I don't have a monopoly on wisdom but I'll need some evidence from the poster earlier who claimed It's somehow impossible or fanciful to achieve these things to change my mind. Post Office privatisation would be easy. We are TOLD a mixed economy is problematic by people who have an interest in keeping in that way.

I'm pleased we're actually discussing policy for once...

Im not against renationalising on principlr, and i think given the level of subsidy we give to private companies, it is absolutely worth looking at. Im not convinced we get the benefits of the private sector in monopoly or very static markets.

The nhs is an area i have some experience of, and it is creaking. Ot is doing a job it wasnt designed fpr, and it is not funded for. The idea that the uk can, would wany to or would be able to, replace privately funded r&d is new medicines is so ridiculous it makes me angry. It would potentially double the budget deficit on its own. The nhs was created in rhe forties, we have to look at new waysnof doing that -private companies can, and do have a part to play in that. A limited part, but a part.

The tax policies, again would they work? Austerity is often railed against because it is 'ideological', yet i believe proposed tax rises to be equally ideological.

I agree with your point on policy debate though, i enjoy this board and never fail to be impressed by the level of knowledge that many posters have

[Colr]

I find that the people who are most keen on conspriacy theories are the ones that are most likely to conspire themselves. I think there are dark forces firing between his synapses.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/22/intelligence-services-using-dark-practices-against-jeremy-corbyn

[Hibbyradge]

I find that the people who are most keen on conspriacy theories are the ones that are most likely to conspire themselves. I think there are dark forces firing between his synapses.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/22/intelligence-services-using-dark-practices-against-jeremy-corbyn

:faf:

The faithful will lap up that guff.

Why on earth would the security services waste their time and resources trying to undermine a Labour leader with absolutely no chance of ever getting into power?

Corbyn is zero threat to the establishment and I'm certain that they're delighted he decided not to resign.

[Hibbyradge]

Here's another fine piece of writing from Janice Turner in today's edition of 'The Times', in which she graphically describes how an irrational cult is working to ensure that the Labour Party keeps the worst ever leader in its long and proud history!

"Walking to my hairdresser on Thursday afternoon, I turned the corner to find Angela Eagle. She was alone on my local high street looking so sad that, although we’d never met, I felt compelled to go over and say how appalled I was at her treatment — the threats, abuse, the brick through her constituency office in Wallasey — during her leadership bid.

As we spoke, a car beeped and a man rolled down his window to shout “We need more like you in the party!” Angela waved bleakly. She seemed so broken, I had to restrain myself from hugging her. Things were getting worse, she said: police had advised her not to conduct constituency surgeries. Later, I tweeted what she’d told me and shortly after Merseyside police confirmed they’d given her security advice, although the decision to cancel open surgeries was hers.

To me this was logical: she’d listened to their risk assessment and acted upon it to protect herself and staff. To untold others on Twitter — whose biographies proclaim support for Jeremy Corbyn — this was just more Angela Eagle lies. There was no danger, she was playing the victim, making up threats. Liar! As for the brick, that was the biggest of all lies! It had been lobbed through the stairwell window, not her actual office. Liar! It was a burglary, a drunk leaving a nearby pub. Or she’d ordered the window to be smashed herself. Liar!

The Parable of the Brick tells us that among Corbyn supporters during this leadership contest all reason has gone: this is now a movement run on faith alone. Not so last summer. Then many thoughtful people, contemplating lacklustre alternatives, decided to give this quirky, old-time leftie a spin. They imagined a genial, grandfatherly figure heading a broad, inspiring progressive movement, welcoming opponents, gathering brilliant minds. Instead, one by one, these supporters have realised Corbyn is a shambolic, rather dim man, who surrounds himself with reptilian ideologues, will ensure ten more years (at least) of Tory rule and doesn’t even care. Such rational folk, fearing their party is about to die and seeing a confident new Tory government with no one to hold it to account, have ditched Corbyn.

What remains is a cult: its members cannot be persuaded by reason or argument. Some believers are benign and well-meaning, like the women I keep meeting who “just love Jeremy” and, like Mary Magdalene, would happily wash his feet with their hair. Or the young folk who (understandably) want to smash a system that has laden them with debt and poor prospects, and cannot comprehend that beyond their Facebook bubble millions of voters will never share their faith in JC.

Others are more doctrinaire, ever vigilant for blasphemers, heretics, apostates. The Year Zero zealots for whom Labour history began on August 14, 2015: three general elections, every achievement of the New Labour years, airbrushed away. Minimum wage, peace in Northern Ireland, civil partnerships . . . all nullified by the mantra “Iraq”. You were there? Then you were culpable. You’re a Blairite baby-murderer just for reminiscing about Sure Start. “The idiot syntax of the righteous,” as Emma Cline calls it in The Girls, her novel about the Manson cult.

The newest recruits, with the zeal of the convert, seek out treachery as they trash honourable MPs and ransack the fragile local party infrastructure, while believing they are running moneylenders out of the temple
How tricky at first for the Corbynites that Owen Smith is new and therefore free of New Labour taint. (Although for some it is enough to theorise that he would have been a warmonger given a chance.) But anyway, great news, comrades, Smith worked in the private sector. A drug company, no less: and who doesn’t hate Big Pharma. Especially the acolytes of unreason who believe scientific research, medical opinion and child vaccination programmes are part of the industrial-political complex and, like Jeremy, are homeopathy fans. Even better, Smith was a lobbyist, like Cameron! Except — fact check — he wasn’t a lobbyist, he worked in corporate communications. Oh, who cares: details are for Tories.

Facts become malleable when steeped in faith. Corbyn announced he’d ensure drug development would be conducted by the state, not evil corporations, without knowing or caring that this would bankrupt the NHS. Just as he can go to Yorkshire and demand the pits be reopened; impossible when they’re filled and flooded. Or declare that Article 50 should be immediately invoked and later dispute he said it. Never mind the truth, enjoy the socialist vibe.

To the religious faithful, you can doubt Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, say the wedding planners at Cana probably ran out for more wine, and they will simply reply: “I believe.” There is no point arguing that Corbyn is unelectable, that the polls suggest a Labour wipeout. You can drill Corbynistas with boundary changes, local election results, leader popularity polls right back to Attlee; you can point out that Theresa May spatchcocked him at PMQs; that Steven Woolfe’s Ukip will take the north; that Corbyn sacked a minister with cancer, made diligent, talented colleagues despair at his casual incompetence and they will simply reply: “I believe.”

Indeed, challenging their faith only makes it stronger. The newest recruits, with the zeal of the convert, seek out treachery as they trash honourable MPs and ransack the fragile local party infrastructure, while believing they are running moneylenders out of the temple. They stir up hatred and rancour and then, when bricks are thrown, threats are made, cry “Blairite, liar, traitor, Tory ****” because a brave and decent woman is afraid.

They probably won’t even believe that I met Angela Eagle by chance. We must have planned it, career politician and MSM (mainstream media) journalist. Beware conspiracies everywhere, comrades! Fire up the inquisition, build that rack. But I believe her: I saw in her face what they have done."

[Betty Boop]

Here's another fine piece of writing from Janice Turner in today's edition of 'The Times', in which she graphically describes how an irrational cult is working to ensure that the Labour Party keeps the worst ever leader in its long and proud history!

"Walking to my hairdresser on Thursday afternoon, I turned the corner to find Angela Eagle. She was alone on my local high street looking so sad that, although we’d never met, I felt compelled to go over and say how appalled I was at her treatment — the threats, abuse, the brick through her constituency office in Wallasey — during her leadership bid.

As we spoke, a car beeped and a man rolled down his window to shout “We need more like you in the party!” Angela waved bleakly. She seemed so broken, I had to restrain myself from hugging her. Things were getting worse, she said: police had advised her not to conduct constituency surgeries. Later, I tweeted what she’d told me and shortly after Merseyside police confirmed they’d given her security advice, although the decision to cancel open surgeries was hers.

To me this was logical: she’d listened to their risk assessment and acted upon it to protect herself and staff. To untold others on Twitter — whose biographies proclaim support for Jeremy Corbyn — this was just more Angela Eagle lies. There was no danger, she was playing the victim, making up threats. Liar! As for the brick, that was the biggest of all lies! It had been lobbed through the stairwell window, not her actual office. Liar! It was a burglary, a drunk leaving a nearby pub. Or she’d ordered the window to be smashed herself. Liar!

The Parable of the Brick tells us that among Corbyn supporters during this leadership contest all reason has gone: this is now a movement run on faith alone. Not so last summer. Then many thoughtful people, contemplating lacklustre alternatives, decided to give this quirky, old-time leftie a spin. They imagined a genial, grandfatherly figure heading a broad, inspiring progressive movement, welcoming opponents, gathering brilliant minds. Instead, one by one, these supporters have realised Corbyn is a shambolic, rather dim man, who surrounds himself with reptilian ideologues, will ensure ten more years (at least) of Tory rule and doesn’t even care. Such rational folk, fearing their party is about to die and seeing a confident new Tory government with no one to hold it to account, have ditched Corbyn.

What remains is a cult: its members cannot be persuaded by reason or argument. Some believers are benign and well-meaning, like the women I keep meeting who “just love Jeremy” and, like Mary Magdalene, would happily wash his feet with their hair. Or the young folk who (understandably) want to smash a system that has laden them with debt and poor prospects, and cannot comprehend that beyond their Facebook bubble millions of voters will never share their faith in JC.

Others are more doctrinaire, ever vigilant for blasphemers, heretics, apostates. The Year Zero zealots for whom Labour history began on August 14, 2015: three general elections, every achievement of the New Labour years, airbrushed away. Minimum wage, peace in Northern Ireland, civil partnerships . . . all nullified by the mantra “Iraq”. You were there? Then you were culpable. You’re a Blairite baby-murderer just for reminiscing about Sure Start. “The idiot syntax of the righteous,” as Emma Cline calls it in The Girls, her novel about the Manson cult.

The newest recruits, with the zeal of the convert, seek out treachery as they trash honourable MPs and ransack the fragile local party infrastructure, while believing they are running moneylenders out of the temple
How tricky at first for the Corbynites that Owen Smith is new and therefore free of New Labour taint. (Although for some it is enough to theorise that he would have been a warmonger given a chance.) But anyway, great news, comrades, Smith worked in the private sector. A drug company, no less: and who doesn’t hate Big Pharma. Especially the acolytes of unreason who believe scientific research, medical opinion and child vaccination programmes are part of the industrial-political complex and, like Jeremy, are homeopathy fans. Even better, Smith was a lobbyist, like Cameron! Except — fact check — he wasn’t a lobbyist, he worked in corporate communications. Oh, who cares: details are for Tories.

Facts become malleable when steeped in faith. Corbyn announced he’d ensure drug development would be conducted by the state, not evil corporations, without knowing or caring that this would bankrupt the NHS. Just as he can go to Yorkshire and demand the pits be reopened; impossible when they’re filled and flooded. Or declare that Article 50 should be immediately invoked and later dispute he said it. Never mind the truth, enjoy the socialist vibe.

To the religious faithful, you can doubt Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, say the wedding planners at Cana probably ran out for more wine, and they will simply reply: “I believe.” There is no point arguing that Corbyn is unelectable, that the polls suggest a Labour wipeout. You can drill Corbynistas with boundary changes, local election results, leader popularity polls right back to Attlee; you can point out that Theresa May spatchcocked him at PMQs; that Steven Woolfe’s Ukip will take the north; that Corbyn sacked a minister with cancer, made diligent, talented colleagues despair at his casual incompetence and they will simply reply: “I believe.”

Indeed, challenging their faith only makes it stronger. The newest recruits, with the zeal of the convert, seek out treachery as they trash honourable MPs and ransack the fragile local party infrastructure, while believing they are running moneylenders out of the temple. They stir up hatred and rancour and then, when bricks are thrown, threats are made, cry “Blairite, liar, traitor, Tory ****” because a brave and decent woman is afraid.

They probably won’t even believe that I met Angela Eagle by chance. We must have planned it, career politician and MSM (mainstream media) journalist. Beware conspiracies everywhere, comrades! Fire up the inquisition, build that rack. But I believe her: I saw in her face what they have done."

Jeezo you're Corbyn bashing is relentless. Do you feel as strongly about any other political figures ?

[Hibbyradge]

Jeezo you're Corbyn bashing is relentless. Do you feel as strongly about any other political figures ?

I've never felt as strongly about anyone in the Labour Party although I used to like Kinnock and John Smith a lot.

I don't hate Corbyn, but he and his cronies are going to destroy any chance the country has of unseating the Tories, and I truly despise several of them.

Here's a bit more data which helps explain why I want Smith to beat Jezza, although I'm pretty much resigned to the probability that nothing will change;

https://mobile.twitter.com/RedViews/status/756619043252084736/photo/1

[Colr]

Jeezo you're Corbyn bashing is relentless. Do you feel as strongly about any other political figures ?

Corbyn is not the man for the moment but the moment is definitely coming with a ground swell amongst people who are seeing their life chances severely limited and a political establishment that looks self serving at best.

It feel very much like a changing tide in affairs but the leaders of this change are yet to emerge.

I've paid my £25 with the intention of voting against Corbyn but not I'm not so sure. He's not the man to lead the change but if he remains in place the change is more likely to progress and the right people may emerge from the upheaval.

I'm on the horns of a dilemma on this one.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn is not the man for the moment but the moment is definitely coming with a ground swell amongst people who are seeing their life chances severely limited and a political establishment that looks self serving at best.

It feel very much like a changing tide in affairs but the leaders of this change are yet to emerge.

I've paid my £25 with the intention of voting against Corbyn but not I'm not so sure. He's not the man to lead the change but if he remains in place the change is more likely to progress and the right people may emerge from the upheaval.

I'm on the horns of a dilemma on this one.

I see groundswell going in exactly the opposite direction, unfortunately.

[Colr]

I see groundswell going in exactly the opposite direction, unfortunately.

Amongst the young and disposessed? They are struggling to find a voice. They won't find it in Theresa May

[lord bunberry]

I see groundswell going in exactly the opposite direction, unfortunately.
If a Corbyn win is as certain as it seems to be at what stage does his party and opponents start to get behind him? The only winners at the moment are the Tory party. Are we about to see a breakaway Labour Party, risking electoral Armageddon, or are the rebels going to give him a chance to fight the next election on the mandate he was elected with?

[Hibbyradge]

Amongst the young and disposessed? They are struggling to find a voice. They won't find it in Theresa May

They need a Labour government, not a protest party in the wings.

[ronaldo7]

Here's another fine piece of writing from Janice Turner in today's edition of 'The Times', in which she graphically describes how an irrational cult is working to ensure that the Labour Party keeps the worst ever leader in its long and proud history!

"Walking to my hairdresser on Thursday afternoon, I turned the corner to find Angela Eagle. She was alone on my local high street looking so sad that, although we’d never met, I felt compelled to go over and say how appalled I was at her treatment — the threats, abuse, the brick through her constituency office in Wallasey — during her leadership bid.

As we spoke, a car beeped and a man rolled down his window to shout “We need more like you in the party!” Angela waved bleakly. She seemed so broken, I had to restrain myself from hugging her. Things were getting worse, she said: police had advised her not to conduct constituency surgeries. Later, I tweeted what she’d told me and shortly after Merseyside police confirmed they’d given her security advice, although the decision to cancel open surgeries was hers.

To me this was logical: she’d listened to their risk assessment and acted upon it to protect herself and staff. To untold others on Twitter — whose biographies proclaim support for Jeremy Corbyn — this was just more Angela Eagle lies. There was no danger, she was playing the victim, making up threats. Liar! As for the brick, that was the biggest of all lies! It had been lobbed through the stairwell window, not her actual office. Liar! It was a burglary, a drunk leaving a nearby pub. Or she’d ordered the window to be smashed herself. Liar!

The Parable of the Brick tells us that among Corbyn supporters during this leadership contest all reason has gone: this is now a movement run on faith alone. Not so last summer. Then many thoughtful people, contemplating lacklustre alternatives, decided to give this quirky, old-time leftie a spin. They imagined a genial, grandfatherly figure heading a broad, inspiring progressive movement, welcoming opponents, gathering brilliant minds. Instead, one by one, these supporters have realised Corbyn is a shambolic, rather dim man, who surrounds himself with reptilian ideologues, will ensure ten more years (at least) of Tory rule and doesn’t even care. Such rational folk, fearing their party is about to die and seeing a confident new Tory government with no one to hold it to account, have ditched Corbyn.

What remains is a cult: its members cannot be persuaded by reason or argument. Some believers are benign and well-meaning, like the women I keep meeting who “just love Jeremy” and, like Mary Magdalene, would happily wash his feet with their hair. Or the young folk who (understandably) want to smash a system that has laden them with debt and poor prospects, and cannot comprehend that beyond their Facebook bubble millions of voters will never share their faith in JC.

Others are more doctrinaire, ever vigilant for blasphemers, heretics, apostates. The Year Zero zealots for whom Labour history began on August 14, 2015: three general elections, every achievement of the New Labour years, airbrushed away. Minimum wage, peace in Northern Ireland, civil partnerships . . . all nullified by the mantra “Iraq”. You were there? Then you were culpable. You’re a Blairite baby-murderer just for reminiscing about Sure Start. “The idiot syntax of the righteous,” as Emma Cline calls it in The Girls, her novel about the Manson cult.

The newest recruits, with the zeal of the convert, seek out treachery as they trash honourable MPs and ransack the fragile local party infrastructure, while believing they are running moneylenders out of the temple
How tricky at first for the Corbynites that Owen Smith is new and therefore free of New Labour taint. (Although for some it is enough to theorise that he would have been a warmonger given a chance.) But anyway, great news, comrades, Smith worked in the private sector. A drug company, no less: and who doesn’t hate Big Pharma. Especially the acolytes of unreason who believe scientific research, medical opinion and child vaccination programmes are part of the industrial-political complex and, like Jeremy, are homeopathy fans. Even better, Smith was a lobbyist, like Cameron! Except — fact check — he wasn’t a lobbyist, he worked in corporate communications. Oh, who cares: details are for Tories.

Facts become malleable when steeped in faith. Corbyn announced he’d ensure drug development would be conducted by the state, not evil corporations, without knowing or caring that this would bankrupt the NHS. Just as he can go to Yorkshire and demand the pits be reopened; impossible when they’re filled and flooded. Or declare that Article 50 should be immediately invoked and later dispute he said it. Never mind the truth, enjoy the socialist vibe.

To the religious faithful, you can doubt Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, say the wedding planners at Cana probably ran out for more wine, and they will simply reply: “I believe.” There is no point arguing that Corbyn is unelectable, that the polls suggest a Labour wipeout. You can drill Corbynistas with boundary changes, local election results, leader popularity polls right back to Attlee; you can point out that Theresa May spatchcocked him at PMQs; that Steven Woolfe’s Ukip will take the north; that Corbyn sacked a minister with cancer, made diligent, talented colleagues despair at his casual incompetence and they will simply reply: “I believe.”

Indeed, challenging their faith only makes it stronger. The newest recruits, with the zeal of the convert, seek out treachery as they trash honourable MPs and ransack the fragile local party infrastructure, while believing they are running moneylenders out of the temple. They stir up hatred and rancour and then, when bricks are thrown, threats are made, cry “Blairite, liar, traitor, Tory ****” because a brave and decent woman is afraid.

They probably won’t even believe that I met Angela Eagle by chance. We must have planned it, career politician and MSM (mainstream media) journalist. Beware conspiracies everywhere, comrades! Fire up the inquisition, build that rack. But I believe her: I saw in her face what they have done."


Been on hols for a while, and when I went away Eagle was, in her words, "a strong woman", when I get back she's a whimpering wreck. As they say, a week's a long time in politics.

It looks like she's not as Steely as Jezza. :greengrin

Meanwhile back in WM the Labour party continue to fight amongst themselves...same old, same old.

https://t.co/nSFxm9Azbj

[Pete]

They need a Labour government, not a protest party in the wings.

No, what they need is more affordable housing and less property investors pushing the prices up. They need more secure jobs and less Mcjobs where the big businesses are wanting more and more out of people for less reward. They want nationalised institutions that they can trust instead of private cartels that have done nothing to suggest that market forces and competition is good for the consumer.

You've been saying for months that anything that is even remotely electable is better than another conservative government. Well Ed Millibands manifesto is still up there for all to read so what went wrong there? Even the all important parliamentary labour party supported this and were behind it.
The bottom line was that it was basically the same ***** that the tories were coming out with and offered no real hope to those with nothing. For example, they promised to build 200,000 houses instead of 100,000 over a period of a few years. That's called spitting in the ocean.

This acceptable, electable alternative to a conservative government is a presidential figurehead in charge of a Labour party that's planted firmly in the middle. It's not what the impoverished in this country need. What they need is being presented to them but it's being undermined by those who would suffer big time if it were to become a reality. The sad thing is that the relentless campaign appears to be working.

[Hibbyradge]

No, what they need is more affordable housing and less property investors pushing the prices up. They need more secure jobs and less Mcjobs where the big businesses are wanting more and more out of people for less reward. They want nationalised institutions that they can trust instead of private cartels that have done nothing to suggest that market forces and competition is good for the consumer.

You've been saying for months that anything that is even remotely electable is better than another conservative government. Well Ed Millibands manifesto is still up there for all to read so what went wrong there? Even the all important parliamentary labour party supported this and were behind it.
The bottom line was that it was basically the same ***** that the tories were coming out with and offered no real hope to those with nothing. For example, they promised to build 200,000 houses instead of 100,000 over a period of a few years. That's called spitting in the ocean.

This acceptable, electable alternative to a conservative government is a presidential figurehead in charge of a Labour party that's planted firmly in the middle. It's not what the impoverished in this country need. What they need is being presented to them but it's being undermined by those who would suffer big time if it were to become a reality. The sad thing is that the relentless campaign appears to be working.

I generally agree with many of your comments but I would make a couple of points.

What peoplelse with nothing need is practical help, not false hope.

Secondly, it's no surprise that the establishment wants to undermine anyone who would seek to hurt them. That's their right and Corbyn is a sitting duck.

Apart from his politics, his history and associations will provide all the ammunition the press need to ensure he's roundly beaten in a GE.

So that's the choice in my view.

A wonderfully principled and idealistic Corbyn as leader and a bolstered Tory government which will further erode worker's rights and the welfare state.

Or another pragmatic Labour leader who can win a General Election and start the government working on behalf of those in society who need it most.

Edit: You implied thst Miliband's manifesto was rejected because it was the same shi. that the Tories offered. Yet the country voted Tory.

[RyeSloan]

I can't answer all of those questions, of course. Costed proposals are fairly unusual from political parties of any colour three and a half years before an election! What I can say is from my experience, working in both policy development and project delivery in a government department in the Blair regime, is that big policy changes and injection of funds directly to the providers of services and away from the private sector monopolies that currently have a stranglehold on the UK economy can happen surprisingly quickly when there's political will. I don't have a monopoly on wisdom but I'll need some evidence from the poster earlier who claimed It's somehow impossible or fanciful to achieve these things to change my mind. Post Office privatisation would be easy. We are TOLD a mixed economy is problematic by people who have an interest in keeping in that way. I'm pleased we're actually discussing policy for once...

Interesting post 'bollah so if I take this correctly you are saying policies are formed (or a position taken) before they are costed? How then does anyone know if it's the correct policy?

So taking the (in my eyes at least) the ludicrous proposal to renationalise the post office. Is that policy simply one of conviction, in that it should be a nationalised service no matter what the cost or the outcome? I see plenty posters attacking the Tories for ideologically imposed austerity but taking positions on policies that seem to be concept first then work everything out later seems exactly the same to me.

[hibsbollah]

Interesting post 'bollah so if I take this correctly you are saying policies are formed (or a position taken) before they are costed? How then does anyone know if it's the correct policy?

So taking the (in my eyes at least) the ludicrous proposal to renationalise the post office. Is that policy simply one of conviction, in that it should be a nationalised service no matter what the cost or the outcome? I see plenty posters attacking the Tories for ideologically imposed austerity but taking positions on policies that seem to be concept first then work everything out later seems exactly the same to me.

I completely accept there's a clash of ideologies. That's what politics is about. A war without (usually) killing.

But it's all about balance. Ironically Corbyn is being painted as an extremist or radical, but what he's actually talking about is the very essence of moderation; a mixed economy; wherein the activities that the state does best that require bureaucracy, planning and balance competing interests remain as public institutions and the private sector is the private sector.

What we have at the moment under successive Tory coalition and New Labour governments is economic extremism, neo liberalism as the governing ideology. I personally reject that vision, I think it's ridiculous that the Post Office is being forced to compete with private sector monopolies while having to run a service to rural communities and run a profit at the same time! It's impossible. The tax payer is funding the Fed Ex shareholder in this scenario and always will until the PO collapses and dies. You and I have debated this before to the point where we've probably both got bored, and are unlikely to persuade each other round, but state control of SOME economic sectors is an absolute fact of life in Asia Pacific European and Scandinavian capitalist systems, and even in the USA, before we even get started on pure 'socialist' models.

At least now it looks like I have some sort of democratic representation, which has been denied to 'my sort' for decades.

Edit-re-costings for policies, I'd hope if Corbyn or a post-Corbyn left wing Government were on the verge of taking power you'd have costings of policies available to scrutinise, but we're a long way off an election. If you asked I'd imagine the 250 billion or whatever scrappingTrident would save would fund a lot of the proposals.

[jacomo]

Corbyn is not the man for the moment but the moment is definitely coming with a ground swell amongst people who are seeing their life chances severely limited and a political establishment that looks self serving at best.

It feel very much like a changing tide in affairs but the leaders of this change are yet to emerge.

I've paid my £25 with the intention of voting against Corbyn but not I'm not so sure. He's not the man to lead the change but if he remains in place the change is more likely to progress and the right people may emerge from the upheaval.

I'm on the horns of a dilemma on this one.

I have every sympathy with your position.

I also don't want to see the cork go back in the bottle. But I'll be voting for the PR guy.

Labour needs an effective PLP leader and Jezza ain't that man.

[jacomo]

Been on hols for a while, and when I went away Eagle was, in her words, "a strong woman", when I get back she's a whimpering wreck. As they say, a week's a long time in politics.

It looks like she's not as Steely as Jezza. :greengrin

Meanwhile back in WM the Labour party continue to fight amongst themselves...same old, same old.

https://t.co/nSFxm9Azbj

I don't condone any threats made against Eagle, but FFS. Labour are in crisis here, and she fronts the coup? What were the others doing?

Angela Eagle is a born follower.

Her leadership challenge was lamentable, in a Liz Kendall kind of way.

[ronaldo7]

I don't condone any threats made against Eagle, but FFS. Labour are in crisis here, and she fronts the coup? What were the others doing?

Angela Eagle is a born follower.

Her leadership challenge was lamentable, in a Liz Kendall kind of way.

:agree: She got ideas above her abilities when taking on Gideon at the dispatch box. She put up a decent couple of performances, however she lost it when she kept on playing the gender card imo.

[Colr]

I have every sympathy with your position.

I also don't want to see the cork go back in the bottle. But I'll be voting for the PR guy.

Labour needs an effective PLP leader and Jezza ain't that man.

..or maybe the make up of the PLP needs to change?

[Colr]

:agree: She got ideas above her abilities when taking on Gideon at the dispatch box. She put up a decent couple of performances, however she lost it when she kept on playing the gender card imo.

Yvette Cooper did that in the last campaign.

Whilst the Tories just get out of the bloody way and let talented women succeed because they're the ones for the job, Labour indulges in tokenism and identity politics.

I've had more than one frustrating conversation with so-called socialists who think its fine to discriminate against a working class man who's had f all opportunities in life in favour of a middle class privately educated woman to balance up the inequalities of the past.

Working class people need the opportunities. Discrimination needs a change in mind set so people are not blocked in the first place.

[Hibbyradge]

Horrible numbers for Labour.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/11-charts-and-one-map-jeremy-corbyn-will-definitely-not-want-to-see--b1esf0cC8Ub

[Hibbyradge]

It also looks like the SNP might need to change the focus of their attacks against Labour...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/labours-woes-north-border-are-getting-worse/

[ronaldo7]

It also looks like the SNP might need to change the focus of their attacks against Labour...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/labours-woes-north-border-are-getting-worse/

They don't have to. The Greens are doing a great job. Patrick Harvie on Labour's Brexit plans.

"It’s pretty rich for Labour now to be demanding that EU citizens in Scotland should be protected or that our existing workplace rights be safeguarded - this is the party which argued against allowing the Scottish Government to gain any devolved powers over those issues.

https://t.co/YgmOU9MSvM

[Hibbyradge]

They don't have to. The Greens are doing a great job. Patrick Harvie on Labour's Brexit plans.

"It’s pretty rich for Labour now to be demanding that EU citizens in Scotland should be protected or that our existing workplace rights be safeguarded - this is the party which argued against allowing the Scottish Government to gain any devolved powers over those issues.

https://t.co/YgmOU9MSvM

Maybe the Greens should change the focus of their attacks too, then.

[ronaldo7]

Maybe the Greens should change the focus of their attacks too, then.

Are we to leave the Labour party all together, and not disturb them whilst they fight amongst themselves.

If only we had a free press to scope out all political parties in an even handed manner eh.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Are we to leave the Labour party all together, and not disturb them whilst they fight amongst themselves.

If only we had a free press to scope out all political parties in an even handed manner eh.:greengrin

I think you should continue to enjoy Labour's misfortune, and I'm sure you will.

I was referring to the figures, half way down the the article, which show a huge upturn in popularity for Ruth Davidson.

[ronaldo7]

I think you should continue to enjoy Labour's misfortune, and I'm sure you will.

I was referring to the figures, half way down the the article, which show a huge upturn in popularity for Ruth Davidson.

We'll have to work harder to stop Labour voters turning towards the Tories...Again.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

We'll have to work harder to stop Labour voters turning towards the Tories...Again.:greengrin

Don't be taking the SNP support for granted either.

You saw what happened to Labour as a result of that attitude.

A rise in Tory support is probably more of a threat to Indy than a Labour recovery, a recovery which won't happen for years, if at all.

[AndyM_1875]

Are we to leave the Labour party all together, and not disturb them whilst they fight amongst themselves.

If only we had a free press to scope out all political parties in an even handed manner eh.:greengrin

Does anyone really care what newspapers say anymore?:wink:


Right now attacking Labour is pointless, they're at war with themselves. I personally think a sustained attack on Labour from the SNP is missing the point and as Hibbyradge says they aren't the threat right now.
The Tories play the Unionist card up front, Labour don't. Most Labour voters/supporters I know aren't welded to the idea of the Union. Davidson & her mob are dangerous and they are attacking the SNP with the full backing of the most right wing government the UK has had in decades. Don't forget Kezia Dugdale supported the First Minister going to Brussels to try to secure Scotland's place.

Let be honest, who brought us this Brexit idiocy to solve an internal party dispute?
Who is trying to wriggle out of absorbing any blame for this shambles the country is in?
Who has attacked sick and disabled people for the last 6 years?
Who slags off Nicola Sturgeon as she goes about trying to preserve Scotland's place in the EU?
Who has the MSM onside doing their bidding?

The Tories. They are your political enemy.
Turn your fire on them.

[High-On-Hibs]

I like how the media narrative is that it's Corbyns fault that Labour are losing so much support from the wider electorate. Nothing at all to do with the disgraceful infighting being caused by the PLP.

[Hibbyradge]

I like how the media narrative is that it's Corbyns fault that Labour are losing so much support from the wider electorate. Nothing at all to do with the disgraceful infighting being caused by the PLP.

Corbyn is the first Labour leader to lost council seats mid-term.

That was nothing to do with the PLP.

[ronaldo7]

Does anyone really care what newspapers say anymore?:wink:


Right now attacking Labour is pointless, they're at war with themselves. I personally think a sustained attack on Labour from the SNP is missing the point and as Hibbyradge says they aren't the threat right now.
The Tories play the Unionist card up front, Labour don't. Most Labour voters/supporters I know aren't welded to the idea of the Union. Davidson & her mob are dangerous and they are attacking the SNP with the full backing of the most right wing government the UK has had in decades. Don't forget Kezia Dugdale supported the First Minister going to Brussels to try to secure Scotland's place.

Let be honest, who brought us this Brexit idiocy to solve an internal party dispute?
Who is trying to wriggle out of absorbing any blame for this shambles the country is in?
Who has attacked sick and disabled people for the last 6 years?
Who slags off Nicola Sturgeon as she goes about trying to preserve Scotland's place in the EU?
Who has the MSM onside doing their bidding?

The Tories. They are your political enemy.
Turn your fire on them.

My fire has not been turned away from the Tories.:wink: I just wish Labour would get onboard with the Scottish people rather than working against them.:wink:

[marinello59]

My fire has not been turned away from the Tories.:wink: I just wish Labour would get onboard with the Scottish people rather than working against them.:wink:

How are they working aganst them? I don't agree with much of their policies but I see no evidence of them being anti-Scottish.

[ronaldo7]

How are they working aganst them? I don't agree with much of their policies but I see no evidence of them being anti-Scottish.

Take a look at what each party brought to the table for Smith. You'll find out that even the Tories brought more than Labour. They need to free themselves from London, and start working for the people of Scotland.

[marinello59]

Take a look at what each party brought to the table for Smith. You'll find out that even the Tories brought more than Labour. They need to free themselves from London, and start working for the people of Scotland.

I agree the only way forward for them is to become an independent Scottish Labour Party.
They're not really working against the Scottish people at present though are they? There are things other than the constitutional question going on.

[ronaldo7]

I agree the only way forward for them is to become an independent Scottish Labour Party.
They're not really working against the Scottish people at present though are they? There are things other than the constitutional question going on.

Why block things from Smith, and then argue that the SG should be protecting the people from the vagaries of the Tories. If they'd allowed Industrial relations through smith, they wouldn't have to ask the SNP to stand up to the Tories and protect workers re the TU bill.

It's called long term thinking, however, I don't thing anyone's doing any thinking in Labour land these days. It's just SNP BAD.

When some on here ask to point our rifles towards the Tories, unfortunately we need to be looking behind our backs when it comes to "Scottish Labour".

[Hibbyradge]

Why block things from Smith, and then argue that the SG should be protecting the people from the vagaries of the Tories. If they'd allowed Industrial relations through smith, they wouldn't have to ask the SNP to stand up to the Tories and protect workers re the TU bill.

It's called long term thinking, however, I don't thing anyone's doing any thinking in Labour land these days. It's just SNP BAD.

When some on here ask to point our rifles towards the Tories, unfortunately we need to be looking behind our backs when it comes to "Scottish Labour".

To be honest, I don't think Labour are able to stab anyone in the back at the moment, whether in Scotland or the rUK, and it doesn't look like they'll be back on their feet for sometime, if at all.

It appears to me like the SNP are taking the easy option of kicking their traditional enemy when it's on the floor, and are missing the Tories steady rise in the polls.

[ronaldo7]

To be honest, I don't think Labour are able to stab anyone in the back at the moment, whether in Scotland or the rUK, and it doesn't look like they'll be back on their feet for sometime, if at all.

It appears to me like the SNP are taking the easy option of kicking their traditional enemy when it's on the floor, and are missing the Tories steady rise in the polls.

I've not really seen any concerted attack on any of them by the SNP. That's a bit different from pointing out their inadequacies though.:wink:

The Tories have been playing well for a while now, I just don't like their grievance politics.:greengrin

[marinello59]

Why block things from Smith, and then argue that the SG should be protecting the people from the vagaries of the Tories. If they'd allowed Industrial relations through smith, they wouldn't have to ask the SNP to stand up to the Tories and protect workers re the TU bill.

It's called long term thinking, however, I don't thing anyone's doing any thinking in Labour land these days. It's just SNP BAD.

When some on here ask to point our rifles towards the Tories, unfortunately we need to be looking behind our backs when it comes to "Scottish Labour".

So it's all just SNP bad except when it's Labour Bad. Priceless.:faf::faf:

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.sharonhodgson.org/sharon_writes_to_local_labour_party_members_on_her _resignation_and_her_support_for_owen_smith_mp

[lord bunberry]

To be honest, I don't think Labour are able to stab anyone in the back at the moment, whether in Scotland or the rUK, and it doesn't look like they'll be back on their feet for sometime, if at all.

It appears to me like the SNP are taking the easy option of kicking their traditional enemy when it's on the floor, and are missing the Tories steady rise in the polls.
I don't think that's true at all. Nicola Sturgeon has done a great job in silencing Ruth Davidson since the brexit vote. The Tory party was on a real high after the Scottish elections, now they are on the defensive and it's only the turmoil in the Labour Party that's keeping the spotlight off the tories.
Scottish politics has now become a straight fight between the SNP and the tories. Independence against the union and as much as Ruth Davidson has managed to resurrect her parties fortunes, she is fighting a losing battle.
Independence for Scotland is now inevitable. It was inevitable after the referendum, the brexit vote has only speeded up the process.

[Betty Boop]

http://www.sharonhodgson.org/sharon_writes_to_local_labour_party_members_on_her _resignation_and_her_support_for_owen_smith_mp


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-labour-leadership-dodgy-copy-theresa-may-smash-her-back-on-her-heels-a7159621.html

[ronaldo7]

So it's all just SNP bad except when it's Labour Bad. Priceless.:faf::faf:

Great stuff J.

Now on to the substantive points re SMITH, and the TU Bill:rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

17247

Corbyn visits York. I'm sure I can see Radge in amongst that crowd:greengrin

https://t.co/frrLfRqiFz The new party by the losers.

[Hibbyradge]

17247

Corbyn visits York. I'm sure I can see Radge in amongst that crowd:greengrin

https://t.co/frrLfRqiFz The new party by the losers.

I'm the bloke with his head in his hands! :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-labour-leadership-dodgy-copy-theresa-may-smash-her-back-on-her-heels-a7159621.html

That article doesn't miss!

Smash back on heels is a Welsh rugby expression, though. It doesn't refer to women's shoe heels.

Anyway, we can agree on one thing. The Labour Party is in a terrible mess, whoever is to blame.

I'll stop criticising Corbyn when he starts to show some real leadership instead of pandering to the hard left and the SWP.

I'll actively support him when he starts to look like he could win a General Election.

I'm not expecting either to happen anytime soon.

[Pretty Boy]

That article doesn't miss!

Smash back on heels is a Welsh rugby expression, though. It doesn't refer to women's shoe heels.

Anyway, we can agree on one thing. The Labour Party is in a terrible mess, whoever is to blame.

I'll stop criticising Corbyn when he starts to show some real leadership instead of pandering to the hard left and the SWP.

I'll actively support him when he starts to look like he could win a General Election.

I'm not expecting either to happen anytime soon.

I thought it was pretty clear what Smith was meaning when he used the expression. The way it has been used to beat him, and imply some kind of misogyny, is exactly the kind of thing Momentum and their supporters complain about when it happens to Corbyn.

For the record neither Smith or Corbyn inspire me to believe a Lavour resurgence is just around the corner. The lack of leadership talent in the party, from all factions, is quite depressing.

[lord bunberry]

I thought it was pretty clear what Smith was meaning when he used the expression. The way it has been used to beat him, and imply some kind of misogyny, is exactly the kind of thing Momentum and their supporters complain about when it happens to Corbyn.

For the record neither Smith or Corbyn inspire me to believe a Lavour resurgence is just around the corner. The lack of leadership talent in the party, from all factions, is quite depressing.
The fact that he had to make an apology was pathetic. It was as you say totally obvious what he meant.

[Hibbyradge]

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_579c874de4b0f42daa4a43c5

Interesting, but I'm shocked that a representative of Prospect is (was) an active member of Momentum!

[ronaldo7]

To be honest, I don't think Labour are able to stab anyone in the back at the moment, whether in Scotland or the rUK, and it doesn't look like they'll be back on their feet for sometime, if at all.

It appears to me like the SNP are taking the easy option of kicking their traditional enemy when it's on the floor, and are missing the Tories steady rise in the polls.

What did I say about watching our backs. This was only 6 weeks ago, a piece by Duncan Hothersall, "Scottish Labour" stalwart.

The comments at the bottom are interesting.

http://labourlist.org/2016/06/labour-is-a-unionist-party-comrades-from-scotland-and-england-must-work-together-to-fight-the-snp/

[Hibbyradge]

Of course the SNP must defend itself when attacked.

However, Corbyn is 105 popularity points behind Ruth Davidson in Scotland. -47 to +58.

[Hibbyradge]

This Owen Jones article, about the serious challenges currently facing the left in the UK, is well worth a read.

"The situation is extremely grave and unless satisfactory answers are offered, we are nothing but the accomplices of the very people we oppose."

https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/questions-all-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.v78yht3lk

[Betty Boop]

The Communication Workers Union 200,000 strong to back Jezza.

[Hibbyradge]

The Communication Workers Union 200,000 strong to back Jezza.

There's no doubt Corbyn will win.

There's also no doubt who will win the next General Election as a result, either.

It's an utter disgrace that there are people on the left who would prefer that the Tories ran the country, than a pragmatic Labour party.

Purity before power. Irresponsible self indulgence. But no-one listens. Let's "stick it to the man".

Meanwhile, the people who need a Labour Government most, pay the price.

Edit: Just to highlight the extent of the posturing on the left, Mark Serwotka, the General Sectretary of PCS, who called part time workers "Scabs", has pledged his union's backing for Corbyn.

The only small problem with that, is that PCS is not affiliated to the Labour Party.

[Colr]

There's no doubt Corbyn will win.

There's also no doubt who will win the next General Election as a result, either.

It's an utter disgrace that there are people on the left who would prefer that the Tories ran the country, than a pragmatic Labour party.

Purity before power. Irresponsible self indulgence. But no-one listens. Let's "stick it to the man".

Meanwhile, the people who need a Labour Government most, pay the price.

Edit: Just to highlight the extent of the posturing on the left, Mark Serwotka, the General Sectretary of PCS, who called part time workers "Scabs", has pledged his union's backing for Corbyn.

The only small problem with that, is that PCS is not affiliated to the Labour Party.

Labour needs to change first. Its too dominated by self-serving, middle class politicos. Corbyn isn't the answer but he might be the catalyst. Smith is neither.

[Hibbyradge]

Labour needs to change first. Its too dominated by self-serving, middle class politicos. Corbyn isn't the answer but he might be the catalyst. Smith is neither.

Col. I don't know if you saw my post on the PM board?

Can you get in touch with me, please, as I have info for you.

[Betty Boop]

Jezza is packing out venues up and down the country, can't say the same for Smith.

[Hibbyradge]

Jezza is packing out venues up and down the country, can't say the same for Smith.

Yup, he's popular among the idealist left. He always was. The SWP particularly love him.

Bernie Saunders packed out venues and lost within his own party.

Cold Play pack out venues. As does Britain's got talent.

I remember being in crowds of thousands picketing Thatcher's events, and at pro-Michael Foot demos etc before the 83 election. As exciting and invigorating as it was at the time, it wasn't the most accurate barometer of what was about to happen!

I wonder how many ex-Labour supporters who voted UKIP or Tory in 2015 are in Corbyn's audiences.

Because those are the people he needs to attract if he genuinely wants the power to help those most in need.

Michael Foot, " A thousand people at my rally, and they all cheered". John Golding, "122000 outside who all think you're crackers".

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CooXvoKXYAAMNJh.jpg

[hibsbollah]

Jezza is packing out venues up and down the country, can't say the same for Smith.

This is a bad thing. You just don't understand.

[Pretty Boy]

This is a bad thing. You just don't understand.

I don't think anyone has argued that. The argument is that speaking to packed rallies of his own supporters is great but it's not representative of the general public opinion of him, at least if the polls are to be believed.

I remember missing a prelim exam at school to sit on a bus for many hours to join in the region of 3/4 of a million people in London to protest the Iraq War. I was given a police caution not long after for kicking a Police van during a protest at Faslane (encouraged by a certain Tommy Sheridan I may add). Only a couple of years ago I joined however many people marching to support Scottish independence and I've lost count of the number of marches I've attended in solidarity with the Palestinians. Each and every time when caught up in the buzz with like minded people I was convinced we would be successful in bringing about the change we believed in, each and every time I was wrong. I see similar with Corbyn, he has a rabid following, he has beliefs that a lot of people probably sympathise with but whether he is connecting with enough people to motivate them to bring about the change he believes in is the issue.

Reading that back I've done not a bad amount of protesting for a brainwashed, war mongering tory.

[hibsbollah]

I don't think anyone has argued that. The argument is that speaking to packed rallies of his own supporters is great but it's not representative of the general public opinion of him, at least if the polls are to be believed.

I remember missing a prelim exam at school to sit on a bus for many hours to join in the region of 3/4 of a million people in London to protest the Iraq War. I was given a police caution not long after for kicking a Police van during a protest at Faslane (encouraged by a certain Tommy Sheridan I may add). Only a couple of years ago I joined however many people marching to support Scottish independence and I've lost count of the number of marches I've attended in solidarity with the Palestinians. Each and every time when caught up in the buzz with like minded people I was convinced we would be successful in bringing about the change we believed in, each and every time I was wrong. I see similar with Corbyn, he has a rabid following, he has beliefs that a lot of people probably sympathise with but whether he is connecting with enough people to motivate them to bring about the change he believes in is the issue.

Reading that back I've done not a bad amount of protesting for a brainwashed, war mongering tory.

I don't know where to start really. I'll start at the end; what is this last paragraph all about? Who said anything about brainwashed or war mongering or Tory? I'm assuming the ironic sarcasm is directed somewhere. I'm not much of a demonstration attender, and I've never had a police caution. It doesn't make my view any more or less valid than yours, in fact it's totally irrelevant.

Politics is about enthusiasm and grass roots activity. It's also become increasingly about connecting with your core vote. Look around the world at Trump most obviously but also France and the collapse of middle ground social democratic parties generally. I can understand cynicism because of the battering the Left has taken since the 80s but there has to be some balance to the debate. Pretending increased activism mass crowds and engagement with the 15% who didn't vote at the last election somehow 'doesn't matter' because it doesn't involve the apocryphal 'floating voter' just isn't logical. It's important.

[Pretty Boy]

I don't know where to start really. I'll start at the end; what is this last paragraph all about? Who said anything about brainwashed or war mongering or Tory? I'm assuming the ironic sarcasm is directed somewhere. I'm not much of a demonstration attender, and I've never had a police caution. It doesn't make my view any more or less valid than yours, in fact it's totally irrelevant.

Politics is about enthusiasm and grass roots activity. It's also become increasingly about connecting with your core vote. Look around the world at Trump most obviously but also France and the collapse of middle ground social democratic parties generally. I can understand cynicism because of the battering the Left has taken since the 80s but there has to be some balance to the debate. Pretending increased activism mass crowds and engagement with the 15% who didn't vote at the last election somehow 'doesn't matter' because it doesn't involve the apocryphal 'floating voter' just isn't logical. It's important.
The paragraph was missing a smilie. It was a light hearted reflection on an earlier post, not by you, that I had supported the Iraq war because the press told me to and was a Tory. It wasn't a dig at anyone other than myself and a somewhat sheepish look back at some of the daftness of my youth. There's plenty more I could list as well and it wasn't meant to imply my views were any stronger than yours.

I don't fundementally disagree that grass roots politics is imprtant. Equally though I don't think the importance of appealing to the floating voter, in the UK at any rate, should be dismissed. Since the 1990s, arguably before, we have seen an increase in personality politics in this country and elections seem far more 'presidential' than they ever have. Jeremy Corbyn will have a hardcore of voters who will vote for him regardless, he will gain support amongst 'lefties' who have felt disenfranchised since the shine of 97 wore off and he can always rely on the Labour hardcore. Is he making progress in winning back Scotland (which is crucial to Labour) or winning back the seats lost to the Conservatives at the last election? Is he attracting the Lib Dem voters who went to the Conservatives and the SNP at the last election rather than Labour (37 seats in total I think)? Is he reassuring the lost Labour voters in the heartlands who have gone to UKIP that he is the man to address their concerns? Having a passionate core base is vital but that has to be extended to win an election. I'm wary of placing too much emphasis on polls but the lastest YouGov poll this morning had Labour flatlining on 28 points, the Tories on 42 (+2), Libs Dems no change and the Greens and UKIP down 1 point each. Whatever Corbyn is saying and no matter how passionate his audience it doesn't appear to be impacting on voting intentions.

I wanted to 'like' Jeremy Corbyn. He's a principled man who has done fantastic work at constituency level, he was a thorn in the side of the Blair governments which was a crucial part to play and a lot of his beliefs aren't a million miles removed from my own. In time he may well be remembered as the man who helped awaken the social conscience of the Labour Party and someone else may well benefit from his work. Unkindly I could describe him as a means to an end, a man who may well see some of his beliefs inplemented by a future Labour government in power. Do I envisage him being the man to lead the party into power? A lot of imagination required imo.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Ooo a Tory jibe? Harsh. I sympathise.

The poll numbers obviously have to be seen in the context of the Chicken Coup. Noones going to vote for a party in the state the Labour Party's in currently, whatever Corbyn says. I mean, I wouldn't vote for the Labour Party currently either. Certainly not until some discipline is imposed somewhere. The bloodletting is underway and it isn't going to be a quick process.

I tend to agree about a means to an end. Just because I disagree with the caricature of him as a laughable failure doesn't mean I think he's a perfect leader. And if that's the case, if Corbyn shifts the whole national political conversation to the left (as he's already done with Owen Smith), and future leaders and hopefully PMs take some progressive and radical policies forward instead of the Miliband lite nonsense we would have been fed under Yvette Cooper or whoever, then it will have been worthwhile.

[fulshie]

I started this thread back in August and even though JC got elected labour leader (democratically I have to say), they find themselves in turmoil. The problem I have with the in-fighting is that, it gives the right wing tories a free hand at re-writing the rule book once the so called article 50 is activated to come out of Europe. What bothers me most is how this will affect workers up and down the country. e,g Holiday pay is guaranteed under European law, paternity leave is protected, the right to a pension is protected and many other things. So what's going to happen when we leave and there is no credible opposition to raise questions about the rewritten laws that will undoubtedly come about?

[AndyM_1875]

Jezza is packing out venues up and down the country, can't say the same for Smith.

He's preaching to his fanclub. Smith isn't really known that well but that will change as the hustings take place.

Despite being a serial protestor for 30 years I found it strange how poorly Corbyn came over at last night's Cardiff hustings. Standing there in one of Martin Bell's old suits he looked old and resorted to mantras. Smith played it without notes, spoke freely and wasn't outdone in the socialism stakes. I knew very little about him beforehand and he presented himself well last night, hitting the right note on a number of occasions.

[Hibbyradge]

Another spectacular own goal.

What a leader he truly is!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36983112

[cabbageandribs1875]

i caught a story on sky news yesterday morning and thought it was a wee clip of some comedy act appearing at the Edinburgh Fringe, it wasn't though, it was jeremy telling everyone that his aim is to build 1 million new houses in 4 years and create 1 million 'good quality' jobs, does he get his magic wand from the same shop as warburton

[Pretty Boy]

i caught a story on sky news yesterday morning and thought it was a wee clip of some comedy act appearing at the Edinburgh Fringe, it wasn't though, it was jeremy telling everyone that his aim is to build 1 million new houses in 4 years and create 1 million 'good quality' jobs, does he get his magic wand from the same shop as warburton

To me policy along these lines, partcularly in regard to housing, is what Labour should be looking at. Both social housing and affordable housing are severely lacking across the UK, there's figures out this week to back that up. Building houses by it's very nature creates all sorts of jobs as well.

What this needs though, even at this early stage, is more information about how it will be paid for otherwise a hostile press will dust off the 'tax and spend' Labour headlines. And if the plan is to tax and spend then be clear about it and let people make a decision.

[cabbageandribs1875]

To me policy along these lines, partcularly in regard to housing, is what Labour should be looking at. Both social housing and affordable housing are severely lacking across the UK, there's figures out this week to back that up. Building houses by it's very nature creates all sorts of jobs as well.

What this needs though, even at this early stage, is more information about how it will be paid for otherwise a hostile press will dust off the 'tax and spend' Labour headlines. And if the plan is to tax and spend then be clear about it and let people make a decision.


exactly, though i think the claim of creating up to a million jobs is total nonsense :bitchy: i think councils in scotland will start to build a lot more houses now that the 'right to buy' scheme has came to an end. no idea about other councils but west lothian council have certainly started doing just that

[lord bunberry]

Another spectacular own goal.

What a leader he truly is!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36983112
Speaking of own goals
17276

[Pretty Boy]

Speaking of own goals
17276

Texts a bit blurred on my phone. Who is that 1st tweet from? If it's from someone in the Smith canp then that's mental.

[lord bunberry]

Texts a bit blurred on my phone. Who is that 1st tweet from? If it's from someone in the Smith canp then that's mental.
It's from someone called Philip Jardine who is from the Smith camp. He's now backtracking claiming it was a wind up. I'm not convinced tbh.

[Hibbyradge]

Speaking of own goals
17276

:faf:

The Labour Party truly is a basket case.

[Hibbyradge]

:faf:

The Tories must be pishing themselves.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/08/labour-must-allow-all-members-leadership-vote-court-rules

[ronaldo7]

:faf:

The Tories must be pishing themselves.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/08/labour-must-allow-all-members-leadership-vote-court-rules

A victory for common sense. Something which seems lacking in the high office of the NEC. This crowdfunding malarky is pegging back those who wish to deny the right of the people.

[RyeSloan]

A victory for common sense. Something which seems lacking in the high office of the NEC. This crowdfunding malarky is pegging back those who wish to deny the right of the people.

What a total mess...the NEC should be embarrassed by causing yet more division and further shaking of heads at Labours current state.

[Betty Boop]

Labour are appealing ! :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

Labour are appealing ! :rolleyes:

Not to very many, they're not :wink:

[Betty Boop]

Not to very many, they're not :wink:
Boom boom ! :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Labour are appealing ! :rolleyes:

Labour won a court case against Labour, who in turn, are appealing against Labour.:greengrin

If you've been missold a Labour party registered supporter vote, just call Labour as Thousands of £££ to be re-paid.

[Betty Boop]

Labour won a court case against Labour, who in turn, are appealing against Labour.:greengrin

If you've been missold a Labour party registered supporter vote, just call Labour as Thousands of £££ to be re-paid.

Its hard to keep up ! :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

I've just been phone canvassed by a member of the Owen Smith team. Nothing positive to say about Smith at all, just melodrama and smears 'Jeremy undermined one of his MPs who was fighting a battle with cancer' etc etc. It was like being on here.

I was very polite.

[Hibbyradge]

I've just been phone canvassed by a member of the Owen Smith team. Nothing positive to say about Smith at all, just melodrama and smears 'Jeremy undermined one of his MPs who was fighting a battle with cancer' etc etc. It was like being on here.

I was very polite.

Smith's only hope of winning, and it's an extremely slim hope, is by drawing people's attention to Corbyn's unsuitability to the role of leader.

He's never going to win on policy, because Corbyn's dream list will always trump anyone who actually tries to cost their policies.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Even if Labour could sort out the mess in their own party, which seems a long way off, the main problem that the new leader will face is that the tories aren't as evil as they used to be.

The Tory agenda these days is fairly centre and Theresa May's speech outside number 10 can't be far off what a centre ground labour prime minister would have said. Ok the tory party is still predominantly run by toffs and there are still some signs of old school policies (Osbourne's cut to tax credits last year) but they were shouted down within their own party. These days the tories talk about things like gay marriage, wind farms, helping low-earning working families, equality in the work place etc and it's more difficult for labour to claim the moral high ground.

The only way I can see labour winning an election is if the tories move back to the right or if they chose someone massively unpopular as a leader. As someone posted before, the most competent centre ground party will win and right now that's the tories by a county mile.

[hibsbollah]

Even if Labour could sort out the mess in their own party, which seems a long way off, the main problem that the new leader will face is that the tories aren't as evil as they used to be.

The Tory agenda these days is fairly centre and Theresa May's speech outside number 10 can't be far off what a centre ground labour prime minister would have said. Ok the tory party is still predominantly run by toffs and there are still some signs of old school policies (Osbourne's cut to tax credits last year) but they were shouted down within their own party. These days the tories talk about things like gay marriage, wind farms, helping low-earning working families, equality in the work place etc and it's more difficult for labour to claim the moral high ground.

The only way I can see labour winning an election is if the tories move back to the right or if they chose someone massively unpopular as a leader. As someone posted before, the most competent centre ground party will win and right now that's the tories by a county mile.

Only in a parallel universe could today's Tories be occupying 'the centre ground'. Look at their policies.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Only in a parallel universe could today's Tories be occupying 'the centre ground'. Look at their policies.

Where would you place the tories on the political spectrum? My point was more that they've moved close enough to the centre to prevent labour winning and they're not nearly as horrible as they used to.

[Smartie]

Where would you place the tories on the political spectrum? My point was more that they've moved close enough to the centre to prevent labour winning and they're not nearly as horrible as they used to.

They're horrible enough.

And the European referendum suggests to me that there is an appetite amongst the electorate to move further right.

The conservatives have a lot less moving to do to get there.

I acknowledge the policies you mention are decent ones but on the whole they an austerity party with an austerity agenda and as long as I live I will have a healthy mistrust of the conservative party and their motives.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

They're horrible enough.

And the European referendum suggests to me that there is an appetite amongst the electorate to move further right.

The conservatives have a lot less moving to do to get there.

I acknowledge the policies you mention are decent ones but on the whole they an austerity party with an austerity agenda and as long as I live I will have a healthy mistrust of the conservative party and their motives.

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to come on to a thread about the Labour leadership and advocate the tories. But whether it's a deliberate choice or by subconsciously moving with the times, the tories have moved towards the centre and are now more appealing to centre ground labour voters. Labour don't know whether to counter this by being trying to fight for the (ever decreasing) middle ground between the parties or by moving further to the left. The new leader will need to address this and it's difficult to see how they can do this while also uniting the party. Good luck to whoever it is because we need a strong opposition in Westminster.

[ronaldo7]

A piece by Michael Gray on the leadership challenge by Smith. It seems that Smith would rather have another Tory government than work with the SNP.

https://t.co/0Jev1D9G7u

I prefer the Wee ginger Dug.

http://www.thenational.scot/comment/wee-ginger-dug-the-union-is-killing-labour-in-scotland.20979

It would seem that when a supporter of Scottish independence waves a saltire, that’s nationalism and it’s a bad thing, but when a supporter of the Union waves a Union flag, that’s patriotism and it’s a good thing. But then British nationalism was always characterised by the firm and unshakeable belief that it’s better than all other forms of nationalism by virtue of the fact that it’s not nationalist at all, it’s just patriotic.

[Hibbyradge]

Here's another devastating critique of Old Corbo by another erstwhile Shadow Minister, who did not support the recent 'No Confidence' vote!

Given what's in this article and attachment, what rational - not emotional or fact-free statements of blind faith - reason can there be for continuing to support this proven incompetent and guaranteed loser?

https://jodatu.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/another-uklabour-mp-sets-out-in-excruciating-detail-whycorbyn4all-not-fit-to-lead-wearehismedia/lĺ

[Betty Boop]

Here's another devastating critique of Old Corbo by another erstwhile Shadow Minister, who did not support the recent 'No Confidence' vote!

Given what's in this article and attachment, what rational - not emotional or fact-free statements of blind faith - reason can there be for continuing to support this proven incompetent and guaranteed loser?

https://jodatu.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/another-uklabour-mp-sets-out-in-excruciating-detail-whycorbyn4all-not-fit-to-lead-wearehismedia/lĺ

Oops that page can't be found ! :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Oops that page can't be found ! :greengrin

That was another meaningless victory for you to enjoy. 😉

This link works for me.

https://jodatu.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/another-uklabour-mp-sets-out-in-excruciating-detail-whycorbyn4all-not-fit-to-lead-wearehismedia/

[Betty Boop]

That was another meaningless victory for you to enjoy. 😉

This link works for me.

https://jodatu.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/another-uklabour-mp-sets-out-in-excruciating-detail-whycorbyn4all-not-fit-to-lead-wearehismedia/

Nope not for me.

[Hibbyradge]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/762927303110295552

[Hibbyradge]

Try this

https:// guerillawire.org/welfare/another-uklabour-mp-sets-out-in-excruciating-detail-whycorbyn4all-not-fit-to-lead-wearehismedia/

[Hibbyradge]

It just gets funnier every day!

It appears that Jezza has been involved in informal talks to allow the 'Militant Tendency' back into the Labour Party, but accuses Tom Watson of fostering conspiracy theories about Trotskyist infiltration of the Labour Party!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/10/leader-expelled-leftwing-group-militant-peter-taaffe-readmission-labour-corbyn

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37057589

What fun!

[Pretty Boy]

What a bloody shambles.

The Tories should be at their most vulnerable in years and they are breezing through without hint of a challenge whilst Labour implodes. All involved should be ashamed.

[Hibbyradge]

Inagine if/when Corbyn wins and May decided to call a snap election in the Spring!

Carnage.

[marinello59]

Inagine if/when Corbyn wins and May decided to call a snap election in the Spring!

Carnage.

If Corbyn wins the party will split.

[RyeSloan]

If Corbyn wins the party will split.

At a parliamentary level at least that looks certain..

[lucky]

If Corbyn wins the party will split.

Not convinced a split will take place. If the anti Corbyn MPs walk and form a new party then they will lose their seats come an election. Lots of Labour voters vote for the party not the candidates. So a new party will lose and lose badly. That's not to say the real winners will be the Tories followed by SNP, UKIP and the Lib Dems

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe it's just one of my personality quirks or something, but if I was going on a pre-planned 3 hour train journey, I'd book a seat.

[Hibbyradge]

This article highlights just some of the electoral difficulties Labour will face when Corbyn is re-elected.

If you don't want to read about the various rag bag trots who are hijacking the LP, scroll down to the first newspaper cuttings and start reading a paragraph or two above them.

If anyone can suggest how Labour can prevail with a leader carrying that sort of baggage, I'd be genuinely interested.

I've tried to find some positive writing which gives a credible argument that JC can win, but apart from hopeful and predictable rhetoric, I've come up short.

I have spent an enjoyable few minutes looking at The Socialist Worker, however. It's exactly the same as it's always been, but somehow even funnier.

"Tritsky was right, we need a revolution" screams one of the headlines! Like they doubted it for a second. 😂😂😂

https://medium.com/@JRogan3000/labour-entryism-and-northern-ireland-8d9f7c738a09#.gij3vb5o4

[Betty Boop]

This article highlights just some of the electoral difficulties Labour will face when Corbyn is re-elected.

If you don't want to read about the various rag bag trots who are hijacking the LP, scroll down to the first newspaper cuttings and start reading a paragraph or two above them.

If anyone can suggest how Labour can prevail with a leader carrying that sort of baggage, I'd be genuinely interested.

I've tried to find some positive writing which gives a credible argument that JC can win, but apart from hopeful and predictable rhetoric, I've come up short.

I have spent an enjoyable few minutes looking at The Socialist Worker, however. It's exactly the same as it's always been, but somehow even funnier.

"Tritsky was right, we need a revolution" screams one of the headlines! Like they doubted it for a second. 😂😂😂

https://medium.com/@JRogan3000/labour-entryism-and-northern-ireland-8d9f7c738a09#.gij3vb5o4


:blah::blah: Jezza will 'skoosh' the leadership contest. Tritsky ? :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

:blah::blah: Jezza will 'skoosh' the leadership contest. Tritsky ? :greengrin

:blah::blah: = :ostrich::ostrich:

[cabbageandribs1875]

oooh...kezia dugdale backing owen smith

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37150430

Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale is backing Owen Smith in the Labour Party leadership contest.
She said Mr Smith could reunite the party and win a general election.


think she's dreaming a bit about Labour winning an election :hilarious

[Hibbyradge]

oooh...kezia dugdale backing owen smith

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37150430

Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale is backing Owen Smith in the Labour Party leadership contest.
She said Mr Smith could reunite the party and win a general election.


think she's dreaming a bit about Labour winning an election :hilarious

Labour needs to be credible and ready for when the country goes into meltdown when we leave the EU.

With Corbyn at the helm, there is no chance of that.

However, I've no doubt Corbyn will win and my thoughts are turning to the question of how to minimise the inevitable Tory victory at the next GE.

The great thing about being a Corbynista, is that you don't really care if the Tories win, as long as you remain pure.

Carefree posturing. What's not to like? :hilarious

[ronaldo7]

LABOUR MPs opposed to Jeremy Corbyn are planning to establish a rebel group in Westminster if he wins the leadership election, it was reported yesterday.

According to the SundayTimes, the dissidents will look to sign up more than 100 MPs to join the Co-operative party, Labour’s sister party, and sit as “double hatted” MPs, rather than forming a full-scale breakaway party.

They would appoint their own whips in parliament to co-ordinate rebellions where they disagree with Corbyn’s policy and look to change the rules to appoint an elected Shadow Cabinet, as previously called for by the party’s deputy leader Tom Watson.

They argue Corbyn and Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell, both members of the leftwing Socialist Campaign Group of MPs, would struggle to criticise the move after they voted against the Labour leadership from the backbenches when in power.

“We’re just getting started. There will be a new grouping within the PLP, a lot like Corbyn and McDonnell had. We will stick together for mutual support. We will have our own approach on the economy and Brexit and national security,” a source told the paper,

The Co-operative party has held an electoral agreement with Labour since 1927 that allows them to stand joint candidates in elections.

MPs Stella Creasy, Jonathan Ashworth, Gareth Thomas, John Woodcock and Louise Ellman are among the 25 Labour MPs also to be members of the Co-operative party.

Corbyn is expected to win the election because of the backing from grassroots members.

The result is to be announced on September 24.

https://t.co/20UB71ZF9e

[Hibbyradge]

Thanks for that, Ronnie.

I need to digest it a bit more, but on the face of it, that sounds quite an interesting prospect.

A breakaway would gift the party's buildings, infrastructure and finance to the trots, so this might be a decent half way house.

Unless the SNP decide to stand a candidate in York outer, I think I'll remain an interested observer!

[Hibbyradge]

The Co-operative Party has issued the following statement in response to recent media speculation surrounding its relationship with the Labour Party

Responding to recent media speculation surrounding the Co-operative Party’s relationship with the Labour Party, a spokesperson for the Co-operative Party said:

The Co-operative Party was created 99 years ago to champion the co-operative movement and that remains our mission today.

We are not a vehicle to be used by one political faction or another to advance their own agenda.

The Co-operative Party has worked with Labour under each of its leaders since 1927 and remains neutral on the current leadership contest within the Labour Party.

The Co-operative Party NEC has had no discussions about changing the way the Party operates based on the outcome of the Labour Leadership contest.”

Ends

[cabbageandribs1875]

jeremy is a nawty man

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167700

Virgin Trains has questioned footage showing Jeremy Corbyn sitting on the floor of a "ram-packed" service.
In a film shown on The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/16/jeremy-corbyn-floor-three-hour-train-journey-london-newcastle), the Labour leader said he was experiencing a problem "many passengers face every day" on the London to Newcastle train.
But Virgin said CCTV showed Mr Corbyn and his team walking past available seating before starting filming. :hilarious

[HappyAsHellas]

Don't believe everything you read............I happen to know these empty seats belonged to yam season ticket holders.

[Hibbyradge]

Don't believe everything you read............I happen to know these empty seats belonged to yam season ticket holders.

:thumbsup:

What a fud he is, though.

Honest, no spin Jeremy, my arse.

[Hibbyradge]

Dan Fox
Dan Fox – ‏@d4nf0x

BREAKING: Virgin Trains announces extra fire extinguishers on trains next time Corbyn travels with them in order to deal with his pants.

6:03 AM - 23 Aug 2016

[ballengeich]

The leader of a party which wants to govern the UK should be able to book a seat on a train. If he doesn't have the time to perform this elementary action himself he should be able to find subordinates to carry out the task.

[hibsbollah]

The leader of a party which wants to govern the UK should be able to book a seat on a train. If he doesn't have the time to perform this elementary action himself he should be able to find subordinates to carry out the task.

Aye, these are the kind of burning issues that the country needs to be dealing with.

[Pete]

Even after the latest Corbyn character assassination, the issues of overcrowding on trains and prices rising twice as fast as wages are still there.

A little less pressure on the money machines and all attention diverted towards crazy Jeremy Corbyn. That didn't half work out well for them. Again. :agree:

[Hibbyradge]

Aye, these are the kind of burning issues that the country needs to be dealing with.

Corbyn made it an issue, no one else.

I didn't see many folk on here taking that attitude to the revelation that Cameron may once have harboured a fondness for dead pig heads.

[Hibbyradge]

Even after the latest Corbyn character assassination, the issues of overcrowding on trains and prices rising twice as fast as wages are still there.

A little less pressure on the money machines and all attention diverted towards crazy Jeremy Corbyn. That didn't half work out well for them. Again. :agree:

I didn't see any character assassination.

I saw a stupid man caught trying to manipulate the public. He could have made his point in any number of ways, but chose to mislead in order to self aggrandise as the "man of the people" instead.

As a result he exposed himself as an untrustworthy hypocrite.

He is stupid because the renationalisation of the railways is about as uncontroversial a "left wing" policy as you could find.

When Labour finally rids itself of Corbyn and wins a general election, as long as compensation funding is in place, taking the trains back into public hands will gain public approval.

Stunts like that just add to the ever growing examples of why Corbyn isn't PM material, even leaving aside his prehistoric politics.

Although, for the sake of those in the country who desperately need a Labour government, I'd prefer if Corbyn was defeated next month, there's an ever growing part of me that's looking forward to see the train crash that will be his leadership term when he inevitably wins (pun intended).

Has there ever been a leader with so much baggage? As far as the Tories are concerned, Corbyn is the gift that doesn't stop giving.

The truly shocking thing is, they've not even started on him yet!

[RyeSloan]

I didn't see any character assassination.

I saw a stupid man caught trying to manipulate the public. He could have made his point in any number of ways, but chose to mislead in order to self aggrandise as the "man of the people" instead.

As a result he exposed himself as an untrustworthy hypocrite.

He is stupid because the renationalisation of the railways is about as uncontroversial a "left wing" policy as you could find.

When Labour finally rids itself of Corbyn and wins a general election, as long as compensation funding is in place, taking the trains back into public hands will gain public approval.

Stunts like that just add to the ever growing examples of why Corbyn isn't PM material, even leaving aside his prehistoric politics.

Although, for the sake of those in the country who desperately need a Labour government, I'd prefer if Corbyn was defeated next month, there's an ever growing part of me that's looking forward to see the train crash that will be his leadership term when he inevitably wins (pun intended).

Has there ever been a leader with so much baggage? As far as the Tories are concerned, Corbyn is the gift that doesn't stop giving.

The truly shocking thing is, they've not even started on him yet!

I'm sure there are plenty commuter trains into London he could have looked to make his point on...of course some reasoning as to why and how the trains would be nationalised would have been handy along with his stunt. All he has managed to do is make a total erse of himself.

New politics? Aye right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

I'm sure there are plenty commuter trains into London he could have looked to make his point on...of course some reasoning as to why and how the trains would be nationalised would have been handy along with his stunt. All he has managed to do is make a total erse of himself.

New politics? Aye right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree in most part, but how's and whys are not necessary in British politics anymore.

See Brexit for (lack of) details.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167253

Owen Smith has said he will try to stop Theresa May triggering official EU exit talks unless she offers a referendum on the final Brexit deal or agrees to call a general election to approve it.
The Labour leadership challenger said if he is elected, the party will oppose triggering Article 50 until the government commits to a second vote.

but we've already had a referendum, i thought once we have referendums in GB we have to accept the result and move on :confused: or so some labour voters kept telling us after the indy referendum


corbyn and smith...the laurel and hardy of the 21st century, what a giggle

[Hibbyradge]

It's easier to whinge and complain than it is to make decisions.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/24/labour-complains-tories-govern

[marinello59]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167253

Owen Smith has said he will try to stop Theresa May triggering official EU exit talks unless she offers a referendum on the final Brexit deal or agrees to call a general election to approve it.
The Labour leadership challenger said if he is elected, the party will oppose triggering Article 50 until the government commits to a second vote.

but we've already had a referendum, i thought once we have referendums in GB we have to accept the result and move on :confused: or so some labour voters kept telling us after the indy referendum


corbyn and smith...the laurel and hardy of the 21st century, what a giggle

So do you disagree with him or do the views of a handful of Labour voters engaging in pointless tit for tat spats on Social media with SNP supporters nullify everything he says?
I think he is right, any Brexit deal has to at least come back before Parliament.

[hibsbollah]

I'm sure there are plenty commuter trains into London he could have looked to make his point on...of course some reasoning as to why and how the trains would be nationalised would have been handy along with his stunt. All he has managed to do is make a total erse of himself.

New politics? Aye right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1. The train he was on WAS crowded.
2. There IS a problem in this country with overcrowded trains.
3. He couldn't get two seats together so sat on the floor.
4. Two people on the train were interviewed saying the train was packed out and he couldn't get two seats together. The cctv footage doesn't prove or disprove that. Branson hardly has an interest in promoting a socialist prime minister, after all. Let's try and manipulate the news.

But the facts of what actually happened are of course irrelevant and unimportant. It's all spin. Essentially, I trust his policies to do something about the railways more than anyone else.

[Pretty Boy]

So do you disagree with him or do the views of a handful of Labour voters engaging in pointless tit for tat spats on Social media with SNP supporters nullify everything he says?
I think he is right, any Brexit deal has to at least come back before Parliament.

Spot on.

Whoever wins the Labour leadership contest has to put Article 50 as one of the key points in their manifesto whether that be to hold a 2nd referendum or not invoke it if Labour wins.