Labour Party Leadership

[RyeSloan]

I've not opened the link but let me guess. Another pop at Jeremy Corbyn from a publication with a conservative editorial stance? :hmmm:

The Economist is quite happy to have a pop at the Tories as well...sure it's a free market publication and this is not Bagehot's finest piece (in fact I'm not blown over by the reasonably new columnist that's taken the mantle) but you can't constantly dismiss criticism as right wing editorial stances or MSM agendas.

I've listened to a lot of what Corbyn has had to say and I must admit so far he, as he himself, has said pretty much zero. The first PMQ's summed it up. Ask questions from some random joe public and claim it was the new way...great but I'd rather HE stood up and asked his own questions and put forward some real world solutions. So far no go on any thing substantial from him on that front I would say, not that anyone will be falling off their stool hearing me say that ;-)

[Hibbyradge]

The Economist is quite happy to have a pop at the Tories as well...sure it's a free market publication and this is not Bagehot's finest piece (in fact I'm not blown over by the reasonably new columnist that's taken the mantle) but you can't constantly dismiss criticism as right wing editorial stances or MSM agendas.

I've listened to a lot of what Corbyn has had to say and I must admit so far he, as he himself, has said pretty much zero. The first PMQ's summed it up. Ask questions from some random joe public and claim it was the new way...great but I'd rather HE stood up and asked his own questions and put forward some real world solutions. So far no go on any thing substantial from him on that front I would say, not that anyone will be falling off their stool hearing me say that ;-)

You're correct though. :agree:

[steakbake]

What would a Labour defection to the Tories mean?

[marinello59]

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21669968-labour-partys-new-leader-mission-show-his-supporters-lovely-time-hi-de-hi

I hate to say it but there were several bulls eyes scored there.

[ronaldo7]

Looks like Corbyn's bowed to SNP pressure, and will now vote alongside them, and against the Tory Fiscal charter.

I wonder if he'll take all of the party with him.

[lucky]

It was John MCDonell that changed his mind on the tactics on how to vote. I doubt the new Labour MPs will follow the whip.

Has SNP govt came out against the anti trade union bill yet?

[ronaldo7]

It was John MCDonell that changed his mind on the tactics on how to vote. I doubt the new Labour MPs will follow the whip.

Has SNP govt came out against the anti trade union bill yet?

:wink: The times, they are a changing. The 16,000 SNP trade unionist agree.

http://t.co/ItPzid9hww

This seems to answer your question re the SNP and our Trade Unions.

[xyz23jc]

:wink: The times, they are a changing. The 16,000 SNP trade unionist agree.

http://t.co/ItPzid9hww

This seems to answer your question re the SNP and our Trade Unions.

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/top%20marks.gif" I'm lovin' lovin' lovin' it!...." :agree::greengrinhttp://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/thumbs%20up.gif

[Hibrandenburg]

:wink: The times, they are a changing. The 16,000 SNP trade unionist agree.

http://t.co/ItPzid9hww

This seems to answer your question re the SNP and our Trade Unions.

Sturgeon gets stuck in about labour in her conference speech. "Corbyn being changed by his party rather than changing it".

[marinello59]

Sturgeon gets stuck in about labour in her conference speech. "Corbyn being changed by his party rather than changing it".

Corbyn's problem is one of utter incompetence. Nice guy who says some nice things but he simply isnt a leader. Unlike Sturgeon who is a natural leader.

[Hibrandenburg]

Corbyn's problem is one of utter incompetence. Nice guy who says some nice things but he simply isnt a leader. Unlike Sturgeon who is a natural leader.

If I'm honest I agree with much of what he says, it's what he says that I don't agree with that worries me and that makes him unelectable.

[Pete]

Personally, I couldn't give a monkeys about what he looks like, how much of a "leader" he comes across as or how well he would potentially do in a debating hall full of guffawing opponents. The policies shine through all that and speak to me but it's just a shame that elections are so "presidential".

The bottom line is that the general public are stupid. They don't listen to manifestos and make rational decisions, they subconsciously vote for figureheads who they think are presentable/assertive/nice looking. They vote for slick mouthpieces like Cameron or Blair who are backed to the hilt by huge media campaigns and a ridiculous amount of spin.

I have conversations with a sizeable amount of strangers every day and the reactions are mainly the same when I mention Jeremy Corbyn. "He hates Britain", "He likes the IRA", "he's a bumbler", "he wants to abolish the army" etc...
The sad thing is that they have been taken in by the media capaign, oh-so-clever journalists and those who promote their work as food for thought. The people involved in presenting this image are probably never going to be effected by the changes to tax credits and would probably lose out if people were not giving half their wages to them to live in their pension pot.

Money talks though and I think people will start to wake up when the letter telling them they will be four figures worse off hits their mat. I hope to god they then look at Tories for what they are and really look at the policies on offer from the alternatives. I'm not confident though as the only left wing party we have is being relentlessly ridiculed to the extent that they, sorry, their leader will become "unelectable". It's almost as if they are doing it deliberately to deflect attention away from something.

"Labour shambles blah blah"....ach well, I guess we've no alternative than to just accept benefit cuts and tax breaks for the rich. I'd rather have "economic security" than someone who hates the queen" :rolleyes:

[HiBremian]

Personally, I couldn't give a monkeys about what he looks like, how much of a "leader" he comes across as or how well he would potentially do in a debating hall full of guffawing opponents. The policies shine through all that and speak to me but it's just a shame that elections are so "presidential".

The bottom line is that the general public are stupid. They don't listen to manifestos and make rational decisions, they subconsciously vote for figureheads who they think are presentable/assertive/nice looking. They vote for slick mouthpieces like Cameron or Blair who are backed to the hilt by huge media campaigns and a ridiculous amount of spin.

I have conversations with a sizeable amount of strangers every day and the reactions are mainly the same when I mention Jeremy Corbyn. "He hates Britain", "He likes the IRA", "he's a bumbler", "he wants to abolish the army" etc...
The sad thing is that they have been taken in by the media capaign, oh-so-clever journalists and those who promote their work as food for thought. The people involved in presenting this image are probably never going to be effected by the changes to tax credits and would probably lose out if people were not giving half their wages to them to live in their pension pot.

Money talks though and I think people will start to wake up when the letter telling them they will be four figures worse off hits their mat. I hope to god they then look at Tories for what they are and really look at the policies on offer from the alternatives. I'm not confident though as the only left wing party we have is being relentlessly ridiculed to the extent that they, sorry, their leader will become "unelectable". It's almost as if they are doing it deliberately to deflect attention away from something.

"Labour shambles blah blah"....ach well, I guess we've no alternative than to just accept benefit cuts and tax breaks for the rich. I'd rather have "economic security" than someone who hates the queen" :rolleyes:

The most "effective" leader Labour had, in terms of achievments in office, was undoubtedly Clement Attlee, the "man who stepped out of an empty taxi" ;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[lucky]

:wink: The times, they are a changing. The 16,000 SNP trade unionist agree.

http://t.co/ItPzid9hww

This seems to answer your question re the SNP and our Trade Unions.

Yet again youve have failed to answer the question. You post sa link to the Nats website but no answers so has the Scottish Govt came out against the anti trade union bill? All of Scotland's council have but the SNP govt have been silent on it.

[xyz23jc]

Yet again youve have failed to answer the question. You post sa link to the Nats website but no answers so has the Scottish Govt came out against the anti trade union bill? All of Scotland's council have but the SNP govt have been silent on it.

What you mean like this? Silent enough for you.....

~http://www.government-world.com/snp-to-fight-dickensian-tory-trade-union-bill/?page_id=183157&print=pdf

[lucky]

What you mean like this? Silent enough for you.....

~http://www.government-world.com/snp-to-fight-dickensian-tory-trade-union-bill/?page_id=183157&print=pdf


Can't open the link. So I'll take your word that they are going to fight it Westminster but are they committing to ignore it like the councils?

[Moulin Yarns]

Can't open the link. So I'll take your word that they are going to fight it Westminster but are they committing to ignore it like the councils?


The Scottish National Party will strongly oppose the introduction of the UKgovernment’s trade union reform bill ahead of its second reading atWestminster today. The regressive Bill will impose higher voting thresholdsin strike ballots, end the ban on the use of agency workers during strikes,and introduce restrictions on picketing and protesting.


SNP MP Chris Stephens said:”The SNP is committed to protecting the rights of workers and ensuring fairand equitable employment practices. That’s why SNP MPs are doing everythingwe can to fight the introduction of this Dickensian Tory trade union bill,which contains regressive policies more suited to the 19th century than the21st.


“The SNP are calling on MPs to form a progressive alliance to block thisbill. Our amendment seeks to do just that and we hope that MPs from acrossthe chamber will support it.


The text of the SNP amendment is as follows:“That this House declines to give the Trade Union Bill a Second Reading asthe bill threatens the rights of citizens in the UK to pursue industrialdisputes by legitimate means, fails to adhere to article 5 of the Council ofEurope Social Charter, the right to organise, article 6 of the SocialCharter, the right to bargain collectively, and international LabourOrganisation conventions 87 and 98, therefore placing unreasonablerestrictions on the rights of trade unions and their members, nor providesfull employment protection from the first day of employment.”

That silent enough for you?

[johnbc70]

Still never got an answer as to why a 50% turnout for a union vote is a bad thing.

If a union feels so strongly about something to take it to a vote then surely to take it to the point of a vote they have canvassed opinions amongst members and feel confident they will win. Why then would getting a 50% turnout (not vote in favour) be such a big problem? If less than half cannot even be bothered to even vote then was it really that important in the first place?

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Still never got an answer as to why a 50% turnout for a union vote is a bad thing.

If a union feels so strongly about something to take it to a vote then surely to take it to the point of a vote they have canvassed opinions amongst members and feel confident they will win. Why then would getting a 50% turnout (not vote in favour) be such a big problem? If less than half cannot even be bothered to even vote then was it really that important in the first place?

Completely agree with the above. I don't even understand why the 50% rule is even controversial. Strikes cost the public time and money and it's not something unions should be doing lightly.

Anyway, as for Corbyn, he's been really disappointing so far. I thought he'd really mix it up and make politics a bit more interesting. All he's done so far is look incompetent and been owned by Cameron is PMQ.

[lucky]

That silent enough for you?

Nope still nothing there from the SNP government. The MPs are going to fight it, excellent but nothing from Holyrood saying they will ignore it like the councils. In West Lothian the SNP councillors even voted against the motion stating WLC would ignore it. I want the SNP government to stand up for workers not just being against it in Westminster

[Moulin Yarns]

Nope still nothing there from the SNP government. The MPs are going to fight it, excellent but nothing from Holyrood saying they will ignore it like the councils. In West Lothian the SNP councillors even voted against the motion stating WLC would ignore it. I want the SNP government to stand up for workers not just being against it in Westminster

This is a Westminster issue so nothing said at holyrood would change that. My quotes are from the SNP statement.

You clearly are trolling

[marinello59]

This is a Westminster issue so nothing said at holyrood would change that. My quotes are from the SNP statement.

You clearly are trolling

I think you are misunderstanding what Lucky is saying here.

[lucky]

This is a Westminster issue so nothing said at holyrood would change that. My quotes are from the SNP statement.

You clearly are trolling

Your clearly choosing to ignore the FACT that the Scottish government have been silent on this. They can come and say they won't stop facility time, check off and will instruct Police Scotland to ignore the ridiculous proposals on picketing. But they haven't. The SNP are choosing to do nothing whilst councils across the country are standing up for workers. I want the Nat government to come out in support of the unions, I don't want them to do nothing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Your clearly choosing to ignore the FACT that the Scottish government have been silent on this. They can come and say they won't stop facility time, check off and will instruct Police Scotland to ignore the ridiculous proposals on picketing. But they haven't. The SNP are choosing to do nothing whilst councils across the country are standing up for workers. I want the Nat government to come out in support of the unions, I don't want them to do nothing.


Read what was said by Roseanna Cunningham at th SNP conference FFS

I am not sure what your agenda is. I'm backing up the SNP position even though I am a member of another party.

In fact, I wonder why you are attacking the SNP at all when it is the Tories that want to hammer the Unions. That should be the target of your dissatisfaction.

[marinello59]

Read what was said by Roseanna Cunningham at th SNP conference FFS

I am not sure what your agenda is. I'm backing up the SNP position even though I am a member of another party.

In fact, I wonder why you are attacking the SNP at all when it is the Tories that want to hammer the Unions. That should be the target of your dissatisfaction.

To be fair you spend most of your time on these threads backing up absolutely everything the SNP comes out with. Maybe you joined the wrong party?:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

To be fair you spend most of your time on these threads backing up absolutely everything the SNP comes out with. Maybe you joined the wrong party?:greengrin

Ha ha. True but it annoys me that supporters of a busted flush have nothing better to do than continually dig at the SNP rather than look at the failure of their own party.

[lucky]

Not really into reading Cunningham's speeches I just want a statement from them saying they'll ignore this legislation. I'm not aware of your politics or which party you belong too but you do defend them an awful lot.

[RyeSloan]

Not really into reading Cunningham's speeches I just want a statement from them saying they'll ignore this legislation. I'm not aware of your politics or which party you belong too but you do defend them an awful lot.

I'm not clear on what you are wanting. Are you wanting the Scottish Government to say that if the TU Bill becomes UK law that they will deliberately ignore it and actively and publicly tell the police not to enforce it despite it being a non devolved issue?

[hibsbollah]

Any chance of just closing this thread, since it stopped being about the OP ages ago, despite repeated attempts to turn it back? ive had enough Petty squabbling between the SNP and ScottishLabour during the referendum to last a lifetime, to be honest. Fair bit of trolling going on as well.

[lucky]

I'm not clear on what you are wanting. Are you wanting the Scottish Government to say that if the TU Bill becomes UK law that they will deliberately ignore it and actively and publicly tell the police not to enforce it despite it being a non devolved issue?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm wanting.. The picketing laws can be made a low priority but with all the other issues the police have deal with managing pickets is not something they should be wasting their time on

[Moulin Yarns]

Your clearly choosing to ignore the FACT that the Scottish government have been silent on this. They can come and say they won't stop facility time, check off and will instruct Police Scotland to ignore the ridiculous proposals on picketing. But they haven't. The SNP are choosing to do nothing whilst councils across the country are standing up for workers. I want the Nat government to come out in support of the unions, I don't want them to do nothing.

You are clearly not wanting to admit that the SNP have been very vocal about this.

[ronaldo7]

Yet again youve have failed to answer the question. You post sa link to the Nats website but no answers so has the Scottish Govt came out against the anti trade union bill? All of Scotland's council have but the SNP govt have been silent on it.

We'll not be pushed around by a party who have 1 (one) MP in Scotland.

You've been given copious amounts of information on the SNP position on the TU Bill, but you seem to want to dismiss it. Up to you I suppose. Keeping your head in the sand doesn't get you any more votes bud.

Another link for you to trash.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34560125

However, if, and when your Tory pals decide to bring forward the TU bill in the commons, the SNP will stand ready to vote against it.

Not too sure ALL the Labour MP's will decide to do likewise, Just like the Fiscal charter vote.:aok:

I'd hope you'll put as much effort into persuading your pal Neil Findlay to get his pal Jezza to respond to the letter from "OUR" First Minister regarding having the Trade Union and Employment law devolved to Holyrood, so we don't need to have bun fights with each other, and instead can take the fight to the Tories instead. #notholdingmybreath

15544

[lucky]

We'll not be pushed around by a party who have 1 (one) MP in Scotland.

You've been given copious amounts of information on the SNP position on the TU Bill, but you seem to want to dismiss it. Up to you I suppose. Keeping your head in the sand doesn't get you any more votes bud.

Another link for you to trash.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34560125

However, if, and when your Tory pals decide to bring forward the TU bill in the commons, the SNP will stand ready to vote against it.

Not too sure ALL the Labour MP's will decide to do likewise, Just like the Fiscal charter vote.:aok:

I'd hope you'll put as much effort into persuading your pal Neil Findlay to get his pal Jezza to respond to the letter from "OUR" First Minister regarding having the Trade Union and Employment law devolved to Holyrood, so we don't need to have bun fights with each other, and instead can take the fight to the Tories instead. #notholdingmybreath

15544

My Tory pals, is that the level your at? I'm glad that you think I have the ear of the leadership to get him to respond to a letter. I want the Nats to stand up against the bill and want the Scottish Government to tell them to ram it. As for additional powers they are coming but they will never suffice Nationalists. I think that all Labour MPs will vote against the bill as they did in the first stage.

[Bishop Hibee]

Still never got an answer as to why a 50% turnout for a union vote is a bad thing.

If a union feels so strongly about something to take it to a vote then surely to take it to the point of a vote they have canvassed opinions amongst members and feel confident they will win. Why then would getting a 50% turnout (not vote in favour) be such a big problem? If less than half cannot even be bothered to even vote then was it really that important in the first place?

The Tories make it as difficult as possible for Trade Union members to vote. Voting online not considered and no workplace distribution or collection of ballot papers. How many MPs got 50% of the vote? Local elections never gave a 50% turnout let alone candidates getting 50% of those eligible to vote.

Without Trade Unions there would be no sick pay, no minimum wage and no holiday pay. Think about that.

[RyeSloan]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm wanting.. The picketing laws can be made a low priority but with all the other issues the police have deal with managing pickets is not something they should be wasting their time on

OK well I think you are asking for the impossible then. The SNP have been quite clear on their opposition to the Bill but for you to want the Scottish Government to start picking and choosing what UK wide laws they will enforce or ignore is just odd. Where would such a stance start and stop?

[ronaldo7]

My Tory pals, is that the level your at? I'm glad that you think I have the ear of the leadership to get him to respond to a letter. I want the Nats to stand up against the bill and want the Scottish Government to tell them to ram it. As for additional powers they are coming but they will never suffice Nationalists. I think that all Labour MPs will vote against the bill as they did in the first stage.

During the election of Corbyn, it was Neil this, and Neil that. Sorry if I got it wrong, and you're just a bottom feeder:aok: Everyone needs them:aok:

Plenty of stuff to indicate where the SNP stand on this issue. It's just that you're ignoring it to further your cause of Nat bashing.

I'm away to fight the Tories...See ye:greengrin

[johnbc70]

The Tories make it as difficult as possible for Trade Union members to vote. Voting online not considered and no workplace distribution or collection of ballot papers. How many MPs got 50% of the vote? Local elections never gave a 50% turnout let alone candidates getting 50% of those eligible to vote.

Without Trade Unions there would be no sick pay, no minimum wage and no holiday pay. Think about that.

You never answered the question? Still pretty simple, if it is really really important then getting 50% turnout should not be a problem. If 50% cannot even bother to vote then can't have been that important after all.

[Hibrandenburg]

My Tory pals, is that the level your at? I'm glad that you think I have the ear of the leadership to get him to respond to a letter. I want the Nats to stand up against the bill and want the Scottish Government to tell them to ram it. As for additional powers they are coming but they will never suffice Nationalists. I think that all Labour MPs will vote against the bill as they did in the first stage.

Thought you were against independence, now it seems you'd like the Scottish government to rise up and defy the very authority you were defending a few months back. Wish you'd make your mind up.

[Beefster]

During the election of Corbyn, it was Neil this, and Neil that. Sorry if I got it wrong, and you're just a bottom feeder:aok: Everyone needs them

Classy. I think Hibsbollah was spot on about this thread but I'd extend it to half of the threads on the Holy Ground.

PS I'll no doubt get told to 'get over myself' or 'lighten up'.

[lucky]

During the election of Corbyn, it was Neil this, and Neil that. Sorry if I got it wrong, and you're just a bottom feeder:aok: Everyone needs them:aok:

Plenty of stuff to indicate where the SNP stand on this issue. It's just that you're ignoring it to further your cause of Nat bashing.

I'm away to fight the Tories...See ye:greengrin

You post some guff on here. Bottom feeder? Tory pals! You really are a sad wee person.? For the record I do know Neil but hardly going to run to him to get a letter sent at your bequest. Clearly you don't wish anything to be said against the Nats. But I'm glad your away to fight the Tories but can you elaborate on what you are doing?

[ronaldo7]

You post some guff on here. Bottom feeder? Tory pals! You really are a sad wee person.? For the record I do know Neil but hardly going to run to him to get a letter sent at your bequest. Clearly you don't wish anything to be said against the Nats. But I'm glad your away to fight the Tories but can you elaborate on what you are doing?

At my Bequest:faf:

Some of your posts are leaving a legacy on here. :wink: Sorry if you took umbrage at the bottom feeder comment, it was meant to be in reference to an activist/helper/leaflet dropper, just like me:greengrin However since you know Neil, I'll take it back:wink:

Better leave it here before your pals tell me off again, or put the link police onto me.

[lucky]

At my Bequest:faf:

Some of your posts are leaving a legacy on here. :wink: Sorry if you took umbrage at the bottom feeder comment, it was meant to be in reference to an activist/helper/leaflet dropper, just like me:greengrin However since you know Neil, I'll take it back:wink:

Better leave it here before your pals tell me off again, or put the link police onto me.

Leaving a legacy on a fans forum, now that's an achievement I've went from being a bottom feeder to leaving a legacy in one post according to you. Could you explain as I'm lost now

[lucky]

Finally some evidence the Scottish government will oppose the bill in its entirety

http://stucbetterway.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/stuc-general-secretary-at-snp-conference.html?spref=tw&m=1

[BroxburnHibee]

Ok folks the thread title makes it pretty obvious what this is is meant to be about.

Last chance to get it back on track.

Feel free to start another SNP v Labour thread.

I'm sure there's at least 2 posters who'll love that :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok folks the thread title makes it pretty obvious what this is is meant to be about.

Last chance to get it back on track.

Feel free to start another SNP v Labour thread.

I'm sure there's at least 2 posters who'll love that :wink:

Can I kick of with the news that Lord Warner has resigned the whip because he thinks (rightly or wrongly) that Labour is no longer credible under the current leadership.

Lord Prescott replied that it was no great loss

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34577720

:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Can I kick of with the news that Lord Warner has resigned the whip because he thinks (rightly or wrongly) that Labour is no longer credible under the current leadership.

Lord Prescott replied that it was no great loss

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34577720

:greengrin

Inevitable and I'm sure more will follow. As Prescott says, it will largely depend on the ego of the individual, and the genuine concern for the good of the party he has, how much noise he makes.

[lucky]

Warner will not be the last new Labour type to leave. The party members have spoken and JC and his brand of politics is where we are at. I generally would not mind a split in the party as progress/New Labour would fall away the same as SDLP. JC is also promising more autonomy to the Scottish Labour party. His start has been a bit stuttery but it's his politics that count more than his look.

[lucky]

Ok folks the thread title makes it pretty obvious what this is is meant to be about.

Last chance to get it back on track.

Feel free to start another SNP v Labour thread.

I'm sure there's at least 2 posters who'll love that :wink:

Point taken 👍

[Hibbyradge]

His start has been a bit stuttery but it's his politics that count more than his look.

His appearance has had nothing to do with his shaky start, unfortunately. It's been down to his politics.

He does seem a principled man, but his principles aren't shared by the people he needs to get back on side.

If Ed Milliband was too left wing for the electorate, I don't know what they'll make of Corbyn. Or rather, I do.

The folk who call Blair, "Tory Light", are in for a shock when Dave and Gideon unleash full fat Tory.

I'm moving to a constituency where the Tory MP increased his majority.

Labour was miLes behind in second due to the utter collapse of the usual runners up, the liberals.

Corbyn's Labour have no chance and this is in Yorkshire, not the battle ground of middle England.

Principles are great, sure, but pragmatism and astute politics wins you power.

Nick Griffin has principles too...

[marinello59]

His appearance has had nothing to do with his shaky start, unfortunately. It's been down to his politics.

He does seem a principled man, but his principles aren't shared by the people he needs to get back on side.

If Ed Milliband was too left wing for the electorate, I don't know what they'll make of Corbyn. Or rather, I do.

The folk who call Blair, "Tory Light", are in for a shock when Dave and Gideon unleash full fat Tory.

I'm moving to a constituency where the Tory MP increased his majority.

Labour was miLes behind in second due to the utter collapse of the usual runners up, the liberals.

Corbyn's Labour have no chance and this is in Yorkshire, not the battle ground of middle England.

Principles are great, sure, but pragmatism and astute politics wins you power.

Nick Griffin has principles too...

I agree with all of that.

[hibsbollah]

His appearance has had nothing to do with his shaky start, unfortunately. It's been down to his politics.

He does seem a principled man, but his principles aren't shared by the people he needs to get back on side.

If Ed Milliband was too left wing for the electorate, I don't know what they'll make of Corbyn. Or rather, I do.

The folk who call Blair, "Tory Light", are in for a shock when Dave and Gideon unleash full fat Tory.

I'm moving to a constituency where the Tory MP increased his majority.

Labour was miLes behind in second due to the utter collapse of the usual runners up, the liberals.

Corbyn's Labour have no chance and this is in Yorkshire, not the battle ground of middle England.

Principles are great, sure, but pragmatism and astute politics wins you power.

Nick Griffin has principles too...

I agree, he needs policies the mass of the UK will support. And he does; polling shows the majority of the public support his stance on a wide range of things including rent controls on landlords, a compulsory living wage, cutting tuition fees, a scandinavian top rate of 75% on millionaires, a moratorium on nuclear weapons, renationalising the railways and the post office, not bombing Syria and obviously Iraq. The more people highlight what his policies actually are,the better for him.

He has also narrowed the 'voting intention' gap on the Tories since the election. Unsurprisingly, this has managed to be widely ignored by the MSM.

It is, of course, very possible that despite the popularity of some of his policies, the constant drip drip of negative caricatures and propaganda will make him unelectable. We shall see.

[Hibbyradge]

I agree, he needs policies the mass of the UK will support. And he does; polling shows the majority of the public support his stance on a wide range of things including rent controls on landlords, a compulsory living wage, cutting tuition fees, a scandinavian top rate of 75% on millionaires, a moratorium on nuclear weapons, renationalising the railways and the post office, not bombing Syria and obviously Iraq. The more people highlight what his policies actually are,the better for him.

He has also narrowed the 'voting intention' gap on the Tories since the election. Unsurprisingly, this has managed to be widely ignored by the MSM.

It is, of course, very possible that despite the popularity of some of his policies, the constant drip drip of negative caricatures and propaganda will make him unelectable. We shall see.

And along came the economy.

And taxation.

I'm doubtful, but like you, I'll wait and see, hoping that the "policies" he's kicked into the long grass will resurface, properly packaged and paid for.

After all, I have nowhere else to go. Again.

[lucky]

JC is still finding his feet the next election is 41/2 years away. I'm hopeful that Labour will offer a clear alternative to the tories and the SNP. Labour have lost Scotland and need to find a way to get the people to engage with them again. In England the challenges are different yet the same, the policies must be inclusive but must be true to JCs principals. If the country rejects Labour for being true to itsself then so be it. I think it's highly unlikely that New Labour or a version of it will ever get control of the party again. The EU referendum could be a defining moment in UK politics as the Tory left and Labour right look to the middle ground to stop UKIP and the left from taking the UK out of the EU and triggering another referendum.

[Hibbyradge]

Regarding current voting intentions;

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-10-14/corbynHelp.png


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-10-19/corbynPolicy.png


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-10-19/corbynBenefit.png

All from here;

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/10/20/analysis-could-corbyn-become-prime-minister/

[Beefster]

Regarding current voting intentions...

Makes a mockery of all the claims about needing a left-wing Labour Party and how folk would return to Labour in their droves.

I find it a bit sad that someone a bit different from all the other PR folk who run the other parties, including Sturgeon, is going to be destroyed and mean that we don't get anything different again for a long time.

[hibsbollah]

Regarding current voting intentions;

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-10-14/corbynHelp.png


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-10-19/corbynPolicy.png


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-10-19/corbynBenefit.png

All from here;

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/10/20/analysis-could-corbyn-become-prime-minister/

I was basing my previous post on this...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news-14-5/the-jeremy-corbyn-policies-that-most-people-actually-agree-with-10407148.html

It's about picking and choosing what's achievable without losing authenticity. 4 and a half years is a long time, and it will take time. One things for sure, negativity doesn't win anything. It would be good if folk who don't like his policies admit they would never support him whatever the polls say, instead of pretending their dislike is based on his chance of success. (I'm not necessarily accusing anyone in particular).

[Hibbyradge]

I was basing my previous post on this...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news-14-5/the-jeremy-corbyn-policies-that-most-people-actually-agree-with-10407148.html

It's about picking and choosing what's achievable without losing authenticity. 4 and a half years is a long time, and it will take time. One things for sure, negativity doesn't win anything. It would be good if folk who don't like his policies admit they would never support him whatever the polls say, instead of pretending their dislike is based on his chance of success. (I'm not necessarily accusing anyone in particular).

There are a load of people who don't like his policies because they lessen Labour's chance of success.

Policies about Iraq, Nationalising Railways and capping top earners' salaries might be popular (although I wonder how the public would feel if all the top players in the EPL buggered off to Germany or Spain for more dosh!), but they don't get you votes in General Elections.

When Labour start putting forward real policies about the NHS, abolishing benefit caps and scrapping tuition fees (if that ever reappears from the long grass), the age old question about where the money will come from will raise its head and be repeated ad nauseum.

Labour has no palatable answer. Closing tax loopholes and reducing evasion isn't a credible strategy. In fact, I'm certain the Tories will preempt Labour by closing as many evasion schemes etc as they can.

So that leaves increasing income tax. If the Tories are good to their word (I did say "if") they will pass a law guaranteeing no rise in income tax rates, VAT or national insurance before 2020. I think that's a foolhardy thing for a government to do, but it would virtually end any remaining hope that Corbyn could somehow win.

Can you imagine how popular a manifesto which contained a pledge to repeal such legislation would be?

Labour are in grave danger of shriveling away altogether.

My view is that the party should bite the bullet and declare it's support for electoral reform. Offering the public the real possibility of ending FPTP might just keep Labour's head above water.

I genuinely don't think they have anything to lose by doing so anymore.

[lucky]

There are a load of people who don't like his policies because they lessen Labour's chance of success.

Policies about Iraq, Nationalising Railways and capping top earners' salaries might be popular (although I wonder how the public would feel if all the top players in the EPL buggered off to Germany or Spain for more dosh!), but they don't get you votes in General Elections.

When Labour start putting forward real policies about the NHS, abolishing benefit caps and scrapping tuition fees (if that ever reappears from the long grass), the age old question about where the money will come from will raise its head and be repeated ad nauseum.

Labour has no palatable answer. Closing tax loopholes and reducing evasion isn't a credible strategy. In fact, I'm certain the Tories will preempt Labour by closing as many evasion schemes etc as they can.

So that leaves increasing income tax. if the Tories are good to their word (I did say "if") they will pass a law guaranteeing no rise in income tax rates, VAT or national insurance before 2020. I think that's a foolhardy thing for a government to do, but it would virtually end any remaining hope that Corbyn could somehow win.

Can you imagine how popular a manifesto which contained a pledge to repeal such legislation would be?

Labour are in grave danger of shriveling away altogether.

My view is that the party should bite the bullet and declare it's support for electoral reform. Offering the public the real possibility of ending FPTP might just keep Labour's head above water.

I genuinely don't think they have anything to lose by doing so anymore.

I agree about change to the electrol system but not to save Labour. PR is more democratic and forces politicians to work together to come up with solutions.

[Hibbyradge]

I agree about change to the electrol system but not to save Labour. PR is more democratic and forces politicians to work together to come up with solutions.

I agree with PR and have done for years.

I also think it's the only thing that will save Labour now.

On another note, I wonder how well this will go down in the marginals (https://medium.com/@KateVotesLabour/so-mr-corbyn-what-made-you-appoint-facism-apologist-seumas-milne-a17699132dae#.j6i5f4me9)!

[hibsbollah]

I agree with PR and have done for years.

I also think it's the only thing that will save Labour now.

On another note, I wonder how well this will go down in the marginals (https://medium.com/@KateVotesLabour/so-mr-corbyn-what-made-you-appoint-facism-apologist-seumas-milne-a17699132dae#.j6i5f4me9)!

Seamus Milne is a good appointment. That link is just ridiculous, littered with quotes taken out of context in the worst tradition of tabloid journalism. Milking Lee Rigbys death for political gain is beyond disgusting.

Your previous post misses the central point of the Corbyn campaign, it's very clear where the money will come from, it will come from tax rises. A rise in income tax for the well off is inevitable if you oppose austerity, and the population will need to be persuaded that that is in their own best interests. 40% for a millionaire isnt ethical or economucally sustainable. It's about time we all had least had that policy as a choice to vote for.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Seamus Milne is a good appointment. That link is just ridiculous, littered with quotes taken out of context in the worst tradition of tabloid journalism. Milking Lee Rigbys death for political gain is beyond disgusting.

Your previous post misses the central point of the Corbyn campaign, it's very clear where the money will come from, it will come from tax rises. A rise in income tax for the well off is inevitable if you oppose austerity, and the population will need to be persuaded that that is in their own best interests. 40% for a millionaire isnt ethical or economucally sustainable. It's about time we all had least had that policy as a choice to vote for.


Not ethical in your opinion. You could also quite reasonably make the claim that the state taking, without your permission, more than that 400,000 pounds plus that you already pay every year, and giving you no say as to how it is used is unethical.

Sustainability is another issue, but one of my main problems with the left is the way they feel that they have a monopoly on righteousness. Like taking more of a self-made millionaire's hard earned cash to feed the faceless, undemocratic, government bureaucracy to doll it out for electoral and ideological purposes is any more ethical. If i paid 400k per year in tax (hopefully one day!) then im fairly sure i would think that was a large enough contribution for one person to make. Why does the government have the right to invade personal liberty and just help itself to somebody else's wealth?

These issues should be debated without the emotive language IMO.

[lucky]

I agree with PR and have done for years.

I also think it's the only thing that will save Labour now.

On another note, I wonder how well this will go down in the marginals (https://medium.com/@KateVotesLabour/so-mr-corbyn-what-made-you-appoint-facism-apologist-seumas-milne-a17699132dae#.j6i5f4me9)!

I doubt his appointment will be noticed by many outside of politics. As I've said the Labour Party has 2/3 years to get ready for the next GE.

[hibsbollah]

Not ethical in your opinion. You could also quite reasonably make the claim that the state taking, without your permission, more than that 400,000 pounds plus that you already pay every year, and giving you no say as to how it is used is unethical.

Sustainability is another issue, but one of my main problems with the left is the way they feel that they have a monopoly on righteousness. Like taking more of a self-made millionaire's hard earned cash to feed the faceless, undemocratic, government bureaucracy to doll it out for electoral and ideological purposes is any more ethical. If i paid 400k per year in tax (hopefully one day!) then im fairly sure i would think that was a large enough contribution for one person to make. Why does the government have the right to invade personal liberty and just help itself to somebody else's wealth?

These issues should be debated without the emotive language IMO.

:dunno: By 'emotive language' I assume you mean my use of the word 'unethical'? What is the point of politics if not to debate morals and ethics?

Reading the rest of your post brings me to the conclusion you aren't likely to be won round by Corbyn, because you are ideologically opposed to his sort, or an ideologue in other words. (Again, this sort of language is fair game in politics I reckon, I'm probably a bit of an ideologue myself). Re-righteousness, I sometimes feel the same way about the British establishment/Right/whatever; the mythical 'power of the market' has taken on a mythical, almost religious meaning that can't be challenged. Never mind that half of Europe and many other global economies operate a high tax, high investment model, as far as the UK is concerned any attempt at limited reigning in of the power of the market is seen as dangerously subversive. I consider my politics quite moderate, it's those who would continue to decimate the state while propping up multinationals who I see as radical.

But that's a bit off topic :greengrin

[johnbc70]

Top tax band is 45% not 40%. Did France not have to reverse a high top rate of income tax after only a few years as it just never worked? Don't know many who would vote for higher taxes!

[hibsbollah]

Top tax band is 45% not 40%. Did France not have to reverse a high top rate of income tax after only a few years as it just never worked? Don't know many who would vote for higher taxes!

Hollande dropped the 75% top rate after pressure from the business lobby,whether the policy 'worked' or not is a bit of an open question. 60% of the public approved of the rate even though his government is very unpopular.

People don't like taxes, but they don't like crumbling schools and rubbish hospitals either. It depends on what you think is fair.

[easty]

Top tax band is 45% not 40%. Did France not have to reverse a high top rate of income tax after only a few years as it just never worked? Don't know many who would vote for higher taxes!

Yeah France had 75% tax rate for earnings over €1m. It's been bumped down to 45% now though.

[Colr]

Hollande dropped the 75% top rate after pressure from the business lobby,whether the policy 'worked' or not is a bit of an open question. 60% of the public approved of the rate even though his government is very unpopular.

People don't like taxes, but they don't like crumbling schools and rubbish hospitals either. It depends on what you think is fair.

Look forward to seeing the Scottish Parliament introducing its own tax bands shortly.

[RyeSloan]

Hollande dropped the 75% top rate after pressure from the business lobby,whether the policy 'worked' or not is a bit of an open question. 60% of the public approved of the rate even though his government is very unpopular. People don't like taxes, but they don't like crumbling schools and rubbish hospitals either. It depends on what you think is fair.

Is it fair to say the UK has crumbling schools and rubbish hospitals? Glasgow just opened a near £1bn hospital, portobello is getting a £40m new school.

I'm sure there is plenty of other investment going on just as I'm sure there is plenty more needed but this constant rubbishing of the UK, it's education and health care and everything else gets on my nerves a bit. It's like the grass is always greener if only we could tax and spend even more money that we don't have.

Corbyn's policies are out dated and pretty myopic if you ask me (ok I know you didn't as you already know my response!)...I'm all for change but rent controls and re-nationalisation, really is that the best he can come up with? Maybe he should go for a full out Chavista policy that he was so fond of, that's proven just how good central control works and where it always inevitably ends up so why not just crack on?

[Colr]

Is it fair to say the UK has crumbling schools and rubbish hospitals? Glasgow just opened a near £1bn hospital, portobello is getting a £40m new school.

I'm sure there is plenty of other investment going on just as I'm sure there is plenty more needed but this constant rubbishing of the UK, it's education and health care and everything else gets on my nerves a bit. It's like the grass is always greener if only we could tax and spend even more money that we don't have.

Corbyn's policies are out dated and pretty myopic if you ask me (ok I know you didn't as you already know my response!)...I'm all for change but rent controls and re-nationalisation, really is that the best he can come up with? Maybe he should go for a full out Chavista policy that he was so fond of, that's proven just how good central control works and where it always inevitably ends up so why not just crack on?

All of Glasgow's secondary schools were renewed only 14 years ago

[johnbc70]

Hollande dropped the 75% top rate after pressure from the business lobby,whether the policy 'worked' or not is a bit of an open question. 60% of the public approved of the rate even though his government is very unpopular.

People don't like taxes, but they don't like crumbling schools and rubbish hospitals either. It depends on what you think is fair.

Reading this it seems pretty clear it never worked. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax

[hibsbollah]

All of Glasgow's secondary schools were renewed only 14 years ago

Whoa, whoa you two. If you go back and check I didn't say anything about BRITAIN having 'crumbling schools and hospitals'. I was drawing a GENERAL distinction between the implications of high taxation high spend on one hand and low taxation low spend on the other.

[hibsbollah]

Reading this it seems pretty clear it never worked. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax

Its up for debate. But of course France is only one example of a high tax economy (Sweden Holland Denmark Finland all have successful capitalist economies with varying degrees of high taxation).

[Hibbyradge]

Seamus Milne is a good appointment. That link is just ridiculous, littered with quotes taken out of context in the worst tradition of tabloid journalism. Milking Lee Rigbys death for political gain is beyond disgusting.



And that's my exact point.

Good appointment or nit, how's it going to go down with the folk who ran from Ed Milliband, if a Labour supporter can write an article like that?

[Hibbyradge]

I doubt his appointment will be noticed by many outside of politics. As I've said the Labour Party has 2/3 years to get ready for the next GE.

I'm guessing that the Tory PR machine along with the right wing press will make sure it's noticed.

[RyeSloan]

Whoa, whoa you two. If you go back and check I didn't say anything about BRITAIN having 'crumbling schools and hospitals'. I was drawing a GENERAL distinction between the implications of high taxation high spend on one hand and low taxation low spend on the other.

Fair enough you didn't specify the country although the statement was made in the context of UK income tax rates so I would suggest that it was an easy leap for me to surmise that it was in relation to the UK ;-)

With regards to tax rates I'm amazed only 60% of the French thought clobbering millionaires was a good idea...you tend to find people have no problems with taxes that they don't think they have to pay themselves. Quite how any government thinks it would be morally correct to tax someone's income at 75% is beyond me. Jeez I think it's shocking that the UK government thinks it's OK to take 40% of anything above £42k...

Tis about time the contributors to the governments finances started to get some recognition, or dare I say it even some thanks rather than being seen as constant source of more and more taxation. Corbyn's NI plans are a classic example of that and one of the many ways that shows the guy to maybe have the correct intentions but completely the wrong approach to them ever being realised.

[lucky]

Is it fair to say the UK has crumbling schools and rubbish hospitals? Glasgow just opened a near £1bn hospital, portobello is getting a £40m new school.

I'm sure there is plenty of other investment going on just as I'm sure there is plenty more needed but this constant rubbishing of the UK, it's education and health care and everything else gets on my nerves a bit. It's like the grass is always greener if only we could tax and spend even more money that we don't have.

Corbyn's policies are out dated and pretty myopic if you ask me (ok I know you didn't as you already know my response!)...I'm all for change but rent controls and re-nationalisation, really is that the best he can come up with? Maybe he should go for a full out Chavista policy that he was so fond of, that's proven just how good central control works and where it always inevitably ends up so why not just crack on?

Public ownership of the railways & post office is hardly old fashioned ideas. They make common sense to most people according to the polls. What does not make sense is allowing the French , German and Dutch state railway companies run the UK railways and invest the profits in their countries. The Royal Mail was flogged off to cheaply and with lead to the demise of the universal delivery service.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Public ownership of the railways & post office is hardly old fashioned ideas. They make common sense to most people according to the polls. What does not make sense is allowing the French , German and Dutch state railway companies run the UK railways and invest the profits in their countries. The Royal Mail was flogged off to cheaply and with lead to the demise of the universal delivery service.


I don't know about the post office (genuinely don't know enough about it) but the idea of universal post does seem to be increasingly anachronistic. And i did always think the cost of a stamp was pretty cheap.

Despite not being on the left, im not convinced that private railways is the answer. Lots of countries seem to have very impressive state-owned systems. Im just not sure capitalism works where there isnt effective competition, and franchises dont seem to do that.

Also, the Edinburgh Buses model seems to me a good one, a private company that is majority (or substantially) publically owned operating (successfully) to provide a public service and thrive commercially. Why cant this model be replicated?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

:dunno: By 'emotive language' I assume you mean my use of the word 'unethical'? What is the point of politics if not to debate morals and ethics?

Reading the rest of your post brings me to the conclusion you aren't likely to be won round by Corbyn, because you are ideologically opposed to his sort, or an ideologue in other words. (Again, this sort of language is fair game in politics I reckon, I'm probably a bit of an ideologue myself). Re-righteousness, I sometimes feel the same way about the British establishment/Right/whatever; the mythical 'power of the market' has taken on a mythical, almost religious meaning that can't be challenged. Never mind that half of Europe and many other global economies operate a high tax, high investment model, as far as the UK is concerned any attempt at limited reigning in of the power of the market is seen as dangerously subversive. I consider my politics quite moderate, it's those who would continue to decimate the state while propping up multinationals who I see as radical.

But that's a bit off topic :greengrin

Aye, fair points mate. I probably put that badly. Ive got a long-standing gripe about the way that the left (or some on the left) think that they have a monopoly on wantitng to do good. Taking from other people shouldnt be seen as worthy per se, and definitely not an end in itself. It also riles me when lefties accuse the spending cuts of being 'ideologically driven' - well of course they are, in the same way as higher spending under Labour is ideologically driven.

I actually do like Corbyn - i dont agree with his politics, but i like that he has some genuinely held beliefs, and that they are pretty aligned with Labour Party ideals. I can understand why Labour people voted for him.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't know about the post office (genuinely don't know enough about it) but the idea of universal post does seem to be increasingly anachronistic. And i did always think the cost of a stamp was pretty cheap.




Would you feel the same if you lived in the north of Scotland and had to do business by mail? Rural communities are penalised by higher costs for almost everything, and a universal postal charge is one of the few things that does not penalise their remoteness.

[RyeSloan]

Would you feel the same if you lived in the north of Scotland and had to do business by mail? Rural communities are penalised by higher costs for almost everything, and a universal postal charge is one of the few things that does not penalise their remoteness.

Penalised? Hardly. It's a consequence of their decision to be located there, if the associated costs of running a business in that location are too high for them to be competitive then they should move location...a universal postal service will not change that.

Just because something was needed or was valuable before doesn't mean it is today.

I'm sure I'm not going to get people to agree with me on this and vice versa but in the end of the day I'd like to see new solutions to modern problems not rehashed failed approaches from yesteryear. It all smacks of a lack of vision to me and one that I find rather depressing.

[Colr]

Would you feel the same if you lived in the north of Scotland and had to do business by mail? Rural communities are penalised by higher costs for almost everything, and a universal postal charge is one of the few things that does not penalise their remoteness.

But they pay **** all for their houses.

[Moulin Yarns]

Penalised? Hardly. It's a consequence of their decision to be located there, if the associated costs of running a business in that location are too high for them to be competitive then they should move location...a universal postal service will not change that.

Just because something was needed or was valuable before doesn't mean it is today.

I'm sure I'm not going to get people to agree with me on this and vice versa but in the end of the day I'd like to see new solutions to modern problems not rehashed failed approaches from yesteryear. It all smacks of a lack of vision to me and one that I find rather depressing.


Point 1, not everybody chooses where they live and work, there are many factors involved.

Point 2, Royal mail currently has a universal charge regardless of location, if/when that goes should everybody move to London to get the lowest postal costs?

Point 3, Royal mail aint broke, so doesn't need fixing.

[Moulin Yarns]

But they pay **** all for their houses.


:faint: :ostrich:

[CapitalGreen]

Penalised? Hardly. It's a consequence of their decision to be located there, if the associated costs of running a business in that location are too high for them to be competitive then they should move location...a universal postal service will not change that.

Just because something was needed or was valuable before doesn't mean it is today.

I'm sure I'm not going to get people to agree with me on this and vice versa but in the end of the day I'd like to see new solutions to modern problems not rehashed failed approaches from yesteryear. It all smacks of a lack of vision to me and one that I find rather depressing.

What about businesses that are location specific. Not exactly viable for a visitor centre for a historic site on Orkney for example to relocate to the central belt is it?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Would you feel the same if you lived in the north of Scotland and had to do business by mail? Rural communities are penalised by higher costs for almost everything, and a universal postal charge is one of the few things that does not penalise their remoteness.

True maybe, but then property tends to be a lot cheaper in rural areas, so that's surely a choice people who live there make?

And if a ran a business by mail (does anyone still do this?) id expect it to be a cost that i had to pay and i would use one of the private, business providers for post.

And if it was still a problem i couldn't overcome, i wouldn't base such a business so far from a business critical resource.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What about businesses that are location specific. Not exactly viable for a visitor centre for a historic site on Orkney for example to relocate to the central belt is it?

Why would a historic site in Orkney need to use mass-mail outs?

[marinello59]

True maybe, but then property tends to be a lot cheaper in rural areas, so that's surely a choice people who live there make?

And if a ran a business by mail (does anyone still do this?) id expect it to be a cost that i had to pay and i would use one of the private, business providers for post.

And if it was still a problem i couldn't overcome, i wouldn't base such a business so far from a business critical resource.

Maybe we should all just live in the central belt then. :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

Why would a historic site in Orkney need to use mass-mail outs?

Tourism?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Point 1, not everybody chooses where they live and work, there are many factors involved.

Point 2, Royal mail currently has a universal charge regardless of location, if/when that goes should everybody move to London to get the lowest postal costs?

Point 3, Royal mail ain't broke, so doesn't need fixing.

Sorry mate, i see you've already answered many of the points i raised.

Well what do you want, the entire postal policy for a country of 65 million to be dictated to by the odd business located in the Highlands that use mass postal delivery and have such fine margins that a rise in these costs would bankrupt the business? Seriously, do you not think that would be the tail wagging the dog slightly?

And seriously, how many letters do you send that this is going to make such a difference??! Maybe you could switch to email? The world moves on, and post is increasingly not a vital public service for the vast majority of people.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Tourism?

Eh? Do you often go on holiday to places because you randomly get junk mail from a historic site somewhere?

And should policy for the UK be based on how it will affect the vast majority, or a very small minority?

[Hibbyradge]

Tourism?

Watch out. An administration will be along shortly to give you a row for moving off the tgread topic again, and rightly so.

[RyeSloan]

Point 1, not everybody chooses where they live and work, there are many factors involved. Point 2, Royal mail currently has a universal charge regardless of location, if/when that goes should everybody move to London to get the lowest postal costs? Point 3, Royal mail aint broke, so doesn't need fixing.

But Corbyn wants to renationalise the Royal Mail...So if it ain't broke (well it was but the UK taxpayer is now shouldering the huge pension liabilities!) why does it need to be renationalised?

Old world solutions for new world problems is how I see these types of proposals. The world moves on, policies from our political leaders need to do so as well.

[Moulin Yarns]

True maybe, but then property tends to be a lot cheaper in rural areas, so that's surely a choice people who live there make?

And if a ran a business by mail (does anyone still do this?) id expect it to be a cost that i had to pay and i would use one of the private, business providers for post.

And if it was still a problem i couldn't overcome, i wouldn't base such a business so far from a business critical resource.

First point- :faf: within 5 miles of my home http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E1071&radius=5.0&googleAnalyticsChannel=buying

Second point - have you never used Amazon???? Any distance selling involves dispatch and delivery which costs. Buy anything over the internet and it doesn't magically materialise, it needs to be dispatched and delivered.

Third point - They cost more for collection and delivery (particularly in rural areas!!) than the Royal Mail who have a legal duty to uniform mail costs.

[hibsbollah]

First point- :faf: within 5 miles of my home http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E1071&radius=5.0&googleAnalyticsChannel=buying

Second point - have you never used Amazon???? Any distance selling involves dispatch and delivery which costs. Buy anything over the internet and it doesn't magically materialise, it needs to be dispatched and delivered.

Third point - They cost more for collection and delivery (particularly in rural areas!!) than the Royal Mail who have a legal duty to uniform mail costs.

as I understand it, the problem the Royal Mail has it is forced to continue high cost low yield services (like rural routes) which drains it of resources, but at the same time has to watch as competitors from the private sector outbid the RM on the 'prestige' contracts which make the real money. In essence, it's an open playing field with the RM having one hand tied behind its back.

[marinello59]

And should policy for the UK be based on how it will affect the vast majority, or a very small minority?

I'd rather see vibrant communities throughout the entire spread of our nation. The Highlands and Islands have enough problems as it is without making it harder.

[Colr]

Tourism?

Internet

[Moulin Yarns]

as I understand it, the problem the Royal Mail has it is forced to continue high cost low yield services (like rural routes) which drains it of resources, but at the same time has to watch as competitors from the private sector outbid the RM on the 'prestige' contracts which make the real money. In essence, it's an open playing field with the RM having one hand tied behind its back.

Yesterday I collected a parcel from Australia, I had £4.14 VAT to pay, on top of which Royal Mail added an £8 handling charge!! How is that even legal, talk about highway robbery!!!! :cb

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry mate, i see you've already answered many of the points i raised.

Well what do you want, the entire postal policy for a country of 65 million to be dictated to by the odd business located in the Highlands that use mass postal delivery and have such fine margins that a rise in these costs would bankrupt the business? Seriously, do you not think that would be the tail wagging the dog slightly?

And seriously, how many letters do you send that this is going to make such a difference??! Maybe you could switch to email? The world moves on, and post is increasingly not a vital public service for the vast majority of people.

If I am a small producer selling products on the internet, say using Etsy, then the goods need to be posted to the customer, Royal mail is both the most cost effective and convenient method for the majority of small businesses based in rural Scotland.

[RyeSloan]

If I am a small producer selling products on the internet, say using Etsy, then the goods need to be posted to the customer, Royal mail is both the most cost effective and convenient method for the majority of small businesses based in rural Scotland.

The universal service only covers parcels up to 2kg so unless you were only shipping small light items then it is of no use to you.

According to Ofcom Royal Mail currently delivers 99.4% of all letters by volume and 95.9% by value so there is hardly a huge haemorrhaging of its market.

The universal service provisions that the Royal Mail provides are also VAT exempt so it retains a commercial advantage in that respect and Ofcom states that the Royal Mail makes a profit from delivering the universal service

In other words private or public ownership of Royal Mail is neither here nor there in terms of the universal service and it can be and is protected via regulation. I would suggest that effective regulation is a far more efficient way to shape a market than having to own and run the operation (often via a monopoly) itself.

Im open to persuasion (honestly!) but I've still seen no sound reason why the state should own and operate a letter delivery business in 2015.

[Colr]

If I am a small producer selling products on the internet, say using Etsy, then the goods need to be posted to the customer, Royal mail is both the most cost effective and convenient method for the majority of small businesses based in rural Scotland.

Many of your other inputs costs will be lower than other businesses in more central locations. You pay the same rate of business rates on a much lower rent but you wouldn't expect to pay a higher rate to equalise those in areas with higher rates. I suppose that is the arguement on postage, the unvesral rate is being subsidised by other businesses in more central areas whose other input costs (e.g. wages, property and property based taxes are much higher).

It's an argument.

[Moulin Yarns]

Many of your other inputs costs will be lower than other businesses in more central locations. You pay the same rate of business rates on a much lower rent but you wouldn't expect to pay a higher rate to equalise those in areas with higher rates. I suppose that is the arguement on postage, the unvesral rate is being subsidised by other businesses in more central areas whose other input costs (e.g. wages, property and property based taxes are much higher).

It's an argument.

Cost of living is higher than central areas. Raw materials may be as well. Depends what you are making/selling. Final product is only 100g per item though.

Business rates are the same as Princes Street!!!!

[Colr]

Cost of living is higher than central areas. Raw materials may be as well. Depends what you are making/selling. Final product is only 100g per item though.

Business rates are the same as Princes Street!!!!

The rate is the same across the UK the rateable value is local.

Biggest cost of living is property which is much, much cheaper as are wages of staff.

[Moulin Yarns]

The rate is the same across the UK the rateable value is local.

Biggest cost of living is property which is much, much cheaper as are wages of staff.

See my post about rural property prices. I live in an area where the property averaged at over£500k. I also mean rateable value is the same as it is in Princes street

[Beefster]

See my post about rural property prices. I live in an area where the property averaged at over£500k.

The average property price doesn't really mean much if you're comparing apples with pears.

[Hibbyradge]

http://newsthump.com/2015/10/23/jeremy-corbyns-face-appears-in-a-slice-of-toast/

[GreenLake]

First point- :faf: within 5 miles of my home http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E1071&radius=5.0&googleAnalyticsChannel=buying

Second point - have you never used Amazon???? Any distance selling involves dispatch and delivery which costs. Buy anything over the internet and it doesn't magically materialise, it needs to be dispatched and delivered.

Third point - They cost more for collection and delivery (particularly in rural areas!!) than the Royal Mail who have a legal duty to uniform mail costs.

So you get A 10 bedroom house with walled garden and a tennis court, 2 holiday cottages, 2 further cottages, an estate office, a paddock and mixed woodland over just under 40 acres for about £2,000,000. You think that is expensive? :faf:

[Moulin Yarns]

So you get A 10 bedroom house with walled garden and a tennis court, 2 holiday cottages, 2 further cottages, an estate office, a paddock and mixed woodland over just under 40 acres for about £2,000,000. You think that is expensive? :faf:

My post was in response to the claim that rural properties are cheaper than the cities, of properties for sale within 5 miles of me, 9 are above £1m, 10 above £750k, 7 above £500k, 25 above £250k. Rural properties are not less expensive than Urban areas, here are the sales figures for the past year.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detail.html?originalIncode=&outcode=&incode=&country=scotland&locality=&buildType=1&propertyType=3&landRegTenureType=ANY&year=1&radius=0.0&sortOrder=descending&locationIdentifier=REGION%5E1071&referrer=detailPage&columnToSort=PRICE_DESC

[Hibbyradge]

Back on track...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11951866/Exclusive-Jeremy-Corbyns-millionaire-spin-doctor-Seumas-Milne-sent-his-children-to-top-grammar-schools.html

[hibsbollah]

Back on track...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11951866/Exclusive-Jeremy-Corbyns-millionaire-spin-doctor-Seumas-Milne-sent-his-children-to-top-grammar-schools.html

Seamus Milne appointment also being torn apart in the New Statesman and in The Guardian. He is being attacked so forcibly, and with such care and attention being taken to lift his quotes out of context, that it looks like he is being smeared because he's not part of the cosy parliamentary communications office/journalist relationship. The Guardians headline said Milnes appointment is being attacked, leading you to think there's some big revolt going on. Then you read the whole article and you find out the only person to put his name to being outraged by it was, err, Peter Mandelson :aok:

[GreenLake]

My post was in response to the claim that rural properties are cheaper than the cities, of properties for sale within 5 miles of me, 9 are above £1m, 10 above £750k, 7 above £500k, 25 above £250k. Rural properties are not less expensive than Urban areas, here are the sales figures for the past year.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detail.html?originalIncode=&outcode=&incode=&country=scotland&locality=&buildType=1&propertyType=3&landRegTenureType=ANY&year=1&radius=0.0&sortOrder=descending&locationIdentifier=REGION%5E1071&referrer=detailPage&columnToSort=PRICE_DESC

Price per square foot of lot size would be a good comparison.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/corbyn-leadership-challenge-labour-mp-threatens-to-stand-if-may-elections-disappoint?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[Hibbyradge]

It's coming at him from every angle. (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/25/tony-benn-granddaughter-calls-for-expulsion-of-andrew-fisher?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2)

[ronaldo7]

If these numbers are correct, this should give the Labour party the get out clause to follow the SNP, and get rid of Trident.

https://t.co/Gr33ThNl5h

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/oct/29/jeremy-corbyns-pmq-performance-gets-little-national-press-coverage

Corbyn has Cameron on the ropes in PMQs, nobody's watching or reading about it though. I'm surprised an article like this even made it onto the Guardian.

[fulshie]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/oct/29/jeremy-corbyns-pmq-performance-gets-little-national-press-coverage

Corbyn has Cameron on the ropes in PMQs, nobody's watching or reading about it though. I'm surprised an article like this even made it onto the Guardian.To be fair. It wouldn't be hard to put ant PM in his place after the Lords defeat regarding tax credits. I wouldn't think much of him if he hadn't put him under pressure, it was an open goal.

[Beefster]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/oct/29/jeremy-corbyns-pmq-performance-gets-little-national-press-coverage

Corbyn has Cameron on the ropes in PMQs, nobody's watching or reading about it though. I'm surprised an article like this even made it onto the Guardian.

I don't agree with a shedload of his politics but I'm quite liking Corbyn so far. I'd rather have someone in charge that I disagree with but can take at face value than the opposite.

[hibsbollah]

I don't agree with a shedload of his politics but I'm quite liking Corbyn so far. I'd rather have someone in charge that I disagree with but can take at face value than the opposite.

I'm surprised! But then again Corbyn is genuinely untouched by spin doctory, whips and soundbites, so it's probably a breath of fresh air just in that respect. Personally, I'm absolutely delighted with the start he's made on a number of levels.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't agree with a shedload of his politics but I'm quite liking Corbyn so far. I'd rather have someone in charge that I disagree with but can take at face value than the opposite.

Likewise. What stuck in my throat the most from the latest PMQT was the tories jeering when Corbyn read out a question from one of his constituents. It showed the utmost contempt towards the electorate and many saw the mask slip, IMO this will cost them dearly.

[Hibrandenburg]

If these numbers are correct, this should give the Labour party the get out clause to follow the SNP, and get rid of Trident.

https://t.co/Gr33ThNl5h

Would appear that Scottish Labour have now stepped up to the plate but it's rather meaningless unless the party south of the border starts singing from the same song sheet, either that or Scotland becomes independent. :wink:

[Future17]

John McTernan is becoming a real asset for Labour in Scotland. Every time he opens his mouth to have a pop at them, I find myself more likely to support them.

[lucky]

John McTernan is becoming a real asset for Labour in Scotland. Every time he opens his mouth to have a pop at them, I find myself more likely to support them.

The man is grade A tit. Horrible individual who was Murphy's henchman. The short period he worked for Scottish Labour he kicked the Gen Sec out of his office at Labour HQ. He had the total run off the place. He refused to resign when Murphy went but demanded a pay off. He got nothing. He's damaging the party he claims to support. I think he's trying to get kicked out to give him a bigger media platform. He's a serial election loser.

[snooky]

Here's what poor Jeremy & indeed the rest of non-tory MP's are up against.
What a class act they are. :rolleyes:
http://www.thecanary.co/2015/11/05/like-patient-schoolmaster-corbyn-teaches-tories-grown-politics-videos/

[Colr]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/oct/29/jeremy-corbyns-pmq-performance-gets-little-national-press-coverage

Corbyn has Cameron on the ropes in PMQs, nobody's watching or reading about it though. I'm surprised an article like this even made it onto the Guardian.

Fish...barrel

[Colr]

I note Jez was singing the national anthem this time!

[hibsbollah]

I was watching the service this morning. His collar was slightly askew but not a Michael Foot moment for the Daily Mail to get into a froth over.

On the other hand, the prince with the unkempt hipster ginger beard looked a right state. If Corbyn had turned up to the cenotaph with a beard like that...

[Colr]

I was watching the service this morning. His collar was slightly askew but not a Michael Foot moment for the Daily Mail to get into a froth over.

On the other hand, the prince with the unkempt hipster ginger beard looked a right state. If Corbyn had turned up to the cenotaph with a beard like that...

Corbyn seems to have invested in some suits. Next he should aim for a suit that fits him.

[Pretty Boy]

I see he's being slated on Twitter by a few journos etc for not bowing when he laid his wreath. Even though he clearly did bow.

Total lack of respcet using such a service to try and score political points. Far worse than any bow that obviously wasn't low enough for them. Pathetic.

[Colr]

I see he's being slated on Twitter by a few journos etc for not bowing when he laid his wreath. Even though he clearly did bow.

Total lack of respcet using such a service to try and score political points. Far worse than any bow that obviously wasn't low enough for them. Pathetic.

Didn't see a problem with his bow.

[Pretty Boy]

Didn't see a problem with his bow.

Likewise.

[lucky]

Clearly he's got them rattled. The more they attack him the more people defend him. The Tory establishment don't want UK politics moving to the left and just can't stand the thought people are interested in a better society for all rather than a few.

[hibsbollah]

I see he's being slated on Twitter by a few journos etc for not bowing when he laid his wreath. Even though he clearly did bow.

Total lack of respcet using such a service to try and score political points. Far worse than any bow that obviously wasn't low enough for them. Pathetic.

I watched it. He did a silent bow of respect, like any of us would. Is this what our public debate is now reduced to? Depressing as ****.

[Pretty Boy]

I watched it. He did a silent bow of respect, like any of us would. Is this what our public debate is now reduced to? Depressing as ****.

It's really sad and still raging away. He clearly bowed, there's video evidence if it were needed, time to move on. As I said the political point scoring is far worse than anything alleged to have happened (or not to happen I suppose).

[DaveF]

I watched it. He did a silent bow of respect, like any of us would. Is this what our public debate is now reduced to? Depressing as ****.

Yep. By all means criticise Corbyn for his policies but this nonsense is totally out of order.

[Colr]

Yep. By all means criticise Corbyn for his policies but this nonsense is totally out of order.

Although he should be able to pick out a suit that fits him.

Maybe he borrowed it.

[steakbake]

I watched it. He did a silent bow of respect, like any of us would. Is this what our public debate is now reduced to? Depressing as ****.

Totally agree with this, hb.

Depressing is the word. Did he bow enough? Did he look suitably sad? Was his poppy on straight enough? Were his wee shoes shiny?

Im quite a political person but recently, the tone of debate and the now blatant hypocrisy you see all around... every political discussion you read or hear or sometimes even take part in has got all the superficiality you'd find if you were discussing last night's EastEnders. A pantomime full of complete clowns.

[ronaldo7]

The right wing press are really extracting the urine now.:wink:

15628

[Scouse Hibee]

I watched it. He did a silent bow of respect, like any of us would. Is this what our public debate is now reduced to? Depressing as ****.

I watched it with my Dad and he commented to me straight away that his bow looked reluctant compared to others.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think we're turning Japanese, I really think so.

[easty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUubgv3_ps0

[Hibbyradge]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12191670_785228278249489_4413281422388031604_n.png ?oh=82b4efa630226d9dd61d63125e982231&oe=56B71B42

[Scouse Hibee]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12191670_785228278249489_4413281422388031604_n.png ?oh=82b4efa630226d9dd61d63125e982231&oe=56B71B42

Not sure any of that is relevant to those who thought his bow was not right. (Not me by the way)

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure any of that is relevant to those who thought his bow was not right. (Not me by the way)

No, it's not relevant if you put more stock in the angle of a bow than the rest of his exemplary, and discretionary, behaviour.

Otherwise, it is relevant as it shows the extent and depth of his respect to the veterans and to Remembrance day.

I don't think Corbyn is the answer to all the county's ills, primarily because I think as soon as his plans for the economy and taxation start appearing, people will run for cover.

However, some of the criticism he's receiving is bordering on the hysterical and is, quite frankly, ludicrous.

If I could get odds on it, I'd bet that he'll be pilloried for sending the wrong type of Christmas present next month.

It'll probably have the wrong type of bow! (See what I did there?)

[Hibbyradge]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12235076_911655992250092_3699766802805257470_n.jpg ?oh=81e20b44c6a89936dd6573e82f08f23b&oe=56B360F0

[xyz23jc]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12235076_911655992250092_3699766802805257470_n.jpg ?oh=81e20b44c6a89936dd6573e82f08f23b&oe=56B360F0

That is brilliant! http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/top%20marks.gifhttp://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/thumbs%20up.gif:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Like Liam Young, i actually believed The Sun front page was a joke. Its astonishing the level of untruth they stoop to, sickening really. There is no fundamental difference between The Sun and the North Koreans. Except Pyongyang is probably more subtle sometimes.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2015/11/why-sun-so-determined-destroy-jeremy-corbyn-because-he-could-be-prime

[hibsbollah]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/saying-that-jeremy-corbyn-didn-t-bow-during-remembrance-sunday-isn-t-lying-it-s-even-worse-than-that-a6727106.html

I thought this was brilliant.

'If someone told you didnt have a head, you'd probably be do confused you wouldnt be able to challenge it. 'I mean, where do you even begin?...How do you persuade someone you have a head, when theyre looking at you telling you you dont?'

[hibsbollah]

A new low from the Murdoch press,

...tomorrows Sky News headline calling Corbyn 'Jihadi Jez'.

[ronaldo7]

Remember this Labour Leader?

15812

[ronaldo7]

Corbyn starts the new year with a new broom, or a least a few new bristles.

Angela Eagle demoted, after she held Cameron to account at PMQ's recently, while Thornbury gets Defence.

Pat McFadden got the sack though.

Storm in a Tunnocks if you ask me.

[Benny Brazil]

Corbyn starts the new year with a new broom, or a least a few new bristles.

Angela Eagle demoted, after she held Cameron to account at PMQ's recently, while Thornbury gets Defence.

Pat McFadden got the sack though.

Storm in a Tunnocks if you ask me.

Seems to me like the Corbyn era is about to implode - sackings, resignations not good for the party or for politics in general. We need a strong opposition and Labour are failing badly.

[ronaldo7]

Seems to me like the Corbyn era is about to implode - sackings, resignations not good for the party or for politics in general. We need a strong opposition and Labour are failing badly.

His mask is slipping slightly, out with the open debate, in with the, agree with me or you're sacked. I think he'll slowly get rid of most of the Blairites in his shadow cabinet and replace them with his pals. Then the bun fight will begin.

All in all, not good for the people.

It looks like Carmichael's not the only one telling Lies.

https://t.co/V4xSfVwHvE

[fulshie]

Too many sackings and too many resignations for my liking. Corbyn stated at the beginning of his leadership tenure that he believed in people in the Party being free to have their opinions. Looks like that's okay but, not in the shadow cabinet. I thought he was someone who could possibly bring in policies that would shake up our political system with a range of different ideologies but it looks like another Party dictatorship. My way or the highway so to speak. Another 5yrs of Tory Government in 4yrs time I think.

[Colr]

His mask is slipping slightly, out with the open debate, in with the, agree with me or you're sacked. I think he'll slowly get rid of most of the Blairites in his shadow cabinet and replace them with his pals. Then the bun fight will begin.

All in all, not good for the people.

It looks like Carmichael's not the only one telling Lies.

https://t.co/V4xSfVwHvE

He wants to run policy through the NEC. The cabinet will be like the executive implementing policies defined by the board including non-execs like Livingston and the union reps but also the activists who got him elected

[RyeSloan]

Too many sackings and too many resignations for my liking. Corbyn stated at the beginning of his leadership tenure that he believed in people in the Party being free to have their opinions. Looks like that's okay but, not in the shadow cabinet. I thought he was someone who could possibly bring in policies that would shake up our political system with a range of different ideologies but it looks like another Party dictatorship. My way or the highway so to speak. Another 5yrs of Tory Government in 4yrs time I think.

Out with the new politics and in with the old...always the same when the harsh realities of dissent is broadcast nationwide on a daily basis become apparent.

[Colr]

Spend millions of pounds on new nuclear subs then don't put any missiles in them. Genius!!

[marinello59]

Spend millions of pounds on new nuclear subs then don't put any missiles in them. Genius!!

Next they will be building aircraft carriers with no planes to put on them. Hold on ........

[ronaldo7]

Spend millions of pounds on new nuclear subs then don't put any missiles in them. Genius!!

I think Jezza needs to spend some time on the ocean waves. Shirley we could get some dosh back with only having attack subs instead of vanguard class without the missiles. :confused:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/the-equipment/submarines

[ronaldo7]

I wonder why Kezia never stepped in today when one of her own decided to call the FM a liar?

It seems Mr Findlay, that big bruising left winger was too scared to stand up and admit it was him, when asked by the Presiding officer.

It seems the big Bully cowered under his desk and was only outed when the PO decided to hunt him down.

This is his apology. What a pussy.

https://t.co/mQAZOdg8Fv

[lucky]

I wonder why Kezia never stepped in today when one of her own decided to call the FM a liar?

It seems Mr Findlay, that big bruising left winger was too scared to stand up and admit it was him, when asked by the Presiding officer.

It seems the big Bully cowered under his desk and was only outed when the PO decided to hunt him down.

This is his apology. What a pussy.

https://t.co/mQAZOdg8Fv

So you having ago at a working class guy that used unparliamentary language? Then go onto football fans forum and call him a pussy. But as always you post nothing to do with topic.

[ronaldo7]

So you having ago at a working class guy that used unparliamentary language? Then go onto football fans forum and call him a pussy. But as always you post nothing to do with topic.

If you're going to quote my post, at least you could have read it.:greengrin

The subject is Labour party leadership, and my first sentence is to do with your Leader or her lack of leadership when one of her own gets out of control.

The working class lad was a wee bit unruly today it seems, but then decided to slink under his desk in front of school kids watching on at FMQ's, and when the PO asked who shouted out the L word:greengrin he decided to keep schtum. What a star eh.

I thought you might be on to support yer pal Kev. Maybe you should just google "Neil Findlay Liar", and you'll find out all about it.:greengrin

[lucky]

The Labour leadership in question is Corbyn's but even the pathetic attempt in your post to link your comments to the subject is poor. But I'm sure you knew that anyway. It was just another cheap dig with little or no substance to the subject matter. But why mention he was a left winger?

[Moulin Yarns]

Ms Dugdale scored a spectacular own goal yesterday by holding up the 186 pages of the Perth and Kinross Council Budget proposals at FMQ as an example of an SMP council cutting services to the vulnerable

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/fmqs-kezia-dugdale-attacks-scottish-government-over-council-funding-1.923809/fmqs-kezia-dugdale-attacks-scottish-government-over-council-funding-1.923809

Unfortunately for her, PKC budget proposals as approved were very different.

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/12770/A-budget-to-tackle-inequalities--promote-growth

[AndyM_1875]

So you having ago at a working class guy that used unparliamentary language? Then go onto football fans forum and call him a pussy. But as always you post nothing to do with topic.

The trouble with SNP zealots is that they are invariably obsessed with the Labour Party.
I've no idea why as Labour is at the lowest point it's likely to be right now.
This chippiness is quite frankly embarrassing and was seen on Tuesday night when a number of SNP MSPs who had previously backed the Organ Donation Bill voted it down the purely out of spite to the Labour Party who had brought it forward and in particular to Anne McTaggart who had done a lot of good work in bringing the bill forward and Jackie Baillie who closed Labour's submission in favour of it.

[marinello59]

Ms Dugdale scored a spectacular own goal yesterday by holding up the 186 pages of the Perth and Kinross Council Budget proposals at FMQ as an example of an SMP council cutting services to the vulnerable

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/fmqs-kezia-dugdale-attacks-scottish-government-over-council-funding-1.923809/fmqs-kezia-dugdale-attacks-scottish-government-over-council-funding-1.923809

Unfortunately for her, PKC budget proposals as approved were very different.

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/12770/A-budget-to-tackle-inequalities--promote-growth
Your second link there is a press release from Perth and Kinross council helpfully published after Dugdale made her comments. I can't actually see anything refuting her claims, it reads more like the council giving themselves a pat on the back for what they have spent money on.
I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The spectacular own goal claim still needs back up though.

[Moulin Yarns]

Your second link there is a press release from Perth and Kinross council helpfully published after Dugdale made her comments. I can't actually see anything refuting her claims, it reads more like the council giving themselves a pat on the back for what they have spent money on.
I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The spectacular own goal claim still needs back up though.

I actually read most of the Committee report as it affects me, so, if you are really interested. http://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/12750/Special-Council-Meeting---11-February-2016


I don't have a link to the full Kezia speech where she went on about the loss of frontline services, which were not approved.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/perth-kinross/north-inch-golf-course-spared-chop-in-perth-and-kinross-council-budget-1.923988

[ronaldo7]

The Labour leadership in question is Corbyn's but even the pathetic attempt in your post to link your comments to the subject is poor. But I'm sure you knew that anyway. It was just another cheap dig with little or no substance to the subject matter. But why mention he was a left winger?

It must be great for you to have two leaders. One Left wing, and the other, well let's just say the jury's out on her yet.

I thought I'd wrap the Leadership of Dugdale into this thread as she's YOUR leader isn't she? She was very quiet yesterday when the PO asked for the culprit who was slagging off the FM in the chamber to own up. It's just that YOUR Niel sat on his hands. If only he'd taken a leaf out of Kelly's book, he'd have stood up and never sat doon.:greengrin

The reason I mentioned he was a left winger is that you never tire of telling us.:aok:

[lucky]

It must be great for you to have two leaders. One Left wing, and the other, well let's just say the jury's out on her yet.

I thought I'd wrap the Leadership of Dugdale into this thread as she's YOUR leader isn't she? She was very quiet yesterday when the PO asked for the culprit who was slagging off the FM in the chamber to own up. It's just that YOUR Niel sat on his hands. If only he'd taken a leaf out of Kelly's book, he'd have stood up and never sat doon.:greengrin

The reason I mentioned he was a left winger is that you never tire of telling us.:aok:

Neil is his name. I thought the SNP were the party of left in Scotland. But obviously that was exposed in the last week. I don't recall repeatedly stating his politics. But I dare say you will troll through my posts and quote me if I have

[ronaldo7]

It seems the 40 Labour MPs who were marched out of office in May last year were useless anyway. According to one of their own anyway.

https://t.co/JvLsZ7Epop

[ronaldo7]

Nice team to have your back.:greengrin

http://gu.com/p/4hqxd/stw

Everything really is awesome.:agree:

[One Day Soon]

Nice team to have your back.:greengrin

http://gu.com/p/4hqxd/stw

Everything really is awesome.:agree:


Absolutely. We're in SNP Scotland, everything is always awesome!

[ronaldo7]

Absolutely. We're in SNP Scotland, everything is always awesome!

Yer tootin. We're in SNP Scotland.

[One Day Soon]

Yer tootin. We're in SNP Scotland.

Yay! Flags and selfies and helicopters! Everything is awesome!

[marinello59]

Yer tootin. We're in SNP Scotland.

Or as I prefer to call it , Scotland.:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Yay! Flags and selfies and helicopters! Everything is awesome!

Alternatively you could have Big Ben selfies and Disability cuts. That's Labour for you.

[One Day Soon]

Alternatively you could have Big Ben selfies and Disability cuts. That's Labour for you.

Wait, Labour are in power in Westminster? Wow, the SNP really did lock the Tories out of Number 10 just like they promised!

Turn up the volume because "Everything is awesome..."

[allmodcons]

Wait, Labour are in power in Westminster? Wow, the SNP really did lock the Tories out of Number 10 just like they promised!

Turn up the volume because "Everything is awesome..."

I think it would be fair to say that Labour only have themselves to blame for not being in power at Westminster.

[marinello59]

I think it would be fair to say that Labour only have themselves to blame for not being in power at Westminster.

Of course they have.
To be fair though Nicola Sturgeon did make a plea for votes on the grounds that the SNP would keep Cameron out of Downing Street. Like most of us she didn't see the Tories winning a majority.

[allmodcons]

Of course they have.
To be fair though Nicola Sturgeon did make a plea for votes on the grounds that the SNP would keep Cameron out of Downing Street though. Like most of us she didn't see the Tories winning a majority.

The only reason we have a Tory Government is because Labour performed pish in England.

I know the Labour Party like to blame the SNP for this, but that is just a classic diversionary tactic aimed at shifting the blame from what was a shambles of an election for the Labour Party.

The SNP took 56 seats in Scotland, I think it's fair to say the SNP did their bit in trying to keep Cameron out of No. 10.

[marinello59]

The only reason we have a Tory Government is because Labour performed pish in England.

I know the Labour Party like to blame the SNP for this, but that is just a classic diversionary tactic aimed at shifting the blame from what was a shambles of an election for the Labour Party.

The SNP took 56 seats in Scotland, I think it's fair to say the SNP did their bit in trying to keep Cameron out of No. 10.

I'm not arguing with you on this one. :greengrin
Sturgeon did say a vote for the SNP would keep the Tories out. She was wrong because, like the vast majority of us including the Tories themselves, she didn't see an overall majority coming. She was wrong though.

[allmodcons]

I'm not arguing with you on this one. :greengrin
Sturgeon did say a vote for the SNP would keep the Tories out. She was wrong because, like the vast majority of us including the Tories themselves, she didn't see an overall majority coming. She was wrong though.

You and me agreeing again! I'm going for a lie down.

[marinello59]

You and me agreeing again! I'm going for a lie down.

I will do my best to see it doesn't happen again. 😃

[One Day Soon]

I think it would be fair to say that Labour only have themselves to blame for not being in power at Westminster.


I'm getting confused now.

You mean Labour aren't in power at Westminster? So "Big Ben selfies and Disability cuts. That's Labour for you." is meaningless?

Spintastic

[allmodcons]

I'm getting confused now.

You mean Labour aren't in power at Westminster? So "Big Ben selfies and Disability cuts. That's Labour for you." is meaningless?

Spintastic

Looks to me like you're the only one in a spin at the moment. All of your silly little phrases are a far cry from you at the top of your game.

[Colr]

I'm getting confused now.

You mean Labour aren't in power at Westminster? So "Big Ben selfies and Disability cuts. That's Labour for you." is meaningless?

Spintastic

Big Ben selfies?

[JeMeSouviens]

The only reason we have a Tory Government is because Labour performed pish in England.

I know the Labour Party like to blame the SNP for this, but that is just a classic diversionary tactic aimed at shifting the blame from what was a shambles of an election for the Labour Party.

The SNP took 56 seats in Scotland, I think it's fair to say the SNP did their bit in trying to keep Cameron out of No. 10.

They did but actually I think the single biggest factor was Tories taking seats from Lib Dems, who did totally and utterly pish. Of course, if Labour had been able to do better than pish in England that wouldn't have mattered.

btw, is there really any point in the Lib Dems any more? The small l liberal things that used to mark them out as a little different seem to be all but abandoned. Going into a coalition with the Tories has toxified them for the future. There's an argument that they softened the Tory edges in 2010 but without their support there wouldn't have been any Tory edges in 2010.

[JeMeSouviens]

Big Ben selfies?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bb6ua8EIEAE-S38.jpg

[AndyM_1875]

They did but actually I think the single biggest factor was Tories taking seats from Lib Dems, who did totally and utterly pish. Of course, if Labour had been able to do better than pish in England that wouldn't have mattered.

btw, is there really any point in the Lib Dems any more? The small l liberal things that used to mark them out as a little different seem to be all but abandoned. Going into a coalition with the Tories has toxified them for the future. There's an argument that they softened the Tory edges in 2010 but without their support there wouldn't have been any Tory edges in 2010.

That's you and me agreeing again although to be fair the Labour vote in England was pretty much as you were from 2010.

But the collapse of the LibDems especially in their heartlands in the south west and in many English cities was an example of how minority coalition parties get smashed after a term supporting an unpopular Government. It's also been argued that Cornwall turned blue due to the voters there fearing an Ed Milliband government in hock to the SNP.
However it's important they rise again as their 2015 destruction was a bad thing for those of us who like progressive politics and they are is a vitally important buffer in the English shires (which have no Labour tradition) and middle class suburbs to keep malevolent Tories out of office.

[One Day Soon]

Big Ben selfies?

You'll need to ask the original poster. I'm not sure what he was trying to say, perhaps he wasn't either.

[ronaldo7]

Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn from the shadow cabinet for plotting against him. Maybe Corbyn is eventually showing his teeth.

The fall out from brexit continues.

[grunt]

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak 7m7 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/746960896199630848) Just been told half the shadow cabinet to resign this morning.

[Betty Boop]

Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn from the shadow cabinet for plotting against him. Maybe Corbyn is eventually showing his teeth.

The fall out from brexit continues.
BBC reporting half the shadow cabinet expected to resign this morning.

[marinello59]

Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn from the shadow cabinet for plotting against him. Maybe Corbyn is eventually showing his teeth.

The fall out from brexit continues.

Too late. He showed no leadership at all during the Euro vote. What a mess.

[ronaldo7]

BBC reporting half the shadow cabinet expected to resign this morning.

The Tories are in total disarray, and all the right wing of the Labour party want to do is go to war. It beggars belief.

Heidi Alexander now resigned.

[Pretty Boy]

It's a messy way to go about it but Corbyn has to go.

I've said elsewhere I still view myself as a Labour voter currently displaced and I was willing to give Corbyn a change to convince me. Even allowing for the downright nasty media portrayal of him, he has been an unmitigated disaster. Leaders have to lead and he seems wholly incapable of doing that.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a messy way to go about it but Corbyn has to go.

I've said elsewhere I still view myself as a Labour voter currently displaced and I was willing to give Corbyn a change to convince me. Even allowing for the downright nasty media portrayal of him, he has been an unmitigated disaster. Leaders have to lead and he seems wholly incapable of doing that.

As a fairly floating voter, i would never consider voting for him, for what its worth

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn from the shadow cabinet for plotting against him. Maybe Corbyn is eventually showing his teeth.

The fall out from brexit continues.

Good. Let the purge commence.

Corbyn has democratic legitimacy, if disloyal ducks like Benn want to challenge him there are procedures there. But they won't because they know they'd lose an election of the membership.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Good. Let the purge commence.

Corbyn has democratic legitimacy, if disloyal ducks like Benn want to challenge him there are procedures there. But they won't because they know they'd lose an election of the membership.


This isnt a debate i would get hugely involved in.as im not a labour member.

Genuine question - what do you see as the future of labour if corbyn is attacked and then wins again?

[hibsbollah]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/labour-rebels-hope-to-topple-jeremy-corbyn-in-24-hour-blitz-afte/

This was all planned in advance. Check the date.

[ronaldo7]

Good. Let the purge commence.

Corbyn has democratic legitimacy, if disloyal ducks like Benn want to challenge him there are procedures there. But they won't because they know they'd lose an election of the membership.


:agree:

It will take more than the PLP to move him imo.

[R'Albin]

Good. Let the purge commence.

Corbyn has democratic legitimacy, if disloyal ducks like Benn want to challenge him there are procedures there. But they won't because they know they'd lose an election of the membership.

:agree:

The timing of this seems interesting with the Chilcot report only two weeks away and Corbyn previously stating that he will apologise on behalf of Labour for the Iraq war depending on the outcome.

[hibsbollah]

This isnt a debate i would get hugely involved in.as im not a labour member.

Genuine question - what do you see as the future of labour if corbyn is attacked and then wins again?

It's a good question. And it has to be seen in the context of neither of the two main parties having a bedrock of support anymore.

Labour won't last long in its current form regardless of what happens to Corbyn. The traditional voters who have seen their party reclaimed under him won't vote for a return to a Blairrite careerist taking the reins under the guise of 'electability'. And there are clearly a significant bloc of Blairrite MPs who want what they had. Chukka Umunna and Diane Abbott shouldn't, ideologically, belong in the same party. It's just historical accident that they do. So whether there's a 'SDP style' breakaway or a new Left wing party altogether, something will have to give.

The Tories are even more fundamentally divided than Labour, although you wouldn't know it from the media. Schisms all over the place, primarily over Europe, but also free marketeers vs protectionists, social conservatism vs libertarians, rural toffs vs new money, and frankly, old fashioned British Empire racists vs normal people.

I can see a genuine multiparty system within ten years, probably sooner, with at least four parties emerging from the ashes of Labour and Tories. Extremists will benefit, but there will be more genuine choice for the voter.

And of course the whole future of the UK needs to be taken into account; it may be that we are looking at the last ten years of Britain existing as a formal entity AT ALL...in which case the party system would be in a state of revolution and evolution anyway...

In short, i see the eventual dissolution of the Labour Party if Corbyn is challenged by someone in the PLP and he wins again. But it's structurally and politically inevitable and has nothing to do with personality politics.

[Colr]

The idea that people in a party will have the same views is silly. All parties are coalitions few more so than the SNP.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a good question. And it has to be seen in the context of neither of the two main parties having a bedrock of support anymore.

Labour won't last long in its current form regardless of what happens to Corbyn. The traditional voters who have seen their party reclaimed under him won't vote for a return to a Blairrite careerist taking the reins under the guise of 'electability'. And there are clearly a significant bloc of Blairrite MPs who want what they had. Chukka Umunna and Diane Abbott shouldn't, ideologically, belong in the same party. It's just historical accident that they do. So whether there's a 'SDP style' breakaway or a new Left wing party altogether, something will have to give.

The Tories are even more fundamentally divided than Labour, although you wouldn't know it from the media. Schisms all over the place, primarily over Europe, but also free marketeers vs protectionists, social conservatism vs libertarians, rural toffs vs new money, and frankly, old fashioned British Empire racists vs normal people.

I can see a genuine multiparty system within ten years, probably sooner, with at least four parties emerging from the ashes of Labour and Tories. Extremists will benefit, but there will be more genuine choice for the voter.

And of course the whole future of the UK needs to be taken into account; it may be that we are looking at the last ten years of Britain existing as a formal entity AT ALL...in which case the party system would be in a state of revolution and evolution anyway...

In short, i see the eventual dissolution of the Labour Party if Corbyn is challenged by someone in the PLP and he wins again. But it's structurally and politically inevitable and has nothing to do with personality politics.


Thanks for response. That would be my guess too, but was interested whether someone who obviously has more of an interest than me might think.

I suppose the fight will be who retains the labour party.

From an outsiders point of view, i think the blairite social dems shpuld leave amd create nee party, maybe attracting lib dem support

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The idea that people in a party will have the same views is silly. All parties are coalitions few more so than the SNP.

True, bit the snp have an overiding big idea that trumps all ideological considerations.

Im not sure labour do, and their split seems increasingly fundamental

[(((Fergus)))]

Stephen Kinnock resigned. Wasn't Corbyn involved in the coup against his dad trying to replace him with Tony Benn – whose son just got sacked by Corbyn?

[(((Fergus)))]

At this rate, some of the posters on this forum must be in line for a Shadow Cabinet job. A short-lived one, right enough. :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

At this rate, some of the posters on this forum must be in line for a Shadow Cabinet job. A short-lived one, right enough. :greengrin

I'm free ! :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

At this rate, some of the posters on this forum must be in line for a Shadow Cabinet job. A short-lived one, right enough. :greengrin

Only for the sole purpose of gaining a seat in the Scottish Parliament so I can prop up an SNP Government. :wink:

[(((Fergus)))]

Cracking resignation letter from Jess Phillips.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl8yex3WAAAZ0Jx.jpg

[Moulin Yarns]

Cracking resignation letter from Jess Phillips.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl8yex3WAAAZ0Jx.jpg

I didn't believe it was real, but saw it on her twitter account as well.

[Betty Boop]

Cracking resignation letter from Jess Phillips.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl8yex3WAAAZ0Jx.jpg

Pathetic .

[ballengeich]

I didn't believe it was real, but saw it on her twitter account as well.

From this and a couple of other resignation letters that have been published I have the impression that a significant motivation for a number of the rebels is that in addition to any ideological differences, they simply don't believe Corbyn's intellectually up to the job.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Labour membership overwhelmingly votes in a man the vast majority of the PLP didn't want.
PLP now move to overthrow said man, throwing the membership into revolt.

How can they square that circle? Surely a split is a risk. All parties are coalitions, which works better when you have two party politics. In this era of multi-party politics, Labour and the Tories are struggling to stay together, even with first past the post at Westminster.

[Colr]

Labour membership overwhelmingly votes in a man the vast majority of the PLP didn't want.
PLP now move to overthrow said man, throwing the membership into revolt.

How can they square that circle? Surely a split is a risk. All parties are coalitions, which works better when you have two party politics. In this era of multi-party politics, Labour and the Tories are struggling to stay together, even with first past the post at Westminster.

Are there any polls (not that polls are reliable) that show his popularity in the party versus any alternatives?

Do we know he's popular with the members?

[Smartie]

Cracking resignation letter from Jess Phillips.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl8yex3WAAAZ0Jx.jpg

Is it just me or should the Parliamentary Private Secretary in the Shadow Education team not be able to spell the word "mum"?

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it just me or should the Parliamentary Private Secretary in the Shadow Education team not be able to spell the word "mum"?

She answered that on twitter, in B'ham they say Mom (must be the accent!)

In other news

Labour are finding a bit of difficulty in fielding a full team in the Euros!?

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/400/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2016/6/27/d248cca6-2ca3-42fe-be69-a86b3346154f.jpg

[Hibernia&Alba]

Are there any polls (not that polls are reliable) that show his popularity in the party versus any alternatives?

Do we know he's popular with the members?

Only the poll of nine months ago which he won by a landslide in the first ballot.

[hibsbollah]

Are there any polls (not that polls are reliable) that show his popularity in the party versus any alternatives?

Do we know he's popular with the members?

He won 60% of the vote, second place was Burnham with 19%. Total landslide which represents a massive mandate only 9 months ago.

I'm listening to his speech on five live now, absolutely outstanding performance especially in the face of the nonsense going on across from him.

[ronaldo7]

Seemingly Skinner shoot Corbyn by the hand when he came in for the PM's statement to the house, and then duly gave a V sign to his back benches where the ex shadow cabinet were sitting.:greengrin

Labour will also propose a vote of no confidence in Corbyn tonight with a secret ballot tomorrow.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Seemingly Skinner shoot Corbyn by the hand when he came in for the PM's statement to the house, and then duly gave a V sign to his back benches where the ex shadow cabinet were sitting.:greengrin

Labour will also propose a vote of no confidence in Corbyn tonight with a secret ballot tomorrow.

I'm sure the vote would be carried. Then, can Corbyn get enough nominations to stand again? Would he decide to stand again? Then, how will the party membership react? Questions questions :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

I'm sure the vote would be carried. Then, can Corbyn get enough nominations to stand again? Would he decide to stand again? Then, how will the party membership react? Questions questions :greengrin
He'll stand again and win.

[marinello59]

He'll stand again and win.

Why would he do that? Wouldn't he be better walking away for the good of the party?

[ronaldo7]

I'm sure the vote would be carried. Then, can Corbyn get enough nominations to stand again? Would he decide to stand again? Then, how will the party membership react? Questions questions :greengrin


He'll stand again and win.

:agree:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Why would he do that? Wouldn't he be better walking away for the good of the party?

He can legitimately say he's the elected leader and has a huge mandate from the membership.

[ronaldo7]

Why would he do that? Wouldn't he be better walking away for the good of the party?

Why should he, why don't the others walk away?

[ronaldo7]

The paymasters speak. Time for the rebellious ones to sit down on the back benches.

https://t.co/Ikhy9e17KD

[High-On-Hibs]

Why would he do that? Wouldn't he be better walking away for the good of the party?

Perhaps it would be good for the party. But would it be good for the country? The 2 main political parties in the UK shaping up their policies the same way because they're preaching to the same choir.

Surely the purpose of opposition is to offer an alternative and try to convince the electorate that their ideas are better than the status quo, rather than joining the status quo and offering the same manifesto as the opposition?

Labour's problem isn't where their leader stands. Labours problem is that there is too many career politicians in their party that don't agree with the leader so aren't making a strong enough case for their leaders views.

[Pretty Boy]

Why would he do that? Wouldn't he be better walking away for the good of the party?

It seems a lot of Labour members will be perfectly happy to be in the wilderness for years as long as their 'principles' are intact. All very noble but crazy and ultimately of no good to either their membership or the wider British public who look to them for a voice.

[marinello59]

Perhaps it would be good for the party. But would it be good for the country? The 2 main political parties in the UK shaping up their policies the same way because they're preaching to the same choir.

Surely the purpose of opposition is to offer an alternative and try to convince the electorate that their ideas are better than the status quo, rather than joining the status quo and offering the same manifesto as the opposition?

Labour's problem isn't where their leader stands. Labours problem is that there is too many career politicians in their party that don't agree with the leader so aren't making a strong enough case for their leaders views.

Having a leader of the opposition who has no leadership skills isn't really good for the country. His performance during the referundum campaign was simply woeful. If Corbyn wants to go on playing st sixth form politics and the party are willing to indulge him then their electoral future really is going into be bleak.

[Pretty Boy]

Perhaps it would be good for the party. But would it be good for the country? The 2 main political parties in the UK shaping up their policies the same way because they're preaching to the same choir.

Surely the purpose of opposition is to offer an alternative and try to convince the electorate that their ideas are better than the status quo, rather than joining the status quo and offering the same manifesto as the opposition?

Labour's problem isn't where their leader stands. Labours problem is that there is too many career politicians in their party that don't agree with the leader so aren't making a strong enough case for their leaders views.

Labour under Miliband offered a clear alternative to Camerons Tories, there were many fundementally left wing policies on the last Labour manifesto.

It was rejected by the UK public.

[High-On-Hibs]

Having a leader of the opposition who has no leadership skills isn't really good for the country. His performance during the referundum campaign was simply woeful. If Corbyn wants to go on playing st sixth form politics and the party are willing to indulge him then their electoral future really is going into be bleak.

You're saying he has no leadership skills. But how would you define leadership skills in the context of UK politics? Another faceless mannequin with a suit and tie? Corbyn is something different. The establishment don't like that and are desperate to replace him with one of their own as soon as possible. I'm no Labour fan boy by any means, but I respect Corbyn for hanging in there.

He isn't the problem IMO. The problem is that he needs MPs in his party that actually represent his views. Because he currently doesn't, his arguments are not reaching the electorate anywhere near as effectively as they should be.

[Hibbyradge]

You're saying he has no leadership skills. But how would you define leadership skills in the context of UK politics? Another faceless mannequin with a suit and tie? Corbyn is something different. The establishment don't like that and are desperate to replace him with one of their own as soon as possible. I'm no Labour fan boy by any means, but I respect Corbyn for hanging in there.

He isn't the problem IMO. The problem is that he needs MPs in his party that actually represent his views. Because he currently doesn't, his arguments are not reaching the electorate anywhere near as effectively as they should be.

Labour needs a leader who can win over people who voted Tory last time.

Corbyn is obviously not that man.

[High-On-Hibs]

Labour needs a leader who can win over people who voted Tory last time.

Corbyn is obviously not that man.

He can only win them over by putting a stronger case out there on his own views. The only way he can get his message out there is with a shadow cabinet and front bench that he can trust to do the job.

Replacing him with a torite will not win voters over. Why on earth would they vote Labour over Conservative, based on nothing more than the colour of their tie? They wouldn't.

He needs to stand strong on his alternative vision for the country and build a stronger case around those believes. If Labour simply lurch themselves to the right in an attempt to scoop up Conservative voters, then democracy is effectively over in the UK.

[Hibbyradge]

He can only win them over by putting a stronger case out there on his own views. The only way he can get his message out there is with a shadow cabinet and front bench that he can trust to do the job.

Replacing him with a torite will not win voters over. Why on earth would they vote Labour over Conservative, based on nothing more than the colour of their tie? They wouldn't.

He needs to stand strong on his alternative vision for the country and build a stronger case around those believes. If Labour simply lurch themselves to the right in an attempt to scoop up Conservative voters, then democracy is effectively over in the UK.

The Herald has a poll which reports that if Corbyn walked,support for the Labour Party would rise by 12 points.

He's not the man for the job.

There must be another pseudo trot that the £3 membership hordes can find who would do better than that dud.

[High-On-Hibs]

The Herald has a poll which reports that if Corbyn walked,support for the Labour Party would rise by 12 points.

He's not the man for the job.

There must be another pseudo trot that the £3 membership hordes can find who would do better than that dud.

I would take polls like that with a good old pinch of salt to be honest. The polls don't even state who would replace him and I don't really buy into the "anyone but Corbyn" would be good for labour argument.

I respect your view point, but I just can't find myself agreeing with it. The UK needs an alternative to the Conservative Party, not a Conservative Two replacement.

[Hibbyradge]

[QUOTE=High-On-Hibs;4744154]I would take polls like that with a good old pinch of salt to be honest. The polls don't even state who would replace him and I don't really buy into the "anyone but Corbyn" would be good for labour argument.

I respect your view point, but I just can't find myself agreeing with it. The UK needs an alternative to the Conservative Party, not a Conservative Two replacement.[/QUOT

Correct, but Corbyn is not the right man.

You may not agree with "anyone but Corbyn" but "anyone at all" isn't the answer either.

How much stock are you giving the pro indy polls, if you're dismissing the Herald poll about Corbyn?

[Arch Stanton]

Bit of an aside, maybe, but I've seen a few confident statements that Corbyn could face a general election in the next couple of months and I wonder what the thinking is behind that?

Anyway, I just have a feeling that Corbyn thinks the tories will tank because of the current fiasco and that labour could win on a Marxist/Leninist agenda if it so wished. (Not that I think he will BTW, just saying).

[High-On-Hibs]

[QUOTE=High-On-Hibs;4744154]I would take polls like that with a good old pinch of salt to be honest. The polls don't even state who would replace him and I don't really buy into the "anyone but Corbyn" would be good for labour argument.

I respect your view point, but I just can't find myself agreeing with it. The UK needs an alternative to the Conservative Party, not a Conservative Two replacement.[/QUOT

Correct, but Corbyn is not the right man.

You may not agree with "anyone but Corbyn" but "anyone at all" isn't the answer either.

How much stock are you giving the pro indy polls, if you're dismissing the Herald poll about Corbyn?

The quality of polling regarding Scottish matters has consistently been superior to the polling south of the border. However, do keep in mind that it was a Herold poll that had YES at 54%. :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

Bit of an aside, maybe, but I've seen a few confident statements that Corbyn could face a general election in the next couple of months and I wonder what the thinking is behind that?

Anyway, I just have a feeling that Corbyn thinks the tories will tank because of the current fiasco and that labour could win on a Marxist/Leninist agenda if it so wished. (Not that I think he will BTW, just saying).

Where did the myth even come from that Corbyn had a Marxist/Leninist agenda? If seems that if you're anything other than hard-right in UK politics, your some sort of dangerous Stalinist that needs to be stamped out. I don't consider Corbyn to be far left. He's certainly slightly more left that soft left, but he's not far-left in my opinion.

[hibsbollah]

Labour under Miliband offered a clear alternative to Camerons Tories, there were many fundementally left wing policies on the last Labour manifesto.

It was rejected by the UK public.

Milibands manifesto really wasn't a left wing agenda at all. 'Red Ed' was a myth. No public ownership, no significant tax on the top earners. And it was rejected by the UK public because Ed was genuinely terrible.

[ronaldo7]

Bit of an aside, maybe, but I've seen a few confident statements that Corbyn could face a general election in the next couple of months and I wonder what the thinking is behind that?

Anyway, I just have a feeling that Corbyn thinks the tories will tank because of the current fiasco and that labour could win on a Marxist/Leninist agenda if it so wished. (Not that I think he will BTW, just saying).

Fixed term parliament act could see that de bunked.

[Pretty Boy]

Milibands manifesto really wasn't a left wing agenda at all. 'Red Ed' was a myth. No public ownership, no significant tax on the top earners. And it was rejected by the UK public because Ed was genuinely terrible.
I didn't say it was a wholly left wing manifesto but there were elements that saw a deviation in direction from the Brown/Blair years. A case that was often put forward by Labour supporters when trashing the left wing pretensions of the SNP it's worth noting.

Sad as it is for me to accept personally radically left wing policies just don't win elections in Britain now, if they ever did. Whilst a return to the mid 90s - mid 00s New Labour era isn't appealing in the slightest it's not much worse than a completely unelectable Labour party failing to provide strong opposition or palatable alternative.

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[Arch Stanton]

Where did the myth even come from that Corbyn had a Marxist/Leninist agenda? If seems that if you're anything other than hard-right in UK politics, your some sort of dangerous Stalinist that needs to be stamped out. I don't consider Corbyn to be far left. He's certainly slightly more left that soft left, but he's not far-left in my opinion.

"Where did the myth even come from that Corbyn had a Marxist/Leninist agenda? "

The myth didn't come from anywhere - I merely surmised that, in the circumstances, he could perhaps win even with an extremist left manifesto.

[hibsbollah]

I didn't say it was a wholly left wing manifesto but there were elements that saw a deviation in direction from the Brown/Blair years. A case that was often put forward by Labour supporters when trashing the left wing pretensions of the SNP it's worth noting.

Sad as it is for me to accept personally radically left wing policies just don't win elections in Britain now, if they ever did. Whilst a return to the mid 90s - mid 00s New Labour era isn't appealing in the slightest it's not much worse than a completely unelectable Labour party failing to provide strong opposition or palatable alternative.

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I understand why you think that, i dont blame you at all, and since a genuinely progressive Labour Govt hasn't been elected since 1945 there's no empirical evidence to prove you wrong. I prefer to think its more unlikely than impossible.

[Mibbes Aye]

I understand why you think that, i dont blame you at all, and since a genuinely progressive Labour Govt hasn't been elected since 1945 there's no empirical evidence to prove you wrong. I prefer to think its more unlikely than impossible.

I can't agree with that.

The 1974-79 administration legislated against racial and sexual discrimination, introduced protection for workers through the Health and Safety at Work Act and protection for consumers in law.

It brought in legislation to protect pregnant women's employment rights, it extended the scope of welfare support for disabled people and it put more responsibility on local government to deal with homelessness. And a whole host more, whilst struggling to deal with an abysmal economic situation.

As for the Blair years, it's very fashionable and easy to slate New Labour but in terms of progressive policies and outcomes there was no shortage from equalising the age of consent to the national minimum wage to big, big reductions in child and pensioner poverty and a whole host more.

In amongst the jibes about Labour's economic management in the 70s or the culture of spin and the Iraq invasion under Blair it's easy to gloss over the fact that both administrations made some serious big-ticket moves to address inequality and discrimination.

[RyeSloan]

Where did the myth even come from that Corbyn had a Marxist/Leninist agenda? If seems that if you're anything other than hard-right in UK politics, your some sort of dangerous Stalinist that needs to be stamped out. I don't consider Corbyn to be far left. He's certainly slightly more left that soft left, but he's not far-left in my opinion.

Left enough I would say, renationalisation of railways, education and rent controls mixed in with some 'people QE' are plenty left. Add in his previous support of that run away success story of Venezuela and you get the idea as to why Corbyn is not going to win any election. And that's before you get to the soft stuff like having zero presence nor any sound of authority when he speaks, a leader he is not.

You also seem to have a rather rose tinted view of Corbyn. His Corbynistas have been busy building his power base on the party for exactly this type of situation and the resignation letter alludes to a few other moves Corbyn and his team have been up to.

Fascinating stuff though watching the power struggle play out in public now...if he suffers a vote of no confidence and still goes for reelection we really could see the party split.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Left enough I would say, renationalisation of railways, education and rent controls mixed in with some 'people QE' are plenty left. Add in his previous support of that run away success story of Venezuela and you get the idea as to why Corbyn is not going to win any election. And that's before you get to the soft stuff like having zero presence nor any sound of authority when he speaks, a leader he is not.

You also seem to have a rather rose tinted view of Corbyn. His Corbynistas have been busy building his power base on the party for exactly this type of situation and the resignation letter alludes to a few other moves Corbyn and his team have been up to.

Fascinating stuff though watching the power struggle play out in public now...if he suffers a vote of no confidence and still goes for reelection we really could see the party split.

Moderate and sensible. The privatisation of the railways, for example, is a scandal. They still receive huge state subsidies; indeed couldn't survive without them. The shareholders take the profits and the taxpayer pumps billions in. The whoe thing is a stitch up. We need a massive house building project, as we have a million people in the UK in temporary accommodation. Britain needs a democratic socialist voice to challenge the neo-liberal agenda that has dominated for so long and done great damage. Globalisation has created a split society of winners and losers which makes make people frightened and angry, as last week's referendum showed.

[RyeSloan]

Moderate and sensible. The privatisation of the railways, for example, is a scandal. They still receive huge state subsidies; indeed couldn't survive without them. The shareholders take the profits and the taxpayer pumps billions in. The whoe thing is a stitch up. We need a massive house building project, as we have a million people in the UK in temporary accommodation. Britain needs a democratic socialist voice to challenge the neo-liberal agenda that has dominated for so long and done great damage. Globalisation has created a split society of winners and losers which makes make people frightened and angry, as last week's referendum showed.

Ahh ok so we will reverse globalisation then and implement socialist policies that have been proven to work so effectively time and again?

And once again you suggest that we have a neo-liberal agenda. You can repeat that all you want but it's not true. Government and central bank interference in the workings of the market has never been greater...and we can see how well that's worked out, yet you want more government interference (as long as it's the right colour of government of course)?

And as for house building...the answer is relatively straight forward. Reduce planning hurdles and open up the green belt and you would soon see land prices go down, house building go up and affordability increased. Yet instead we have Government cash give aways and people demanding rent controls...all very neo liberal (not).

[Moulin Yarns]

Looks like a pensioner USA golfer is being touted to lead the Labour Party :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

Andy "Slaughter". How fitting.